{"id":302881,"date":"2013-12-16T12:00:00","date_gmt":"2013-12-16T17:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/shame-uncovered\/"},"modified":"2013-12-16T12:00:00","modified_gmt":"2013-12-16T17:00:00","slug":"shame-uncovered","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/shame-uncovered\/","title":{"rendered":"Shame Uncovered"},"content":{"rendered":"","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Ed Welch explains how shame controls and often defines so many Christians&#8217; lives.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2013-12-16.mp3","podmotor_file_id":"","podmotor_episode_id":"","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:","filesize":"22.81M","filesize_raw":"23912868","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2822],"tags":[2385],"podcast_series":[7988],"cwp_profile":[9004],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-302881","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-growing-in-your-faith","tag-shame","podcast_series-shame-interrupted","cwp_profile-ed-welch","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/302881\/shame-uncovered","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/302881\/shame-uncovered","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"QSkd1VPBpU\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/shame-uncovered\/\">Shame Uncovered<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/shame-uncovered\/embed\/#?secret=QSkd1VPBpU\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Shame Uncovered&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"QSkd1VPBpU\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"uagb_featured_image_src":{"full":["https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg",508,508,false]},"uagb_author_info":{"display_name":"kfairris@familylife.com","author_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/author\/kfairrisfamilylife-com\/"},"uagb_comment_info":0,"uagb_excerpt":"Ed Welch explains how shame controls and often defines so many Christians' lives.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2013-12-16.pdf","transcript_content":"<strong>Bob: <\/strong>What does the Bible have to say on the subject of shame? Author and counselor Ed Welch says, at one level, everything in the Bible is about shame.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong> We were originally created without shame. Shame came into the human condition. Now, the <em>entire Bible<\/em> becomes the story: \u201cWhat do I do with the fact that I feel naked, and unclean, and cast out? What do I do with that problem?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tFor me, in thinking about shame over the last few years, it\u2019s not simply that I\u2019ve been educated by Scripture about a particular problem. It\u2019s become a completely different way of reading Scripture; and especially, the story of Jesus. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Monday, December 16<sup>th<\/sup>. Our host is the President of FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. What does the Bible have to say about shame? How do we deal with our shame? We\u2019ll have a conversation on that subject today with Ed Welch. Stay tuned.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>1:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today. <\/em>Thanks for joining us on the Monday edition. You know, I remember, growing up\u2014I don\u2019t think my mom said it to me much, but I remember her saying to the dog when he would not wait to go outside to go to the bathroom\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I wondered how you were going to say that on the radio.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> She would take the dog\u2014and she would look at him and say, \u201cYou should be ashamed of yourself!\u201d She would scold the dog: \u201cYou should be ashamed!\u201d I think the question that comes out of that is: \u201cShould we be ashamed? As Christians, should we be people who are ashamed?\u201d That\u2019s kind of an interesting question; isn\u2019t it?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> It is very interesting because we have some listeners, right now, who are kind of cringing. They go, \u201cYou know, I grew up in a home where I was told, \u2018You should be ashamed of yourself.\u2019\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> They grew up under that load. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>2:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think we have some fresh teaching and a fresh perspective of grace, and God\u2019s love, and what the proper perspective of false shame is, and what real shame is all about.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Before we unpack that, something has happened in recent days that we should update our listeners about. We have had, all month long, a matching-gift challenge that we\u2019ve been sharing with listeners. Every dollar a listener donates, during the month of December, we have some friends of the ministry who have agreed to match that donation with $3 of their own.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> That\u2019s right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> We\u2019ve seen a lot of listeners who have stepped up and said: \u201cI would like to help <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> out. I\u2019ll make a $25, $50, or $100 donation.\u201d Some have done more than that. We\u2019re grateful for all of the gifts. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe donors we talked to had originally said, \u201cWe have to cap this at $500,000.\u201d In recent days, they\u2019ve come back to us and said, \u201cYou know, because listeners are responding, we\u2019re going to expand the matching gift.\u201d It\u2019s now up to $800,000. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>3:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Yes. We\u2019re coming to you today and simply asking: \u201cIf you\u2019ve benefitted from <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>\u2014and what we do here in practical, Biblical teaching for your marriage and family, and helping you reach other people\u2014if you\u2019ve benefitted, we\u2019d like to ask you to stand with us and keep this broadcast on the air with a generous donation\u2014$25, $50, or $100. All of it will be quadrupled.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> So if you give $100, it will become $400.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> What\u2019s exciting for us is that if we\u2019re able to take full advantage of this new increased matching-gift opportunity\u2014that means that the benefit to FamilyLife will be $3.2 million. Now, that sounds like a ton of money. That helps us pay for producing and syndicating this radio program. It helps us with the cost of operating our website. It helps us with the resources we make available throughout the year. It helps us with the events that we produce.