{"id":302408,"date":"2011-11-22T12:00:00","date_gmt":"2011-11-22T17:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/the-spirituality-of-the-early-christians\/"},"modified":"2011-11-22T12:00:00","modified_gmt":"2011-11-22T17:00:00","slug":"the-spirituality-of-the-early-christians","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/the-spirituality-of-the-early-christians\/","title":{"rendered":"The Spirituality of the Early Christians"},"content":{"rendered":"","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Can history be a valuable spiritual resource for us?<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2011-11-22.mp3","podmotor_file_id":"","podmotor_episode_id":"","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:","filesize":"23.17M","filesize_raw":"24296504","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2822],"tags":[4929,4722,4159],"podcast_series":[7841],"cwp_profile":[9167],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-302408","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-growing-in-your-faith","tag-christian-life","tag-christianity","tag-gospel","podcast_series-water-from-a-deep-well","cwp_profile-jerry-sittser","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/302408\/the-spirituality-of-the-early-christians","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/302408\/the-spirituality-of-the-early-christians","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"gmLnHpBo5b\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/the-spirituality-of-the-early-christians\/\">The Spirituality of the Early Christians<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/the-spirituality-of-the-early-christians\/embed\/#?secret=gmLnHpBo5b\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;The Spirituality of the Early Christians&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"gmLnHpBo5b\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"uagb_featured_image_src":{"full":["https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg",508,508,false]},"uagb_author_info":{"display_name":"kfairris@familylife.com","author_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/author\/kfairrisfamilylife-com\/"},"uagb_comment_info":0,"uagb_excerpt":"Can history be a valuable spiritual resource for us?","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2011-11-22.pdf","transcript_content":"<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0When was the last time you did something purposefully or intentionally\u2014that you knew would make life harder for you?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tJerry Sittser says that\u2019s what the Desert Fathers chose to do centuries ago.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 You\u2019ll notice most of us try to avoid struggle like the plague.\u00a0 If we struggle, it\u2019s because it\u2019s been <em>imposed<\/em> on us.\u00a0 You know, we go through a hard time\u2014we\u2019re fired from our job, or have marital problems, or a wayward child\u2014whatever it happens to be.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThey chose struggle because they considered it an essential dimension of the Christian faith.\u00a0 The goal is <em>not<\/em> to overcome our problems so that we can live a nice, comfortable life.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Tuesday, November 22nd.\u00a0 Our host is the President of FamilyLife\u00ae, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.\u00a0 Today, we\u2019ll find out some of the things we can learn from, not only the Desert Fathers, but from many of our brothers and sisters who have lived in past centuries.\u00a0 Stay tuned.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 And welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today.<\/em><em>\u00a0 <\/em>Thanks for joining us.\u00a0 You know, from time to time, people will ask me about books that I\u2019ve read.\u00a0 They\u2019ll say, \u201cIf you had to pick the most influential books you\u2019ve read over your lifetime, what would they be?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI\u2019ve got kind of a go-to list that I\u2019ll go to.\u00a0 I haven\u2019t really thought about this until recently; but one of the things I\u2019d go to is not a book that I read, but a series of lectures I listened to.\u00a0 Back about 15 or 20 years ago, I bought a series of 50 lectures on cassette tape.\u00a0 For our younger listeners, this is how your parents used to listen to audio\u2014it was on a little thing called a cassette tape.\u00a0 (Laughter)\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt\u2019s an old, ancient contraption.\u00a0 But I bought these tapes, and it was 50 lectures on church history.\u00a0 I bought them, just kind of thought, \u201cThis will be interesting to see what I pick up from it.\u201d\u00a0 Well, at the end of listening to all 50 lectures, I was <em>stunned <\/em>by the impact it had had on me because it showed me, first of all, that many of the theological questions we are wrestling with in our day have already been wrestled with by minds many times sharper than ours.\u00a0 They\u2019ve been answered well by those folks.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSecondly, it showed me that it was really narcissistic to think of the fact that God was only at work in our day and in our time.\u00a0 To see God at work throughout the last 2,000 years of the history of the church opened my eyes to stuff I hadn\u2019t really stopped and thought about before.