{"id":302882,"date":"2013-12-17T12:00:00","date_gmt":"2013-12-17T17:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/the-manifestations-of-shame\/"},"modified":"2013-12-17T12:00:00","modified_gmt":"2013-12-17T17:00:00","slug":"the-manifestations-of-shame","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/the-manifestations-of-shame\/","title":{"rendered":"The Manifestations of  Shame"},"content":{"rendered":"","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Ed Welch explores how shame causes equally dysfunctional behaviors and beliefs in so many Christian men and women.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2013-12-17.mp3","podmotor_file_id":"","podmotor_episode_id":"","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:","filesize":"24.31M","filesize_raw":"25491822","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2822],"tags":[2385],"podcast_series":[7988],"cwp_profile":[9004],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-302882","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-growing-in-your-faith","tag-shame","podcast_series-shame-interrupted","cwp_profile-ed-welch","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/302882\/the-manifestations-of-shame","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/302882\/the-manifestations-of-shame","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"u43prAQA9i\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/the-manifestations-of-shame\/\">The Manifestations of  Shame<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/the-manifestations-of-shame\/embed\/#?secret=u43prAQA9i\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;The Manifestations of  Shame&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"u43prAQA9i\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"uagb_featured_image_src":{"full":["https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg",508,508,false]},"uagb_author_info":{"display_name":"kfairris@familylife.com","author_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/author\/kfairrisfamilylife-com\/"},"uagb_comment_info":0,"uagb_excerpt":"Ed Welch explores how shame causes equally dysfunctional behaviors and beliefs in so many Christian men and women.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2013-12-17.pdf","transcript_content":"<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Are there parts of your life\u2014maybe, aspects of your past or even your present\u2014that you keep walled away from everybody else so that no one, not even God, can go there? Dr. Ed Welch says that is not uncommon to the human condition.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong> There\u2019s a rule that is almost inviolable, I think. What we see, in our relationship with other people, we\u2019re going to see in our relationship with the Lord. If a person is saying: \u201cNo! Stay away from these places,\u201d you can bet that they have said the same thing to the Lord. That\u2019s not the way we were intended to be. The way we were intended to be was openness\u2014nothing to hide. It doesn\u2019t mean we are perfect; but it means that we are so persuaded\u2014that we rest in the reputation of another\u2014that there\u2019s nothing to hide.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>1:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Tuesday, December 17<sup>th<\/sup>. Our host is the President of FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. Is it possible or is it even desirable for a person to live a shame-free life? We\u2019re going to explore that subject today. Stay tuned.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today. <\/em>Thanks for joining us on the Tuesday edition. Have you ever had a time when you have felt overwhelmed by your own shame? Have you ever felt like it was just oppressive?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Yes. I think, as you ask that question, I reflect back on my early days of turning my life over to Christ\u2014and kind of realizing what I had done that was so offensive to God and how far I had drifted away from Him. Frankly, I was ashamed of that. I needed to embrace forgiveness and grace. Truthfully, I didn\u2019t understand, either, all that much.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>2:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes. We are spending time, this week, unpacking this issue of shame as we listen back to a conversation that I had with Dr. Ed Welch, who has written a book called <em>Shame Interrupted<\/em>. Ed is with the Christian Counseling and Education Foundation in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. He happened to be here on a day when you happened <em>not <\/em>to be here.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I had\u2014. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You were scheduled to be here.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014I had shoulder surgery and the anesthesiologist won the day. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> He said, \u201cNo, no, no.\u201d [Laughter] \u201cYou should not talk.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> No! I said, \u201cNo, no, no. I\u2019m in no condition to talk.\u201d But I\u2019m healed up and better than I was before the surgery\u2014definitely.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You know, before we listen to Part Two of the conversation that I had with Ed Welch, I think it would be helpful if you would take just a minute and explain to our listeners why December is such an important month for a ministry like <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>,and why we try to rally folks in December to make a year-end contribution. I don\u2019t think most of our listeners recognize that about 30 percent of the money that we receive throughout the year comes during the month of December. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>3:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tFor us to be effective in 2014, it\u2019s really important for us to hear from listeners, here at the end of 2013. Do you want to speak a little bit to that?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Yes. <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is supported and made possible by you, the listener. We\u2019re on this station at your request, and by God\u2019s favor, and by your generosity. The good thing is, Bob\u2014just around the urgency of this moment\u2014we\u2019ve had some families, who\u2019ve come alongside FamilyLife, who\u2019ve said, \u201cWe\u2019ll take $50 that\u2019s given by a donor, and we\u2019ll turn it into $200.