{"id":303103,"date":"2014-07-01T11:00:00","date_gmt":"2014-07-01T15:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/stopping-a-toxic-relationship-the-truth-about-change\/"},"modified":"2014-07-01T11:00:00","modified_gmt":"2014-07-01T15:00:00","slug":"stopping-a-toxic-relationship-the-truth-about-change","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/stopping-a-toxic-relationship-the-truth-about-change\/","title":{"rendered":"Stopping a Toxic Relationship:  The Truth About Change"},"content":{"rendered":"","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Leslie Vernick talks about changing an emotionally destructive relationship into a healthy one, beginning with your own behavior and response.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2014-07-01.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:","filesize":"24.33M","filesize_raw":"25512866","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2873],"tags":[2949,4647,4197,5366,5333],"podcast_series":[7719],"cwp_profile":[3229],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-303103","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-mental-and-emotional-issues","tag-abuse","tag-emotional","tag-healing","tag-protection","tag-restoration","podcast_series-the-emotionally-destructive-relationship","cwp_profile-leslie-vernick","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/303103\/stopping-a-toxic-relationship-the-truth-about-change","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/303103\/stopping-a-toxic-relationship-the-truth-about-change","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"EDIaLvENvR\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/stopping-a-toxic-relationship-the-truth-about-change\/\">Stopping a Toxic Relationship:  The Truth About Change<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/stopping-a-toxic-relationship-the-truth-about-change\/embed\/#?secret=EDIaLvENvR\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Stopping a Toxic Relationship:  The Truth About Change&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"EDIaLvENvR\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2014-07-01.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2014-07-01.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Before we dig in and talk about how we turn the tide, how we navigate change in an emotionally destructive relationship; is it even important whether we identify the level of destruction that\u2019s taking place? I talked about this kind of garden variety sinful pattern. I mean, I\u2019ve said things to my wife that I wish I hadn\u2019t said, that have been hurtful, or harmful. She\u2019s said things to me that she wishes she hadn\u2019t said. I wouldn\u2019t say we\u2019re in an emotionally destructive relationship. Is it important to hang a label on that or do we just recognize that wherever we are, we want to get better?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>4:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie: <\/strong>Well, I think that\u2019s part of the key, is to recognize that both of you recognize that you\u2019ve said things that are harmful to each other. James tells us in James 3:2, \u201cWe all stumble in many ways.\u201d So we aren\u2019t going to live with perfect people, and we\u2019re going to live with people who are broken just like us and say bad things.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut a healthy person, when they recognize that they\u2019ve sinned against another person, because they see that person\u2019s hurt or because that person has said, \u201cYou hurt me,\u201d they own it. They take responsibility for it and they work at changing it. An unhealthy person won\u2019t see it, they will blame you for it, they won\u2019t take any responsibility for it and they repeat it over and over again.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe difference between a healthy relationship or a destructive relationship, or a difficult relationship, is one of safety. I think when you feel safe enough to say \u201cOuch!\u201d to somebody, \u201cThat really hurt me.\u201d And the other person says, \u201cYou know, I shouldn\u2019t have said that. I was tired or I lost my temper; I need to get better control of my temper, my words, or whatever,\u201d then you can move on.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>5:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut when someone doesn\u2019t feel even safe enough to tell someone, \u201cThat really hurt me\u201d or \u201cThat really bothers me,\u201d they can\u2019t express their opinion. They can\u2019t be who they are because who they are is unacceptable to the other person. Then it becomes a real destructive relationship.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>We were chuckling, just for a minute, before we came on the air here about the fact that your mother called you a \u201cnincompoop\u201d when you were growing up. [Laughter] Repeatedly right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Oh, yes; I was just reflecting. She could have probably done it in a little more respectful manner, but I knew my mom loved me. My mom and I had a great relationship and it was more of an affectionate term that was saying, \u201cSon, straighten up.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>You didn\u2019t walk away going, \u201cOuch,\u201d or you didn\u2019t walk away thinking, \u201cI really am stupid,\u201d did you?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>No; again, I don\u2019t think so. I mean, as much as I can tell today.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Leslie, here\u2019s my question in all of this.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>A few years have passed since then, you know. [Laughter]\u00a0 It\u2019s like we all carry these little words with us that were said to us by our parents, and some of the statements they made.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Is it possible that in some relationships there\u2019s playful banter that takes place that in another relationship the same kind of pattern would be abusive but in this one it\u2019s not?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>6:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie: <\/strong>Absolutely, as long as both people are in agreement of it. If both people are okay with it, and it\u2019s not hurting anybody and they\u2019re getting something out of their system and they\u2019re fighting and they can manage that without either one of them feeling like they\u2019re scared or they can\u2019t take it or they\u2019re falling apart or it inhibits their growth or that damages them, then it\u2019s okay. I think everybody\u2019s pain threshold is different, whether it\u2019s for physical pain, or relational pain, or emotional pain.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI remember, when I had my first child, we were into Lamaze. I was going to have this natural childbirth. All my friends were telling me, \u201cYou know, it\u2019s a piece of cake; you can do it,\u201d and I couldn\u2019t. I couldn\u2019t do it. Ten hours later I was saying, \u201cGive me drugs!\u00a0 I want drugs now!\u201d [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI felt like such a failure because, for whatever reason, my pain threshold was lower, or I was more sensitive or it hurt me more, or maybe they could take it longer. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>7:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think we do an injustice and we\u2019re very unfair to some people when maybe we could take that, and they can\u2019t. So we\u2019re saying, \u201cYou\u2019re just too sensitive,\u201d but if they\u2019re married to someone who is treating them that way, part of loving that person is to know that they\u2019re sensitive.