{"id":303101,"date":"2014-06-30T11:00:00","date_gmt":"2014-06-30T15:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/diagnosing-an-emotionally-destructive-relationship\/"},"modified":"2014-06-30T11:00:00","modified_gmt":"2014-06-30T15:00:00","slug":"diagnosing-an-emotionally-destructive-relationship","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/diagnosing-an-emotionally-destructive-relationship\/","title":{"rendered":"Diagnosing an Emotionally Destructive Relationship"},"content":{"rendered":"","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Are you in an emotionally destructive relationship?  Leslie Vernick talks about the abuse she suffered and lists some of the tell-tale signs of an emotionally abusive relationship.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2014-06-30.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:","filesize":"22.82M","filesize_raw":"23932528","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2873],"tags":[2949,4647,4197,5366,5333],"podcast_series":[7719],"cwp_profile":[3229],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-303101","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-mental-and-emotional-issues","tag-abuse","tag-emotional","tag-healing","tag-protection","tag-restoration","podcast_series-the-emotionally-destructive-relationship","cwp_profile-leslie-vernick","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/303101\/diagnosing-an-emotionally-destructive-relationship","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/303101\/diagnosing-an-emotionally-destructive-relationship","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"G5BWURjRec\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/diagnosing-an-emotionally-destructive-relationship\/\">Diagnosing an Emotionally Destructive Relationship<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/diagnosing-an-emotionally-destructive-relationship\/embed\/#?secret=G5BWURjRec\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Diagnosing an Emotionally Destructive Relationship&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"G5BWURjRec\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2014-06-30.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2014-06-30.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>You know that the Bible calls us as Christians to unconditional love for others. That\u2019s easy when somebody is loving you back. But what do you do when a relationship becomes emotionally destructive? That\u2019s what Leslie Vernick had to ultimately confront in her relationship with her mom.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>I remember writing her a letter talking to her about my childhood and asking her to take some responsibility for that. I thought that if I confronted her in a godly way she would somehow say she was sorry, \u201cI wish I had been a better mother.\u201d I never got that. In fact I got another hateful letter back. So that really was the sealing for me that I was not going to contact her again. Because any contact I did have was negative and destructive.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em><strong><sup>\u00ae<\/sup><\/strong> for Monday, June 30<sup>th<\/sup>. Our host is the President of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey and I'm Bob Lepine. We\u2019ll talk today about what our responsibility is as Christians when we\u2019re involved in emotionally destructive relationships. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>1:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, thanks for joining us. I have to be honest here, okay. You have had people, I\u2019ve had people who have come up to me and they will say, \u201cI am in an emotionally abusive relationship.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>When I hear that, there\u2019s part of me wondering just how bad is it really? You know? Is this somebody who is just overly sensitive to their environment and what they\u2019re describing as emotional abuse, you just want to say, \u201cJust buck up and grow up.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOr, is it really something where they\u2019re experiencing some kind of cruel emotional abuse, manipulation, all of that on a regular basis? It\u2019s hard to know when all somebody says to you is, \u201cI\u2019m in an emotionally abusive relationship.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>2:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s even more difficult to know what to say to that person. We want to provide hope and help and provide a way of escape, not from the relationship, but from the abuse. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIn times like that you really need the help of a wise counselor, someone to come alongside you and give some coaching. I think we\u2019ve got the person here who can provide that kind of wise counsel for you. Leslie Vernick joins us on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Leslie, welcome back.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>I am really glad to be here, especially on this topic.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>I know you are. Leslie is an author of a number of books. She is a licensed clinical social worker, and has counseled families for more than 25 years. She has been married to her husband Howard for more than 32 years, has two grown children and has written a book that I really want to commend to you for reading, called <em>The Emotionally Destructive Relationship<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>3:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt\u2019s subtitled, <em>Seeing it, Stopping it, Surviving it. <\/em>Leslie I was curious as I read your book, to find that this really came out of a relationship, a close family relationship that you endured for more than 15 years.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Well, I did. When I was a child my mother was not stable and she divorced my father when I was eight years old. I was oldest. She took us to live in a small apartment in Chicago. I got the couch, and my brother and sister got to sleep on the floor. My mother was an alcoholic and she was bipolar. Her bipolar swings would go into the manic, not the depression side. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo she would be cruel, angry, unreasonable, irrational, and sometimes psychotic. Of course we were children and we didn\u2019t understand that. We didn\u2019t really know what was going on. We just knew it was scary to live at home. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI tended to have the biggest buck and the biggest mouth. I\u2019d buck her some, I\u2019d come back at her, which got me in more trouble with her than my other siblings. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>4:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think I reminded her most of my father, and she was very angry with him. So, I got the brunt of her abuse. But it was very difficult. Finally when I was fourteen-years-old, my father won custody. I didn\u2019t realize, but for years he had been petitioning the courts for years to get custody of us due to my mom\u2019s behavior.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>I want you to continue your story but just to give our listeners a little bit of insight into what a young person feels and experiences in a family setting like that. What one word would you use to best describe what you felt in that relationship with your mom?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>I think two words would best describe it. One is \u201cconfusion,\u201d because, there were days when she was really great. So, was I with a mom who loved me, or was I with a mom who hated me? Both\u2014both and, it wasn\u2019t either or.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>You didn\u2019t understand bipolar or any of that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>No. I didn\u2019t even know the diagnosis. No.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Did you know she was drinking?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>I didn\u2019t.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>5:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>So, her erratic behavior was something you didn\u2019t have any framework or context for.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>None.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>So, one word is \u201cconfusing,\u201d what\u2019s the other one.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>\u201cScared.\u201d Feeling constantly scared. You don\u2019t know what you\u2019re coming into. I remember walking in the door one day, we had a puppy. Her name was Chocolate, and she had chewed up the couch cushions. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe had seen that probably weeks before but we just turned them over on the other side because we didn\u2019t want our mom to know. Because she would have been mad. When we walked in the door the cushions were turned up on the other side, so we knew she knew. So we all, just closed the door and went out. Because you didn\u2019t know what was going to happen. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen you went in and she was in one of those moods, you were really scared. So you felt scared a lot. There were a lot of times when she didn\u2019t come home all night. I was the oldest and I felt really scared.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Wow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>What might have happened? What were some of the things you saw your mom do or experience that you look back on and say, \u201cThat was really emotionally destructive and abusive.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>I\u2019ll give you two examples. They were the same thing that I did. I was polishing my shoes and I spilled shoe polish on the linoleum floor, twice. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>6:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOne of the times, I did it; I was told I was worthless and stupid. I was beaten. Another time I did it, it was like, \u201cI can\u2019t believe you did this again, clean it up,\u201d maybe more of a normal parent reaction. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo it was that kind of thing. If you wash the dishes the same way one night, it was fine. If you wash the dishes the same way the next night, I remember one time her slapping my face and my face went through the window of the back door. That\u2019s how hard she slapped it. You just never knew what was going to really happen. So it was very frightening.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>It might have been easier for you if the behavior had been more consistent. Do you think?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>I don\u2019t know if it would have been easier, maybe I wouldn\u2019t have felt as confused. But I think\u2014at least my experience as a person, and also my experience working with lots of people who have been abused as a child, they\u2019re still confused because they really do see some good in their parent, and it\u2019s not all bad all the time. And true in an emotionally destructive relationship, whether it\u2019s a parent or a husband or wife. Or, you\u2019re with somebody, in church ministry that\u2019s destructive. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>7:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThey\u2019re not all bad. There are some good things to that. So it does get confusing.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Let\u2019s get back to the story then. Your father was able to get custody?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Yes, so when I was fourteen-years-old my father called us and said, \u201cI\u2019m coming to pick you. I\u2019ve won custody.\u201d Now, we weren\u2019t\u2014at least for me, my brother and sister were happy to go\u2014but for me, by this time I was fourteen years old. I did whatever I wanted because my mother was often not home. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, although I endured her abuse, I had a lot of freedom as a fourteen-year-old, and I liked that. My father was now a Christian. He was going to church. He lived in the suburbs. I didn\u2019t have transportation. I had lived in the city of Chicago I could go wherever I wanted whenever I wanted. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, I did not want to move in with him. I didn\u2019t take to this change very gracefully. But, my father\u2019s consistent love and my new stepmother\u2019s love for me really began to soften my heart. But I wasn\u2019t, \u201cOh yes, now I\u2019m going to a stable home.\u201d I was like, \u201cThis is boring. I don\u2019t want to go there. I like where I\u2019m at.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>When could you look back on your relationship with your mother and say, that was what it was: destructive, abusive. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>8:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen did you begin to realize some perspective to say, \u201cI see what that was now.\u201d?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Well, I think I always knew that she was scary and out of control. I don\u2019t know that I would have used the word \u201cabusive.\u201d I think I just would have used the word \u201cscary\u201d or \u201cbad mother,\u201d those kind of things. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI remember one time; she threw me down the stairs and broke my front teeth, and didn\u2019t really get them fixed until I went to live with my dad. I had temporary caps that looked horrible\u2014those silver caps that you\u2019d wear, it was very humiliating as a girl growing up with ugly teeth. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut I remember when I was in college trying to talk to her about that. She made it out to be my fault. That she didn\u2019t really do anything. That I tripped, and she was just disciplining me as any normal parent. That was worse than anything. I think if she had admitted it, and she had been able to own it and take responsibility for it and say, \u201cYou know I was really sorry. I\u2019m drinking. I wasn\u2019t being a good mom at the time.\u201d I think the damage wouldn\u2019t have been so severe. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>9:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut, I think when you confront someone on what they do\u2014there were several times in our life she would give me money at college. I hadn\u2019t seen her much but she would send me money, and then she would say I stole it from her. So, you never knew. I was afraid to take anything from her because I didn\u2018t know what it would cost me in the end. So, we began to have a lot of distance in our relationship, and she eventually moved away and we didn\u2019t have any contact at all.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Ultimately your relationship went dark. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Our relationship went dark. She moved to Florida. Over that time from age 14 to about 22, we had sporadic contact. She would visit us sporadically with my brother and sister. But, she really didn\u2019t get involved. She didn\u2019t attend any of our weddings. She never saw any of her grandchildren being born. We adopted a little girl from Korea, she never saw that. She knew about it for a long time. She moved away, and just chose not to stay in touch with any of us. Not just me, but my brother or sister.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAs a Christian, and as a Christian counselor, I really struggle with that. Because how do I navigate that in a biblical way? How do I honor my parent, how do I love my mother? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>10:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHow do I forgive her? And how do I send her a Mother\u2019s Day Card? All those things were very hard when we had no relationship.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Leslie, in your relationship with your mom, she was both physically abusive and emotionally abusive.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Anyone who is physically abusive is also emotionally abusive.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Okay. But aren\u2019t there case where there are some people who are strictly emotionally abusive?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Absolutely. There are times when there is no physical touch going on that wounds someone. But words are used as weapons. And they can be used to control, they can be used to punish, they can be used to manipulate, intimidate, and threaten someone. That really was the ceiling for me that I was not going to contact her again, because any contact I did have was negative and destructive. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Did you see any patterns in your own life, in your own actions as a wife and a mom, that you said, you know, \u201cI think some of this is spilling out of my pores?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong>\u00a0 I tell a story about this in my book, because I think that when we talk about emotionally destructive relationships, they\u2019re not always easily detected. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>11:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo a single incident of abuse does not make an emotionally destructive relationship, or even a physically destructive relationship, because there are times when we do something because of our own background or we\u2019re just not even paying attention, and we repeat things from our childhood. But if we can take responsibility and own it, and stop it, and get help for it, then it can change and become a much better relationship. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen my little boy was two, he was throwing fit, and I can\u2019t remember if it was a department store or grocery store\u2014I think it was a department store\u2014I was trying on some clothes, and he did what two-year-olds do; he dropped himself to the floor and kicked and screamed and didn\u2019t want to sit there anymore, and in a moment of anger I yanked him to his feet by his arm. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThen, in the midst of that, he started howling even louder, announcing to the entire store that I broke his arm, and his arm is dangling by the elbow. That terrified me, and I grabbed him and put him in his car seat and rushed him to the emergency room. I told the doctor what I did, I said, \u201cI pulled him up by his arm.\u201d Luckily, his arm was not broken; it was just dislocated at his elbow. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>12:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut at that point I thought, \u201cWow, I reacted just like my mother, and I have to do something different about this. I have to get a hold of my anger, because \u201cout of the overflow of our hearts, our mouths speak.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo what came out of my mouth and my behavior that day showed that I had a very angry heart at that moment, and a tendency to be abusive. And I didn\u2019t want that ever to come out again. I wanted to work on that so that I didn\u2019t become what I had been raised with.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Leslie, you said just a moment ago that people\u2019s lack of understanding of what a destructive relationship looks like and feels like and what the experience is like really keeps many people from understanding what they\u2019re going through. Give us a very simple working definition for what you would characterize as a destructive relationship. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>It\u2019s not characterized by one single incident, but rather it\u2019s a repetitive pattern of behaviors or attitudes that result in either tearing someone down or inhibiting someone\u2019s growth. So you\u2019re tearing them down with your attitudes or your words. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>13:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOr you\u2019re hindering their growth. That can be done in a variety of different ways. But it\u2019s also accompanied by a lack of responsibility. You\u2019re not taking responsibility for it, a lack of awareness, a lack of remorse and a lack of change. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, it\u2019s not just the action or the attitude, but it\u2019s also the response when someone says, \u201cOuch! Don\u2019t! I don\u2019t like that!\u201d The other person says, \u201cWhat are you talking about? You\u2019re too sensitive. It\u2019s your problem. I didn\u2019t do that.\u201d So they don\u2019t have any personal responsibility or accountability for what they did, so therefore there is no working it through.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>I would imagine there might be mom or a dad who may be listening right now and they may have missed the phrase, the little statement you made, it\u2019s not a one-time event or even a sporadic event. It\u2019s a pattern. It\u2019s a habit. It\u2019s an ongoing problem. The reason I say that is, what parent hasn\u2019t lost control at some point and gotten angry at their child, and maybe said some things or looked at the child or done something? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>14:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAt that point, that doesn\u2019t necessarily indicate they\u2019re in a destructive relationship with their child and doing them harm. Now, it doesn\u2019t do them any good obviously. But we\u2019re talking about something that is really habitual and it\u2019s the pattern of relating. Right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Yes, it\u2019s the pattern of relating but it also\u2014all you have to do is shoot a gun one time at someone and they\u2019re dead. So, sometimes there are some incidents of abuse that\u2019s just as lethal one time. So when we\u2019re talking about physical abuse, I don\u2019t think we can say, \u201cWell, it\u2019s only sporadic so we\u2019re not going to take it as a serious thing.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI had a client once who, the first time her husband abused her he pushed her, and then he didn\u2019t do anything else. He was mean and surly in lots of other ways. But the second time he abused her, she\u2019d told him not to salt his meat because she\u2019d already put salt in it, and he didn\u2019t like that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>15:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo he got up and threw his food at her face and choked her by the sink. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat was a few years later. The third time he abused her he held a loaded gun to her head in front of her children. So that was three times in fifteen years. But each of those times it was getting progressively serious and more progressively dangerous. The first time was too many times. The second time was too many times. So I don\u2019t want to minimize the consequences of a physically abusive relationship. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnother destructive type of relationship is one in which there is a lot of deceit going on. Oftentimes, when there\u2019s a lot of deceit going on in a relationship and someone\u2019s not willing to own it, it doesn\u2019t matter if it only happens three times in five years. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt breaks trust down and if they can\u2019t own it and work on it and do it, it\u2019s hard to rebuild that relationship. So, it may not be very frequent, but it is this pattern that someone will not own, will not take responsibility for and will not change that makes it destructive.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>You mention lying and deceit as one of the characteristics of an unhealthy relationship. In fact, you list I think five of them in the book.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>16:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Five of them, yes. And abuse is one of them. So any time there\u2019s any kind of physical, emotional abuse, verbal abuse, spiritual abuse, and sexual abuse, any kind of that in a relationship, it\u2019s destructive, hands down. But there are some other kinds of relationships that aren\u2019t so obvious as that. The abusive ones are obvious. But one is when someone\u2019s controlling over another person, and they may not use verbal abuse to be controlling. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOftentimes spiritual abuse is under this category. They\u2019re not cursing at someone they\u2019re not calling them names. They\u2019re just, sort of, having his superior attitude, that somehow, \u201cI have a hotline to God and I know better than you what\u2019s good for you, and you\u2019d better do it my way or you\u2019re going to be a sinner and you\u2019ll be disobeying God and some bad things are going to happen to you.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tParents can do that to their adult children, husbands can do that to their wives under the guise of headship, pastors can do that to their parishioners under the guise of, \u201cI\u2019m the pastor and I get my way.\u201d That can inhibit someone\u2019s growth or tear someone down. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>17:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tA relationship that is repetitively deceitful, I\u2019m not just talking about blatant lying. I\u2019m also talking about misleading, pretending, making things look one way when it\u2019s really another, making yourself appear that you\u2019re one person and you\u2019re really not. So someone believes that you\u2019re saying this, but you\u2019re really not. You\u2019re not giving the whole story and that undermines trust. When that happens repeatedly in a relationship it becomes destructive. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnother kind is when someone is overly dependent this becomes very destructive because I\u2019m depending on you to fill up my entire tank, to define me, to make me a whole person, and to make me happy. When I lean on you so hard, that it makes you want to push me back and say, \u201cGrow up, get off of me.\u201d I\u2019m asking you to be my god, and that can be destructive to me and to the relationship. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe last kind of destructive relationship is when there is indifference. We don\u2019t talk about this much in the Christian community, but when you marry someone there\u2019s an actual commitment to love. So when there\u2019s indifference, \u201cI don\u2019t care, do what you want. I don\u2019t care how you feel.\u201d You tell me something that bothers you and, \u201cToo bad, that\u2019s your problem.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>\u00a0Abandonment?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>18:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Abandonment emotionally, abandonment physically, there\u2019s this indifference to the other person\u2019s feelings, thoughts or needs. That can be very destructive because I thought you promised to love me, and when you act as if I don\u2019t even exist, and that I\u2019m not important to you, it\u2019s very hurtful and it can be destructive to some people.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>\u00a0In your book you actually have a series of questions. With your permission what I\u2019d like to do is take these 31 questions and put them on the internet and allow people to take this diagnostic test. Because you give people a chance to circle whether this never happens, seldom happens, sometimes, frequently or almost always. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou\u2019ve got different categories for how people can answer them. But they really touch on all five of these destructive relationships, and it helps people. I really like the questions because it\u2019ll help them identify if they are perpetrating a destructive relationship upon a child or a spouse.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>19:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>So, for example there\u2019s a question like: \u201cDoes the person control family money, giving you little or no say?\u201d And you say, \u201cWell, no she never does that\u201d or \u201cHe never does that...\u201d sometimes, seldom, frequently, and almost always.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>I was speaking, last week and I had just had a woman who came up to me and she had been a former client of mine. Her husband is very, very controlling\u2014never physically abusive, but very controlling especially around money. I said to her, \u201cHow are you doing?\u201d And she said, \u201cWell, he gave me an allowance of $50 a week, that\u2019s all I\u2019m allowed to have.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat happens in that kind of relationship it becomes a parent-child relationship and it\u2019s not healthy for a woman to be treated as a child in a marriage. He\u2019s controlling all the money; he\u2019s deciding who gets what. It\u2019s not like they\u2019re deciding that together. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf they were deciding that together \u201cThis is how much money we have, and this is all we can spend this week\u2026\u201d Then that\u2019s a mutual adult-adult decision. But when someone has all the power in the relationship and controls another person in terms of their time or their space or their money, then it becomes controlling and destructive. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>20:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo these questions will illustrate different areas of destructiveness.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>We\u2019ve put this on our website at FamilyLifeToday.com, so if our listeners are interested in taking this inventory and really checking and saying, is the relationship I\u2019m in, would it qualify as an emotionally destructive relationship? There\u2019s a good way to tell by working your way through these questions.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>\u00a0I guess I\u2019d just like to apply a scripture here, because I think one of the most important ingredients of any healthy relationship is really found in Ephesians 5:21, it says, \u201cSubmitting to one another out of reverence to Christ.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat it\u2019s talking about there is really looking out for the other person\u2019s interests and submitting yourself to them and their needs and if need be, take a step back, look in the mirror of scripture and do a little self-analysis of how you re relating to another person. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>21:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tPerhaps you have a blind spot and you need the Spirit of God to reveal to you that you have some unhealthy patterns in how you\u2019re relating to a child, your spouse, perhaps a family member, and then begin to ask God to do some business. Bob, I think Leslie\u2019s book here is really going to be of great value to people who are serious about changing some habits and patterns in their relationships. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Well, I think it\u2019s going to help those who may recognize that things aren\u2019t right in their relationship and may think to themselves, \u201cI know what the source of this is,\u201d only to find out that oftentimes they are co-contributors to this emotionally destructive relationship, whether it\u2019s a marriage relationship or a parent-child relationship.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe have copies of Leslie\u2019s book, <em>The Emotionally Destructive Relationship<\/em>, in our FamilyLife Today Resource Center. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>22:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to encourage you to go to FamilyLifeToday.com to find out more about how to order a copy of the book. Again, go to FamilyLifeToday.com, click in the upper left-hand corner where it says \u201cGo Deeper\u201d, and there you\u2019ll find a copy of Leslie\u2019s book. You can order from us online if you\u2019d like, or you can order by calling 1-800-FLTODAY. So again, the website FamilyLifeToday.com, or call 1-800-358-6329. That\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word \u201cTODAY\u201d.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWell, we are at the halfway point of the year, and I want to thank those of you who have stood with us in the first six months of 2014. Because we are a listener-supported program, your support over the past six months has enabled all that we do here at FamilyLife Today to happen. More than 60% of our annual budget comes from donations from folks like you, who say, \u201cWe believe in what you\u2019re doing, and we want to see it continue.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>23:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cWe appreciate the radio program; we want to help cover the cost of producing and syndicating FamilyLife Today.\u201d Thank you for partnering with us in this mission. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThis week, if you can help support this ministry, we\u2019d like to say thank you by sending you the FamilyLife <em>Bible Study for Couples<\/em>. This is a Bible study designed to walk through some of the core issues that we face in marriage, to see what the Bible has to say about those issues, and it\u2019s something that a husband and wife could sit down and work through together, or it\u2019s something that you could do with other couples in your community or in your church. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe FamilyLife <em>Bible Study for Couples<\/em> is our thank-you gift when you make a donation. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com, click the button in the upper right-hand corner of the screen that says \u201cI Care\u201d and make an online donation, or call 1-800-FLTODAY and make a donation over the phone. Just mention you\u2019d like the <em>Bible Study for Couples<\/em> when you do that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOr, you can mail a check to FamilyLife Today. Our mailing address is FamilyLife Today, box 7111, Little Rock, Arkansas, and our zip code is 72223. Again, if you\u2019re interested in the Bible study, include a note when you mail in your check, and we\u2019ll send it to you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, tomorrow we\u2019re going to talk more about what to do if you find yourself in a relationship that is emotionally destructive. Leslie Vernick is with us this week; hope you can be with us as well.