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 It\u2019s why you and I wanted to bring our guest into the studio today\u2014to give them a little bit of a church history lesson.\u00a0 I\u2019d like to welcome Dr. Jerry Sittser back to the broadcast.\u00a0 Jerry, welcome back.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 Thank you, Dennis and Bob.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 It\u2019s good to rub shoulders with you again.\u00a0 He\u2019s written a book called <em>Water from a Deep Well<\/em>.\u00a0 Jerry is a professor at Whitworth University, father of three, a beekeeper of notoriety with his daughter, Catherine\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 You didn\u2019t mention that he\u2019s also a newlywed.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 He is a newlywed.\u00a0 Some of our listeners have read your book, <em>A Grace Disguised; <\/em>and they\u2019re going, \u201cReally?!\u00a0 Really?!\u201d\u00a0 Introduce us to Patricia.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 After almost 20 years of single fatherhood, I took the plunge, at the age of 60, into matrimonial bliss once again. (Laughter)\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 And you had an interesting\u2014as we were talking about this\u2014you had an interesting perspective.\u00a0 You said you did not marry your wife for love.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 No, that was Martin Luther.\u00a0 (Laughter)\u00a0 Bob, I\u2019m on radio here, and she may be listening; and this would <em>not <\/em>be a good thing at all.\u00a0 (Laughter)\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 No, no.\u00a0 You\u2019re still on your honeymoon!\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 I did marry her out of love.\u00a0 I will say, though, in all seriousness, that I view marriage as a kind of spiritual discipline.\u00a0 I\u2019m not stretching it to say that my own knowledge of the history of the church has really helped me to understand marriage, not simply as an institution that assures eternal happiness and bliss, but as an institution that God has established by which to grow us as followers of Jesus\u2014as mature disciples.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt is not a stretch for me to say, honestly, that I view marriage a lot like monastic institutions in the Middle Ages.\u00a0 It\u2019s a setting in which God puts us\u2014a setting that requires discipline and commitment, tenacity, growth of character, and conviction.\u00a0 You learn how to love a woman or\u2014as the case might be\u2014a man over a 30-, 40-, or 50-year period of time.\u00a0 You are accomplishing a great thing\u2014and to raise children on top of that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Jerry, I want you to know, Bob and I have been doing radio now for almost 18 years.\u00a0 You\u2019re the first guest to ever compare marriage to a monastic experience.\u00a0 (Laughter)\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 And, Dennis, I assure you there are some differences between living in a monastery and being married.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes, I would think.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWell, first of all, I want to congratulate you on your monastic experience\u2014your marriage to Patricia.\u00a0 I also want to congratulate you on your book.\u00a0 I\u2019ve really enjoyed it.\u00a0 It\u2019s really a history from the early martyrs to modern missionaries.\u00a0 It\u2019s a history of church history.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tJerry, you trace Christianity through 11 eras.\u00a0 As I mentioned, you start with the martyrs and you end with modern missionaries.\u00a0 Why did you start with martyrs?\u00a0 Obviously, it\u2019s where the Christian church starts; but what\u2019s the benefit for us today to read the stories of these martyrs?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 Well, it was chronological; but there was a more fundamental reason as I read a lot of these martyr accounts and, of course, all kinds of other literature on the early Christian period.\u00a0 I realized that martyrdom was almost essential to our understanding of Christianity and, especially, Christian spirituality because the martyrs died, basically, for one reason\u2014they called Jesus, \u201cLord.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt is that commitment to the lordship of Christ that really sets Christianity apart as a unique religion.\u00a0 Here is God, Who has come to us as Jesus Christ, born in a stable, growing up as a common person and living in a small town (Nazareth).\u00a0 He launches in a three-year public ministry, and then he is ignominiously crucified, a brutal form of execution that the Romans invented.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tEnd of story.\u00a0 End of story.\u00a0 That\u2019s what <em>would have <\/em>happened had there not been, three days later, a resurrection.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 Not a resuscitation, a resurrection!\u00a0 That set the Christian faith in motion.\u00a0 So people rightly would call Jesus, \u201cLord.\u201d\u00a0 He is God in human flesh.\u00a0 That\u2019s why those early martyrs suffered.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, chances are I\u2019m not going to suffer martyrdom and neither are you\u2014but that we call Jesus, \u201cLord\u201d is as relevant today as it was 2,000 years ago.\u00a0 Christianity entered a pluralistic world, just like ours is pluralistic.\u00a0 There were lots of religious options\u2014they all had their own time in history.