{"id":302629,"date":"2012-11-12T12:00:00","date_gmt":"2012-11-12T17:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/finding-your-story-in-the-bigger-story\/"},"modified":"2012-11-12T12:00:00","modified_gmt":"2012-11-12T17:00:00","slug":"finding-your-story-in-the-bigger-story","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/finding-your-story-in-the-bigger-story\/","title":{"rendered":"Finding Your Story in the Bigger Story"},"content":{"rendered":"","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>If suffering is so integral to human sanctification, why do we, as humans fear and avoid it?<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2012-11-12.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:","filesize":"23.59M","filesize_raw":"24733074","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2822],"tags":[4280,4584,2216],"podcast_series":[7911],"cwp_profile":[9167],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-302629","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-growing-in-your-faith","tag-death","tag-fear","tag-suffering","podcast_series-a-grace-revealed","cwp_profile-jerry-sittser","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/302629\/finding-your-story-in-the-bigger-story","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/302629\/finding-your-story-in-the-bigger-story","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"rakveKu4vD\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/finding-your-story-in-the-bigger-story\/\">Finding Your Story in the Bigger Story<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/finding-your-story-in-the-bigger-story\/embed\/#?secret=rakveKu4vD\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Finding Your Story in the Bigger Story&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"rakveKu4vD\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2012-11-12.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2012-11-12.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Are you looking for joy and purpose and meaning in life or a sense of fulfillment?\u00a0 Jerry Sittser says, \u201cIsn\u2019t everybody?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 I think there are all kinds of alternatives in our culture that are promising shortcuts to human happiness.\u00a0 One is alcohol; entertainment; maybe even drug addiction or something like that.\u00a0 Another one would be a quick job change; it could be a quick remarriage.\u00a0 They are so tempting.\u00a0 I mean, come on; they are very tempting to me.\u00a0 But I don\u2019t think in the long run they\u2019re going to deliver what they appear to promise.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Monday, November 12th.\u00a0 Our host is the President of FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.\u00a0 The pathway that gets you to joy and meaning and purpose is often a pathway that is clouded \u2013 shrouded in suffering.\u00a0 We\u2019re going to talk about that today.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today.<\/em><em>\u00a0 <\/em>Thanks for joining us.\u00a0 I\u2019ve had two things running through my head as I\u2019ve been thinking about our conversation today.\u00a0 The first is the old, I guess you\u2019d call it a gospel song, that says, \u201cCheer up my brothers, live in the sunshine; you\u2019ll understand it all by and by.\u201d\u00a0 (Laughter)\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd then the second thing is the Apostle Paul talking about mysteries:\u00a0 \u201cBehold, I tell you a mystery.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 When a mystery is told in the Bible, something you didn\u2019t understand before is all of the sudden made understandable.\u00a0 It\u2019s revealed.\u00a0 That\u2019s a little bit about where we\u2019re headed today, don\u2019t you think?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 It is.\u00a0 It really is.\u00a0 I\u2019m glad you didn\u2019t sing.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 You don\u2019t want to hear me?\u00a0 (Singing)\u00a0 \u201cCheer up my brothers, live in the sunshine; we\u2019ll understand it all by and by.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 Good little twang there.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Should I ask our guest if he can provide the harmony to that?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 A little \u201cName That Tune?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 I can do the latter.\u00a0 (Singing)\u00a0 \u201cBehold, I tell you a mystery!\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 That\u2019s the bass part on that one.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 Handel.\u00a0 (Laughter)\u00a0 Handel.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Well, that\u2019s the baritone voice of Jerry Sittser who joins us again on <em>FamilyLife Today.<\/em><em>\u00a0 <\/em>Jerry, welcome back.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 Thank you, Dennis.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 He\u2019s our friend from the Northwest.\u00a0 Jerry is Professor and Chair of Theology at Whitworth University in Spokane, Washington.\u00a0 He and his wife Patricia have five children, all grown.\u00a0 And Jerry is \u2013 well, he\u2019s known for a lot of things.\u00a0 Not only for teaching, but he\u2019s a great writer.\u00a0 His best-selling book is <em>A Grace Disguised.<\/em><em>\u00a0 <\/em>Now his newest book, that we\u2019re going to discuss today, is <em>A Grace Revealed.<\/em><em>\u00a0 <\/em>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI have to ask you, Jerry, all the way back to when you wrote <em>A Grace Disguised:<\/em><em>\u00a0 <\/em>How was it not revealed?\u00a0 What was taking place in your life that you would call it \u201ca grace disguised?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 Well, sometimes we go through experiences where God seems absent or God\u2019s plan for our lives seems cloudy, obscure, disguised, so to speak.\u00a0 I wrote that book in the wake of an experience where God seemed absent and His grace seemed very disguised.\u00a0 That was a drunken-driving accident, as you know.\u00a0 I\u2019ve talked about this before-- that took my mother, who was visiting for the weekend, and my wife Linda, and one of my children, Diana Jane, who was then four.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI survived the accident, along with my three other children:\u00a0 Katherine, who was then eight; David, who had just turned seven; and John, who was two at the time.\u00a0 In the wake of that accident, many things seemed very disguised.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 As a result, you were a single parent for 19 years.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 Nineteen years.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 And that grace was revealed in some very difficult days in your life \u2013 of how God met you as a single parent dad in raising those children, really, all the way to adulthood, right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 All the way to adulthood, right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Now you\u2019ve written this book, <em>A Grace Revealed, <\/em>which is really about two things.