{"id":302451,"date":"2012-02-03T12:00:00","date_gmt":"2012-02-03T17:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/for-such-a-time-as-this\/"},"modified":"2012-02-03T12:00:00","modified_gmt":"2012-02-03T17:00:00","slug":"for-such-a-time-as-this","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/for-such-a-time-as-this\/","title":{"rendered":"For Such a Time as This"},"content":{"rendered":"","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Silence in the face of evil, is evil. Not to speak is to speak. Not to act, is to act.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2012-02-03.mp3","podmotor_file_id":"","podmotor_episode_id":"","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:","filesize":"26.54M","filesize_raw":"27824107","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2822],"tags":[5190,5191],"podcast_series":[7856],"cwp_profile":[9260],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-302451","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-growing-in-your-faith","tag-german","tag-pastor","podcast_series-bonhoeffer-pastor-martyr-prophet-spy","cwp_profile-eric-metaxas","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/302451\/for-such-a-time-as-this","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/302451\/for-such-a-time-as-this","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"WT7Hz500Bd\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/for-such-a-time-as-this\/\">For Such a Time as This<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/for-such-a-time-as-this\/embed\/#?secret=WT7Hz500Bd\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;For Such a Time as This&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"WT7Hz500Bd\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"uagb_featured_image_src":{"full":["https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg",508,508,false]},"uagb_author_info":{"display_name":"kfairris@familylife.com","author_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/author\/kfairrisfamilylife-com\/"},"uagb_comment_info":0,"uagb_excerpt":"Silence in the face of evil, is evil. Not to speak is to speak. Not to act, is to act.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2012-02-03.pdf","transcript_content":"<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 The 1930\u2019s were a time of great political upheaval in Germany.\u00a0 Dietrich Bonhoeffer was studying theology in the United States; but he made the decision to go back home, even though doing so meant that his life was in danger.\u00a0 Here\u2019s Bonhoeffer\u2018s biographer, Eric Metaxas.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong>\u00a0 He doesn\u2019t know if he\u2019s going to live or die; he doesn\u2019t know what\u2019s going to happen.\u00a0 He\u2019s not thinking about romance, but he falls in love.\u00a0 He gets engaged.\u00a0 Really, he felt that, \u201cThis is an act of faith, in a way\u2014in a time when we don\u2019t know if we\u2019re going to live or die\u2014to do this unto God.\u00a0 I\u2019m not going to live in fear; I\u2019m just going to do what I believe God is calling me to do as though there is a future (whether there is or isn\u2019t).\u201d\u00a0 Just around this time, he gets arrested.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Friday, February 3rd.\u00a0 Our host is the President of FamilyLife\u00ae, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.\u00a0 Eric Metaxas joins us today to tell us the story of Dietrich Bonhoeffer\u2014a story of war, of intrigue, of conspiracy, and a story of love.\u00a0 Stay tuned.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\u00a0 Thanks for joining us.\u00a0 You know, I was trying to figure out, \u201cWhen was it that I first heard of Dietrich Bonhoeffer?\u201d because it\u2019s not a name that you grow up hearing about.\u00a0 I think the first time I heard about Bonhoeffer was when somebody talked about the concept of \u201ccheap grace\u201d.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong>\u00a0 Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 One of the things that Bonhoeffer was known for\u2014he talked about \u201ccheap grace.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 I remember that phrase sticking with me and thinking, \u201cI\u2019ve seen evidences of people who take the Gospel as less than serious\u2014less than life-transforming.\u201d\u00a0 That\u2019s what Bonhoeffer was talking about when he talked about \u201ccheap grace\u201d.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 I think my first introduction to Bonhoeffer came through one of his quotes.\u00a0 In fact, that was going to be one of the ways I introduced our guest today, Eric Metaxas.\u00a0 Eric joins us again on <em>FamilyLife Today.<\/em><em>\u00a0 <\/em>Eric\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong>\u00a0 Great to be here.