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHelp for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2014 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a> \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\t1\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>"],"_seopress_titles_title":[""],"_seopress_titles_desc":[""],"_seopress_robots_index":[""],"duration":["00:"],"show_notes":[""],"_thumbnail_id":["294104"],"filesize":["22.82M"],"filesize_raw":["23932528"],"_uag_css_file_name":["uag-css-303101.css"],"_uag_js_file_name":["uag-js-303101.js"],"_uag_page_assets":["a:9:{s:3:\"css\";s:82560:\".wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-top svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-top .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-bottom svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-bottom 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you in an emotionally destructive relationship? Leslie Vernick talks about the abuse she suffered and lists some of the tell-tale signs of an emotionally abusive relationship.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2014-06-30.pdf","transcript_content":"<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>You know that the Bible calls us as Christians to unconditional love for others. That\u2019s easy when somebody is loving you back. But what do you do when a relationship becomes emotionally destructive? That\u2019s what Leslie Vernick had to ultimately confront in her relationship with her mom.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>I remember writing her a letter talking to her about my childhood and asking her to take some responsibility for that. I thought that if I confronted her in a godly way she would somehow say she was sorry, \u201cI wish I had been a better mother.\u201d I never got that. In fact I got another hateful letter back. So that really was the sealing for me that I was not going to contact her again. Because any contact I did have was negative and destructive.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em><strong><sup>\u00ae<\/sup><\/strong> for Monday, June 30<sup>th<\/sup>. Our host is the President of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey and I'm Bob Lepine. We\u2019ll talk today about what our responsibility is as Christians when we\u2019re involved in emotionally destructive relationships. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>1:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, thanks for joining us. I have to be honest here, okay. You have had people, I\u2019ve had people who have come up to me and they will say, \u201cI am in an emotionally abusive relationship.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>When I hear that, there\u2019s part of me wondering just how bad is it really? You know? Is this somebody who is just overly sensitive to their environment and what they\u2019re describing as emotional abuse, you just want to say, \u201cJust buck up and grow up.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOr, is it really something where they\u2019re experiencing some kind of cruel emotional abuse, manipulation, all of that on a regular basis? It\u2019s hard to know when all somebody says to you is, \u201cI\u2019m in an emotionally abusive relationship.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>2:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s even more difficult to know what to say to that person. We want to provide hope and help and provide a way of escape, not from the relationship, but from the abuse. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIn times like that you really need the help of a wise counselor, someone to come alongside you and give some coaching. I think we\u2019ve got the person here who can provide that kind of wise counsel for you. Leslie Vernick joins us on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Leslie, welcome back.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>I am really glad to be here, especially on this topic.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>I know you are. Leslie is an author of a number of books. She is a licensed clinical social worker, and has counseled families for more than 25 years. She has been married to her husband Howard for more than 32 years, has two grown children and has written a book that I really want to commend to you for reading, called <em>The Emotionally Destructive Relationship<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>3:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt\u2019s subtitled, <em>Seeing it, Stopping it, Surviving it. <\/em>Leslie I was curious as I read your book, to find that this really came out of a relationship, a close family relationship that you endured for more than 15 years.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Well, I did. When I was a child my mother was not stable and she divorced my father when I was eight years old. I was oldest. She took us to live in a small apartment in Chicago. I got the couch, and my brother and sister got to sleep on the floor. My mother was an alcoholic and she was bipolar. Her bipolar swings would go into the manic, not the depression side. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo she would be cruel, angry, unreasonable, irrational, and sometimes psychotic. Of course we were children and we didn\u2019t understand that. We didn\u2019t really know what was going on. We just knew it was scary to live at home. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI tended to have the biggest buck and the biggest mouth. I\u2019d buck her some, I\u2019d come back at her, which got me in more trouble with her than my other siblings. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>4:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think I reminded her most of my father, and she was very angry with him. So, I got the brunt of her abuse. But it was very difficult. Finally when I was fourteen-years-old, my father won custody. I didn\u2019t realize, but for years he had been petitioning the courts for years to get custody of us due to my mom\u2019s behavior.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>I want you to continue your story but just to give our listeners a little bit of insight into what a young person feels and experiences in a family setting like that. What one word would you use to best describe what you felt in that relationship with your mom?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>I think two words would best describe it. One is \u201cconfusion,\u201d because, there were days when she was really great. So, was I with a mom who loved me, or was I with a mom who hated me? Both\u2014both and, it wasn\u2019t either or.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>You didn\u2019t understand bipolar or any of that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>No. I didn\u2019t even know the diagnosis. No.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Did you know she was drinking?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>I didn\u2019t.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>5:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>So, her erratic behavior was something you didn\u2019t have any framework or context for.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>None.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>So, one word is \u201cconfusing,\u201d what\u2019s the other one.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>\u201cScared.\u201d Feeling constantly scared. You don\u2019t know what you\u2019re coming into. I remember walking in the door one day, we had a puppy. Her name was Chocolate, and she had chewed up the couch cushions. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe had seen that probably weeks before but we just turned them over on the other side because we didn\u2019t want our mom to know. Because she would have been mad. When we walked in the door the cushions were turned up on the other side, so we knew she knew. So we all, just closed the door and went out. Because you didn\u2019t know what was going to happen. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen you went in and she was in one of those moods, you were really scared. So you felt scared a lot. There were a lot of times when she didn\u2019t come home all night. I was the oldest and I felt really scared.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Wow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>What might have happened? What were some of the things you saw your mom do or experience that you look back on and say, \u201cThat was really emotionally destructive and abusive.