{"id":303123,"date":"2014-07-15T11:00:00","date_gmt":"2014-07-15T15:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/naked-and-unashamed\/"},"modified":"2014-07-15T11:00:00","modified_gmt":"2014-07-15T15:00:00","slug":"naked-and-unashamed","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/naked-and-unashamed\/","title":{"rendered":"Naked and Unashamed"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>Are you good at resolving conflict? Marital researcher Scott Stanley emphasizes that a couple&#8217;s ability to work through conflict together is determinative of a couple&#8217;s success. But commitment, he says, must be the foundation. Adam and Eve were naked and unashamed, and that safety and security is what all couples long for. To achieve that, husbands and wives must be committed to God first, then to each other.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Marital researcher Scott Stanley emphasizes that a couple&#8217;s ability to work through conflict together is determinative of a couple&#8217;s success. But commitment, he says, must be the foundation.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2014-07-15.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:","filesize":"25.57M","filesize_raw":"26810777","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2809],"tags":[5201,4086,5376,5377],"podcast_series":[8023],"cwp_profile":[3151],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-303123","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-commitment","tag-cohabitation","tag-commitment","tag-harder-to-break-up","tag-marital-contentment","podcast_series-a-lasting-promise","cwp_profile-scott-stanley","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/303123\/naked-and-unashamed","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/303123\/naked-and-unashamed","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"TKLhD4baOv\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/naked-and-unashamed\/\">Naked and Unashamed<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/naked-and-unashamed\/embed\/#?secret=TKLhD4baOv\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Naked and Unashamed&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"TKLhD4baOv\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2014-07-15.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2014-07-15.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Some people think that if forgiveness has been offered and received in a marriage relationship, then trust should automatically be restored. Scott Stanley says that\u2019s not the case. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Scott:<\/strong> In Scripture, it\u2019s always clear\u2014reconciliation is hinged to responsibility. So, I can forgive somebody; but I can still withhold reconciliation. If they\u2019re not changing\u2014if they\u2019re not taking responsibility and it\u2019s a serious behavior\u2014in fact, you see this in Scripture\u20141 Corinthians 5 is a great example of it\u2014it may even be wise for me to withhold the relationship until this person changes. But that doesn\u2019t mean I\u2019m running around trying to hurt them back. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Tuesday, July 15<sup>th<\/sup>. Our host is the President of FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, Dennis Rainey, and I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We\u2019ll talk today about what the Bible has to say about real forgiveness and about reconciliation. Stay tuned.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>1:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. Before we came in here, I was talking with our guest today. I was telling him about the first time I ever heard him on another radio program. You ought to introduce him, but I should tell you the story because I don\u2019t know that I\u2019ve ever told you the story.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Well, Scott Stanley\u2019s here. He is the author of <em>A Lasting Promise<\/em>. He\u2019s a researcher and co-directs the Center for Marital and Family Relationships at the University of Denver. Scott, welcome back. I can\u2019t wait to hear what so pierced Bob\u2019s mind so many years ago. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Scott:<\/strong> Me, too. I\u2019m very curious. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Well, back in\u2014it was actually 1996\u2014I remember it very clearly. You and I were together in Seattle, Washington, getting ready to speak at one of our <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em><sup>\u00ae<\/sup> marriage getaways up there.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I was driving through the streets of Seattle on my way to the convention center, where the event was being held. I had <em>Focus on the Family<\/em><sup>\u00ae<\/sup> on. Scott, you were a guest with Gary Smalley on <em>Focus on the Family<\/em>. Do you remember this?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Scott:<\/strong> Yes, mid-90\u2019s. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>2:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I\u2019m listening; and I hear Gary Smalley say to Dr. Dobson\u2014he says, \u201cWhat Scott has discovered\u2014if you do this one thing in your marriage, it will <em>revolutionize<\/em> your marriage.\u201d I\u2019m thinking to myself: \u201cI\u2019m about to speak on marriage\u2014I better know what the one thing is\u201d; right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> So, do you remember what the one thing is?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Scott:<\/strong> I don\u2019t remember what the one thing is. [Laughter] I don\u2019t remember a lot of one things! [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Here\u2019s what you said\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Scott:<\/strong> Wonderful.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014and, you know what? I thought\u2014first, I thought, \u201cThat\u2019s right!\u201d And then I thought, \u201cWell, duh,\u201d\u2014I mean no offense. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Scott:<\/strong> No.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> But a lot of what you find in the research you do\u2014you look at the research and say, \u201cWell, duh!\u201d Don\u2019t you?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Scott:<\/strong> I started to write a paper once\u2014I didn\u2019t finish it, but it was going to be on this very point\u2014called \u201cDuh Findings\u201d [Laughter] because a lot of the really good stuff\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> It\u2019s like discovering gravity. It\u2019s there.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Scott:<\/strong> That\u2019s right; that\u2019s right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> So, here\u2019s what you said. You said that: \u201cA couple\u2019s ability to work through conflict together and resolve conflict is the number one predictor of long-term marital success.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>3:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Scott:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And I thought to myself, \u201cWell, duh.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Scott:<\/strong> Duh.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> If we can, as a couple, when we\u2019re on different pages, come together and say, \u201cOkay, how can we deal with our differences?\u201d that will go a long way to making for a great marriage.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Scott:<\/strong> Absolutely it will go a long way! I would actually say two things now. We talked about commitment\u2014commitment, communication\/conflict\u2014that\u2019s where it\u2019s at in terms of research. You look in those two dimensions and you know a lot about how a marriage is going to go.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> If a couple is committed to one another\u2014that\u2019s healthy and that\u2019s in place\u2014and if they can communicate and resolve conflict, there in a pretty good place.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Scott:<\/strong> Big stuff.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And back to the \u201cduh\u201d factor for just a moment. It\u2019s kind of a \u201cduh\u201d because the Bible begins with the story of a marriage. When He wraps this whole thing up and packages it for us to be able to digest it, He says, \u201cFor this cause a man shall leave his father and mother.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>4:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe talked about this earlier\u2014\u201cand he shall cleave to his wife.\u201d That\u2019s commitment. \u201cAnd they shall become one\u201d\u2014one flesh. Then the passage concludes with \u201cand the man and his wife were both naked and they were not ashamed.