{"id":302409,"date":"2011-11-23T12:00:00","date_gmt":"2011-11-23T17:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/spiritual-disciplines-of-the-early-churc\/"},"modified":"2011-11-23T12:00:00","modified_gmt":"2011-11-23T17:00:00","slug":"spiritual-disciplines-of-the-early-churc","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/spiritual-disciplines-of-the-early-churc\/","title":{"rendered":"Spiritual Disciplines of the Early Churc"},"content":{"rendered":"","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>How did the early Christians differ from believers now?<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2011-11-23.mp3","podmotor_file_id":"","podmotor_episode_id":"","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:","filesize":"22.75M","filesize_raw":"23859017","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2822],"tags":[4929,4722,4159],"podcast_series":[7841],"cwp_profile":[9167],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-302409","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-growing-in-your-faith","tag-christian-life","tag-christianity","tag-gospel","podcast_series-water-from-a-deep-well","cwp_profile-jerry-sittser","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/302409\/spiritual-disciplines-of-the-early-churc","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/302409\/spiritual-disciplines-of-the-early-churc","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"0EkFIopPPf\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/spiritual-disciplines-of-the-early-churc\/\">Spiritual Disciplines of the Early Churc<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/spiritual-disciplines-of-the-early-churc\/embed\/#?secret=0EkFIopPPf\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Spiritual Disciplines of the Early Churc&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"0EkFIopPPf\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var 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now?","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2011-11-23.pdf","transcript_content":"<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Have you ever considered going into full-time vocational, Christian service?\u00a0 Jerry Sittser says, \u201cIf you\u2019re a follower of Jesus, you <em>are<\/em> in full-time vocational, Christian service.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 There is no arena that\u2019s more, sort of, naturally holy than any other.\u00a0 It\u2019s not more Christian to be a pastor than to be a public school teacher.\u00a0 You can live for God in both of those arenas.\u00a0 That\u2019s a word I think we could benefit from learning.\u00a0 Pastors and so on need to realize that the people in their pews need to be equipped and inspired to live for Christ right where they are.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Wednesday, November 23rd.\u00a0 Our host is the President of FamilyLife\u00ae Dennis Rainey, and I\u2019m Bob Lepine.\u00a0 We\u2019ll think together today about how we can do all things, even eating and drinking, for the glory of God.\u00a0 Stay tuned.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\u00a0 Thanks for joining us.\u00a0 You wouldn\u2019t think that if you were going to have a conversation about the history of the church and God\u2019s work through the centuries that you\u2019d come up with a whole lot that would be controversial in our day, but it\u2019s just not the case.\u00a0 I mean, as a case in point, one of the issues from history is the issue of contemplation\u2014how we meditate and contemplate around the Scriptures.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWell, you can go online today\u2014you can go on the web, and you\u2019ll find folks, who if you even mention the word contemplation\u2014if you\u2019re a contemplative\u2014in fact, if they\u2019re listening right now, we\u2019ll be on their website before the end of today\u2019s program because we just brought up the word.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Some of our listeners may be wondering why Bob is mentioning contemplation\u2014it is because we have taken a journey back in the past in church history\u2014to really the history of Christianity, starting after the time of Christ, with the martyrs\u2014what we\u2019ve already talked about this week, the Desert Saints.\u00a0 We\u2019ve had a church historian who has spent, really, almost 20 years studying church history.\u00a0 Is that right, Jerry?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry: <\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s right.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Of course, that\u2019s Dr. Jerry Sittser who joins us again on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\u00a0 He is a professor at Whitworth University in Spokane, Washington.\u00a0 Is it Spokane (sp\u014d-\u2018kan) or Spokane (sp\u014d-\u2018k\u0101n)? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 Spokane (sp\u014d-\u2018kan).\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Spokane (sp\u014d-\u2018kan); I got it correct.\u00a0 He has written a book called <em>Water from a Deep Well<\/em>.\u00a0 Before I take you into some of those eras, Jerry, you outline 11 different eras that the Christian community has gone through over the past 2,000 years or so.