\u00a0 It\u2019s about story--a big story and a smaller story.\u00a0 And it\u2019s about the theme of redemption.\u00a0 I want you to explain to our listeners why you chose the method of telling a story as the way to explain the powerful theme of redemption.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 Largely it\u2019s because redemption takes place as a narrative, right?\u00a0 Redemption has movement to it.\u00a0 It\u2019s got life to it, vitality.\u00a0 Granted, we are redeemed through what Jesus Christ has already done for us.\u00a0 One of the leading verses or texts that I use in this book is from 2 Corinthians 5: 16 and 17:\u00a0 \u201cIf anyone is in Christ, that person is a new creation.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNotice the \u201cis\u201d \u2013 not \u201cis becoming,\u201d or \u201cmight be,\u201d or \u201chopes to be,\u201d but <em>is <\/em>a new creation.\u00a0 My identity in Jesus Christ and through what Jesus Christ has done for me is a new creation, but I don\u2019t always live like a new creation.\u00a0 So part of redemption is affirming <em>who <\/em>I am in Jesus Christ.\u00a0 Part of redemption also involves <em>becoming <\/em>like the person I already am <em>in <\/em>Jesus Christ.\u00a0 And that is narrative.\u00a0 That\u2019s story; that takes place over time and in a specific set of circumstances.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tFor me, it had to do with being widowed.\u00a0 It had to do with having three young children and raising those children in a way that was honoring to God.\u00a0 That takes place through story.\u00a0 So that was the reason I chose story as kind of the leading metaphor in the whole book.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut the other thing I wanted to do is affirm the relationship between my little story--\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 -- the story of Jerry and his three kids and our circumstances \u2013 living in Spokane, teaching at a university, having neighbors and friends and all the rest, you know?\u00a0 And how that little story of my life - which seemed so confusing to me for so many years \u2013 how that story really fits into and finds its meaning in the larger story of God\u2019s redemptive work in the world as we read about it, especially through the Bible.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 I want to go back to this idea of the new creature that you are and that you are becoming, because it\u2019s really both.\u00a0 It\u2019s who you are and who you are becoming.\u00a0 You saw a sculpture in Florence, Italy that was a great metaphor for you of what is going on with all of us, right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 It was.\u00a0 I mean, it was almost revelatory in a certain way.\u00a0 I visited Florence for a kind of late honeymoon with my first wife, Linda, way back in the \u201870s.\u00a0 We had Florence as one of our target cities \u2013 we knew there were great art galleries and cathedrals and all of the rest.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOne of the ones we wanted to go to was a gallery that displays this magnificent Michelangelo sculpture of <em>David<\/em>.\u00a0 Now, here\u2019s this towering figure \u2013 I mean, it\u2019s just amazing \u2013 looming over us.\u00a0 David stands there looking serene and confident; he\u2019s got a stone in his hand.\u00a0 He\u2019s got a sling he\u2019s holding over his shoulder.\u00a0 He\u2019s looking with a kind of steely gaze, probably at Goliath.\u00a0 Art historians don\u2019t know whether he had already killed Goliath or whether he was about to.\u00a0 When you look into his face, you realize that it doesn\u2019t matter.\u00a0 This man was in control.\u00a0 He knows he\u2019s going to win the battle.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut what I didn\u2019t know was that down one of the wings of this gallery are five sculptures that Michelangelo did that appear to be incomplete \u2013 but maybe not!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat they are, are sculptures of figures that are partly still encased in this marble \u201ctomb,\u201d you could say, I suppose.\u00a0 Part of them is done and, where they are completed, they are perfect.\u00a0 It could be a torso, an arm, part of a leg, a face, whatever.\u00a0 The rest of it is still in this marble encasement.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 I got curious, so I did some research on this and I realized that Michelangelo had this uncanny \u2013 almost supernatural \u2013 ability to see in the marble what he was going to sculpt, as if the figure already existed.\u00a0 So, unlike most sculptors, who first do a plaster cast of it and play with it and tweak it until it\u2019s where they want it to be, and then they take a big block of marble and they mark out on the marble how they\u2019re going to replicate that in something where you can\u2019t make mistakes, Michelangelo could just take a block of marble and start.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHe would begin to do his sculpting. He would bore in \u2013 usually in the mid-section \u2013 and where he would start to sculpt it would always be perfect, because he saw the figure even before he started.\u00a0 His goal was simply to remove everything that kept it from coming alive.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tMy argument is that we <em>are <\/em>new.\u00a0 God has made us that way through the perfect work of Jesus Christ.\u00a0 I ama new creation, period.\u00a0 I don\u2019t have to do anything.\u00a0 I don\u2019t contribute at all to God\u2019s finished work of who I am in Jesus Christ, but I still need to become who I am.\u00a0 I need to let that excess marble get chipped and sanded and ground away so I can emerge.\u00a0 When I emerge, I am only emerging to become what I already am.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 You almost said this a few moments ago.\u00a0 I think it was Michelangelo who said this.\u00a0 He said, \u201cAs the chips fall to the floor, the image emerges.\u201d\u00a0 What God is doing in our lives is He is chiseling and He\u2019s shaping.\u00a0 He knows what we are to become and He is shaping the image of Christ in our lives.\u00a0 Sometimes, as you know from the car wreck with the loss of your mother, your wife, and your daughter, the chips can fall off in some pretty good chunks, and it doesn\u2019t feel good at the time.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 It does not feel good.\u00a0 And it\u2019s not just painful, it\u2019s confusing.\u00a0 It\u2019s bewildering.\u00a0 It\u2019s interesting to note that one of the predominant emotions I had in the wake of that catastrophic experience was bewilderment.\u00a0 It\u2019s as if I experienced reality with a cocked head and with this question mark on my brow.\u00a0 I just didn\u2019t get it; it just seemed so strange to me.\u00a0 \u201cWhy did this happen?\u00a0 This is just stupid!\u00a0 It doesn\u2019t make any sense!