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>There\u2019s part of me, as we talk about this, I\u2019m just a little concerned that some folks are going to go, \u201cYou know maybe I am in an emotionally destructive relationship. I thought I was okay until today. But maybe it is emotionally destructive.\u201d And what we\u2019ve really done is made them more sensitive to something that they didn\u2019t need to be sensitive to. Does that make sense?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie: <\/strong>I hear you and I think that\u2019s a possibility. If someone is looking to be a victim, they can find it; but there are times when cancer is growing and you don\u2019t know it\u2019s there, so we do need to define what it means. I think by taking the test, that you\u2019re offering on your website, people will have a clear idea: is it just small potatoes or is this something that I\u2019ve felt for a long time and now I have a word to describe it?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>The test you\u2019re talking about is from your book, <em>The Emotionally Destructive Relationship<\/em>. Thirty one questions that help somebody evaluate just how bad is this?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>8:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt\u2019s on our website at FamilyLifeToday.com if our listeners are interested in going there.\u00a0 This would be a helpful diagnostic tool for them.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>It would be good. I found it interesting, Leslie, in your book that you have an entire section that is explaining biblical authority of headship and submission. Now, I\u2019ve got a sneaking suspicion that you have seen, as a counselor, a number of situations where men have overused their authority and where women have given men too much authority.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie: I<\/strong> have, unfortunately, and I think some churches endorse that. I really wanted to be biblical in this book because I speak with so many women and men who are in destructive relationships and they try to go to the place that should give them the most help, which is the church. And they\u2019ve been misled, they\u2019ve been hurt more, they\u2019ve been told, \u201cWell, that\u2019s just how it is. God put him in charge, so you just have to obey and submit.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>9:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tEven if he\u2019s steering the whole family right off the edge of a cliff, you\u2019re not allowed to say \u201cno;\u201d you\u2019re not allowed to jump ship; you\u2019re not allowed to do anything but go over, and the whole kids and family and everybody goes over the cliff.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>We did a series of broadcasts here on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> a number of years ago - Bob\u2019s going to know exactly the ones I\u2019m talking about. We had a counselor from Southern California, and a deputy sheriff from Milwaukee, Wisconsin. We talked about abusive relationships where there was\u2026\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>. . .where there was domestic violence.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>. . . domestic violence. You\u2019ll not be surprised at what they said in that interview. They said that the place that fostered the most of this were extreme fundamentalist churches.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie: <\/strong>I have seen a number of situations like that. I could go story after story after story, so that\u2019s why I felt it was so important for me to clarify all these things with biblical terms, because I want people who are strong believers, who are committed Christians, who are godly people who want to do what God wants them to do, [to know] that God has a plan for them, and he has a way for them to deal with this in a biblical way.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>10:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHeadship - I just want to define this really clearly - is not just getting your own way, which is oftentimes what men who claim headship scripture passages. \u201cThis means I get to make all the decisions. This means I get to do what I want to do and you have no right to contradict that.\u201d That\u2019s not what headship is biblically. Headship is a loving sacrificial service of the other person, and you get to do that first as the head.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSubmission is never something you can make someone do. Submission, godly submission, is done by the person who is doing the submitting and they do it willingly.\u00a0 So as soon as someone forces someone to submit, it\u2019s not biblical submission. It\u2019s called coercion, manipulation, force, or rape sometimes; so it\u2019s not those terms.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes, I have to tell you a story. I think I\u2019ve shared this on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, but I\u2019ll never forget it. I was driving along with a friend of mine; he was in his first year of marriage. I just said, \u201cHow are things going with you and Cathy?\u201d He said, \u201cOh, we\u2019re doing all right.\u201d He said, \u201cShe\u2019s just not really submitting to me the way she ought to.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>11:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI said, \u201cWell, that\u2019s interesting. What makes you think she\u2019s supposed to?\u201d He looked at me like, \u201cWell, you know the Bible. You\u2019ve read the Bible.\u201d I said, \u201cYes, there\u2019s one in the glove compartment. Get it out.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo he got it out and turned to Ephesians chapter five and I said, \u201cSo, what does it say there?\u201d He said, \u201cRight here, it says \u2018Wives submit\u2026\u2019\u201d I said, \u201cStop. What\u2019s the first word there?\u201d \u201cWives.\u201d I said, \u201cAre you a wife?\u201d He said, \u201cNo.\u201d I said, \u201cOK, move on, that verse isn\u2019t for you then. You go onto the one that says \u2018husbands\u2019 and read that part.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tMy point \u2013 and he laughed, he knew what I was trying to say - my point is it\u2019s not your job, if you\u2019re a wife, to get your husband to lead or, if you\u2019re a husband, to get your wife to submit. It\u2019s your responsibility to do what God\u2019s called you to do.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Yes, and Leslie, let\u2019s say right now, there is a woman who is listening to this broadcast and she\u2019s, all of a sudden, moved very close to the radio, or to her iPod or her computer.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>12:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tShe\u2019s going, \u201cI think I\u2019m in a relationship where I\u2019m being abused by a husband who is overreaching his authority and he\u2019s abusing me with it.\u201d How do you stop that?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie: <\/strong>Well, the beginning of change in a destructive relationship starts with you. You have to begin to identify and own your problem. You might say, \u201cWell, that\u2019s not my problem that he\u2019s acting that way.