{"id":302985,"date":"2014-03-24T11:00:00","date_gmt":"2014-03-24T15:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/why-some-countries-are-poor\/"},"modified":"2014-03-24T11:00:00","modified_gmt":"2014-03-24T15:00:00","slug":"why-some-countries-are-poor","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/why-some-countries-are-poor\/","title":{"rendered":"Why Some Countries are Poor"},"content":{"rendered":"","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>While traveling in Africa, Dr. Wayne Grudem was asked a troubling question: &#8220;Why is Africa so poor?<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2014-03-24.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:","filesize":"23.3M","filesize_raw":"24429186","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2848],"tags":[5335],"podcast_series":[8003],"cwp_profile":[8929],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-302985","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-cultural-issues","tag-africa","podcast_series-the-poverty-of-nations","cwp_profile-wayne-grudem","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/302985\/why-some-countries-are-poor","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/302985\/why-some-countries-are-poor","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"4Mkn9YM4FV\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/why-some-countries-are-poor\/\">Why Some Countries are Poor<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/why-some-countries-are-poor\/embed\/#?secret=4Mkn9YM4FV\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Why Some Countries are Poor&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"4Mkn9YM4FV\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2014-03-24.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2014-03-24.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<strong>Bob: <\/strong>This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Monday, March 24<sup>th<\/sup>. Our host is the President of FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, Dennis Rainey, and I\u2019m Bob Lepine. Why are there poor people in our world? We\u2019ll explore that subject today with Dr. Wayne Grudem. Stay tuned. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>1:00 <\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. We\u2019re going to talk about something a little different today. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I don\u2019t know that we\u2019ve ever done anything quite like this. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes, but I\u2014by the same token, I don\u2019t know that a theology professor has ever written a book quite like this. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Well, here\u2019s my question for you, Bob: \u201cHow many messages do you think you have heard over your lifetime\u2014both in church and in conferences?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd Dr. Wayne Grudem joins us on the broadcast. I want you to answer this question, too, Wayne: \u201cHow many?\u201d\u2014just an estimate\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>2:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014just a rough estimate of messages you\u2019ve heard. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I\u2019ve probably heard\u2014I\u2019ve probably heard 2,000 sermons. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Okay. Wayne? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> For my whole life? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Three hundred sixty\u201452 a year\u2014and let me see, times so many years\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You\u2019ve heard a few\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Three thousand. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014a few tapes in between. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Yes. [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> You\u2019ve heard more than that because\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> That\u2019s right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014you speak at our conferences and have heard the other speakers at the <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em><sup>\u00ae<\/sup>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI started reflecting back\u2014how many of those\u2014of those sermons that you heard\u2014were about the poor and about how to address the needs of the poor? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I can remember one that sticks with me, out of those 2,000; but not a whole lot. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Dr. Grudem. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Not any\u2014hard to think of any, right off the top of my head. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I couldn\u2019t think of any; and yet, we\u2019re going to talk about poverty, the poor, and how\u2014whether you are a college student and you\u2019re feeling the need to go near the poor\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>3:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tor if you\u2019re a mom and dad and you are wanting to equip your sons and daughters with a biblical view of economics and of how we relate to the poor\u2014we\u2019re going to tackle it with a guy, who has so many degrees, he has to have a temperature [Laughter]\u2014Wayne Grudem. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t[\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Our listeners probably know Dr. Grudem best for his <em>Systematic Theology<\/em>, which is widely-used and probably the best-known systematic theology being used in the church today. He is on the faculty at Phoenix Theological Seminary in Phoenix, Arizona. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd I was really\u2014I was really interested when I got a copy of this book because I thought: \u201cWhy this subject?\u2014for somebody who has written on gender roles. You\u2019ve written on politics. Here\u2019s a book on economics from a theology professor\u2014why did you tackle this?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Two things happened, Bob. One, I was going with my wife, Margaret\u2014you know Margaret. Both of you do. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> We were going into a center city area of Phoenix\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>4:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014a poor area. She was working, every week, at a food-distribution \/ clothing-distribution site\u2014it was a Christian ministry. I went with her two or three times; but I began to think, \u201cIs there a better use of my time to really more effectively help solve the problem of poverty than simply this meeting urgent needs of handing out food and clothing?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBecause you come back\u2014and what I could see was happening was\u2014you might be doing the same thing for the next 20\/30 years, but the problem is not that these people are poor. The problem is that they are not earning money to support themselves. \u201cWhy is that? Is there anything I could do, using the gifts, and the skills, and interests that God has given me, as a scholar of the Bible, to try to understand why people are poor or remain poor and to find a permanent solution rather than just helping urgent needs?\u201d So, that was one thing. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThen, the second thing was\u2014I, actually, was in London. I was speaking at a conference for Christians on businesses. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>5:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThere was a couple there from Nairobi, Kenya. After the conference, the wife of this couple turned to me\u2014her name was Connie\u2014she said, \u201cWayne, why is Africa so poor?\u201d I was stunned because I couldn\u2019t think of a reason. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThen, she followed up with this: \u201cAre we under a curse?\u201d I stood there silent. I couldn\u2019t\u2014I had no idea. Africa has 13 percent of the world\u2019s population. It has 18 percent of the world\u2019s land mass\u2014has abundant natural resources\u2014but it only produces 1 percent of the world\u2019s economic output\u2014what\u2019s called the Gross Domestic Product\u2014add it together with all the nations\u20141 percent. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And most of that is produced by South Africa. They produce about 40-50 percent of what the entire continent produces. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> See, I don\u2019t know the breakdown. Some of it is oil wealth\u2014in some countries\u2014but why was that? Now, I think\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>6:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014I know, Dennis and Bob\u2014I think I know <em>why<\/em> countries are rich or poor. The cover of this book has a four-color map\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> \u2014of the world. The wealthy nations of the world are green. That\u2019s Canada, the United States, Europe, and Australia. The middle income nations\u2014Mexico; much of Latin America\u2014Brazil, for instance; Russia; China\u2014they are in blue. Green [is] for rich countries [and] blue for medium countries. Red is poor countries\u2014that would be India, for instance. Then, dark red is very poor countries\u2014Afghanistan, Pakistan. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And most of Africa. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Most of sub-Saharan Africa. If you notice\u2014way over to the right of the map\u2014North Korea is dark red\u2014extremely poor. South Korea is bright green\u2014wealthy. \u201cWhy is that?\u201d They are all Koreans. So, we began to ask that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd that map says something else. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>7:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt says, \u201cWhether you are rich or poor in the world basically depends on what country you live in.\u201d If I meet you\u2014and you\u2019re an average person and you tell me you are from Ghana, or Uganda, or Bangladesh\u2014I think you\u2019re probably quite poor. If you say you are from Switzerland, or Norway, or the United Kingdom\u2014I think, by world standards, you\u2019re an average person\u2014you\u2019re wealthy. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, wealth and poverty\u2014we began to discover\u2014is really largely determined at the level of the whole nation; but there weren\u2019t any books written on this question of: \u201cWhy do nations become rich or poor?\u201d and written from a Christian perspective, using biblical principles. So, I teamed up with a professional economist, Barry Asmus, who is a fellow elder with me at Scottsdale Bible Church. We put together this book called <em>The Poverty of Nations: A Sustainable Solution<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And the goal for the book is to challenge us, as Americans, to think differently about poverty? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>8:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Partly\u2014because if you\u2019ve heard a sermon about poverty\u2014perhaps, it\u2019s been the pastor beating up rich Americans because other people are poor. We\u2019re saying: \u201cNo, it\u2019s not the fault of our wealth that other people are poor. It\u2019s the fault of things that are broken within that country\u2014governments that are corrupt, economic systems that are robbing people, and cultural beliefs and values that are hindering productivity.\u201d So, we talk about those three areas and 79 factors within those three areas\u2014the government, the economy, and the culture. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou know\u2014saying that the poverty of poor nations is the fault of rich nations is like saying: \u201cThere are too many healthy people in the world, and look at all these sick people. If you people weren\u2019t so healthy, there wouldn\u2019t be such a difference between healthy people and sick people. You should be ashamed of your health.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> \u201cWell, no.\u201d We\u2019re saying the problem isn\u2019t that there are healthy people\u2014the problem is that there are sick people. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>9:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, here, the problem is not that there are wealthy people. The problem is that there are people whose country\u2019s economies have not grown, and they\u2019ve remained trapped in poverty. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And that was one of the things that I really liked about your book. You took on the subject of wealth and poverty from a biblical standpoint\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014and you didn\u2019t condemn wealth. You gave a, really, a biblical perspective of wealth\u2014that it can be the blessing of God\u2014while, at the same time\u2014you also held out the standard that you shouldn\u2019t pursue becoming wealthy and ignoring God. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Well, that\u2019s exactly right, Dennis. I mean, the Bible does warn about being consumed with a desire for riches. Paul says in 1 Timothy 6:9, \u201cThose who desire to be rich\u201d\u2014that\u2019s making that your deep longing and goal in life\u2014\u201cthey fall into temptation, into a snare, into many senseless and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction.\u201d There is a strong warning there. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br>But what do you say to people\u2014who get a job\u2014and they start to do well? They get advancements in their work\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>10:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> \u2014and they begin to be paid well. They\u2014well, then, I think\u2014and their goal is to be faithful in their work\u2014to serve God in their job. All of a sudden, they grow in prosperity. Then, Paul says, in the very same chapter, in 1 Timothy 6:17, \u201cAs for the rich in this present age, charge them not to be haughty or to set their hopes on the uncertainty of riches\u201d\u2014there\u2019s a warning\u2014\u201cbut on God who richly provides us with everything to enjoy.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, I think Paul is saying, \u201cIf God has prospered your work, be thankful.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And he goes on to say\u2014doesn\u2019t he?\u2014in that same passage\u2014about being ready to share \/ being ready to give. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> And be rich in good works. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Exactly. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> In, maybe, your church\u2014and in our church, we know a number of people who don\u2019t have to work full-time to support themselves anymore; but they are, what I would say, rich in good works. They are doing many things that are helping other people and ministering to other people. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> So, as we think about our families and equipping our sons and daughters, as they grow up, to establish their own careers, their own families, their own work\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>11:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014and perhaps becoming prosperous\u2014we need to teach them a biblical perspective of both wealth and poverty\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Exactly. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014so they\u2019ll know how to address the needs that surround them. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Exactly. Dennis, you have raised children. I\u2019ve raised children. Bob, you\u2019ve raised children. Isn\u2019t it a joy when you see them supporting themselves? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes. [Laughter] Amen. Amen. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Let me tell you how much a joy it is! I told them that, when they graduated from college, they had three months. They had three months; but the dole\u2014however, we were helping them\u2014and we weren\u2019t sustaining an adult lifestyle, I promise you. They were\u2014they all kind of complained that Mom and Dad weren\u2019t coming alongside them like they\u2019d like to live; but we told them they had three months to figure out where they are going to live, what they are going to do\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Wow. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014and they\u2019re on their own. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> They\u2019ve got to provide for their own lifestyle. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And yet, you know that there are tons of people, in their late-20s and early-30s, and Mom and Dad are still paying the cell phone bill for those\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>12:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And they are living at home. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014young adults. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I\u2019m not condemning young people who are living at home. There may be circumstances where that needs to happen. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> But it\u2019s not the long-term solution, and it\u2019s not what\u2019s supposed to happen for good. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> No. And it really goes back to the theme of your book\u2014you want to empower people to be free to choose and be responsible for their own economic well-being. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Right. They, then, attain what Arthur Brooks calls <em>earned<\/em> success. We talk about this in the book. It\u2019s having a responsibility and succeeding at it\u2014doing well at it. I tell a story of a student of mine who was a teaching assistant at Phoenix Seminary\u2014where, earlier in his life, he had gotten in trouble with the law\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Oh, yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> \u2014he had dropped out of school. He was\u2014actually, we have Tent City, under Sheriff Joe Arpaio, out in the Phoenix area. He spent some time in Tent City, as a prisoner; but he got his life turned around. Christ came into his life. He got out of jail and got a job at a Wendy\u2019s. He didn\u2019t know if anything he worked at would succeed\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>13:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014but one day, a manager came and said to him, \u201cYou\u2019re doing a good job keeping the French fries hot.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHe remembers that comment as a turning point in his life because, all of a sudden, he had what we call earned success. He had taken a responsibility, and he was doing well at it. He began to think: \u201cYou know, if I keep on working at the French fries this way, maybe, I\u2019ll get to be a shift-manager. Maybe, I could even be a manager of a Wendy\u2019s.\u201d It was a wonderful thing for him.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWell, he went back\u2014finished high school, went to college\u2014got straight-A\u2019s in college\u2014came to Phoenix Seminary\u2014got straight-A\u2019s at Phoenix Seminary\u2014was my teaching assistant. After seminary, he felt the Lord calling him to law school. He is at one of the top law schools in the nation, right now, doing really well in his second year. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You know, I remember I was in college, working at a hamburger restaurant, and I had been there for about three weeks. The boss called me into his office. He said\u2014he said, \u201cYou\u2019re doing a good job.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Wow. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And I said, \u201cWell, thank you.\u201d I said, \u201cI\u2019m just curious. What is it that you\u2019ve noticed\u201d\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>14:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cthat caused you to say that?\u201d He said\u2014I\u2019ll never forget this\u2014he said, \u201cYou show up on time. You work hard during your shift, and you\u2019re\u2014I don\u2019t have to worry about you.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Wow. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And I thought, \u201cWell, isn\u2019t that what all employees are supposed to do?\u201d\u2014right? Isn\u2019t that what the job is? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> But I realized, at that point, there are a lot of people who don\u2019t show up on time \/ who don\u2019t work hard while they are there. To be a good employee just meant: \u201cDo your job well. Do it \u2018as unto the Lord,\u2019 as the Bible calls you to.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> That\u2019s being productive; isn\u2019t it? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Earned success. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> So, let me apply that to poor nations. The same principle applies. It is not a biblical teaching that any individual poor people or poor nations should continually be dependent on hand-outs from others for their entire lifetimes or over decades. That\u2019s the problem with millions of dollars \/ billions of dollars in foreign aid going to poor countries. They\u2019re not earning their own success. They are not producing their own prosperity. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>15:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen that happens, there is a tremendous loss of this opportunity to have the dignity of producing your own prosperity and succeeding. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Don\u2019t you sometimes, though, need to give somebody a boost\u2014a little money\u2014just to give them a leg-up? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Okay. So, Bob, what Barry Asmus and I say in this book, <em>The Poverty of Nations<\/em>\u2014we say that there is a place for charitable gifts to meet an urgent need\u2014giving food to people who are hungry, giving medical care who don\u2019t have doctors\u2014but those gifts\u2014though they meet an urgent need\u2014they don\u2019t solve the problem. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe problem is the poor country is not producing enough of its own food, and it\u2019s not producing enough of its own medical care. So, we can keep on doing this forever; but it\u2019s not solving the problem. It\u2019s not allowing the dignity of nations helping themselves. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, what we are saying in this book is\u2014to poor nations: \u201cYou can do this.\u201d There are success stories. Nations have already done this, throughout history. There are even in the recent\u201450 years\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>16:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014there are stories of nations that have come from poverty to greater and greater prosperity by following these principles. They are principles consistent with biblical teaching. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I want to wrap some kind of local human flesh around this because we\u2019re talking about nations\u2014but we can talk about poor people, here in America, who are stuck in poverty, as well. For a number of years, I jogged by a young man\u2019s house. It was really a shack. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI noticed him because he was a paraplegic\u2014and Wayne, I didn\u2019t hear an audible voice\u2014but I think God spoke to me and impressed me, \u201cGo offer that young man a job.\u201d Long story made short\u2014he learned how to type. He didn\u2019t know how to type. I had an old computer that was in the garage that I dusted off, gave to him with a typing manual to teach him how to type. He got up to 40 words a minute. We hired him, here at FamilyLife.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Wow. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>I\u2019m going to tell you something. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>17:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHe said: \u201cI used to go to the barber and get my hair trimmed. The barber would say to me, \u2018What do you do?\u2019\u201d\u2014he\u2019s 35 years old. He said, \u201cWell, I don\u2019t have a job.\u201d He was on welfare. He said, \u201cNow, I tell him, \u2018I\u2019ve got a J-O-B. I\u2019ve got a job.\u2019\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI introduced him to Mike Huckabee, who, at the time, was the governor of the state of Arkansas. Huckabee was so impressed with his story, he introduced him to the President of the United States\u2014of a young man who wanted out of this loss of nobility that a man experiences who is not providing. He was a single man. He didn\u2019t have a job\u2014never had a job\u2014but he made good grades in high school\u2014was very smart. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAll he needed was someone to reach out and to apply, really, what you\u2019re talking about, from a national perspective, to an individual\u2014and empower them to make the choice to be responsible to provide on their own. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>18:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> What a great story, Dennis. I do think the Lord led you to talk to him. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Oh, no question\u2014one of the great privileges. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, just taking a step back from this, for a moment, though, as a family thinks about going on a mission trip\u2014I read the \u201cForeword\u201d by Rick Warren in the front of your book. Rick made the statement: \u201cFrom now on, all the families who go on missions trips to Rwanda\u201d\u2014and a number of countries that Saddleback is reaching out to\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> One hundred ninety-six countries. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Yes. He\u2019s touching a lot of them. He said, \u201cWe\u2019re going to require these families to read this book.\u201d Why did he say that? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> I think because it is the first book that has ever addressed the problem: \u201cWhy are nations poor?\u201d and, \u201cHow do they become wealthy, at the whole nation level, from a Christian perspective?\u201d We didn\u2019t find, in all our reading, any book, in the history of the world, that ever looked at how nations can become prosperous and looked at it from a standpoint of biblical principles. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>19:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> So, if I\u2019m going on a mission trip, how am I going to approach my trip differently having read your book? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> I think your eyes will be different, Bob, because you\u2019ll see a poor person\u2014you\u2019ll be able to understand the causes, in the economic system, that have led him to remain trapped in poverty. You\u2019ll see markets that aren\u2019t working because something is broken in the economic system, or because the government is heavy-handed and taking too much away from people, or because crime isn\u2019t punished and lawlessness is rampant and businesses can\u2019t thrive. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOr you\u2019ll see dishonesty. Someone promises you to paint a house for so and so dollars. Then, he comes back and he says, \u201cOh, I\u2019ve got it half done, but I need more money.\u201d That\u2019s not keeping your word. So, when those things happen, again and again, or someone promises to show up at your house at eight in the morning and won\u2019t be there on time because he\u2019s not telling the truth again\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Or the bribes that have to get paid\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Oh, exactly. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014to get in and out of countries. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> \u2014because government is working for the benefit\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>20:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014of themselves rather than other people. Those things just weigh down an economy. All of a sudden, it seems to me\u2014that if families or children, who go on mission trips\u2014high school or college-age children\u2014if they have this basic knowledge of how economies function, as we explain in the book, I think they\u2019ll see things with different eyes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I think they will, and I think they are going to be able to guide their children into understanding what they are seeing with their eyes and help them understand, from an economic standpoint, what\u2019s different about that country and our country\u2014not that ours is perfect\u2014but that there are some biblical principles that we enjoy, here in America, because we have an ethical, moral society, for the most part, that enables business to flourish. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And this is a book that is written, not just for economists or theologians\u2014although they\u2019ll benefit from reading it\u2014but it\u2019s written for everybody who has to wrestle through issues like this: \u201cHow do we live, as Christians in this world, in this kind of a culture, with these kinds of issues? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>21:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cWhat\u2019s the proper response?\u201d I\u2019d encourage our listeners, \u201cGet a copy of Dr. Wayne Grudem\u2019s new book, <em>The Poverty of Nations: A Sustainable Solution<\/em>.\u201d We have copies of the book in our <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Resource Center. You can order the book from us, online. Again, the website is FamilyLifeToday.com. The book is called <em>The Poverty of Nations<\/em>. You can order online; or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY and request the book by phone\u20141-800-358-6329. That\u2019s 1-800- \u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then, the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, talking about economics, I think most of our regular listeners know a little bit about the economics of our daily radio program. <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is listener-supported. There are costs associated with producing and syndicating this daily radio program. We have some families, all across the country, who believe in what we\u2019re doing\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>22:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014want to see it expand\u2014want to see us be able to reach more people with the ministry of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. So, they donate so that we can cover the costs of what we\u2019re doing, here at FamilyLife. <br><br>And there is one group, in particular\u2014a group that provides the foundational support for this ministry. We call them Legacy Partners. These are folks who make a donation on a monthly basis to make sure <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> continues on their local radio station and on our network of stations, all across the country. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDuring the month of March, our team has been hoping and praying that God would raise a thousand new Legacy Partners. We really need to see some families step forward, and this is like 20 families in each state where <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is heard. Or you can think of it this way\u2014it\u2019s one family in every city where <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is heard. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe\u2019re hoping that that one family, in each city, would step forward and say: \u201c<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is important in our community. It\u2019s important to my family. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>23:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cWe\u2019ll be Legacy Partners and make that monthly donation to support <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf you do that today, we\u2019d like to send you the welcome kit to welcome you as a Legacy Partner. We\u2019ve got some resources in there for you\u2014including the brand-new <em>Legacy Partner Cookbook<\/em>. We\u2019ve collected recipes from our Legacy Partners, from some of our staff, even from Dennis and Barbara, and from Mary Ann and me. We\u2019d love to send you the brand-new <em>Legacy Partner Cookbook<\/em> as our way of saying, \u201cThank you for your regular support of this ministry.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou can become a Legacy Partner by going to FamilyLifeToday.com. Click the link you see there that says, \u201cI CARE\u201d; and you can sign up, online, as a new Legacy Partner. Or call 1-800-FL-TODAY\u2014say, \u201cI\u2019m interested in becoming a Legacy Partner,\u201d and get the information you need\u2014or sign up over the phone. Let me just say, \u201cThanks,\u201d in advance, for joining us as a new Legacy Partner family. Keep praying that we\u2019ll be able to reach this goal of a thousand new Legacy Partners. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>24:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIn fact, this week, on a number of these <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> radio stations, we\u2019ll be here, talking to you about how you can join with us and be a part of what God is doing through this ministry. So, I hope you\u2019ll tune in for that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd I hope you\u2019ll join us back, again, tomorrow. Dr. Wayne Grudem will be here again. We\u2019ll continue our conversation about poverty, about economics, and about how we, as moms and dads, can teach our children about money and about economics. Hope you can tune in for that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHelp for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2014 FamilyLife. 