{"id":302391,"date":"2011-10-31T11:00:00","date_gmt":"2011-10-31T15:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/why-our-kids-are-leaving-the-faith\/"},"modified":"2011-10-31T11:00:00","modified_gmt":"2011-10-31T15:00:00","slug":"why-our-kids-are-leaving-the-faith","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/why-our-kids-are-leaving-the-faith\/","title":{"rendered":"Why Our Kids Are Leaving the Faith"},"content":{"rendered":"","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Do you have a teen straying from the faith?<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2011-10-31.mp3","podmotor_file_id":"","podmotor_episode_id":"","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:","filesize":"26.88M","filesize_raw":"28181299","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2821],"tags":[4722,4159,5182],"podcast_series":[7836],"cwp_profile":[9246,9244],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-302391","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-reaching-out","tag-christianity","tag-gospel","tag-prodigal","podcast_series-generation-ex-christian","cwp_profile-drew-dyck","cwp_profile-rob-rienow","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/302391\/why-our-kids-are-leaving-the-faith","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/302391\/why-our-kids-are-leaving-the-faith","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"7eBFFEhRea\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/why-our-kids-are-leaving-the-faith\/\">Why Our Kids Are Leaving the Faith<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/why-our-kids-are-leaving-the-faith\/embed\/#?secret=7eBFFEhRea\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Why Our Kids Are Leaving the Faith&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"7eBFFEhRea\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"uagb_featured_image_src":{"full":["https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg",508,508,false]},"uagb_author_info":{"display_name":"kfairris@familylife.com","author_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/author\/kfairrisfamilylife-com\/"},"uagb_comment_info":0,"uagb_excerpt":"Do you have a teen straying from the faith?","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2011-10-31.pdf","transcript_content":"<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0There are a lot of young people today who, after they graduate from high school, are turning their back on the church and, in some cases, on their Christian faith.\u00a0 Author Drew Dyck says that one reason why that\u2019s the case is because some youth pastors are giving spiritual pep talks each week instead of giving spiritual substance.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Drew:<\/strong>\u00a0 Church researcher, Ed Stetzer, describes most youth groups in this country as \u201cholding tanks with pizza.\u201d\u00a0 Listen, I have nothing against video games or pizza; but they\u2019re tragic replacements for spiritual formation and for biblical education.\u00a0 We need to do a better job of giving kids a faith that will survive those inevitable assaults that they\u2019ll experience when they go to college and off into the real world.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Monday, October 31<sup>st<\/sup>.\u00a0 Our host is the President of FamilyLife\u00ae, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.\u00a0 Our plan is not to try to pick on youth pastors and youth groups today, but we do want to explore some of the reasons why young people are turning away from their spiritual roots or their spiritual heritage.\u00a0 Stay tuned.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today.<\/em><em>\u00a0 <\/em>Thanks for joining us.\u00a0 You know, I think as often as not these days, if I\u2019m having a conversation with somebody who has adult children and I say to them, \u201cSo, how are things with your kids?\u201d, there\u2019s just a little bit of a flinch; and then they will start to talk a little bit about one child who, \u201cWell, he\u2019s not doing so well,\u201d or, \u201cShe\u2019s kind of wandered off.\u201d\u00a0 It just seems like that\u2019s more frequent than I remember it being a decade ago.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes, and, Bob, there\u2019s a passage in Third John, verse 4\u2014there\u2019s only one chapter in the book.\u00a0 It says this, \u201cI have no greater joy than to hear that my children are walking in the truth.\u201d\u00a0 You could put that on my gravestone; and I would be just happy if my six children, and their spouses, and my grandchildren are walking in the truth of Jesus Christ and enjoying Him, loving Him, obeying Him.\u00a0 I will have lived a successful life.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Well, we\u2019re seeing a generation that was raised in the church\u2014that was raised in the faith\u2014wander away at some point.\u00a0 We\u2019re wondering, \u201cIs this a permanent wandering, or is this just a youthful exploration?\u00a0 What\u2019s really going on here?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes, and we have a couple of experts in the studio with us.\u00a0 It\u2019s not you and me\u2014we have a couple of experts.\u00a0 (Laughter)\u00a0 Just in case you were about to say something, Bob.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Well, all I was going to say is somebody told me one time that, \u201cA spurt is a drip and ex- means, \u2018used to be,\u2019 so an \u2018expert\u2019 is somebody who used to be a drip,\u201d you know?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Okay. (Laughter)\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 I thought I\u2019d throw that in there for what it\u2019s worth.\u00a0 (Laughter)\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Well, let me introduce Drew Dyck and Rob Rienow to our listening audience.\u00a0 Rob, Drew, welcome to the broadcast.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Drew:<\/strong>\u00a0 Good to be here.\u00a0 Thanks for having us.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Thank you for having us.