\u00a0 Thank you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 What\u2019s your favorite quote by Dietrich Bonhoeffer?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong>\u00a0 Well, it\u2019s hard to say.\u00a0 If I had to pick one, probably it would be\u2014he says, \u201cSilence in the face of evil is itself evil.\u00a0 God will not hold us guiltless.\u00a0 Not to speak is to speak.\u00a0 Not to act is to act.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Wow!\u00a0 I hadn\u2019t heard that one.\u00a0 Here are two of my favorites, \u201cIt is the righteous man who lives for the next generation.\u201d\u00a0 And then one that I recently passed on to my children, while apologizing for the condition of the culture that we\u2019re passing on to them, was this statement by Dr. Bonhoeffer, \u201cThe ultimate test of a moral society is the kind of world that it leaves to its children.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou know, he really was a brilliant man.\u00a0 I\u2019m grateful, Eric, that you spent a good bit of your adult life researching his life to introduce us to him.\u00a0 You\u2019ve written a book called <em>Bonhoeffer:<\/em><em>\u00a0 <\/em><em>Pastor, Martyr, Prophet, Spy.<\/em>\u00a0 You\u2019ve written more than 30 children\u2019s books\u2014been a contributor to the <em>Veggie Tales <\/em>series.\u00a0 One thing I wanted you to comment on\u2014you just wrote a new book, <em>Socrates in the City<\/em>.\u00a0 This really comes out of a series of pre-evangelistic meetings you\u2019re now holding in New York City?\u00a0 You\u2019re kind of a missionary to New York City; aren\u2019t you?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\u00a0 It\u2019s like Billy Graham is an evangelist.\u00a0 I\u2019m a pre-evangelist.\u00a0 I never thought of that before.\u00a0 Actually, in New York City, where I live with my wife and daughter, I realize that there\u2019s a need for biblical thinking.\u00a0 There\u2019s not much of it going on.\u00a0 I said, \u201cWhat if we had a speaker series that we do in these sort of fancy clubs and have hors d\u2019oeuvres and piano music and invite speakers like Chuck Colson or Oz Guinness?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe\u2019ve been doing this for 11 years, and we\u2019ve had some of the most magical evenings.\u00a0 I can hardly exaggerate it.\u00a0 People walk out saying, \u201cThat was magical.\u00a0 That was the best one yet.\u201d\u00a0 I keep hearing that over, and over, and over again.\u00a0 Socrates famously said, \u201cThe unexamined life is not worth living.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI thought, \u201cIf we just examine our lives\u201d\u2014we, as believers, know that, \u201cIf I examine things honestly, I know Who is truth.\u201d\u00a0 So I said, \u201cLet\u2019s just do that.\u201d\u00a0 We\u2019ve been doing it for all these years; and I kept thinking, \u201cSomeday we\u2019ve got to get some of these talks into a book.\u00a0 They\u2019re just too good to have just for 200 people.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHonestly, other than my talk, these are some of the most wonderful talks you will ever hear or read.\u00a0 <em>Socrates in the City<\/em> is the title.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 One of the things I was looking forward to asking you\u2014and this is going to be kind of out-of- the-ordinary.\u00a0 You\u2019ve so studied this man\u2019s life that I would like to ask you one of my favorite questions I like to ask men, \u201cWhat is the most courageous thing (do you think) Dietrich Bonhoeffer did in all his life?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong>\u00a0 If I had to point one, sort of in the natural or in the flesh, I would say his decision to leave New York City in 1939.\u00a0 He goes back there a second time, really, to escape the coming war.\u00a0 His decision to go <em>back<\/em> to Berlin\u2014to go back to Germany after he had escaped\u2014in the natural, from our point of view, that has to be the most courageous thing.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tMaybe for him, I think, he would probably say that was the most difficult decision.\u00a0 Maybe not the most courageous, but the most difficult because he really was trying to hear from God; and it was not easy.\u00a0 This one was a very complicated thing.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 For those who haven\u2019t read your book and don\u2019t know Dietrich Bonhoeffer\u2019s story\u2014he was born in Germany, and grew up, and studied theology as a young man.\u00a0 He had a PhD by the time he was 21\u2014came to New York and studied theology at Union Seminary in New York, went back to Germany.\u00a0 Then, as you said, he escaped as the war was coming.