\u00a0 I had to ask you this question, \u201cIf I had the ability to put you in a time machine and to go backwards to any era, which one of those 11 eras would you choose to live and why?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 You want a monastery?\u00a0 Do you want a desert?\u00a0 Do you want the medieval\u2014where do you want\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 \u2014the Reformation?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 \u2014Where do you want to be?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Evangelical; modern missions?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 I think there would be two places.\u00a0 One would be\u2014I\u2019d love to hear John Chrysostom preach.\u00a0 He was a late 4th-, early 5th-century preacher, bishop.\u00a0 Eventually, he became the Archbishop of Constantinople.\u00a0 So, he had to preach to the emperor, and his family, and so on.\u00a0 He was an unbelievable preacher.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIn fact, his name John Chrysostom\u2014Chrysostom is his nickname.\u00a0 It means \u201cgolden-mouth\u201d.\u00a0 When you read his sermons today, they still read well.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHe was prophetic.\u00a0 He could be very direct.\u00a0 He would often challenge the emperor and the upper classes with the way they were spending their money, for example.\u00a0 He did this extemporaneously.\u00a0 Scripture would just pour out of this man\u2019s mouth because, in the six years he spent in isolation, he memorized almost the entire New Testament.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Wow!\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 So, it would just flow out of him.\u00a0 He was an unbelievable preacher.\u00a0 To listen to his sermons would have been a wonderful experience.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe other thing is, I think, I would have liked to have joined Martin Luther in his home with his wife Katherine, their six children, all the students, elderly people, and riffraff who were living with them.\u00a0 He was an excellent conversationalist.\u00a0 It would have been very lively to sit around that table and get Luther going on some subject.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 No, no.\u00a0 He called her, \u201cMy Lord Kate\u201d.\u00a0 (Laughter)\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 There are some husbands who can relate to that.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 I\u2019ve heard a story (I don\u2019t know if it is true or not) that he was in a period of depression.\u00a0 He came down to breakfast one morning, and Kate was dressed all in black.\u00a0 He said to her, \u201cWell, who died that you\u2019re dressed in black?\u201d\u00a0 She said, \u201cWell, based on the way you\u2019ve been acting, I presumed God did.\u201d\u00a0 (Laughter)\u00a0 So, that\u2019s a little of what\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 I hadn\u2019t heard that, but I wouldn\u2019t put it over\u2014I have another one, though.\u00a0 He was\u2014Martin Luther was sitting studying.\u00a0 Of course, all the noise of his home would drive him crazy some times.\u00a0 He locked himself in his study, and she took the hinges off the door to get to him.\u00a0 (Laughter)\u00a0 She was\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 no push over.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 She was a force to be reckoned with\u2014quite a woman.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 She was a lord of sorts.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to go back to the Desert Saints.\u00a0 You can tell I really like these guys.\u00a0 They were eccentric, as we\u2019ve said a bit earlier.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou start the book out talking about early Christian martyrs.\u00a0 You, then, talk about the community of faith and early Christians who stuck together, and who addressed the plagues, and met the needs of people; but this third era, the spirituality of the Desert Saints\u2014these characters who moved away from civilization to struggle\u2014to struggle with the flesh, to struggle with their own passions, their own thinking.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou point out something that they teach us today, that we dare not miss, about how we think really determines what we do.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 Well, I\u2019ll set it up this way.\u00a0 You and I have lived long enough to have seen some people (even our friends) make some decisions that were incredibly stupid and costly.\u00a0 We look at that, and we\u2019re so perplexed.\u00a0 We immediately say to ourselves, \u201cWhat was he\u2014\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis and Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 \u2014\u201cthinking?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Sure.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 Right?\u00a0 Okay.\u00a0 Well, one of the leaders of the Desert Fathers was a man by the name of Evagrius Ponticus.\u00a0 He was kind of the philosopher and psychologist of the desert\u2014he had a very interesting life journey\u2014I tell in the book\u2014the last 16 years he spent in the desert, and he wrote a number of books.