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traveling in Africa, Dr. Wayne Grudem was asked a troubling question: \"Why is Africa so poor?","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2014-03-24.pdf","transcript_content":"<strong>Bob: <\/strong>This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Monday, March 24<sup>th<\/sup>. Our host is the President of FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, Dennis Rainey, and I\u2019m Bob Lepine. Why are there poor people in our world? We\u2019ll explore that subject today with Dr. Wayne Grudem. Stay tuned. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>1:00 <\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. We\u2019re going to talk about something a little different today. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I don\u2019t know that we\u2019ve ever done anything quite like this. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes, but I\u2014by the same token, I don\u2019t know that a theology professor has ever written a book quite like this. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Well, here\u2019s my question for you, Bob: \u201cHow many messages do you think you have heard over your lifetime\u2014both in church and in conferences?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd Dr. Wayne Grudem joins us on the broadcast. I want you to answer this question, too, Wayne: \u201cHow many?\u201d\u2014just an estimate\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>2:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014just a rough estimate of messages you\u2019ve heard. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I\u2019ve probably heard\u2014I\u2019ve probably heard 2,000 sermons. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Okay. Wayne? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> For my whole life? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Three hundred sixty\u201452 a year\u2014and let me see, times so many years\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You\u2019ve heard a few\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Three thousand. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014a few tapes in between. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Yes. [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> You\u2019ve heard more than that because\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> That\u2019s right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014you speak at our conferences and have heard the other speakers at the <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em><sup>\u00ae<\/sup>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI started reflecting back\u2014how many of those\u2014of those sermons that you heard\u2014were about the poor and about how to address the needs of the poor? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I can remember one that sticks with me, out of those 2,000; but not a whole lot. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Dr. Grudem. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Not any\u2014hard to think of any, right off the top of my head. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I couldn\u2019t think of any; and yet, we\u2019re going to talk about poverty, the poor, and how\u2014whether you are a college student and you\u2019re feeling the need to go near the poor\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>3:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tor if you\u2019re a mom and dad and you are wanting to equip your sons and daughters with a biblical view of economics and of how we relate to the poor\u2014we\u2019re going to tackle it with a guy, who has so many degrees, he has to have a temperature [Laughter]\u2014Wayne Grudem. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t[\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Our listeners probably know Dr. Grudem best for his <em>Systematic Theology<\/em>, which is widely-used and probably the best-known systematic theology being used in the church today. He is on the faculty at Phoenix Theological Seminary in Phoenix, Arizona. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd I was really\u2014I was really interested when I got a copy of this book because I thought: \u201cWhy this subject?\u2014for somebody who has written on gender roles. You\u2019ve written on politics. Here\u2019s a book on economics from a theology professor\u2014why did you tackle this?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Two things happened, Bob. One, I was going with my wife, Margaret\u2014you know Margaret. Both of you do. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> We were going into a center city area of Phoenix\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>4:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014a poor area. She was working, every week, at a food-distribution \/ clothing-distribution site\u2014it was a Christian ministry. I went with her two or three times; but I began to think, \u201cIs there a better use of my time to really more effectively help solve the problem of poverty than simply this meeting urgent needs of handing out food and clothing?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBecause you come back\u2014and what I could see was happening was\u2014you might be doing the same thing for the next 20\/30 years, but the problem is not that these people are poor. The problem is that they are not earning money to support themselves. \u201cWhy is that? Is there anything I could do, using the gifts, and the skills, and interests that God has given me, as a scholar of the Bible, to try to understand why people are poor or remain poor and to find a permanent solution rather than just helping urgent needs?\u201d So, that was one thing. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThen, the second thing was\u2014I, actually, was in London. I was speaking at a conference for Christians on businesses. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>5:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThere was a couple there from Nairobi, Kenya. After the conference, the wife of this couple turned to me\u2014her name was Connie\u2014she said, \u201cWayne, why is Africa so poor?\u201d I was stunned because I couldn\u2019t think of a reason. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThen, she followed up with this: \u201cAre we under a curse?\u201d I stood there silent. I couldn\u2019t\u2014I had no idea. Africa has 13 percent of the world\u2019s population. It has 18 percent of the world\u2019s land mass\u2014has abundant natural resources\u2014but it only produces 1 percent of the world\u2019s economic output\u2014what\u2019s called the Gross Domestic Product\u2014add it together with all the nations\u20141 percent. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And most of that is produced by South Africa. They produce about 40-50 percent of what the entire continent produces. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> See, I don\u2019t know the breakdown. Some of it is oil wealth\u2014in some countries\u2014but why was that? Now, I think\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>6:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014I know, Dennis and Bob\u2014I think I know <em>why<\/em> countries are rich or poor. The cover of this book has a four-color map\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> \u2014of the world. The wealthy nations of the world are green. That\u2019s Canada, the United States, Europe, and Australia. The middle income nations\u2014Mexico; much of Latin America\u2014Brazil, for instance; Russia; China\u2014they are in blue. Green [is] for rich countries [and] blue for medium countries. Red is poor countries\u2014that would be India, for instance. Then, dark red is very poor countries\u2014Afghanistan, Pakistan. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And most of Africa. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Most of sub-Saharan Africa. If you notice\u2014way over to the right of the map\u2014North Korea is dark red\u2014extremely poor. South Korea is bright green\u2014wealthy. \u201cWhy is that?