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt really is vital for the ongoing operation of <em>FamilyLife Today <\/em>that we hear from as many listeners as possible during the month of December.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>4:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And that\u2019s why these families have come alongside us. They want to increase the number of people who give; and they want to increase the amount of money that you give because they believe, as we do, that there are a few key messages in our nation today that must be loud, and clear, and be carried back to our homes. That is: \u201cWhat does the Bible teach around marriage and family, and how can we be successful in this most basic unit of civilization?\u201d If you believe, with us, that that\u2019s important, we need to hear from you. Help us take full advantage of the $800,000 match.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You can donate, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY to make a donation. We\u2019re grateful for whatever you\u2019re able to do. We appreciate your support, here, at the end of the year; and we do hope to hear from you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, we\u2019re going to listen in on Part One of a conversation that I had\u2014we should explain to our listeners why you\u2019re not in this conversation.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>5:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Well, Bob, as you know, I was ashamed. [Laughter] \u2014I was ashamed I wasn\u2019t here.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Too ashamed to talk about shame. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I was actually recovering from anesthesia\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014because I had shoulder surgery.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes, you did.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I want to tell you something\u2014that\u2019s not for the weak. That was a major deal. It had me out of commission for a while. In fact, Barbara was not happy with me because she lost a bunch of her labor. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Well, the day that Dr. Ed Welch was scheduled to be here was the day right after you wound up being scheduled for the shoulder surgery. So, our listeners are going to hear my conversation with Dr. Ed Welch as the two of us talked about shame. Dr. Ed Welch is with the Christian Counseling and Education Foundation in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. He\u2019s a well-known author and speaker. He has written a book called <em>Shame Interrupted<\/em>, which was the reason we sat down to talk about this issue of shame.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>6:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> How prevalent is the issue of shame among Christians? I know you don\u2019t have a survey that gives us an answer\u2014but just as you\u2019ve interacted with people\u2014are people buried under a pile of shame, for the most part?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong> I think the first thing we\u2019d think of would be somebody who\u2019s been sexually-violated. They would have the corner of the market on shame.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Okay.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong> I work as an instructor in a seminary, and I have these great students. They\u2019re like the perfect students. They go the gamut from probably 19 to 75. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Wow!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong> They\u2019re people with all kinds of ministry experience\u2014they\u2019re perfect. They want to deal with their own hearts\u2014and then move from there and what the Lord has given them\u2014to give those things to others who are hurting. I was talking about shame one day\u2014this was in passing\u2014this was a number of years ago.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>7:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI said: \u201cHow many of you struggle with shame in a way that is palpable every single day? In a way that affects your life\u2014your life is detoured in certain ways because of shame?\u201d I did offer a personal illustration because there was something in my life, at that particular moment, and I decided to share it. I felt like I was walking the plank by myself.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> That\u2019s a little risky\u2014yes!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong> I don\u2019t think I had done it before, and I wasn\u2019t planning on saying it to the class. I said: \u201cRight at this point in my life, I have an experience of shame that just hits me every single day\u2014anybody else?\u201d Before I finished the sentence, <em>every single person <\/em>in the room raised their hand. This is like the \u201cbest of...\u201d\u2014this is a successful\u2014\u201ca successful group\u201d\u2014and every one of them acknowledged it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Your own experience of shame that you were confessing, at that moment\u2014this was in a season of your life. You would not say that your life has been characterized by an ongoing battle with shame, every day, for the last forty-plus years; would you?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>8:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong> I would not\u2014no. So much shame comes out of our own pasts and the way we were treated by our parents\u2014the way we were victimized by other people. I had parents that were strangely encouraging, and I haven\u2019t been victimized. Fewer males are victimized than women, certainly\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong> \u2014but I have not been victimized in shameful ways.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> So, we may go through shameful seasons; but some people, because of how they\u2019ve been victimized, really battle this all the time.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong> I think the challenge, Bob, is\u2014in our particular church culture, we don\u2019t identify shame that much. It\u2019s sort of this background noise. It\u2019s sort of under the heading of: \u201cI just don\u2019t feel like I belong. I look, and I see everybody else, and they just all fit in. They\u2019re put-together. They\u2019re stories are cool. Somehow, I don\u2019t belong. I feel marginalized in some way.