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIn one of them, he outlines what he called \u201cThe Eight Deadly Thoughts\u201d.\u00a0 Logismoi is his name.\u00a0 His argument is this:\u00a0 All sin begins with what he called a provocation (what we would call a temptation).\u00a0 We face something that immediately awakens us.\u00a0 Then, he said that leads to a kind of disturbance of the soul, where we face a point of decision:\u00a0 \u201cWhich way are we going to turn?\u00a0 Is it going to be toward or away?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf we turn toward, he says, \u201cThe first thing we do is we engage the sin in our minds.\u00a0 We begin to fantasize.\u201d\u00a0 That\u2019s the word he used, fantasize.\u00a0 We created an alternative reality in the mind of sin, even if we don\u2019t actually do something wrong.\u00a0 This fantasy can exist on its own for months or even years, without actually doing any sin.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHe came up with eight categories of this kind of fantasy, or logismoi, as he called it\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tthings like gluttony, envy, pride, vain glory, and so on.\u00a0 Then, right time, right place, right circumstance, we actually <em>choose<\/em> to sin <em>behaviorally.<\/em>\u00a0 His argument is, by this time, it\u2019s almost too late because we have been cultivating it in our minds for so long.\u00a0 So, the real battle is always in the mind.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 You look at some of the prayers of confession that have been prayed throughout church history; and you see, \u201cLord, we have sinned against You in thought, word, and deed.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 \u201cIn thought, word, and deed.\u201d\u00a0 Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 We don\u2019t tend to think of our thought life as being sinful unless we\u2019re thinking about sexual lust.\u00a0 Most people agree, \u201cOkay, yes, to have sexual lust that you are dwelling on, that\u2019s a sin; but to be lusting after a new car, that\u2019s not really a sin; is it?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 A house, a romance, a food, an ideal vacation, the perfect job\u2014all those kinds of things that can just kind of worm their way into our soul and really over the long-haul pervert us in a lot of ways.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Isn\u2019t this what Jesus was trying to say in Matthew 5 when He said, \u201cYou\u2019ve heard it said, \u2018Do not commit adultery.\u2019 I tell you not to lust in your heart.\u00a0 You\u2019ve heard it said, \u2018Do not murder.\u2019\u00a0 I say don\u2019t be angry?\u201d\u00a0 He\u2019s really saying there are deeper issues than just your behaviors.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 Exactly.\u00a0 These Desert Fathers really focus on that and, therefore, call us to a serious form of self-examination\u2014to be ruthlessly honest with ourselves.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Therein lies part of what my take-away was from reading your book.\u00a0 These saints of old seemed to have time to contemplate (back to a word Bob used earlier), to ponder, to think about God, and purposely remove themselves from the pace of life so that they could truly drink water from the deep well.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tToday, we\u2019re so busy listening to music, doing things on our iPhone\u00ae, on our computer, constantly busying ourselves with activity\u2014we don\u2019t have time to hear God in the midst of the day.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 I don\u2019t think so.\u00a0 I mean, I think, we\u2019re so profoundly distracted\u2014I don\u2019t even think we are aware how distracted we are with the constant noise, the way we\u2019re always checking e-mail, always texting on our phone.\u00a0 I just think we\u2019ve crowded God\u2019s voice out.\u00a0 We simply don\u2019t have enough room to hear anything at all.\u00a0 I do think we can practice some disciplines that will protect us from those kinds of excesses.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou know, we decide we\u2019re not going to check our e-mail after six o\u2019clock; we\u2019re going to spend time with the family, for example.\u00a0 We\u2019re going to read a book.\u00a0 When we go on vacations, we\u2019ll take a break from some things.\u00a0 We\u2019ll do all those little things that are going to protect us from this noisy, distracting kind of world that keeps us sidetracked from the things that matter most.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 You need to know, Jerry, I\u2019m practicing some of the spiritual disciplines that you write about in your book from some of these Desert Saints, those who lived in monasteries, and the mystics of sorts.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThere are so many of these eras that I\u2019d like to discuss\u2014but I\u2019m going to take you to one that is a passion of my heart.\u00a0 I want to see what we can learn about an era you call \u201cordinariness\u201d\u2014the laity movement of the medieval period; is that right?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 The late Middle Ages; correct.