\u201d That\u2019s really the progression of how a marriage was designed to progress\u2014from leaving to cleaving \/ commitment, to becoming one, and then getting on with this process of being completely transparent and honest with another imperfect person and not being ashamed.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYet, as we do this, we\u2019re going to hurt each other. That points out the reason why we <em>must <\/em>resolve our conflicts.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Scott:<\/strong> That passage \/ that verse\u2014\u201cbeing naked and unashamed\u201d\u2014I think is actually the most hopeful line in all of Scripture about marriage. You think about all of the changes in marriage, and divorce, and the fragility about marriage in our culture. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>5:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat I think is so powerful about that\u2014and is the best hope for marriage\u2014is people want that. They want what\u2019s expressed in that one line. They want that kind of safety\u2014emotional safety\u2014in their relationship, where they can be connected and be who they are. What you see with Adam and Eve is that they have that\u2014whatever all that means, you know, at that point in the story. Then you can watch, in a pretty powerful way, how it falls apart in Genesis 3, in terms of what happens to Adam and Eve.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe all live in that post-Fall\u2014sort of post-Genesis 3\u2014world, where we want this; but it is a challenge to achieve that in marriage. But it is what we want, deep in our heart.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> If we want that transparency, Scripture really teaches that marriage is a cord of three strands.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Scott:<\/strong> Yes. What I like about that concept\u2014I don\u2019t know how many people tend to think about that, but you see that in Ecclesiastes\u2014I think that is an image of the idea that marriage, fundamentally, involves me, you, and God.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>6:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt\u2019s three of us being woven together in terms of what God wants to do in marriage. I think it makes a very powerful sort of bond when you really have that together, as a couple.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> You research people from all walks of life\u2014some who have a relationship with God and others who don\u2019t. Do you see a marked difference between marriages and families who know God\u2014walk with Him, experience Him, and talk with Him daily\u2014and those who don\u2019t?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Scott:<\/strong> Let me take apart the two parts of your sentence because the answer to your question lies in it. Do I see a difference between those who know God or say they know God and others? I don\u2019t see a big difference there. The walking part is where the big difference comes in. We all know\u2014you see the statistics that come up a lot in the church\u2014about people in the church having just about as much divorce as those outside the church\u2014and there are controversies about that data.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>7:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat\u2019s clear in the research\u2014just saying you\u2019re a believer, or a Christian, or nominally involved in something like that\u2014you see in the research a slight edge for those marriages. You see a slight edge for people who are\u2014researchers call it \u201creligious.\u201d They don\u2019t usually measure clearly things about faith\u2014and Christianity and stuff\u2014but there\u2019s a slight edge there.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhere the big edge comes is when you see two people who are in some way\u2014and there can be many ways to do this\u2014practicing their faith together. That\u2019s where the big edge comes. I can\u2019t tell you exactly how big it is; but if you get closer to measuring the walking instead of the talking, then you\u2019ve got some power in terms of how a marriage is going to go.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Yes. It seems to me, today, that that\u2019s where couples are missing it. They\u2019re beginning the marriage relationship and they\u2019re not inviting the One into the marriage who actually created the blueprints and who is the One who wants to walk with them through all of the experiences, all the issues, all the barriers, all the hard times they\u2019re going to face in their marriage relationship.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>8:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> At the same time, you say in the book that it takes more than simply having a healthy relationship with God for your marriage to work out. So, two people who say, \u201cAs long as we love God, we\u2019re going to do fine in marriage,\u201d it would say, \u201cNot necessarily.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Scott:<\/strong> Yes. And, you know, in the book, we have a lot of very specific skills and strategies. That\u2019s intentional because I think we all agree\u2014you can have somebody who\u2019s exactly in the right place in their heart with God\u2014you can have, in the best case, two people who are in just the right place. That doesn\u2019t mean they know what to do. That doesn\u2019t mean they know how to handle a conflict, how to set a goal, how to clarify expectations, how to invest or sacrifice for one another. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNone of that necessarily comes. In fact, I would say that, in today\u2019s culture and society, so many people grow up now in homes that are broken or where their parents, maybe, never even married on one side\u2014you know, one was just taken off.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>9:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tPeople have come from such diverse backgrounds and so many different forms of broken homes or difficult homes now that you can\u2019t assume people know much of anything about how to do a healthy relationship, even if their heart is perfectly in the right place about wanting it and being willing to do it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> One of the things you talk about in your book is what\u2019s called \u201cThe Crazy Ladder.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Scott:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> It\u2019s when things begin to escalate. Explain what you mean, to our listeners, by that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Scott:<\/strong> This is one of my favorite new word pictures about thinking about something that we\u2019ve studied for a long time in research. Many studies show that couples that escalate easily and have trouble getting it back wound down are in marriages that are going to struggle a lot more and have more difficulties.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Now, when you say \u201cescalate,\u201d you\u2019re talking about ramping up the emotions.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Scott:<\/strong> Yes; and I mean the negative, negative, negative back and forth\u2014rising emotional intensity. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>10:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tUsually that leads to things being said that are reckless. It says in Proverbs: \u201cReckless words pierce like a sword.\u201d It\u2019s in those moments that people say some <em>very<\/em> damaging things, either about commitment or about the character of the other.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think of it as\u2014when a couple has trouble with escalation, you can think about it as a kind of \u201ccrazy ladder.\u201d Here\u2019s the nature of ladders\u2014this is what I love about the metaphor\u2014it is way easier to go up than it is to come down. You can go up faster than you can come down. The further up you go\u2014the less stable it is. It\u2019s all\u2014you know, the further you go\u2014the more <em>dangerous<\/em> it is.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat a lot of couples do is\u2014they go up this ladder fast. Very often, they get wrung out, if you will. They get up too high too fast. Now it\u2019s hard to get back down. You\u2019re unstable. You\u2019ve got to walk it back down. Your kids are seeing this, and they\u2019re damaged by seeing this regularly. It\u2019s not good for the children. So, I like for people to think about getting off the crazy ladder\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>11:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014which means not going up as fast in the first place and learning some ways to get back down and rein it back in when you do get up too far.