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>I\u2019ll give you two examples. They were the same thing that I did. I was polishing my shoes and I spilled shoe polish on the linoleum floor, twice. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>6:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOne of the times, I did it; I was told I was worthless and stupid. I was beaten. Another time I did it, it was like, \u201cI can\u2019t believe you did this again, clean it up,\u201d maybe more of a normal parent reaction. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo it was that kind of thing. If you wash the dishes the same way one night, it was fine. If you wash the dishes the same way the next night, I remember one time her slapping my face and my face went through the window of the back door. That\u2019s how hard she slapped it. You just never knew what was going to really happen. So it was very frightening.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>It might have been easier for you if the behavior had been more consistent. Do you think?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>I don\u2019t know if it would have been easier, maybe I wouldn\u2019t have felt as confused. But I think\u2014at least my experience as a person, and also my experience working with lots of people who have been abused as a child, they\u2019re still confused because they really do see some good in their parent, and it\u2019s not all bad all the time. And true in an emotionally destructive relationship, whether it\u2019s a parent or a husband or wife. Or, you\u2019re with somebody, in church ministry that\u2019s destructive. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>7:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThey\u2019re not all bad. There are some good things to that. So it does get confusing.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Let\u2019s get back to the story then. Your father was able to get custody?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Yes, so when I was fourteen-years-old my father called us and said, \u201cI\u2019m coming to pick you. I\u2019ve won custody.\u201d Now, we weren\u2019t\u2014at least for me, my brother and sister were happy to go\u2014but for me, by this time I was fourteen years old. I did whatever I wanted because my mother was often not home. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, although I endured her abuse, I had a lot of freedom as a fourteen-year-old, and I liked that. My father was now a Christian. He was going to church. He lived in the suburbs. I didn\u2019t have transportation. I had lived in the city of Chicago I could go wherever I wanted whenever I wanted. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, I did not want to move in with him. I didn\u2019t take to this change very gracefully. But, my father\u2019s consistent love and my new stepmother\u2019s love for me really began to soften my heart. But I wasn\u2019t, \u201cOh yes, now I\u2019m going to a stable home.\u201d I was like, \u201cThis is boring. I don\u2019t want to go there. I like where I\u2019m at.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>When could you look back on your relationship with your mother and say, that was what it was: destructive, abusive. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>8:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen did you begin to realize some perspective to say, \u201cI see what that was now.\u201d?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Well, I think I always knew that she was scary and out of control. I don\u2019t know that I would have used the word \u201cabusive.\u201d I think I just would have used the word \u201cscary\u201d or \u201cbad mother,\u201d those kind of things. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI remember one time; she threw me down the stairs and broke my front teeth, and didn\u2019t really get them fixed until I went to live with my dad. I had temporary caps that looked horrible\u2014those silver caps that you\u2019d wear, it was very humiliating as a girl growing up with ugly teeth. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut I remember when I was in college trying to talk to her about that. She made it out to be my fault. That she didn\u2019t really do anything. That I tripped, and she was just disciplining me as any normal parent. That was worse than anything. I think if she had admitted it, and she had been able to own it and take responsibility for it and say, \u201cYou know I was really sorry. I\u2019m drinking. I wasn\u2019t being a good mom at the time.\u201d I think the damage wouldn\u2019t have been so severe. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>9:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut, I think when you confront someone on what they do\u2014there were several times in our life she would give me money at college. I hadn\u2019t seen her much but she would send me money, and then she would say I stole it from her. So, you never knew. I was afraid to take anything from her because I didn\u2018t know what it would cost me in the end. So, we began to have a lot of distance in our relationship, and she eventually moved away and we didn\u2019t have any contact at all.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Ultimately your relationship went dark. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Our relationship went dark. She moved to Florida. Over that time from age 14 to about 22, we had sporadic contact. She would visit us sporadically with my brother and sister. But, she really didn\u2019t get involved. She didn\u2019t attend any of our weddings. She never saw any of her grandchildren being born. We adopted a little girl from Korea, she never saw that. She knew about it for a long time. She moved away, and just chose not to stay in touch with any of us. Not just me, but my brother or sister.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAs a Christian, and as a Christian counselor, I really struggle with that. Because how do I navigate that in a biblical way? How do I honor my parent, how do I love my mother? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>10:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHow do I forgive her? And how do I send her a Mother\u2019s Day Card? All those things were very hard when we had no relationship.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Leslie, in your relationship with your mom, she was both physically abusive and emotionally abusive.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Anyone who is physically abusive is also emotionally abusive.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Okay. But aren\u2019t there case where there are some people who are strictly emotionally abusive?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Absolutely. There are times when there is no physical touch going on that wounds someone. But words are used as weapons. And they can be used to control, they can be used to punish, they can be used to manipulate, intimidate, and threaten someone. That really was the ceiling for me that I was not going to contact her again, because any contact I did have was negative and destructive. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Did you see any patterns in your own life, in your own actions as a wife and a mom, that you said, you know, \u201cI think some of this is spilling out of my pores?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong>\u00a0 I tell a story about this in my book, because I think that when we talk about emotionally destructive relationships, they\u2019re not always easily detected. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>11:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo a single incident of abuse does not make an emotionally destructive relationship, or even a physically destructive relationship, because there are times when we do something because of our own background or we\u2019re just not even paying attention, and we repeat things from our childhood. But if we can take responsibility and own it, and stop it, and get help for it, then it can change and become a much better relationship. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen my little boy was two, he was throwing fit, and I can\u2019t remember if it was a department store or grocery store\u2014I think it was a department store\u2014I was trying on some clothes, and he did what two-year-olds do; he dropped himself to the floor and kicked and screamed and didn\u2019t want to sit there anymore, and in a moment of anger I yanked him to his feet by his arm. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThen, in the midst of that, he started howling even louder, announcing to the entire store that I broke his arm, and his arm is dangling by the elbow. That terrified me, and I grabbed him and put him in his car seat and rushed him to the emergency room. I told the doctor what I did, I said, \u201cI pulled him up by his arm.