{"id":302713,"date":"2013-04-11T11:00:00","date_gmt":"2013-04-11T15:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/a-pastors-journey-through-sexual-addiction\/"},"modified":"2013-04-11T11:00:00","modified_gmt":"2013-04-11T15:00:00","slug":"a-pastors-journey-through-sexual-addiction","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/a-pastors-journey-through-sexual-addiction\/","title":{"rendered":"A Pastor&#8217;s Journey Through Sexual Addiction"},"content":{"rendered":"","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Like Paul, we often do what we don\u2019t want to do, and don\u2019t do what we should.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2013-04-11.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:","filesize":"22.53M","filesize_raw":"23620760","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2844],"tags":[2872,2989,2487],"podcast_series":[7939],"cwp_profile":[9296],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-302713","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-pornography","tag-addiction","tag-pornography","tag-sexual-addiction","podcast_series-ashamed-no-more","cwp_profile-tom-ryan","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/302713\/a-pastors-journey-through-sexual-addiction","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/302713\/a-pastors-journey-through-sexual-addiction","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"TNG9e1PlIa\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/a-pastors-journey-through-sexual-addiction\/\">A Pastor&#8217;s Journey Through Sexual Addiction<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/a-pastors-journey-through-sexual-addiction\/embed\/#?secret=TNG9e1PlIa\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;A Pastor&#8217;s Journey Through Sexual Addiction&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"TNG9e1PlIa\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2013-04-11.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2013-04-11.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> For years, in his marriage and in his ministry, Tom Ryan had a carefully-guarded secret. It was an ongoing pattern of sexual sin that one day brought him to a breaking point. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> I was outside of my car, sitting on a log. I prayed, \u201cGod in heaven, I cannot believe I\u2019m in this place again! I cannot believe I\u2019m relapsing. I cannot believe I\u2019m in this park. I don\u2019t care what You have to do. You have to do something. <em>Please<\/em> break this in my life.\u201d Now, that wasn\u2019t the <em>first<\/em> time I\u2019d prayed that prayer; but it was the last time. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Thursday, April 11<sup>th<\/sup>. Our host is the President of FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, Dennis Rainey, and I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We\u2019ll hear what made that day a different day in Tom Ryan\u2019s life. Stay with us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. I want our listeners to just imagine for a second\u2014maybe, you\u2019re on the deacon board or the elder board at your church\u2014maybe, you\u2019re just a faithful member at your church\u2014but the pastor comes to you, one Sunday morning, or at a deacon meeting on Tuesday night\u2014and he says, \u201cThere\u2019s something I\u2019ve got to let you know\u2014something I\u2019ve got to tell you.\u201d He tells you about his background, his experience of being involved in sexual, compulsive\u2014looking at porn\u2014he\u2019s been doing it for years. What do you do? How do you respond in that situation? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Well, I know what the Scriptures teach; and I know that that group of people\u2014the Church\u2014a group of broken, depraved, sinful, selfish wretches\u2014I know how they should respond. It should be a safe place for anybody to be able to come clean; but unfortunately, we\u2019re much too like the woman who was caught in adultery. Everybody picks up a stone and gets ready to cast the stone. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Come clean, and keep his job, and preach again next Sunday? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Well, you know, I\u2019m not sure about that because I don\u2019t know, necessarily, all the details of what you are talking about there; but it has to start somewhere, in terms of repentance, and the beginning of the road toward restoration. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I think our guest might be able to enlighten us a little bit on how a scenario like that can play out; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Well, he\u2019s written a book called <em>Ashamed No More<\/em>\u2014subtitled: <em>A Pastor\u2019s Journey Through Sex Addiction<\/em>. Tom Ryan joins us again on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Tom, welcome back. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Thank you, Dennis. Thank you, Bob. Great to be here. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Tom lives outside of Kansas City, Missouri. He is the proud dad of four children\u2014four adult children\u2014married to Pam since 1978. You, now, give leadership to a ministry where you\u2019re hoping to help\u2014not only pastors and men in ministry\u2014but as far as that goes, anyone who\u2019s struggling with some kind of sexual addiction; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> That\u2019s right. Yes, a number of clergy as well as a number of lay people. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And all of this borne out of your own experience and your coming-clean moment. I guess you\u2014you talk about 2008 as kind of the watershed year in your life; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Well, getting arrested will do that for a guy. I don\u2019t mean to make light of that; but quite seriously, I got arrested. It was part of my addiction. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Okay, before you go to that story in the park\u2014okay?\u2014backtrack, just a moment, and let our listeners know what had been your journey, through pornography, that got you to that park in 2008. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Somewhere, early in adolescence, I\u2019d stumbled into the whole exploration of sexuality and found that fantasy and self-gratification were powerful experiences. What I couldn\u2019t understand at the time\u2014but since have learned\u2014is that was a way in which I could cope with the chaotic environment. It became a repetitive behavior. Then, it became something that I depended upon. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe know, now, through the neurosciences, that there is a biochemistry to addiction. There is, certainly, a biochemistry to sex addiction or to compulsive sexual behavior, as I call it. I stumbled into that pathway. At the same time, I\u2019m meeting Jesus. I\u2019m growing in faith\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You go to seminary.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Oh, I go to seminary. I earn a couple of degrees. I earn a doctorate. I planted a church. I raised four kids\u2014a lot of great ministry in the church\u2014<em>great people<\/em> that I was a part of\u2014but at the same time, I have this thing that I can\u2019t quite break. I start to tell others\u2014a few others\u2014a few <em>safe<\/em> others\u2014and that was really hard. I went to a therapist, at first\u2014that I thought was safe. Then, told my best friend, a few months later\u2014then, my wife, a year later, and all that.\u00a0 <br><br>As I talk about it, in the book, <em>Ashamed No More<\/em>, there was a particular trajectory in my journey I needed to kind of get to an implosion point. I don\u2019t believe that most guys need to do that. Dennis, I don\u2019t think that needs to happen. I don\u2019t think most clergy, who are struggling with this, have to blow up or have to leave. I <em>adamantly<\/em> do not believe that that is the case. In <em>my<\/em> case, I was stuck. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> What\u2014nothing could have happened earlier on to keep you out of the park in 2008? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> That\u2019s a fantastic question; and Jesus alone knows the answer to it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> But you never found\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> I didn\u2019t find it, and I don\u2019t think so. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> The counselor you were seeing wasn\u2019t able to help you. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> My therapist was brilliant; but what he started saying, after a few years, was: \u201cThere\u2019s some hidden piece, and I can\u2019t get to it. I\u2019m afraid you\u2019re going to have to leave ministry for us to find that. I don\u2019t want you to leave ministry; but I think that\u2019s what\u2019s going to have to happen.\u201d And he was right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Your elder board knew nothing of any of this. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> They didn\u2019t know anything. My accountability group said: \u201cDon\u2019t tell your elder group this. Don\u2019t do this. If you weren\u2019t working on this, if you weren\u2019t struggling mightily with this, if we didn\u2019t see the progress that you <em>are<\/em> making and the effort that you are putting forward, we\u2019d tell you just to get out of the ministry,\u201d because Pam and I kept asking: \u201cShouldn\u2019t we get out of the ministry? Isn\u2019t this wrong?\u201d I felt so hypocritical. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Your wife was aware that this was a regular\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> For a number of years, she was aware of my struggles. And I\u2019d go periods\u2014you know\u2014of being sober; but then, I\u2019d relapse. It was a nightmare. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Did she never come to you and say, \u201cLook!\u201d\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Oh, yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cEnough is enough. Either you fix this thing\u201d\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> She didn\u2019t come to me like that, but she asked the question\u2014we were on our knees together. She could tell you that she felt guilty herself: \u201cShouldn\u2019t I go tell the elders? Lord, are we doing the right thing?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut we were a part of the same accountability structure. The same accountability group was saying to her: \u201cYou guys are working on this. Tom\u2019s working on this. You guys do really great ministry. Tom will be a better preacher, a better pastor, when he gets to the other side of sustained sobriety. So, keep going.\u201d I mean\u2014each phase, each time\u2014\u2014we kept asking that question\u2014the word that came back to us was: \u201cKeep going. Take the next step.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Bob:<\/strong> If you were in the accountability group, for a guy like you today, would you give the same counsel that your accountability group was giving you? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Yes, I would; and I\u2019ll tell you why. Because there really was, in my particular trajectory, this hidden little, weird piece from my mother and the way ministry insulated it. I did have to blow up\u2014but I had to blow up in a certain way\u2014and I wrote about this in the book\u2014for that to become detectable. And another piece of that was my mother needed to be gone, unfortunately. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt\u2019s complicated. I\u2019m not trying to make excuses, and it\u2019s really important\u2014and you know this from the tenor of the book\u2014the way I write the book. I don\u2019t write this with any sense of: \u201cWell, my problems are somebody else\u2019s,\u201d or, \u201cIt\u2019s my parents\u2026\u201d or, \u201cIt\u2019s my upbringing.\u201d No, my sins are my sins. It\u2019s my responsibility, and my recovery is my responsibility. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I liked the way you handled that. When you did mention, ever so slightly\u2014you didn\u2019t really reveal, in the book, what took place\u2014but you grew up in a home where your dad suffered from Asperger\u2019s Syndrome? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> That\u2019s\u2014it wasn\u2019t diagnosed then; but that\u2019s what we would say now. Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> A mild form of that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> He really lacked social skills and emotional closeness. He was just a very vacant person. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Your mom, on the other hand, struggled from an emotional disorder. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Yes, she was bipolar. She was an unhappy person. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And a part of the dark side, that marked you, involved her; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Yes. Yes. She had deep needs that were never met. She lived a terribly unhappy life\u2014and too much of the responsibility for her emotional well-being\u2014I think, put on me. Again, I don\u2019t say that to say, \u201cWell, then, it\u2019s not my fault,\u201d or, \u201cIt\u2019s not my responsibility.\u201d Of course, it\u2019s my responsibility. My life is my life. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut for some of us\u2014and for some who are listeners\u2014pulling apart some of that history is going to be important. The more intelligent a person is, the harder it is to deal with this addiction. Sounds counter-intuitive, but it\u2019s not because we need to understand. We have to know why. That leads us to the place where\u2014and not all Christians want to hear this\u2014but sometimes, it\u2019s okay\u2014sometimes, it\u2019s even going to be necessary to have a trained professional help us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Or to have a train wreck. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> You\u2019re going to have one or the other. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Which is what wound up happening\u2014you had a trained professional helping you. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Yes, and I still had a train wreck. In retrospect, I had the lightest, easiest train wreck you could have. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Tell us what took you to the park on that day in 2008. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> I was just in a bad\u2014I had been coming apart for several years. I was really losing my edge\u2014my ability to hold a lot of things together, to perform, and to make life work. I was cycling more and more with depression, and anxiety, emptiness. We had gone through several transitions at the church. The church was doing relatively well; but I was just coming apart, trying to keep it all together. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHad a meeting cancel\u2014I knew this park where men exchanged porn. I\u2019d put Covenant Eyes on my laptop, years before, so that had locked me out from internet porn; but when you\u2019re a drunk, you\u2019ll go drink the radiator fluid if you have to when you\u2019re wanting the buzz. So, I thought I\u2019d go out to this park; and I got arrested. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Well, before you get to the arrest, explain to me this whole concept of men going to a park to exchange porn. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Well, not every park has this feature; and not every place where men gather do they exchange porn. This is just one of the wrinkles. I\u2019d been around recovery circles enough that you hear stories about this happening and other things. So, I knew about this particular park\u2014there were just a few guys who had print porn\u2014and they liked to swap it. That was a simple story on this particular park. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> So, it was a place you could go to get something in print? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Yes. My understanding is there\u2019s not a lot of that going on anymore. Now, I haven\u2019t been back since April 17<sup>th<\/sup> of 2008. I haven\u2019t been to any park, doing this, since April 2008. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> It seems to me that it\u2019s just a click away today. You don\u2019t have to go anywhere. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Tom:<\/strong> Exactly. That\u2019s my understanding. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> So, April 17, 2008, you go, \u201cI\u2019m just going to go down there.\u201d You needed something. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> I needed a buzz. I needed something. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> I needed to just fill the hours. I needed to distract myself. You can numb-out and dumb-out with compulsive, sexual thinking, a myriad of ways\u2014just distract yourself\u2014just waste time, just get away, just stop thinking, stop feeling, just numb-out. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> So, what happened? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Well, what happened was\u2014I, actually, was accused of something that I didn\u2019t particularly do. It\u2019s not important because, as far as I\u2019m concerned, relapsing is relapsing. So, I\u2019m guilty of all of it; right? And there was an accusation\u2014a phone call made to the police\u2014I got arrested. I was so ashamed when the squad car pulled up. You know, I\u2019m a pastor\u2014a great church. You know, I\u2019m relapsing, I\u2019m struggling, and I\u2019m worn out. I\u2019m emotionally-fatigued, spiritually-empty. I\u2019m, at that point now, where I\u2019ve lost hope, Dennis. I have not lost <em>faith<\/em>\u2014still believe in God, believe in His Christ, believed in the truths of the Gospel\u2014but I lost hope. There was something about <em>me <\/em>that was so deficient that God wasn\u2019t reaching through. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd just before this had actually happened, in the park, I was, outside of my car, sitting on a log. I prayed, \u201cGod in heaven, I cannot believe I\u2019m in this place again! I cannot believe I\u2019m relapsing. I cannot believe I\u2019m in this park. I don\u2019t care what You have to do. You have to do something. <em>Please<\/em> break this in my life.\u201d Now, that wasn\u2019t the <em>first<\/em> time I\u2019d prayed that prayer; but it was the last time. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> God answered it that day. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> He did answer it\u2014not the way I would wish, I suppose. But I have to be honest, looking\u2014I\u2019m still somewhat ashamed I got arrested. I mean, who\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Who wouldn\u2019t be; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> \u2014likes that idea. And I spent\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Of course. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> \u2014and it wasn\u2019t two hours, like the officer told me. It was twenty-six hours, and it was overnight. My depression hit rock bottom. I mean, I was put in a cell by myself; and I started thinking about how I could take the exit ramp. I had a strategy. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> You\u2019re speaking of suicide? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> I am, and I was ready to go there. Except that, as a pastor, I\u2019d buried suicides. I ministered to their families, and I saw their faces. The Holy Spirit put my kids\u2019 faces and my wife\u2019s face on the faces of those grieving ones left behind to say: \u201cWhy? What didn\u2019t we see? What could we have done differently? Why?\u201d I thought, \u201cOkay, that\u2019s the one thing left to me that I can do that\u2019ll make this worse,\u201d because I was sure this was going to be in the papers\u2014I\u2019m sure this is going to come out. It never did come out. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Really? It was not in the papers? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> It wasn\u2019t in the papers, no. <br><br><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Pam comes and picks you up from jail? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> She does, the next day. That was a terrible afternoon and a terrible period for both of us. We both knew our marriage was over, at that point, because she\u2019d been with me through these cycles. I was going to resign ministry. We thought it\u2019d be out in the paper. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen I called her on my one call, she called my therapist, she called my sponsor, and she called my friend, Joe. Joe began to pray, \u201cLord, would You please keep this from the papers to protect the church\u2014protect the Ryan kids?\u201d The Lord did. It didn\u2019t come out in the papers. I resigned the next board meeting\u2014it was ten days later. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Did you tell them what had happened? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> No, I said to them\u2014again, I was guided by accountability\u2014my accountability circle said: \u201cGod hasn\u2019t brought it out in the papers and in the public. Don\u2019t you trump Him! Don\u2019t you do that yourself. You need to get out. It\u2019s time. Yes, take the next step of therapy. Get out of the ministry. Tell them you\u2019ve got to leave.\u201d <br><br>So, what I said to them was literally this\u2014and I think this is verbatim\u2014\u201cI\u2019m engaging in self-destructive behaviors. You guys know I\u2019ve been in therapy and struggling with anxiety and depression. I\u2019ve got childhood issues I can\u2019t resolve. I\u2019m engaging in self-destructive behaviors. They\u2019re going to take me down, and they\u2019re going to hurt the church if I don\u2019t leave. I have to leave.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe board never asked, \u201cWell, what are your self-destructive behaviors?\u201d You know, again, there was a level of transparency in my preaching that they got the fact that I was struggling and that I had an element of brokenness in my life that was pretty severe. They got that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> They try to talk you out of it? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> They did. They said, \u201cWould you like a sabbatical\u2014how about a sabbatical?\u201d \u201cNo, I\u2019m leaving ministry;\u201d because as far as I was concerned, my marriage was over\u2014ministry was over. I had blown up everything\u2014destroyed life, as I knew it. I wasn\u2019t sure I was going to be able to continue on. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Did you and Pam talk about a divorce after you left\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014the jail cell that day? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Yes. My wife has uncommon common sense. One of the things she realized was that, \u201cIf we divorce right now, everybody will know that.\u201d I mean, Kansas City is not a big town. Then, the questions will flood in as to why. She was very sensitive to the church. She loved the church\u2014cared about the people of the church. \u201cEventually, in God\u2019s time, we\u2019ll handle this.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe other piece of wisdom that Pam operated with was, \u201cUnless you\u2019re absolutely in crisis in a moment\u2014in fact, in crisis isn\u2019t a good time to make radical decisions\u2014but unless it\u2019s a life-preserving crisis, a life-threatening crisis\u2014no decision has to be made immediately.\u201d You know? None of the kids were in the house. We separated within the house. She would bide her time and wait for the Lord to lead in a clear path that would make sense. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> How long did that separation\u2014that physical separation\u2014occur? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Was it weeks? Was it months\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Oh, it was months. It was a long time! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014while you were processing with your accountability partner, with your counselor? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Yes, my therapist. See, what happened with me was I had to unplug the acting-out life. Well, when I got arrested, that unplugged\u2014when somebody, who\u2019s compulsive, gets a shock to the system, the addictive personality kind of goes into a little bit of a coma. It just\u2014it\u2019s like a bad little boy that slinks behind the sofa in the living room and says, \u201cI better stay out of sight.\u201d Mine did for a lot of months because getting arrested will do that. It did for me. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br>I left ministry which, as we would find out, was a real insulating covering because every time I did competent ministry\u2014and I did a lot of it by God\u2019s grace, mercy, and call\u2014every time I did this ministry\u2014it was, unfortunately, both hiding the provocation of my compulsive behavior and my disease and fueling it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Compulsive guys I\u2019ve talked to\u2014when something like that happens, there is a prolonged period before they drift back\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014but they eventually drift back. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Often; often. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You didn\u2019t. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> I didn\u2019t. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Haven\u2019t. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Haven\u2019t\u2014yes, exactly, because I\u2019m maintaining. You know the big book of AA is prescient wisdom, I think. It says, \u201cIn recovery, what we\u2019re basically granted is a reprieve, based upon the daily maintenance of a spiritual condition.\u201d Well, guys, that\u2019s the Christian life! We are granted a reprieve of who you would be, apart from Christ\u2014of where our sins would normally take us\u2014and our sin nature\u2014of the consequences of our sin and judgment. We\u2019re basically granted a reprieve. <br><br>So, for me, what happened was\u2014in the plugging-in of this therapy, during this vacuum period\u2014we were able to pull apart some of the subterranean pathways, if you will, in my soul\u2014and start to develop better and healthier ones\u2014and cobble together a different way of thinking, a different way of living. Because I had an advance of the addictive provocation in my soul, it worked for me. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br>Now, in a different way, but in a similar way\u2014everybody that\u2019s compulsive\u2014needs to do something along those lines because we do tend to drift back. This becomes our default status until we develop a more preferential one. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And you still have a whole congregation of people going, \u201cWhat happened?\u201d Speculation\u2019s got to be running wild\u2014people coming up to you going, \u201cTom, what gives? What did you\u2014\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Well, they didn\u2019t actually. Isn\u2019t that stunning? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Really?! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Yes. Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You just\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> The board asked me to stay three months. Again, there was a level of transparency. I mean, there were some Sundays when Pam came home and said\u2014because we had a ton of recovery alcoholics in our church. We had the second largest AA Chapter, in the state of Kansas, in our church. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tShe said: \u201cThere are so many recovering people. They\u2019ve got to know you\u2019re an addict. They\u2019re probably guessing it is sex because you don\u2019t manifest what drug or alcohol addiction would manifest\u201d\u2014and because of things that I would say in terms of talking about my own brokenness. So, people got brokenness. I think what they figured was that it was a massive burn-out, and I was just flamed-out. I think that\u2019s what\u2014and I know that\u2019s what some of them thought. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob<\/strong>: And you go to work at Domino\u2019s or what did you do? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> No, I had severance for about seven months, for which I am grateful. At that point, a really good friend from Pastor Serve, Jimmy Dodd, came alongside and cobbled together kind of a low-grade ministry to pastors. There were some faithful, loving people that supported that ministry through Pastor Serve. That\u2019s morphed into the Shame No More Project. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> What I want our listeners to hear and take away from this story, first of all, is that pornography is a predator\u2014preying upon us\u2014whether male or female. We used to think this was just an exclusive male problem; but it\u2019s not. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> No. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> One-third of the users of pornography on the internet are women. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Secondly, we need to realize that we are the prey; and we need to be on-guard about this. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> When we\u2019re travelling alone, we need to be careful about channel surfing.\u00a0 When we\u2019re on our computer, it needs to be in a public place. We need to be honest and truthful with our spouse about what\u2019s taking place in our lives. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd then, thirdly, our children\u2014I\u2019d love to say, \u201c\u2026need to be protected,\u201d and wishfully, hopefully, I\u2019d like to think that my grandkids would never experience this\u2014but that\u2019s not the lay of the land today. The nature of pornography, being so predatory today, is it\u2019s going to find a way to weasel into your children and your grandchildren\u2019s lives. So, as parents, we have to develop a relationship that is safe\u2014that doesn\u2019t condemn.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And as you\u2019ve been talking, Tom, the passage in Romans 8, which you talk about in your book, has just been echoing in my mind. Romans 8:1, which says, \u201cThere is, therefore, now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Absolutely. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Jesus Christ offers the forgiveness that the soul longs for, and it\u2019s the solution to the shame that you talk about in your book. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And I appreciate the fact that you provide the steps that you took\u2014the steps that led you from bondage to liberation\u2014they\u2019re in your book which is called<em> Ashamed No More<\/em>. And we have copies of the book available in our <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Resource Center. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com for more information about Tom\u2019s book. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThere is also information about other books\u2014available for wives of men who have struggled with sexually-compulsive behavior\u2014to help wives understand how you can process and deal with and support your husband in his journey to liberation, as well. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tGo to FamilyLifeToday.com for more information; or call us if you need any help at 1-800-FL-TODAY, 1-800-358-6329. That\u2019s 1-800- \u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then, the word, \u201cTODAY\u201d. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to take just a minute to say, \u201cThanks,\u201d to those of you who make the ministry of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> possible\u2014those of you who share our concern about issues facing marriages and families and want to see strong, healthy, godly families emerging in our culture, starting at your house, and spreading out from there. We appreciate your partnership with us and your financial support of this ministry. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIn fact, this week, if you can make a donation to help support <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, we would like to say, \u201cThank you,\u201d by making available a CD that has a conversation on it that we had with Dr. Ed Welch from the Christian Counseling and Education Foundation about the issue of addiction\u2014whether it\u2019s the kind of compulsive behavior we\u2019ve been talking about today or whether it\u2019s addiction to alcohol, or drugs, or other substances. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAt the core, Dr. Welch says, \u201cAddiction is ultimately a worship disorder.\u201d We talk more about that on this audio CD. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe\u2019d love to send the CD to you as our way of saying, \u201cThank you for your financial support of the ministry of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\u201d All you have to do is go to FamilyLifeToday.com. Click the button that says, \u201cI CARE\u201d, and make an online donation; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY. Make your donation over the phone, and just ask for the CD on addictions. We\u2019ll be happy to send it to you, and we do appreciate your support of this ministry. It\u2019s always great to hear from you. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd we hope you can be back with us tomorrow. We\u2019ll introduce you to a woman who was preyed upon, sexually, and was harassed by one of her high school teachers. You\u2019ll hear Lisa Troyer\u2019s story tomorrow. Hope you can be with us for that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you.\u00a0 However, there is a cost to produce them for our website.\u00a0 If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2013 FamilyLife.\u00a0 All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0 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Paul, we often do what we don\u2019t want to do, and don\u2019t do what we should.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2013-04-11.pdf","transcript_content":"<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> For years, in his marriage and in his ministry, Tom Ryan had a carefully-guarded secret. It was an ongoing pattern of sexual sin that one day brought him to a breaking point. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> I was outside of my car, sitting on a log. I prayed, \u201cGod in heaven, I cannot believe I\u2019m in this place again! I cannot believe I\u2019m relapsing. I cannot believe I\u2019m in this park. I don\u2019t care what You have to do. You have to do something. <em>Please<\/em> break this in my life.\u201d Now, that wasn\u2019t the <em>first<\/em> time I\u2019d prayed that prayer; but it was the last time. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Thursday, April 11<sup>th<\/sup>. Our host is the President of FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, Dennis Rainey, and I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We\u2019ll hear what made that day a different day in Tom Ryan\u2019s life. Stay with us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. I want our listeners to just imagine for a second\u2014maybe, you\u2019re on the deacon board or the elder board at your church\u2014maybe, you\u2019re just a faithful member at your church\u2014but the pastor comes to you, one Sunday morning, or at a deacon meeting on Tuesday night\u2014and he says, \u201cThere\u2019s something I\u2019ve got to let you know\u2014something I\u2019ve got to tell you.\u201d He tells you about his background, his experience of being involved in sexual, compulsive\u2014looking at porn\u2014he\u2019s been doing it for years. What do you do? How do you respond in that situation? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Well, I know what the Scriptures teach; and I know that that group of people\u2014the Church\u2014a group of broken, depraved, sinful, selfish wretches\u2014I know how they should respond. It should be a safe place for anybody to be able to come clean; but unfortunately, we\u2019re much too like the woman who was caught in adultery. Everybody picks up a stone and gets ready to cast the stone. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Come clean, and keep his job, and preach again next Sunday? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Well, you know, I\u2019m not sure about that because I don\u2019t know, necessarily, all the details of what you are talking about there; but it has to start somewhere, in terms of repentance, and the beginning of the road toward restoration. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I think our guest might be able to enlighten us a little bit on how a scenario like that can play out; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Well, he\u2019s written a book called <em>Ashamed No More<\/em>\u2014subtitled: <em>A Pastor\u2019s Journey Through Sex Addiction<\/em>. Tom Ryan joins us again on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Tom, welcome back. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Thank you, Dennis. Thank you, Bob. Great to be here. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Tom lives outside of Kansas City, Missouri. He is the proud dad of four children\u2014four adult children\u2014married to Pam since 1978. You, now, give leadership to a ministry where you\u2019re hoping to help\u2014not only pastors and men in ministry\u2014but as far as that goes, anyone who\u2019s struggling with some kind of sexual addiction; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> That\u2019s right. Yes, a number of clergy as well as a number of lay people. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And all of this borne out of your own experience and your coming-clean moment. I guess you\u2014you talk about 2008 as kind of the watershed year in your life; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Well, getting arrested will do that for a guy. I don\u2019t mean to make light of that; but quite seriously, I got arrested. It was part of my addiction. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Okay, before you go to that story in the park\u2014okay?\u2014backtrack, just a moment, and let our listeners know what had been your journey, through pornography, that got you to that park in 2008. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Somewhere, early in adolescence, I\u2019d stumbled into the whole exploration of sexuality and found that fantasy and self-gratification were powerful experiences. What I couldn\u2019t understand at the time\u2014but since have learned\u2014is that was a way in which I could cope with the chaotic environment. It became a repetitive behavior. Then, it became something that I depended upon. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe know, now, through the neurosciences, that there is a biochemistry to addiction. There is, certainly, a biochemistry to sex addiction or to compulsive sexual behavior, as I call it. I stumbled into that pathway. At the same time, I\u2019m meeting Jesus. I\u2019m growing in faith\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You go to seminary.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Oh, I go to seminary. I earn a couple of degrees. I earn a doctorate. I planted a church. I raised four kids\u2014a lot of great ministry in the church\u2014<em>great people<\/em> that I was a part of\u2014but at the same time, I have this thing that I can\u2019t quite break. I start to tell others\u2014a few others\u2014a few <em>safe<\/em> others\u2014and that was really hard. I went to a therapist, at first\u2014that I thought was safe. Then, told my best friend, a few months later\u2014then, my wife, a year later, and all that.\u00a0 <br><br>As I talk about it, in the book, <em>Ashamed No More<\/em>, there was a particular trajectory in my journey I needed to kind of get to an implosion point. I don\u2019t believe that most guys need to do that. Dennis, I don\u2019t think that needs to happen. I don\u2019t think most clergy, who are struggling with this, have to blow up or have to leave. I <em>adamantly<\/em> do not believe that that is the case. In <em>my<\/em> case, I was stuck. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> What\u2014nothing could have happened earlier on to keep you out of the park in 2008? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> That\u2019s a fantastic question; and Jesus alone knows the answer to it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> But you never found\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> I didn\u2019t find it, and I don\u2019t think so. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> The counselor you were seeing wasn\u2019t able to help you. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> My therapist was brilliant; but what he started saying, after a few years, was: \u201cThere\u2019s some hidden piece, and I can\u2019t get to it. I\u2019m afraid you\u2019re going to have to leave ministry for us to find that. I don\u2019t want you to leave ministry; but I think that\u2019s what\u2019s going to have to happen.\u201d And he was right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Your elder board knew nothing of any of this. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> They didn\u2019t know anything. My accountability group said: \u201cDon\u2019t tell your elder group this. Don\u2019t do this. If you weren\u2019t working on this, if you weren\u2019t struggling mightily with this, if we didn\u2019t see the progress that you <em>are<\/em> making and the effort that you are putting forward, we\u2019d tell you just to get out of the ministry,\u201d because Pam and I kept asking: \u201cShouldn\u2019t we get out of the ministry? Isn\u2019t this wrong?\u201d I felt so hypocritical. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Your wife was aware that this was a regular\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> For a number of years, she was aware of my struggles. And I\u2019d go periods\u2014you know\u2014of being sober; but then, I\u2019d relapse. It was a nightmare. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Did she never come to you and say, \u201cLook!\u201d\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Oh, yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cEnough is enough. Either you fix this thing\u201d\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> She didn\u2019t come to me like that, but she asked the question\u2014we were on our knees together. She could tell you that she felt guilty herself: \u201cShouldn\u2019t I go tell the elders? Lord, are we doing the right thing?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut we were a part of the same accountability structure. The same accountability group was saying to her: \u201cYou guys are working on this. Tom\u2019s working on this. You guys do really great ministry. Tom will be a better preacher, a better pastor, when he gets to the other side of sustained sobriety. So, keep going.\u201d I mean\u2014each phase, each time\u2014\u2014we kept asking that question\u2014the word that came back to us was: \u201cKeep going. Take the next step.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Bob:<\/strong> If you were in the accountability group, for a guy like you today, would you give the same counsel that your accountability group was giving you? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Yes, I would; and I\u2019ll tell you why. Because there really was, in my particular trajectory, this hidden little, weird piece from my mother and the way ministry insulated it. I did have to blow up\u2014but I had to blow up in a certain way\u2014and I wrote about this in the book\u2014for that to become detectable. And another piece of that was my mother needed to be gone, unfortunately. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt\u2019s complicated. I\u2019m not trying to make excuses, and it\u2019s really important\u2014and you know this from the tenor of the book\u2014the way I write the book. I don\u2019t write this with any sense of: \u201cWell, my problems are somebody else\u2019s,\u201d or, \u201cIt\u2019s my parents\u2026\u201d or, \u201cIt\u2019s my upbringing.\u201d No, my sins are my sins. It\u2019s my responsibility, and my recovery is my responsibility. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I liked the way you handled that. When you did mention, ever so slightly\u2014you didn\u2019t really reveal, in the book, what took place\u2014but you grew up in a home where your dad suffered from Asperger\u2019s Syndrome? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> That\u2019s\u2014it wasn\u2019t diagnosed then; but that\u2019s what we would say now. Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> A mild form of that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> He really lacked social skills and emotional closeness. He was just a very vacant person. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Your mom, on the other hand, struggled from an emotional disorder. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Yes, she was bipolar. She was an unhappy person. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And a part of the dark side, that marked you, involved her; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Yes. Yes. She had deep needs that were never met. She lived a terribly unhappy life\u2014and too much of the responsibility for her emotional well-being\u2014I think, put on me. Again, I don\u2019t say that to say, \u201cWell, then, it\u2019s not my fault,\u201d or, \u201cIt\u2019s not my responsibility.\u201d Of course, it\u2019s my responsibility. My life is my life. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut for some of us\u2014and for some who are listeners\u2014pulling apart some of that history is going to be important. The more intelligent a person is, the harder it is to deal with this addiction. Sounds counter-intuitive, but it\u2019s not because we need to understand. We have to know why. That leads us to the place where\u2014and not all Christians want to hear this\u2014but sometimes, it\u2019s okay\u2014sometimes, it\u2019s even going to be necessary to have a trained professional help us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Or to have a train wreck. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> You\u2019re going to have one or the other. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Which is what wound up happening\u2014you had a trained professional helping you. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Yes, and I still had a train wreck. In retrospect, I had the lightest, easiest train wreck you could have. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Tell us what took you to the park on that day in 2008. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> I was just in a bad\u2014I had been coming apart for several years. I was really losing my edge\u2014my ability to hold a lot of things together, to perform, and to make life work. I was cycling more and more with depression, and anxiety, emptiness. We had gone through several transitions at the church. The church was doing relatively well; but I was just coming apart, trying to keep it all together. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHad a meeting cancel\u2014I knew this park where men exchanged porn. I\u2019d put Covenant Eyes on my laptop, years before, so that had locked me out from internet porn; but when you\u2019re a drunk, you\u2019ll go drink the radiator fluid if you have to when you\u2019re wanting the buzz. So, I thought I\u2019d go out to this park; and I got arrested. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Well, before you get to the arrest, explain to me this whole concept of men going to a park to exchange porn. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Well, not every park has this feature; and not every place where men gather do they exchange porn. This is just one of the wrinkles. I\u2019d been around recovery circles enough that you hear stories about this happening and other things. So, I knew about this particular park\u2014there were just a few guys who had print porn\u2014and they liked to swap it. That was a simple story on this particular park. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> So, it was a place you could go to get something in print? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Yes. My understanding is there\u2019s not a lot of that going on anymore. Now, I haven\u2019t been back since April 17<sup>th<\/sup> of 2008. I haven\u2019t been to any park, doing this, since April 2008. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> It seems to me that it\u2019s just a click away today. You don\u2019t have to go anywhere. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Tom:<\/strong> Exactly. That\u2019s my understanding. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> So, April 17, 2008, you go, \u201cI\u2019m just going to go down there.\u201d You needed something. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> I needed a buzz. I needed something. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> I needed to just fill the hours. I needed to distract myself. You can numb-out and dumb-out with compulsive, sexual thinking, a myriad of ways\u2014just distract yourself\u2014just waste time, just get away, just stop thinking, stop feeling, just numb-out. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> So, what happened? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Well, what happened was\u2014I, actually, was accused of something that I didn\u2019t particularly do. It\u2019s not important because, as far as I\u2019m concerned, relapsing is relapsing. So, I\u2019m guilty of all of it; right? And there was an accusation\u2014a phone call made to the police\u2014I got arrested. I was so ashamed when the squad car pulled up. You know, I\u2019m a pastor\u2014a great church. You know, I\u2019m relapsing, I\u2019m struggling, and I\u2019m worn out. I\u2019m emotionally-fatigued, spiritually-empty. I\u2019m, at that point now, where I\u2019ve lost hope, Dennis. I have not lost <em>faith<\/em>\u2014still believe in God, believe in His Christ, believed in the truths of the Gospel\u2014but I lost hope. There was something about <em>me <\/em>that was so deficient that God wasn\u2019t reaching through. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd just before this had actually happened, in the park, I was, outside of my car, sitting on a log. I prayed, \u201cGod in heaven, I cannot believe I\u2019m in this place again! I cannot believe I\u2019m relapsing. I cannot believe I\u2019m in this park. I don\u2019t care what You have to do. You have to do something. <em>Please<\/em> break this in my life.\u201d Now, that wasn\u2019t the <em>first<\/em> time I\u2019d prayed that prayer; but it was the last time. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> God answered it that day. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> He did answer it\u2014not the way I would wish, I suppose. But I have to be honest, looking\u2014I\u2019m still somewhat ashamed I got arrested. I mean, who\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Who wouldn\u2019t be; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> \u2014likes that idea. And I spent\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Of course. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> \u2014and it wasn\u2019t two hours, like the officer told me. It was twenty-six hours, and it was overnight. My depression hit rock bottom. I mean, I was put in a cell by myself; and I started thinking about how I could take the exit ramp. I had a strategy. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> You\u2019re speaking of suicide? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> I am, and I was ready to go there. Except that, as a pastor, I\u2019d buried suicides. I ministered to their families, and I saw their faces. The Holy Spirit put my kids\u2019 faces and my wife\u2019s face on the faces of those grieving ones left behind to say: \u201cWhy? What didn\u2019t we see? What could we have done differently? Why?\u201d I thought, \u201cOkay, that\u2019s the one thing left to me that I can do that\u2019ll make this worse,\u201d because I was sure this was going to be in the papers\u2014I\u2019m sure this is going to come out. It never did come out. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Really? It was not in the papers? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> It wasn\u2019t in the papers, no. <br><br><strong>Bob:<\/strong> Pam comes and picks you up from jail? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> She does, the next day. That was a terrible afternoon and a terrible period for both of us. We both knew our marriage was over, at that point, because she\u2019d been with me through these cycles. I was going to resign ministry. We thought it\u2019d be out in the paper. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen I called her on my one call, she called my therapist, she called my sponsor, and she called my friend, Joe. Joe began to pray, \u201cLord, would You please keep this from the papers to protect the church\u2014protect the Ryan kids?\u201d The Lord did. It didn\u2019t come out in the papers. I resigned the next board meeting\u2014it was ten days later. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Did you tell them what had happened? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> No, I said to them\u2014again, I was guided by accountability\u2014my accountability circle said: \u201cGod hasn\u2019t brought it out in the papers and in the public. Don\u2019t you trump Him! Don\u2019t you do that yourself. You need to get out. It\u2019s time. Yes, take the next step of therapy. Get out of the ministry. Tell them you\u2019ve got to leave.\u201d <br><br>So, what I said to them was literally this\u2014and I think this is verbatim\u2014\u201cI\u2019m engaging in self-destructive behaviors. You guys know I\u2019ve been in therapy and struggling with anxiety and depression. I\u2019ve got childhood issues I can\u2019t resolve. I\u2019m engaging in self-destructive behaviors. They\u2019re going to take me down, and they\u2019re going to hurt the church if I don\u2019t leave. I have to leave.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe board never asked, \u201cWell, what are your self-destructive behaviors?\u201d You know, again, there was a level of transparency in my preaching that they got the fact that I was struggling and that I had an element of brokenness in my life that was pretty severe. They got that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> They try to talk you out of it? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> They did. They said, \u201cWould you like a sabbatical\u2014how about a sabbatical?\u201d \u201cNo, I\u2019m leaving ministry;\u201d because as far as I was concerned, my marriage was over\u2014ministry was over. I had blown up everything\u2014destroyed life, as I knew it. I wasn\u2019t sure I was going to be able to continue on. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Did you and Pam talk about a divorce after you left\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014the jail cell that day? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Yes. My wife has uncommon common sense. One of the things she realized was that, \u201cIf we divorce right now, everybody will know that.\u201d I mean, Kansas City is not a big town. Then, the questions will flood in as to why. She was very sensitive to the church. She loved the church\u2014cared about the people of the church. \u201cEventually, in God\u2019s time, we\u2019ll handle this.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe other piece of wisdom that Pam operated with was, \u201cUnless you\u2019re absolutely in crisis in a moment\u2014in fact, in crisis isn\u2019t a good time to make radical decisions\u2014but unless it\u2019s a life-preserving crisis, a life-threatening crisis\u2014no decision has to be made immediately.\u201d You know? None of the kids were in the house. We separated within the house. She would bide her time and wait for the Lord to lead in a clear path that would make sense. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> How long did that separation\u2014that physical separation\u2014occur? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Was it weeks? Was it months\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Oh, it was months. It was a long time! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014while you were processing with your accountability partner, with your counselor? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Yes, my therapist. See, what happened with me was I had to unplug the acting-out life. Well, when I got arrested, that unplugged\u2014when somebody, who\u2019s compulsive, gets a shock to the system, the addictive personality kind of goes into a little bit of a coma. It just\u2014it\u2019s like a bad little boy that slinks behind the sofa in the living room and says, \u201cI better stay out of sight.\u201d Mine did for a lot of months because getting arrested will do that. It did for me. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br>I left ministry which, as we would find out, was a real insulating covering because every time I did competent ministry\u2014and I did a lot of it by God\u2019s grace, mercy, and call\u2014every time I did this ministry\u2014it was, unfortunately, both hiding the provocation of my compulsive behavior and my disease and fueling it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Compulsive guys I\u2019ve talked to\u2014when something like that happens, there is a prolonged period before they drift back\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014but they eventually drift back. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Often; often. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You didn\u2019t. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> I didn\u2019t. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Haven\u2019t. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Haven\u2019t\u2014yes, exactly, because I\u2019m maintaining. You know the big book of AA is prescient wisdom, I think. It says, \u201cIn recovery, what we\u2019re basically granted is a reprieve, based upon the daily maintenance of a spiritual condition.\u201d Well, guys, that\u2019s the Christian life! We are granted a reprieve of who you would be, apart from Christ\u2014of where our sins would normally take us\u2014and our sin nature\u2014of the consequences of our sin and judgment. We\u2019re basically granted a reprieve. <br><br>So, for me, what happened was\u2014in the plugging-in of this therapy, during this vacuum period\u2014we were able to pull apart some of the subterranean pathways, if you will, in my soul\u2014and start to develop better and healthier ones\u2014and cobble together a different way of thinking, a different way of living. Because I had an advance of the addictive provocation in my soul, it worked for me. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br>Now, in a different way, but in a similar way\u2014everybody that\u2019s compulsive\u2014needs to do something along those lines because we do tend to drift back. This becomes our default status until we develop a more preferential one. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And you still have a whole congregation of people going, \u201cWhat happened?\u201d Speculation\u2019s got to be running wild\u2014people coming up to you going, \u201cTom, what gives? What did you\u2014\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Well, they didn\u2019t actually. Isn\u2019t that stunning? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Really?! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Yes. Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You just\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> The board asked me to stay three months. Again, there was a level of transparency. I mean, there were some Sundays when Pam came home and said\u2014because we had a ton of recovery alcoholics in our church. We had the second largest AA Chapter, in the state of Kansas, in our church. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tShe said: \u201cThere are so many recovering people. They\u2019ve got to know you\u2019re an addict. They\u2019re probably guessing it is sex because you don\u2019t manifest what drug or alcohol addiction would manifest\u201d\u2014and because of things that I would say in terms of talking about my own brokenness. So, people got brokenness. I think what they figured was that it was a massive burn-out, and I was just flamed-out. I think that\u2019s what\u2014and I know that\u2019s what some of them thought. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob<\/strong>: And you go to work at Domino\u2019s or what did you do? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> No, I had severance for about seven months, for which I am grateful. At that point, a really good friend from Pastor Serve, Jimmy Dodd, came alongside and cobbled together kind of a low-grade ministry to pastors. There were some faithful, loving people that supported that ministry through Pastor Serve. That\u2019s morphed into the Shame No More Project. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> What I want our listeners to hear and take away from this story, first of all, is that pornography is a predator\u2014preying upon us\u2014whether male or female. We used to think this was just an exclusive male problem; but it\u2019s not. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> No. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> One-third of the users of pornography on the internet are women. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Secondly, we need to realize that we are the prey; and we need to be on-guard about this. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> When we\u2019re travelling alone, we need to be careful about channel surfing.\u00a0 When we\u2019re on our computer, it needs to be in a public place. We need to be honest and truthful with our spouse about what\u2019s taking place in our lives. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd then, thirdly, our children\u2014I\u2019d love to say, \u201c\u2026need to be protected,\u201d and wishfully, hopefully, I\u2019d like to think that my grandkids would never experience this\u2014but that\u2019s not the lay of the land today. The nature of pornography, being so predatory today, is it\u2019s going to find a way to weasel into your children and your grandchildren\u2019s lives. So, as parents, we have to develop a relationship that is safe\u2014that doesn\u2019t condemn.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And as you\u2019ve been talking, Tom, the passage in Romans 8, which you talk about in your book, has just been echoing in my mind. Romans 8:1, which says, \u201cThere is, therefore, now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Absolutely. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Jesus Christ offers the forgiveness that the soul longs for, and it\u2019s the solution to the shame that you talk about in your book. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And I appreciate the fact that you provide the steps that you took\u2014the steps that led you from bondage to liberation\u2014they\u2019re in your book which is called<em> Ashamed No More<\/em>. And we have copies of the book available in our <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Resource Center. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com for more information about Tom\u2019s book. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThere is also information about other books\u2014available for wives of men who have struggled with sexually-compulsive behavior\u2014to help wives understand how you can process and deal with and support your husband in his journey to liberation, as well. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tGo to FamilyLifeToday.com for more information; or call us if you need any help at 1-800-FL-TODAY, 1-800-358-6329. That\u2019s 1-800- \u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then, the word, \u201cTODAY\u201d. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to take just a minute to say, \u201cThanks,\u201d to those of you who make the ministry of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> possible\u2014those of you who share our concern about issues facing marriages and families and want to see strong, healthy, godly families emerging in our culture, starting at your house, and spreading out from there. We appreciate your partnership with us and your financial support of this ministry. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIn fact, this week, if you can make a donation to help support <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, we would like to say, \u201cThank you,\u201d by making available a CD that has a conversation on it that we had with Dr. Ed Welch from the Christian Counseling and Education Foundation about the issue of addiction\u2014whether it\u2019s the kind of compulsive behavior we\u2019ve been talking about today or whether it\u2019s addiction to alcohol, or drugs, or other substances. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAt the core, Dr. Welch says, \u201cAddiction is ultimately a worship disorder.\u201d We talk more about that on this audio CD. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe\u2019d love to send the CD to you as our way of saying, \u201cThank you for your financial support of the ministry of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\u201d All you have to do is go to FamilyLifeToday.com. Click the button that says, \u201cI CARE\u201d, and make an online donation; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY. Make your donation over the phone, and just ask for the CD on addictions. We\u2019ll be happy to send it to you, and we do appreciate your support of this ministry. It\u2019s always great to hear from you. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd we hope you can be back with us tomorrow. We\u2019ll introduce you to a woman who was preyed upon, sexually, and was harassed by one of her high school teachers. You\u2019ll hear Lisa Troyer\u2019s story tomorrow. Hope you can be with us for that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you.\u00a0 However, there is a cost to produce them for our website.\u00a0 If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2013 FamilyLife.\u00a0 All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\t1\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>","theme_header_position":"","post_header_is_sticky":"","is_header_overlay":""},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/302713","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/91"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=302713"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/294104"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=302713"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=302713"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=302713"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=302713"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=302713"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=302713"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}