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> What do you do if you\u2019re finding yourself beginning to climb a ladder rather quickly? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Scott:<\/strong> Two strategies: one strategy to really handling this is getting off the ladder sooner so that you\u2019re only like a few rungs up instead of 16 rungs up.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Is that: \u201cDon\u2019t let the sun go down in your anger,\u201d\u2014is that it?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Scott:<\/strong> It\u2019s talking to each other\u2014that\u2019s what that passage talks about. It\u2019s \u201ca gentle answer turns away wrath.\u201d It\u2019s all of these kinds of basic ideas. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat it looks like is\u2014you start to escalate\u2014maybe one of you says something with a little too much edge\u2014for a really skilled couple or a couple that is safe\u2014you\u2019ll see things like this happen. One says something negative and the other says\u2014let\u2019s say they criticized the other about being kind of compulsive, you know: \u201cWhy do you do that that way?! That dish doesn\u2019t really have to go in <em>that<\/em> way. It could go in this way.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>12:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe other could say: \u201cThere you go again!\u2014just really riding me about this, as if this is the right way to do it!\u201d You know\u2014then off the couple goes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tA couple that\u2019s more aware of the danger of escalation can get out of that faster because one might say: \u201cYou know\u2014I\u2019m sorry. I shouldn\u2019t have said anything. I don\u2019t know why I\u2019m picking on you about that. Please forgive me for that. Just let it go.\u201d That\u2019s de-escalating rapidly by just softening and making something more positive happen.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You talk in here about the whole idea of negative interpretation, which is really where you assume the worst about everything that\u2019s going on; right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Scott:<\/strong> That\u2019s a big thing that fuels escalation\u2014so it\u2019s a really added problem. So not only maybe we\u2019re not so skilled at controlling the anger and the frustration, but part of what really feeds that is that it\u2019s very easy to take a negative view. For example, one picks on the other for how they load the dishwasher and the dishes. The other makes a big deal out of it. The more skillful couple can get out of that faster by softening somehow. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>13:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut let\u2019s say it really escalates for a couple. Part of the escalation is, maybe, one starts to take it personally that \u201cYou won\u2019t load the dishwasher the way I think it should be loaded.\u201d The other strategy is you\u2019ve got to learn a way, as a couple, to take a time out. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou can use the word \u201ctime out.\u201d You can use some common terms that people use today like \u201cslow the roll,\u201d \u201cpump your brakes,\u201d\u2014whatever it is\u2014something where, as a couple, you have a way to signal: \u201cWe\u2019re getting a little \u2018out there\u2019 right now. Let\u2019s rein it in.\u201d The power of this\u2014this strategy works best if the two of you agree to use it so there\u2019s a signal that you both understand: \u201cLet\u2019s take a time out. Let\u2019s chill a bit.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tEven, as an individual, you can do this\u2014you know: \u201cHey, we\u2019re getting pretty upset right now. Why don\u2019t we sort of wind this back down, and then we\u2019ll come back and talk what we need to talk about in a couple of hours.\u201d That\u2019s very hard to do but very simple. If you really try to learn to do that, you can save your marriage a lot of heartache.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> You really can\u2019t talk about escalating emotions and conflict without ultimately moving to the subject of forgiveness. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>14:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWould you explain what forgiveness is and what you\u2019ve learned about it through your research?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Scott:<\/strong> Forgiveness\u2014interesting, to me\u2014I mean, there\u2019s a lot of research now on forgiveness, in the last 15 years or so, actually, in terms of researchers becoming very interested in the concept. Of course, historically, it\u2019s mostly religious people and mostly Christians. It\u2019s talked about a lot in Christian theology. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe essence of forgiveness is giving up your perceived right to get even. If you feel like this person has done something that may by, objectively, very clearly true. They\u2019ve done something that hurt you. It could be little or it could be big. There are examples of both that we talk about very clearly in the book. The essence of a problem with forgiveness is the sense of \u201cNow you owe me because of that.\u201d Jesus, when He talks about forgiveness, uses\u2014or the Greek word we have in the New Testament that records His teaching is\u2014<em>apeimi<\/em>.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>15:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt really means to remit\u2014to give up \/ to refrain from exacting punishment. That\u2019s what forgiveness is. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tPart of where we get in trouble in our relationships is that it\u2019s hard enough to forgive well when you understand forgiveness really clearly. It\u2019s virtually <em>impossible<\/em> when you start to layer in concepts that really aren\u2019t related to exactly what forgiveness is. For example, we start to think forgiveness is forgetting: \u201cWell, you still remember so you haven\u2019t really forgiven me.\u201d Well, if you\u2019ve really been hurt deeply, you\u2019re not going to forget. So forgetting is not part of forgiveness.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tA lot of people fear that \u201cIf I forgive my partner\u2014big or small \/ whatever it is\u2014I\u2019m going to convey to them that their behavior was just fine.\u201d That\u2019s not what forgiveness is either. You can forgive somebody\u2014you can decide you\u2019re not going to hold them one down. You\u2019re not going to try to get even\u2014and, at the same time, have them still be responsible for their behavior\u2014be responsible for change\u2014need to be, maybe, committed to some big changes in the relationship\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>16:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014part of the reason why it\u2019s important to separate those out. It\u2019s very clear theologically, is that you can differentiate between forgiveness, which is me giving up my right to hurt you back, from reconciliation.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Scott:<\/strong> Reconciliation\u2014in Scripture, it\u2019s always clear\u2014reconciliation is hinged to responsibility. I can forgive somebody, but I can still withhold reconciliation. If they\u2019re not changing\u2014if they\u2019re not taking responsibility and it\u2019s a serious behavior\u2014in fact, you see this in Scripture\u20141 Corinthians 5 is a great example of it\u2014it may even be wise for me to withhold the relationship until this person changes\u2014but if we start to put a lot of our energy into \u201cHow can I get you back?\u201d or make sure that this is remembered because \u201cYou owe me,\u201d\u2014that wipes out the opportunities for intimacy and being \u201cnaked and unashamed.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Well, and I\u2019m guessing that the research would validate\u2014if your strategy is: \u201cI\u2019m going to get even and make them pay,\u201d you\u2019re not headed in a good place in your marriage. Nobody says, \u201cI\u2019m going to do that and my marriage will be <em>better<\/em> as a result of that.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>17:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Scott:<\/strong> That\u2019s right. \u201cI\u2019m going to hold you one down forever, and we\u2019ll forever be on a different level in this relationship,\u201d\u2014and we\u2019re supposed to walk together and have intimacy?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, here\u2019s a challenging secret\u2014this comes out of the research. This is a great example of the good research findings on this\u2014and this is hard to do. If you are really committed to forgiving someone else, the most powerful thing you can do to change yourself is to try to have empathy for what they were going through or what was going on in their life when they hurt you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Wow!