\u201d But when you\u2019re a repeated victim of someone, you have to begin to ask yourself what\u2019s your part? It might just be that you\u2019re not educated or you\u2019re too passive, or you\u2019ve believed the wrong things but there\u2019s something about that that\u2019s kept you in that destructive dance (you\u2019re afraid). So, when you begin to identify your part, then you can begin to make a change because you can\u2019t change another person, you can only start by changing yourself.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>You know, I want to speak to that for a second because I\u2019m thinking of a relationship that I endured for the better part of two decades. What you just described was me. Now, here I am, I know the Bible. I\u2019ve written books about relationships, I teach about relationships.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>13:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI was in a relationship - not a close one that was like my wife or my children, or immediate family - but I was in a relationship that was not healthy. I really did keep on allowing that to occur, so I\u2019ve been there. It\u2019s interesting how we can continue to walk into this thing and be abused over and over and over again. It\u2019s almost like sheep to the slaughter.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>You tell the story in your book about a woman you identify as \u201cCynthia\u201d who came to you who was at this end point in her relationship with her husband and you had to coach her through how to stop it, right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong> I had to coach her through how to stop it and she represents so many other women that I talk with. She wanted to come to counseling for me to somehow give her some magic bullet that would help her to change her husband. I had to help her to understand that I didn\u2019t have that magic bullet; all I could do was help her to stop herself from putting up with this kind of relationship. She was afraid to do that.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>14:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut she couldn\u2019t begin to change it until she was willing to look at herself first.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>What was going on in her relationship with her husband?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie: <\/strong>Well, her husband was continually deceitful; he had committed a number of affairs. He had no real remorse for them. He was indifferent to their relationship; she had to do all the work, all the care of the children, manage all the finances, and he kind of just lived as a single person but with the perks of married life.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>So she comes and says, \u201cHow do I fix this? How do I fix him?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie: <\/strong>\u201cGod wants us to have a good relationship, and I know that God hates divorce, and I really want this marriage to work. How can I get him to change and how can I get him to tell the truth and how can I get him to love me?\u201d All the kind of things that every woman longs for, but you can\u2019t make someone love you. You can\u2019t make someone be honest. You can\u2019t make someone change.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>So what did you tell her to do?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie: <\/strong>So I told her \u201cCynthia, change begins with you, so the question you need to begin to ask yourself is, \u2018Why are you willing to live with a man who treats you this way?\u2019\u201d And she said, \u201cI don\u2019t know? Because I think God wants me to. I\u2019m supposed to stay here.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>15:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt was very difficult for her to begin to look at what her part of it was because loving someone isn\u2019t just allowing them to continue to sin against you with no protest. Loving them well, biblically, means that you begin to speak the truth in love into their life.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Yes, and it\u2019s interesting as we look at the Bible, we know we\u2019re commanded to love our enemies. I think sometimes, and this is what happened in my twenty-year-long relationship, I was doing my best to model to this other person what Christian love was all about. But as it became clear that I was being manipulated, taken advantage of, and really abused, I realized that there was a time that I had to draw a line in the sand and say, \u201cNo more. You\u2019re not going to do that to me anymore.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>You\u2019re saying to the other person, \u201cI\u2019m not going to let you do this because it\u2019s not right for you, as well as being hurtful to me. It\u2019s not loving to you to let you continue in that pattern.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>16:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Right, and the key thing was, I had a choice to be able to draw that line in the sand, and then I had to, as you said earlier, Bob, \u201cbuck up.\u201d I had to stand up and be courageous to stick to it, and not keep walking into an abusive situation to be take advantage of. In my situation, the way I handled it, was I took a friend with me. I took a partner who went with me into the relationship and in the process helped me stay on the right side of the line in the sand.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie: <\/strong>I think it would be really helpful right now to talk about what is a healthy relationship. The difference between a healthy relationship or a destructive relationship is one in which there\u2019s mutual caring, mutual honesty, and mutual respect.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf we just talk about respect, one of the things that I\u2019ve found in a relationship that\u2019s been destructive in my life is that this person, whenever I say \u201cno,\u201d there\u2019s this manipulative guilt that comes in. There\u2019s these boundary pushings. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>17:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI\u2019m not allowed to say no.\u00a0 I\u2019m not allowed to have boundaries or I\u2019m a bad person. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong> So it doesn\u2019t lend to a healthy relationship. The operative word here in mutual caring, mutual honesty, and mutual respect is \u201cmutual.\u201d So, we can have ministry to certain people, who may have needs and God calls us to minister to our enemies. But don\u2019t confuse that with healthy relationship, and that\u2019s what you began to say, \u201cI can\u2019t have a healthy relationship with this person. I may be able to minister to them here and there, but I can\u2019t have this relationship.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>I think what you just summarized there is very important because that was the conclusion I came to. Number one, I was kidding myself to think I could have healthy relationship with someone where there couldn\u2019t be any mutual love and respect.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie: <\/strong>Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>It wasn\u2019t happening.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie: <\/strong>They wanted you to care for them but they weren\u2019t caring for you, right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Exactly; but, secondly, I had to come to the conclusion that I couldn\u2019t have a relationship at all. Now, it\u2019s one thing, Leslie, if the person I\u2019m relating to is miles away and I\u2019m not in marriage with them. . . \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>18:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t. . . but speak to the person right now who\u2019s married to the person who, first they realize they can\u2019t have a healthy relationship and secondly they\u2019re not even sure they can achieve a real relationship with them.