{"id":302987,"date":"2014-03-25T11:00:00","date_gmt":"2014-03-25T15:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/remembering-the-poor\/"},"modified":"2014-03-25T11:00:00","modified_gmt":"2014-03-25T15:00:00","slug":"remembering-the-poor","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/remembering-the-poor\/","title":{"rendered":"Remembering the Poor"},"content":{"rendered":"","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>What is the best way to help the poor?<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2014-03-25.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:","filesize":"22.18M","filesize_raw":"23257618","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2848],"tags":[5335],"podcast_series":[8003],"cwp_profile":[8929],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-302987","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-cultural-issues","tag-africa","podcast_series-the-poverty-of-nations","cwp_profile-wayne-grudem","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/302987\/remembering-the-poor","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/302987\/remembering-the-poor","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"Sv1iN79kSt\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/remembering-the-poor\/\">Remembering the Poor<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/remembering-the-poor\/embed\/#?secret=Sv1iN79kSt\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Remembering the Poor&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"Sv1iN79kSt\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2014-03-25.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2014-03-25.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<strong>Bob: <\/strong>What have you taught your kids about how they ought to handle their money? For that matter, what have you taught your children about how societies ought to handle their money? Here\u2019s Dr. Wayne Grudem. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Just as we want parents to teach their children about human sexuality, from a biblical standpoint, we want to teach them about creation and science from a biblical standpoint. We think that parents should be really well-equipped to teach their children some simple facts about how economies function. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Tuesday, March 25<sup>th<\/sup>. Our host is the President of FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, Dennis Rainey, and I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We\u2019ll explore what the Bible has to say about wealth, and poverty, and nations, and governments. Our guest today is \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDr. Wayne Grudem. Stay tuned. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>1:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. I\u2019ll never forget a\u2014was a cold, December afternoon. I got a call from my son, David. He was 15 years old, at the time. He had been out, riding his bike; and he\u2019d ridden down to the K-Mart. He called; and he said, \u201cDad, there is a guy here, outside the K-Mart, who doesn\u2019t have any money and doesn\u2019t have a place to stay.\u201d Then, he just got silent on the phone. And\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> So, what did you say, Bob? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I said, \u201cI\u2019ll be right there.\u201d So, I got in the car. I drove over to the K-Mart where David was. I met the man who was standing there. I said, \u201cWhat\u2019s the situation?\u201d He said: \u201cWell, I\u2019m unemployed. I\u2019m new in town.\u201d So, I said\u2014there\u2019s a little restaurant, there in the K-Mart parking lot\u2014a little hamburger place. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>2:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI said, \u201cCome with me.\u201d So, we went over to the restaurant at the K-Mart parking space. I said, \u201cHere is the information for\u2014there\u2019s a rescue mission, here in town\u2014that can give you a place to stay tonight.\u201d I said, \u201cI\u2019m going to buy your dinner here.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI gave the hamburger people\u2014I said, \u201cHere is ten bucks.\u201d I didn\u2019t give it to the man. I gave it to the hamburger people. I said: \u201cHere\u2019s the ten bucks. Let my friend get whatever he wants to have for dinner.\u201d I said, \u201cI want you to enjoy dinner.\u201d Then, I said, \u201cThey\u2019ll let you call from here, and these folks will give you a place to stay tonight.\u201d He said, \u201cThank you,\u201d and we went on our way. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, I have to tell you\u2014I was conflicted, like I often am, when I see the guy at the side of the road with the sign. I thought: \u201cIs that\u2014did I just do the right thing? Did I help this guy or not?\u201d So, I\u2019m just curious\u2014I hope we can get a theologically-sound answer to my dilemma. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I think we have looked around the world to find the very best theologian we could find to address that issue. He couldn\u2019t come, but Wayne Grudem is here. [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>3:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDr. Wayne Grudem\u2014a good friend, whom I\u2019ve insulted many times on the broadcast\u2014joins us, again, of his own free-will. Welcome back, Wayne. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> It was a struggle\u2014I have to say, Dennis. [Laughter] No, just kidding. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Share with our listeners something that you just found out\u2014that you just shared with me, a few moments ago, as we walked into this studio about something we share together. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Right. Well, John Majors\u2014who has worked with you for a number of years, and I know admires you very much, and was a student of mine at Phoenix Seminary, as well\u2014he said to me, last night after he picked me up at the airport\u2014he said, \u201cI think you and Dennis share the same birthday.\u201d And we do, Dennis, because I asked you your birthday this morning. You said, \u201cTwo-11-48.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> And I was born on 2-11-48. Isn\u2019t that incredible? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> That\u2019s great. Well, if you don\u2019t know who Wayne Grudem is, you need to know. He is the Research Professor of Theology and Biblical Studies at Phoenix Seminary in Phoenix, Arizona. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>4:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYesterday, I mentioned that he has so many degrees, he has a temperature. He\u2019s a graduate of Harvard, Westminster, and Cambridge; and he is one of the leading theologians in the world, and one of the best thinkers. He and his wife Margaret have been married since 1969. They have three sons. He\u2019s written a book\u2014in fact, Bob, you and I have commented on this\u2014this is out of the box for us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> It is. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> It\u2019s called <em>The Poverty of Nations: A Sustainable Solution<\/em>. And it\u2019s really talking about a biblical approach to economics and poverty. Let\u2019s go back to Bob\u2019s question, Wayne. I was going to ask you this question. It\u2019s great that Bob personalized it; but I was going to ask you, \u201cWhat do you do when you\u2019re in a city and you walk by a homeless person, or someone who is begging\u2014someone who is asking for money\u2014who is poor?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Well, I don\u2019t think there is one right answer to that, Dennis. I\u2019m glad for Bob taking the man to a restaurant, and getting him a meal, and getting him to an agency that can help him.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>5:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI have, in the past, done something similar to that. Sometimes, I just give some money. Sometimes, I don\u2019t do anything because it just doesn\u2019t seem right to me. It\u2019s hard to know. You get approached by someone in a parking lot\u2014it\u2019s near Christmas\u2014\u201cOur car\u2019s out of gas,\u201d\u2014and sometimes, we just help\u2014not knowing if you\u2019re doing right or being scammed\u2014but maybe err on the side of generosity. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut our book, really, I mean\u2014and I think that\u2019s probably a situation where I\u2019d say the number one rule is: \u201cPray for the Lord\u2019s guidance, in the moment, and try to do the right thing\u201d; but the Bible commends someone who is always giving generously and lending\u2014and his children become a blessing. So, that\u2019d be the side I\u2019d err on. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You looked at a lot of what the Bible has to say about poverty, and about generosity, and about economics. The Bible has a lot to say about it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> It does. Yes, I was especially\u2014in my own life\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>6:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014I was impacted. The Lord just put on my heart, again and again, this verse in Galatians 2:10, where Paul tells about the fact that he had been preaching the gospel for a while. He went up to Jerusalem to meet with the apostles in Jerusalem\u2014to talk and say: \u201cAre we preaching the same thing? Are we preaching the same gospel?\u201d They agreed with him they were preaching the same gospel; but then, Paul says this\u2014Galatians 2:10, \u201cOnly they would have us remember the poor\u2014the very thing I was eager to do.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt\u2019s very important because that\u2019s at the heart of what he says was in his gospel message. They wanted him not to forget that part of the responsibility\u2014preaching the gospel, as a Christian, is to remember the poor and to think about the poor. But I was increasingly thinking: \u201cI\u2019m teaching my seminary classes. I\u2019m teaching class at my church. I have some friendships in my neighborhood, but I\u2019m not doing much of anything to help the poor. Is there anything that I could be doing to help the poor?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat was another factor that led me to think, \u201cI should give some of my time\u201d\u2014it ended up being over two years\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>7:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014to researching and writing a book on why whole nations remain trapped in poverty or why nations increase in prosperity. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIn the 1900s, Japan was a very poor, agricultural society. Then, it grew to become the second wealthiest country in the world in the late 1900s. In the 1950s, South Korea was poorer than many of the countries in Africa; and all of a sudden, now, South Korea is the 12<sup>th<\/sup> richest country in the world by per capita income. Why? What has happened? They\u2019ve become prosperous by producing more\u2014their factories produce more \/ their farms produce more. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt isn\u2019t that people have to work harder. Many of these people in poor countries work very, very hard, from dawn to dusk; but it\u2019s that they have to have economic systems that will reward them and let them keep the fruits of their labor\u2014give them freedom to start a business and prosper from it. They have to have governments that are not corrupt and will not take the money from them when they begin to get ahead. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tChile is another success story about to happen in South America. I don\u2019t know if you\u2019ve noticed\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>8:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014but every once in a while, I\u2019ll eat an apple; and it will say, \u201cProduct of Chile.\u201d Chile has become much more prosperous by producing fruits and vegetables for export. What we saying is whether Japan, or South Korea, or Chile, or China are now growing\u2014not all of them, in fact, have Christian backgrounds\u2014but many of them are following the principles for economic productivity that are found in the Bible. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, what we\u2019re hoping in this book\u2014for listeners\u2014is that parents will understand simple facts about how an economy works so they can\u2014when they go into a store and they see a price changing, they can teach their children some simple facts about how economies function and overcome the wrongful, secular ideas that are out there in the world that maybe promote much more government control and think the government is the answer to everything or something like that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Wayne, I know a lot of young people\u2014people in their 20s\/30s\u2014who have a\u2014they have a heart for poverty around the world. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>9:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThey aren\u2019t buying certain brands of tennis shoes because\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014they are made in sweatshops in third world countries, or they\u2019re insisting that products have a fair trade label on them or they won\u2019t buy them, or they\u2019re supporting microbusinesses that are helping people in poverty in other countries. Are those kinds of strategies\u2014you\u2019re smiling. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Well, because you\u2019ve given different examples. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tMicro-loans are very helpful, but they help individuals or small communities. We\u2019re thankful for that. The problem is\u2014if the government is corrupt, it\u2019s going to take your profit away from you anyway or regulate you out of business\u2014or if the government is corrupt, so that this guy places a huge order with your store and then he won\u2019t pay his bill\u2014you take it to court, and the judge is his uncle and won\u2019t enforce the law. All of a sudden, you have corrupt government and you\u2019re going to destroy economic productivity. So, micro-loans, yes; but change the whole nation\u2014the laws, and the economic policies, and the cultural values in the nation\u2014and that\u2019s what our book is about. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>10:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAs for fair trade coffee, Bob, I\u2019m afraid to disappoint you; but we do an economic analysis of fair trade coffee. We\u2019re very skeptical that it will do much good. It really accounts for about 1 percent of the coffee market in the United States. It\u2019s basically a charitable contribution to a select group of coffee growers in other countries. If you want to make charitable contributions, there are much more effective ways to do that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut what it does is\u2014it is saying, \u201cLet\u2019s persuade people to pay more than the market requires for a lot of products in the world,\u201d so that most of your spending is going to be done for with added charitable contributions.\u201d It\u2019s not going to work. It\u2019s trying to say that the laws of supply and demand can be violated, and they won\u2019t set the prices for world goods. \u201cWe\u2019ll do something different from that to increase the quantity demanded over the price.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> What about shoe or clothing sweatshops in third worlds? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>11:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Yes, I\u2019m concerned about that, but the problem is\u2014it is difficult to get facts to know if what is reported is just a reporter trying to destroy a company by slanted or biased reporting or not. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think that companies in the United States do have a moral responsibility\u2014that the factories that they employ people in, in other countries, are not run under dangerous and inhumane conditions. I don\u2019t think they all have to be air-conditioned\u2014to the OSHA standards for the United States of America\u2014because one of the benefits that poor countries have\u2014one of their strengths\u2014is the availability of cheap labor. If people are voluntarily deciding to come and work at a $1.50 an hour\u2014it\u2019s more than they were making\u2014a lot more than they were making when they weren\u2019t employed. That\u2019s a free choice on their part. As long as the government hasn\u2019t given this shoe factory a local monopoly, then, the free market is working. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> We keep coming back to corruption in government. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Of course. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Is there a solution for corruption in government? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>12:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> We say in this book, <em>The Poverty of Nations<\/em>\u2014that the solution to corruption in government will only come about when cultures are transformed so that people no longer think it is okay for government officials to take money from the treasury for their own selves. And\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And really, aren\u2019t you thinking about the preaching of the gospel, at that point?\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> That\u2019s right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014redemption of the human soul so that he understands right from wrong and that he is accountable to God for his actions? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Exactly; Dennis, exactly. That\u2019s why we say, \u201cPastors, in poor countries, have an immense opportunity to begin preaching moral standards about how business is to be conducted and how government is to be conducted. The government is to be God\u2019s servant for your good.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tPastors can preach on the story of Samuel\u2014in 1 Samuel\u2014where he\u2019s saying, at the end of his ministry: \u201cWhose ox have I taken? Whose donkey have I taken? And whom have I defrauded?\u201d And they said, \u201cYou have not.\u201d He\u2019s an example of a faithful, honorable government servant; in that case, a judge, who didn\u2019t use his office for personal gain\u2014was not corrupt. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>13:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe Bible has other examples, as we explain in our book. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut if that belief\u2014see, we have still, in the United States, a common cultural belief that, if a congressman, or a senator, or a governor is found taking money for his own gain, he\u2019ll immediately be out of office because the culture won\u2019t stand for it\u2014but there are countries\u2014where that doesn\u2019t happen. So, we\u2019re saying there has to be a cultural transformation. We list, I think, 35 cultural values that have to change in countries if they are going to become more productive, economically. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I have a son who works for Teach for America<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> He is in a lower-income school in the city where he is teaching. He and I have a number of conversations about the future of these middle-schoolers. He talks about some of the things that have them trapped in a social structure that they can\u2019t get out of on their own. Is that accurate? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>14:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOr how should he approach these students, as their teacher, to encourage them to break through their cultural surroundings? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Well, Bob, you told me a story about an early job that you had when you were a kid. The manager told you that you were doing a good job\u2014why?\u2014because you showed up on time, and you tried to work hard, and be faithful to the supervisor when you were working. My guess is your dad taught you that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> But if kids grow up in families without dads to teach them that, then, mom can teach it, maybe; but one of the greatest predictors\u2014maybe, the greatest predictor\u2014of growing up in poverty in the United States is if you don\u2019t have a dad in the home, married to your mom. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, the breakdown of family structure has meant that you\u2019re not learning those work habits, and diligence in work, and thriftiness, and the value of saving, the value of being faithful at work, telling the truth, being honest\u2014those kinds of things. You need a dad and a mom to teach that best\u2014a dad and a mom\u2014both in the home. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>15:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And that\u2019s true worldwide\u2014that the issue of the family, worldwide, is systemic to everything we\u2019re talking about; isn\u2019t it? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Yes. Although we do have cases, in a number of poor countries, where there are strong family values\u2014higher appreciation for marriage and permanency in marriage\u2014than we have in the United States. We\u2019re saying to these countries, where those things are strong: \u201cConsider these strengths. Do not lose them as you try to work toward greater prosperity, but maintain these and be thankful for them.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Right. In America, one of the quotes that I\u2019ve been using recently is by the Brookings Institute, where they found that, if three things are present, you have a \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t98 percent chance of getting out of poverty. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Okay. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Number one, graduate from high school. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Number two, get a job. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And number three, have children within the bounds of a marriage relationship\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Right. Get married before you have children. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Exactly. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis<\/strong>: \u2014where there is a mother and a father together. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> They can get out of that poverty situation. However, if those three things aren\u2019t in place, you have a 76 percent chance of being in poverty in our country.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>16:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> But the breakdown of the family, here in America, is creating its own set of problems. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> That\u2019s a very, very worrisome trend, Dennis. I could also say\u2014just recently, there has been a push\u2014and I think there might continue to be a push\u2014for raising the minimum wage to $15 an hour or something. That, at first, sounds great to people because \u201cWow! Instead of making $7.50 or $7.80 an hour, now, I can be making $15 an hour.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe problem is\u2014if you force McDonalds<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, Wal-Mart<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, Wendy\u2019s<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>\u2014other places\u2014to pay $15 an hour, they are going to say: \u201cHmm, at about $9 an hour, I can put in a machine to dispense these things; and the machine shows up on time. It does its job properly.\u201d You take away the opportunity for entry-level jobs. What happens is\u2014every time the minimum wage goes up, teen unemployment rises significantly. You raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>17:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014all of a sudden, teenagers are not going to have nearly as many opportunities to get jobs at all. And $15 an hour sounds nice for a few people; but for many, many people the per-hour wage is going to be zero. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> What about the whole issue of consumerism\/materialism? As we\u2019re raising our children, we didn\u2019t want them to be fixed on materialism. Yet, for a capitalistic society to function and to prosper, there has to be some of that; doesn\u2019t there? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Well, the Apostle Paul encourages his readers, \u201cYou should work with your own hands to support yourselves, and be dependent on no one.\u201d God wants us to be able to work and support ourselves. That means producing things from the earth and earning a living. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, a long time ago\u20141776, the famous economist, Adam Smith, in Scotland, said that the natural effort of every individual\u2014to better his own condition with freedom and security\u2014is so powerful that it is capable of carrying a society to wealth and prosperity. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>18:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIn other words, when people are allowed to work, which is their natural tendency, and to try and do a better job and get ahead\u2014that natural tendency, when there is freedom in the country for people to do that, and when there is security so when they get paid they can keep their money and not have the government take it away or a robber take it away\u2014that\u2019s so powerful it will carry any nation to prosperity. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, that\u2019s what we\u2019re saying: \u201cThere are principles here that are valuable for nations around the world if they will just follow these things and provide the freedom and the security for people to be able to work and retain the fruits of their own labor.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I want you to speak to parents on this one because this is really good to train a child in terms of how to really address what Bob talked about, a few moments ago, about living in a capitalistic society, where there is a lot of wealth\u2014a lot of things \/ a lot of stuff. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Oh, yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> You make the statement in your book, \u201cWe all have limited needs for food, clothing, and shelter; but we have unlimited wants,\u201d\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>19:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014and really taps into the quote you just read. Those wants can be a good thing, or they can be a bad thing. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Yes. It\u2019s an important principle, Dennis. Barry Asmus and I say, in this book, <em>The Poverty of Nations<\/em>\u2014when we say, \u201cPeople have unlimited wants,\u201d we don\u2019t mean that it\u2019s right for people to want a thousand pairs of shoes, or ten cars, or something like that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> What we\u2019re saying is our desire for new and improved products will always be there. That\u2019s why there will always be new jobs for people in an economy. For example, people lived for thousands of years without knowing they wanted a car because cars didn\u2019t exist. When cars were invented, then, people said, \u201cHey, you know, I could really use a car\u201d\u2014and the same with air conditioning. It was only in the 1950s that air conditioning started to become profitable or economical for housing. But now, in many parts of the world, people have air conditioning. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTelevision is the same thing. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>20:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNobody knew that they wanted television when it didn\u2019t exist. Now, I have this little smartphone. I lived quite happily for over 40 years of my life without knowing that I wanted a portable phone because I didn\u2019t know there was such a thing. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen people say, \u201cWell, what\u2019s our country going to do when these manufacturing jobs are shipped overseas to China or elsewhere?\u201d What happens is\u2014people, who are working in the assembly plant for those goods, produced in the United States, are put out of a job because somebody produces it more cheaply overseas. More money is left in the economy here to invent and produce new products. There are all sorts of new jobs\u2014whether it\u2019s in air conditioning business, or the cell phone business, or the Starbucks<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> coffee business, or the bottled water business, or things that you and I take for granted today but we\u201430\/40 years ago\u2014they just didn\u2019t exist. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, I think that there will always be room for new things to be invented. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>21:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat means there will always be the possibility of people getting jobs. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Wayne, I think your book is going to be used, I think, to set nations on a right course. But it\u2019s also going to be used by, I think, a lot of moms and dads, who are going to get a better perspective of everything that is wrapped up in an economy\u2014individual freedom; wealth; work and productivity, which you just mentioned; spending; saving; giving\u2014all that\u2019s in there\u2014education. It\u2019s\u2014your book was, for me, a great reminder for a lot of things we take for granted, here in America, that are fully in place. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> That work; right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> But we, as parents, probably need to pay a little more attention on today, with our kids, because the messages can be mixed today a bit. I just hope a lot of families will get <em>The Poverty of Nations<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> We have copies of the book in our <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Resource Center. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>22:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tListeners are welcome to go to the website\u2014FamilyLifeToday.com\u2014to order <em>The Poverty of Nations <\/em>by Dr. Wayne Grudem and Barry Asmus. Again, the website is FamilyLifeToday.com; and the book is called <em>The Poverty of Nations: A Sustainable Solution<\/em>. And as I\u2019ve already said this week, this is not a book exclusively for academics. This is a book that I think every family can read and benefit from. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com to order the book or call 1-800-FL-TODAY\u20141-800-358-6329. That\u2019s 1-800- \u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then, the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d The book, again, is called <em>The Poverty of Nations<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, we are in the final week of the month of March. All this month, our team has been hoping, and praying, and encouraging <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> listeners to consider becoming Legacy Partners. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>23:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tA Legacy Partner is somebody who helps support the ministry with a financial gift each month. And our hope and prayer has been that we would have a thousand new families step forward as brand-new Legacy Partners, this month, to help provide the financial support necessary to sustain this program and to allow FamilyLife\u2019s ministry to reach even more people in 2014. And we want to thank those of you who have already stepped forward.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe still have a ways to go to get to our goal, and we\u2019d like to ask you to consider being one family in your state. You know, 20 families in each state would do this. We\u2019d get it covered\u201420 families in each state. Would you be one of the 20 in your state to sign on as a new <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Legacy Partner? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen you do, we\u2019ll send you our welcome kit that\u2019s got some resources in there for you, including the brand-new <em>Legacy Partner Cookbook<\/em>\u2014recipes from other Legacy Partners, from Dennis and Barbara, and Mary Ann and me, and from some of our <em>FamilyLife Today <\/em>staff. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>24:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tClick the button that says, \u201cI CARE,\u201d to find out about how you can become a Legacy Partner; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY\u20141-800-358-6329\u2014and say, \u201cI\u2019m interested in becoming a Legacy Partner, and I\u2019d like that cookbook.\u201d Let me just say, \u201cThanks for your support of the ministry. We do appreciate your partnership with us. We look forward to hearing from you.