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Scott:<\/strong> That\u2019s <em>hard<\/em> to do!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> That\u2019s very hard.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Scott:<\/strong> That\u2019s very hard.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> So, to make it a concrete example\u2014a wife has been unfaithful to her husband\u2014he learns about it. You\u2019re saying forgiveness is saying, \u201cI\u2019m not going to punish you for this offense.\u201d He\u2019ll never forget that. I\u2019ve never met a husband who said: \u201cOh, yeah! I\u2019d forgotten all about the fact that my wife was unfaithful 20 years ago.\u201d You don\u2019t forget that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Scott:<\/strong> You don\u2019t forget.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>18:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Right; but he gives up the right to punish. Now, you\u2019re saying\u2014to get closer, if he can start to have empathy\u2014if he can start to go, \u201cYou know, given what she was going through at the time, I can understand how that happened in her life,\u201d that\u2019s going to have an impact on their relationship together?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Scott:<\/strong> That\u2019s the most powerful pathway for it to happen. Let\u2019s take infidelity as a specific example, but you could apply this to anything in marriage. The way I like to explain that to couples is that you have a garden together\u2014great imagery in Scripture and in the Song of Solomon\u2014you know, you have a garden together.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIn some way, it\u2019s probably the responsibility of both of you\u2014it could be much more one than the other\u2014that certainly happens a lot\u2014but in some way, it\u2019s both of your responsibility\u2014what the state of that garden was. When that weed started to grow, and somebody nurtured that weed, and let it grow, and didn\u2019t pull it\u2014that\u2019s totally on that person\u2014the person that was unfaithful let that happen\u2014let their marriage be damaged in that way.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>19:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOne of the reasons why I teach about that is I want people to understand that there are two sorts of areas of responsibility when things are really going wrong in a marriage. Part of it is just what the individual has done that\u2019s hurt the relationship that they\u2019re responsible for and they\u2019re responsible to change. But there\u2019s usually some part that\u2019s the two of you\u2014that\u2019s related to how the two of you have treated each other over the years. It can be very lopsided or it can be kind of even. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe real power in forgiveness\u2014and this is where commitment comes back\u2014you wouldn\u2019t even decide to try to understand and have empathy for your mate when they\u2019ve hurt you if you weren\u2019t committed to really trying to get to the future with this person. So, it comes back, ultimately, to forgiveness. If I want this relationship with this person, and I really want us to be back on that level ground where we can be naked and unashamed, then it\u2019s going to take time. Real forgiveness for real pain takes real time. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>20:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI\u2019m going to have to really commit because I want this future with this person\u2014to getting us back on the same page. Part of the real power of getting back on the same page isn\u2019t excusing the behavior. It\u2019s not saying they\u2019re not responsible. They need to change, but it\u2019s going to be more powerful if I\u2019m willing to push myself to have a little empathy for how life was really difficult for them and not just for me.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And you\u2019re not letting them off the hook if you have empathy.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Scott:<\/strong> You\u2019re not.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You\u2019re not excusing, like you said\u2014because it feels, to you, like\u2014if you say, \u201cWell, I can understand how this happened,\u201d now it\u2019s all of a sudden like you\u2019re waiving away their responsibility.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Scott:<\/strong> Here\u2019s a fabulous example\u2014Jesus with the woman at the well. He waives nothing of that responsibility\u2014I mean, just totally\u2014but He\u2019s right there with her, sitting with the woman that nobody\u2019s going to associate with.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Scott:<\/strong> You know, all of what\u2019s embedded in that story\u2014totally loving, totally empathetic, totally understanding\u2014but He\u2019s not saying the behavior\u2019s okay. He\u2019s saying, \u201cI\u2019m here with you.\u201d What does she do in experiencing that love? She goes and tells everybody.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>21:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Yes, she brings back the whole city.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Scott:<\/strong> That\u2019s right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And, frankly, what you\u2019re helping us do, here on the broadcast today, is helping us tell the story of what we want to happen across the nation in the coming months. Beginning in August, and again in October, we\u2019re going to have three <em>I Still Do<\/em>\u2122 events, where we\u2019re going to elevate the national discussion around marriage and God\u2019s design of marriage. We\u2019re going to talk about forgiveness, and we\u2019re practically going to give people a way to do that\u2014not only at the event\u2014but when they get back home. It\u2019s going to equip them around these issues we\u2019re talking about.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tScott, I just think these kinds of discussions are life-giving\u2014not just merely to marriages\u2014but also families. If we give life to enough families, we\u2019re going to give life to our nation because marriage needs to thrive and, I think, needs to be spoken of in the marketplace much more positively today than we have in the past.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>22:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Well, we\u2019re hoping that folks who live in and around Chicago, or Portland, or Washington, DC, will make plans to join us. The Chicago event is just a couple of weeks away, at this point\u2014Saturday, August 2<sup>nd<\/sup>, at the Allstate Arena. Then, three weeks after that, we\u2019re in Portland\u2014that\u2019s August 23<sup>rd<\/sup> at the Moda Center\u2014then, October 4<sup>th<\/sup>, at the Verizon Center in Washington, DC. It\u2019s a one-day event that features Al Mohler speaking, Dennis and Barbara Rainey, Crawford and Karen Loritts, David Nasser, Shaunti Feldhahn, Ron Deal, music from Andrew Peterson and Chris August, Jimmy McNeal leading in worship.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt\u2019s a great one-day event. It\u2019s fun. It\u2019s exciting. At the end of the day, you\u2019ll walk away with a fresh sense that your marriage can be what God designed marriage to be. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com. Click the link at the top of the page that says, \u201cGo DEEPER.\u201d There\u2019s information there about <em>I Still Do<\/em>. You can get tickets online; or call 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY,\u201d if you have any questions about <em>I Still Do.<\/em>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>23:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd keep in mind\u2014we have copies of Scott Stanley\u2019s book, which is called <em>A Lasting Promise<\/em>. It\u2019s in our <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Resource Center. We\u2019d love to get a copy of the book to you. You can order that, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou know\u2014the conversation we\u2019ve had today and the <em>I Still Do<\/em> events that we\u2019ve got planned are all central to what FamilyLife is all about. Many of you who support this ministry\u2014you share that passion. We appreciate your partnership with us. We\u2019re listener- supported. If you can make a donation today, we\u2019d like to say, \u201cThank you,\u201d by sending you a message from Dennis Rainey\u2014a message that really gets to the heart of permanence in marriage. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDonate, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com. Click the button in the upper right-hand corner of the screen that says, \u201cI CARE,\u201d and make an online donation. Or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to make a donation over the phone. Ask for the CD from Dennis Rainey when you do. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>24:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOr you can request the CD and mail your contribution to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> at P O \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBox 7111, Little Rock, AR. Our zip code is 72223. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, we still have more to talk about with Scott Stanley as we zero-in on the issue of permanence in marriage. We\u2019ll continue the conversation tomorrow. I hope you can be back with us for that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHelp for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2014 FamilyLife. 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researcher Scott Stanley emphasizes that a couple's ability to work through conflict together is determinative of a couple's success. But commitment, he says, must be the foundation.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2014-07-15.pdf","transcript_content":"<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Some people think that if forgiveness has been offered and received in a marriage relationship, then trust should automatically be restored. Scott Stanley says that\u2019s not the case. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Scott:<\/strong> In Scripture, it\u2019s always clear\u2014reconciliation is hinged to responsibility. So, I can forgive somebody; but I can still withhold reconciliation. If they\u2019re not changing\u2014if they\u2019re not taking responsibility and it\u2019s a serious behavior\u2014in fact, you see this in Scripture\u20141 Corinthians 5 is a great example of it\u2014it may even be wise for me to withhold the relationship until this person changes. But that doesn\u2019t mean I\u2019m running around trying to hurt them back. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Tuesday, July 15<sup>th<\/sup>. Our host is the President of FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, Dennis Rainey, and I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We\u2019ll talk today about what the Bible has to say about real forgiveness and about reconciliation. Stay tuned.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>1:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. Before we came in here, I was talking with our guest today. I was telling him about the first time I ever heard him on another radio program. You ought to introduce him, but I should tell you the story because I don\u2019t know that I\u2019ve ever told you the story.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Well, Scott Stanley\u2019s here. He is the author of <em>A Lasting Promise<\/em>. He\u2019s a researcher and co-directs the Center for Marital and Family Relationships at the University of Denver. Scott, welcome back. I can\u2019t wait to hear what so pierced Bob\u2019s mind so many years ago. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Scott:<\/strong> Me, too. I\u2019m very curious. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Well, back in\u2014it was actually 1996\u2014I remember it very clearly. You and I were together in Seattle, Washington, getting ready to speak at one of our <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em><sup>\u00ae<\/sup> marriage getaways up there.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I was driving through the streets of Seattle on my way to the convention center, where the event was being held. I had <em>Focus on the Family<\/em><sup>\u00ae<\/sup> on. Scott, you were a guest with Gary Smalley on <em>Focus on the Family<\/em>. Do you remember this?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Scott:<\/strong> Yes, mid-90\u2019s. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>2:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I\u2019m listening; and I hear Gary Smalley say to Dr. Dobson\u2014he says, \u201cWhat Scott has discovered\u2014if you do this one thing in your marriage, it will <em>revolutionize<\/em> your marriage.\u201d I\u2019m thinking to myself: \u201cI\u2019m about to speak on marriage\u2014I better know what the one thing is\u201d; right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> So, do you remember what the one thing is?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Scott:<\/strong> I don\u2019t remember what the one thing is. [Laughter] I don\u2019t remember a lot of one things! [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Here\u2019s what you said\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Scott:<\/strong> Wonderful.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014and, you know what? I thought\u2014first, I thought, \u201cThat\u2019s right!\u201d And then I thought, \u201cWell, duh,\u201d\u2014I mean no offense. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Scott:<\/strong> No.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> But a lot of what you find in the research you do\u2014you look at the research and say, \u201cWell, duh!\u201d Don\u2019t you?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Scott:<\/strong> I started to write a paper once\u2014I didn\u2019t finish it, but it was going to be on this very point\u2014called \u201cDuh Findings\u201d [Laughter] because a lot of the really good stuff\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> It\u2019s like discovering gravity. It\u2019s there.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Scott:<\/strong> That\u2019s right; that\u2019s right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> So, here\u2019s what you said. You said that: \u201cA couple\u2019s ability to work through conflict together and resolve conflict is the number one predictor of long-term marital success.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>3:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Scott:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And I thought to myself, \u201cWell, duh.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Scott:<\/strong> Duh.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> If we can, as a couple, when we\u2019re on different pages, come together and say, \u201cOkay, how can we deal with our differences?\u201d that will go a long way to making for a great marriage.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Scott:<\/strong> Absolutely it will go a long way! I would actually say two things now. We talked about commitment\u2014commitment, communication\/conflict\u2014that\u2019s where it\u2019s at in terms of research. You look in those two dimensions and you know a lot about how a marriage is going to go.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> If a couple is committed to one another\u2014that\u2019s healthy and that\u2019s in place\u2014and if they can communicate and resolve conflict, there in a pretty good place.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Scott:<\/strong> Big stuff.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And back to the \u201cduh\u201d factor for just a moment. It\u2019s kind of a \u201cduh\u201d because the Bible begins with the story of a marriage. When He wraps this whole thing up and packages it for us to be able to digest it, He says, \u201cFor this cause a man shall leave his father and mother.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>4:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe talked about this earlier\u2014\u201cand he shall cleave to his wife.\u201d That\u2019s commitment. \u201cAnd they shall become one\u201d\u2014one flesh. Then the passage concludes with \u201cand the man and his wife were both naked and they were not ashamed.\u201d That\u2019s really the progression of how a marriage was designed to progress\u2014from leaving to cleaving \/ commitment, to becoming one, and then getting on with this process of being completely transparent and honest with another imperfect person and not being ashamed.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYet, as we do this, we\u2019re going to hurt each other. That points out the reason why we <em>must <\/em>resolve our conflicts.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Scott:<\/strong> That passage \/ that verse\u2014\u201cbeing naked and unashamed\u201d\u2014I think is actually the most hopeful line in all of Scripture about marriage. You think about all of the changes in marriage, and divorce, and the fragility about marriage in our culture. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>5:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat I think is so powerful about that\u2014and is the best hope for marriage\u2014is people want that. They want what\u2019s expressed in that one line. They want that kind of safety\u2014emotional safety\u2014in their relationship, where they can be connected and be who they are. What you see with Adam and Eve is that they have that\u2014whatever all that means, you know, at that point in the story. Then you can watch, in a pretty powerful way, how it falls apart in Genesis 3, in terms of what happens to Adam and Eve.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe all live in that post-Fall\u2014sort of post-Genesis 3\u2014world, where we want this; but it is a challenge to achieve that in marriage. But it is what we want, deep in our heart.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> If we want that transparency, Scripture really teaches that marriage is a cord of three strands.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Scott:<\/strong> Yes. What I like about that concept\u2014I don\u2019t know how many people tend to think about that, but you see that in Ecclesiastes\u2014I think that is an image of the idea that marriage, fundamentally, involves me, you, and God.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>6:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt\u2019s three of us being woven together in terms of what God wants to do in marriage. I think it makes a very powerful sort of bond when you really have that together, as a couple.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> You research people from all walks of life\u2014some who have a relationship with God and others who don\u2019t. Do you see a marked difference between marriages and families who know God\u2014walk with Him, experience Him, and talk with Him daily\u2014and those who don\u2019t?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Scott:<\/strong> Let me take apart the two parts of your sentence because the answer to your question lies in it. Do I see a difference between those who know God or say they know God and others? I don\u2019t see a big difference there. The walking part is where the big difference comes in. We all know\u2014you see the statistics that come up a lot in the church\u2014about people in the church having just about as much divorce as those outside the church\u2014and there are controversies about that data.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>7:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat\u2019s clear in the research\u2014just saying you\u2019re a believer, or a Christian, or nominally involved in something like that\u2014you see in the research a slight edge for those marriages. You see a slight edge for people who are\u2014researchers call it \u201creligious.\u201d They don\u2019t usually measure clearly things about faith\u2014and Christianity and stuff\u2014but there\u2019s a slight edge there.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhere the big edge comes is when you see two people who are in some way\u2014and there can be many ways to do this\u2014practicing their faith together. That\u2019s where the big edge comes. I can\u2019t tell you exactly how big it is; but if you get closer to measuring the walking instead of the talking, then you\u2019ve got some power in terms of how a marriage is going to go.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Yes. It seems to me, today, that that\u2019s where couples are missing it. They\u2019re beginning the marriage relationship and they\u2019re not inviting the One into the marriage who actually created the blueprints and who is the One who wants to walk with them through all of the experiences, all the issues, all the barriers, all the hard times they\u2019re going to face in their marriage relationship.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>8:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> At the same time, you say in the book that it takes more than simply having a healthy relationship with God for your marriage to work out. So, two people who say, \u201cAs long as we love God, we\u2019re going to do fine in marriage,\u201d it would say, \u201cNot necessarily.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Scott:<\/strong> Yes. And, you know, in the book, we have a lot of very specific skills and strategies. That\u2019s intentional because I think we all agree\u2014you can have somebody who\u2019s exactly in the right place in their heart with God\u2014you can have, in the best case, two people who are in just the right place. That doesn\u2019t mean they know what to do. That doesn\u2019t mean they know how to handle a conflict, how to set a goal, how to clarify expectations, how to invest or sacrifice for one another. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNone of that necessarily comes. In fact, I would say that, in today\u2019s culture and society, so many people grow up now in homes that are broken or where their parents, maybe, never even married on one side\u2014you know, one was just taken off.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>9:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tPeople have come from such diverse backgrounds and so many different forms of broken homes or difficult homes now that you can\u2019t assume people know much of anything about how to do a healthy relationship, even if their heart is perfectly in the right place about wanting it and being willing to do it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> One of the things you talk about in your book is what\u2019s called \u201cThe Crazy Ladder.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Scott:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> It\u2019s when things begin to escalate. Explain what you mean, to our listeners, by that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Scott:<\/strong> This is one of my favorite new word pictures about thinking about something that we\u2019ve studied for a long time in research. Many studies show that couples that escalate easily and have trouble getting it back wound down are in marriages that are going to struggle a lot more and have more difficulties.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Now, when you say \u201cescalate,\u201d you\u2019re talking about ramping up the emotions.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Scott:<\/strong> Yes; and I mean the negative, negative, negative back and forth\u2014rising emotional intensity. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>10:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tUsually that leads to things being said that are reckless. It says in Proverbs: \u201cReckless words pierce like a sword.\u201d It\u2019s in those moments that people say some <em>very<\/em> damaging things, either about commitment or about the character of the other.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think of it as\u2014when a couple has trouble with escalation, you can think about it as a kind of \u201ccrazy ladder.\u201d Here\u2019s the nature of ladders\u2014this is what I love about the metaphor\u2014it is way easier to go up than it is to come down. You can go up faster than you can come down. The further up you go\u2014the less stable it is. It\u2019s all\u2014you know, the further you go\u2014the more <em>dangerous<\/em> it is.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat a lot of couples do is\u2014they go up this ladder fast. Very often, they get wrung out, if you will. They get up too high too fast. Now it\u2019s hard to get back down. You\u2019re unstable. You\u2019ve got to walk it back down. Your kids are seeing this, and they\u2019re damaged by seeing this regularly. It\u2019s not good for the children. So, I like for people to think about getting off the crazy ladder\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>11:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014which means not going up as fast in the first place and learning some ways to get back down and rein it back in when you do get up too far.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> What do you do if you\u2019re finding yourself beginning to climb a ladder rather quickly? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Scott:<\/strong> Two strategies: one strategy to really handling this is getting off the ladder sooner so that you\u2019re only like a few rungs up instead of 16 rungs up.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Is that: \u201cDon\u2019t let the sun go down in your anger,\u201d\u2014is that it?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Scott:<\/strong> It\u2019s talking to each other\u2014that\u2019s what that passage talks about. It\u2019s \u201ca gentle answer turns away wrath.\u201d It\u2019s all of these kinds of basic ideas. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat it looks like is\u2014you start to escalate\u2014maybe one of you says something with a little too much edge\u2014for a really skilled couple or a couple that is safe\u2014you\u2019ll see things like this happen. One says something negative and the other says\u2014let\u2019s say they criticized the other about being kind of compulsive, you know: \u201cWhy do you do that that way?! That dish doesn\u2019t really have to go in <em>that<\/em> way. It could go in this way.