{"id":302712,"date":"2013-04-10T11:00:00","date_gmt":"2013-04-10T15:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/taking-steps-to-wholeness\/"},"modified":"2013-04-10T11:00:00","modified_gmt":"2013-04-10T15:00:00","slug":"taking-steps-to-wholeness","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/taking-steps-to-wholeness\/","title":{"rendered":"Taking Steps to Wholeness"},"content":{"rendered":"","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Former pastor Tom Ryan tells of his descent into the world of sexual addiction.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2013-04-10.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:","filesize":"21.98M","filesize_raw":"23046658","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2844],"tags":[2872,2989,2487],"podcast_series":[7939],"cwp_profile":[9296],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-302712","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-pornography","tag-addiction","tag-pornography","tag-sexual-addiction","podcast_series-ashamed-no-more","cwp_profile-tom-ryan","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/302712\/taking-steps-to-wholeness","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/302712\/taking-steps-to-wholeness","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"Dg0NHApLX4\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/taking-steps-to-wholeness\/\">Taking Steps to Wholeness<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/taking-steps-to-wholeness\/embed\/#?secret=Dg0NHApLX4\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Taking Steps to Wholeness&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"Dg0NHApLX4\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2013-04-10.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2013-04-10.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Sexual sin has become more and more commonplace, certainly, in our culture; but Tom Ryan says, \u201cIt\u2019s becoming more commonplace in our churches, as well.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> If you\u2019ve got a compulsive problem\u2014and a lot of guys do\u2014a lot of guys in the Church do\u2014you need to be cultivating those roads of extricating yourself, and developing a healthy lifestyle with your sexuality, and getting to a place of integrity that is really God-honoring, and Christ-centered, and Spirit-infused, and that you are getting somewhere\u2014but the issue is willingness\u2014 \u201cAm I willing to do whatever is necessary to follow Jesus, to take the next steps?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Wednesday, April 10<sup>th<\/sup>. Our host is the President of FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, Dennis Rainey, and I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We\u2019ll talk today about what steps a man can take to be free from the bondage and the shame associated with sexual sin. Stay tuned. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. You know I remember\u2014and this was a long time ago\u2014but I remember Promise Keepers<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> had a convention for pastors, back\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Oh, yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014in the \u201890\u2019s. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And I remember they had polled guys at one of their big Promise Keepers conventions. They polled them and asked them, \u201cHow many of you guys have looked at pornography in the last 30 days?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I think I was at one. The Georgia Dome had 40,000 guys at it\u2014pastors and guys in the ministry. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob<\/strong>: Well, initially, they just asked guys who had come to a Promise Keepers event, \u201cHow many of you guys have looked at pornography?\u201d It was six out of ten of the guys at a PK event who had viewed pornography in the last 30 days. Then, when they had this event in the Georgia Dome\u2014that you are talking about\u2014they asked pastors the same question. Do you remember what the number was? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I don\u2019t, but\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> What would you guess the number was? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Well, I\u2019ve heard the number 50 percent. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes. I think the guys there said\u2014I think it was 30 percent of them said, \u201cIn the last 30 days, I\u2019ve looked at porn.\u201d But how many of our listeners would imagine\u2014think about your pastor\u2014how many of you would think, \u201cI bet my pastor, in the last 30 days, has looked at pornography.\u201d I\u2019m guessing most people would look at their pastor and go, \u201cMaybe some other pastor, but not my guy.\u201d Don\u2019t you think? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I think, for the most part, the Church is clueless about the battles that pastors\u2014men and women in the ministry\u2014face today. That\u2019s what we\u2019re going to talk about. And it\u2019s not just what pastors face\u2014but also what every man and a lot of women are facing today, as well. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTo join us, on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, to do that, is Tom Ryan, a former pastor for more than 20 years. Tom, welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Thank you, Dennis. It\u2019s good to be here. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Tom is, unfortunately, a Royals fan from Kansas City. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> This is where we start\u2014I knew you\u2019d start with this. [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And he and his wife Pam have been married since \u201978. I\u2019m sure she\u2019s a Royals fan, as well. They have four children who, I\u2019m sure, probably root for the Royals. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> The Royals, absolutely. Go Royals! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Yes; and he has written a book, <em>Ashamed No More<\/em>. Now, I\u2019m not assuming\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Has nothing to do with the Royals. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Yes, exactly. [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Sex addiction is one thing; but being a Royals\u2019 fan is something I don\u2019t like to talk about. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And I apologize to all of our friends on the BOTT Radio Network, in the Midwest, who are all Royals\u2019 fans. Unfortunately, you listen daily to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>; and Bob Lepine and I are both Cardinal fans. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Well, of course, the BOTT Radio Network is on in St. Louis, too. So, they can kind of get happy\u2014either way, it works. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> They can. Tom, you, as I mentioned, were a pastor for 20 years. Did you ever have anyone come up to you and ask you, \u201cHey, do you struggle with something or with anything\u2014with an addiction or with pornography?\u201d Did anybody ever broach that subject with you, as a pastor? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> No, nobody ever asked that. Now, the thing was\u2014in my preaching, I would be open enough about my own sense of brokenness. The people\u2014my people knew I was struggling with stuff. A lot of them knew I was in therapy and all of that kind of thing; but nobody asked specifically, \u201cHey, is porn your problem?\u201d or, \u201cIs sexual brokenness something that\u2019s a part of your story?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Did you have guys come up to you and say: \u201cHey, I\u2019m struggling with this. What do I do?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> I did. I did have that happen. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And when that happened, as a pastor, what did you do? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Oh, it was horrible for me because I felt so guilty and ashamed. Here I was, struggling in secrecy with this issue. Then, they\u2019re asking for help. \u201cWhat do I tell them?