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe really should get into some of that because in some of these pre-war years, what was happening with the Nazi party in Germany\u2014the whole experience where the church windows were shattered in Germany at the ordering of Hitler\u2014these were formative in Bonhoeffer\u2019s thinking about, \u201cHow do we respond to this as believers?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong>\u00a0 Right; and things were changing in Germany very dramatically.\u00a0 Bonhoeffer was constantly asking the Lord to show him, \u201cNow what do I do?\u00a0 Now what do I do?\u201d\u00a0 The Nazis were getting more and more powerful, and Bonhoeffer was speaking out against them.\u00a0 But as the \u201830s are winding down, the Nazis are becoming much more powerful.\u00a0 The kind of battle that he was fighting in 1933 and \u201934\u2014that was now pass\u00e9.\u00a0 This is a new battle.\u00a0 It led him, finally, to join the conspiracy\u2014the official conspiracy\u2014against Adolf Hitler.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, he\u2019d been providing moral support\u2014he\u2019d been sort of involved, but he had never officially joined the conspiracy.\u00a0 When the war comes, Bonhoeffer comes back to Germany.\u00a0 He decides, \u201cOkay, God\u2019s calling me back to Germany.\u201d\u00a0 His brother-in-law\u2014and this is where it just gets so fascinating, especially for students of World War II. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHe becomes a double-agent.\u00a0 His brother-in-law says, \u201cOkay, I\u2019m going to hire you to work for German military intelligence.\u00a0 You\u2019re going to look like somebody who is serving the Third Reich in time of war.\u00a0 All the Nazis are going to think, \u2018Okay, you didn\u2019t pick up a rifle and go into the war, but you\u2019re serving us in a different way.\u2019\u00a0 But I know, and you know, and our family knows, what you\u2019re really doing and what I\u2019m really doing\u2014we are involved in a secret conspiracy against the Nazis.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt\u2019s an extraordinary thing that Bonhoeffer made the leap in his wrestling with God, \u201cWhat do I do?\u201d to finally say, \u201cI believe God is calling me to enter a conspiracy to kill the head of state.\u201d\u00a0 This is a big thing.\u00a0 A lot of people, theologically, don\u2019t understand how he got there.\u00a0 In the book, I think, I explain this; but it takes some time to understand how somebody, in wrestling with God, could come to this conclusion.\u00a0 Bonhoeffer did.\u00a0 From this point on, he\u2019s a double-agent.\u00a0 He is somebody who is underground.\u00a0 On the surface, he looks like he\u2019s serving the Third Reich; but we know he\u2019s doing just the opposite.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt\u2019s just an amazing story, and amazing to me, that he decides to go there\u2014that he decides to do this.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Eric, somebody today who would read Bonhoeffer\u2019s story and would say, \u201cThere is evil in our own country; and maybe I should take up a rifle and aim for a political leader, or aim for the head of the abortion clinic, or\u2014Are they justified in what they are doing, based on what Bonhoeffer did, or was he somehow pushing the boundaries beyond where he should have pushed them?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes, I\u2019m glad you brought that up.\u00a0 I think that the situation with Bonhoeffer is so dramatically different from anything where we are today.\u00a0 Again, people love to be sloppy.\u00a0 People love to take shortcuts.\u00a0 If you want to use Bonhoeffer as an excuse to pick up a gun and kill somebody, I\u2019m sorry.\u00a0 You know, Bonhoeffer and God are not going to support you in that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBonhoeffer\u2019s story\u2014we don\u2019t\u2014We need to know the full story because he didn\u2019t do what he did lightly.\u00a0 He did it very reluctantly, but he knew that millions of Jews were being killed; and he knew that somehow Germans needed to do something.\u00a0 It, ultimately, led him into this conspiracy; but he was\u2014I think anybody like Bonhoeffer, when they\u2019re doing this, it\u2019s a last resort.\u00a0 They\u2019re not happy about it.\u00a0 They just feel like this is ultimately, \u201cWhat I <em>must <\/em>do.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt\u2019s theologically complex.\u00a0 I hope I explain that in the book.\u00a0 It\u2019s probably not the kind of thing we could explain in a short sound bite.\u00a0 It\u2019s heavy.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 The story takes a fascinating turn, almost like a spy movie, at this point because Bonhoeffer falls in love with a young lady who is 18 years younger than him.