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie: <\/strong>That is the dilemma and you can make a marriage better all by yourself. You cannot make a marriage work or a marriage good all by yourself. It takes mutual effort, mutual caring, mutual honesty, and mutual respect. So, I think sometimes the burden of making a marriage good has been put on someone\u2019s shoulders as their sole responsibility and they\u2019ve taken it, and it\u2019s not possible. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think one of the things we need to do is just help people understand what it takes to have a good healthy relationship. If someone is in that situation though, especially in a marriage, what I coach them to do is, if they begin to get healthier, then they can begin to invite their partner into healthy change; because, when you\u2019re in a marriage, you\u2019re sort of like dancing with somebody.\u00a0 When you\u2019re dancing with someone, and it\u2019s fine with them that they\u2019re stepping on your toes, and they\u2019re kicking you in the shins, but it\u2019s not fine with you, you need to begin to speak up and say, \u201cYou know, this hurts me, I don\u2019t like this.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>19:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd, oftentimes, if you\u2019ve never done that before, and you\u2019ve been in a destructive relationship, if the other person cares about you, they will begin to hear you.\u00a0 Sometimes they don\u2019t, and you need to up the ante. That\u2019s when you begin to stand up and say, \u201cI can\u2019t allow myself to be treated this way anymore.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>You know, it\u2019s really interesting, I\u2019ve now lived enough life that I still have a lot of idealism, but it\u2019s been edited by reality.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie: <\/strong>Yes, me too.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Relationships are probably the number one editor of reality in my life. It doesn\u2019t mean we should lose our hope, and it doesn\u2019t mean we should revert to fleshly ways of dealing with relationships. In fact, as you were talking, I was thinking about a passage in Romans 12 that says, \u201cNever be conceited, repay no one evil for evil.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>20:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong><strong>\u201c<\/strong>But give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all.\u201d Then it adds something that you alluded to a little earlier. It says, \u201cIf possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all.\u201d It goes on to say, \u201cBeloved, never avenge yourselves; leave room for the wrath of God.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think sometimes we lose sight of who God is in these relationships. It may be, at points, that we need to take a step back and pray for the person who is abusing us and pray that God will - not necessarily get even, but - get his attention, or get her attention, and begin to take a step back and get healthy in your relationship with that other person; because, if you don\u2019t, you\u2019re going to keep on walking in there as I described how I did for 20 years. You\u2019re going to keep on getting hurt. You\u2019re going to leave that relationship going, \u201cMan, how can I do a better job of loving? How can I help this person come to a faith in Christ?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>21:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt\u2019s not all dependent upon you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Well, and as we\u2019ve said here, it\u2019s in part about getting help for yourself, for your own physical or emotional safety. But it\u2019s also about, \u201cHow can I boldly love another person?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Sometimes the boldest way to love is to say, \u201cNo; no more.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Is to bow up and look them in the eye, or write a letter, or draw that line in the sand, and say, \u201cYou know what? That kind of treatment of me is not going to happen.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes. That\u2019s what the Bible means when it talks about loving confrontation: speaking the truth in love to another person. That\u2019s what it ought to look like and, Leslie, you outline for folks in your book, <em>The Emotionally Destructive Relationship<\/em>: <em>Seeing it, Stopping it, and Surviving it, <\/em>how to confront people like that.We\u2019ve got copies of the book in our <em>FamilyLife<\/em> <em>Today<\/em> Resource Center. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>22:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to encourage our listeners: if what you\u2019ve heard today sounds familiar, go to our website, FamilyLifeToday.com. Click in the upper left-hand corner of the screen where it says, \u201cGo Deeper,\u201d and you\u2019ll find information there about Leslie Vernick\u2019s book, <em>The Emotionally Destructive Relationship.<\/em> You can order from us online at FamilyLifeToday.com, or you can call 1-800-FLTODAY; 1-800-358-6329. Order a copy of the book by calling 1-800 F as in \u201cfamily,\u201d L as in \u201clife,\u201d and then the word \u201cTODAY.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou know, one of the foundations for any kind of healthy relationship is that we renew our minds, that we think as God has taught us to think; we think with the mind of Christ. That\u2019s why it\u2019s so important for couples to be on the same page and to be pursuing oneness; to be asking, \u201cWhat would God have us do in our relationship?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>23:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0\u201cHow can we honor Him \u2013 glorify Him? How can we be of one mind? How can we be united as husband and wife?\u201d FamilyLife has a tool to help couples with that. It\u2019s called the FamilyLife Bible for Couples. This is something we\u2019ve put together so that a husband and wife can go through it together, or you can do it in a small group setting. This week, we\u2019re making this Bible study for couples available to anyone who can help support the ministry with a donation. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are at the midway point of 2014 and a mid-year donation to <em>FamilyLife Today <\/em>would be particularly helpful. This is a time of year when we often hear from fewer listeners than normal, so if you can go online or call us or write a check and mail it to us today, that would be very helpful. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com; click in the upper right-hand corner of the screen where it says, \u201cI CARE,\u201d to make an online donation. Or call 1-800-FLTODAY; you can make your donation over the phone and request the Bible study for couples when you do. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOr you can write a check and mail it to <em>FamilyLife Today <\/em>along with your request for the Bible study. Our mailing address is Post Office Box 7111, Little Rock, Arkansas; our zip code is 72223.