\u201d Well, I knew enough about recovery, once I started dealing with this\u2014that I would send them in the right direction and send them for help\u2014but it left me feeling very empty, and very hypocritical, and very ashamed. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Let\u2019s go back to where this all got started for you because it got started long before you felt any call to ministry; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Right; absolutely. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Yes, in fact, the average age, today\u2014not back when you were a boy\u2014but the average age is somewhere between ages 8 and 11, for our children to be exposed to pornography. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Was that the case for you? Was it that early? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> No, it was a little bit later than that. And it wasn\u2019t pornography. It was more mundane. But it was sexual arousal as I grew into early adolescence, and noticed girls, and stumbled into, as most boys do\u2014a lot of children do\u2014self-exploration, self-gratification. It was that ability to fantasize and create a world\u2014a fantasy where I was in charge\u2014that tripped a wire. I didn\u2019t know that was happening, of course. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tLooking back, what I\u2019ve learned is\u2014that in a landscape, that was, emotionally, pretty bleak\u2014I learned how to elevate my moods or bring them down, how to regulate my emotions, how to make myself feel better\u2014make life work for me\u2014by using the brain chemicals, the stimulation\u2014a natural God-given gifts of sexuality in an ungodly kind of way. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob<\/strong>: It was a mood-altering drug for you, basically. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Absolutely. Of course, back then, we didn\u2019t know that language. We\u2019re learning that now about the biochemistry, neurochemistry\u2014of how sex arousal and how sex addiction works. So, it was mood-altering. Yes, exactly. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Had either your father or mother had a healthy discussion or an on-going discussion around \u201cthe birds and the bees\u201d and what happens to a boy as he grows into adolescence? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> No. That wasn\u2019t something we talked about. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Zero? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Zero; zilch. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> So, I have to ask, \u201cWhere did your understanding of sexuality come from\u2014if it wasn\u2019t from Mom and Dad?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> It came very clumsily. It came from friends and, then, what I started to pick up. I\u2019m grateful I did not grow up in the Internet Age because\u2014heaven help me\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Oh, yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> \u2014I don\u2019t know what would have happened with somebody, like me, back in those days; but a lot of our children are growing up with that, right now. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And I just have to put in a good word, here, for our resource, <em>Passport2Purity<\/em><sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, which is a weekend getaway for fathers\/sons, mothers\/daughters around 10, 11, 12, years of age, where a father and his son get away on a Friday night\/Saturday. This kit actually explains to you how you can go through and experience some CD\u2019s that explain it all to your child, in your presence, and gives you the opportunity, as a parent, to interact with your child and <u>begin<\/u>\u2014I want to underline that word\u2014and <u>begin<\/u> a conversation with your son or with your daughter that you can have all the way through adolescence and on into adulthood. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br>The reason I mention that is we have a number of listeners, right now, who are hearing the beginning of your story\u2014they haven\u2019t heard, really, the dark side of it yet. We can be on the offense. We don\u2019t have to play defense with our children or leave them to play defense and to sort through all the messaging that\u2019s coming their way. I mean, I did some research, before we came in the studio: 12 percent of all websites are pornographic\u201412 percent. Over $56 billion spent on this industry\u2014more than NBC, CBS, and ABC combined. More than the NFL, Major League Baseball, and the NBA all combined. I mean, this is a major industry that is out to create an addiction with our sons and our daughters\u2014I might add. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Oh, it\u2019s both; absolutely! You\u2019re exactly right, Dennis. <br><br><strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And we, as parents\u2014we can\u2019t always keep our children from being exposed\u2014but we can give them some tools so they can begin to sort through what they see and how they process it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Well, and having something proactive like the <em>Passport2Purity<\/em> weekend is not a guarantee that your son or your daughter is not going to wander off; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Oh, no. In fact, they may have already seen something by the time you take them through. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> But the point is you can begin a dialogue. You can open conversation and maybe head off some things before they take a dark turn. Tom, in your case, the dark turn for you started to happen\u2014was it high school for you? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Oh, it was before that. Yes, absolutely. It was when I stumbled upon the whole idea of sexual arousal and how to harness that\u2014without thinking in those terms\u2014but how that made me feel and how that created an inner world in which I could be in charge. I could be safe, and I could feel the way I wanted to feel. And that started very early-on. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Bob:<\/strong> And where did that lead you? Tell us about the path that took you on. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Looking back, the path it took me on was compulsive behavior\u2014a compulsive use of something that, in many ways, is pretty normal. You know\u2014exploration, and trying to think through these things, and figuring out whom we are\u2014separating from our parents\u2014all of these are a part of growth and development. But with those of us who become compulsive, as adolescents, we stumble into a repetitive behavior that, then, becomes more life-giving than it\u2019s supposed to be. It becomes the primary attachment. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI mean, at the end of the day, I think sexual addiction is about a mal-attachment to our own sexuality. So, I stumbled into a relationship with my own sexuality, if you will\u2014a God-given gift, a great gift. It\u2019s good to be masculine. It\u2019s good to be feminine; but I stumbled into a misuse of it\u2014a mal-attachment to it that became compulsive. I became dependent upon that method of handling life. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> How did that affect relationships with girls, as you started to date in high school and beyond? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Well, Bob, this will shock you; but I was a total nerd. So, I didn\u2019t have good relationships with girls. So, I was\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> So, the fantasy world was where you lived? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Yes, exactly. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Didn\u2019t have real relationships\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014with real girls. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Right. I didn\u2019t have the type of personality and skill set that I was good at that, confident at that. So, this was even more enticing to me; or I was more set up for it, perhaps. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Well, you did eventually date because you got married and had four kids. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Yes, I did. [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> So, when you did start to engage with girls, did this mal-attachment have any impact on that relationship? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Well, one of the unusual things in my story\u2014because it isn\u2019t often the case with people that become compulsive, sexually\u2014is that I married a healthy person. We had a healthy relationship of intimacy. And I did confide in my wife, when we first married, about some of my struggles. She was terribly understanding. She was great! When I continued to struggle\u2014much to my own chagrin\u2014and I shared that with her, it was really, really hard. <br><br>Of course, being as highly-sensitive as I was\u2014in reading the room, reading other people\u2014and I saw her pain, I was all about avoiding my pain. I didn\u2019t want to encourage her pain anymore. So, that forced me, or I chose, to go even more hidden\u2014more inward. So, my thing was, \u201cGod and I have got to solve this.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> So, did you think\u2014as I think a lot of young men do, who are involved in compulsive sexual behavior, prior to marriage\u2014did you think, \u201cMarriage will cure this\u201d? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Well, I knew it would. You\u2019re absolutely right. That\u2019s what we all thought, in those days. I was part of the post-Jesus movement and all of that. We didn\u2019t talk about sexuality, really. We all kind of understood that everybody kind of had something going on\u2014but we didn\u2019t talk about it, which is a problem, looking back. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut then, there was that idea that, \u201cWhen you meet the right person, you get married, you start to have intimacy, then, that will take care of it.\u201d It did for a couple of months. So, when it came back, it was just so discouraging. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Why do you think\u2014looking back, why did it come back? Why didn\u2019t marital intimacy cure the issue for you? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Because marital intimacy took a place where it belonged in my soul, but it could not replace and undo the tracks that I\u2019d already laid. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Dennis:<\/strong> It couldn\u2019t compete with the fantasy. <br><br><strong>Tom:<\/strong> No, it couldn\u2019t compete with the fantasy. I had already developed\u2014and this is what happens to all of us who have a regular usage of porn or some other sexual activity\u2014where we\u2019re creating a regular stimulus and response in our souls. It creates a set of tracks. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI\u2019ll have guys say to me now: \u201cAm I ever going to get free of this? Can I ever live without this?\u201d \u201cYes, you can.\u201d It\u2019s a matter of developing new tracks and a new relationship with your sexuality\u2014putting up barriers to the old tracks and letting those atrophy. It takes time. It takes practice. It takes a regular work. You can, eventually, get to that place where you become free of the old tracks; but when I first married Pam, I didn\u2019t even realize what I had already set in motion, for several years. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Tom, I want to go back to a statement you made, just a few moments ago, about you telling Pam about your use of pornography. Did that occur while you were dating and engaged, about to be married, or did you wait until after you were married to tell her? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> I told her before we were married. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> You said that you told her <em>some<\/em>\u2014<em>some<\/em> of your problem\u2014but not all? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Not all; no. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And the reason was? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Nobody ever wants to tell all. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> You weren\u2019t sure the love that she had for you could sustain knowing what you might share with her, at that point? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Dennis\u2014that might have been it. It might have been self-preservation. I\u2019ll say this\u2014I\u2019ll say this word\u2014I said <em>most<\/em> of what was going on. I\u2019d have to really go back and think about what I was hiding; but I think there is that, within most of us\u2014we want ourselves to look good\u2014\u201cHere I am, being honest.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Level of shame involved, yes. Sure. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Oh, it was horrific. And she met me with great grace and understanding. That\u2019s what made me telling her later, \u201cI\u2019m still struggling with this,\u201d so crippling\u2014so hard. It just crushed her. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> So, there are two groups of guys listening to us right now\u2014single guys, who may be in a dating relationship. They\u2019re going, \u201cI don\u2019t know about this;\u201d \u2014and there is a second group of guys, who are already married\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014but haven\u2019t disclosed. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Speak to both groups of men and give them your very best counsel\u2014godly counsel from the Scriptures. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Well, to the fellows that are dating someone\u2014it depends on where you are in the trajectory of that relationship as to how much you should divulge\u2014but whether you are dating or whether you\u2019re married\u2014your partner or your potential partner isn\u2019t going to be your ultimate accountability person and isn\u2019t going to be, normally, the avenue through which the Savior is going to bring you out of this problem. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou need to be busy working and cultivating an honest relationship with several other close brothers and working your way through this problem. If you\u2019ve got a compulsive problem\u2014and a lot of guys do\u2014a lot of guys in the Church do\u2014you need to be cultivating those roads of extricating yourself, and developing a healthy lifestyle with your sexuality, and getting to a place of integrity\u2014that you really feel good about\u2014which is really God-honoring, and Christ-centered, and Spirit-infused, and that you\u2019re getting somewhere. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou can share with your person that you are dating when it\u2019s appropriate, depending on the level of the commitment\u2014the level of the relationship. Yes, that should come out. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> If this is headed toward marriage, you would say, \u201cYou\u2019d better have that talk.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> I think so. I admit I think that\u2019s just fair. I have two daughters. I would want them to know before they got into a relationship\u2014permanent relationship with somebody\u2014what they were getting into. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And if you haven\u2019t shared before marriage, and it\u2019s still an issue, do you have that talk with your wife, knowing what it\u2019s going to do to her? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Oh, that\u2019s a tough question; but yes, at some point, you do. Now, here\u2019s the great thing. I\u2019ve been a pastor for a long time. I still do spiritual direction and counseling. You really have to take the Lord\u2019s leading because the Lord really will lead in this area. The issue is willingness. \u201cAm I willing to do whatever is necessary to follow Jesus to take the next steps?\u201d Because with some relationships, it might be earlier\u2014with others, it might be later. There are other variables involved. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Bob:<\/strong> There\u2019s no formula here? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> There isn\u2019t a step or a formula. Every journey is a little bit different. The Lord loves story. He loves diversity. So, you\u2019ve got to have the people around you that you are working with\u2014whether it\u2019s a counselor, accountability group, brothers, et cetera\u2014\u2014and you\u2019re taking your steps toward wholeness. That\u2019s the essential piece. Then, in the appropriate place, the disclosure to the spouse comes in. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You had become a Christian during this time. How did your walk with Jesus impact your addiction\u2014your compulsion? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Well, I write about this, Bob, in <em>Ashamed No More<\/em>. It\u2019s a great question. Because I had always had\u2014I grew up, going to church. I had a God-consciousness\u2014but in the second grade, I remember watching a Billy Graham broadcast and praying the prayer\u2014several times being at youth camp, in the summers, having profound interactions with God. I really believed in God and got involved with a very evangelical youth ministry at a church that I would later be on the staff of. That was a very real, important part of my life\u2014deep encounters with the Holy Spirit. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThey didn\u2019t quite run on parallel tracks; but everybody who becomes compulsive develops a skillset of compartmentalizing. Now, as I\u2019ve said that, I think every human being has the capacity for compartmentalizing; and that\u2019s part of what healthy, spiritual transformation is. It\u2019s integrating every facet of our lives into the life of Christ\u2014life with Christ, life done following Christ\u2014life infused by the Spirit of Christ. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut I often say, \u201cAddicts are just like everybody else, just a little more so.\u201d Well, you know, as all of us can compartmentalize, addicts really specialize. I, actually, lettered in compartmentalization. So, I had my spiritual life over here and my sexual life over here. Now, the fact is that I always struggle with this. I wasn\u2019t able to shut it off. The guilt and the shamed stalked me, all the time. So, your question was, \u201cHow did it impact my faith\u2014impact this life of compulsive thinking and compulsive behaving?\u201d \u2014it warred against it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Did you just think, \u201cThis is just one of those things Jesus can\u2019t help me with\u201d? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> No, no. I always thought: \u201cThis is wrong, and I\u2019ve got to fix this. This is wrong, and I\u2019ve got to stop this.\u201d What I didn\u2019t know is that every time I would stumble and, then, I would feel so guilty and ashamed\u2014I would sincerely pray, \u201cGod, I promise You\u201d\u2014now, this is a young man, you understand\u2014\u201cI promise You I will never do that again!\u201d Bob, I meant that! What I didn\u2019t realize is that even though I was totally sincere\u2014I was kind of setting myself up for failure because I didn\u2019t have the tools to break that habit yet. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Tom:<\/strong> So, the next time I engaged, the shame was just a little more intense. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> So, ten years later, I\u2019m guessing you\u2019re not still praying that prayer. You\u2019re still feeling ashamed; but you\u2019ve given up on saying, \u201cI promise I\u2019ll never do that again.\u201d Haven\u2019t you? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Yes. Ten years later, I\u2019d given up on that particular prayer; but it morphed into something like: \u201cI have to change! I\u2019ve got to stop this. God, help me stop this. God, <em>please<\/em> help me stop this. Would You, please, help me stop this?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Didn\u2019t there come a point where you just thought, \u201cI guess this is going to be how I am forever\u201d? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> No, and I think\u2014I attribute that to faith. For me, personally\u2014and other brothers will have different stories\u2014and sisters will have different stories and approaches because we\u2019re all different\u2014but for me, no, it was never okay. It was, \u201cSomehow, this has to stop.\u201d That brought me, as I write in the book, to that final point of crisis. I hope it\u2019s the final point of crisis\u2014in 2008. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> The Scriptures had to inform your faith\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Oh, absolutely. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014that there is hope even for the most broken, most addicted, most dark person. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Yes; yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I listened to your answer. Your faith caused hope to be alive, but your faith had to have an object. The Scripture is all about redemption. It\u2019s all about broken people experiencing forgiveness, grace, wholeness, healing, and being restored in relationships. And all of those occurred in your relationship with Pam. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat\u2019s what I want our listeners to hear, whether they\u2019re struggling with pornography\u2014whether their spouse is, whether they are raising a son or a daughter who has been exposed\u2014it\u2019s why Christ came. It\u2019s why He died. It\u2019s why the Tomb is empty. He\u2019s alive today. He can touch lives. He can bring that healing in individual lives today. It doesn\u2019t mean you\u2019re not going to struggle. It does mean you are going to have the hope that He can make things new. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Absolutely. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And He can replace\u2014a smile\u2014where there is now doubt, and shame, and an addiction to darkness. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Bob:<\/strong> The name of the book, <em>Ashamed No More<\/em>. I thought to myself, the first time I saw the book, of Romans 8:1, \u201cThere is, therefore, now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.\u201d It doesn\u2019t mean that we can\u2019t commit heinous sin. It means that there is forgiveness, and restoration, and hope available to us, in Christ, as we walk in brokenness, repentance, and obedience. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd Tom shares his story in the book, <em>Ashamed No More<\/em>. We\u2019ve got copies of it in our <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Resource Center. You can go to FamilyLifeToday.com for more information about how to get a copy of the book. There are other resources available there, as well, including resources for wives who may be married to men who have struggled with sexual compulsion or addictive behaviors. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com for more information about all of these resources; or call us, toll-free, at 1-800- \u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then, the word, \u201cTODAY\u201d. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe had a conversation, a while back, with our friend, Dr. Ed Welch, who is with the Christian Counseling and Education Foundation, about compulsive, addictive behaviors. He wrote a workbook, called <em>At the Crossroads of Addiction<\/em>, that helps people understand that, ultimately, what we\u2019re dealing with is what he says is a worship disorder. And this week, we are making that conversation available to our listeners. If you can help support the ministry of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> with a donation of any amount, we\u2019d be happy to send you the CD of that conversation with Dr. Ed Welch. Again, go to FamilyLifeToday.com and click the button that says, \u201cI CARE\u201d, so you can make an online donation. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are listener-supported. Those donations are what make this program possible. So, if you can help us out, we\u2019d appreciate it. We\u2019d love to send you a copy of this CD; or if it\u2019s easier for you to call to make a donation, call 1-800-FL-TODAY. Make your donation over the phone. Ask for the CD on addictions, and we\u2019ll send that out to you. Again, let me just say, \u201cThanks for your part in supporting the ministry of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. We appreciate all that you do to make this program possible.