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\u00a0 Yes, it\u2019s funny to think that in wartime\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Right in the midst of all of this!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes, it\u2019s sort of a crazy time.\u00a0 You can just imagine\u2014and actually, maybe we can\u2019t imagine because things are so pacific in our generation\u2014that we think what\u2019s all exciting and crazy is <em>nothing<\/em> compared to what they were living through.\u00a0 They were living through kind of a living hell.\u00a0 I mean, it\u2019s hard for us, really, almost impossible, to imagine.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIn the midst of this turmoil, he falls in love.\u00a0 Now, he thought he would never get married.\u00a0 He was kind of convinced that he\u2019s just serving God and things are so tumultuous that he doesn\u2019t know if he\u2019s going to live or die.\u00a0 He doesn\u2019t know what\u2019s going to happen.\u00a0 He\u2019s not thinking about romance, but he falls in love with Maria von Wedemeyer.\u00a0 I had the privilege of meeting her elder sister in Germany a couple of years ago; and in two weeks, I\u2019m going to meet her younger sister in New York City, if you can believe it.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut Bonhoeffer didn\u2019t anticipate this.\u00a0 So now, he gets engaged.\u00a0 Really, he felt that, \u201cThis is an act of faith in a way\u2014in a time when we don\u2019t know if we\u2019re going to live or die\u2014to do this unto God.\u00a0 I\u2019m not going to live in fear.\u00a0 I\u2019m just going to do what I believe God is calling me to do as though there is a future (whether there is or isn\u2019t).\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tJust around this time (as you know, since you read the book), he gets arrested.\u00a0 He\u2019s in prison, and they\u2019re writing these letters back and forth.\u00a0 He\u2019s pretty convinced that he will eventually get out of prison because he wasn\u2019t arrested for the plot to kill Hitler.\u00a0 He was arrested for his involvement in an operation to get seven Jews out of Germany\u2014this heroic effort to save the lives of these German Jews.\u00a0 That\u2019s a far cry from being involved in a plot to kill Hitler.\u00a0 That plot was not uncovered for more than a year after he was imprisoned.\u00a0 Once that plot was uncovered, of course, Bonhoeffer\u2019s days were numbered.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Was his plot one of a number of plots?\u00a0 I remember the movie <em>Valkyrie <\/em>coming out a couple of years ago.\u00a0 Was it the same plot or a different one?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong>\u00a0 Well, there were a number of attempts to kill Hitler.\u00a0 I write about a number of them in the book.\u00a0 They are some of the most fascinating stories, and that\u2019s why I put them in the book.\u00a0 I said, \u201cThis makes great reading, and it helps you get context on what was going on during this strange time in history.\u201d\u00a0 You think that there are no Germans doing anything, but there were a number of Germans participating in these baroque efforts to kill Hitler.\u00a0 It\u2019s amazing!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBonhoeffer was in prison when the Valkyrie plot, which was the last of them, fails.\u00a0 I write the story of the Valkyrie plot in the book.\u00a0 It\u2019s just, again, an unbelievable story.\u00a0 It was the result of the failure of that plot that led to Bonhoeffer being named as one of the conspirators.\u00a0 Now he\u2019s transferred to the Gestapo prison.\u00a0 It\u2019s much more difficult\u2014much more of a Draconian situation.\u00a0 He was in a military prison before that; and it really wasn\u2019t so bad, all things considered\u2014but once he gets transferred to the Gestapo prison, it\u2019s pretty awful.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou know, it\u2019s an underground prison in Berlin.\u00a0 People were being tortured.\u00a0 Bonhoeffer himself was not tortured, but he was threatened with torture.\u00a0 It was an awful place, an absolutely awful place.\u00a0 In February of 1945, the Allies are bombing Berlin so tremendously that the Germans decide they\u2019ve got to transfer all these prisoners from this Gestapo prison.\u00a0 So he\u2019s from there taken to Buchenwald, which is a concentration camp, where he meets a whole other cast of characters.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe last part of the book is my favorite part just because it is such a fascinating and strange story.\u00a0 It\u2019s like a movie\u2014What is going on?\u00a0 Where are these people going?\u00a0 What\u2019s going to happen?\u00a0 It really is just an extraordinary ending.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 His most famous book, the one that we know best today, is the book <em>The Cost of Discipleship<\/em>.