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Explain what you mean by that era.\u00a0 Now, you\u2019ve got\u2014again, you\u2019ve got 11 different eras of church history, and you summarize each era in a word.\u00a0 I found this one interesting.\u00a0 Why did you pick this word to describe it?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 Well, the spiritual life in the Middle Ages tilted in the direction of the monastery.\u00a0 Therefore, celibacy, a set of disciplines\u2014disciplines of deprivation and so on\u2014so that, the monastery, which began for very good reasons, became <em>the <\/em>dominate institution of the Middle Ages.\u00a0 Consequently, the form of spiritual life that people practiced tended to lean in a monastic direction.\u00a0 You were holier if you became a monk, less holy if you were a priest, least holy if you were a lay person.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 So, retreating from the culture in a way?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\u00a0 It was more idealized.\u00a0 Now, these monasteries were hardly separate from culture.\u00a0 They were dominant, cultural forces; but when it came to the spiritual life\u2014spiritual practice\u2014not being married was more spiritual than being married, for example\u2014belonging to a monastery was more spiritual than being a regular lay person and this kind of thing.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWith the growth of cities, universities, and the profit economy in the 13th and 14th centuries, a growing number of lay people said, \u201cWe want more.\u00a0 We don\u2019t want to be third-class citizens in the church and in the Kingdom.\u201d\u00a0 They began to seek for a richer, more robust kind of spiritual life.\u00a0 Of course, they had the model of the monastery sitting before them.\u00a0 So, they would create kind of lay monasteries, believe it or not\u2014little communities in the city that people would join.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tUnderneath it was this growing hunger to apply the spiritual life to ordinary life because that\u2019s how most people live.\u00a0 They live as ordinary people.\u00a0 They marry, they raise children, they\u2019re bakers, they\u2019re bankers, they\u2019re merchants of some kind, they just do life in the secular world, and they need help.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 They wanted to make a difference where they lived, and this became a movement during their era.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 It became a movement, especially in the 14th and 15th centuries.\u00a0 There were all kinds of new, little institutions that were born.\u00a0 They\u2019re irrelevant\u2014The Brethren of the Common Life; The Third Order Franciscans, The Beguines for Women.\u00a0 Underneath it was this hunger among laity for a richer, deeper experience of the spiritual life.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat really became a set-up for the Reformation when, finally, the reformers said, \u201cLook, you can be as spiritual as a banker as you can be as a priest.\u00a0 You can be as godly as a married person as you can be as a person who\u2019s taken vows of celibacy.\u201d\u00a0 God wants all of our life experience to be submitted to Him.\u00a0 There is no arena that is more sort of naturally holier than any other.\u00a0 It\u2019s not more Christian to be a pastor than to be a public school teacher.\u00a0 You can live for God in both of those arenas.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, the late medieval ages really sort of leaned toward the Reformation when they rediscovered the value of marriages as spiritual discipline and of our secular vocations as a spiritual discipline.\u00a0 That\u2019s a word I think we could benefit from learning.\u00a0 Pastors and so on need to realize that the people in their pews need to be equipped and inspired to live for Christ, right where they are.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Jerry, I think there is a similar day occurring right now for the church and for laity.\u00a0 I think there is an opportunity for them to engage and be disciples of Jesus Christ in their neighborhoods, their churches, their businesses, and their communities, by taking a stand for what God teaches around marriage and family.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt\u2019s why we\u2019ve created a whole array of tools to put in their hands to help them make a difference like the <em>Homebuilders Couple Series<\/em>\u00ae, a small group Bible study that they can teach in their neighborhood to other couples.\u00a0 We\u2019ve created the <em>Art of Marriage<\/em>\u00ae; Bob Lepine created that.\u00a0 We\u2019ve also created another resource called <em>LifeReady<\/em>\u00ae<em> Marriage Oneness<\/em>, which is an eight-session DVD-assisted discipleship training course.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAll of these were designed to be put in the hands of the laity, just like occurred in times past to make a difference where they live.\u00a0 I think this is a lesson we can learn from this era; don\u2019t you?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 I think it is a wonderful lesson.\u00a0 There\u2019s another interesting little theme to emphasize here.