\u201d They are all Koreans. So, we began to ask that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd that map says something else. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>7:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt says, \u201cWhether you are rich or poor in the world basically depends on what country you live in.\u201d If I meet you\u2014and you\u2019re an average person and you tell me you are from Ghana, or Uganda, or Bangladesh\u2014I think you\u2019re probably quite poor. If you say you are from Switzerland, or Norway, or the United Kingdom\u2014I think, by world standards, you\u2019re an average person\u2014you\u2019re wealthy. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, wealth and poverty\u2014we began to discover\u2014is really largely determined at the level of the whole nation; but there weren\u2019t any books written on this question of: \u201cWhy do nations become rich or poor?\u201d and written from a Christian perspective, using biblical principles. So, I teamed up with a professional economist, Barry Asmus, who is a fellow elder with me at Scottsdale Bible Church. We put together this book called <em>The Poverty of Nations: A Sustainable Solution<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And the goal for the book is to challenge us, as Americans, to think differently about poverty? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>8:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Partly\u2014because if you\u2019ve heard a sermon about poverty\u2014perhaps, it\u2019s been the pastor beating up rich Americans because other people are poor. We\u2019re saying: \u201cNo, it\u2019s not the fault of our wealth that other people are poor. It\u2019s the fault of things that are broken within that country\u2014governments that are corrupt, economic systems that are robbing people, and cultural beliefs and values that are hindering productivity.\u201d So, we talk about those three areas and 79 factors within those three areas\u2014the government, the economy, and the culture. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou know\u2014saying that the poverty of poor nations is the fault of rich nations is like saying: \u201cThere are too many healthy people in the world, and look at all these sick people. If you people weren\u2019t so healthy, there wouldn\u2019t be such a difference between healthy people and sick people. You should be ashamed of your health.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> \u201cWell, no.\u201d We\u2019re saying the problem isn\u2019t that there are healthy people\u2014the problem is that there are sick people. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>9:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, here, the problem is not that there are wealthy people. The problem is that there are people whose country\u2019s economies have not grown, and they\u2019ve remained trapped in poverty. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And that was one of the things that I really liked about your book. You took on the subject of wealth and poverty from a biblical standpoint\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014and you didn\u2019t condemn wealth. You gave a, really, a biblical perspective of wealth\u2014that it can be the blessing of God\u2014while, at the same time\u2014you also held out the standard that you shouldn\u2019t pursue becoming wealthy and ignoring God. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Well, that\u2019s exactly right, Dennis. I mean, the Bible does warn about being consumed with a desire for riches. Paul says in 1 Timothy 6:9, \u201cThose who desire to be rich\u201d\u2014that\u2019s making that your deep longing and goal in life\u2014\u201cthey fall into temptation, into a snare, into many senseless and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction.\u201d There is a strong warning there. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br>But what do you say to people\u2014who get a job\u2014and they start to do well? They get advancements in their work\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>10:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> \u2014and they begin to be paid well. They\u2014well, then, I think\u2014and their goal is to be faithful in their work\u2014to serve God in their job. All of a sudden, they grow in prosperity. Then, Paul says, in the very same chapter, in 1 Timothy 6:17, \u201cAs for the rich in this present age, charge them not to be haughty or to set their hopes on the uncertainty of riches\u201d\u2014there\u2019s a warning\u2014\u201cbut on God who richly provides us with everything to enjoy.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, I think Paul is saying, \u201cIf God has prospered your work, be thankful.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And he goes on to say\u2014doesn\u2019t he?\u2014in that same passage\u2014about being ready to share \/ being ready to give. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> And be rich in good works. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Exactly. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> In, maybe, your church\u2014and in our church, we know a number of people who don\u2019t have to work full-time to support themselves anymore; but they are, what I would say, rich in good works. They are doing many things that are helping other people and ministering to other people. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> So, as we think about our families and equipping our sons and daughters, as they grow up, to establish their own careers, their own families, their own work\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>11:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014and perhaps becoming prosperous\u2014we need to teach them a biblical perspective of both wealth and poverty\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Exactly. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014so they\u2019ll know how to address the needs that surround them. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Exactly. Dennis, you have raised children. I\u2019ve raised children. Bob, you\u2019ve raised children. Isn\u2019t it a joy when you see them supporting themselves? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes. [Laughter] Amen. Amen. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Let me tell you how much a joy it is! I told them that, when they graduated from college, they had three months. They had three months; but the dole\u2014however, we were helping them\u2014and we weren\u2019t sustaining an adult lifestyle, I promise you. They were\u2014they all kind of complained that Mom and Dad weren\u2019t coming alongside them like they\u2019d like to live; but we told them they had three months to figure out where they are going to live, what they are going to do\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Wow. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014and they\u2019re on their own. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> They\u2019ve got to provide for their own lifestyle. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And yet, you know that there are tons of people, in their late-20s and early-30s, and Mom and Dad are still paying the cell phone bill for those\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>12:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And they are living at home. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014young adults. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I\u2019m not condemning young people who are living at home. There may be circumstances where that needs to happen. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> But it\u2019s not the long-term solution, and it\u2019s not what\u2019s supposed to happen for good. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> No. And it really goes back to the theme of your book\u2014you want to empower people to be free to choose and be responsible for their own economic well-being. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Right. They, then, attain what Arthur Brooks calls <em>earned<\/em> success. We talk about this in the book. It\u2019s having a responsibility and succeeding at it\u2014doing well at it. I tell a story of a student of mine who was a teaching assistant at Phoenix Seminary\u2014where, earlier in his life, he had gotten in trouble with the law\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Oh, yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> \u2014he had dropped out of school. He was\u2014actually, we have Tent City, under Sheriff Joe Arpaio, out in the Phoenix area. He spent some time in Tent City, as a prisoner; but he got his life turned around. Christ came into his life. He got out of jail and got a job at a Wendy\u2019s. He didn\u2019t know if anything he worked at would succeed\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>13:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014but one day, a manager came and said to him, \u201cYou\u2019re doing a good job keeping the French fries hot.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHe remembers that comment as a turning point in his life because, all of a sudden, he had what we call earned success. He had taken a responsibility, and he was doing well at it. He began to think: \u201cYou know, if I keep on working at the French fries this way, maybe, I\u2019ll get to be a shift-manager. Maybe, I could even be a manager of a Wendy\u2019s.\u201d It was a wonderful thing for him.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWell, he went back\u2014finished high school, went to college\u2014got straight-A\u2019s in college\u2014came to Phoenix Seminary\u2014got straight-A\u2019s at Phoenix Seminary\u2014was my teaching assistant. After seminary, he felt the Lord calling him to law school. He is at one of the top law schools in the nation, right now, doing really well in his second year. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You know, I remember I was in college, working at a hamburger restaurant, and I had been there for about three weeks. The boss called me into his office. He said\u2014he said, \u201cYou\u2019re doing a good job.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Wow. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And I said, \u201cWell, thank you.\u201d I said, \u201cI\u2019m just curious. What is it that you\u2019ve noticed\u201d\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>14:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cthat caused you to say that?\u201d He said\u2014I\u2019ll never forget this\u2014he said, \u201cYou show up on time. You work hard during your shift, and you\u2019re\u2014I don\u2019t have to worry about you.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Wow. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And I thought, \u201cWell, isn\u2019t that what all employees are supposed to do?\u201d\u2014right? Isn\u2019t that what the job is? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> But I realized, at that point, there are a lot of people who don\u2019t show up on time \/ who don\u2019t work hard while they are there. To be a good employee just meant: \u201cDo your job well. Do it \u2018as unto the Lord,\u2019 as the Bible calls you to.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> That\u2019s being productive; isn\u2019t it? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Earned success. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> So, let me apply that to poor nations. The same principle applies. It is not a biblical teaching that any individual poor people or poor nations should continually be dependent on hand-outs from others for their entire lifetimes or over decades. That\u2019s the problem with millions of dollars \/ billions of dollars in foreign aid going to poor countries. They\u2019re not earning their own success. They are not producing their own prosperity. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>15:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen that happens, there is a tremendous loss of this opportunity to have the dignity of producing your own prosperity and succeeding. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Don\u2019t you sometimes, though, need to give somebody a boost\u2014a little money\u2014just to give them a leg-up? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Okay. So, Bob, what Barry Asmus and I say in this book, <em>The Poverty of Nations<\/em>\u2014we say that there is a place for charitable gifts to meet an urgent need\u2014giving food to people who are hungry, giving medical care who don\u2019t have doctors\u2014but those gifts\u2014though they meet an urgent need\u2014they don\u2019t solve the problem. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe problem is the poor country is not producing enough of its own food, and it\u2019s not producing enough of its own medical care. So, we can keep on doing this forever; but it\u2019s not solving the problem. It\u2019s not allowing the dignity of nations helping themselves. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, what we are saying in this book is\u2014to poor nations: \u201cYou can do this.\u201d There are success stories. Nations have already done this, throughout history. There are even in the recent\u201450 years\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>16:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014there are stories of nations that have come from poverty to greater and greater prosperity by following these principles. They are principles consistent with biblical teaching. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I want to wrap some kind of local human flesh around this because we\u2019re talking about nations\u2014but we can talk about poor people, here in America, who are stuck in poverty, as well. For a number of years, I jogged by a young man\u2019s house. It was really a shack. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI noticed him because he was a paraplegic\u2014and Wayne, I didn\u2019t hear an audible voice\u2014but I think God spoke to me and impressed me, \u201cGo offer that young man a job.\u201d Long story made short\u2014he learned how to type. He didn\u2019t know how to type. I had an old computer that was in the garage that I dusted off, gave to him with a typing manual to teach him how to type. He got up to 40 words a minute. We hired him, here at FamilyLife.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Wow. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>I\u2019m going to tell you something. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>17:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHe said: \u201cI used to go to the barber and get my hair trimmed. The barber would say to me, \u2018What do you do?\u2019\u201d\u2014he\u2019s 35 years old. He said, \u201cWell, I don\u2019t have a job.\u201d He was on welfare. He said, \u201cNow, I tell him, \u2018I\u2019ve got a J-O-B. I\u2019ve got a job.\u2019\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI introduced him to Mike Huckabee, who, at the time, was the governor of the state of Arkansas. Huckabee was so impressed with his story, he introduced him to the President of the United States\u2014of a young man who wanted out of this loss of nobility that a man experiences who is not providing. He was a single man. He didn\u2019t have a job\u2014never had a job\u2014but he made good grades in high school\u2014was very smart. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAll he needed was someone to reach out and to apply, really, what you\u2019re talking about, from a national perspective, to an individual\u2014and empower them to make the choice to be responsible to provide on their own. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>18:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> What a great story, Dennis. I do think the Lord led you to talk to him. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Oh, no question\u2014one of the great privileges. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, just taking a step back from this, for a moment, though, as a family thinks about going on a mission trip\u2014I read the \u201cForeword\u201d by Rick Warren in the front of your book. Rick made the statement: \u201cFrom now on, all the families who go on missions trips to Rwanda\u201d\u2014and a number of countries that Saddleback is reaching out to\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> One hundred ninety-six countries. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Yes. He\u2019s touching a lot of them. He said, \u201cWe\u2019re going to require these families to read this book.\u201d Why did he say that? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> I think because it is the first book that has ever addressed the problem: \u201cWhy are nations poor?\u201d and, \u201cHow do they become wealthy, at the whole nation level, from a Christian perspective?\u201d We didn\u2019t find, in all our reading, any book, in the history of the world, that ever looked at how nations can become prosperous and looked at it from a standpoint of biblical principles. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>19:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> So, if I\u2019m going on a mission trip, how am I going to approach my trip differently having read your book? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> I think your eyes will be different, Bob, because you\u2019ll see a poor person\u2014you\u2019ll be able to understand the causes, in the economic system, that have led him to remain trapped in poverty. You\u2019ll see markets that aren\u2019t working because something is broken in the economic system, or because the government is heavy-handed and taking too much away from people, or because crime isn\u2019t punished and lawlessness is rampant and businesses can\u2019t thrive. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOr you\u2019ll see dishonesty. Someone promises you to paint a house for so and so dollars. Then, he comes back and he says, \u201cOh, I\u2019ve got it half done, but I need more money.\u201d That\u2019s not keeping your word. So, when those things happen, again and again, or someone promises to show up at your house at eight in the morning and won\u2019t be there on time because he\u2019s not telling the truth again\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Or the bribes that have to get paid\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> Oh, exactly. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014to get in and out of countries. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Wayne:<\/strong> \u2014because government is working for the benefit\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>20:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014of themselves rather than other people. Those things just weigh down an economy. All of a sudden, it seems to me\u2014that if families or children, who go on mission trips\u2014high school or college-age children\u2014if they have this basic knowledge of how economies function, as we explain in the book, I think they\u2019ll see things with different eyes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I think they will, and I think they are going to be able to guide their children into understanding what they are seeing with their eyes and help them understand, from an economic standpoint, what\u2019s different about that country and our country\u2014not that ours is perfect\u2014but that there are some biblical principles that we enjoy, here in America, because we have an ethical, moral society, for the most part, that enables business to flourish. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And this is a book that is written, not just for economists or theologians\u2014although they\u2019ll benefit from reading it\u2014but it\u2019s written for everybody who has to wrestle through issues like this: \u201cHow do we live, as Christians in this world, in this kind of a culture, with these kinds of issues? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>21:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cWhat\u2019s the proper response?\u201d I\u2019d encourage our listeners, \u201cGet a copy of Dr. Wayne Grudem\u2019s new book, <em>The Poverty of Nations: A Sustainable Solution<\/em>.\u201d We have copies of the book in our <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Resource Center. You can order the book from us, online. Again, the website is FamilyLifeToday.com. The book is called <em>The Poverty of Nations<\/em>. You can order online; or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY and request the book by phone\u20141-800-358-6329. That\u2019s 1-800- \u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then, the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, talking about economics, I think most of our regular listeners know a little bit about the economics of our daily radio program. <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is listener-supported. There are costs associated with producing and syndicating this daily radio program. We have some families, all across the country, who believe in what we\u2019re doing\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>22:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014want to see it expand\u2014want to see us be able to reach more people with the ministry of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. So, they donate so that we can cover the costs of what we\u2019re doing, here at FamilyLife. <br><br>And there is one group, in particular\u2014a group that provides the foundational support for this ministry. We call them Legacy Partners. These are folks who make a donation on a monthly basis to make sure <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> continues on their local radio station and on our network of stations, all across the country. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDuring the month of March, our team has been hoping and praying that God would raise a thousand new Legacy Partners. We really need to see some families step forward, and this is like 20 families in each state where <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is heard. Or you can think of it this way\u2014it\u2019s one family in every city where <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is heard. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe\u2019re hoping that that one family, in each city, would step forward and say: \u201c<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is important in our community. It\u2019s important to my family. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>23:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cWe\u2019ll be Legacy Partners and make that monthly donation to support <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf you do that today, we\u2019d like to send you the welcome kit to welcome you as a Legacy Partner. We\u2019ve got some resources in there for you\u2014including the brand-new <em>Legacy Partner Cookbook<\/em>. We\u2019ve collected recipes from our Legacy Partners, from some of our staff, even from Dennis and Barbara, and from Mary Ann and me. We\u2019d love to send you the brand-new <em>Legacy Partner Cookbook<\/em> as our way of saying, \u201cThank you for your regular support of this ministry.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou can become a Legacy Partner by going to FamilyLifeToday.com. Click the link you see there that says, \u201cI CARE\u201d; and you can sign up, online, as a new Legacy Partner. Or call 1-800-FL-TODAY\u2014say, \u201cI\u2019m interested in becoming a Legacy Partner,\u201d and get the information you need\u2014or sign up over the phone. Let me just say, \u201cThanks,\u201d in advance, for joining us as a new Legacy Partner family. Keep praying that we\u2019ll be able to reach this goal of a thousand new Legacy Partners. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>24:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIn fact, this week, on a number of these <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> radio stations, we\u2019ll be here, talking to you about how you can join with us and be a part of what God is doing through this ministry. So, I hope you\u2019ll tune in for that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd I hope you\u2019ll join us back, again, tomorrow. Dr. Wayne Grudem will be here again. We\u2019ll continue our conversation about poverty, about economics, and about how we, as moms and dads, can teach our children about money and about economics. Hope you can tune in for that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHelp for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2014 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\t1\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>","theme_header_position":"","post_header_is_sticky":"","is_header_overlay":""},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/302985","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/91"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=302985"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/294104"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=302985"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=302985"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=302985"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=302985"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=302985"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=302985"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}