{"id":302793,"date":"2013-08-09T11:00:00","date_gmt":"2013-08-09T15:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/a-friend-betrayed\/"},"modified":"2013-08-09T11:00:00","modified_gmt":"2013-08-09T15:00:00","slug":"a-friend-betrayed","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/a-friend-betrayed\/","title":{"rendered":"A Friend Betrayed"},"content":{"rendered":"","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>John Vawter and Jim Wetherbe talk about the importance of selecting the right friends, as well as being the right kind of friend.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2013-08-09.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:","filesize":"27.27M","filesize_raw":"28599424","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2826],"tags":[4389],"podcast_series":[7965],"cwp_profile":[9310,3433],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-302793","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-men","tag-friendship","podcast_series-high-performance-friendships","cwp_profile-jim-wetherbe","cwp_profile-john-vawter","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/302793\/a-friend-betrayed","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/302793\/a-friend-betrayed","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"M91urnzgY5\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/a-friend-betrayed\/\">A Friend Betrayed<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/a-friend-betrayed\/embed\/#?secret=M91urnzgY5\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;A Friend Betrayed&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"M91urnzgY5\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2013-08-09.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2013-08-09.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> For men to really connect with other men, in meaningful friendships, there has to be a high degree of trust; but how can you know if another friend is trustworthy? Here\u2019s Jim Wetherbe. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jim:<\/strong> There\u2019s another litmus test to it, as well. That is that trust is so high, that if the friend gives you feedback in a constructive manner, you don\u2019t question the motivation. You know it\u2019s coming from a good place. It\u2019s not meant to judge you. It\u2019s not meant for them to feel better about you. In fact, one of the tests we have is: \u201cIf, when we\u2019re giving a friend feedback that is negative, if we take any joy in that, then, something is not right with us.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Friday, August 9<sup>th<\/sup>. Our host is the President of FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, Dennis Rainey, and I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We\u2019re going to talk today about what constitutes real, authentic, high- performance friendships for men. Stay tuned. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. You know, we often think about Jesus and His disciples\u2014those who followed Him, those who believed in Him\u2014I don\u2019t know that we think about those guys as His friends as much as we think about them as His followers. There is a difference between a follower and a friend. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> There really is, but if you read John, Chapter 15\u2014in fact, let me just do that, real quickly here. John 15, verse 12\u2014these are words of Christ. He said: \u201cThis is My commandment that you love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this that someone lays down his life for his friends. You are My friends if you do what I command you. No longer do I call you servants for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father, I have made known to you.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI\u2019d go on and read the rest of it; but I wanted to stop there because Jesus talks about: first of all, the need to love; secondly, the need for self-sacrifice on behalf of a friend; third, on identifying the person as a friend; and then, fourth, disclosure. He said He had revealed everything the Father had told Him. Jesus was vulnerable. He had shared truth. He had shared His life with the disciples. I think that\u2019s why they felt they were His friends\u2014man to man. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to ask the guys, who join us again on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>\u2014Dr. John Vawter and Dr. Jim Wetherbe\u2014\u201cWhat do you guys think?\u201d You guys wrote a book on achieving high- performance friendships. What do you think? Jesus modeled it there; didn\u2019t he? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John:<\/strong> I\u2019ve been asked, for years, to write a book on friendship; and I asked Jim to work with me on the project. When he agreed to work with me on it, we got together and we talked about that passage. I remember, specifically, the look on Jim\u2019s face when he read what I had written about this whole issue of intimacy. He said: \u201cThis is an epiphany. I\u2019ve never thought about that before.\u201d He, actually, then, guided me in thinking about the fact that, in genuine friendship\u2014and we\u2019re talking about male friendships\u2014men have to be intimate with one another. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jim:<\/strong> That\u2019s such a compelling example, in the Garden of Gethsemane\u2014when He takes His friends and He opens it up\u2014because we\u2019ve never thought of Christ lacking macho. When we see that He is willing to reveal what He revealed and that prayer, that He shared openly with His friends, and is well-documented\u2014it really sets an example to all of us, men, that there is nothing lacking in our manhood if we share when we\u2019re hurting. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I want to go to a question you guys address, in your book; and that is, the litmus test for friendships. Where do you start to think about, \u201cWho do you select as a friend?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jim:<\/strong> Well, we talked a little bit about sort of the risks of friendships and the risks of starting friendships. We, actually, subtitled this: <em>A Book for Men<\/em>. The reason we did that is we are making it clear that men are worse at this than women; but there are a lot of lessons that women, actually, quite frankly, seemed to have learned from Christ better than us. Women show interest in others rather than trying to be interesting. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf you watch men engage, it is like, \u201cWhich of us can be the most interesting?\u201d as opposed to, \u201cWhich of us can be the most interested in another person?\u201d There is really very little risk in showing interest in someone because most people are egocentric enough they are happy to share their accomplishments. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br>The other thing that Christ did\u2014and women seem to pick up on better than men\u2014is that He would use a gesture of kindness. If you see someone new move into the neighborhood, women will bring over a dessert or something of that nature\u2014a gesture of kindness. Offering to help another man with a project that he\u2019s involved in\u2014that\u2019s not a really risky way to reach out. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br>One of the dynamics we talk about, in the book, is a phenomenon called mirroring. When we\u2019re thoughtful and kind, we get it right back. If we are rude and inconsiderate, we get it right back. That\u2019s why paying attention to Christ and the example He set for people allowed them to see, \u201cHere\u2019s the type of behavior that is acceptable.