\u00a0 Rome tolerated all those various religious options\u2014it loved pluralism as long as you bowed the knee to Rome itself.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe live in a pluralistic age today.\u00a0 It\u2019s just as tough to call Jesus, \u201cLord\u201d today as it was 2,000 years ago, even if we don\u2019t have to suffer literal martyrdom.\u00a0 That\u2019s where Christian spirituality must begin.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 In China today or in Iran today, they would face similar consequences to those early Christian martyrs.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 They would.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 If you name the name of Christ, you could lose your life.\u00a0 In our culture, if you name the name of Christ, it might actually help your insurance business grow a little bit or it could get you a few more customers here and there.\u00a0 That perverts our way of thinking about what it is that we\u2019re actually committing our lives to; doesn\u2019t it?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 If we not only call on the name of Christ, but if we live with Him as Lord, it <em>is <\/em>going to have long-term consequences in terms of the values that we embrace, the way we treat people, the way we steward our resources, the practices that we follow, the lifestyle that we pursue, and so on.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 It\u2019s all going to have long-term consequences for our lives.\u00a0 So I want to suggest that\u2019s where it has to begin.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 I love what you said in your book.\u00a0 You said, \u201cThe stories of martyrs don\u2019t make me want to die a martyr\u2019s death, but <em>live <\/em>a martyr\u2019s life.\u201d\u00a0 Therein is the message for those of us today.\u00a0 There needs to be more of us confessing Jesus Christ as Lord in our neighborhoods, the marketplace, at school, as we go about our duties\u2014regardless of our responsibilities, we need to represent Him first and foremost.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 If the early martyrs had simply considered Jesus a religious option, they wouldn\u2019t have suffered.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 You tell the story of a courtroom scene that was from Justin Martyr\u2019s <em>Second Apology<\/em>.\u00a0 I think it\u2019s a great picture of courage, not only of a woman, but also of an observer in the courtroom.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 Right.\u00a0 She\u2019s being dragged before the court because she had become a Christian.\u00a0 Her husband accused her, not of being unfaithful, but basically of crowding him morally.\u00a0 So he drags her in front of the court, and she is condemned to death.\u00a0 Somebody, as an observer, is there and protests and says, \u201cThis is not right!\u00a0 She has not been accused of a crime!\u00a0 She\u2019s not done anything wrong.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe judge looks at him and says, \u201cWell, are you a Christian, too?\u201d\u00a0 He says, \u201cYes, I am.\u201d\u00a0 That\u2019s enough, and he\u2019s dragged off to martyrdom.\u00a0 Then, another person.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou\u2019ll notice, in all three of those cases, they were accused of only one thing\u2014of bearing a name\u2014not a crime, but a name.\u00a0 It was the name itself that was enough to convict a person.\u00a0 \u201cI am a Christian.\u201d\u00a0 You see, in a lot of these martyr accounts, that\u2019s all one has to say, \u201cI\u2019m a Christian.\u201d\u00a0 That\u2019s enough.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 And they could have kept silent; but chose not to keep silent, knowing the consequences.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 They could have kept silent or they could have said, \u201cWell, I like Jesus among these other kinds of gods.\u201d\u00a0 No problem.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 There was another era.\u00a0 I have to tell you, this may be\u2014I kind of like truth that is stranger than fiction\u2014but it was the era of Desert Saints. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 Desert Fathers and Mothers; right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Who actually chose to struggle.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes, they withdrew into the wilderness\u2014the desert\u2014especially in the eastern Mediterranean.\u00a0 That desert typified a place of loneliness, and isolation, and struggle; but it was also outside the mainstream.\u00a0 That\u2019s why they chose it.\u00a0 They wanted to withdraw from sort of mainstream Christianity, which had become increasingly favored by the state and enjoying cultural privilege.\u00a0 They thought that was a compromise of the Gospel.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThey were nicknamed, \u201cthe athletes of God,\u201d or \u201cbloodless martyrs\u201d.\u00a0 In other words, people who were living a martyr\u2019s life, just like before.\u00a0 They wanted to normalize the life of struggle in the Christian faith.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou\u2019ll notice most of us try to avoid struggle like the plague.\u00a0 If we struggle, it\u2019s because it\u2019s been <em>imposed<\/em> on us.\u00a0 You know, we go through a hard time\u2014we\u2019re fired from our job, we have marital problems, or a wayward child\u2014whatever it happens to be.