\u00a0 At what point in all of this did he write that book?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong>\u00a0 That\u2019s what I call the \u201cgolden era\u201d of Bonhoeffer.\u00a0 He was, in the mid-30\u2019s \u2013 or, I guess, in the latter part of the \u201830s\u2014\u201835, \u201936, \u201937 and \u201938.\u00a0 He was the leader of an illegal seminary.\u00a0 It was an underground seminary of the confessing church.\u00a0 Those are the good guys who did not go along with the Nazified state church.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIn the course of leading this seminary, he\u2019s trying to train these young men, not just to be religious figures, but to be men of God\u2014to be disciples of Jesus Christ.\u00a0 It was during this period that he wrote this book with the title <em>The Cost of Discipleship.<\/em><em>\u00a0 <\/em>In fact, the German title, <em>Nachfolge<\/em>, is just <em>Discipleshi<\/em>p.\u00a0 What does it mean to belong to the Lord\u2014to be a disciple of Jesus?\u00a0 It doesn\u2019t mean, you know, you just know the Scriptures because the Devil knows the Scriptures; and he can quote it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt means to live in obedience to the Word of God, to know the Word of God, to know the Lord, and then to live your life for the Lord.\u00a0 Bonhoeffer understood that that\u2019s what it is to be a Christian leader\u2014that\u2019s what it is to be a man of God.\u00a0 He was trying to train these young men.\u00a0 It was during this period that he wrote that book and, then, also his famous book <em>Life Together<\/em>.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Of course, with no idea that what he\u2019s writing is going to be put to the ultimate test.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong>\u00a0 No.\u00a0 I think it\u2019s funny\u2014and I think you see this in my book, if you read it\u2014there are moments where Bonhoeffer seems to have premonitions.\u00a0 I don\u2019t mean in some kind of a ghoulish way, but he seems to know that he\u2019s in the palm of God\u2019s hand.\u00a0 He seems to know that, like everyone who is chosen by God, we are walking a precarious path.\u00a0 To walk with the Lord, you don\u2019t know what\u2019s ahead; but you know that, \u201cto know the Lord, is to die to self.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHe was walking with this.\u00a0 I think there\u2019s no other way, really, of putting it than to say that he knew that.\u00a0 We need to know it, too.\u00a0 We need to know that our life really does belong to the Lord, and that we die to self, and we give Him our lives.\u00a0 So we have to ask ourselves, \u201cDo we really give Him our lives, or do we just say that?\u201d\u00a0 Bonhoeffer, I think, really did it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 I\u2019m trying to picture myself in prison, writing love letters\u2014writing about marriage.\u00a0 A friend of mine sent me some quotes from letters and papers from prison that he [Bonhoeffer] had written.\u00a0 He wrote this from prison,\u00a0 \u201cIt is not your love that sustains the marriage; but from now on, the marriage that sustains your love.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 And then another statement that he made and, I mean, again, I\u2019m just picturing where he is and how clear-thinking; but he says, \u201cMarriage is more than your love for each other.\u00a0 It has a higher dignity and power, for it is God\u2019s holy ordinance through which He wills to perpetuate the human race \u2018til the end of time.\u00a0 In your love, you see only your two selves in the world; but in marriage, you are a link in the chain of the generations, which God causes to come and to pass away to His glory and calls into His Kingdom.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI mean, I read that and I went, \u201cWow!\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes; you see, this is the thing with Bonhoeffer.\u00a0 There\u2019s a level of intensity.\u00a0 It seems that every other sentence, you need to get your highlighter out.\u00a0 He really\u2014you can\u2019t read him, you know\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong>\u00a0 That\u2019s really one of the reasons I think the Lord called me to write this book\u2014is to make Bonhoeffer accessible to people who might be put off by some of the density of his writing\u2014to humanize him so that when you do read Bonhoeffer, you feel like, \u201cI know this guy!\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI also put in <em>tons<\/em> of Bonhoeffer quotes in the book to whet people\u2019s appetites because he is such a treasure!\u00a0 He has written so much that is a value to us.