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>24:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, tomorrow we want to talk about how you maintain a sense of your own sanity in the midst of an emotionally challenging relationship. Leslie Vernick\u2019s going to be back with us again tomorrow; I hope you can be back with us as well. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHelp for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you.\u00a0 However, there is a cost to produce them for our website.\u00a0 If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2014 FamilyLife.\u00a0 All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0 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Vernick talks about changing an emotionally destructive relationship into a healthy one, beginning with your own behavior and response.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2014-07-01.pdf","transcript_content":"<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Before we dig in and talk about how we turn the tide, how we navigate change in an emotionally destructive relationship; is it even important whether we identify the level of destruction that\u2019s taking place? I talked about this kind of garden variety sinful pattern. I mean, I\u2019ve said things to my wife that I wish I hadn\u2019t said, that have been hurtful, or harmful. She\u2019s said things to me that she wishes she hadn\u2019t said. I wouldn\u2019t say we\u2019re in an emotionally destructive relationship. Is it important to hang a label on that or do we just recognize that wherever we are, we want to get better?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>4:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie: <\/strong>Well, I think that\u2019s part of the key, is to recognize that both of you recognize that you\u2019ve said things that are harmful to each other. James tells us in James 3:2, \u201cWe all stumble in many ways.\u201d So we aren\u2019t going to live with perfect people, and we\u2019re going to live with people who are broken just like us and say bad things.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut a healthy person, when they recognize that they\u2019ve sinned against another person, because they see that person\u2019s hurt or because that person has said, \u201cYou hurt me,\u201d they own it. They take responsibility for it and they work at changing it. An unhealthy person won\u2019t see it, they will blame you for it, they won\u2019t take any responsibility for it and they repeat it over and over again.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe difference between a healthy relationship or a destructive relationship, or a difficult relationship, is one of safety. I think when you feel safe enough to say \u201cOuch!\u201d to somebody, \u201cThat really hurt me.\u201d And the other person says, \u201cYou know, I shouldn\u2019t have said that. I was tired or I lost my temper; I need to get better control of my temper, my words, or whatever,\u201d then you can move on.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>5:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut when someone doesn\u2019t feel even safe enough to tell someone, \u201cThat really hurt me\u201d or \u201cThat really bothers me,\u201d they can\u2019t express their opinion. They can\u2019t be who they are because who they are is unacceptable to the other person. Then it becomes a real destructive relationship.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>We were chuckling, just for a minute, before we came on the air here about the fact that your mother called you a \u201cnincompoop\u201d when you were growing up. [Laughter] Repeatedly right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Oh, yes; I was just reflecting. She could have probably done it in a little more respectful manner, but I knew my mom loved me. My mom and I had a great relationship and it was more of an affectionate term that was saying, \u201cSon, straighten up.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>You didn\u2019t walk away going, \u201cOuch,\u201d or you didn\u2019t walk away thinking, \u201cI really am stupid,\u201d did you?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>No; again, I don\u2019t think so. I mean, as much as I can tell today.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Leslie, here\u2019s my question in all of this.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>A few years have passed since then, you know. [Laughter]\u00a0 It\u2019s like we all carry these little words with us that were said to us by our parents, and some of the statements they made.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Is it possible that in some relationships there\u2019s playful banter that takes place that in another relationship the same kind of pattern would be abusive but in this one it\u2019s not?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>6:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie: <\/strong>Absolutely, as long as both people are in agreement of it. If both people are okay with it, and it\u2019s not hurting anybody and they\u2019re getting something out of their system and they\u2019re fighting and they can manage that without either one of them feeling like they\u2019re scared or they can\u2019t take it or they\u2019re falling apart or it inhibits their growth or that damages them, then it\u2019s okay. I think everybody\u2019s pain threshold is different, whether it\u2019s for physical pain, or relational pain, or emotional pain.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI remember, when I had my first child, we were into Lamaze. I was going to have this natural childbirth. All my friends were telling me, \u201cYou know, it\u2019s a piece of cake; you can do it,\u201d and I couldn\u2019t. I couldn\u2019t do it. Ten hours later I was saying, \u201cGive me drugs!\u00a0 I want drugs now!\u201d [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI felt like such a failure because, for whatever reason, my pain threshold was lower, or I was more sensitive or it hurt me more, or maybe they could take it longer. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>7:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think we do an injustice and we\u2019re very unfair to some people when maybe we could take that, and they can\u2019t. So we\u2019re saying, \u201cYou\u2019re just too sensitive,\u201d but if they\u2019re married to someone who is treating them that way, part of loving that person is to know that they\u2019re sensitive.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>There\u2019s part of me, as we talk about this, I\u2019m just a little concerned that some folks are going to go, \u201cYou know maybe I am in an emotionally destructive relationship. I thought I was okay until today. But maybe it is emotionally destructive.\u201d And what we\u2019ve really done is made them more sensitive to something that they didn\u2019t need to be sensitive to. Does that make sense?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie: <\/strong>I hear you and I think that\u2019s a possibility. If someone is looking to be a victim, they can find it; but there are times when cancer is growing and you don\u2019t know it\u2019s there, so we do need to define what it means. I think by taking the test, that you\u2019re offering on your website, people will have a clear idea: is it just small potatoes or is this something that I\u2019ve felt for a long time and now I have a word to describe it?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>The test you\u2019re talking about is from your book, <em>The Emotionally Destructive Relationship<\/em>. Thirty one questions that help somebody evaluate just how bad is this?