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>12:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe other could say: \u201cThere you go again!\u2014just really riding me about this, as if this is the right way to do it!\u201d You know\u2014then off the couple goes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tA couple that\u2019s more aware of the danger of escalation can get out of that faster because one might say: \u201cYou know\u2014I\u2019m sorry. I shouldn\u2019t have said anything. I don\u2019t know why I\u2019m picking on you about that. Please forgive me for that. Just let it go.\u201d That\u2019s de-escalating rapidly by just softening and making something more positive happen.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You talk in here about the whole idea of negative interpretation, which is really where you assume the worst about everything that\u2019s going on; right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Scott:<\/strong> That\u2019s a big thing that fuels escalation\u2014so it\u2019s a really added problem. So not only maybe we\u2019re not so skilled at controlling the anger and the frustration, but part of what really feeds that is that it\u2019s very easy to take a negative view. For example, one picks on the other for how they load the dishwasher and the dishes. The other makes a big deal out of it. The more skillful couple can get out of that faster by softening somehow. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>13:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut let\u2019s say it really escalates for a couple. Part of the escalation is, maybe, one starts to take it personally that \u201cYou won\u2019t load the dishwasher the way I think it should be loaded.\u201d The other strategy is you\u2019ve got to learn a way, as a couple, to take a time out. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou can use the word \u201ctime out.\u201d You can use some common terms that people use today like \u201cslow the roll,\u201d \u201cpump your brakes,\u201d\u2014whatever it is\u2014something where, as a couple, you have a way to signal: \u201cWe\u2019re getting a little \u2018out there\u2019 right now. Let\u2019s rein it in.\u201d The power of this\u2014this strategy works best if the two of you agree to use it so there\u2019s a signal that you both understand: \u201cLet\u2019s take a time out. Let\u2019s chill a bit.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tEven, as an individual, you can do this\u2014you know: \u201cHey, we\u2019re getting pretty upset right now. Why don\u2019t we sort of wind this back down, and then we\u2019ll come back and talk what we need to talk about in a couple of hours.\u201d That\u2019s very hard to do but very simple. If you really try to learn to do that, you can save your marriage a lot of heartache.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> You really can\u2019t talk about escalating emotions and conflict without ultimately moving to the subject of forgiveness. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>14:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWould you explain what forgiveness is and what you\u2019ve learned about it through your research?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Scott:<\/strong> Forgiveness\u2014interesting, to me\u2014I mean, there\u2019s a lot of research now on forgiveness, in the last 15 years or so, actually, in terms of researchers becoming very interested in the concept. Of course, historically, it\u2019s mostly religious people and mostly Christians. It\u2019s talked about a lot in Christian theology. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe essence of forgiveness is giving up your perceived right to get even. If you feel like this person has done something that may by, objectively, very clearly true. They\u2019ve done something that hurt you. It could be little or it could be big. There are examples of both that we talk about very clearly in the book. The essence of a problem with forgiveness is the sense of \u201cNow you owe me because of that.\u201d Jesus, when He talks about forgiveness, uses\u2014or the Greek word we have in the New Testament that records His teaching is\u2014<em>apeimi<\/em>.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>15:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt really means to remit\u2014to give up \/ to refrain from exacting punishment. That\u2019s what forgiveness is. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tPart of where we get in trouble in our relationships is that it\u2019s hard enough to forgive well when you understand forgiveness really clearly. It\u2019s virtually <em>impossible<\/em> when you start to layer in concepts that really aren\u2019t related to exactly what forgiveness is. For example, we start to think forgiveness is forgetting: \u201cWell, you still remember so you haven\u2019t really forgiven me.\u201d Well, if you\u2019ve really been hurt deeply, you\u2019re not going to forget. So forgetting is not part of forgiveness.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tA lot of people fear that \u201cIf I forgive my partner\u2014big or small \/ whatever it is\u2014I\u2019m going to convey to them that their behavior was just fine.\u201d That\u2019s not what forgiveness is either. You can forgive somebody\u2014you can decide you\u2019re not going to hold them one down. You\u2019re not going to try to get even\u2014and, at the same time, have them still be responsible for their behavior\u2014be responsible for change\u2014need to be, maybe, committed to some big changes in the relationship\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>16:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014part of the reason why it\u2019s important to separate those out. It\u2019s very clear theologically, is that you can differentiate between forgiveness, which is me giving up my right to hurt you back, from reconciliation.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Scott:<\/strong> Reconciliation\u2014in Scripture, it\u2019s always clear\u2014reconciliation is hinged to responsibility. I can forgive somebody, but I can still withhold reconciliation. If they\u2019re not changing\u2014if they\u2019re not taking responsibility and it\u2019s a serious behavior\u2014in fact, you see this in Scripture\u20141 Corinthians 5 is a great example of it\u2014it may even be wise for me to withhold the relationship until this person changes\u2014but if we start to put a lot of our energy into \u201cHow can I get you back?\u201d or make sure that this is remembered because \u201cYou owe me,\u201d\u2014that wipes out the opportunities for intimacy and being \u201cnaked and unashamed.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Well, and I\u2019m guessing that the research would validate\u2014if your strategy is: \u201cI\u2019m going to get even and make them pay,\u201d you\u2019re not headed in a good place in your marriage. Nobody says, \u201cI\u2019m going to do that and my marriage will be <em>better<\/em> as a result of that.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>17:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Scott:<\/strong> That\u2019s right. \u201cI\u2019m going to hold you one down forever, and we\u2019ll forever be on a different level in this relationship,\u201d\u2014and we\u2019re supposed to walk together and have intimacy?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, here\u2019s a challenging secret\u2014this comes out of the research. This is a great example of the good research findings on this\u2014and this is hard to do. If you are really committed to forgiving someone else, the most powerful thing you can do to change yourself is to try to have empathy for what they were going through or what was going on in their life when they hurt you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Wow!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Scott:<\/strong> That\u2019s <em>hard<\/em> to do!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> That\u2019s very hard.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Scott:<\/strong> That\u2019s very hard.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> So, to make it a concrete example\u2014a wife has been unfaithful to her husband\u2014he learns about it. You\u2019re saying forgiveness is saying, \u201cI\u2019m not going to punish you for this offense.\u201d He\u2019ll never forget that. I\u2019ve never met a husband who said: \u201cOh, yeah! I\u2019d forgotten all about the fact that my wife was unfaithful 20 years ago.\u201d You don\u2019t forget that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Scott:<\/strong> You don\u2019t forget.