\u00a0 They chose struggle because they considered it an essential dimension of discipleship.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 When you say they chose struggle, they didn\u2019t go in and say, \u201cFire me,\u201d or \u201cI quit\u201d; but they didn\u2019t steer away; right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 They didn\u2019t do that; but I mean by struggle\u2014is they practiced severe forms of self-examination.\u00a0 They practiced disciplines like fasting, vigils, poverty, and chastity.\u00a0 They sought the face of God.\u00a0 They prayed in a regular rhythm.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Tell about the houses that they lived in and just how they punished the flesh.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 They did.\u00a0 The technical word is \u201cascetic.\u201d\u00a0 They were very ascetic; that is they practiced what I call disciplines of deprivation.\u00a0 They would live in caves, or they would live in huts, or small settlements.\u00a0 They would usually gather\u2014a collection of them would gather\u2014around a mentor.\u00a0 They called him an abba.\u00a0 Then they would meet with that mentor on weekends.\u00a0 They would study Scripture; they would talk; they would pray; they would discuss how to live out the Christian life; and then they would separate.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThey practiced their disciplines.\u00a0 They usually had a trade they would practice; for example, weaving mats, or ropes, and that sort of thing.\u00a0 They would give to the poor; and they, themselves, would live in poverty.\u00a0 They look really isolated, but they were closer to civilization than you would think.\u00a0 They exercised a lot more <em>influence<\/em> than we would think, too, because a lot of people came out to see them\u2014they were so fascinated by them.\u00a0 So there wasn\u2019t quite the isolation that we would think.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Jerry, you tell a story (in your book) about one of these young men who was being mentored.\u00a0 His name was Abba John.\u00a0 He had been struggling with his passions.\u00a0 Of course, the mentor had told him to memorize Scripture.\u00a0 He\u2019d practiced some spiritual disciplines; and he came back and said, \u201cI\u2019m at rest.\u00a0 There is no more war of my flesh and the Spirit.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI just thought this was a great picture because this is the opposite of Christianity today\u2014it seems, in America.\u00a0 The abba warned him (quote), \u201cGo and ask the Lord to stir a new war in you.\u00a0 Fighting is good for the soul.\u201d\u00a0 What these guys did is\u2014they believed that the soul needed struggle.\u00a0 The soul needed to have tension against it so that it would grow in dependency and knowledge of God.\u00a0 We\u2019re in need of that message today; aren\u2019t we?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 We are.\u00a0 It\u2019s interesting their favorite metaphor to describe Christian discipleship was athletics.\u00a0 They wanted to produce spiritual athletes.\u00a0 Now think about what an athlete does.\u00a0 They live in tension all the time.\u00a0 They do drills; they do laps\u2014whatever the athletic practice happens to be.\u00a0 They have a coach.\u00a0 They\u2019re instructed.\u00a0 There\u2019s a lot of repetition involved.\u00a0 The way you build skill and strength is by that kind of tension.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThey said that should be a regular feature of the Christian faith.\u00a0 The goal is <em>not <\/em>to overcome our problems so we can live a nice, comfortable life.\u00a0 They believe that life in this world should be characterized by that kind of struggle of discipleship and that we should <em>choose <\/em>things that put us on the edge and push us to grow as followers of Jesus.\u00a0 So I think that\u2019s a marvelous image to use\u2014the life of struggle.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Everything within me wants to move to the life of ease.\u00a0 Another quote you had\u2014you\u2019re a beekeeper\u2014another quote you had in here that I think is a great image of the culture we\u2019re living in today\u2014it was from another abba who made this statement\u2014he said, \u201cJust as the bees are driven out by smoke and their honey is taken away from them, so a life of ease drives out the fear of the Lord and takes away all good works.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI really like that because everything within my flesh wants to move to the comfort zone.\u00a0 What these desert saints were pressing one another to do was press into the conflict.\u00a0 Now, they may have abused it and gone too far\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 They did.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 \u2014and become a bit eccentric about it, but their message today is one worth heeding as a follower of Christ.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes, I want to ask you about that eccentricity because you haven\u2019t taken on the Desert Fathers as your model.\u00a0\u00a0 You haven\u2019t sold your home, and moved to a cave, and chosen to abandon any comfort in life.\u00a0 What have you learned from them, and what are you not imitating that they took on?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 Well, they were excessive. I admit that in the book.\u00a0 I\u2019ll admit that on the radio, and I\u2019ll admit it everywhere.