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>8:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt\u2019s on our website at FamilyLifeToday.com if our listeners are interested in going there.\u00a0 This would be a helpful diagnostic tool for them.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>It would be good. I found it interesting, Leslie, in your book that you have an entire section that is explaining biblical authority of headship and submission. Now, I\u2019ve got a sneaking suspicion that you have seen, as a counselor, a number of situations where men have overused their authority and where women have given men too much authority.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie: I<\/strong> have, unfortunately, and I think some churches endorse that. I really wanted to be biblical in this book because I speak with so many women and men who are in destructive relationships and they try to go to the place that should give them the most help, which is the church. And they\u2019ve been misled, they\u2019ve been hurt more, they\u2019ve been told, \u201cWell, that\u2019s just how it is. God put him in charge, so you just have to obey and submit.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>9:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tEven if he\u2019s steering the whole family right off the edge of a cliff, you\u2019re not allowed to say \u201cno;\u201d you\u2019re not allowed to jump ship; you\u2019re not allowed to do anything but go over, and the whole kids and family and everybody goes over the cliff.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>We did a series of broadcasts here on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> a number of years ago - Bob\u2019s going to know exactly the ones I\u2019m talking about. We had a counselor from Southern California, and a deputy sheriff from Milwaukee, Wisconsin. We talked about abusive relationships where there was\u2026\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>. . .where there was domestic violence.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>. . . domestic violence. You\u2019ll not be surprised at what they said in that interview. They said that the place that fostered the most of this were extreme fundamentalist churches.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie: <\/strong>I have seen a number of situations like that. I could go story after story after story, so that\u2019s why I felt it was so important for me to clarify all these things with biblical terms, because I want people who are strong believers, who are committed Christians, who are godly people who want to do what God wants them to do, [to know] that God has a plan for them, and he has a way for them to deal with this in a biblical way.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>10:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHeadship - I just want to define this really clearly - is not just getting your own way, which is oftentimes what men who claim headship scripture passages. \u201cThis means I get to make all the decisions. This means I get to do what I want to do and you have no right to contradict that.\u201d That\u2019s not what headship is biblically. Headship is a loving sacrificial service of the other person, and you get to do that first as the head.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSubmission is never something you can make someone do. Submission, godly submission, is done by the person who is doing the submitting and they do it willingly.\u00a0 So as soon as someone forces someone to submit, it\u2019s not biblical submission. It\u2019s called coercion, manipulation, force, or rape sometimes; so it\u2019s not those terms.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes, I have to tell you a story. I think I\u2019ve shared this on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, but I\u2019ll never forget it. I was driving along with a friend of mine; he was in his first year of marriage. I just said, \u201cHow are things going with you and Cathy?\u201d He said, \u201cOh, we\u2019re doing all right.\u201d He said, \u201cShe\u2019s just not really submitting to me the way she ought to.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>11:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI said, \u201cWell, that\u2019s interesting. What makes you think she\u2019s supposed to?\u201d He looked at me like, \u201cWell, you know the Bible. You\u2019ve read the Bible.\u201d I said, \u201cYes, there\u2019s one in the glove compartment. Get it out.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo he got it out and turned to Ephesians chapter five and I said, \u201cSo, what does it say there?\u201d He said, \u201cRight here, it says \u2018Wives submit\u2026\u2019\u201d I said, \u201cStop. What\u2019s the first word there?\u201d \u201cWives.\u201d I said, \u201cAre you a wife?\u201d He said, \u201cNo.\u201d I said, \u201cOK, move on, that verse isn\u2019t for you then. You go onto the one that says \u2018husbands\u2019 and read that part.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tMy point \u2013 and he laughed, he knew what I was trying to say - my point is it\u2019s not your job, if you\u2019re a wife, to get your husband to lead or, if you\u2019re a husband, to get your wife to submit. It\u2019s your responsibility to do what God\u2019s called you to do.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Yes, and Leslie, let\u2019s say right now, there is a woman who is listening to this broadcast and she\u2019s, all of a sudden, moved very close to the radio, or to her iPod or her computer.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>12:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tShe\u2019s going, \u201cI think I\u2019m in a relationship where I\u2019m being abused by a husband who is overreaching his authority and he\u2019s abusing me with it.\u201d How do you stop that?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie: <\/strong>Well, the beginning of change in a destructive relationship starts with you. You have to begin to identify and own your problem. You might say, \u201cWell, that\u2019s not my problem that he\u2019s acting that way.\u201d But when you\u2019re a repeated victim of someone, you have to begin to ask yourself what\u2019s your part? It might just be that you\u2019re not educated or you\u2019re too passive, or you\u2019ve believed the wrong things but there\u2019s something about that that\u2019s kept you in that destructive dance (you\u2019re afraid). So, when you begin to identify your part, then you can begin to make a change because you can\u2019t change another person, you can only start by changing yourself.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>You know, I want to speak to that for a second because I\u2019m thinking of a relationship that I endured for the better part of two decades. What you just described was me. Now, here I am, I know the Bible. I\u2019ve written books about relationships, I teach about relationships.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>13:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI was in a relationship - not a close one that was like my wife or my children, or immediate family - but I was in a relationship that was not healthy. I really did keep on allowing that to occur, so I\u2019ve been there. It\u2019s interesting how we can continue to walk into this thing and be abused over and over and over again. It\u2019s almost like sheep to the slaughter.