{"id":302777,"date":"2013-07-15T11:00:00","date_gmt":"2013-07-15T15:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/the-power-of-a-soft-warrior\/"},"modified":"2013-07-15T11:00:00","modified_gmt":"2013-07-15T15:00:00","slug":"the-power-of-a-soft-warrior","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/the-power-of-a-soft-warrior\/","title":{"rendered":"The Power of a Soft Warrior"},"content":{"rendered":"","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Kimberly Wagner explains her marriage was hopeless, and her husband, LeRoy, admitted that he no longer loved her.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2013-07-15.mp3","podmotor_file_id":"","podmotor_episode_id":"","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:","filesize":"25.51M","filesize_raw":"26748839","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2831],"tags":[2990,5295,5096,4251],"podcast_series":[7960],"cwp_profile":[3400],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-302777","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-wives","tag-anger","tag-controlling","tag-hope","tag-pride","podcast_series-fierce-women","cwp_profile-kimberly-wagner","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/302777\/the-power-of-a-soft-warrior","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/302777\/the-power-of-a-soft-warrior","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"Wh6FTnfRXK\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/the-power-of-a-soft-warrior\/\">The Power of a Soft Warrior<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/the-power-of-a-soft-warrior\/embed\/#?secret=Wh6FTnfRXK\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;The Power of a Soft Warrior&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"Wh6FTnfRXK\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2013-07-15.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2013-07-15.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> The Bible says that life and death are found in the power of the tongue. Kim Wagner knows firsthand how her tongue was able to bring death to her marriage. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> You know, it\u2019s amazing the depths that we, as women or individuals, can go to\u2014to punish another person. And with me, my self-centered, fierceness showed up like the third night of our honeymoon. My route was to speak to him in a way that was so demeaning and to make him feel worthless [Emotion in voice]. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Monday, July 15<sup>th<\/sup>. Our host is the President of FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, Dennis Rainey, and I\u2019m Bob Lepine. Kim Wagner joins us today to share with us how God got her attention\u2014how she began to realize the destruction she was bringing into her own marriage. Stay tuned. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. I\u2019m just curious\u2014you\u2019ve called your wife, Barbara, a number\u2014you\u2019ve used a lot of adjectives to describe her; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I have. That\u2019s correct. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Fierce\u2014you ever called her a fierce woman? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> No. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And why is that? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Never really thought about it! [Laughter] I might now. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Do you think she\u2019s a fierce woman? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Yes, I do. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> So, you\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> She\u2019s tenacious. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You would say fierce is a good thing? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Oh, yes; and it can be a bad thing\u2014depends on who\u2019s on the throne. [Laughter] You know, the little picture with the circle in it\u2014the ego, our self, on the thrown or Christ on the throne of the heart. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I know that picture, yes. And you\u2019re saying\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I\u2019m saying that all is well with the fierce woman who has Jesus in control of her heart. And our guest on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is nodding her head. Kim Wagner joins us on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Kim, welcome to the broadcast. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Thank you, Dennis. Glad to be here. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And you might imagine, she has written a book called <em>The Power of a Soft Warrior<\/em>. It is titled <em>Fierce Women<\/em>. You believe women can be fierce and be good; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> I do. I actually think God created women to be strong\u2014with a fierceness to fulfill our role and calling by Him and to glorify Him\u2014but that fierceness can go bad pretty quickly. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Dennis:<\/strong> You married your husband, LeRoy, back in 1981. You have two adult children. You guys are about to be the proud grandparents of three grandchildren; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Correct. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And this whole subject of fierceness came about out of your own relationship with him; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Well, I was a fierce woman before I met LeRoy. [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> That\u2019s a good answer. That\u2019s a good answer. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> I definitely was. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Take us back to when you met him. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> In fact, he would say that fierceness is what drew him to me, really\u2014that my strength\u2014he wouldn\u2019t have described it back then as fierceness, but\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> So, you\u2019re talking about a determination\u2014steadfastness\u2014really, a fuel to be intentional and to be purposeful for what Christ has called you to. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Exactly. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> But that fierceness\u2014as you and LeRoy met and as you were first married\u2014began to seep through the cracks in some ungodly ways. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Yes, it morphed into a real ugliness. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Take us into that. How did you and LeRoy meet? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Well, we were both college students. He noticed me in Greek class because there were only two girls there and like thirty-two preacher boys. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> This was a Christian college? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Okay. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Yes. And I wasn\u2019t there at all looking for a preacher-boy husband. That is for sure. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Preacher-boy husband? Were you a flirt? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> No! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> So, you were fierce but not a flirt. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Right. So, he had noticed me. I hadn\u2019t really noticed him because there were a lot of preacher boys in there. He followed me to the cafeteria, one day, after class. So, he\u2019s standing in line, behind me, in the cafeteria. He has never spoken to me before. I don\u2019t even know his name. I barely know he is in my class, and his opening introductory line to me is\u2014if this is a pick-up line, it\u2019s pathetic\u2014but he said, \u201cDo you mind if I ask you a personal question?