\u00a0 They were an odd collection of people.\u00a0 Having said that\u2014 that call to robust discipleship\u2014that call to <em>choose <\/em>a way of life that pushes us to be followers of Jesus in day-to-day\u2014that even calls us to sacrifice things for the good of the Kingdom\u2014for the work of the Kingdom\u2014strikes me as being a very relevant message for us today.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAgain, they used the metaphor of athletics.\u00a0 We need to submit ourselves, if you will, to a kind of training routine.\u00a0 As Dennis said, I think a lot of that has been lost.\u00a0 We idealize the garden\u2014and what we mean is this perfect set of circumstances that are going to make us happy.\u00a0 That will change from person to person.\u00a0 It\u2019s going to be a nice house in a gated community; three kids; 10 grandchildren; a round of golf on the weekends\u2014whatever it happens to be, that will vary from person to person.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tGod wants to use an imperfect world to make <em>us<\/em> into a garden\u2014as people.\u00a0 That is not going to happen if we idealize this perfect state because <em>we\u2019re <\/em>not going to change.\u00a0 We, as imperfect people, are going to try to create an ideal, perfect world instead of God using an imperfect world to make us into pure and perfect people.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 You know, Jerry, we come to the Desert Fathers or some of the later mystics, or some of these people throughout the history of the church who went too far; and I think we have a tendency to say, \u201cWell, we can\u2019t really learn much from them.\u00a0 I mean, look where their pursuit took them.\u00a0 We\u2019ve got to be careful.\u201d\u00a0 We do tend to throw the baby out with the bath water at that point and say, \u201cI\u2019m not even going to study the Desert Fathers, or the mystics, or the contemplatives, or any of these other groups, because it led them to error.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 That\u2019s right.\u00a0 I use a phrase in the book\u2014it is a Latin phrase\u2014<em>abusus non tollit usus:<\/em><em>\u00a0 <\/em>\u201cAbuses do not nullify uses.\u201d\u00a0 Okay, now I\u2019ll ask you two guys, \u201cYou do the marriage stuff; right?\u00a0 Has marriage ever been abused?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob and<\/strong> <strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Sure.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 Is that an argument against marriage?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 No.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 What is an argument for?\u2014right marriage\u2014good marriage\u2014healthy marriage.\u00a0 Abuses of something\u2014in the history of Christianity\u2014there have always been abuses\u2014abuses of disciplines, abuses of sacraments, even abuses of conversion.\u00a0 We all call ourselves evangelical here; but there have been lots of abuses of that, too; right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 So when you use abuse as an argument against the thing itself, you miss out on a lot.\u00a0 What we need to do is reclaim the good that was in it.\u00a0 That takes discipline, and practice, and hard work.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 So, your take-away from the martyrs and from the Desert Saints, as you look at your own Christian faith and your own walk with Christ\u2014\u201cHow is Jerry Sittser different today, or what are you practicing that you learned from these two eras?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 I would say Christian athleticism, in a way.\u00a0 In other words, to be as serious about discipleship as an athlete is about training\u2014but always to do it in an environment of grace\u2014grace!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Practically, what does that look like for you?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 Oh, it has to do with the way I make decisions about spending money; the way I treat people; how I invite them into my home; the kind of rhythm that I follow from day-to-day\u2014all of those kinds of little choices that have a cumulative effect.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 I\u2019m hearing you saying that you\u2019re putting on your track shoes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 I\u2019m trying to.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Every day.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jerry:<\/strong>\u00a0 Very imperfectly.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Well, you know, the Scriptures say that we are to discipline ourselves for the purpose of godliness.\u00a0 The word \u201cdiscipline ourselves\u201d, in the Greek, is the word <em>gymnadzo,<\/em> where we get our word \u201cgymnasium\u201d.\u00a0 It\u2019s really saying, \u201cGo to the gym.\u00a0 Work out.\u00a0 In order to have godliness appear in your life, it\u2019s going to take a workout.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 And there may be a listener wondering why they\u2019re hearing a message like this on a <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> program.\u00a0 This has everything to do with how you become a godly husband, godly wife, father, mother, grandfather.\u00a0 It is <em>the most important <\/em>spiritual commitment of our lives that will shape our earthly relationships and impact their outcome.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 And I think it\u2019s one of the things that, as a ministry, we\u2019ve said is going to be at the core of what we\u2019re all about.