\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo that bewilderment meant that God\u2019s grace was disguised.\u00a0 But now it\u2019s twenty years later and life begins to look a little bit different.\u00a0 You know, you begin to pick up narrative threads; you begin to make some sense of things.\u00a0 You begin to read your story in light of <em>the <\/em>Story \u2013 not perfectly.\u00a0 That will never happen until we get to heaven, but you begin to see patterns, some themes emerge, some things that make sense of it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat happens in fits and starts.\u00a0 Sometimes you\u2019ll go years and it\u2019s cloudy and all of the sudden, as if you\u2019re on a backpacking trip, light breaks forth and you look at a trail from some kind of a peak and you just see the narrative.\u00a0 It begins to make sense to you.\u00a0 But then, after a while, you go back into the valley.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 So a person who is twenty years removed from a catastrophic experience like you and says, \u201cI haven\u2019t seen anything.\u00a0 I\u2019m still in the cloud.\u00a0 The pain is still real.\u00a0 It just feels like there\u2019s no revelation.\u201d\u00a0 Is it because they\u2019re not looking from the right perspective or is it because sometimes God leaves you in the cloud for the rest of your days?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 That does happen.\u00a0 I do not, in this book, want to give the impression that after five years, or ten years, or twenty-five years, all of the sudden everything is going to be clear and happy again.\u00a0 To tell you the truth, my kids actually tease me about this a lot.\u00a0 I do not believe in human happiness as it is conventionally defined.\u00a0 I don\u2019t think that\u2019s what the point of life is:\u00a0 to become happy.\u00a0 It tempts us to take shortcuts, to do things on our terms, to angle for things so it always plays to our advantage.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI don\u2019t think God promises us happiness.\u00a0 I think He wants to make us holy.\u00a0 In the process of making us holy, chances are, along the way, we will find human happiness.\u00a0 You know, think about the story of Joseph.\u00a0 I mean, how long \u2013 how long \u2013 before this man started to get clarity of his journey?\u00a0 It was <em>years<\/em>.\u00a0 So I do not have a kind of \u201cmagic wand\u201d mentality when it comes to understanding our stories and our journey.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Give me a couple of illustrations of how you see people trying to take a shortcut to try to achieve the guarantee of happiness as this culture is selling it.\u00a0 What do you think are some of the dominant themes of people\u2019s lives today where they\u2019re doing that?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 I think there are a number of categories that I\u2019m talking about.\u00a0 One is addictive behaviors.\u00a0 They drown pain through alcohol, entertainment, maybe even drug addiction or something like that.\u00a0 Another one would be making decisions where immediate human happiness seems to be the goal.\u00a0 It could be a quick job change; it could be a quick remarriage.\u00a0 I mean, I think there are all kinds of alternatives in our culture that are promising shortcuts to human happiness.\u00a0 They are so tempting.\u00a0 I mean, come on; they are very tempting.\u00a0 They were tempting to me.\u00a0 But I don\u2019t think, in the long run, they\u2019re going to deliver what they appear to promise.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes; and if you think about redemption, redemption was not a shortcut.\u00a0 It was costly.\u00a0 It took God working over centuries to reach down and offer the plan of salvation to us because of His finished work on the cross and the empty tomb.\u00a0 He is working that in us.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOne of the things you talked about in your book that I found interesting:\u00a0 you spoke of redemption being a paradox.\u00a0 Explain to our listeners what you mean that redemption has this paradoxical side to it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 Well, it does in a number of ways.\u00a0 Jesus Christ is the sole source of our redemption, and yet it involves our choices.\u00a0 There\u2019s a paradox.\u00a0 How can God do it all through Christ, and yet I\u2019m supposed to participate in that process?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnother paradoxical element is the fact that I already <em>am <\/em>redeemed, but I\u2019m still becoming redeemed.\u00a0 So I am this way and I\u2019m becoming.\u00a0 Paul really captures this well when he says, \u201cI press on to make it my own.\u201d\u00a0 That word \u201cpress\u201d is a word that\u2019s used in athletics.\u00a0 It\u2019s striving, it\u2019s like a runner in a race.\u00a0 \u201cI press on to make it my own\u201d \u2013 but he doesn\u2019t stop there \u2013 \u201cbecause Christ Jesus has made me His own.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 I work because God has already done the work.\u00a0 \u201cWork out your own salvation with fear and trembling.\u201d\u00a0 There\u2019s that same sense of agitation and energy and striving.\u00a0 \u201cWork out your own salvation with fear and trembling for God is at work in you to will and to work for His good pleasure.\u201d\u00a0 And what is His pleasure?\u00a0 Our redemption.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe have to learn to live in these truth tensions in the Christian faith, it seems to me.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 There are a couple of pictures you have in a family photo album on the shores of Lake Louise \u2013 the same family, with some missing parts, right?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes, I discovered this almost by accident.\u00a0 It was actually quite a startling experience and it illustrates to me how, on occasion, we have this kind of very evocative juxtaposition of events or images that startle us and surprise us.\u00a0 So in 1991, in August - just a month before the accident \u2013 Linda and I took our four children on vacation to Banff National Park.\u00a0 We camped and so on.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe have one photo of the kids standing on the shores of Lake Louise on a particular rock with glaciers and the lake behind them.\u00a0 In 2006, I went to Banff National Park with my three children and I just happened to take a photo without any intentionality at all, purely by accident, of the three kids on the same rock with the same background.\u00a0 They\u2019re making silly faces and, of course, by now they are young adults \u2013 they are tall and strong and, in my mind as their dad, beautiful.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen I saw those two connected --and I didn\u2019t make the connection-- all of the sudden there they are \u2013 I realized that fifteen years of life experience had passed between that first album where we were a family of six and the second, when we became a family of four.