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> John, what about you? As you look at the litmus test for selecting a friend, what do you look for? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John:<\/strong> Well, something I wish we had added in the book, and we didn\u2019t\u2014Paul Tournier\u2014the Swiss Christian psychologist\u2014wrote a book called <em>Secrets<\/em>. In the book, he said: \u201cIf we have no friends, then, we are not human because God created us to be social. If we don\u2019t discriminate, because we tell everyone everything, we\u2019re not human because God built us to have discrimination in our relationships.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, I thought about that in terms of life as a series of concentric circles. In the very smallest circle, there is God and myself\u2014which means that there are a few secrets I keep from my wife Susan\u2014not very many\u2014some are sins I\u2019ve committed in the past or some thoughts I don\u2019t want her to know about\u2014but for the most part, she\u2019s close; but God and I are in the first circle. God, Susan, and I are in the second circle. Then, the third circle would be my siblings and my children. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAs the circles get bigger, intimacy disappears. Those people are acquaintances, but they are not friends. So, for me, part of that litmus test is also understanding whether or not this is someone with whom I can be intimate\u2014someone with whom I can share myself\u2014share my inner self. \u201cWill they be respectful of what I share with them?\u201d and also, \u201cWill they, in return, share?\u201d If they don\u2019t, then, I realize that this will be a large concentric circle because there simply will not be any intimacy with them. And so, there are people that I call friends, but they are not high-level friends. I enjoy being with them, but there is no intimacy because they simply refuse to share any part of their life with me. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes, I think anybody who is on Facebook<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> knows what you are talking about because we all have Facebook <em>friends<\/em>. Some of them, we\u2019ve never met in our lives! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jim:<\/strong> That, to a certain extent, kind of cheapens the word, friendship\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jim:<\/strong> \u2014because clicking a button and you are an instant friend\u2014but to the litmus test issue\u2014a friend is someone you\u2019re comfortable thinking out loud in front of and you\u2019re not fearful. You feel safe sharing things that you might be fearful about, or concerned about, or worried about. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThere\u2019s another litmus test to it, as well. That is, the trust is so high that, if the friend gives you feedback in a constructive manner, you don\u2019t question the motivation. You know it\u2019s coming from a good place. It\u2019s not meant to judge you. It\u2019s not meant for them to feel better about you. In fact, one of the tests we have is: \u201cIf, when we\u2019re giving a friend feedback that is negative, if we take any joy in that, then, something is not right with us in terms of our own litmus test.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut another dynamic is\u2014if you were to tell me John said something negative about me, behind my back, I would not believe you because I know John would tell me about the issue first. Now, John might say, \u201cThis is something I\u2019ve shared with Jim, that he\u2019s working on,\u201d and that would be fine. But if you were to say he said something negative, that I had never heard, I simply wouldn\u2019t believe you. I trust John to that level. That\u2019s the litmus test I apply to my other friends, that I consider to be high-performance friends. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> So, they wouldn\u2019t talk about you behind your back? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jim:<\/strong> That\u2019s spot-on. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And you\u2019re really nibbling around the edge of something that, I think, is key in a true friendship; and that is, that all of us have blind spots. We have weaknesses in our lives that\u2014when we look in the mirror, we don\u2019t see\u2014we\u2019re simply oblivious to. A true friend is someone who can put his arm around you, and speak the truth, and, perhaps, help you take the blinders off, and put you in touch with your blind spot and how it is impacting other people. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John:<\/strong> Well, I have two responses to that. One is to what Jim said; and that is\u2014we tell the story, in the book\u2014or I tell the story in the book\u2014of a very good friend of mine. Some people were criticizing me to him. When they came up for breath, he said, \u201cYou\u2019re not describing the man I know.\u201d That stopped the conversation. That meant the world to me because that said to me he was not going to allow people to criticize me behind my back. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSecondly, Dennis, I appreciate your comment and your question because I\u2019ve told Jim\u2014and he had a funny look on his face when I told him this\u2014I said, \u201cI\u2019m sorry we ever wrote this book because it\u2019s exposing a bad side of me\u2014and that is, a lack of courage\u2014because I have some friends who have blind spots, and I\u2019m trying to figure out how to say, \u2018That is not right.\u2019 It\u2019s exposing a lack of courage, on my part; and it\u2019s exposing the fact that I\u2019m not as good a friend as I think I am because good friends help each other grow.\u201d So, there is a fear factor, on my part. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> All of us, as men, need somebody to speak into our lives around these issues that we really are completely blind to. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jim:<\/strong> Absolutely. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Let me ask you about high-performance friendships between believers and unbelievers. I\u2019m just wondering about\u2014\u201cIs that possible?\u201d I think a lot of Christians have a hard time having close friendships with non-Christians because it almost feels like a betrayal of your faith if you\u2019re that close to somebody who doesn\u2019t share your core convictions. Just talk about how you\u2019ve experienced that and any coaching you\u2019d give there. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jim:<\/strong> You know, that\u2019s a great question because Christ certainly gave us the example. He sought out relationships with non-believers as a way to open their eyes. So, I have friends\u2014I\u2019m in a university, where it\u2019s a place full of atheists. I have friends that are atheists. You know, there is the old saying that, \u201cPreach the Gospel at all times; and sometimes, use words.\u201d You have that opportunity just to show how you handle things. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br>One of my dearest friends is an atheist. He\u2019s a very principled person, who behaves at a very high standard. As I was sharing faith issues with him, I said, \u201cOne of the dynamics, for someone like you is, you look around and you see a lot of people who claim to be Christians,\u201d\u2014and C.S. Lewis said, \u201cThe worst part of Christianity is Christians.