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>You tell the story in your book about a woman you identify as \u201cCynthia\u201d who came to you who was at this end point in her relationship with her husband and you had to coach her through how to stop it, right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong> I had to coach her through how to stop it and she represents so many other women that I talk with. She wanted to come to counseling for me to somehow give her some magic bullet that would help her to change her husband. I had to help her to understand that I didn\u2019t have that magic bullet; all I could do was help her to stop herself from putting up with this kind of relationship. She was afraid to do that.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>14:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut she couldn\u2019t begin to change it until she was willing to look at herself first.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>What was going on in her relationship with her husband?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie: <\/strong>Well, her husband was continually deceitful; he had committed a number of affairs. He had no real remorse for them. He was indifferent to their relationship; she had to do all the work, all the care of the children, manage all the finances, and he kind of just lived as a single person but with the perks of married life.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>So she comes and says, \u201cHow do I fix this? How do I fix him?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie: <\/strong>\u201cGod wants us to have a good relationship, and I know that God hates divorce, and I really want this marriage to work. How can I get him to change and how can I get him to tell the truth and how can I get him to love me?\u201d All the kind of things that every woman longs for, but you can\u2019t make someone love you. You can\u2019t make someone be honest. You can\u2019t make someone change.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>So what did you tell her to do?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie: <\/strong>So I told her \u201cCynthia, change begins with you, so the question you need to begin to ask yourself is, \u2018Why are you willing to live with a man who treats you this way?\u2019\u201d And she said, \u201cI don\u2019t know? Because I think God wants me to. I\u2019m supposed to stay here.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>15:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt was very difficult for her to begin to look at what her part of it was because loving someone isn\u2019t just allowing them to continue to sin against you with no protest. Loving them well, biblically, means that you begin to speak the truth in love into their life.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Yes, and it\u2019s interesting as we look at the Bible, we know we\u2019re commanded to love our enemies. I think sometimes, and this is what happened in my twenty-year-long relationship, I was doing my best to model to this other person what Christian love was all about. But as it became clear that I was being manipulated, taken advantage of, and really abused, I realized that there was a time that I had to draw a line in the sand and say, \u201cNo more. You\u2019re not going to do that to me anymore.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>You\u2019re saying to the other person, \u201cI\u2019m not going to let you do this because it\u2019s not right for you, as well as being hurtful to me. It\u2019s not loving to you to let you continue in that pattern.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>16:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Right, and the key thing was, I had a choice to be able to draw that line in the sand, and then I had to, as you said earlier, Bob, \u201cbuck up.\u201d I had to stand up and be courageous to stick to it, and not keep walking into an abusive situation to be take advantage of. In my situation, the way I handled it, was I took a friend with me. I took a partner who went with me into the relationship and in the process helped me stay on the right side of the line in the sand.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie: <\/strong>I think it would be really helpful right now to talk about what is a healthy relationship. The difference between a healthy relationship or a destructive relationship is one in which there\u2019s mutual caring, mutual honesty, and mutual respect.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf we just talk about respect, one of the things that I\u2019ve found in a relationship that\u2019s been destructive in my life is that this person, whenever I say \u201cno,\u201d there\u2019s this manipulative guilt that comes in. There\u2019s these boundary pushings. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>17:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI\u2019m not allowed to say no.\u00a0 I\u2019m not allowed to have boundaries or I\u2019m a bad person. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong> So it doesn\u2019t lend to a healthy relationship. The operative word here in mutual caring, mutual honesty, and mutual respect is \u201cmutual.\u201d So, we can have ministry to certain people, who may have needs and God calls us to minister to our enemies. But don\u2019t confuse that with healthy relationship, and that\u2019s what you began to say, \u201cI can\u2019t have a healthy relationship with this person. I may be able to minister to them here and there, but I can\u2019t have this relationship.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>I think what you just summarized there is very important because that was the conclusion I came to. Number one, I was kidding myself to think I could have healthy relationship with someone where there couldn\u2019t be any mutual love and respect.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie: <\/strong>Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>It wasn\u2019t happening.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie: <\/strong>They wanted you to care for them but they weren\u2019t caring for you, right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Exactly; but, secondly, I had to come to the conclusion that I couldn\u2019t have a relationship at all. Now, it\u2019s one thing, Leslie, if the person I\u2019m relating to is miles away and I\u2019m not in marriage with them. . . \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>18:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t. . . but speak to the person right now who\u2019s married to the person who, first they realize they can\u2019t have a healthy relationship and secondly they\u2019re not even sure they can achieve a real relationship with them.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie: <\/strong>That is the dilemma and you can make a marriage better all by yourself. You cannot make a marriage work or a marriage good all by yourself. It takes mutual effort, mutual caring, mutual honesty, and mutual respect. So, I think sometimes the burden of making a marriage good has been put on someone\u2019s shoulders as their sole responsibility and they\u2019ve taken it, and it\u2019s not possible. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think one of the things we need to do is just help people understand what it takes to have a good healthy relationship. If someone is in that situation though, especially in a marriage, what I coach them to do is, if they begin to get healthier, then they can begin to invite their partner into healthy change; because, when you\u2019re in a marriage, you\u2019re sort of like dancing with somebody.