\u00a0 That kind of tells it all-- that strange combination, juxtaposition of sorrow and joy; of plenty and of a rediscovery of a different kind of plenty, but only through a journey of a lot of pain and struggle along the way. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI just think we get glimpses like this every once in a while; glimpses of God\u2019s redeeming work that seems to come out of periods of such acute pain and confusion.\u00a0 And then we\u2019ll go through another one again.\u00a0 I just don\u2019t think it\u2019s a smooth pathway.\u00a0 I don\u2019t think there are five years of pain and then everything becomes happy again.\u00a0 I don\u2019t think that\u2019s the way life works.\u00a0 I think there\u2019s this strange mixture of sorrow and joy, of defeats and victories, that remain intermingled until we finally go home.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Jerry, I think you just summarized why I really enjoyed your book.\u00a0 I told you I read it while I was sitting on our back porch in the morning early; it was cool.\u00a0 I didn\u2019t read it all at once.\u00a0 I kind of read a chapter a day or maybe every other day and began to kind of chew on the themes that you talked about.\u00a0 The idea that we\u2019re all a part of a big story \u2013 God\u2019s story; what He\u2019s doing on planet Earth \u2013 but that we each have our own little stories that we\u2019re hammering out.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI reflected back over more than six decades of my story and our story \u2013 Barbara and I together in our lifetimes.\u00a0 It\u2019s proved to be as you describe it.\u00a0 It\u2019s full of mountaintops and dark, deep valleys; places of despair and, as you\u2019ve described, bewilderment, wondering \u201cwhat in the world is taking place here and now?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut I love the way you capture the big theme of redemption \u2013 what God is doing on planet Earth.\u00a0 He came to seek and to save the lost, and how He found me and somehow began a work in my life.\u00a0 I just celebrated redemption morning after morning.\u00a0 I told Bob, \u201cWe\u2019ve got to get Jerry.\u00a0 Our listeners need to hear about <em>A Grace Revealed<\/em>, because a lot of our listeners are living right there.\u00a0 They need fresh bread - freshly baked bread - that offers grace and hope and purpose in the midst of life.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 And you know, I think a lot of people are looking at their lives through the lenses of absurdity.\u00a0 They look at life and say, \u201cIt just doesn\u2019t make any sense.\u201d\u00a0 So they live absurd lives.\u00a0 Other people are looking at their lives through the lenses of despair and hopelessness.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 And I think it\u2019s easy to do that, by the way.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Absolutely.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 I think it\u2019s the default position of the human nature to move toward cynicism, unbelief, and, ultimately hopelessness.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 But when you look at life through the lenses of faith \u2013 and that\u2019s really what you\u2019re advocating here \u2013if you start with a sense that there is a God and He\u2019s up to something and my story fits somewhere even if I can\u2019t see it clearly now. . .\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 It\u2019s a faith, though, that comes out of knowledge of the big story, what we already know that God has already done through revelation.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 And that\u2019s what comes through so clearly in your book, <em>A Grace Revealed.<\/em><em>\u00a0 <\/em>I\u2019d encourage listeners, if you haven\u2019t read the book <em>A Grace Disguised<\/em>, that\u2019s really a great place to begin, because it takes you into the lessons God taught you in the valley.\u00a0 But the new book, <em>A Grace Revealed, <\/em>gives a twenty-year perspective on how God is at work, even in the midst of our difficult days.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOf course, we have both books in our <em>FamilyLife Today <\/em>Resource Center.\u00a0 You can go to FamilyLifeToday.com for more information about how you can get copies of both of these books by Jerry Sittser -\u00a0 <em>A Grace Disguised <\/em>and <em>A Grace Revealed.<\/em><em>\u00a0 <\/em>Once again, our website is FamilyLifeToday.com.\u00a0 You can also order the book when you call toll-free:\u00a0 1-800-358-6329.\u00a0 That\u2019s easily remembered as 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word \u201cTODAY\u201d.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, we are getting closer every day to the celebration of Thanksgiving here in the United States.\u00a0 Not long ago, Dennis and I sat down with our friend Nancy Leigh DeMoss to talk about the subject of gratitude \u2013 having grateful hearts, grateful spirits.\u00a0 How do we cultivate that in ourselves?\u00a0 How do we do that in our children?\u00a0 It was a great conversation, and this month we\u2019d like to make the two CDs that feature that conversation available to those of you who are able to help support the ministry of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> with a donation.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe depend on your donations to continue the work of this radio ministry day in and day out.\u00a0 As you support <em>FamilyLife Today, <\/em>you\u2019re keeping us on the air and keeping us online 24 hours a day, seven days a week.\u00a0 We want to say \u201cthanks\u201d to those of you who contact us occasionally and let us know that God is using this ministry in your life.\u00a0 Thank you for that.\u00a0 One way to say thank you is by sending out these two CDs of our conversation with Nancy Leigh DeMoss on the subject of gratitude.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTo make an online donation,go to FamilyLifeToday.com; click the button that says \u201cI CARE\u201d; make your gift online and we\u2019ll send you the CDs.\u00a0 Or call 1-800-FLTODAY to make your donation over the phone, and just ask for the CDs on gratitude or the CDs with Nancy Leigh DeMoss.\u00a0 Again, we\u2019re happy to get those out to you and we are grateful for the part you play in the ministry of <em>FamilyLife Today.<\/em>\u00a0 Thanks for your support.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe hope you can be back with us again tomorrow.\u00a0 We\u2019re going to continue our conversation with Jerry Sittser about the lessons we can learn over time as God takes us through challenging circumstances in our lives.\u00a0 We\u2019ll talk more about <em>A Grace Revealed<\/em> tomorrow.\u00a0 I hope you can be here.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team.\u00a0 On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine.\u00a0 We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHelp for today.\u00a0 Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you.