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes, it\u2019s really pretty cool. They\u2019ve agreed to match every donation we receive, during the month of December, on a three-to-one basis. They have just recently increased the total amount that they\u2019re willing to give. So, now, they will match every dollar three-to-one, up to a total of $800,000. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>4:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat\u2019s the reason we\u2019re coming to listeners and saying, \u201cCan you help us take full advantage of this matching gift?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I turn to you, as a listener, and say: \u201cHave you benefitted from <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>? Do you agree with a ministry that is standing strong for biblical marriage and doing that in a loving way\u2014not in a confrontational way\u2014but just attempting to represent the love of Christ to the culture\u2014but stand firm for the truth\u2014and equip you and your family and other families with the biblical blueprints?\u201d If you agree with that, then I want to ask you: \u201cWould you stand with us? We\u2019re in need of folks stepping up, and stepping out, and helping us stand firm.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You can go to FamilyLifeToday.com and make an online donation. Just click the button that says, \u201cI CARE.\u201d Or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY to make a donation over the phone. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>5:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf you\u2019d like to mail a check to us, our mailing address is P O Box 7111, Little Rock, AR. Our zip code is 72223. Keep in mind every donation you make is going to be matched three-to-one. Be as generous as you can be and help us take full advantage of this matching-gift opportunity.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And, Bob, as you\u2019re talking, it occurs to me that I used $50 as a number. For some\u2014that may not be reachable\u2014for others, they may be able to do more and really help us. So, I would say to those of you who can really step up and increase your giving\u2014even if you\u2019ve given earlier this month or earlier this year\u2014your gift will be quadrupled. So, $1,000 becomes $4,000\u2014$5,000 becomes $20,000. I don\u2019t know what your capabilities are and what God\u2019s doing\u2014follow His leadership is what I would encourage you to do. If you can\u2019t give, would you pray for us? Pray that God would provide and enable us to stand firm.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>6:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think, Bob, there is nothing the enemy would delight in more than silencing a voice for the family today, in this generation, at this time in history. I think it\u2019s real. I think the spiritual battle is that real. He would love to shut us up.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Well, one of the other areas of spiritual battle that\u2019s very real for a lot of our listeners is the area of shame. It has become a paralyzing factor in their lives. That\u2019s the reason we asked Ed Welch to join us and talk about that subject. This is Part Two of the conversation I had with him, not long ago.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> We are talking about the subject of shame. I guess we\u2019ve kind of defined it\u2014a sense of something makes me unworthy\u2014something makes me less than human.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong> Great way to put it\u2014because of something we have done or, more often, something that has been done to us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> A person whose life is controlled by shame\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong> And there are a lot of us around there; yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>7:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> How is that going to play out? What are going to be the issues that that is going to create for that person throughout their day \/ throughout their week?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong> It depends if you\u2019re a male or a female. If you\u2019re a male, it\u2019s going to come out as boasting. It\u2019s going to come out as anger\u2014anger is a great way to defend yourself\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cDon\u2019t see me. Don\u2019t look at me.\u201d It\u2019s going to look like trying to build a reputation by what we do. It\u2019s going to look like putting ourselves up and higher because we feel so low.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tFor a woman: \u201cWhat\u2019s it going to look like?\u201d It\u2019s going to feel like: \u201cThere\u2019s something wrong with me. No matter what I do, I can\u2019t do it quite right.\u201d There is a sense that: \u201cI don\u2019t measure up to the people who are around me. Who will accept me?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tFor people who have been mistreated\u2014I think one of the reasons that they live with that is because they\u2014\u201cThey\u2019re getting what they deserve.\u201d They feel like they\u2019re unworthy women\u2014so, they should be treated in unworthy ways.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>8:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think there are actually people who sin because they feel like they are such unworthy people that they have to <em>act <\/em>like unworthy people. It\u2019s all over the place out there, Bob.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> It\u2019s interesting that there\u2019s a difference between how men and women respond to shame\u2014men trying to deny it by putting something else in front of you\u2014hoping that you\u2019ll look at that instead of the shameful part of them\u2014women almost absorbing it more than a man will.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Why do you think that is?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong> That\u2019s a good question.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Is it culturally fine\u2014do you think? I mean, is it just not culturally acceptable for a man to be publicly ashamed? That would be too much for a man to bear\u2014so, he\u2019s got to keep a fa\u00e7ade in front of that?