\u00a0 That was the early Christian catechumenate, which again was training normal people\u2014people living in the ordinary world to be disciples of Christ.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe laity, of course, has become a kind of derogatory term; but when you think about it, laity find themselves in circumstances where they\u2019re in the best position to live out discipleship in the normal world.\u00a0 Think about it, the three major responsibilities of people who are not pastors or full-time servants in a church\u2014they\u2019re married (many of them, not all of them), they\u2019re raising children, and they are doing some kind of secular work.\u00a0 That\u2019s most of their daylight hours.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnything that\u2019s going to equip them to serve in those spheres for Christ, in my mind, is a good thing.\u00a0 We do have some resources from history that are going to inspire us and move us in that direction.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 I want to take you out to the last two eras that you describe in your book.\u00a0 One is the era for evangelicals; the other is for pioneer missionaries who have gone to the world.\u00a0 How did you describe our era of evangelicals and of pioneer missionaries going to the world?\u00a0 I\u2019m assuming you would say that\u2019s the era in which we are alive right now; correct?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 It is.\u00a0 It is very dominate in our period.\u00a0 In the case of evangelicals, it was their emphasis on conversion, on actually choosing to follow Christ.\u00a0 So, conversion was a very important motif in that evangelical era, which we live in today.\u00a0 Billy Graham would be one of the greatest symbols of that evangelical period, but the other thing that\u2019s characterized evangelicalism has been their entrepreneurship.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou think about what evangelicals around the world have done in the last 200 years: the hospitals they\u2019ve started; the schools of education around the world; the various mission agencies; the relief organizations.\u00a0 Evangelicals have always been activists because they want to live out the Gospel in the world.\u00a0 So, that\u2019s been the characteristic of the evangelical period.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIn the case of pioneer missionaries, it\u2019s been risk-taking and single-mindedness.\u00a0 Those early stories of missionaries are harrowing to read.\u00a0 I mean, they\u2019re kind of crazy in a way.\u00a0 I think there were some of them who were crazy; but their courage, their commitment, their willingness to suffer loss, to be able to extend the reach of the church around the world, to me, is so inspiring and impressive, especially if we can kind of prevent ourselves from some of the excesses that did characterize them; for example, their lack of commitment to family, marriage, their compromise in some of those areas\u2014not all of them did it, by the way.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Well, I have to tell you, Jerry, as I was reading your book, I kept comparing my own walk with Christ and with God\u2014and the title of your book\u2014the title of your book is <em>Water from a Deep Well<\/em>.\u00a0 After I\u2019d waded through the waters from all 11 eras, I thought, \u201cMy life isn\u2019t a deep well; it\u2019s a mud puddle.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI\u2019ve read these guys and the lessons they pass on to me.\u00a0 It\u2019s my hope that, not only my life would be impacted by what you\u2019ve written here, but that it would\u2014it would impact our listeners, too\u2014that they would take a drink from the deep well and that they would take a step back, take a look at their own walk with Christ, and go, \u201cWhat can I learn from times past?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 One of the things that was curious to me as I read through the book\u2014and I\u2019ve been struck by this as I\u2019ve looked at church history\u2014it seemed to me that throughout the history of the church, the average Christian has known more or had a deeper understanding of God and the Scriptures than many modern evangelicals today.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tA farmer in the 17th century, who was a follower of Christ, would have known more theology than most lay people who have been a part of an evangelical church for\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t20 years.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 At least, since the Reformation, that would be the case; yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 I think the point you are making is, \u201cIt\u2019s time for all of us to cinch it up and dig a little deeper.\u201d\u00a0 Right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Well, at the beginning of the book, Jerry quotes C.S. Lewis, I believe, who said, \u201cIn any era, it would be wise of a follower of Christ to allow a fresh sea breeze to blow through his soul by reading some old books from other eras.\u201d\u00a0 In essence, what Jerry has done here\u2014I have no idea how many books, Jerry, that contributed to this book; but what you\u2019ve done is synthesized a lot of writings from 2,000 years ago, all the way to the present.\u00a0 You take us into the company of what you call super-Christian heroes.