\u00a0 However, there is a cost to produce them for our website.\u00a0 If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2012 FamilyLife.\u00a0 All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\t1\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>"],"_seopress_titles_title":[""],"_seopress_titles_desc":[""],"_seopress_robots_index":[""],"duration":["00:"],"show_notes":[""],"_thumbnail_id":["294104"],"filesize":["23.59M"],"filesize_raw":["24733074"],"_uag_css_file_name":["uag-css-302629.css"],"_uag_js_file_name":["uag-js-302629.js"],"_uag_page_assets":["a:9:{s:3:\"css\";s:82560:\".wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-top svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-top .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: 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suffering is so integral to human sanctification, why do we, as humans fear and avoid it?","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2012-11-12.pdf","transcript_content":"<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Are you looking for joy and purpose and meaning in life or a sense of fulfillment?\u00a0 Jerry Sittser says, \u201cIsn\u2019t everybody?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 I think there are all kinds of alternatives in our culture that are promising shortcuts to human happiness.\u00a0 One is alcohol; entertainment; maybe even drug addiction or something like that.\u00a0 Another one would be a quick job change; it could be a quick remarriage.\u00a0 They are so tempting.\u00a0 I mean, come on; they are very tempting to me.\u00a0 But I don\u2019t think in the long run they\u2019re going to deliver what they appear to promise.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Monday, November 12th.\u00a0 Our host is the President of FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.\u00a0 The pathway that gets you to joy and meaning and purpose is often a pathway that is clouded \u2013 shrouded in suffering.\u00a0 We\u2019re going to talk about that today.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today.<\/em><em>\u00a0 <\/em>Thanks for joining us.\u00a0 I\u2019ve had two things running through my head as I\u2019ve been thinking about our conversation today.\u00a0 The first is the old, I guess you\u2019d call it a gospel song, that says, \u201cCheer up my brothers, live in the sunshine; you\u2019ll understand it all by and by.\u201d\u00a0 (Laughter)\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd then the second thing is the Apostle Paul talking about mysteries:\u00a0 \u201cBehold, I tell you a mystery.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 When a mystery is told in the Bible, something you didn\u2019t understand before is all of the sudden made understandable.\u00a0 It\u2019s revealed.\u00a0 That\u2019s a little bit about where we\u2019re headed today, don\u2019t you think?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 It is.\u00a0 It really is.\u00a0 I\u2019m glad you didn\u2019t sing.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 You don\u2019t want to hear me?\u00a0 (Singing)\u00a0 \u201cCheer up my brothers, live in the sunshine; we\u2019ll understand it all by and by.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 Good little twang there.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Should I ask our guest if he can provide the harmony to that?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 A little \u201cName That Tune?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 I can do the latter.\u00a0 (Singing)\u00a0 \u201cBehold, I tell you a mystery!\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 That\u2019s the bass part on that one.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 Handel.\u00a0 (Laughter)\u00a0 Handel.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Well, that\u2019s the baritone voice of Jerry Sittser who joins us again on <em>FamilyLife Today.<\/em><em>\u00a0 <\/em>Jerry, welcome back.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 Thank you, Dennis.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 He\u2019s our friend from the Northwest.\u00a0 Jerry is Professor and Chair of Theology at Whitworth University in Spokane, Washington.\u00a0 He and his wife Patricia have five children, all grown.\u00a0 And Jerry is \u2013 well, he\u2019s known for a lot of things.\u00a0 Not only for teaching, but he\u2019s a great writer.\u00a0 His best-selling book is <em>A Grace Disguised.<\/em><em>\u00a0 <\/em>Now his newest book, that we\u2019re going to discuss today, is <em>A Grace Revealed.<\/em><em>\u00a0 <\/em>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI have to ask you, Jerry, all the way back to when you wrote <em>A Grace Disguised:<\/em><em>\u00a0 <\/em>How was it not revealed?\u00a0 What was taking place in your life that you would call it \u201ca grace disguised?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 Well, sometimes we go through experiences where God seems absent or God\u2019s plan for our lives seems cloudy, obscure, disguised, so to speak.\u00a0 I wrote that book in the wake of an experience where God seemed absent and His grace seemed very disguised.\u00a0 That was a drunken-driving accident, as you know.\u00a0 I\u2019ve talked about this before-- that took my mother, who was visiting for the weekend, and my wife Linda, and one of my children, Diana Jane, who was then four.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI survived the accident, along with my three other children:\u00a0 Katherine, who was then eight; David, who had just turned seven; and John, who was two at the time.\u00a0 In the wake of that accident, many things seemed very disguised.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 As a result, you were a single parent for 19 years.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 Nineteen years.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 And that grace was revealed in some very difficult days in your life \u2013 of how God met you as a single parent dad in raising those children, really, all the way to adulthood, right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 All the way to adulthood, right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Now you\u2019ve written this book, <em>A Grace Revealed, <\/em>which is really about two things.\u00a0 It\u2019s about story--a big story and a smaller story.\u00a0 And it\u2019s about the theme of redemption.\u00a0 I want you to explain to our listeners why you chose the method of telling a story as the way to explain the powerful theme of redemption.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 Largely it\u2019s because redemption takes place as a narrative, right?\u00a0 Redemption has movement to it.\u00a0 It\u2019s got life to it, vitality.\u00a0 Granted, we are redeemed through what Jesus Christ has already done for us.\u00a0 One of the leading verses or texts that I use in this book is from 2 Corinthians 5: 16 and 17:\u00a0 \u201cIf anyone is in Christ, that person is a new creation.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNotice the \u201cis\u201d \u2013 not \u201cis becoming,\u201d or \u201cmight be,\u201d or \u201chopes to be,\u201d but <em>is <\/em>a new creation.