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd we hope you can join us back again tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today\u2014his name is Keith Lynch\u2014and our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you again tomorrow for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHelp for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2014 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\t1\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>"],"_seopress_titles_title":[""],"_seopress_titles_desc":[""],"_seopress_robots_index":[""],"duration":["00:"],"show_notes":[""],"_thumbnail_id":["294104"],"filesize":["22.18M"],"filesize_raw":["23257618"],"_uag_css_file_name":["uag-css-302987.css"],"_uag_js_file_name":["uag-js-302987.js"],"_uag_page_assets":["a:9:{s:3:\"css\";s:82560:\".wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-top svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-top .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-bottom svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-bottom 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is the best way to help the poor?","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2014-03-25.pdf","transcript_content":"<strong>Bob: <\/strong>What have you taught your kids about how they ought to handle their money? For that matter, what have you taught your children about how societies ought to handle their money? Here\u2019s Dr. Wayne Grudem. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Just as we want parents to teach their children about human sexuality, from a biblical standpoint, we want to teach them about creation and science from a biblical standpoint. We think that parents should be really well-equipped to teach their children some simple facts about how economies function. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Tuesday, March 25<sup>th<\/sup>. Our host is the President of FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, Dennis Rainey, and I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We\u2019ll explore what the Bible has to say about wealth, and poverty, and nations, and governments. Our guest today is \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDr. Wayne Grudem. Stay tuned. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>1:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. I\u2019ll never forget a\u2014was a cold, December afternoon. I got a call from my son, David. He was 15 years old, at the time. He had been out, riding his bike; and he\u2019d ridden down to the K-Mart. He called; and he said, \u201cDad, there is a guy here, outside the K-Mart, who doesn\u2019t have any money and doesn\u2019t have a place to stay.\u201d Then, he just got silent on the phone. And\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> So, what did you say, Bob? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I said, \u201cI\u2019ll be right there.\u201d So, I got in the car. I drove over to the K-Mart where David was. I met the man who was standing there. I said, \u201cWhat\u2019s the situation?\u201d He said: \u201cWell, I\u2019m unemployed. I\u2019m new in town.\u201d So, I said\u2014there\u2019s a little restaurant, there in the K-Mart parking lot\u2014a little hamburger place. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>2:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI said, \u201cCome with me.\u201d So, we went over to the restaurant at the K-Mart parking space. I said, \u201cHere is the information for\u2014there\u2019s a rescue mission, here in town\u2014that can give you a place to stay tonight.\u201d I said, \u201cI\u2019m going to buy your dinner here.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI gave the hamburger people\u2014I said, \u201cHere is ten bucks.\u201d I didn\u2019t give it to the man. I gave it to the hamburger people. I said: \u201cHere\u2019s the ten bucks. Let my friend get whatever he wants to have for dinner.\u201d I said, \u201cI want you to enjoy dinner.\u201d Then, I said, \u201cThey\u2019ll let you call from here, and these folks will give you a place to stay tonight.\u201d He said, \u201cThank you,\u201d and we went on our way. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, I have to tell you\u2014I was conflicted, like I often am, when I see the guy at the side of the road with the sign. I thought: \u201cIs that\u2014did I just do the right thing? Did I help this guy or not?\u201d So, I\u2019m just curious\u2014I hope we can get a theologically-sound answer to my dilemma. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I think we have looked around the world to find the very best theologian we could find to address that issue. He couldn\u2019t come, but Wayne Grudem is here. [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>3:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDr. Wayne Grudem\u2014a good friend, whom I\u2019ve insulted many times on the broadcast\u2014joins us, again, of his own free-will. Welcome back, Wayne. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> It was a struggle\u2014I have to say, Dennis. [Laughter] No, just kidding. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Share with our listeners something that you just found out\u2014that you just shared with me, a few moments ago, as we walked into this studio about something we share together. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Right. Well, John Majors\u2014who has worked with you for a number of years, and I know admires you very much, and was a student of mine at Phoenix Seminary, as well\u2014he said to me, last night after he picked me up at the airport\u2014he said, \u201cI think you and Dennis share the same birthday.\u201d And we do, Dennis, because I asked you your birthday this morning. You said, \u201cTwo-11-48.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> And I was born on 2-11-48. Isn\u2019t that incredible? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> That\u2019s great. Well, if you don\u2019t know who Wayne Grudem is, you need to know. He is the Research Professor of Theology and Biblical Studies at Phoenix Seminary in Phoenix, Arizona. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>4:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYesterday, I mentioned that he has so many degrees, he has a temperature. He\u2019s a graduate of Harvard, Westminster, and Cambridge; and he is one of the leading theologians in the world, and one of the best thinkers. He and his wife Margaret have been married since 1969. They have three sons. He\u2019s written a book\u2014in fact, Bob, you and I have commented on this\u2014this is out of the box for us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> It is. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> It\u2019s called <em>The Poverty of Nations: A Sustainable Solution<\/em>. And it\u2019s really talking about a biblical approach to economics and poverty. Let\u2019s go back to Bob\u2019s question, Wayne. I was going to ask you this question. It\u2019s great that Bob personalized it; but I was going to ask you, \u201cWhat do you do when you\u2019re in a city and you walk by a homeless person, or someone who is begging\u2014someone who is asking for money\u2014who is poor?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Well, I don\u2019t think there is one right answer to that, Dennis. I\u2019m glad for Bob taking the man to a restaurant, and getting him a meal, and getting him to an agency that can help him.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>5:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI have, in the past, done something similar to that. Sometimes, I just give some money. Sometimes, I don\u2019t do anything because it just doesn\u2019t seem right to me. It\u2019s hard to know. You get approached by someone in a parking lot\u2014it\u2019s near Christmas\u2014\u201cOur car\u2019s out of gas,\u201d\u2014and sometimes, we just help\u2014not knowing if you\u2019re doing right or being scammed\u2014but maybe err on the side of generosity. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut our book, really, I mean\u2014and I think that\u2019s probably a situation where I\u2019d say the number one rule is: \u201cPray for the Lord\u2019s guidance, in the moment, and try to do the right thing\u201d; but the Bible commends someone who is always giving generously and lending\u2014and his children become a blessing. So, that\u2019d be the side I\u2019d err on. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You looked at a lot of what the Bible has to say about poverty, and about generosity, and about economics. The Bible has a lot to say about it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> It does. Yes, I was especially\u2014in my own life\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>6:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014I was impacted. The Lord just put on my heart, again and again, this verse in Galatians 2:10, where Paul tells about the fact that he had been preaching the gospel for a while. He went up to Jerusalem to meet with the apostles in Jerusalem\u2014to talk and say: \u201cAre we preaching the same thing? Are we preaching the same gospel?