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>9:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong> Sometimes, the words get a little bit stronger: \u201cI know what Jesus says, but I live life feeling unworthy.\u201d I think there are a lot of people, in church, who struggle with it; but it\u2019s hard for them to find the words. If you don\u2019t have the words, you can\u2019t move into Scripture to see the solutions.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I\u2019ll illustrate what you\u2019re talking about. I, for a season, got together with a group of guys pretty regularly. We\u2019d meet at a local restaurant, and sit around and eat cheese dip or whatever else was going on, and we\u2019d talk about our lives. Early on, with this group, I decided: \u201cLet\u2019s try to get below the surface if we can.\u201d I knew if we were going to do that, it meant I had to start. I had to say, \u201cLet me tell you about my life.\u201d I talked about my life pretty candidly\u2014stuff that had happened in the past\u2014I think surprisingly candidly to this group of guys because they weren\u2019t sure what they\u2019d gotten themselves into. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut the next time we met, I asked another guy. I said, \u201cTonight\u2019s the night to tell your story.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>10:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI knew this guy was a pretty transparent individual\u2014so I would get the goods from him. I remember, as he was starting to tell his story, he said: \u201cSo, I graduated from high school and I\u2026.\u201d He was starting to move on. Given my vocation as an interviewer, I stopped him and I said: \u201cWell now, wait. Let me just ask you: \u2018Were you a virgin when you graduated high school?\u2019\u201d He looked at me and said, \u201cSeriously?\u201d I said, \u201cYes, I want to know.\u201d He said, \u201cNo.\u201d I said, \u201cOkay.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think everybody else in the group was like, \u201cOh, we\u2019re telling <em>that<\/em> kind of stuff to one another?!\u201d But, to their credit, they all came back. Here\u2019s the point it got to\u2014by the time we got to the fifth guy in the group, who shared his story, his story was having been an alcoholic for many years to the point where it almost cost him his marriage\u2014almost cost him his life. He had now been sober for 23 years. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>11:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHe said to me afterwards: \u201cYou know, when I first started coming here to this church,\u201d he said, \u201cI thought, \u2018I don\u2019t know that a guy like me could be a member here, given my background.\u2019\u201d He said, \u201cSitting here around this group, I\u2019ve got a pretty cleaned-up story, compared to some of you guys.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe all have those things in our lives that we look back on with regret\u2014with shame\u2014but we keep it all pretty neat and tidy for public consumption; don\u2019t we?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong> I love the story about your group. That\u2019s close to heaven on earth. You know what I\u2019m saying?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I do.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong> Where there is a\u2014you\u2019re shockingly changing the rules\u2014but you\u2019re not changing the rules at all because the New Testament is after the tax collector and the sinner.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong> We should probably identify the ways that shame can come at us. It comes at us in at least two ways. One is\u2014it comes at us by way of our own sin.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>12:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob, what you\u2019re talking about in that group is\u2014you\u2019re saying, \u201cLet\u2019s be willing to talk about our sins because that is some of the stuff that is underneath the surface;\u201d but there are different kinds of sins. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tFor example, I found myself confessing, this morning, a lack of desperation in my life. This is a good time for desperation in my life; and I find my instincts are, \u201cHow can I manage this complicated situation?\u201d And I\u2019m willing to confess that. I\u2019m willing to confess it because I think there might be some other people who would raise their hands and say, \u201cYes, I know what you mean.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThere are certain sins that we would confess, but there are other sins that are a whole lot harder to confess. That\u2019s the kind of thing you were getting into with the group. That\u2019s when Jesus identifies Himself with tax collectors and the sinners. Everybody, obviously, is a sinner; but these were people whose sins were flagrant. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong> They were <em>known<\/em> by their sins. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong> I don\u2019t tend to be <em>known<\/em> by my sins; but people, who experience shame that is connected to their sin\u2014they feel like that\u2019s what identifies them.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>13:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong> So that\u2019s one way shame comes. The other is\u2014and this is a tougher one\u2014shame comes by the sins of other people: It feels dirty. You feel disgusting. You feel unclean. Your instinct, I believe, is\u2014if you have to confess something\u2014and you go around\u2014and we can all find something to confess\u2014but the challenge is you\u2019ll never be able to confess shame away. The treatment is not by way of confession.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> So, somebody who\u2019s been sexually-violated, obviously, can feel that sense of shame because somebody else sinned against them. Are there other ways that we are sinned against\u2014non-sexual ways\u2014where we bear shame?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong> Well, let\u2019s try to normalize it. Let\u2019s try to place all of us in this category. I\u2019ve been thinking about rejection recently\u2014and the number of people I speak with where that is such a prominent issue. What is rejection? Rejection is: \u201cYou don\u2019t belong. There\u2019s something different about you. You\u2019re not part of this particular inner circle.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>14:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhether it\u2019s the sort of drip, drip, drip of disparaging words that we would receive from significant people\u2014or this crisis of rejection\u2014such as people who have been divorced because of the sins of a particular person.