\u00a0 I want to lead people to reading Bonhoeffer himself because I think it will bless the church <em>forever<\/em> and bless this generation if the church becomes the church.\u00a0 I think that by reading Bonhoeffer, you can\u2019t help but be led in that direction.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 So, how\u2019d he die?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong>\u00a0 Well, in April of \u201945, he\u2019s removed from Buchenwald; and he\u2019s traveling around in this van with these guards.\u00a0 They\u2019re trying, really, to escape the encroaching red and Allied forces, which are making Germany thinner and thinner by the day.\u00a0 Finally, on April 8<sup>th<\/sup>, he is taken to Flossenburg Concentration Camp on the express orders of Hitler, simply for revenge because the war is ending and Hitler is only three weeks from suicide.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHe\u2019s condemned to death for his role in the involvement to kill Hitler.\u00a0 At dawn on \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tApril 9, 1945, he is hanged.\u00a0 He\u2019s hanged in a concentration camp.\u00a0 His body is thrown on a pile because the crematorium was broken that day.\u00a0 He joins these other victims of the Third Reich; and I think Bonhoeffer would think of it as an honor to die\u2014to join the victims of the Third Reich in the way that he did. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tUltimately, his story is not meant to be a sad story.\u00a0 God doesn\u2019t give us stories to depress us or to make us sad but to inspire us to say, \u201cLook at this life!\u00a0 This is a man who lived his life full-out in obedience to God, and so can we!\u201d\u00a0 God is no respecter of persons.\u00a0 He doesn\u2019t say, \u201cHey, Bonhoeffer\u2019s something; and you\u2019re not.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNo; on the contrary, we are all called to live lives of obedience to the Lord, whatever that means for us.\u00a0 We\u2019re all different.\u00a0 I\u2019m not Bonhoeffer and neither are you, but neither are we supposed to be.\u00a0 We\u2019re supposed to be who we are, in obedience to the Lord.\u00a0 I really believe this story is powerfully inspiring.\u00a0 There\u2019s something about Bonhoeffer\u2019s life which is powerfully inspiring and ultimately leads us closer to God.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI end the book, actually, with a quote from a sermon that he wrote in 1933, where he talks about death and how death is the most terrible thing imaginable, unless it is transformed by faith.\u00a0 If it\u2019s transformed by faith in Jesus Christ, it\u2019s completely different.\u00a0 We know that we\u2019re going to be with Him\u2014for Whom we are created and by Whom we are created.\u00a0 That\u2019s utterly different!\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf you\u2019ve already died to self, to go to be with the Lord is the greatest thing; but we need to know that.\u00a0 He\u2019s preaching this in 1933, and how much more does he know this in 1945?\u00a0 It\u2019s really clear Bonhoeffer knew who he was in Christ, and he really lived that.\u00a0 I do believe God calls us to live that ourselves.\u00a0 This story is meant to be an inspiration to the church today.\u00a0 This is God saying, \u201cYou can live your life like this.\u00a0 That\u2019s why I created you!\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Dietrich Bonhoeffer died at the age of\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong>\u00a0 Thirty-nine.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Thirty-nine.\u00a0 In a very real sense, as you researched him, he became your mentor.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong>\u00a0 Well, you can\u2019t avoid it.\u00a0 I think that that happens to folks who are reading the book.\u00a0 This is my greatest joy and it\u2019s been my prayer\u2014that the Lord would use the story of this man of God to draw His church closer to Himself.\u00a0 You can\u2019t escape it because when you\u2019re spending all this time with Bonhoeffer, you\u2019re also spending time in the Lord\u2019s presence.\u00a0 It\u2019s inescapable.\u00a0 If you\u2019re spending time in the Lord\u2019s presence, guess what?\u00a0 You\u2019ll change!\u00a0 That\u2019s God\u2019s will.\u00a0\u00a0 Yes, that makes me happy to think that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 This has been a great treat for our listeners and I know for our staff, as well.\u00a0 They appreciate you being here.\u00a0 (Applause)\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Thanks for being with us, Eric.\u00a0 I hope you\u2019ll come back and join us and maybe take us into <em>Socrates in the City <\/em>sometime?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Eric:<\/strong>\u00a0 There\u2019s a lot to talk about there.\u00a0 Anytime\u2014I would be delighted to do that.