\u201d They agreed with him they were preaching the same gospel; but then, Paul says this\u2014Galatians 2:10, \u201cOnly they would have us remember the poor\u2014the very thing I was eager to do.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt\u2019s very important because that\u2019s at the heart of what he says was in his gospel message. They wanted him not to forget that part of the responsibility\u2014preaching the gospel, as a Christian, is to remember the poor and to think about the poor. But I was increasingly thinking: \u201cI\u2019m teaching my seminary classes. I\u2019m teaching class at my church. I have some friendships in my neighborhood, but I\u2019m not doing much of anything to help the poor. Is there anything that I could be doing to help the poor?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat was another factor that led me to think, \u201cI should give some of my time\u201d\u2014it ended up being over two years\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>7:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014to researching and writing a book on why whole nations remain trapped in poverty or why nations increase in prosperity. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIn the 1900s, Japan was a very poor, agricultural society. Then, it grew to become the second wealthiest country in the world in the late 1900s. In the 1950s, South Korea was poorer than many of the countries in Africa; and all of a sudden, now, South Korea is the 12<sup>th<\/sup> richest country in the world by per capita income. Why? What has happened? They\u2019ve become prosperous by producing more\u2014their factories produce more \/ their farms produce more. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt isn\u2019t that people have to work harder. Many of these people in poor countries work very, very hard, from dawn to dusk; but it\u2019s that they have to have economic systems that will reward them and let them keep the fruits of their labor\u2014give them freedom to start a business and prosper from it. They have to have governments that are not corrupt and will not take the money from them when they begin to get ahead. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tChile is another success story about to happen in South America. I don\u2019t know if you\u2019ve noticed\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>8:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014but every once in a while, I\u2019ll eat an apple; and it will say, \u201cProduct of Chile.\u201d Chile has become much more prosperous by producing fruits and vegetables for export. What we saying is whether Japan, or South Korea, or Chile, or China are now growing\u2014not all of them, in fact, have Christian backgrounds\u2014but many of them are following the principles for economic productivity that are found in the Bible. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, what we\u2019re hoping in this book\u2014for listeners\u2014is that parents will understand simple facts about how an economy works so they can\u2014when they go into a store and they see a price changing, they can teach their children some simple facts about how economies function and overcome the wrongful, secular ideas that are out there in the world that maybe promote much more government control and think the government is the answer to everything or something like that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Wayne, I know a lot of young people\u2014people in their 20s\/30s\u2014who have a\u2014they have a heart for poverty around the world. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>9:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThey aren\u2019t buying certain brands of tennis shoes because\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014they are made in sweatshops in third world countries, or they\u2019re insisting that products have a fair trade label on them or they won\u2019t buy them, or they\u2019re supporting microbusinesses that are helping people in poverty in other countries. Are those kinds of strategies\u2014you\u2019re smiling. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Well, because you\u2019ve given different examples. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tMicro-loans are very helpful, but they help individuals or small communities. We\u2019re thankful for that. The problem is\u2014if the government is corrupt, it\u2019s going to take your profit away from you anyway or regulate you out of business\u2014or if the government is corrupt, so that this guy places a huge order with your store and then he won\u2019t pay his bill\u2014you take it to court, and the judge is his uncle and won\u2019t enforce the law. All of a sudden, you have corrupt government and you\u2019re going to destroy economic productivity. So, micro-loans, yes; but change the whole nation\u2014the laws, and the economic policies, and the cultural values in the nation\u2014and that\u2019s what our book is about. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>10:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAs for fair trade coffee, Bob, I\u2019m afraid to disappoint you; but we do an economic analysis of fair trade coffee. We\u2019re very skeptical that it will do much good. It really accounts for about 1 percent of the coffee market in the United States. It\u2019s basically a charitable contribution to a select group of coffee growers in other countries. If you want to make charitable contributions, there are much more effective ways to do that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut what it does is\u2014it is saying, \u201cLet\u2019s persuade people to pay more than the market requires for a lot of products in the world,\u201d so that most of your spending is going to be done for with added charitable contributions.\u201d It\u2019s not going to work. It\u2019s trying to say that the laws of supply and demand can be violated, and they won\u2019t set the prices for world goods. \u201cWe\u2019ll do something different from that to increase the quantity demanded over the price.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> What about shoe or clothing sweatshops in third worlds? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>11:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Yes, I\u2019m concerned about that, but the problem is\u2014it is difficult to get facts to know if what is reported is just a reporter trying to destroy a company by slanted or biased reporting or not. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think that companies in the United States do have a moral responsibility\u2014that the factories that they employ people in, in other countries, are not run under dangerous and inhumane conditions. I don\u2019t think they all have to be air-conditioned\u2014to the OSHA standards for the United States of America\u2014because one of the benefits that poor countries have\u2014one of their strengths\u2014is the availability of cheap labor. If people are voluntarily deciding to come and work at a $1.50 an hour\u2014it\u2019s more than they were making\u2014a lot more than they were making when they weren\u2019t employed. That\u2019s a free choice on their part. As long as the government hasn\u2019t given this shoe factory a local monopoly, then, the free market is working. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> We keep coming back to corruption in government. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Of course. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Is there a solution for corruption in government? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>12:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> We say in this book, <em>The Poverty of Nations<\/em>\u2014that the solution to corruption in government will only come about when cultures are transformed so that people no longer think it is okay for government officials to take money from the treasury for their own selves. And\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And really, aren\u2019t you thinking about the preaching of the gospel, at that point?\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> That\u2019s right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014redemption of the human soul so that he understands right from wrong and that he is accountable to God for his actions? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Exactly; Dennis, exactly. That\u2019s why we say, \u201cPastors, in poor countries, have an immense opportunity to begin preaching moral standards about how business is to be conducted and how government is to be conducted. The government is to be God\u2019s servant for your good.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tPastors can preach on the story of Samuel\u2014in 1 Samuel\u2014where he\u2019s saying, at the end of his ministry: \u201cWhose ox have I taken? Whose donkey have I taken? And whom have I defrauded?\u201d And they said, \u201cYou have not.\u201d He\u2019s an example of a faithful, honorable government servant; in that case, a judge, who didn\u2019t use his office for personal gain\u2014was not corrupt. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>13:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe Bible has other examples, as we explain in our book. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut if that belief\u2014see, we have still, in the United States, a common cultural belief that, if a congressman, or a senator, or a governor is found taking money for his own gain, he\u2019ll immediately be out of office because the culture won\u2019t stand for it\u2014but there are countries\u2014where that doesn\u2019t happen. So, we\u2019re saying there has to be a cultural transformation. We list, I think, 35 cultural values that have to change in countries if they are going to become more productive, economically. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I have a son who works for Teach for America<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> He is in a lower-income school in the city where he is teaching. He and I have a number of conversations about the future of these middle-schoolers. He talks about some of the things that have them trapped in a social structure that they can\u2019t get out of on their own. Is that accurate? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>14:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOr how should he approach these students, as their teacher, to encourage them to break through their cultural surroundings? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Well, Bob, you told me a story about an early job that you had when you were a kid. The manager told you that you were doing a good job\u2014why?\u2014because you showed up on time, and you tried to work hard, and be faithful to the supervisor when you were working. My guess is your dad taught you that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> But if kids grow up in families without dads to teach them that, then, mom can teach it, maybe; but one of the greatest predictors\u2014maybe, the greatest predictor\u2014of growing up in poverty in the United States is if you don\u2019t have a dad in the home, married to your mom. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, the breakdown of family structure has meant that you\u2019re not learning those work habits, and diligence in work, and thriftiness, and the value of saving, the value of being faithful at work, telling the truth, being honest\u2014those kinds of things. You need a dad and a mom to teach that best\u2014a dad and a mom\u2014both in the home. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>15:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And that\u2019s true worldwide\u2014that the issue of the family, worldwide, is systemic to everything we\u2019re talking about; isn\u2019t it? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Yes. Although we do have cases, in a number of poor countries, where there are strong family values\u2014higher appreciation for marriage and permanency in marriage\u2014than we have in the United States. We\u2019re saying to these countries, where those things are strong: \u201cConsider these strengths. Do not lose them as you try to work toward greater prosperity, but maintain these and be thankful for them.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Right. In America, one of the quotes that I\u2019ve been using recently is by the Brookings Institute, where they found that, if three things are present, you have a \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t98 percent chance of getting out of poverty. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Okay. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Number one, graduate from high school. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Number two, get a job. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And number three, have children within the bounds of a marriage relationship\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Right. Get married before you have children. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Exactly. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis<\/strong>: \u2014where there is a mother and a father together. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> They can get out of that poverty situation. However, if those three things aren\u2019t in place, you have a 76 percent chance of being in poverty in our country.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>16:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> But the breakdown of the family, here in America, is creating its own set of problems. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> That\u2019s a very, very worrisome trend, Dennis. I could also say\u2014just recently, there has been a push\u2014and I think there might continue to be a push\u2014for raising the minimum wage to $15 an hour or something. That, at first, sounds great to people because \u201cWow! Instead of making $7.50 or $7.80 an hour, now, I can be making $15 an hour.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe problem is\u2014if you force McDonalds<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, Wal-Mart<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, Wendy\u2019s<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>\u2014other places\u2014to pay $15 an hour, they are going to say: \u201cHmm, at about $9 an hour, I can put in a machine to dispense these things; and the machine shows up on time. It does its job properly.\u201d You take away the opportunity for entry-level jobs. What happens is\u2014every time the minimum wage goes up, teen unemployment rises significantly. You raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>17:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014all of a sudden, teenagers are not going to have nearly as many opportunities to get jobs at all. And $15 an hour sounds nice for a few people; but for many, many people the per-hour wage is going to be zero. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> What about the whole issue of consumerism\/materialism? As we\u2019re raising our children, we didn\u2019t want them to be fixed on materialism. Yet, for a capitalistic society to function and to prosper, there has to be some of that; doesn\u2019t there? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Well, the Apostle Paul encourages his readers, \u201cYou should work with your own hands to support yourselves, and be dependent on no one.\u201d God wants us to be able to work and support ourselves. That means producing things from the earth and earning a living. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, a long time ago\u20141776, the famous economist, Adam Smith, in Scotland, said that the natural effort of every individual\u2014to better his own condition with freedom and security\u2014is so powerful that it is capable of carrying a society to wealth and prosperity. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>18:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIn other words, when people are allowed to work, which is their natural tendency, and to try and do a better job and get ahead\u2014that natural tendency, when there is freedom in the country for people to do that, and when there is security so when they get paid they can keep their money and not have the government take it away or a robber take it away\u2014that\u2019s so powerful it will carry any nation to prosperity. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, that\u2019s what we\u2019re saying: \u201cThere are principles here that are valuable for nations around the world if they will just follow these things and provide the freedom and the security for people to be able to work and retain the fruits of their own labor.