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou don\u2019t paint them as someone who is unattainable, but someone who can rub shoulders with us and challenge us to go deeper in our own faith and our own walk with Christ.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tJerry, one of your other books, <em>A Grace Disguised<\/em>, ministered to Barbara and me profoundly a number of years ago.\u00a0 I think this book, right here, is going to cause some conflict in our marriage over who gets to read it again because I want to go back through it and underline even more from it.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI appreciate you.\u00a0 Glad you were on the broadcast.\u00a0 Hope you\u2019ll come back and join us again soon.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 Gladly.\u00a0 It\u2019s been wonderful.\u00a0 Thank you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 With that, let me encourage listeners to get their own copy of your book, <em>Water from a Deep Well<\/em>, which we have in our <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Resource Center.\u00a0 Go online at FamilyLifeToday.com; and you can find out more about Jerry Sittser\u2019s book, <em>Water from a Deep Well<\/em>.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe also have the book you mentioned, Dennis, <em>A Grace Disguised<\/em>, which is really an outstanding resource for people who are experiencing loss.\u00a0 In fact, the subtitle is <em>How the Soul Grows Through Loss<\/em>.\u00a0 It\u2019s a book that you wrote, Jerry, after the death of your wife, one of your children, and your mother-in-law.\u00a0 Really, it\u2019s an outstanding book; and we would recommend that to you as well.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tFind out more about both books online at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call us\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t1-800-FL-TODAY is the number\u20141-800- \u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then, the word, \u201cTODAY\u201d.\u00a0 We\u2019ll make arrangements to get a copy of either or both of these books sent out to you.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, early next month, we are going to be sending out the new edition of our twice a month e-magazine.\u00a0 It\u2019s called <em>The Family Room<\/em>.\u00a0 In the upcoming issue, we\u2019ve got suggestions for you and your family about how you can keep Christ at the center of your Christmas celebration this year.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis and Barbara Rainey have an article on ways to keep your marriage fresh.\u00a0 In fact, they\u2019ve got five very practical suggestions on how to breathe a little fresh air into your marriage.\u00a0 The e-magazine, <em>The Family Room<\/em>, is absolutely free.\u00a0 We\u2019d love to have you on the mailing list.\u00a0 If you\u2019re not currently receiving this e-mail twice a month, go to FamilyLifeToday.com, and you can sign up there.\u00a0 Just click the link that says, \u201cThe Family Room\u201d, and you can get signed up online.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAgain, the website is FamilyLifeToday.com; and you sign up when you click the link, \u201cThe Family Room\u201d.\u00a0 When you do that, we\u2019ll get the next issue of our e-magazine sent out to you.\u00a0 I think you\u2019ll enjoy reading this when it comes to your inbox a couple of times every month.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI hope you can be back with us again tomorrow.\u00a0 Here in the United States, it\u2019s going to be Thanksgiving tomorrow.\u00a0 Hope you can give part of your Thanksgiving Day to be with us.\u00a0 We\u2019re going to hear a message from Pastor Bobby Scott about how we can continue to honor and praise God in the midst of challenging circumstances.\u00a0 We\u2019ll hear about the fire that burned down his family home on tomorrow\u2019s program.\u00a0 I hope you can tune in for that.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team.\u00a0 On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine.\u00a0 We will see you back tomorrow for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHelp for today.\u00a0 Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you.\u00a0 However, there is a cost to produce them for our website.\u00a0 If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright \u00a9 2011 FamilyLife.\u00a0 All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\t1\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>","theme_header_position":"","post_header_is_sticky":"","is_header_overlay":""},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/302409","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/91"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=302409"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/294104"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=302409"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=302409"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=302409"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=302409"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=302409"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=302409"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}