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jim:<\/strong> So, he can look at people who claim to be people of faith; and their behavior is subpar to his. I said, \u201cYou know, if you assume that there is a God and there is a devil, have you ever considered that, in the world of spiritual warfare, that\u2019s how you are being manipulated because you feel superior?\u201d Now, what\u2019s interesting about this person is\u2014they left and went somewhere else, for some time. They had\u2014were treated very unfairly. When they came back, that changed him. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou know, so much of life is not what happens to you\u2014it\u2019s how you respond to it. He\u2019s <em>not<\/em> the same. In fact, I had a recent conversation with him. I said: \u201cYou seem different. What\u2019s happened?\u201d He said, \u201cWell, I am more hard than I used to be.\u201d He started acknowledging things that had changed about him. That\u2019s one of the great things that God does for us is\u2014He can take our failures, our pain, and our hurts and heal us from it; and then, allow us to use it to help our friends and help other people. But in this case, it breaks my heart because he is not the same caliber of person. Maybe, that\u2019s\u2014perhaps, a doorway for Christ to enter his life. But it is something that we have to deal with\u2014is to have relationships. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, if being with people that aren\u2019t Christian-based is hard for you, and it draws you into temptations that you shouldn\u2019t be in, then, that\u2019s probably not a good idea. But if that doesn\u2019t make you uncomfortable, that\u2019s part of the marching orders that we have, as disciples for Christ. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Yes, get out in the middle of it and rub shoulders with those who need Jesus Christ. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Jim:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> One of the things you guys haven\u2019t talked about and I want you to comment on is betrayal. Have you ever had a friend\u2014a close friend that you\u2019ve really trusted in and you\u2019ve shared a lot of life with\u2014and there was a severe disappointment, even to the point of a betrayal? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jim:<\/strong> You know, we get a great example from Christ on that one because He was betrayed by both Judas and Peter. He realized that that was not a salvageable relationship with Judas; but with Peter, He knew that it was salvageable. They worked on that relationship, and Peter turned it around. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, yes, it has happened. The important thing\u2014and Christ gives us such a great example because Christ always uses sort of a questioning technique like, \u201cI thought there were ten lepers\u201d\u2014we\u2019ve talked about that before\u2014or, \u201cWho among you hasn\u2019t sinned?\u201d So, just saying to someone: \u201cWhen you did that, do you know how that made me feel? Would you like to know how it made me feel?\u201d\u2014just a way to kind of open that\u2014If we come in and say, \u201cWhat you did was wrong. It was unfair,\u201d and so forth, then, you\u2019re just going to get defensiveness; and the relationship doesn\u2019t have a true chance to heal. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John:<\/strong> I was with a mutual friend. He gossiped about one of his best friends, who is, also, is one of my best friends. I stopped him and said, \u201cYou have to understand\u201d\u2014I\u2019ll just call him Jack\u2014I said, \u201cJack is one of my very best friends.\u201d He said, \u201cYes, he\u2019s a good friend of mine, too.\u201d I said: \u201cThen, why are you talking about him because he\u2019s not here to hear what you say? I would rather not hear your commentary on him.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI, actually, went to Jack and said, \u201cYou need to be careful because this man spoke about you in very harsh terms\u2014unflattering terms.\u201d What\u2019s interesting is that I\u2019ve moved away from the guilty party, and he\u2019s moved away from me. The other two guys are as tight as they ever were because the man, Jack\u2014or as I call him\u2014forgave the fellow. But from my point of view, what I saw was that this man would talk about people behind their backs. Therefore, I made the assumption that he would talk about me behind my back. So, I just withdrew from him. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSecondly, I heard that somebody had done something similar to me. So, I went to him and asked him about it. He denied that it happened, and I realized that it had happened. Once again, I withdrew because I realized that the relationship was not as strong as I thought it was. It was a relationship where he could benefit from knowing me, but he was not giving me anything. Therefore, it was not a relationship of reciprocity. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You\u2019ve had the experience of betrayal. How have you handled it? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Well, I ultimately went to the person\u2014but the friendship had been deep. It had been\u2014it had occurred over a number of decades. I realized that, really, the responsibility was on me to not just forgive in quiet but to go and to say: \u201cI just want you to know\u2014here were my expectations about our friendship and what I thought was true of us, and that didn\u2019t turn out to be a reality. As a result, you didn\u2019t have the same opinion about me and my friendship. So, the relationship has been severed. I want you to know I\u2019ve missed you, but I get it.\u201d This particular person said: \u201cI really don\u2019t need relationships. I don\u2019t have a need, at the level you are talking about, for that kind of friendship.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAt that point, I think what we have to do is we have to do what Christ did. We have to forgive and just realize who it is we are dealing with and allow them the space to be who they are and not try to enable it\u2014not try to go back and fix the relationship, and re-fire it again, and make it happen\u2014but to just admit the loss, which it was. It was a great loss in my life; and keep moving and learn from it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Jim:<\/strong> Sure. That\u2019s a great example because we can forgive, but it doesn\u2019t mean that we have to try to have the deep relationship again. <br><br>When I was at the University of Minnesota, I was going up for full professor early. There were two senior faculty, whom I considered friends. Both of them would have to support that for it to happen. Both of them supported it because I was being recruited by another university. They didn\u2019t want me to leave; and they said, \u201cWe\u2019ll support this.\u201d Well, when push came to shove, another senior person\u2014whom I didn\u2019t consider to be a friend\u2014was against it. My one friend abandoned me because he didn\u2019t want to look like he wasn\u2019t being tough enough on standards and so forth. So, he threw me under the bus. I found out about it later. I got a positive vote, but it wasn\u2019t positive enough for an early promotion. So, I was going to leave. <br><br>The other friend was upset about it. He said, \u201cDon\u2019t leave.\u201d I said: \u201cWell, I\u2019ve kind of been humiliated here. I\u2019m going to take this other position.\u201d He said, \u201cNo. Jim, just stick around one more year. I promise, if you will stay one more year\u2014if you don\u2019t get promoted next year, you pick any university you want, and I\u2019ll go with you.