\u00a0 My identity in Jesus Christ and through what Jesus Christ has done for me is a new creation, but I don\u2019t always live like a new creation.\u00a0 So part of redemption is affirming <em>who <\/em>I am in Jesus Christ.\u00a0 Part of redemption also involves <em>becoming <\/em>like the person I already am <em>in <\/em>Jesus Christ.\u00a0 And that is narrative.\u00a0 That\u2019s story; that takes place over time and in a specific set of circumstances.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tFor me, it had to do with being widowed.\u00a0 It had to do with having three young children and raising those children in a way that was honoring to God.\u00a0 That takes place through story.\u00a0 So that was the reason I chose story as kind of the leading metaphor in the whole book.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut the other thing I wanted to do is affirm the relationship between my little story--\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 -- the story of Jerry and his three kids and our circumstances \u2013 living in Spokane, teaching at a university, having neighbors and friends and all the rest, you know?\u00a0 And how that little story of my life - which seemed so confusing to me for so many years \u2013 how that story really fits into and finds its meaning in the larger story of God\u2019s redemptive work in the world as we read about it, especially through the Bible.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 I want to go back to this idea of the new creature that you are and that you are becoming, because it\u2019s really both.\u00a0 It\u2019s who you are and who you are becoming.\u00a0 You saw a sculpture in Florence, Italy that was a great metaphor for you of what is going on with all of us, right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 It was.\u00a0 I mean, it was almost revelatory in a certain way.\u00a0 I visited Florence for a kind of late honeymoon with my first wife, Linda, way back in the \u201870s.\u00a0 We had Florence as one of our target cities \u2013 we knew there were great art galleries and cathedrals and all of the rest.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOne of the ones we wanted to go to was a gallery that displays this magnificent Michelangelo sculpture of <em>David<\/em>.\u00a0 Now, here\u2019s this towering figure \u2013 I mean, it\u2019s just amazing \u2013 looming over us.\u00a0 David stands there looking serene and confident; he\u2019s got a stone in his hand.\u00a0 He\u2019s got a sling he\u2019s holding over his shoulder.\u00a0 He\u2019s looking with a kind of steely gaze, probably at Goliath.\u00a0 Art historians don\u2019t know whether he had already killed Goliath or whether he was about to.\u00a0 When you look into his face, you realize that it doesn\u2019t matter.\u00a0 This man was in control.\u00a0 He knows he\u2019s going to win the battle.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut what I didn\u2019t know was that down one of the wings of this gallery are five sculptures that Michelangelo did that appear to be incomplete \u2013 but maybe not!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat they are, are sculptures of figures that are partly still encased in this marble \u201ctomb,\u201d you could say, I suppose.\u00a0 Part of them is done and, where they are completed, they are perfect.\u00a0 It could be a torso, an arm, part of a leg, a face, whatever.\u00a0 The rest of it is still in this marble encasement.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 I got curious, so I did some research on this and I realized that Michelangelo had this uncanny \u2013 almost supernatural \u2013 ability to see in the marble what he was going to sculpt, as if the figure already existed.\u00a0 So, unlike most sculptors, who first do a plaster cast of it and play with it and tweak it until it\u2019s where they want it to be, and then they take a big block of marble and they mark out on the marble how they\u2019re going to replicate that in something where you can\u2019t make mistakes, Michelangelo could just take a block of marble and start.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHe would begin to do his sculpting. He would bore in \u2013 usually in the mid-section \u2013 and where he would start to sculpt it would always be perfect, because he saw the figure even before he started.\u00a0 His goal was simply to remove everything that kept it from coming alive.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tMy argument is that we <em>are <\/em>new.\u00a0 God has made us that way through the perfect work of Jesus Christ.\u00a0 I ama new creation, period.\u00a0 I don\u2019t have to do anything.\u00a0 I don\u2019t contribute at all to God\u2019s finished work of who I am in Jesus Christ, but I still need to become who I am.\u00a0 I need to let that excess marble get chipped and sanded and ground away so I can emerge.\u00a0 When I emerge, I am only emerging to become what I already am.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 You almost said this a few moments ago.\u00a0 I think it was Michelangelo who said this.\u00a0 He said, \u201cAs the chips fall to the floor, the image emerges.\u201d\u00a0 What God is doing in our lives is He is chiseling and He\u2019s shaping.\u00a0 He knows what we are to become and He is shaping the image of Christ in our lives.\u00a0 Sometimes, as you know from the car wreck with the loss of your mother, your wife, and your daughter, the chips can fall off in some pretty good chunks, and it doesn\u2019t feel good at the time.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 It does not feel good.\u00a0 And it\u2019s not just painful, it\u2019s confusing.\u00a0 It\u2019s bewildering.\u00a0 It\u2019s interesting to note that one of the predominant emotions I had in the wake of that catastrophic experience was bewilderment.\u00a0 It\u2019s as if I experienced reality with a cocked head and with this question mark on my brow.\u00a0 I just didn\u2019t get it; it just seemed so strange to me.\u00a0 \u201cWhy did this happen?\u00a0 This is just stupid!\u00a0 It doesn\u2019t make any sense!\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo that bewilderment meant that God\u2019s grace was disguised.\u00a0 But now it\u2019s twenty years later and life begins to look a little bit different.\u00a0 You know, you begin to pick up narrative threads; you begin to make some sense of things.\u00a0 You begin to read your story in light of <em>the <\/em>Story \u2013 not perfectly.\u00a0 That will never happen until we get to heaven, but you begin to see patterns, some themes emerge, some things that make sense of it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat happens in fits and starts.\u00a0 Sometimes you\u2019ll go years and it\u2019s cloudy and all of the sudden, as if you\u2019re on a backpacking trip, light breaks forth and you look at a trail from some kind of a peak and you just see the narrative.\u00a0 It begins to make sense to you.\u00a0 But then, after a while, you go back into the valley.