\u00a0 We\u2019re going to talk about marriage and family, but we start first with you and your relationship with God and getting that right because that\u2019s the foundation for everything else.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 If you\u2019re not growing there, you\u2019re never going to have the marriage and family God designed you to have.\u00a0 That\u2019s why I would encourage you to get Jerry\u2019s book.\u00a0 This is going to challenge your preconceptions of what Christianity is and what a walk with God looks like.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Well, it\u2019s going to introduce you to some of your crazy uncles in the faith\u2014and some of the folks throughout\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Well, these guys from the Desert Saints\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Right\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 One of them put a stone in his mouth and kept it there for three years.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Like I said, \u201cSome of the crazy uncles that we\u2019ve got.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 The reason he did that was to get rid of gossip from his tongue.\u00a0 He wanted to remind himself of a spiritual discipline to control his tongue, and he left the stone there.\u00a0 I\u2019m just trying to figure out, \u201cHow in the world, you would eat?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 I\u2019m thinking maybe we should sell some \u201cgossip stones\u201d in our <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Resource Center.\u00a0 \u201cYou could go online and order\u201d\u2014No, sorry!\u00a0 (Laughter)\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat you can go online and order is Jerry Sittser\u2019s book, <em>Water from a Deep Well; <\/em>and we have <em>that<\/em> in our <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Resource Center.\u00a0 Go to FamilyLifeToday.com for more information on how to get a copy of the book\u2014FamilyLifeToday.com\u2014or give us a call at 1-800-358-6329; that is 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word,\u00a0 \u201cTODAY\u201d.\u00a0 When you get in touch with us, mention that you\u2019d like the book you heard us talking about on the radio\u2014the book, <em>Water from a Deep Well\u2014<\/em>and we\u2019ll make arrangements to get a copy of it sent out to you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, I wanted to make sure that all of our listeners are aware (and I think many of them aren\u2019t aware) that we produce a twice-a-month e-magazine called, <em>The Family Room<\/em>.\u00a0 It\u2019s a great publication that comes out at the beginning of the month and the middle of the month.\u00a0 It\u2019s full of articles, and it will help you strengthen your marriage and your family.\u00a0 It\u2019s absolutely free.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tFor example, coming up in the next issue, there\u2019s an article about how to keep Christ at the center of your Christmas; and then there\u2019s an article by Dennis and Barbara on ways to keep your marriage fresh.\u00a0 They\u2019ve got five suggestions for you on how to breathe a little fresh air back into your marriage.\u00a0 These are the kinds of things that come out in every issue, and we\u2019d love to have you as a subscriber.\u00a0\u00a0 It doesn\u2019t cost anything.\u00a0 All you have to do is go to FamilyLifeToday.com and click on the link for \u201cThe Family Room\u201d.\u00a0 Sign up; and when the next issue comes out, we\u2019ll get it sent out to you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe hope a lot of you will sign up and start getting <em>The Family Room<\/em> sent directly to you, twice a month.\u00a0 I think you\u2019ll really enjoy it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to encourage you to be back with us again tomorrow when we\u2019re going to continue our conversation with Jerry Sittser, talking about what we can learn from our brothers and sisters who lived centuries, even millennia, ago.\u00a0 I hope you can tune in for that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team.\u00a0 On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I\u2019m Bob Lepine.\u00a0 We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today.<\/em>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHelp for today.\u00a0 Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you.\u00a0 However, there is a cost to produce them for our website.\u00a0 If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright \u00a9 2011 FamilyLife.\u00a0 All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\t1\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>","theme_header_position":"","post_header_is_sticky":"","is_header_overlay":""},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/302408","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/91"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=302408"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/294104"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=302408"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=302408"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=302408"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=302408"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=302408"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=302408"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}