\u201d I\u2019m thinking: \u201cA personal question? I don\u2019t even know you.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u201cWhat is he going to ask?\u201d Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> \u201cWhat is he\u2026\u201d\u2014yes. And I\u2019m pretty upfront and transparent. So, I just said, \u201cNo, I don\u2019t guess so.\u201d He said, \u201cWhy are you in Greek class?\u201d It just went all over me. I just felt like: \u201cWhat a chauvinistic question? Why can\u2019t I be in Greek class?\u201d You know? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, I just looked at him\u2014and even though I come from a church background, which is complimentary, I\u2019ll say\u2014we don\u2019t have women pastors in my church background\u2014but I looked at him; and I said, \u201cBecause I want to study and learn the original language for myself so that I can better prepare myself to pastor my flock.\u201d [Ooh!] I turned around, and I went through the lunch line like that. You should have seen his face. His mouth just dropped open. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd I went through the lunch line thinking, \u201cOkay, I\u2019ve just lied.\u201d [Laughter] I\u2019m like so convicted by the Holy Spirit. I\u2019m thinking, \u201cWhat a jerk to ask me that question\u2014like I can\u2019t be in Greek class\u2014like I can\u2019t take Greek because I\u2019m a woman!\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, as I\u2019m getting the last of my condiments on my tray, I turned back around to him. I just looked at him; and I say: \u201cNo, I have to tell you the truth. The real reason I\u2019m taking Greek is because I grew up in a church with a moderate pastor, who was always answering my questions by saying: \u2018Well, that\u2019s not really what the Bible means. If you knew the original language, you could better understand.\u2019 I felt like I couldn\u2019t get my questions answered. I just wanted to study the Word for myself to grow in my relationship with Christ.\u201d So, then, he perked up with a big smile. [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> How long before he asked you out? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Oh, it was not long! [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> As in between the green beans and dessert? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> No, no, no, no. It was within probably a couple of weeks. Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> So, he found himself attracted to the young woman who really wanted to dig deep into God\u2019s Word. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> He did. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> That was one of the things that was attractive about you, to LeRoy. <br>\u00a0\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> What was it about him\u2014because, originally, he said: \u201cCan I ask you a personal question? Why are you in Greek?\u201d You weren\u2019t attracted to him at all. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Right; right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> When did that start to change? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> When I sat under my first message\u2014hearing him preach. That was really on our first actual\u2014what I would call date. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Now wait! On a date?\u2014He said, \u201cI want you to come hear me preach.\u201d [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> If his pick-up line\u2014if his pick-up line\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014is, \u201cCan I ask you a personal question?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014is, \u201c\u2026personal question?\u201d Then, it\u2019s only bettered by, \u201cCome with me on a date\u201d\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cwhile I preach.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cwhile I preach from the original languages.\u201d [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> You all are so cracking me up! Okay. We had actually hung out, the night before, at McDonald\u2019s\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Okay. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> \u2014with a couple of friends. He had just offered, \u201cWould you like to come tomorrow with me to church, where I pastor?\u201d You know, it was a small church. He was a student pastor. When I was a teenager, I lived on the west coast for a while and had a godly pastor. It had been years since I\u2019d really heard someone preaching from the Word of God with a true theological grounding and understanding but also with pathos. <br><br>As I sat in that service that Sunday, I was weeping because I\u2019d asked God, for so many years, to let me sit under that type of preaching again. It had been so long. So, I\u2019m weeping. LeRoy, from the pulpit\u2014he\u2019s thinking: \u201cOh no, this poor girl. She is either in bad shape\u2014she is just a sinful case or she\u2019s not saved, or I don\u2019t know what kind of basket-case she is.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> He\u2019s wondering what kind of conviction has come upon you, as he\u2019s preaching. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Right; right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob<\/strong>: And what was really going on\u2014is that they were tears of joy\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014that you were hearing God\u2019s Word preached faithfully\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014and preached with passion. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And you said, \u201cWhen can we go out again?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> No! [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Or did he take you on a crusade\u2014a series of messages that he did\u2014and then ask you to marry him? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> It wasn\u2019t long after that, actually, that he asked me to marry him. But it\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> It wasn\u2019t long\u2014like how long? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> You all don\u2019t\u2014I don\u2019t want to say this! I don\u2019t want children to\u2014are you editing all of this? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> No, we\u2019re not editing\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> No, we\u2019re not. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014this part. This part stays in. [Laughter] How long from the time\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> That\u2019s right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014you wept in church until he asked you to marry him? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Thirteen days. I know. I hope <em>no children<\/em> are listening to this and will follow in our footsteps. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> This was a personal crusade. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Yes! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Thirteen days. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> I know that is crazy now that I look\u2014but I didn\u2019t say, \u201cYes,\u201d right away. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Bob:<\/strong> How long did it take you to say, \u201cYes\u201d? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Awhile. I had\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Like how long? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> \u2014to pray. He had to meet my parents. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Like a month maybe? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Oh, wow!\u2014a month. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Then, how long before you were married? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> None of my radio interviews have asked me these questions. You guys are grueling. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I\u2019m sorry. We are. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Dennis:<\/strong> So, how long before you got married, then? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> A year. My dad did require we wait a year. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Thirteen days to the proposal, a month before you said, \u201cYes,\u201d and then, a little time to get to know one another. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Kim:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And that was your dad\u2019s wisdom\u2014to say, \u201cYou ought to just take it slow, kids;\u201d right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Yes, but my dad loved LeRoy\u2014that helped. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> So, you were married a year later. I\u2019m wondering how long, into your marriage, before LeRoy found out he was married to a spitfire.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And I haven\u2019t heard that term in a long time. As I say that term and that word\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You didn\u2019t pick that word. You used the word, \u201cspitfire\u201d, in your book, to describe you; don\u2019t you? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Yes. Yes, she does. And my mom was a spitfire. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Okay. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> So, I know what a fierce woman looks like\u2014in terms of who I\u2019m married to. I, also, was raised by a spitfire. How long did it take LeRoy to figure out he was married to one? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Well, on our honeymoon\u2014but he knew before then\u2014but on our honeymoon. And by spitfire\u2014you know, like we said\u2014\u201cThat can be a good thing or a bad thing.\u201d With me, my self-centered fierceness showed up like the third night of our honeymoon. When\u2014after he\u2019s\u2014we went to Colorado on our honeymoon\u2014long drive. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAfter he\u2019s driven many miles, and I\u2019ve napped in the car, and it\u2019s time to bed down for the night, he falls asleep on me, before the prayer is even over. I\u2019m like: \u201cWhat is up with this?! This is our honeymoon! This is cuddle time. This is quality time together.\u201d And it just hurt my feelings so much. So, I reacted fiercely. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> How did you react? What happened? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Well, first the crying, you know? And then\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Well, he\u2019s asleep. Did he even know you were crying? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Well, you have to cry loud enough that it wakes them up, you know? [Laughter] Then, when I tell him what\u2019s wrong, it\u2019s just like he\u2019s snoring and goes back to bed. So, then, the next day, he knew I was not a happy camper on our honeymoon. <br>\u00a0\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And did you make it clear to him that you were not a happy camper? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Oh, yes! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> How would you do that? I mean, give me some ideas of what a chilly morning, in Colorado with Kim, would have been like, on your honeymoon. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> This is the audience right here. [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> I know! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> You\u2019re not getting any help\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> My prayer warriors\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Dennis:<\/strong> They are praying for you. Just answer the question! [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> I could be so cruel. It is\u2014I hate to look back on it. I really do because\u2014it\u2019s amazing the depths that we, as women or individuals, can go to\u2014to punish another person just to\u2014whether it\u2019s the silent treatment\u2014but that wasn\u2019t usually my route. My route was to speak to him in a way that was so demeaning and to make him feel\u2014to make him feel worthless [Emotion in voice]. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> So, I know you probably don\u2019t remember exactly what you would have said the next morning after he\u2019d fallen asleep; but you could probably imagine the kinds of things you said over the years. What might you have said? What\u2019s the kind of thing you would have said to LeRoy, after a night when you had been disappointed because he fell asleep? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> You know, Bob, the kind of things I would say might not affect another man in the same way; but I think it\u2019s not necessarily the words we say, but it can be the tone\u2014the emphasis\u2014communicating to them that: \u201cYou\u2019re not measuring up in some way. You\u2019re not measuring up to my expectations. You\u2019re not fulfilling the role that I think you should fulfill in my life. You are not being, to me, what I want you to be,\u201d or even, really, what that man wants to be for the woman. That is emasculating to a man. That is so destructive to a man. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat has been so disconcerting to me, as we\u2019ve shared our story through the years\u2014there\u2019s a YouTube video that <em>Revive Our Hearts<\/em><em><sup>\u00ae<\/sup><\/em> produced, several years ago, where LeRoy and I both are sharing our marriage situation and the dark years. It wasn\u2019t that he was caught up in pornography, or wasn\u2019t financial problems, or wasn\u2019t immorality\u2014it was simply two sinners trying to meld their lives together, but reacting to one another in immature or selfish ways. Over and over again, people have told us: \u201cYou\u2019re telling our story. You have described us exactly.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I think it\u2019s the way most of us start our marriage relationship. I mean, we don\u2019t start as two perfect people who have come to grips with how selfish we are. In fact, that\u2019s one of the big lessons, early-on. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI remember early, in our marriage, going, \u201cI didn\u2019t realize how much I thought about myself and not about somebody else.\u201d What I want to know is\u2014how did LeRoy respond when you spoke in a demeaning tone and chipped away at who he was as a man. Did he get angry? Did he withdraw? Did he lash back? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> He did what I think a lot of men do. He tried, at first, to counter my outbursts or my negativity; but eventually, he just shut down, and pulled away, and went into his silent cave. I tell people it was like we were living as roommates, together, for several years. There was this darkness that we both lived in. We were functioning. We would minister to other people. We both loved the Lord, loved His Word; but when we came together, there were no words. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Because you were in isolation in your marriage because of the harshness? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Because our marriage was not functioning in a way that we knew pleased God. How could we, with integrity, counsel other couples? How could he preach, even? He struggled with preaching the power of the Gospel when he wasn\u2019t seeing it lived out in his home. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Ultimately, he came to you, five years into your marriage, and made a pronouncement. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Yes. He let me know that, \u201cI don\u2019t think I love you anymore.\u201d I had, for so long, said, \u201cWell, if you loved me\u2014da, da, da\u2014fill in the blank\u2026.\u201d It suddenly dawned on him: \u201cYou know what? I don\u2019t think I love you anymore.\u201d I don\u2019t blame him, as far as that emotional love\u2014and of course, that was a young man, speaking out of emotion\u2014but I wasn\u2019t loveable. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou know, I had my hurts and resentment. I would lash out at him. He had this simmering, deep-seated anger, I guess, and resentment\u2014but even more than that\u2014eventually, in our marriage, he admitted to being fearful of me\u2014which I would have never dreamed. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Did you think about divorce, at that point? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> No! Divorce was never an option. I mean, we were committed to Christ. We even married on the basis of\u2014I had always said, \u201cI would never marry someone until I believed God could be brought greater glory through our marriage\u2014through being married than being single.\u201d So, that was never an option. We were living to display the truth of the Word of God to people, but we weren\u2019t doing it in our marriage. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> So, you\u2019re not going to get a divorce, at this point; but you don\u2019t have any\u2014you don\u2019t have any hope for how you\u2019re going to get any better; do you? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> No! We were so hopeless. That\u2019s what I hope women, listening today\u2014who are in a very dark place\u2014I kept thinking: \u201cThere\u2019s got to be an answer. There\u2019s got to be a key to this. If God put us together\u2014and I did believe God put us together\u2014why is it so dark? Why can\u2019t I reach his heart?\u201d I hope women, listening, will have hope in knowing that God sees, He cares, and He desires to step into your marriage and work. I am so grateful that He did step into our lives to work. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI kept crying out in prayer for God to work and change him. [Laughter] He was praying the same thing, without me knowing it\u2014for God to change me. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> It seems, to me, that LeRoy fired a warning shot. He was trying to get your attention. He was trying to send you a signal that something profoundly dear to him was dying or was dead, at that point. Did you get the message? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Not at that point; I didn\u2019t. I did not recognize, at all, my role in being the problem in the relationship. Now, it\u2019s never just one person who is the problem; but God needed to bring me to the point where my eyes were open to, \u201cIt is not all LeRoy,\u201d and to take responsibility for my role in it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I don\u2019t know where this came from in our marriage; but one of the characteristics, early-on in our marriage, was cultivating and protecting a teachable spirit and taking responsibility for our own stuff. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> It\u2019s so easy to blame the other person. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I don\u2019t know where it came from; but I am convinced that some of the toughness of those early years in our marriage\u2014which were, at times, tough\u2014were blunted because both Barbara and I, occasionally, would look at the log in our own eyes, rather than thinking that the log was in our spouse\u2019s eye. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I think teachability is something you have to protect and keep alive in your marriage relationship. As a couple\u2014speaking of the word, fierce\u2014fiercely keep your covenant and fiercely own your own stuff and your own responsibility because, at the end of the day, that\u2019s all you\u2019re responsible for anyway. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Whenever I get a chance to speak at one of our <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em><sup>\u00ae <\/sup>marriage getaways, I start, on Friday night, by saying: \u201cIf you brought your spouse here, hoping we can fix your spouse, you\u2019re going to be disappointed because the truth is\u2014 we\u2019re not even going to talk to your spouse this weekend. We came to talk to you.\u201d Obviously, I\u2019m saying it to both of them.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> So, they recognize it\u2019s going to go both ways; but the point is\u2014the only person we can really have responsibility for is ourselves. The only person we can really change, with God\u2019s help, is us. That\u2019s where we need to be focused: Matthew, Chapter 7, Jesus said: \u201cIt\u2019s easy to see the speck in your brother\u2019s eye, but you missed the log in your own eye. You have to first take the log out of your eye before you can help your brother with his speck.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think that\u2019s true for husbands and wives; but Kim, I think you\u2019ve done a great job of helping wives, in particular, see where they may be fierce in an ungodly way and to help them learn how they can be fierce women in a way that brings honor and glory to God. We\u2019ve got copies of Kim\u2019s book, <em>Fierce Women<\/em>, in our <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Resource Center. You can go, online, for more information about how to get a copy of the book. The website is FamilyLifeToday.com\u2014once again, FamilyLifeToday.com\u2014or call 1-800-FL-TODAY. Say, \u201cI\u2019m interested in the book, <em>Fierce Women<\/em>, by Kim Wagner\u201d\u20141-800-358-6329. That\u2019s 1-800- \u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then, the word, \u201cTODAY\u201d. Get in touch with us, and we\u2019ll see what we can do about getting a copy of Kim\u2019s book to you. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou know, as I was hearing Kim share her story today, I was thinking about some of the conversations that took place between Kim and Krickitt Carpenter, a couple that we interviewed, a while back, who\u2014they actually had a Hollywood movie made of their story\u2014a movie called <em>The Vow<\/em>. When Krickitt Carpenter came out from a coma, she had no memory of her husband. In fact, was caustic toward him and not sure she liked him. Her personality had changed because of the head trauma that she had experienced. Yet, even in the midst of that, God did an amazing reconciling, redeeming work. They continue today, happily married, as husband and wife. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br>We are making the CD of their story available this week to those of you who are able to help support <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> with a donation. You just need to know we appreciate you when you call or go online and help support the ministry. Your donations help cover the costs of producing and syndicating this daily radio program. We\u2019re grateful for your financial support. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com today. Click the button that says, \u201cI CARE\u201d. Make an online donation, or call 1-800-FL-TODAY and make your donation over the phone. Ask for the CD with the Carpenters when you get in touch with us. We\u2019re happy to send it out to you; and we just want to say: \u201cThank you very much. Thanks for helping to support the ministry of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. We appreciate you.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd we hope you can join us back again tomorrow. Kim Wagner is going to be here again. We\u2019re going to talk about what a wife should do\u2014how she should speak and act toward her husband when he\u2019s not a godly, responsible man. We\u2019ll talk about that tomorrow. Hope you can join us for that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2013 FamilyLife. 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Wagner explains her marriage was hopeless, and her husband, LeRoy, admitted that he no longer loved her.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2013-07-15.pdf","transcript_content":"<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> The Bible says that life and death are found in the power of the tongue. Kim Wagner knows firsthand how her tongue was able to bring death to her marriage. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> You know, it\u2019s amazing the depths that we, as women or individuals, can go to\u2014to punish another person. And with me, my self-centered, fierceness showed up like the third night of our honeymoon. My route was to speak to him in a way that was so demeaning and to make him feel worthless [Emotion in voice]. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Monday, July 15<sup>th<\/sup>. Our host is the President of FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, Dennis Rainey, and I\u2019m Bob Lepine. Kim Wagner joins us today to share with us how God got her attention\u2014how she began to realize the destruction she was bringing into her own marriage. Stay tuned. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. I\u2019m just curious\u2014you\u2019ve called your wife, Barbara, a number\u2014you\u2019ve used a lot of adjectives to describe her; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I have. That\u2019s correct. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Fierce\u2014you ever called her a fierce woman? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> No. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And why is that? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Never really thought about it! [Laughter] I might now. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Do you think she\u2019s a fierce woman? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Yes, I do. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> So, you\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> She\u2019s tenacious. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You would say fierce is a good thing? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Oh, yes; and it can be a bad thing\u2014depends on who\u2019s on the throne. [Laughter] You know, the little picture with the circle in it\u2014the ego, our self, on the thrown or Christ on the throne of the heart. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I know that picture, yes. And you\u2019re saying\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I\u2019m saying that all is well with the fierce woman who has Jesus in control of her heart. And our guest on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is nodding her head. Kim Wagner joins us on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Kim, welcome to the broadcast. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Thank you, Dennis. Glad to be here. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And you might imagine, she has written a book called <em>The Power of a Soft Warrior<\/em>. It is titled <em>Fierce Women<\/em>. You believe women can be fierce and be good; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> I do. I actually think God created women to be strong\u2014with a fierceness to fulfill our role and calling by Him and to glorify Him\u2014but that fierceness can go bad pretty quickly. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Dennis:<\/strong> You married your husband, LeRoy, back in 1981. You have two adult children. You guys are about to be the proud grandparents of three grandchildren; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Correct. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And this whole subject of fierceness came about out of your own relationship with him; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Well, I was a fierce woman before I met LeRoy. [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> That\u2019s a good answer. That\u2019s a good answer. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> I definitely was. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Take us back to when you met him. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> In fact, he would say that fierceness is what drew him to me, really\u2014that my strength\u2014he wouldn\u2019t have described it back then as fierceness, but\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> So, you\u2019re talking about a determination\u2014steadfastness\u2014really, a fuel to be intentional and to be purposeful for what Christ has called you to. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Exactly. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> But that fierceness\u2014as you and LeRoy met and as you were first married\u2014began to seep through the cracks in some ungodly ways. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Yes, it morphed into a real ugliness. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Take us into that. How did you and LeRoy meet? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Well, we were both college students. He noticed me in Greek class because there were only two girls there and like thirty-two preacher boys. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> This was a Christian college? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Okay. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Yes. And I wasn\u2019t there at all looking for a preacher-boy husband. That is for sure. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Preacher-boy husband? Were you a flirt? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> No! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> So, you were fierce but not a flirt. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Right. So, he had noticed me. I hadn\u2019t really noticed him because there were a lot of preacher boys in there. He followed me to the cafeteria, one day, after class. So, he\u2019s standing in line, behind me, in the cafeteria. He has never spoken to me before. I don\u2019t even know his name. I barely know he is in my class, and his opening introductory line to me is\u2014if this is a pick-up line, it\u2019s pathetic\u2014but he said, \u201cDo you mind if I ask you a personal question?\u201d I\u2019m thinking: \u201cA personal question? I don\u2019t even know you.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u201cWhat is he going to ask?\u201d Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> \u201cWhat is he\u2026\u201d\u2014yes. And I\u2019m pretty upfront and transparent. So, I just said, \u201cNo, I don\u2019t guess so.\u201d He said, \u201cWhy are you in Greek class?\u201d It just went all over me. I just felt like: \u201cWhat a chauvinistic question? Why can\u2019t I be in Greek class?\u201d You know? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, I just looked at him\u2014and even though I come from a church background, which is complimentary, I\u2019ll say\u2014we don\u2019t have women pastors in my church background\u2014but I looked at him; and I said, \u201cBecause I want to study and learn the original language for myself so that I can better prepare myself to pastor my flock.\u201d [Ooh!] I turned around, and I went through the lunch line like that. You should have seen his face. His mouth just dropped open. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd I went through the lunch line thinking, \u201cOkay, I\u2019ve just lied.\u201d [Laughter] I\u2019m like so convicted by the Holy Spirit. I\u2019m thinking, \u201cWhat a jerk to ask me that question\u2014like I can\u2019t be in Greek class\u2014like I can\u2019t take Greek because I\u2019m a woman!\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, as I\u2019m getting the last of my condiments on my tray, I turned back around to him. I just looked at him; and I say: \u201cNo, I have to tell you the truth. The real reason I\u2019m taking Greek is because I grew up in a church with a moderate pastor, who was always answering my questions by saying: \u2018Well, that\u2019s not really what the Bible means. If you knew the original language, you could better understand.\u2019 I felt like I couldn\u2019t get my questions answered. I just wanted to study the Word for myself to grow in my relationship with Christ.\u201d So, then, he perked up with a big smile. [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> How long before he asked you out? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Oh, it was not long! [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> As in between the green beans and dessert? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> No, no, no, no. It was within probably a couple of weeks. Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> So, he found himself attracted to the young woman who really wanted to dig deep into God\u2019s Word. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> He did. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> That was one of the things that was attractive about you, to LeRoy. <br>\u00a0\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> What was it about him\u2014because, originally, he said: \u201cCan I ask you a personal question? Why are you in Greek?\u201d You weren\u2019t attracted to him at all. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Right; right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> When did that start to change? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> When I sat under my first message\u2014hearing him preach. That was really on our first actual\u2014what I would call date. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Now wait! On a date?\u2014He said, \u201cI want you to come hear me preach.\u201d [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> If his pick-up line\u2014if his pick-up line\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014is, \u201cCan I ask you a personal question?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014is, \u201c\u2026personal question?\u201d Then, it\u2019s only bettered by, \u201cCome with me on a date\u201d\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cwhile I preach.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cwhile I preach from the original languages.\u201d [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> You all are so cracking me up! Okay. We had actually hung out, the night before, at McDonald\u2019s\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Okay. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> \u2014with a couple of friends. He had just offered, \u201cWould you like to come tomorrow with me to church, where I pastor?\u201d You know, it was a small church. He was a student pastor. When I was a teenager, I lived on the west coast for a while and had a godly pastor. It had been years since I\u2019d really heard someone preaching from the Word of God with a true theological grounding and understanding but also with pathos. <br><br>As I sat in that service that Sunday, I was weeping because I\u2019d asked God, for so many years, to let me sit under that type of preaching again. It had been so long. So, I\u2019m weeping. LeRoy, from the pulpit\u2014he\u2019s thinking: \u201cOh no, this poor girl. She is either in bad shape\u2014she is just a sinful case or she\u2019s not saved, or I don\u2019t know what kind of basket-case she is.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> He\u2019s wondering what kind of conviction has come upon you, as he\u2019s preaching. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Right; right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob<\/strong>: And what was really going on\u2014is that they were tears of joy\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014that you were hearing God\u2019s Word preached faithfully\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014and preached with passion. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And you said, \u201cWhen can we go out again?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> No! [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Or did he take you on a crusade\u2014a series of messages that he did\u2014and then ask you to marry him? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> It wasn\u2019t long after that, actually, that he asked me to marry him. But it\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> It wasn\u2019t long\u2014like how long? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> You all don\u2019t\u2014I don\u2019t want to say this! I don\u2019t want children to\u2014are you editing all of this? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> No, we\u2019re not editing\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> No, we\u2019re not. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014this part. This part stays in. [Laughter] How long from the time\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> That\u2019s right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014you wept in church until he asked you to marry him? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Thirteen days. I know. I hope <em>no children<\/em> are listening to this and will follow in our footsteps. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> This was a personal crusade. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Yes! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Thirteen days. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> I know that is crazy now that I look\u2014but I didn\u2019t say, \u201cYes,\u201d right away. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Bob:<\/strong> How long did it take you to say, \u201cYes\u201d? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Awhile. I had\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Like how long? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> \u2014to pray. He had to meet my parents. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Like a month maybe? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Oh, wow!\u2014a month. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Then, how long before you were married? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> None of my radio interviews have asked me these questions. You guys are grueling. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I\u2019m sorry. We are. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Dennis:<\/strong> So, how long before you got married, then? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> A year. My dad did require we wait a year. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Thirteen days to the proposal, a month before you said, \u201cYes,\u201d and then, a little time to get to know one another. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Kim:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And that was your dad\u2019s wisdom\u2014to say, \u201cYou ought to just take it slow, kids;\u201d right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Yes, but my dad loved LeRoy\u2014that helped. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> So, you were married a year later. I\u2019m wondering how long, into your marriage, before LeRoy found out he was married to a spitfire.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And I haven\u2019t heard that term in a long time. As I say that term and that word\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You didn\u2019t pick that word. You used the word, \u201cspitfire\u201d, in your book, to describe you; don\u2019t you? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Yes. Yes, she does. And my mom was a spitfire. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Okay. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> So, I know what a fierce woman looks like\u2014in terms of who I\u2019m married to. I, also, was raised by a spitfire. How long did it take LeRoy to figure out he was married to one? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Well, on our honeymoon\u2014but he knew before then\u2014but on our honeymoon. And by spitfire\u2014you know, like we said\u2014\u201cThat can be a good thing or a bad thing.\u201d With me, my self-centered fierceness showed up like the third night of our honeymoon. When\u2014after he\u2019s\u2014we went to Colorado on our honeymoon\u2014long drive. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAfter he\u2019s driven many miles, and I\u2019ve napped in the car, and it\u2019s time to bed down for the night, he falls asleep on me, before the prayer is even over. I\u2019m like: \u201cWhat is up with this?! This is our honeymoon! This is cuddle time. This is quality time together.\u201d And it just hurt my feelings so much. So, I reacted fiercely. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> How did you react? What happened? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Well, first the crying, you know? And then\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Well, he\u2019s asleep. Did he even know you were crying? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Well, you have to cry loud enough that it wakes them up, you know? [Laughter] Then, when I tell him what\u2019s wrong, it\u2019s just like he\u2019s snoring and goes back to bed. So, then, the next day, he knew I was not a happy camper on our honeymoon. <br>\u00a0\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And did you make it clear to him that you were not a happy camper? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Oh, yes! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> How would you do that? I mean, give me some ideas of what a chilly morning, in Colorado with Kim, would have been like, on your honeymoon. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> This is the audience right here. [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> I know! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> You\u2019re not getting any help\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> My prayer warriors\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Dennis:<\/strong> They are praying for you. Just answer the question! [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> I could be so cruel. It is\u2014I hate to look back on it. I really do because\u2014it\u2019s amazing the depths that we, as women or individuals, can go to\u2014to punish another person just to\u2014whether it\u2019s the silent treatment\u2014but that wasn\u2019t usually my route. My route was to speak to him in a way that was so demeaning and to make him feel\u2014to make him feel worthless [Emotion in voice]. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> So, I know you probably don\u2019t remember exactly what you would have said the next morning after he\u2019d fallen asleep; but you could probably imagine the kinds of things you said over the years. What might you have said? What\u2019s the kind of thing you would have said to LeRoy, after a night when you had been disappointed because he fell asleep? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> You know, Bob, the kind of things I would say might not affect another man in the same way; but I think it\u2019s not necessarily the words we say, but it can be the tone\u2014the emphasis\u2014communicating to them that: \u201cYou\u2019re not measuring up in some way. You\u2019re not measuring up to my expectations. You\u2019re not fulfilling the role that I think you should fulfill in my life. You are not being, to me, what I want you to be,\u201d or even, really, what that man wants to be for the woman. That is emasculating to a man. That is so destructive to a man. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat has been so disconcerting to me, as we\u2019ve shared our story through the years\u2014there\u2019s a YouTube video that <em>Revive Our Hearts<\/em><em><sup>\u00ae<\/sup><\/em> produced, several years ago, where LeRoy and I both are sharing our marriage situation and the dark years. It wasn\u2019t that he was caught up in pornography, or wasn\u2019t financial problems, or wasn\u2019t immorality\u2014it was simply two sinners trying to meld their lives together, but reacting to one another in immature or selfish ways. Over and over again, people have told us: \u201cYou\u2019re telling our story. You have described us exactly.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I think it\u2019s the way most of us start our marriage relationship. I mean, we don\u2019t start as two perfect people who have come to grips with how selfish we are. In fact, that\u2019s one of the big lessons, early-on. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI remember early, in our marriage, going, \u201cI didn\u2019t realize how much I thought about myself and not about somebody else.\u201d What I want to know is\u2014how did LeRoy respond when you spoke in a demeaning tone and chipped away at who he was as a man. Did he get angry? Did he withdraw? Did he lash back? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> He did what I think a lot of men do. He tried, at first, to counter my outbursts or my negativity; but eventually, he just shut down, and pulled away, and went into his silent cave. I tell people it was like we were living as roommates, together, for several years. There was this darkness that we both lived in. We were functioning. We would minister to other people. We both loved the Lord, loved His Word; but when we came together, there were no words. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Because you were in isolation in your marriage because of the harshness? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Because our marriage was not functioning in a way that we knew pleased God. How could we, with integrity, counsel other couples? How could he preach, even? He struggled with preaching the power of the Gospel when he wasn\u2019t seeing it lived out in his home. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Ultimately, he came to you, five years into your marriage, and made a pronouncement. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Yes. He let me know that, \u201cI don\u2019t think I love you anymore.\u201d I had, for so long, said, \u201cWell, if you loved me\u2014da, da, da\u2014fill in the blank\u2026.\u201d It suddenly dawned on him: \u201cYou know what? I don\u2019t think I love you anymore.\u201d I don\u2019t blame him, as far as that emotional love\u2014and of course, that was a young man, speaking out of emotion\u2014but I wasn\u2019t loveable. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou know, I had my hurts and resentment. I would lash out at him. He had this simmering, deep-seated anger, I guess, and resentment\u2014but even more than that\u2014eventually, in our marriage, he admitted to being fearful of me\u2014which I would have never dreamed. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Did you think about divorce, at that point? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> No! Divorce was never an option. I mean, we were committed to Christ. We even married on the basis of\u2014I had always said, \u201cI would never marry someone until I believed God could be brought greater glory through our marriage\u2014through being married than being single.\u201d So, that was never an option. We were living to display the truth of the Word of God to people, but we weren\u2019t doing it in our marriage. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> So, you\u2019re not going to get a divorce, at this point; but you don\u2019t have any\u2014you don\u2019t have any hope for how you\u2019re going to get any better; do you? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> No! We were so hopeless. That\u2019s what I hope women, listening today\u2014who are in a very dark place\u2014I kept thinking: \u201cThere\u2019s got to be an answer. There\u2019s got to be a key to this. If God put us together\u2014and I did believe God put us together\u2014why is it so dark? Why can\u2019t I reach his heart?\u201d I hope women, listening, will have hope in knowing that God sees, He cares, and He desires to step into your marriage and work. I am so grateful that He did step into our lives to work. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI kept crying out in prayer for God to work and change him. [Laughter] He was praying the same thing, without me knowing it\u2014for God to change me. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> It seems, to me, that LeRoy fired a warning shot. He was trying to get your attention. He was trying to send you a signal that something profoundly dear to him was dying or was dead, at that point. Did you get the message? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Not at that point; I didn\u2019t. I did not recognize, at all, my role in being the problem in the relationship. Now, it\u2019s never just one person who is the problem; but God needed to bring me to the point where my eyes were open to, \u201cIt is not all LeRoy,\u201d and to take responsibility for my role in it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I don\u2019t know where this came from in our marriage; but one of the characteristics, early-on in our marriage, was cultivating and protecting a teachable spirit and taking responsibility for our own stuff. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> It\u2019s so easy to blame the other person. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I don\u2019t know where it came from; but I am convinced that some of the toughness of those early years in our marriage\u2014which were, at times, tough\u2014were blunted because both Barbara and I, occasionally, would look at the log in our own eyes, rather than thinking that the log was in our spouse\u2019s eye. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Kim:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I think teachability is something you have to protect and keep alive in your marriage relationship. As a couple\u2014speaking of the word, fierce\u2014fiercely keep your covenant and fiercely own your own stuff and your own responsibility because, at the end of the day, that\u2019s all you\u2019re responsible for anyway. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Whenever I get a chance to speak at one of our <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em><sup>\u00ae <\/sup>marriage getaways, I start, on Friday night, by saying: \u201cIf you brought your spouse here, hoping we can fix your spouse, you\u2019re going to be disappointed because the truth is\u2014 we\u2019re not even going to talk to your spouse this weekend. We came to talk to you.\u201d Obviously, I\u2019m saying it to both of them.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> So, they recognize it\u2019s going to go both ways; but the point is\u2014the only person we can really have responsibility for is ourselves. The only person we can really change, with God\u2019s help, is us. That\u2019s where we need to be focused: Matthew, Chapter 7, Jesus said: \u201cIt\u2019s easy to see the speck in your brother\u2019s eye, but you missed the log in your own eye. You have to first take the log out of your eye before you can help your brother with his speck.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think that\u2019s true for husbands and wives; but Kim, I think you\u2019ve done a great job of helping wives, in particular, see where they may be fierce in an ungodly way and to help them learn how they can be fierce women in a way that brings honor and glory to God. We\u2019ve got copies of Kim\u2019s book, <em>Fierce Women<\/em>, in our <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Resource Center. You can go, online, for more information about how to get a copy of the book. The website is FamilyLifeToday.com\u2014once again, FamilyLifeToday.com\u2014or call 1-800-FL-TODAY. Say, \u201cI\u2019m interested in the book, <em>Fierce Women<\/em>, by Kim Wagner\u201d\u20141-800-358-6329. That\u2019s 1-800- \u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then, the word, \u201cTODAY\u201d. Get in touch with us, and we\u2019ll see what we can do about getting a copy of Kim\u2019s book to you. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou know, as I was hearing Kim share her story today, I was thinking about some of the conversations that took place between Kim and Krickitt Carpenter, a couple that we interviewed, a while back, who\u2014they actually had a Hollywood movie made of their story\u2014a movie called <em>The Vow<\/em>. When Krickitt Carpenter came out from a coma, she had no memory of her husband. In fact, was caustic toward him and not sure she liked him. Her personality had changed because of the head trauma that she had experienced. Yet, even in the midst of that, God did an amazing reconciling, redeeming work. They continue today, happily married, as husband and wife. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br>We are making the CD of their story available this week to those of you who are able to help support <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> with a donation. You just need to know we appreciate you when you call or go online and help support the ministry. Your donations help cover the costs of producing and syndicating this daily radio program. We\u2019re grateful for your financial support. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com today. Click the button that says, \u201cI CARE\u201d. Make an online donation, or call 1-800-FL-TODAY and make your donation over the phone. Ask for the CD with the Carpenters when you get in touch with us. We\u2019re happy to send it out to you; and we just want to say: \u201cThank you very much. Thanks for helping to support the ministry of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. We appreciate you.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd we hope you can join us back again tomorrow. Kim Wagner is going to be here again. We\u2019re going to talk about what a wife should do\u2014how she should speak and act toward her husband when he\u2019s not a godly, responsible man. We\u2019ll talk about that tomorrow. Hope you can join us for that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2013 FamilyLife. 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