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 So a person who is twenty years removed from a catastrophic experience like you and says, \u201cI haven\u2019t seen anything.\u00a0 I\u2019m still in the cloud.\u00a0 The pain is still real.\u00a0 It just feels like there\u2019s no revelation.\u201d\u00a0 Is it because they\u2019re not looking from the right perspective or is it because sometimes God leaves you in the cloud for the rest of your days?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 That does happen.\u00a0 I do not, in this book, want to give the impression that after five years, or ten years, or twenty-five years, all of the sudden everything is going to be clear and happy again.\u00a0 To tell you the truth, my kids actually tease me about this a lot.\u00a0 I do not believe in human happiness as it is conventionally defined.\u00a0 I don\u2019t think that\u2019s what the point of life is:\u00a0 to become happy.\u00a0 It tempts us to take shortcuts, to do things on our terms, to angle for things so it always plays to our advantage.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI don\u2019t think God promises us happiness.\u00a0 I think He wants to make us holy.\u00a0 In the process of making us holy, chances are, along the way, we will find human happiness.\u00a0 You know, think about the story of Joseph.\u00a0 I mean, how long \u2013 how long \u2013 before this man started to get clarity of his journey?\u00a0 It was <em>years<\/em>.\u00a0 So I do not have a kind of \u201cmagic wand\u201d mentality when it comes to understanding our stories and our journey.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Give me a couple of illustrations of how you see people trying to take a shortcut to try to achieve the guarantee of happiness as this culture is selling it.\u00a0 What do you think are some of the dominant themes of people\u2019s lives today where they\u2019re doing that?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 I think there are a number of categories that I\u2019m talking about.\u00a0 One is addictive behaviors.\u00a0 They drown pain through alcohol, entertainment, maybe even drug addiction or something like that.\u00a0 Another one would be making decisions where immediate human happiness seems to be the goal.\u00a0 It could be a quick job change; it could be a quick remarriage.\u00a0 I mean, I think there are all kinds of alternatives in our culture that are promising shortcuts to human happiness.\u00a0 They are so tempting.\u00a0 I mean, come on; they are very tempting.\u00a0 They were tempting to me.\u00a0 But I don\u2019t think, in the long run, they\u2019re going to deliver what they appear to promise.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes; and if you think about redemption, redemption was not a shortcut.\u00a0 It was costly.\u00a0 It took God working over centuries to reach down and offer the plan of salvation to us because of His finished work on the cross and the empty tomb.\u00a0 He is working that in us.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOne of the things you talked about in your book that I found interesting:\u00a0 you spoke of redemption being a paradox.\u00a0 Explain to our listeners what you mean that redemption has this paradoxical side to it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 Well, it does in a number of ways.\u00a0 Jesus Christ is the sole source of our redemption, and yet it involves our choices.\u00a0 There\u2019s a paradox.\u00a0 How can God do it all through Christ, and yet I\u2019m supposed to participate in that process?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnother paradoxical element is the fact that I already <em>am <\/em>redeemed, but I\u2019m still becoming redeemed.\u00a0 So I am this way and I\u2019m becoming.\u00a0 Paul really captures this well when he says, \u201cI press on to make it my own.\u201d\u00a0 That word \u201cpress\u201d is a word that\u2019s used in athletics.\u00a0 It\u2019s striving, it\u2019s like a runner in a race.\u00a0 \u201cI press on to make it my own\u201d \u2013 but he doesn\u2019t stop there \u2013 \u201cbecause Christ Jesus has made me His own.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 I work because God has already done the work.\u00a0 \u201cWork out your own salvation with fear and trembling.\u201d\u00a0 There\u2019s that same sense of agitation and energy and striving.\u00a0 \u201cWork out your own salvation with fear and trembling for God is at work in you to will and to work for His good pleasure.\u201d\u00a0 And what is His pleasure?\u00a0 Our redemption.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe have to learn to live in these truth tensions in the Christian faith, it seems to me.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 There are a couple of pictures you have in a family photo album on the shores of Lake Louise \u2013 the same family, with some missing parts, right?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes, I discovered this almost by accident.\u00a0 It was actually quite a startling experience and it illustrates to me how, on occasion, we have this kind of very evocative juxtaposition of events or images that startle us and surprise us.\u00a0 So in 1991, in August - just a month before the accident \u2013 Linda and I took our four children on vacation to Banff National Park.\u00a0 We camped and so on.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe have one photo of the kids standing on the shores of Lake Louise on a particular rock with glaciers and the lake behind them.\u00a0 In 2006, I went to Banff National Park with my three children and I just happened to take a photo without any intentionality at all, purely by accident, of the three kids on the same rock with the same background.\u00a0 They\u2019re making silly faces and, of course, by now they are young adults \u2013 they are tall and strong and, in my mind as their dad, beautiful.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen I saw those two connected --and I didn\u2019t make the connection-- all of the sudden there they are \u2013 I realized that fifteen years of life experience had passed between that first album where we were a family of six and the second, when we became a family of four.\u00a0 That kind of tells it all-- that strange combination, juxtaposition of sorrow and joy; of plenty and of a rediscovery of a different kind of plenty, but only through a journey of a lot of pain and struggle along the way. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI just think we get glimpses like this every once in a while; glimpses of God\u2019s redeeming work that seems to come out of periods of such acute pain and confusion.\u00a0 And then we\u2019ll go through another one again.\u00a0 I just don\u2019t think it\u2019s a smooth pathway.\u00a0 I don\u2019t think there are five years of pain and then everything becomes happy again.\u00a0 I don\u2019t think that\u2019s the way life works.\u00a0 I think there\u2019s this strange mixture of sorrow and joy, of defeats and victories, that remain intermingled until we finally go home.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Jerry, I think you just summarized why I really enjoyed your book.