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong> I think so. It\u2019s not just this culture. It\u2019s probably any culture that you will find those same things. Men, somehow, believe they\u2019re press reports\u2014that they can be something; they can cover up shame, and they\u2019re not going to be seen. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>9:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think women, probably, more often, recognize that there\u2019s no covering up this\u2014this is the way they feel, and they\u2019re going to have to learn how to live with the thing.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Is it important for us to be disclosing about the shame of our past? I ask that because my wife would say, \u201cYou know, in some circles, it just would not be appropriate for you to bring up some of your shameful past.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong> I guess my particular interest is that there are no secret places before the Lord. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong> If there is this cubby hole where we don\u2019t want anybody\u2014even God Himself\u2014to move into that place. I would suggest that is a dangerous thing, and the beauty of Scripture will not have access to our entire being. So, in that sense, we would, at least, say: \u201cThose dark places\u2014they have to be put into words before the Lord. Then, we have to hear His response to those words.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAs to whether we speak to other people, that\u2019s a slightly different question. Frankly, I think it\u2019s a less important question. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>10:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhether we speak those things to other people or not is going to be secondary because once we\u2019ve spoken to the Lord, and we begin to understand His desire for the marginalized and for the unclean, to speak them to another human being is just not going to be the biggest deal.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> But, you know, there are some people who will say: \u201cI\u2019ve got this shameful part of my past, and I\u2019ve dealt with that with the Lord. So, it\u2019s closed off.\u201d I\u2019m going, \u201cI\u2019m not sure you\u2019ve dealt with it with the Lord.\u201d When you talk about speaking it to the Lord, that\u2019s not just going to God and saying: \u201cOkay, I know I messed up here. Let\u2019s just forget about that; okay?\u201d That\u2019s not dealing with it with the Lord; is it?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong> No. As you were talking, I was trying to think: \u201cDo I know a person who\u2019s like that? Have I heard things like that?\u201d You must have heard things like that before.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Well, I\u2019ll give you an illustration. I was sitting down with a guy, recently\u2014he\u2019s at a crisis point in his marriage. His marriage has been in isolation for more than a decade.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>11:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHe and his wife have been living in the same house, but they have not been husband and wife. He has, in more recent years, drifted and become unfaithful to his wife. It became exposed. As we were talking together about what was going on\u2014and is he going to rebuild his marriage\u2014and how all of this is happening\u2014I was encouraging him that he needed to find someone that he could sit down with and unpack history\u2014talk through issues\u2014not just about his marriage\u2014but issues that go way back in his life. He said to me\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong> In a sense, you\u2019re practicing to speak that to another human being so you\u2019re able to, then, speak it to the Lord.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Well, I think that is maybe a part of what I\u2019m getting at here because in that conversation, he said to me: \u201cThere are some things in my life that I\u2019ve never talked to anybody about. My wife doesn\u2019t know anything about them; I\u2019ve never talked to anybody about them.\u201d Then he said, \u201cAnd I\u2019m not going to talk to you about them either.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>12:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong> There\u2019s a rule that is almost inviolable, I think. What we see in our relationship with other people, we\u2019re going to see in our relationship with the Lord. If a person is saying: \u201cNo! Stay away from these places,\u201d you can bet that they have said the same thing to the Lord\u2014they have not spoken openly and honestly to the Lord. That\u2019s not the way we were intended to be. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe way we were intended to be was openness\u2014nothing to hide. It doesn\u2019t mean we are perfect; but it means that we are so persuaded, that we rest in the reputation of another, that there\u2019s nothing to hide. That doesn\u2019t mean we necessarily air everything in our lives; but if we thought it would be helpful for another person, we\u2019d be willing to do it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCould you imagine that? That\u2019s the way humans were intended to live. Christians and non-Christians are all begging for the same thing. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>13:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThis person you\u2019re talking about\u2014the image is sort of a door being slammed shut\u2014and that is <em>not <\/em>the imagery in Scripture. We open the door of our hearts to the Lord; and He, obviously, has opened the door of His character to us.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I think, if I went to my friend and I said: \u201cOkay, this stuff that you don\u2019t want to talk to me about\u2014and that\u2019s fine\u2014but have you talked to Lord about this?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong>\u00a0 I think he\u2019d say, \u201cYes.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> That\u2019s the point I\u2019m getting to\u2014\u2014that these folks say, \u201cYes, I\u2019ve dealt with this with the Lord.\u201d But they haven\u2019t dealt with it the way you\u2019re encouraging us to deal with it; right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong> Absolutely. What would be a potential follow-up would be: \u201cWhat has He said? What has the Lord given you, that\u2019s been sweet and liberating, in light of the things that you\u2019ve wrestled with?