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe benefit of that was I picked up this really, really deeper level with that friend because that was an incredible commitment. I told him: \u201cI won\u2019t allow you to do that. That\u2019s too kind of you.\u201d He said, \u201cIn that case, let\u2019s go back.\u201d He exposed what this other guy did. They re-voted. I got the positive vote, and I got promoted. But that individual who betrayed me, I was always polite with him. I forgave him for it, interacted with him very professionally; but I no longer saw the possibility of an intimate friendship after that had happened. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> If you don\u2019t forgive, you\u2019re, ultimately, the person who ends up paying, in the long-haul. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jim:<\/strong> Absolutely. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Let me just make one comment that you made, Jim\u2014I want to clarify. You don\u2019t have to stay in a relationship\u2014a friendship\u2014if there has been a betrayal. In fact, the counsel may be to part and go your different directions; but marriage is different\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jim:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014because marriage is a covenant. The option of giving up, or the option of quitting, or the option of not forgiving is simply inconsistent with, not only how Christ lived, but His teaching in the New Testament. I just want to say that because I thought there might be a person, listening to us, who is going: \u201cMaybe, that\u2019s what\u2019s taken place in my marriage. Maybe, I can get out of my marriage.\u201d Friendships are not\u2014they can be covenant relationships\u2014but they\u2019re not necessarily a covenant-keeping relationship. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jim:<\/strong> Dennis, I\u2019m glad you brought up the issue of wives because that is a different relationship. A caveat that we make, early on in the book, is that this is a book about men and friendships; but John and I, both, want to make it real clear: \u201cOur number one friendship is with our wives.\u201d That is the most important relationship, but we need these other relationships to really have as full of a life as we can. But number one is the marriage. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You know, one of the things that has been\u2014that I\u2019ve kind of been chewing on, as we\u2019ve been talking about this, is I think guys have to have a pretty healthy understanding of how God made us, as men, in order for them to be effective friends. I think we\u2019ve got to know what our assignment is; don\u2019t you? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> We have to admit that we do need friendships. These men have been talking about this all this week. A good friendship starts out of the understanding: \u201cYou know what? I was made, by God, to be close to at least a few people on this planet, in terms of really deep, intimate relationship.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI just want to say, \u201cThanks,\u201d here at the end of the broadcast, to both of you guys for, first of all, putting your friendship to the test in writing this book together\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> [Laughter] Did you two make out okay during the writing of the book? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jim:<\/strong> There\u2019s a joke that you need to pick your co-author more carefully than you pick a wife [Laughter] because it is a challenge. But we, actually, ended up being deeper friends because we understood each other better. We had to give each other feedback because working together is different than just being friends together. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Well, I guess you are here. So, I guess we\u2019ve got to give some credit to that; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> John\u2019s looking at me. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John:<\/strong> Actually, I really don\u2019t like him. I just came because you invited me. [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Well, John, Jim, I want to thank you guys, not only writing this book, <em>Achieving High Performance Friendships<\/em>, but also, just modeling it here on the broadcast. I think that\u2019s going to minister to a lot of men and, for that matter, a lot of women who want to help their husbands do a better job of having friendships. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> If you go to our website at FamilyLifeToday.com, there is information available there about the book that John and Jim have written, <em>Achieving High Performance Friendships<\/em>. You can order it from us, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY to ask about a copy of the book. Again, it\u2019s called <em>Achieving High Performance Friendships<\/em>. The website is FamilyLifeToday.com, and the toll-free number is 1-800-FL-TODAY. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br>Let me just say, I think one way to achieve high-performance friendships is by spending time together\u2014going through material like the <em>Stepping Up<\/em><sup>\u2122<\/sup> video series, that FamilyLife has put together. It\u2019s a ten-week series. You watch about a half-hour video; and then, there is a discussion that you follow in your manual. <br><br>This week, we\u2019ve been encouraging the men, who listen to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, to give us a call and say, \u201cI\u2019d be willing to take ten of my friends through the <em>Stepping Up<\/em> material this fall,\u201d and order manuals for the guys that you\u2019re going to take through it. They can pay you back for the manuals. If you\u2019ll do that this week, we\u2019ll send you the DVDs for free. So, call 1-800-FL-TODAY if you\u2019ve got any questions or if you\u2019re ready to order\u20141-800-358-6329. That\u2019s 1-800- \u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then, the word, \u201cTODAY\u201d. By the way, the offer ends Sunday night at midnight. So, get in touch with us right now. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, in addition to asking you if you would take some men through the <em>Stepping Up<\/em> video series this week, we\u2019ve also been asking you if you\u2019d consider making a contribution to help support <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Summertime is a challenging time for ministries like ours. We often see a decline in financial support coming in for this ministry during the summer; and that has been the case again this summer. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, we\u2019ve been asking you if you\u2019d consider making a one-time contribution to support the ministry of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> to help defray the costs of producing and syndicating this daily radio program. If you\u2019ll do that today, we\u2019d like to say, \u201cThank you,\u201d by sending you a CD that features a conversation we had with Dr. Steve Farrar, talking about what a dad can do to anchor his family in Christ for the next one hundred years. Something, I think, all of us would aspire to as men. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe\u2019ll be happy to send you those CDs when you go to FamilyLifeToday.com. Click the button that says, \u201cI CARE\u201d, and make an online donation; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY. Make your donation over the phone and just ask for the CDs on anchoring your family in Christ. Again, we\u2019re happy to send those out to you, and we appreciate your generous support of the ministry of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd we hope you have a great weekend. Hope you and your family are able to worship together this weekend. And I hope you can join us back on Monday when we\u2019re going to talk to the President of Wheaton College. We\u2019re going to talk about what real love looks like in all kinds of relationships. So, I hope you can tune in for that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2013 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\t1\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>"],"_seopress_titles_title":[""],"_seopress_titles_desc":[""],"_seopress_robots_index":[""],"duration":["00:"],"show_notes":[""],"_thumbnail_id":["294104"],"filesize":["27.27M"],"filesize_raw":["28599424"],"_uag_css_file_name":["uag-css-302793.css"],"_uag_js_file_name":["uag-js-302793.js"],"_uag_page_assets":["a:9:{s:3:\"css\";s:82560:\".wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-top svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-top .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-bottom svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-bottom 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Vawter and Jim Wetherbe talk about the importance of selecting the right friends, as well as being the right kind of friend.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2013-08-09.pdf","transcript_content":"<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> For men to really connect with other men, in meaningful friendships, there has to be a high degree of trust; but how can you know if another friend is trustworthy? Here\u2019s Jim Wetherbe. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jim:<\/strong> There\u2019s another litmus test to it, as well. That is that trust is so high, that if the friend gives you feedback in a constructive manner, you don\u2019t question the motivation. You know it\u2019s coming from a good place. It\u2019s not meant to judge you. It\u2019s not meant for them to feel better about you. In fact, one of the tests we have is: \u201cIf, when we\u2019re giving a friend feedback that is negative, if we take any joy in that, then, something is not right with us.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Friday, August 9<sup>th<\/sup>. Our host is the President of FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, Dennis Rainey, and I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We\u2019re going to talk today about what constitutes real, authentic, high- performance friendships for men. Stay tuned. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. You know, we often think about Jesus and His disciples\u2014those who followed Him, those who believed in Him\u2014I don\u2019t know that we think about those guys as His friends as much as we think about them as His followers. There is a difference between a follower and a friend. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> There really is, but if you read John, Chapter 15\u2014in fact, let me just do that, real quickly here. John 15, verse 12\u2014these are words of Christ. He said: \u201cThis is My commandment that you love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this that someone lays down his life for his friends. You are My friends if you do what I command you. No longer do I call you servants for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father, I have made known to you.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI\u2019d go on and read the rest of it; but I wanted to stop there because Jesus talks about: first of all, the need to love; secondly, the need for self-sacrifice on behalf of a friend; third, on identifying the person as a friend; and then, fourth, disclosure. He said He had revealed everything the Father had told Him. Jesus was vulnerable. He had shared truth. He had shared His life with the disciples. I think that\u2019s why they felt they were His friends\u2014man to man. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to ask the guys, who join us again on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>\u2014Dr. John Vawter and Dr. Jim Wetherbe\u2014\u201cWhat do you guys think?\u201d You guys wrote a book on achieving high- performance friendships. What do you think? Jesus modeled it there; didn\u2019t he? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John:<\/strong> I\u2019ve been asked, for years, to write a book on friendship; and I asked Jim to work with me on the project. When he agreed to work with me on it, we got together and we talked about that passage. I remember, specifically, the look on Jim\u2019s face when he read what I had written about this whole issue of intimacy. He said: \u201cThis is an epiphany. I\u2019ve never thought about that before.\u201d He, actually, then, guided me in thinking about the fact that, in genuine friendship\u2014and we\u2019re talking about male friendships\u2014men have to be intimate with one another. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jim:<\/strong> That\u2019s such a compelling example, in the Garden of Gethsemane\u2014when He takes His friends and He opens it up\u2014because we\u2019ve never thought of Christ lacking macho. When we see that He is willing to reveal what He revealed and that prayer, that He shared openly with His friends, and is well-documented\u2014it really sets an example to all of us, men, that there is nothing lacking in our manhood if we share when we\u2019re hurting. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I want to go to a question you guys address, in your book; and that is, the litmus test for friendships. Where do you start to think about, \u201cWho do you select as a friend?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jim:<\/strong> Well, we talked a little bit about sort of the risks of friendships and the risks of starting friendships. We, actually, subtitled this: <em>A Book for Men<\/em>. The reason we did that is we are making it clear that men are worse at this than women; but there are a lot of lessons that women, actually, quite frankly, seemed to have learned from Christ better than us. Women show interest in others rather than trying to be interesting. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf you watch men engage, it is like, \u201cWhich of us can be the most interesting?\u201d as opposed to, \u201cWhich of us can be the most interested in another person?\u201d There is really very little risk in showing interest in someone because most people are egocentric enough they are happy to share their accomplishments. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br>The other thing that Christ did\u2014and women seem to pick up on better than men\u2014is that He would use a gesture of kindness. If you see someone new move into the neighborhood, women will bring over a dessert or something of that nature\u2014a gesture of kindness. Offering to help another man with a project that he\u2019s involved in\u2014that\u2019s not a really risky way to reach out. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br>One of the dynamics we talk about, in the book, is a phenomenon called mirroring. When we\u2019re thoughtful and kind, we get it right back. If we are rude and inconsiderate, we get it right back. That\u2019s why paying attention to Christ and the example He set for people allowed them to see, \u201cHere\u2019s the type of behavior that is acceptable.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> John, what about you? As you look at the litmus test for selecting a friend, what do you look for? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John:<\/strong> Well, something I wish we had added in the book, and we didn\u2019t\u2014Paul Tournier\u2014the Swiss Christian psychologist\u2014wrote a book called <em>Secrets<\/em>. In the book, he said: \u201cIf we have no friends, then, we are not human because God created us to be social. If we don\u2019t discriminate, because we tell everyone everything, we\u2019re not human because God built us to have discrimination in our relationships.