\u00a0 I told you I read it while I was sitting on our back porch in the morning early; it was cool.\u00a0 I didn\u2019t read it all at once.\u00a0 I kind of read a chapter a day or maybe every other day and began to kind of chew on the themes that you talked about.\u00a0 The idea that we\u2019re all a part of a big story \u2013 God\u2019s story; what He\u2019s doing on planet Earth \u2013 but that we each have our own little stories that we\u2019re hammering out.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI reflected back over more than six decades of my story and our story \u2013 Barbara and I together in our lifetimes.\u00a0 It\u2019s proved to be as you describe it.\u00a0 It\u2019s full of mountaintops and dark, deep valleys; places of despair and, as you\u2019ve described, bewilderment, wondering \u201cwhat in the world is taking place here and now?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut I love the way you capture the big theme of redemption \u2013 what God is doing on planet Earth.\u00a0 He came to seek and to save the lost, and how He found me and somehow began a work in my life.\u00a0 I just celebrated redemption morning after morning.\u00a0 I told Bob, \u201cWe\u2019ve got to get Jerry.\u00a0 Our listeners need to hear about <em>A Grace Revealed<\/em>, because a lot of our listeners are living right there.\u00a0 They need fresh bread - freshly baked bread - that offers grace and hope and purpose in the midst of life.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 And you know, I think a lot of people are looking at their lives through the lenses of absurdity.\u00a0 They look at life and say, \u201cIt just doesn\u2019t make any sense.\u201d\u00a0 So they live absurd lives.\u00a0 Other people are looking at their lives through the lenses of despair and hopelessness.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 And I think it\u2019s easy to do that, by the way.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Absolutely.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 I think it\u2019s the default position of the human nature to move toward cynicism, unbelief, and, ultimately hopelessness.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 But when you look at life through the lenses of faith \u2013 and that\u2019s really what you\u2019re advocating here \u2013if you start with a sense that there is a God and He\u2019s up to something and my story fits somewhere even if I can\u2019t see it clearly now. . .\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 It\u2019s a faith, though, that comes out of knowledge of the big story, what we already know that God has already done through revelation.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 And that\u2019s what comes through so clearly in your book, <em>A Grace Revealed.<\/em><em>\u00a0 <\/em>I\u2019d encourage listeners, if you haven\u2019t read the book <em>A Grace Disguised<\/em>, that\u2019s really a great place to begin, because it takes you into the lessons God taught you in the valley.\u00a0 But the new book, <em>A Grace Revealed, <\/em>gives a twenty-year perspective on how God is at work, even in the midst of our difficult days.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOf course, we have both books in our <em>FamilyLife Today <\/em>Resource Center.\u00a0 You can go to FamilyLifeToday.com for more information about how you can get copies of both of these books by Jerry Sittser -\u00a0 <em>A Grace Disguised <\/em>and <em>A Grace Revealed.<\/em><em>\u00a0 <\/em>Once again, our website is FamilyLifeToday.com.\u00a0 You can also order the book when you call toll-free:\u00a0 1-800-358-6329.\u00a0 That\u2019s easily remembered as 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word \u201cTODAY\u201d.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, we are getting closer every day to the celebration of Thanksgiving here in the United States.\u00a0 Not long ago, Dennis and I sat down with our friend Nancy Leigh DeMoss to talk about the subject of gratitude \u2013 having grateful hearts, grateful spirits.\u00a0 How do we cultivate that in ourselves?\u00a0 How do we do that in our children?\u00a0 It was a great conversation, and this month we\u2019d like to make the two CDs that feature that conversation available to those of you who are able to help support the ministry of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> with a donation.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe depend on your donations to continue the work of this radio ministry day in and day out.\u00a0 As you support <em>FamilyLife Today, <\/em>you\u2019re keeping us on the air and keeping us online 24 hours a day, seven days a week.\u00a0 We want to say \u201cthanks\u201d to those of you who contact us occasionally and let us know that God is using this ministry in your life.\u00a0 Thank you for that.\u00a0 One way to say thank you is by sending out these two CDs of our conversation with Nancy Leigh DeMoss on the subject of gratitude.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTo make an online donation,go to FamilyLifeToday.com; click the button that says \u201cI CARE\u201d; make your gift online and we\u2019ll send you the CDs.\u00a0 Or call 1-800-FLTODAY to make your donation over the phone, and just ask for the CDs on gratitude or the CDs with Nancy Leigh DeMoss.\u00a0 Again, we\u2019re happy to get those out to you and we are grateful for the part you play in the ministry of <em>FamilyLife Today.<\/em>\u00a0 Thanks for your support.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe hope you can be back with us again tomorrow.\u00a0 We\u2019re going to continue our conversation with Jerry Sittser about the lessons we can learn over time as God takes us through challenging circumstances in our lives.\u00a0 We\u2019ll talk more about <em>A Grace Revealed<\/em> tomorrow.\u00a0 I hope you can be here.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team.\u00a0 On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine.\u00a0 We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHelp for today.\u00a0 Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you.\u00a0 However, there is a cost to produce them for our website.\u00a0 If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2012 FamilyLife.\u00a0 All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\t1\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>","theme_header_position":"","post_header_is_sticky":"","is_header_overlay":""},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/302629","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/91"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=302629"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/294104"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=302629"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=302629"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=302629"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=302629"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=302629"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=302629"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}