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Because if you\u2019ve talked to the Lord about this, He is not going to speak condemnation to you, if you\u2019re in Christ; right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong> Absolutely.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> So, if you\u2019ve really gone before the Lord and dealt with this before the Lord, your response should be a liberated response.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>14:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong> Perhaps, I should have many more of these illustrations in my life; but when I am really excited about something, I can\u2019t shut up. [Laughter] Get me talking about my grandkids or whatever it might be\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong> \u2014and that\u2019s the experience we\u2019re looking for\u2014for someone who has known shame\u2014who has experienced union with Christ in such a way that they share in His reputation. In such a way that they\u2019ve read Scripture and they have realized that Jesus has said, on page, after page, after page: \u201cYou belong to Me.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong> Okay? \u201cPeople who were not My people are now My people.\u201d That\u2019s the kind of thing you want to shout out to everyone around you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> One of the great privileges of what Dennis and I get to do, here on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>,is that we are often talking to people who have shameful experiences in their past\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong> Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014who have experienced the liberation and are able to be transparent about it for the benefit of others. In that\u2014the experience of God\u2019s redeeming work in their life\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>15:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis and I have often commented: \u201cThere\u2019s nothing more exciting than to hear a redemption story.\u201d We love talking to smart guys, like you; but to talk to somebody who can give us a testimony of redemption\u2014that\u2019s the radio we walk out of and go, \u201cThat was a <em>great <\/em>radio program\u2014right there!\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong> Absolutely.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You know what I mean?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Because there is something in staring into the reality of redemption that is just overwhelming.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong> It is. The Scripture just calls us to hope over and over again. There\u2019s something better than you think in front of you. That\u2019s what those stories are\u2014they\u2019re stories of hope. Occasionally, I\u2019ve had people, who\u2019ve wrestled with shame, say to me, \u201cCould you introduce me to one other person\u2014who has experienced these things and is on this road that is hopeful\u2014where the shame is not nipping at their heels all the time?\u201d That\u2019s often the kind of person you have on your radio.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> The person who is daily assaulted by the reality of his shame\u2014does that person not fully understand the love of God in Christ?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>16:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong> I would put it a slightly different way. The Lord responds to that person and says: \u201cWhy don\u2019t you just sit down and just listen? I\u2019m going to tell you a story. I\u2019m pretty sure that story, in itself, is not going to leave your life transformed; but then, I\u2019m going to tell you another story. Then, I\u2019m going to take shame on Myself.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe story of Jesus is a story of shame\u2014from start to finish. The story of the crucifixion\u2014the horror surrounding the events of the crucifixion\u2014are trying to say, \u201cThis was a shameful crucifixion,\u201d\u2014the One who was spit on, the One who was naked, the One who was rejected by all the people\u2014Jews and Gentiles. Jesus is saying, \u201cKeep listening to the story.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>17:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI\u2019m thinking of Hebrews 2:10\u2014where it was appropriate for our Redeemer to go <em>through<\/em> suffering. It wasn\u2019t just simply because He was the Passover Lamb, who was going to be slain, and He bears everything that was ours. It was also appropriate so He could be fully man\u2014to know the pain that we experience. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat\u2019s where the story goes\u2014where Jesus says, \u201cJust let me tell you My own story of shame.\u201d Then, we begin to find: \u201cHe\u2019s my people. He knows what I\u2019m talking about.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong> That\u2019s a little bit different than: \u201cWe don\u2019t know the love of Christ.\u201d In a sense, it\u2019s really very tender. It\u2019s just: \u201cI <em>know<\/em> that, if you struggle with shame, you feel like an utter outcast. You feel like these words, especially words from the Holy One Himself, could not be directed to you. So, let me tell you, over, and over, and over again\u2014and I don\u2019t mind saying it again,\u2014\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong> \u2014 \u201cAnd tomorrow, when you forget all these things\u2014\u201c\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u201cI\u2019ll say it again.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong> \u2014 \u201cand you feel like\u201d \u2014and Jesus says, \u201cYou feel like I have turned My face from you\u2014well, I will tell you the stories again.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>18:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And I love the fact that you brought up the \u201cturning of the face.\u201d That\u2019s a motif in Scripture\u2014in Deuteronomy 28\u2014where the blessings and the cursings are laid out. The real blessing of God is for His face to be turned toward you\u2014for it to shine on you. I mean, we have all of these expressions: \u201cGod\u2019s attention;\u201d \u201cGod\u2019s face is with us.\u201d But when we are cast out\u2014when we sin\u2014what Jesus experienced on the cross\u2014the Father turning His face away\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong> That\u2019s what you do with shameful people\u2014you don\u2019t even want to see them.