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, I thought about that in terms of life as a series of concentric circles. In the very smallest circle, there is God and myself\u2014which means that there are a few secrets I keep from my wife Susan\u2014not very many\u2014some are sins I\u2019ve committed in the past or some thoughts I don\u2019t want her to know about\u2014but for the most part, she\u2019s close; but God and I are in the first circle. God, Susan, and I are in the second circle. Then, the third circle would be my siblings and my children. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAs the circles get bigger, intimacy disappears. Those people are acquaintances, but they are not friends. So, for me, part of that litmus test is also understanding whether or not this is someone with whom I can be intimate\u2014someone with whom I can share myself\u2014share my inner self. \u201cWill they be respectful of what I share with them?\u201d and also, \u201cWill they, in return, share?\u201d If they don\u2019t, then, I realize that this will be a large concentric circle because there simply will not be any intimacy with them. And so, there are people that I call friends, but they are not high-level friends. I enjoy being with them, but there is no intimacy because they simply refuse to share any part of their life with me. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes, I think anybody who is on Facebook<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> knows what you are talking about because we all have Facebook <em>friends<\/em>. Some of them, we\u2019ve never met in our lives! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jim:<\/strong> That, to a certain extent, kind of cheapens the word, friendship\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jim:<\/strong> \u2014because clicking a button and you are an instant friend\u2014but to the litmus test issue\u2014a friend is someone you\u2019re comfortable thinking out loud in front of and you\u2019re not fearful. You feel safe sharing things that you might be fearful about, or concerned about, or worried about. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThere\u2019s another litmus test to it, as well. That is, the trust is so high that, if the friend gives you feedback in a constructive manner, you don\u2019t question the motivation. You know it\u2019s coming from a good place. It\u2019s not meant to judge you. It\u2019s not meant for them to feel better about you. In fact, one of the tests we have is: \u201cIf, when we\u2019re giving a friend feedback that is negative, if we take any joy in that, then, something is not right with us in terms of our own litmus test.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut another dynamic is\u2014if you were to tell me John said something negative about me, behind my back, I would not believe you because I know John would tell me about the issue first. Now, John might say, \u201cThis is something I\u2019ve shared with Jim, that he\u2019s working on,\u201d and that would be fine. But if you were to say he said something negative, that I had never heard, I simply wouldn\u2019t believe you. I trust John to that level. That\u2019s the litmus test I apply to my other friends, that I consider to be high-performance friends. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> So, they wouldn\u2019t talk about you behind your back? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jim:<\/strong> That\u2019s spot-on. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And you\u2019re really nibbling around the edge of something that, I think, is key in a true friendship; and that is, that all of us have blind spots. We have weaknesses in our lives that\u2014when we look in the mirror, we don\u2019t see\u2014we\u2019re simply oblivious to. A true friend is someone who can put his arm around you, and speak the truth, and, perhaps, help you take the blinders off, and put you in touch with your blind spot and how it is impacting other people. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John:<\/strong> Well, I have two responses to that. One is to what Jim said; and that is\u2014we tell the story, in the book\u2014or I tell the story in the book\u2014of a very good friend of mine. Some people were criticizing me to him. When they came up for breath, he said, \u201cYou\u2019re not describing the man I know.\u201d That stopped the conversation. That meant the world to me because that said to me he was not going to allow people to criticize me behind my back. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSecondly, Dennis, I appreciate your comment and your question because I\u2019ve told Jim\u2014and he had a funny look on his face when I told him this\u2014I said, \u201cI\u2019m sorry we ever wrote this book because it\u2019s exposing a bad side of me\u2014and that is, a lack of courage\u2014because I have some friends who have blind spots, and I\u2019m trying to figure out how to say, \u2018That is not right.\u2019 It\u2019s exposing a lack of courage, on my part; and it\u2019s exposing the fact that I\u2019m not as good a friend as I think I am because good friends help each other grow.\u201d So, there is a fear factor, on my part. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> All of us, as men, need somebody to speak into our lives around these issues that we really are completely blind to. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jim:<\/strong> Absolutely. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Let me ask you about high-performance friendships between believers and unbelievers. I\u2019m just wondering about\u2014\u201cIs that possible?\u201d I think a lot of Christians have a hard time having close friendships with non-Christians because it almost feels like a betrayal of your faith if you\u2019re that close to somebody who doesn\u2019t share your core convictions. Just talk about how you\u2019ve experienced that and any coaching you\u2019d give there. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jim:<\/strong> You know, that\u2019s a great question because Christ certainly gave us the example. He sought out relationships with non-believers as a way to open their eyes. So, I have friends\u2014I\u2019m in a university, where it\u2019s a place full of atheists. I have friends that are atheists. You know, there is the old saying that, \u201cPreach the Gospel at all times; and sometimes, use words.\u201d You have that opportunity just to show how you handle things. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br>One of my dearest friends is an atheist. He\u2019s a very principled person, who behaves at a very high standard. As I was sharing faith issues with him, I said, \u201cOne of the dynamics, for someone like you is, you look around and you see a lot of people who claim to be Christians,\u201d\u2014and C.S. Lewis said, \u201cThe worst part of Christianity is Christians.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jim:<\/strong> So, he can look at people who claim to be people of faith; and their behavior is subpar to his. I said, \u201cYou know, if you assume that there is a God and there is a devil, have you ever considered that, in the world of spiritual warfare, that\u2019s how you are being manipulated because you feel superior?\u201d Now, what\u2019s interesting about this person is\u2014they left and went somewhere else, for some time. They had\u2014were treated very unfairly. When they came back, that changed him. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou know, so much of life is not what happens to you\u2014it\u2019s how you respond to it. He\u2019s <em>not<\/em> the same. In fact, I had a recent conversation with him. I said: \u201cYou seem different. What\u2019s happened?\u201d He said, \u201cWell, I am more hard than I used to be.\u201d He started acknowledging things that had changed about him. That\u2019s one of the great things that God does for us is\u2014He can take our failures, our pain, and our hurts and heal us from it; and then, allow us to use it to help our friends and help other people. But in this case, it breaks my heart because he is not the same caliber of person. Maybe, that\u2019s\u2014perhaps, a doorway for Christ to enter his life. But it is something that we have to deal with\u2014is to have relationships. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, if being with people that aren\u2019t Christian-based is hard for you, and it draws you into temptations that you shouldn\u2019t be in, then, that\u2019s probably not a good idea. But if that doesn\u2019t make you uncomfortable, that\u2019s part of the marching orders that we have, as disciples for Christ. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Yes, get out in the middle of it and rub shoulders with those who need Jesus Christ. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Jim:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> One of the things you guys haven\u2019t talked about and I want you to comment on is betrayal. Have you ever had a friend\u2014a close friend that you\u2019ve really trusted in and you\u2019ve shared a lot of life with\u2014and there was a severe disappointment, even to the point of a betrayal? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jim:<\/strong> You know, we get a great example from Christ on that one because He was betrayed by both Judas and Peter. He realized that that was not a salvageable relationship with Judas; but with Peter, He knew that it was salvageable. They worked on that relationship, and Peter turned it around. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, yes, it has happened. The important thing\u2014and Christ gives us such a great example because Christ always uses sort of a questioning technique like, \u201cI thought there were ten lepers\u201d\u2014we\u2019ve talked about that before\u2014or, \u201cWho among you hasn\u2019t sinned?\u201d So, just saying to someone: \u201cWhen you did that, do you know how that made me feel? Would you like to know how it made me feel?\u201d\u2014just a way to kind of open that\u2014If we come in and say, \u201cWhat you did was wrong. It was unfair,\u201d and so forth, then, you\u2019re just going to get defensiveness; and the relationship doesn\u2019t have a true chance to heal. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John:<\/strong> I was with a mutual friend. He gossiped about one of his best friends, who is, also, is one of my best friends. I stopped him and said, \u201cYou have to understand\u201d\u2014I\u2019ll just call him Jack\u2014I said, \u201cJack is one of my very best friends.\u201d He said, \u201cYes, he\u2019s a good friend of mine, too.\u201d I said: \u201cThen, why are you talking about him because he\u2019s not here to hear what you say? I would rather not hear your commentary on him.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI, actually, went to Jack and said, \u201cYou need to be careful because this man spoke about you in very harsh terms\u2014unflattering terms.\u201d What\u2019s interesting is that I\u2019ve moved away from the guilty party, and he\u2019s moved away from me. The other two guys are as tight as they ever were because the man, Jack\u2014or as I call him\u2014forgave the fellow. But from my point of view, what I saw was that this man would talk about people behind their backs. Therefore, I made the assumption that he would talk about me behind my back. So, I just withdrew from him. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSecondly, I heard that somebody had done something similar to me. So, I went to him and asked him about it. He denied that it happened, and I realized that it had happened. Once again, I withdrew because I realized that the relationship was not as strong as I thought it was. It was a relationship where he could benefit from knowing me, but he was not giving me anything. Therefore, it was not a relationship of reciprocity. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You\u2019ve had the experience of betrayal. How have you handled it? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Well, I ultimately went to the person\u2014but the friendship had been deep. It had been\u2014it had occurred over a number of decades. I realized that, really, the responsibility was on me to not just forgive in quiet but to go and to say: \u201cI just want you to know\u2014here were my expectations about our friendship and what I thought was true of us, and that didn\u2019t turn out to be a reality. As a result, you didn\u2019t have the same opinion about me and my friendship. So, the relationship has been severed. I want you to know I\u2019ve missed you, but I get it.\u201d This particular person said: \u201cI really don\u2019t need relationships. I don\u2019t have a need, at the level you are talking about, for that kind of friendship.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAt that point, I think what we have to do is we have to do what Christ did. We have to forgive and just realize who it is we are dealing with and allow them the space to be who they are and not try to enable it\u2014not try to go back and fix the relationship, and re-fire it again, and make it happen\u2014but to just admit the loss, which it was. It was a great loss in my life; and keep moving and learn from it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Jim:<\/strong> Sure. That\u2019s a great example because we can forgive, but it doesn\u2019t mean that we have to try to have the deep relationship again. <br><br>When I was at the University of Minnesota, I was going up for full professor early. There were two senior faculty, whom I considered friends. Both of them would have to support that for it to happen. Both of them supported it because I was being recruited by another university. They didn\u2019t want me to leave; and they said, \u201cWe\u2019ll support this.\u201d Well, when push came to shove, another senior person\u2014whom I didn\u2019t consider to be a friend\u2014was against it. My one friend abandoned me because he didn\u2019t want to look like he wasn\u2019t being tough enough on standards and so forth. So, he threw me under the bus. I found out about it later. I got a positive vote, but it wasn\u2019t positive enough for an early promotion. So, I was going to leave. <br><br>The other friend was upset about it. He said, \u201cDon\u2019t leave.\u201d I said: \u201cWell, I\u2019ve kind of been humiliated here. I\u2019m going to take this other position.\u201d He said, \u201cNo. Jim, just stick around one more year. I promise, if you will stay one more year\u2014if you don\u2019t get promoted next year, you pick any university you want, and I\u2019ll go with you.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe benefit of that was I picked up this really, really deeper level with that friend because that was an incredible commitment. I told him: \u201cI won\u2019t allow you to do that. That\u2019s too kind of you.\u201d He said, \u201cIn that case, let\u2019s go back.\u201d He exposed what this other guy did. They re-voted. I got the positive vote, and I got promoted. But that individual who betrayed me, I was always polite with him. I forgave him for it, interacted with him very professionally; but I no longer saw the possibility of an intimate friendship after that had happened. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> If you don\u2019t forgive, you\u2019re, ultimately, the person who ends up paying, in the long-haul. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jim:<\/strong> Absolutely. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Let me just make one comment that you made, Jim\u2014I want to clarify. You don\u2019t have to stay in a relationship\u2014a friendship\u2014if there has been a betrayal. In fact, the counsel may be to part and go your different directions; but marriage is different\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jim:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014because marriage is a covenant. The option of giving up, or the option of quitting, or the option of not forgiving is simply inconsistent with, not only how Christ lived, but His teaching in the New Testament. I just want to say that because I thought there might be a person, listening to us, who is going: \u201cMaybe, that\u2019s what\u2019s taken place in my marriage. Maybe, I can get out of my marriage.\u201d Friendships are not\u2014they can be covenant relationships\u2014but they\u2019re not necessarily a covenant-keeping relationship. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jim:<\/strong> Dennis, I\u2019m glad you brought up the issue of wives because that is a different relationship. A caveat that we make, early on in the book, is that this is a book about men and friendships; but John and I, both, want to make it real clear: \u201cOur number one friendship is with our wives.\u201d That is the most important relationship, but we need these other relationships to really have as full of a life as we can. But number one is the marriage. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You know, one of the things that has been\u2014that I\u2019ve kind of been chewing on, as we\u2019ve been talking about this, is I think guys have to have a pretty healthy understanding of how God made us, as men, in order for them to be effective friends. I think we\u2019ve got to know what our assignment is; don\u2019t you? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> We have to admit that we do need friendships. These men have been talking about this all this week. A good friendship starts out of the understanding: \u201cYou know what? I was made, by God, to be close to at least a few people on this planet, in terms of really deep, intimate relationship.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI just want to say, \u201cThanks,\u201d here at the end of the broadcast, to both of you guys for, first of all, putting your friendship to the test in writing this book together\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> [Laughter] Did you two make out okay during the writing of the book? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jim:<\/strong> There\u2019s a joke that you need to pick your co-author more carefully than you pick a wife [Laughter] because it is a challenge. But we, actually, ended up being deeper friends because we understood each other better. We had to give each other feedback because working together is different than just being friends together. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Well, I guess you are here. So, I guess we\u2019ve got to give some credit to that; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> John\u2019s looking at me. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>John:<\/strong> Actually, I really don\u2019t like him. I just came because you invited me. [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Well, John, Jim, I want to thank you guys, not only writing this book, <em>Achieving High Performance Friendships<\/em>, but also, just modeling it here on the broadcast. I think that\u2019s going to minister to a lot of men and, for that matter, a lot of women who want to help their husbands do a better job of having friendships. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> If you go to our website at FamilyLifeToday.com, there is information available there about the book that John and Jim have written, <em>Achieving High Performance Friendships<\/em>. You can order it from us, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY to ask about a copy of the book. Again, it\u2019s called <em>Achieving High Performance Friendships<\/em>. The website is FamilyLifeToday.com, and the toll-free number is 1-800-FL-TODAY. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br>Let me just say, I think one way to achieve high-performance friendships is by spending time together\u2014going through material like the <em>Stepping Up<\/em><sup>\u2122<\/sup> video series, that FamilyLife has put together. It\u2019s a ten-week series. You watch about a half-hour video; and then, there is a discussion that you follow in your manual. <br><br>This week, we\u2019ve been encouraging the men, who listen to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, to give us a call and say, \u201cI\u2019d be willing to take ten of my friends through the <em>Stepping Up<\/em> material this fall,\u201d and order manuals for the guys that you\u2019re going to take through it. They can pay you back for the manuals. If you\u2019ll do that this week, we\u2019ll send you the DVDs for free. So, call 1-800-FL-TODAY if you\u2019ve got any questions or if you\u2019re ready to order\u20141-800-358-6329. That\u2019s 1-800- \u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then, the word, \u201cTODAY\u201d. By the way, the offer ends Sunday night at midnight. So, get in touch with us right now. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, in addition to asking you if you would take some men through the <em>Stepping Up<\/em> video series this week, we\u2019ve also been asking you if you\u2019d consider making a contribution to help support <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Summertime is a challenging time for ministries like ours. We often see a decline in financial support coming in for this ministry during the summer; and that has been the case again this summer. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, we\u2019ve been asking you if you\u2019d consider making a one-time contribution to support the ministry of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> to help defray the costs of producing and syndicating this daily radio program. If you\u2019ll do that today, we\u2019d like to say, \u201cThank you,\u201d by sending you a CD that features a conversation we had with Dr. Steve Farrar, talking about what a dad can do to anchor his family in Christ for the next one hundred years. Something, I think, all of us would aspire to as men. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe\u2019ll be happy to send you those CDs when you go to FamilyLifeToday.com. Click the button that says, \u201cI CARE\u201d, and make an online donation; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY. Make your donation over the phone and just ask for the CDs on anchoring your family in Christ. Again, we\u2019re happy to send those out to you, and we appreciate your generous support of the ministry of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd we hope you have a great weekend. Hope you and your family are able to worship together this weekend. And I hope you can join us back on Monday when we\u2019re going to talk to the President of Wheaton College. We\u2019re going to talk about what real love looks like in all kinds of relationships. So, I hope you can tune in for that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2013 FamilyLife. 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