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>18:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Right; but he gives up the right to punish. Now, you\u2019re saying\u2014to get closer, if he can start to have empathy\u2014if he can start to go, \u201cYou know, given what she was going through at the time, I can understand how that happened in her life,\u201d that\u2019s going to have an impact on their relationship together?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Scott:<\/strong> That\u2019s the most powerful pathway for it to happen. Let\u2019s take infidelity as a specific example, but you could apply this to anything in marriage. The way I like to explain that to couples is that you have a garden together\u2014great imagery in Scripture and in the Song of Solomon\u2014you know, you have a garden together.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIn some way, it\u2019s probably the responsibility of both of you\u2014it could be much more one than the other\u2014that certainly happens a lot\u2014but in some way, it\u2019s both of your responsibility\u2014what the state of that garden was. When that weed started to grow, and somebody nurtured that weed, and let it grow, and didn\u2019t pull it\u2014that\u2019s totally on that person\u2014the person that was unfaithful let that happen\u2014let their marriage be damaged in that way.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>19:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOne of the reasons why I teach about that is I want people to understand that there are two sorts of areas of responsibility when things are really going wrong in a marriage. Part of it is just what the individual has done that\u2019s hurt the relationship that they\u2019re responsible for and they\u2019re responsible to change. But there\u2019s usually some part that\u2019s the two of you\u2014that\u2019s related to how the two of you have treated each other over the years. It can be very lopsided or it can be kind of even. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe real power in forgiveness\u2014and this is where commitment comes back\u2014you wouldn\u2019t even decide to try to understand and have empathy for your mate when they\u2019ve hurt you if you weren\u2019t committed to really trying to get to the future with this person. So, it comes back, ultimately, to forgiveness. If I want this relationship with this person, and I really want us to be back on that level ground where we can be naked and unashamed, then it\u2019s going to take time. Real forgiveness for real pain takes real time. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>20:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI\u2019m going to have to really commit because I want this future with this person\u2014to getting us back on the same page. Part of the real power of getting back on the same page isn\u2019t excusing the behavior. It\u2019s not saying they\u2019re not responsible. They need to change, but it\u2019s going to be more powerful if I\u2019m willing to push myself to have a little empathy for how life was really difficult for them and not just for me.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And you\u2019re not letting them off the hook if you have empathy.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Scott:<\/strong> You\u2019re not.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You\u2019re not excusing, like you said\u2014because it feels, to you, like\u2014if you say, \u201cWell, I can understand how this happened,\u201d now it\u2019s all of a sudden like you\u2019re waiving away their responsibility.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Scott:<\/strong> Here\u2019s a fabulous example\u2014Jesus with the woman at the well. He waives nothing of that responsibility\u2014I mean, just totally\u2014but He\u2019s right there with her, sitting with the woman that nobody\u2019s going to associate with.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Scott:<\/strong> You know, all of what\u2019s embedded in that story\u2014totally loving, totally empathetic, totally understanding\u2014but He\u2019s not saying the behavior\u2019s okay. He\u2019s saying, \u201cI\u2019m here with you.\u201d What does she do in experiencing that love? She goes and tells everybody.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>21:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Yes, she brings back the whole city.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Scott:<\/strong> That\u2019s right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And, frankly, what you\u2019re helping us do, here on the broadcast today, is helping us tell the story of what we want to happen across the nation in the coming months. Beginning in August, and again in October, we\u2019re going to have three <em>I Still Do<\/em>\u2122 events, where we\u2019re going to elevate the national discussion around marriage and God\u2019s design of marriage. We\u2019re going to talk about forgiveness, and we\u2019re practically going to give people a way to do that\u2014not only at the event\u2014but when they get back home. It\u2019s going to equip them around these issues we\u2019re talking about.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tScott, I just think these kinds of discussions are life-giving\u2014not just merely to marriages\u2014but also families. If we give life to enough families, we\u2019re going to give life to our nation because marriage needs to thrive and, I think, needs to be spoken of in the marketplace much more positively today than we have in the past.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>22:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Well, we\u2019re hoping that folks who live in and around Chicago, or Portland, or Washington, DC, will make plans to join us. The Chicago event is just a couple of weeks away, at this point\u2014Saturday, August 2<sup>nd<\/sup>, at the Allstate Arena. Then, three weeks after that, we\u2019re in Portland\u2014that\u2019s August 23<sup>rd<\/sup> at the Moda Center\u2014then, October 4<sup>th<\/sup>, at the Verizon Center in Washington, DC. It\u2019s a one-day event that features Al Mohler speaking, Dennis and Barbara Rainey, Crawford and Karen Loritts, David Nasser, Shaunti Feldhahn, Ron Deal, music from Andrew Peterson and Chris August, Jimmy McNeal leading in worship.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt\u2019s a great one-day event. It\u2019s fun. It\u2019s exciting. At the end of the day, you\u2019ll walk away with a fresh sense that your marriage can be what God designed marriage to be. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com. Click the link at the top of the page that says, \u201cGo DEEPER.\u201d There\u2019s information there about <em>I Still Do<\/em>. You can get tickets online; or call 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY,\u201d if you have any questions about <em>I Still Do.<\/em>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>23:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd keep in mind\u2014we have copies of Scott Stanley\u2019s book, which is called <em>A Lasting Promise<\/em>. It\u2019s in our <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Resource Center. We\u2019d love to get a copy of the book to you. You can order that, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou know\u2014the conversation we\u2019ve had today and the <em>I Still Do<\/em> events that we\u2019ve got planned are all central to what FamilyLife is all about. Many of you who support this ministry\u2014you share that passion. We appreciate your partnership with us. We\u2019re listener- supported. If you can make a donation today, we\u2019d like to say, \u201cThank you,\u201d by sending you a message from Dennis Rainey\u2014a message that really gets to the heart of permanence in marriage. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDonate, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com. Click the button in the upper right-hand corner of the screen that says, \u201cI CARE,\u201d and make an online donation. Or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to make a donation over the phone. Ask for the CD from Dennis Rainey when you do. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>24:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOr you can request the CD and mail your contribution to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> at P O \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBox 7111, Little Rock, AR. Our zip code is 72223. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, we still have more to talk about with Scott Stanley as we zero-in on the issue of permanence in marriage. We\u2019ll continue the conversation tomorrow. I hope you can be back with us for that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHelp for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2014 FamilyLife. 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