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You get fired from a job, or it can come at you in a number of different ways.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong> Absolutely.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Rejection is a subset or leads to shame\u2014I guess, is part of the hypothesis here?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong> Well, shame is\u2014you feeling unacceptable. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Okay.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong> That\u2019s the core. We\u2019re seen by other people and we\u2019re unclean. There\u2019s something dirty and defiled about us\u2014we don\u2019t want it to be seen. The other picture is we feel like an outcast. We feel like we simply do not belong. There, rejection would almost be part of the definition, if you will, of shame.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> It is interesting.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>15:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI\u2019ve looked more carefully at Genesis 2 over the last number of years and have come up with this hypothesis that I\u2019ll bounce off you, and you can react to it. The hypothesis is that: In the creation of the man and the woman, God has not yet finished. He has not yet reached the pinnacle; but that when He makes the two into one in the marriage, He has created His grandest work. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf that\u2019s the case, then the last thing He says about that couple is that they were \u201cnaked and not ashamed.\u201d I don\u2019t think that\u2019s just necessarily not ashamed in their nakedness, but they had no cause for shame about anything in their lives; did they?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong> There wasn\u2019t this sense of: \u201cI\u2019m unacceptable. I don\u2019t fit in. I am rejected because of who I am and what I\u2019ve done.\u201d There was no sense of defilement\u2014there is no sense they had to cover up so they couldn\u2019t be seen before God or other people.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think what you\u2019re saying\u2014and there are so many things we could talk about here\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>16:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tbut what we\u2019re trying to say, first, is that this is a whole lot bigger than sexual violation\u2014even though sexual violation is a horrifying version of shame. That\u2019s the first thing we\u2019re trying to do; but if we\u2019re right, Bob\u2014that shame is part of the human <em>condition<\/em>\u2014then, we\u2019d better find it all over the place in Scripture. I think what you\u2019re saying is Scripture is saying, right from the beginning, that we were originally created without shame. Shame came into the human condition. Now, the <em>entire Bible<\/em> becomes the story: \u201cWhat do I do with the fact that I feel naked, and unclean, and cast out? What do I do with that problem?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tFor me, in thinking about shame over the last few years, it\u2019s not simply that I\u2019ve been educated by Scripture about a particular problem that has really helped me in my own life. It\u2019s become a completely different way of reading Scripture; and especially, the story of Jesus. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I\u2019m going back to your classroom, where everybody raised their hands. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>17:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHonestly, I\u2019m thinking: \u201cHad I been in your classroom, I can look back on my life and there are things that I\u2019m ashamed of; but I don\u2019t, every day, wrestle with this sense of shame as an oppressive part of my life. So, how should a guy, like me, get in touch with my shame; or do I even really need to?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong> What you can do is\u2014you can just sit back and enjoy the story of Scripture and how God is a God for the underdog\u2014for the outcast. Hear this amazing story of mercy, and be wowed by it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Be delighted by it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong> Absolutely.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> But the person, who is like the person in your class, who said: \u201cEvery day, I\u2019m aware of my shame,\u201d\u2014for that person, it\u2019s not as simple as just being wowed by God\u2019s mercy. They\u2019ve got to process this at a little deeper level; don\u2019t they?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>18:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong> Perhaps, if we would set a goal for our conversation together, it would be to be surprised by Scripture in such a way that there is hope. See, the experience of shame, Bob, is that: \u201cThe promises of God are not that relevant to me. So, why bother reading the Scripture? It sounds good, but it\u2019s not necessarily personal\u2014not to mention the fact that, when you read Scripture, you\u2019re confronted with the person of God and the thought of being face-to-face with Him\u2014where He sees you\u2014is not the most comfortable experience.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong> But for a person, who wrestles with shame, to recognize that God Himself is interested in the marginalized. When you feel like you\u2019re not marginalized, you wonder, \u201cWhat\u2019s wrong with me?\u201d\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong> \u2014that the story of Scripture is Jesus Christ makes a beeline for the tax collectors. The tax collectors were the people who were marginalized and outcasts from their culture\u2014the sinners\u2014people who were <em>known <\/em>by the things that they had done\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>19:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tor we can add these people with physical disabilities\u2014people with leprosy.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong> People with the issue of blood\u2014like the woman in Luke, Chapter 8\u2014to see that these are the centerpieces of Scripture.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> This is who God gravitates\u2014to Him.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong> These are God\u2019s people\u2014to see that\u2019s what the kingdom of heaven is comprised of\u2014those people\u2014to see that and to have hope\u2014and then, perhaps, to read the story of Jesus through the lens of\u2014\u201cJust watch Him. Just watch Him.