\u201d Luckily, his arm was not broken; it was just dislocated at his elbow. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>12:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut at that point I thought, \u201cWow, I reacted just like my mother, and I have to do something different about this. I have to get a hold of my anger, because \u201cout of the overflow of our hearts, our mouths speak.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo what came out of my mouth and my behavior that day showed that I had a very angry heart at that moment, and a tendency to be abusive. And I didn\u2019t want that ever to come out again. I wanted to work on that so that I didn\u2019t become what I had been raised with.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Leslie, you said just a moment ago that people\u2019s lack of understanding of what a destructive relationship looks like and feels like and what the experience is like really keeps many people from understanding what they\u2019re going through. Give us a very simple working definition for what you would characterize as a destructive relationship. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>It\u2019s not characterized by one single incident, but rather it\u2019s a repetitive pattern of behaviors or attitudes that result in either tearing someone down or inhibiting someone\u2019s growth. So you\u2019re tearing them down with your attitudes or your words. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>13:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOr you\u2019re hindering their growth. That can be done in a variety of different ways. But it\u2019s also accompanied by a lack of responsibility. You\u2019re not taking responsibility for it, a lack of awareness, a lack of remorse and a lack of change. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, it\u2019s not just the action or the attitude, but it\u2019s also the response when someone says, \u201cOuch! Don\u2019t! I don\u2019t like that!\u201d The other person says, \u201cWhat are you talking about? You\u2019re too sensitive. It\u2019s your problem. I didn\u2019t do that.\u201d So they don\u2019t have any personal responsibility or accountability for what they did, so therefore there is no working it through.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>I would imagine there might be mom or a dad who may be listening right now and they may have missed the phrase, the little statement you made, it\u2019s not a one-time event or even a sporadic event. It\u2019s a pattern. It\u2019s a habit. It\u2019s an ongoing problem. The reason I say that is, what parent hasn\u2019t lost control at some point and gotten angry at their child, and maybe said some things or looked at the child or done something? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>14:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAt that point, that doesn\u2019t necessarily indicate they\u2019re in a destructive relationship with their child and doing them harm. Now, it doesn\u2019t do them any good obviously. But we\u2019re talking about something that is really habitual and it\u2019s the pattern of relating. Right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Yes, it\u2019s the pattern of relating but it also\u2014all you have to do is shoot a gun one time at someone and they\u2019re dead. So, sometimes there are some incidents of abuse that\u2019s just as lethal one time. So when we\u2019re talking about physical abuse, I don\u2019t think we can say, \u201cWell, it\u2019s only sporadic so we\u2019re not going to take it as a serious thing.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI had a client once who, the first time her husband abused her he pushed her, and then he didn\u2019t do anything else. He was mean and surly in lots of other ways. But the second time he abused her, she\u2019d told him not to salt his meat because she\u2019d already put salt in it, and he didn\u2019t like that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>15:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo he got up and threw his food at her face and choked her by the sink. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat was a few years later. The third time he abused her he held a loaded gun to her head in front of her children. So that was three times in fifteen years. But each of those times it was getting progressively serious and more progressively dangerous. The first time was too many times. The second time was too many times. So I don\u2019t want to minimize the consequences of a physically abusive relationship. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnother destructive type of relationship is one in which there is a lot of deceit going on. Oftentimes, when there\u2019s a lot of deceit going on in a relationship and someone\u2019s not willing to own it, it doesn\u2019t matter if it only happens three times in five years. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt breaks trust down and if they can\u2019t own it and work on it and do it, it\u2019s hard to rebuild that relationship. So, it may not be very frequent, but it is this pattern that someone will not own, will not take responsibility for and will not change that makes it destructive.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>You mention lying and deceit as one of the characteristics of an unhealthy relationship. In fact, you list I think five of them in the book.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>16:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Five of them, yes. And abuse is one of them. So any time there\u2019s any kind of physical, emotional abuse, verbal abuse, spiritual abuse, and sexual abuse, any kind of that in a relationship, it\u2019s destructive, hands down. But there are some other kinds of relationships that aren\u2019t so obvious as that. The abusive ones are obvious. But one is when someone\u2019s controlling over another person, and they may not use verbal abuse to be controlling. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOftentimes spiritual abuse is under this category. They\u2019re not cursing at someone they\u2019re not calling them names. They\u2019re just, sort of, having his superior attitude, that somehow, \u201cI have a hotline to God and I know better than you what\u2019s good for you, and you\u2019d better do it my way or you\u2019re going to be a sinner and you\u2019ll be disobeying God and some bad things are going to happen to you.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tParents can do that to their adult children, husbands can do that to their wives under the guise of headship, pastors can do that to their parishioners under the guise of, \u201cI\u2019m the pastor and I get my way.\u201d That can inhibit someone\u2019s growth or tear someone down. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>17:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tA relationship that is repetitively deceitful, I\u2019m not just talking about blatant lying. I\u2019m also talking about misleading, pretending, making things look one way when it\u2019s really another, making yourself appear that you\u2019re one person and you\u2019re really not. So someone believes that you\u2019re saying this, but you\u2019re really not. You\u2019re not giving the whole story and that undermines trust. When that happens repeatedly in a relationship it becomes destructive. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnother kind is when someone is overly dependent this becomes very destructive because I\u2019m depending on you to fill up my entire tank, to define me, to make me a whole person, and to make me happy. When I lean on you so hard, that it makes you want to push me back and say, \u201cGrow up, get off of me.\u201d I\u2019m asking you to be my god, and that can be destructive to me and to the relationship. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe last kind of destructive relationship is when there is indifference. We don\u2019t talk about this much in the Christian community, but when you marry someone there\u2019s an actual commitment to love. So when there\u2019s indifference, \u201cI don\u2019t care, do what you want. I don\u2019t care how you feel.\u201d You tell me something that bothers you and, \u201cToo bad, that\u2019s your problem.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>\u00a0Abandonment?