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You don\u2019t want to look at them. What we need to understand is, because the Father turned His face away from Jesus, He never turns His face away from us again; does He?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong> Well, let\u2019s take that Numbers 6 benediction that you were talking about. Here\u2019s Numbers 6, for a shameful person: Here\u2019s the way God Himself has said you\u2019re to be blessed.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>19:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOkay, are you listening? \u201cMay the Lord bless you and keep you. May the Lord shine His countenance on you and be gracious to you,\u201d\u2014No, stop! Stop! You\u2019re not paying attention\u2014you think this is for somebody else and it is not for you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong> No, stop! This is God Himself speaking to you. He is on the prowl for people who experience shame because He knows our shame, and the shamed are His people. So, listen! Listen again\u2014He turns His face to you. When He turns His face to you, it means that it is strictly to show favor to you. That\u2019s what it means to have His face just turn to us.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThen, to link it to that Second Corinthians, Chapter 3 passage: \u201cAnd, oh, by the way, when He turns His face toward you, it means that your face is going to shine to the world.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>20:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tContrary to your experience of being this disgusting outcast, the face of Jesus is going to make your face shine. In contrast to you thinking you should be on the shelf, and that you certainly are unworthy to be a representative of Jesus, He prefers His ambassadors to be weak. Somehow, that\u2019s the way His glory is most pronounced.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Well, we\u2019ve been listening to the second part of a conversation I had with Dr. Ed Welch on the subject of shame. We have to be reminded, regularly, of the fact that God has forgiven our sin and that He no longer condemns us because there is the voice of one in our ear, condemning us, regularly. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Yes. Early in our marriage, one of the conversations that Barbara and I had\u2014I just remember talking about it because it had to do with my shame and her shame\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>21:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tboth of us\u2014coming into our marriage and starting our relationship together\u2014of a passage in Isaiah, where God talks about\u2014if you come to Him, He\u2019ll make \u201cstreams in the desert.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> He\u2019ll make roadways where there are none. He\u2019ll give you a path out of it. God delights in taking broken people\u2014in the midst of their shame and in the midst of all the ways they\u2019ve failed\u2014His forgiveness\u2014His grace is more powerful than our shame. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOur issue is: \u201cCan we believe that is true? Can we trust Him and not believe our feelings that we kind of allow to hang onto us like baggage; and instead\u2014cling to the reality, and the promises of Scripture, and what He says about us\u2014that we are forgiven. We are in His family. We\u2019re His children, and He loves us.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Ed has written a book on the subject of shame called <em>Shame Interrupted.<\/em> \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>22:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt\u2019s a book that I think helps people explore the issue. It helps them understand how shame can come to control our lives and how Jesus came to liberate us from our sin and from our shame.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe\u2019ve got copies of Ed Welch\u2019s book, <em>Shame Interrupted<\/em>, in our <em>FamilyLife Today <\/em>Resource Center. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com for more information on how you can order the book. Again, the website: FamilyLifeToday.com. You can order online if you\u2019d like, or you can order by phone. Our toll-free number is 1-800-FL-TODAY; 1-800-358-6329. That\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then, the word, \u201cTODAY\u201d. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, keep in mind as Dennis mentioned earlier, we have something special going on here in the last few weeks of 2013. Some friends of the ministry have promised that they will match every donation we receive this month three-to-one.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>23:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf we get a donation from you for $100, they\u2019re going to match it so the benefit to FamilyLife is $400. In recent days, they have agreed to match a total of $800,000 coming into FamilyLife. So, if we\u2019re able to take full advantage of that, it means more than $3 million-worth of benefit to this ministry.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCan you help us out? Would you consider making a year-end contribution to support this ministry\u2014to help cover the cost of producing and syndicating this program, and to help us reach even more people in 2014\u2014to help strengthen marriages and families all around the world? We appreciate your support. You can make a year-end contribution when you go to FamilyLifeToday.com. Click the button that says, \u201cI CARE\u201d, to make an online donation; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY. You can make a donation by phone. Or, you can mail a check to <em>FamilyLife Today. <\/em>Our mailing address is P O Box 7111, Little Rock, AR, and our zip code is 72223. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>24:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe do hope to hear from you, and we hope you\u2019ll pray for us. Pray that we can take full advantage of this matching-gift opportunity and that God will provide all we need to do ministry effectively in 2014.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe hope you can join us back again tomorrow when we\u2019ll continue to interact with Ed Welch on the subject of shame. I hope you can tune in for that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHelp for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2013 FamilyLife. 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