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I want you to speak to parents on this one because this is really good to train a child in terms of how to really address what Bob talked about, a few moments ago, about living in a capitalistic society, where there is a lot of wealth\u2014a lot of things \/ a lot of stuff. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Oh, yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> You make the statement in your book, \u201cWe all have limited needs for food, clothing, and shelter; but we have unlimited wants,\u201d\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>19:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014and really taps into the quote you just read. Those wants can be a good thing, or they can be a bad thing. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Yes. It\u2019s an important principle, Dennis. Barry Asmus and I say, in this book, <em>The Poverty of Nations<\/em>\u2014when we say, \u201cPeople have unlimited wants,\u201d we don\u2019t mean that it\u2019s right for people to want a thousand pairs of shoes, or ten cars, or something like that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> What we\u2019re saying is our desire for new and improved products will always be there. That\u2019s why there will always be new jobs for people in an economy. For example, people lived for thousands of years without knowing they wanted a car because cars didn\u2019t exist. When cars were invented, then, people said, \u201cHey, you know, I could really use a car\u201d\u2014and the same with air conditioning. It was only in the 1950s that air conditioning started to become profitable or economical for housing. But now, in many parts of the world, people have air conditioning. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTelevision is the same thing. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>20:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNobody knew that they wanted television when it didn\u2019t exist. Now, I have this little smartphone. I lived quite happily for over 40 years of my life without knowing that I wanted a portable phone because I didn\u2019t know there was such a thing. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen people say, \u201cWell, what\u2019s our country going to do when these manufacturing jobs are shipped overseas to China or elsewhere?\u201d What happens is\u2014people, who are working in the assembly plant for those goods, produced in the United States, are put out of a job because somebody produces it more cheaply overseas. More money is left in the economy here to invent and produce new products. There are all sorts of new jobs\u2014whether it\u2019s in air conditioning business, or the cell phone business, or the Starbucks<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> coffee business, or the bottled water business, or things that you and I take for granted today but we\u201430\/40 years ago\u2014they just didn\u2019t exist. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, I think that there will always be room for new things to be invented. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>21:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat means there will always be the possibility of people getting jobs. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Wayne, I think your book is going to be used, I think, to set nations on a right course. But it\u2019s also going to be used by, I think, a lot of moms and dads, who are going to get a better perspective of everything that is wrapped up in an economy\u2014individual freedom; wealth; work and productivity, which you just mentioned; spending; saving; giving\u2014all that\u2019s in there\u2014education. It\u2019s\u2014your book was, for me, a great reminder for a lot of things we take for granted, here in America, that are fully in place. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> That work; right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> But we, as parents, probably need to pay a little more attention on today, with our kids, because the messages can be mixed today a bit. I just hope a lot of families will get <em>The Poverty of Nations<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> We have copies of the book in our <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Resource Center. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>22:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tListeners are welcome to go to the website\u2014FamilyLifeToday.com\u2014to order <em>The Poverty of Nations <\/em>by Dr. Wayne Grudem and Barry Asmus. Again, the website is FamilyLifeToday.com; and the book is called <em>The Poverty of Nations: A Sustainable Solution<\/em>. And as I\u2019ve already said this week, this is not a book exclusively for academics. This is a book that I think every family can read and benefit from. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com to order the book or call 1-800-FL-TODAY\u20141-800-358-6329. That\u2019s 1-800- \u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then, the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d The book, again, is called <em>The Poverty of Nations<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, we are in the final week of the month of March. All this month, our team has been hoping, and praying, and encouraging <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> listeners to consider becoming Legacy Partners. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>23:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tA Legacy Partner is somebody who helps support the ministry with a financial gift each month. And our hope and prayer has been that we would have a thousand new families step forward as brand-new Legacy Partners, this month, to help provide the financial support necessary to sustain this program and to allow FamilyLife\u2019s ministry to reach even more people in 2014. And we want to thank those of you who have already stepped forward.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe still have a ways to go to get to our goal, and we\u2019d like to ask you to consider being one family in your state. You know, 20 families in each state would do this. We\u2019d get it covered\u201420 families in each state. Would you be one of the 20 in your state to sign on as a new <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Legacy Partner? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen you do, we\u2019ll send you our welcome kit that\u2019s got some resources in there for you, including the brand-new <em>Legacy Partner Cookbook<\/em>\u2014recipes from other Legacy Partners, from Dennis and Barbara, and Mary Ann and me, and from some of our <em>FamilyLife Today <\/em>staff. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>24:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tClick the button that says, \u201cI CARE,\u201d to find out about how you can become a Legacy Partner; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY\u20141-800-358-6329\u2014and say, \u201cI\u2019m interested in becoming a Legacy Partner, and I\u2019d like that cookbook.\u201d Let me just say, \u201cThanks for your support of the ministry. We do appreciate your partnership with us. We look forward to hearing from you.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd we hope you can join us back again tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today\u2014his name is Keith Lynch\u2014and our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you again tomorrow for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHelp for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2014 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\t1\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>","theme_header_position":"","post_header_is_sticky":"","is_header_overlay":""},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/302987","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/91"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=302987"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/294104"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=302987"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=302987"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=302987"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=302987"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=302987"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=302987"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}