\u201d For example, He chooses to be born into poverty. Poverty is shameful. You are looked down upon if you\u2019re born into poverty\u2014not to mention the sort of strange family context into which He was born.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou watch Him in His initial public ministry and, almost from the get-go: \u201cHe couldn\u2019t be the Messiah because He keeps associating with the tax collectors and sinners.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> The wrong folks.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>20:00<\/strong> \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong> I think one of the most beautiful features of that\u2014which is hard for us to see unless you say, \u201cJesus is going after the shamed people,\u201d\u2014He <em>eats <\/em>with the tax collectors and sinners. In that culture\u2014not that dissimilar to our culture\u2014when you eat with somebody, you\u2019re saying: \u201cYou\u2019re my type. You\u2019re my people.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong> It is a sign of fellowship.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> The junior high lunch room\u2014we eat with the people we want to be like. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong> Absolutely. To put it in different terms: \u201cIt\u2019s this hug that Christ extends to us that we would never expect the Holy One to extend to one who feels unclean.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Well, we\u2019ve been listening to the first part of a conversation I had with Dr. Ed Welch, not long ago, on the subject of shame. The extended conversation is available, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com if our listeners would like to hear the complete dialogue.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>21:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And just listening to that, Bob, I was just reflecting back on what the gospel of Jesus Christ does for us in our lives. He removes our shame. To that listener who really struggles with this\u2014who feels like they\u2019ve been marginalized in their life\u2014this is really the message for you. The gospel brings freedom\u2014setting you free from the guilt and the shame. It really has to become, I think, an issue of faith and belief: \u201cWill you trust God at what He said about you? Do you believe you\u2019re forgiven?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I love Romans 8:1 that says, \u201cThere is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.\u201d That\u2019s a declaration that our shame has been dealt with. We don\u2019t need to be ashamed any longer. That\u2019s easier said than felt, sometimes; but that\u2019s what Ed Welch is getting at in the book that he has written on the subject of shame. It\u2019s called <em>Shame Interrupted: How God Lifts the Pain of Worthlessness and Rejection<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>22:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat may be something that you experience. It may be something that a friend of yours has confided in you. They may feel consumed with this sense of worthlessness, and rejection, and shame. This would be a great book for you to read through together with a friend and interact around the subjects.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tGo to FamilyLifeToday.com for more information on how to get a copy of Ed Welch\u2019s book, <em>Shame Interrupted. <\/em>Again, the website is FamilyLifeToday.com. You can also call us, toll-free, at 1-800-FL-TODAY. That\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then, the word, \u201cTODAY\u201d. Ask about how to get a copy of Ed Welch\u2019s book, <em>Shame Interrupted<\/em>,when you get in touch with us.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, let me remind you of something that Dennis mentioned earlier in today\u2019s program. We have a very generous matching-gift challenge that has been extended to us, here at FamilyLife. In fact, we\u2019ve had some friends of the ministry who have just increased the total amount of the matching-gift challenge.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>23:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf you make a donation to <em>FamilyLife Today <\/em>this month, it\u2019s going to be matched three-to-one. You make a $100 donation\u2014and it, all of a sudden, becomes a $400 donation\u2014a $20 donation is an $80 benefit to <em>FamilyLife Today.<\/em> If we can take full advantage of the matching-gift opportunity, it means more than $3 million-worth of money for FamilyLife to be able to move forward in 2014. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDecember is a critical month for ministries like ours. Let me encourage you: \u201cIf God has used this ministry in your life in some way this year, consider being as generous as you can be.\u201d Go to FamilyLifeToday.com. Click the link that says, \u201cI CARE\u201d, and make an online donation; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY and make your donation over the phone. Or, if you\u2019d prefer to mail a check, our mailing address is P O Box 7111, Little Rock, AR. Our zip code is 72223. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>24:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIn any event, we hope to hear from you. And let me ask you to pray for us\u2014that we would be able to take full advantage of this matching gift and that God would provide exactly what we need for 2014.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI hope you can join us back again tomorrow. We\u2019re going to continue the conversation with Ed Welch about the subject of shame. I hope you can tune in for that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHelp for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2013 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\t1\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>","theme_header_position":"","post_header_is_sticky":"","is_header_overlay":""},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/302881","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/91"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=302881"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/294104"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=302881"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=302881"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=302881"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=302881"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=302881"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=302881"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}