\u00a0 When you\u2019re dancing with someone, and it\u2019s fine with them that they\u2019re stepping on your toes, and they\u2019re kicking you in the shins, but it\u2019s not fine with you, you need to begin to speak up and say, \u201cYou know, this hurts me, I don\u2019t like this.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>19:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd, oftentimes, if you\u2019ve never done that before, and you\u2019ve been in a destructive relationship, if the other person cares about you, they will begin to hear you.\u00a0 Sometimes they don\u2019t, and you need to up the ante. That\u2019s when you begin to stand up and say, \u201cI can\u2019t allow myself to be treated this way anymore.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>You know, it\u2019s really interesting, I\u2019ve now lived enough life that I still have a lot of idealism, but it\u2019s been edited by reality.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie: <\/strong>Yes, me too.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Relationships are probably the number one editor of reality in my life. It doesn\u2019t mean we should lose our hope, and it doesn\u2019t mean we should revert to fleshly ways of dealing with relationships. In fact, as you were talking, I was thinking about a passage in Romans 12 that says, \u201cNever be conceited, repay no one evil for evil.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>20:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong><strong>\u201c<\/strong>But give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all.\u201d Then it adds something that you alluded to a little earlier. It says, \u201cIf possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all.\u201d It goes on to say, \u201cBeloved, never avenge yourselves; leave room for the wrath of God.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think sometimes we lose sight of who God is in these relationships. It may be, at points, that we need to take a step back and pray for the person who is abusing us and pray that God will - not necessarily get even, but - get his attention, or get her attention, and begin to take a step back and get healthy in your relationship with that other person; because, if you don\u2019t, you\u2019re going to keep on walking in there as I described how I did for 20 years. You\u2019re going to keep on getting hurt. You\u2019re going to leave that relationship going, \u201cMan, how can I do a better job of loving? How can I help this person come to a faith in Christ?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>21:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt\u2019s not all dependent upon you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Well, and as we\u2019ve said here, it\u2019s in part about getting help for yourself, for your own physical or emotional safety. But it\u2019s also about, \u201cHow can I boldly love another person?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Sometimes the boldest way to love is to say, \u201cNo; no more.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Is to bow up and look them in the eye, or write a letter, or draw that line in the sand, and say, \u201cYou know what? That kind of treatment of me is not going to happen.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Yes. That\u2019s what the Bible means when it talks about loving confrontation: speaking the truth in love to another person. That\u2019s what it ought to look like and, Leslie, you outline for folks in your book, <em>The Emotionally Destructive Relationship<\/em>: <em>Seeing it, Stopping it, and Surviving it, <\/em>how to confront people like that.We\u2019ve got copies of the book in our <em>FamilyLife<\/em> <em>Today<\/em> Resource Center. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>22:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to encourage our listeners: if what you\u2019ve heard today sounds familiar, go to our website, FamilyLifeToday.com. Click in the upper left-hand corner of the screen where it says, \u201cGo Deeper,\u201d and you\u2019ll find information there about Leslie Vernick\u2019s book, <em>The Emotionally Destructive Relationship.<\/em> You can order from us online at FamilyLifeToday.com, or you can call 1-800-FLTODAY; 1-800-358-6329. Order a copy of the book by calling 1-800 F as in \u201cfamily,\u201d L as in \u201clife,\u201d and then the word \u201cTODAY.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou know, one of the foundations for any kind of healthy relationship is that we renew our minds, that we think as God has taught us to think; we think with the mind of Christ. That\u2019s why it\u2019s so important for couples to be on the same page and to be pursuing oneness; to be asking, \u201cWhat would God have us do in our relationship?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>23:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0\u201cHow can we honor Him \u2013 glorify Him? How can we be of one mind? How can we be united as husband and wife?\u201d FamilyLife has a tool to help couples with that. It\u2019s called the FamilyLife Bible for Couples. This is something we\u2019ve put together so that a husband and wife can go through it together, or you can do it in a small group setting. This week, we\u2019re making this Bible study for couples available to anyone who can help support the ministry with a donation. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are at the midway point of 2014 and a mid-year donation to <em>FamilyLife Today <\/em>would be particularly helpful. This is a time of year when we often hear from fewer listeners than normal, so if you can go online or call us or write a check and mail it to us today, that would be very helpful. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com; click in the upper right-hand corner of the screen where it says, \u201cI CARE,\u201d to make an online donation. Or call 1-800-FLTODAY; you can make your donation over the phone and request the Bible study for couples when you do. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOr you can write a check and mail it to <em>FamilyLife Today <\/em>along with your request for the Bible study. Our mailing address is Post Office Box 7111, Little Rock, Arkansas; our zip code is 72223.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>24:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, tomorrow we want to talk about how you maintain a sense of your own sanity in the midst of an emotionally challenging relationship. Leslie Vernick\u2019s going to be back with us again tomorrow; I hope you can be back with us as well. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHelp for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you.\u00a0 However, there is a cost to produce them for our website.\u00a0 If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2014 FamilyLife.\u00a0 All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\t1\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>","theme_header_position":"","post_header_is_sticky":"","is_header_overlay":""},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/303103","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/91"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=303103"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/294104"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=303103"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=303103"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=303103"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=303103"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=303103"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=303103"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}