\u00a0 Thanks for having me!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 For listeners who have not yet read your book on Dietrich Bonhoeffer, we\u2019ve got the book in our <em>FamilyLife Today <\/em>Resource Center.\u00a0 Go online at FamilyLifeToday.com for more information on how to get a copy of the book, <em>Bonhoeffer:<\/em><em>\u00a0 <\/em><em>Pastor, Martyr, Prophet, Spy <\/em>by Eric Metaxas.\u00a0 Again, our website is FamilyLifeToday.com; or call toll-free 1-800-358-6329.\u00a0 That\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY\u201d.\u00a0 When you get in touch with us, we\u2019ll let you know how you can get a copy of the book about Dietrich Bonhoeffer sent out to you.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf you don\u2019t already have a copy of Dennis Rainey\u2019s book, <em>Stepping Up:<\/em><em>\u00a0 <\/em><em>A Call to Courageous Manhood, <\/em>we\u2019ll let you know how you can get a copy of that book as well.\u00a0 It\u2019s a great guide for men about what it means to stand up and be God\u2019s man.\u00a0 Again, go to FamilyLifeToday.com; or call toll-free 1-800-FL-TODAY.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd we want to add a quick word of thanks to those of you who help support the ministry of <em>FamilyLife Today.<\/em><em>\u00a0 <\/em>We appreciate you and are glad to have you tuning in each day.\u00a0 We want to thank you, as well, for getting in touch with us and letting us know how God is using this program in your life.\u00a0 To those of you who help support the ministry with donations, we appreciate that as well.\u00a0 In fact, this month, we are making available as a thank-you gift to any of you who can give a donation to support <em>FamilyLife Today, <\/em>a couple of books that have tips on romance\u2014a book for husbands and a book for wives.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAlong with those books, we\u2019ll send along a couple of prayer cards so you can be praying for one another as husband and wife, as well.\u00a0 We appreciate your support of the ministry.\u00a0 Your money helps cover the cost of producing and syndicating this daily radio program, and we are grateful for your support.\u00a0 If you\u2019d like to make a donation online, just go to FamilyLifeToday.com\u2014click the button that says, \u201cI Care\u201d.\u00a0 Make an online donation, and we\u2019ll send these resources out to you.\u00a0 Or call 1-800-FL-TODAY; 1-800-358-6329.\u00a0 You can make a donation over the phone.\u00a0 Again, just ask for the resources you heard us talking about on <em>FamilyLife Today.<\/em><em>\u00a0 <\/em>We would be happy to send those out to you.\u00a0 We really appreciate your support of this ministry.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe hope you have a great weekend.\u00a0 Hope you and your family are able to worship together this weekend, and I hope you can join us back on Monday when we\u2019re going to be joined by pastor and author Chip Ingram.\u00a0 We\u2019re going to talk about love, and dating, and sex\u2014how things are in the culture and how things ought to be biblically.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Chip<\/strong>:\u00a0 I want them to know there is a right way.\u00a0 God is not down on them.\u00a0 He wants to put His arm around them, but you do have to do it His way.\u00a0 There are consequences of living in ways that the culture tells you\u2014that promise great stuff and bring destruction.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 I hope you can be here as we have that conversation.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team.\u00a0 On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine.\u00a0 We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHelp for today.\u00a0 Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you.\u00a0 However, there is a cost to produce them for our website.\u00a0 If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright \u00a9 2012 FamilyLife.\u00a0 All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\t1\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>","theme_header_position":"","post_header_is_sticky":"","is_header_overlay":""},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/302451","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/91"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=302451"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/294104"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=302451"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=302451"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=302451"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=302451"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=302451"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=302451"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}