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd we hope you can be back with us again tomorrow when we\u2019ll hear more from Tom Ryan about his struggling with sexual sin and about his ultimate liberation from that struggle. That comes up tomorrow. Hope you can be with us for that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2013 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\t1\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>"],"_seopress_titles_title":[""],"_seopress_titles_desc":[""],"_seopress_robots_index":[""],"duration":["00:"],"show_notes":[""],"_thumbnail_id":["294104"],"filesize":["21.98M"],"filesize_raw":["23046658"],"_uag_css_file_name":["uag-css-302712.css"],"_uag_js_file_name":["uag-js-302712.js"],"_uag_page_assets":["a:9:{s:3:\"css\";s:82560:\".wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-top svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-top .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-bottom svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-bottom 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pastor Tom Ryan tells of his descent into the world of sexual addiction.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2013-04-10.pdf","transcript_content":"<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Sexual sin has become more and more commonplace, certainly, in our culture; but Tom Ryan says, \u201cIt\u2019s becoming more commonplace in our churches, as well.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> If you\u2019ve got a compulsive problem\u2014and a lot of guys do\u2014a lot of guys in the Church do\u2014you need to be cultivating those roads of extricating yourself, and developing a healthy lifestyle with your sexuality, and getting to a place of integrity that is really God-honoring, and Christ-centered, and Spirit-infused, and that you are getting somewhere\u2014but the issue is willingness\u2014 \u201cAm I willing to do whatever is necessary to follow Jesus, to take the next steps?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Wednesday, April 10<sup>th<\/sup>. Our host is the President of FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, Dennis Rainey, and I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We\u2019ll talk today about what steps a man can take to be free from the bondage and the shame associated with sexual sin. Stay tuned. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. You know I remember\u2014and this was a long time ago\u2014but I remember Promise Keepers<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> had a convention for pastors, back\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Oh, yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014in the \u201890\u2019s. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And I remember they had polled guys at one of their big Promise Keepers conventions. They polled them and asked them, \u201cHow many of you guys have looked at pornography in the last 30 days?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I think I was at one. The Georgia Dome had 40,000 guys at it\u2014pastors and guys in the ministry. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob<\/strong>: Well, initially, they just asked guys who had come to a Promise Keepers event, \u201cHow many of you guys have looked at pornography?\u201d It was six out of ten of the guys at a PK event who had viewed pornography in the last 30 days. Then, when they had this event in the Georgia Dome\u2014that you are talking about\u2014they asked pastors the same question. Do you remember what the number was? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I don\u2019t, but\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> What would you guess the number was? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Well, I\u2019ve heard the number 50 percent. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes. I think the guys there said\u2014I think it was 30 percent of them said, \u201cIn the last 30 days, I\u2019ve looked at porn.\u201d But how many of our listeners would imagine\u2014think about your pastor\u2014how many of you would think, \u201cI bet my pastor, in the last 30 days, has looked at pornography.\u201d I\u2019m guessing most people would look at their pastor and go, \u201cMaybe some other pastor, but not my guy.\u201d Don\u2019t you think? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I think, for the most part, the Church is clueless about the battles that pastors\u2014men and women in the ministry\u2014face today. That\u2019s what we\u2019re going to talk about. And it\u2019s not just what pastors face\u2014but also what every man and a lot of women are facing today, as well. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTo join us, on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, to do that, is Tom Ryan, a former pastor for more than 20 years. Tom, welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Thank you, Dennis. It\u2019s good to be here. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Tom is, unfortunately, a Royals fan from Kansas City. [Laughter]\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> This is where we start\u2014I knew you\u2019d start with this. [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And he and his wife Pam have been married since \u201978. I\u2019m sure she\u2019s a Royals fan, as well. They have four children who, I\u2019m sure, probably root for the Royals. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> The Royals, absolutely. Go Royals! \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Yes; and he has written a book, <em>Ashamed No More<\/em>. Now, I\u2019m not assuming\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Has nothing to do with the Royals. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Yes, exactly. [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Sex addiction is one thing; but being a Royals\u2019 fan is something I don\u2019t like to talk about. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And I apologize to all of our friends on the BOTT Radio Network, in the Midwest, who are all Royals\u2019 fans. Unfortunately, you listen daily to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>; and Bob Lepine and I are both Cardinal fans. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Well, of course, the BOTT Radio Network is on in St. Louis, too. So, they can kind of get happy\u2014either way, it works. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> They can. Tom, you, as I mentioned, were a pastor for 20 years. Did you ever have anyone come up to you and ask you, \u201cHey, do you struggle with something or with anything\u2014with an addiction or with pornography?\u201d Did anybody ever broach that subject with you, as a pastor? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> No, nobody ever asked that. Now, the thing was\u2014in my preaching, I would be open enough about my own sense of brokenness. The people\u2014my people knew I was struggling with stuff. A lot of them knew I was in therapy and all of that kind of thing; but nobody asked specifically, \u201cHey, is porn your problem?\u201d or, \u201cIs sexual brokenness something that\u2019s a part of your story?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Did you have guys come up to you and say: \u201cHey, I\u2019m struggling with this. What do I do?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> I did. I did have that happen. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And when that happened, as a pastor, what did you do? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Oh, it was horrible for me because I felt so guilty and ashamed. Here I was, struggling in secrecy with this issue. Then, they\u2019re asking for help. \u201cWhat do I tell them?\u201d Well, I knew enough about recovery, once I started dealing with this\u2014that I would send them in the right direction and send them for help\u2014but it left me feeling very empty, and very hypocritical, and very ashamed. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Let\u2019s go back to where this all got started for you because it got started long before you felt any call to ministry; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Right; absolutely. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Yes, in fact, the average age, today\u2014not back when you were a boy\u2014but the average age is somewhere between ages 8 and 11, for our children to be exposed to pornography. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Was that the case for you? Was it that early? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> No, it was a little bit later than that. And it wasn\u2019t pornography. It was more mundane. But it was sexual arousal as I grew into early adolescence, and noticed girls, and stumbled into, as most boys do\u2014a lot of children do\u2014self-exploration, self-gratification. It was that ability to fantasize and create a world\u2014a fantasy where I was in charge\u2014that tripped a wire. I didn\u2019t know that was happening, of course. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tLooking back, what I\u2019ve learned is\u2014that in a landscape, that was, emotionally, pretty bleak\u2014I learned how to elevate my moods or bring them down, how to regulate my emotions, how to make myself feel better\u2014make life work for me\u2014by using the brain chemicals, the stimulation\u2014a natural God-given gifts of sexuality in an ungodly kind of way. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob<\/strong>: It was a mood-altering drug for you, basically. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Absolutely. Of course, back then, we didn\u2019t know that language. We\u2019re learning that now about the biochemistry, neurochemistry\u2014of how sex arousal and how sex addiction works. So, it was mood-altering. Yes, exactly. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Had either your father or mother had a healthy discussion or an on-going discussion around \u201cthe birds and the bees\u201d and what happens to a boy as he grows into adolescence? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> No. That wasn\u2019t something we talked about. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Zero? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Zero; zilch. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> So, I have to ask, \u201cWhere did your understanding of sexuality come from\u2014if it wasn\u2019t from Mom and Dad?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> It came very clumsily. It came from friends and, then, what I started to pick up. I\u2019m grateful I did not grow up in the Internet Age because\u2014heaven help me\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Oh, yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> \u2014I don\u2019t know what would have happened with somebody, like me, back in those days; but a lot of our children are growing up with that, right now. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And I just have to put in a good word, here, for our resource, <em>Passport2Purity<\/em><sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, which is a weekend getaway for fathers\/sons, mothers\/daughters around 10, 11, 12, years of age, where a father and his son get away on a Friday night\/Saturday. This kit actually explains to you how you can go through and experience some CD\u2019s that explain it all to your child, in your presence, and gives you the opportunity, as a parent, to interact with your child and <u>begin<\/u>\u2014I want to underline that word\u2014and <u>begin<\/u> a conversation with your son or with your daughter that you can have all the way through adolescence and on into adulthood. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br>The reason I mention that is we have a number of listeners, right now, who are hearing the beginning of your story\u2014they haven\u2019t heard, really, the dark side of it yet. We can be on the offense. We don\u2019t have to play defense with our children or leave them to play defense and to sort through all the messaging that\u2019s coming their way. I mean, I did some research, before we came in the studio: 12 percent of all websites are pornographic\u201412 percent. Over $56 billion spent on this industry\u2014more than NBC, CBS, and ABC combined. More than the NFL, Major League Baseball, and the NBA all combined. I mean, this is a major industry that is out to create an addiction with our sons and our daughters\u2014I might add. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Oh, it\u2019s both; absolutely! You\u2019re exactly right, Dennis. <br><br><strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And we, as parents\u2014we can\u2019t always keep our children from being exposed\u2014but we can give them some tools so they can begin to sort through what they see and how they process it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Well, and having something proactive like the <em>Passport2Purity<\/em> weekend is not a guarantee that your son or your daughter is not going to wander off; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Oh, no. In fact, they may have already seen something by the time you take them through. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> But the point is you can begin a dialogue. You can open conversation and maybe head off some things before they take a dark turn. Tom, in your case, the dark turn for you started to happen\u2014was it high school for you? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Oh, it was before that. Yes, absolutely. It was when I stumbled upon the whole idea of sexual arousal and how to harness that\u2014without thinking in those terms\u2014but how that made me feel and how that created an inner world in which I could be in charge. I could be safe, and I could feel the way I wanted to feel. And that started very early-on. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Bob:<\/strong> And where did that lead you? Tell us about the path that took you on. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Looking back, the path it took me on was compulsive behavior\u2014a compulsive use of something that, in many ways, is pretty normal. You know\u2014exploration, and trying to think through these things, and figuring out whom we are\u2014separating from our parents\u2014all of these are a part of growth and development. But with those of us who become compulsive, as adolescents, we stumble into a repetitive behavior that, then, becomes more life-giving than it\u2019s supposed to be. It becomes the primary attachment. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI mean, at the end of the day, I think sexual addiction is about a mal-attachment to our own sexuality. So, I stumbled into a relationship with my own sexuality, if you will\u2014a God-given gift, a great gift. It\u2019s good to be masculine. It\u2019s good to be feminine; but I stumbled into a misuse of it\u2014a mal-attachment to it that became compulsive. I became dependent upon that method of handling life. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> How did that affect relationships with girls, as you started to date in high school and beyond? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Well, Bob, this will shock you; but I was a total nerd. So, I didn\u2019t have good relationships with girls. So, I was\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> So, the fantasy world was where you lived? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Yes, exactly. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Didn\u2019t have real relationships\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014with real girls. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Right. I didn\u2019t have the type of personality and skill set that I was good at that, confident at that. So, this was even more enticing to me; or I was more set up for it, perhaps. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Well, you did eventually date because you got married and had four kids. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Yes, I did. [Laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> So, when you did start to engage with girls, did this mal-attachment have any impact on that relationship? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Well, one of the unusual things in my story\u2014because it isn\u2019t often the case with people that become compulsive, sexually\u2014is that I married a healthy person. We had a healthy relationship of intimacy. And I did confide in my wife, when we first married, about some of my struggles. She was terribly understanding. She was great! When I continued to struggle\u2014much to my own chagrin\u2014and I shared that with her, it was really, really hard. <br><br>Of course, being as highly-sensitive as I was\u2014in reading the room, reading other people\u2014and I saw her pain, I was all about avoiding my pain. I didn\u2019t want to encourage her pain anymore. So, that forced me, or I chose, to go even more hidden\u2014more inward. So, my thing was, \u201cGod and I have got to solve this.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> So, did you think\u2014as I think a lot of young men do, who are involved in compulsive sexual behavior, prior to marriage\u2014did you think, \u201cMarriage will cure this\u201d? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Well, I knew it would. You\u2019re absolutely right. That\u2019s what we all thought, in those days. I was part of the post-Jesus movement and all of that. We didn\u2019t talk about sexuality, really. We all kind of understood that everybody kind of had something going on\u2014but we didn\u2019t talk about it, which is a problem, looking back. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut then, there was that idea that, \u201cWhen you meet the right person, you get married, you start to have intimacy, then, that will take care of it.\u201d It did for a couple of months. So, when it came back, it was just so discouraging. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Why do you think\u2014looking back, why did it come back? Why didn\u2019t marital intimacy cure the issue for you? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Because marital intimacy took a place where it belonged in my soul, but it could not replace and undo the tracks that I\u2019d already laid. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Dennis:<\/strong> It couldn\u2019t compete with the fantasy. <br><br><strong>Tom:<\/strong> No, it couldn\u2019t compete with the fantasy. I had already developed\u2014and this is what happens to all of us who have a regular usage of porn or some other sexual activity\u2014where we\u2019re creating a regular stimulus and response in our souls. It creates a set of tracks. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI\u2019ll have guys say to me now: \u201cAm I ever going to get free of this? Can I ever live without this?\u201d \u201cYes, you can.\u201d It\u2019s a matter of developing new tracks and a new relationship with your sexuality\u2014putting up barriers to the old tracks and letting those atrophy. It takes time. It takes practice. It takes a regular work. You can, eventually, get to that place where you become free of the old tracks; but when I first married Pam, I didn\u2019t even realize what I had already set in motion, for several years. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Tom, I want to go back to a statement you made, just a few moments ago, about you telling Pam about your use of pornography. Did that occur while you were dating and engaged, about to be married, or did you wait until after you were married to tell her? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> I told her before we were married. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> You said that you told her <em>some<\/em>\u2014<em>some<\/em> of your problem\u2014but not all? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Not all; no. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And the reason was? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Nobody ever wants to tell all. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> You weren\u2019t sure the love that she had for you could sustain knowing what you might share with her, at that point? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Dennis\u2014that might have been it. It might have been self-preservation. I\u2019ll say this\u2014I\u2019ll say this word\u2014I said <em>most<\/em> of what was going on. I\u2019d have to really go back and think about what I was hiding; but I think there is that, within most of us\u2014we want ourselves to look good\u2014\u201cHere I am, being honest.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Level of shame involved, yes. Sure. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Oh, it was horrific. And she met me with great grace and understanding. That\u2019s what made me telling her later, \u201cI\u2019m still struggling with this,\u201d so crippling\u2014so hard. It just crushed her. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> So, there are two groups of guys listening to us right now\u2014single guys, who may be in a dating relationship. They\u2019re going, \u201cI don\u2019t know about this;\u201d \u2014and there is a second group of guys, who are already married\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014but haven\u2019t disclosed. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Speak to both groups of men and give them your very best counsel\u2014godly counsel from the Scriptures. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Well, to the fellows that are dating someone\u2014it depends on where you are in the trajectory of that relationship as to how much you should divulge\u2014but whether you are dating or whether you\u2019re married\u2014your partner or your potential partner isn\u2019t going to be your ultimate accountability person and isn\u2019t going to be, normally, the avenue through which the Savior is going to bring you out of this problem. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou need to be busy working and cultivating an honest relationship with several other close brothers and working your way through this problem. If you\u2019ve got a compulsive problem\u2014and a lot of guys do\u2014a lot of guys in the Church do\u2014you need to be cultivating those roads of extricating yourself, and developing a healthy lifestyle with your sexuality, and getting to a place of integrity\u2014that you really feel good about\u2014which is really God-honoring, and Christ-centered, and Spirit-infused, and that you\u2019re getting somewhere. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou can share with your person that you are dating when it\u2019s appropriate, depending on the level of the commitment\u2014the level of the relationship. Yes, that should come out. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> If this is headed toward marriage, you would say, \u201cYou\u2019d better have that talk.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> I think so. I admit I think that\u2019s just fair. I have two daughters. I would want them to know before they got into a relationship\u2014permanent relationship with somebody\u2014what they were getting into. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And if you haven\u2019t shared before marriage, and it\u2019s still an issue, do you have that talk with your wife, knowing what it\u2019s going to do to her? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Oh, that\u2019s a tough question; but yes, at some point, you do. Now, here\u2019s the great thing. I\u2019ve been a pastor for a long time. I still do spiritual direction and counseling. You really have to take the Lord\u2019s leading because the Lord really will lead in this area. The issue is willingness. \u201cAm I willing to do whatever is necessary to follow Jesus to take the next steps?\u201d Because with some relationships, it might be earlier\u2014with others, it might be later. There are other variables involved. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Bob:<\/strong> There\u2019s no formula here? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> There isn\u2019t a step or a formula. Every journey is a little bit different. The Lord loves story. He loves diversity. So, you\u2019ve got to have the people around you that you are working with\u2014whether it\u2019s a counselor, accountability group, brothers, et cetera\u2014\u2014and you\u2019re taking your steps toward wholeness. That\u2019s the essential piece. Then, in the appropriate place, the disclosure to the spouse comes in. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You had become a Christian during this time. How did your walk with Jesus impact your addiction\u2014your compulsion? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Well, I write about this, Bob, in <em>Ashamed No More<\/em>. It\u2019s a great question. Because I had always had\u2014I grew up, going to church. I had a God-consciousness\u2014but in the second grade, I remember watching a Billy Graham broadcast and praying the prayer\u2014several times being at youth camp, in the summers, having profound interactions with God. I really believed in God and got involved with a very evangelical youth ministry at a church that I would later be on the staff of. That was a very real, important part of my life\u2014deep encounters with the Holy Spirit. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThey didn\u2019t quite run on parallel tracks; but everybody who becomes compulsive develops a skillset of compartmentalizing. Now, as I\u2019ve said that, I think every human being has the capacity for compartmentalizing; and that\u2019s part of what healthy, spiritual transformation is. It\u2019s integrating every facet of our lives into the life of Christ\u2014life with Christ, life done following Christ\u2014life infused by the Spirit of Christ. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut I often say, \u201cAddicts are just like everybody else, just a little more so.\u201d Well, you know, as all of us can compartmentalize, addicts really specialize. I, actually, lettered in compartmentalization. So, I had my spiritual life over here and my sexual life over here. Now, the fact is that I always struggle with this. I wasn\u2019t able to shut it off. The guilt and the shamed stalked me, all the time. So, your question was, \u201cHow did it impact my faith\u2014impact this life of compulsive thinking and compulsive behaving?\u201d \u2014it warred against it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Did you just think, \u201cThis is just one of those things Jesus can\u2019t help me with\u201d? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> No, no. I always thought: \u201cThis is wrong, and I\u2019ve got to fix this. This is wrong, and I\u2019ve got to stop this.\u201d What I didn\u2019t know is that every time I would stumble and, then, I would feel so guilty and ashamed\u2014I would sincerely pray, \u201cGod, I promise You\u201d\u2014now, this is a young man, you understand\u2014\u201cI promise You I will never do that again!\u201d Bob, I meant that! What I didn\u2019t realize is that even though I was totally sincere\u2014I was kind of setting myself up for failure because I didn\u2019t have the tools to break that habit yet. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Tom:<\/strong> So, the next time I engaged, the shame was just a little more intense. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> So, ten years later, I\u2019m guessing you\u2019re not still praying that prayer. You\u2019re still feeling ashamed; but you\u2019ve given up on saying, \u201cI promise I\u2019ll never do that again.\u201d Haven\u2019t you? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Yes. Ten years later, I\u2019d given up on that particular prayer; but it morphed into something like: \u201cI have to change! I\u2019ve got to stop this. God, help me stop this. God, <em>please<\/em> help me stop this. Would You, please, help me stop this?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Didn\u2019t there come a point where you just thought, \u201cI guess this is going to be how I am forever\u201d? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> No, and I think\u2014I attribute that to faith. For me, personally\u2014and other brothers will have different stories\u2014and sisters will have different stories and approaches because we\u2019re all different\u2014but for me, no, it was never okay. It was, \u201cSomehow, this has to stop.\u201d That brought me, as I write in the book, to that final point of crisis. I hope it\u2019s the final point of crisis\u2014in 2008. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> The Scriptures had to inform your faith\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Oh, absolutely. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014that there is hope even for the most broken, most addicted, most dark person. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Yes; yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I listened to your answer. Your faith caused hope to be alive, but your faith had to have an object. The Scripture is all about redemption. It\u2019s all about broken people experiencing forgiveness, grace, wholeness, healing, and being restored in relationships. And all of those occurred in your relationship with Pam. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat\u2019s what I want our listeners to hear, whether they\u2019re struggling with pornography\u2014whether their spouse is, whether they are raising a son or a daughter who has been exposed\u2014it\u2019s why Christ came. It\u2019s why He died. It\u2019s why the Tomb is empty. He\u2019s alive today. He can touch lives. He can bring that healing in individual lives today. It doesn\u2019t mean you\u2019re not going to struggle. It does mean you are going to have the hope that He can make things new. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Tom:<\/strong> Absolutely. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And He can replace\u2014a smile\u2014where there is now doubt, and shame, and an addiction to darkness. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Bob:<\/strong> The name of the book, <em>Ashamed No More<\/em>. I thought to myself, the first time I saw the book, of Romans 8:1, \u201cThere is, therefore, now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.\u201d It doesn\u2019t mean that we can\u2019t commit heinous sin. It means that there is forgiveness, and restoration, and hope available to us, in Christ, as we walk in brokenness, repentance, and obedience. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd Tom shares his story in the book, <em>Ashamed No More<\/em>. We\u2019ve got copies of it in our <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Resource Center. You can go to FamilyLifeToday.com for more information about how to get a copy of the book. There are other resources available there, as well, including resources for wives who may be married to men who have struggled with sexual compulsion or addictive behaviors. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com for more information about all of these resources; or call us, toll-free, at 1-800- \u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then, the word, \u201cTODAY\u201d. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe had a conversation, a while back, with our friend, Dr. Ed Welch, who is with the Christian Counseling and Education Foundation, about compulsive, addictive behaviors. He wrote a workbook, called <em>At the Crossroads of Addiction<\/em>, that helps people understand that, ultimately, what we\u2019re dealing with is what he says is a worship disorder. And this week, we are making that conversation available to our listeners. If you can help support the ministry of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> with a donation of any amount, we\u2019d be happy to send you the CD of that conversation with Dr. Ed Welch. Again, go to FamilyLifeToday.com and click the button that says, \u201cI CARE\u201d, so you can make an online donation. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are listener-supported. Those donations are what make this program possible. So, if you can help us out, we\u2019d appreciate it. We\u2019d love to send you a copy of this CD; or if it\u2019s easier for you to call to make a donation, call 1-800-FL-TODAY. Make your donation over the phone. Ask for the CD on addictions, and we\u2019ll send that out to you. Again, let me just say, \u201cThanks for your part in supporting the ministry of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. We appreciate all that you do to make this program possible.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd we hope you can be back with us again tomorrow when we\u2019ll hear more from Tom Ryan about his struggling with sexual sin and about his ultimate liberation from that struggle. That comes up tomorrow. Hope you can be with us for that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2013 FamilyLife. 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