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>18:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Abandonment emotionally, abandonment physically, there\u2019s this indifference to the other person\u2019s feelings, thoughts or needs. That can be very destructive because I thought you promised to love me, and when you act as if I don\u2019t even exist, and that I\u2019m not important to you, it\u2019s very hurtful and it can be destructive to some people.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>\u00a0In your book you actually have a series of questions. With your permission what I\u2019d like to do is take these 31 questions and put them on the internet and allow people to take this diagnostic test. Because you give people a chance to circle whether this never happens, seldom happens, sometimes, frequently or almost always. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou\u2019ve got different categories for how people can answer them. But they really touch on all five of these destructive relationships, and it helps people. I really like the questions because it\u2019ll help them identify if they are perpetrating a destructive relationship upon a child or a spouse.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>19:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>So, for example there\u2019s a question like: \u201cDoes the person control family money, giving you little or no say?\u201d And you say, \u201cWell, no she never does that\u201d or \u201cHe never does that...\u201d sometimes, seldom, frequently, and almost always.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>I was speaking, last week and I had just had a woman who came up to me and she had been a former client of mine. Her husband is very, very controlling\u2014never physically abusive, but very controlling especially around money. I said to her, \u201cHow are you doing?\u201d And she said, \u201cWell, he gave me an allowance of $50 a week, that\u2019s all I\u2019m allowed to have.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat happens in that kind of relationship it becomes a parent-child relationship and it\u2019s not healthy for a woman to be treated as a child in a marriage. He\u2019s controlling all the money; he\u2019s deciding who gets what. It\u2019s not like they\u2019re deciding that together. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf they were deciding that together \u201cThis is how much money we have, and this is all we can spend this week\u2026\u201d Then that\u2019s a mutual adult-adult decision. But when someone has all the power in the relationship and controls another person in terms of their time or their space or their money, then it becomes controlling and destructive. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>20:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo these questions will illustrate different areas of destructiveness.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>We\u2019ve put this on our website at FamilyLifeToday.com, so if our listeners are interested in taking this inventory and really checking and saying, is the relationship I\u2019m in, would it qualify as an emotionally destructive relationship? There\u2019s a good way to tell by working your way through these questions.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>\u00a0I guess I\u2019d just like to apply a scripture here, because I think one of the most important ingredients of any healthy relationship is really found in Ephesians 5:21, it says, \u201cSubmitting to one another out of reverence to Christ.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat it\u2019s talking about there is really looking out for the other person\u2019s interests and submitting yourself to them and their needs and if need be, take a step back, look in the mirror of scripture and do a little self-analysis of how you re relating to another person. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>21:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tPerhaps you have a blind spot and you need the Spirit of God to reveal to you that you have some unhealthy patterns in how you\u2019re relating to a child, your spouse, perhaps a family member, and then begin to ask God to do some business. Bob, I think Leslie\u2019s book here is really going to be of great value to people who are serious about changing some habits and patterns in their relationships. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Well, I think it\u2019s going to help those who may recognize that things aren\u2019t right in their relationship and may think to themselves, \u201cI know what the source of this is,\u201d only to find out that oftentimes they are co-contributors to this emotionally destructive relationship, whether it\u2019s a marriage relationship or a parent-child relationship.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe have copies of Leslie\u2019s book, <em>The Emotionally Destructive Relationship<\/em>, in our FamilyLife Today Resource Center. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>22:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to encourage you to go to FamilyLifeToday.com to find out more about how to order a copy of the book. Again, go to FamilyLifeToday.com, click in the upper left-hand corner where it says \u201cGo Deeper\u201d, and there you\u2019ll find a copy of Leslie\u2019s book. You can order from us online if you\u2019d like, or you can order by calling 1-800-FLTODAY. So again, the website FamilyLifeToday.com, or call 1-800-358-6329. That\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word \u201cTODAY\u201d.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWell, we are at the halfway point of the year, and I want to thank those of you who have stood with us in the first six months of 2014. Because we are a listener-supported program, your support over the past six months has enabled all that we do here at FamilyLife Today to happen. More than 60% of our annual budget comes from donations from folks like you, who say, \u201cWe believe in what you\u2019re doing, and we want to see it continue.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>23:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cWe appreciate the radio program; we want to help cover the cost of producing and syndicating FamilyLife Today.\u201d Thank you for partnering with us in this mission. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThis week, if you can help support this ministry, we\u2019d like to say thank you by sending you the FamilyLife <em>Bible Study for Couples<\/em>. This is a Bible study designed to walk through some of the core issues that we face in marriage, to see what the Bible has to say about those issues, and it\u2019s something that a husband and wife could sit down and work through together, or it\u2019s something that you could do with other couples in your community or in your church. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe FamilyLife <em>Bible Study for Couples<\/em> is our thank-you gift when you make a donation. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com, click the button in the upper right-hand corner of the screen that says \u201cI Care\u201d and make an online donation, or call 1-800-FLTODAY and make a donation over the phone. Just mention you\u2019d like the <em>Bible Study for Couples<\/em> when you do that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOr, you can mail a check to FamilyLife Today. Our mailing address is FamilyLife Today, box 7111, Little Rock, Arkansas, and our zip code is 72223. Again, if you\u2019re interested in the Bible study, include a note when you mail in your check, and we\u2019ll send it to you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, tomorrow we\u2019re going to talk more about what to do if you find yourself in a relationship that is emotionally destructive. Leslie Vernick is with us this week; hope you can be with us as well.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHelp for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2014 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a> \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\t1\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>","theme_header_position":"","post_header_is_sticky":"","is_header_overlay":""},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/303101","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/91"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=303101"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/294104"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=303101"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=303101"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=303101"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=303101"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=303101"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=303101"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}