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Drew is a graduate of Fuller Theological Seminary.\u00a0 He works at <em>Christianity Today<\/em> in Chicago.\u00a0 He is the managing editor of <em>Leadership Journal\u2014a<\/em> very fine leadership\u2014it\u2019s not really a magazine.\u00a0 It really is a journal.\u00a0 It comes out quarterly; is that right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Drew:<\/strong>\u00a0 That\u2019s right.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 He and his wife Grace live near Chicago.\u00a0 He is the author of a new book that is <em>really<\/em> a good book.\u00a0 I really enjoyed this, Drew.\u00a0 It\u2019s called <em>Generation Ex-Christian<\/em>.\u00a0 The subtitle here is:\u00a0 <em>Why Young Adults Are Leaving the Faith and How to Bring Them Back.<\/em><em>\u00a0 <\/em>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tRob Rienow also lives in Chicago with his wife Amy.\u00a0 He has just recently left Wheaton Bible Church and is starting a ministry of his own called Visionary Parenting.\u00a0 They\u2019ve been married since 1994 and have six children.\u00a0 He\u2019s the author of a book, <em>When They Turn Away:<\/em><em>\u00a0 <\/em><em>Drawing Your Adult Child Back to Jesus Christ<\/em>.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDrew, I want to come to you first because you begin the book talking about a young man you were having a conversation with by the name of Abe.\u00a0 Abe kind of typifies what\u2019s taking place with a generation of young people today who seem to be leaving the church, and not just a few, but in record numbers.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Drew:<\/strong>\u00a0 That\u2019s correct.\u00a0 This story about Abe was really what drew me to this topic in the first place.\u00a0 He\u2019s the same age as me; I\u2019m in my early 30s now.\u00a0 I remember it was probably about four or five years after high school that he came to visit me.\u00a0 We had dinner, and I remember he just looked at me, and in a rather matter-of-fact way announced that he had left his Christian faith.\u00a0 That was a shock to me because we had gone to Christian school together.\u00a0 Our fathers, in fact, were both pastors.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Drew:<\/strong>\u00a0 So we\u2019d had this remarkably similar background.\u00a0 For him to just up and leave the faith was startling.\u00a0 That got me interested; and as I moved through my 20s, I started to see this phenomenon more and more as more friends either explicitly renounced their faith or just kind of drifted away and were at a point where their Christian faith was no longer an integral part of their life.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 How big of a problem is this?\u00a0 I mean, I\u2019ve seen some statistics that are alarming.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Drew:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\u00a0 They really are.\u00a0 Well, just really quickly, a couple of the recent big studies that have been done, one by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life, showed that the number of young adults over the last 20 years (actually less than 20 years, over the last 18 years) has more than doubled\u2014that are claiming that they have no religion.\u00a0 Now, of course, those aren\u2019t all Christians; but most are.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThen there are some statistics that we get from places like Barna Group and Rainer Research\u2014these are Christian organizations that study church involvement patterns.\u00a0 They say that by the time someone who is raised in the church reaches their 30th birthday, there\u2019s an 80 percent chance they will be disengaged from the church.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat\u2019s alarming!\u00a0 Some people have kind of pushed back and said, \u201cHey, listen.\u00a0 Doesn\u2019t this happen in every generation?\u201d\u00a0 There is some truth to that objection; because if you\u2019re going to walk away from the church or even your faith, it\u2019s probably going to happen in the young adult years.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Drew:<\/strong>\u00a0 However, there are a few reasons why I believe this generation is different.\u00a0 First of all, it\u2019s happening at a greater clip.\u00a0 Some people have said that it\u2019s happening at four to five times the rate than in previous generations.\u00a0 Secondly, young adulthood is not what it used to be; it\u2019s much longer.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Oh yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Drew:<\/strong>\u00a0 Some of those milestones like getting married, establishing a career, and settling down\u2014those incidentally\u2014those are things that encourage church involvement and people returning to their roots.\u00a0 Those milestones now are being delayed into the late 20s or even the early 30s.\u00a0 So, coming back after a one- or two-year hiatus is one thing.\u00a0 Coming back in a decade or more, in my view, is considerably more unlikely.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe third thing\u2014and I don\u2019t think this is news to anyone who has been paying attention\u2014there has been a tectonic shift in the culture.\u00a0 Past generations may have rebelled for a season, but they still inhabited largely Judeo-Christian culture.\u00a0 This generation\u2014really, maybe the first generation\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Drew:<\/strong>\u00a0 \u2014that\u2019s been raised in pluralistic, post-Christian America.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Drew:<\/strong>\u00a0 That cultural-gravity back to the faith has weakened or perhaps dissipated altogether.\u00a0 So, listen, I don\u2019t want to be a doomsayer; but I also want to guard against being lackadaisical and complacent.\u00a0 I think we need to take this seriously and address the issue.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Rob, let me ask you, because you served almost two decades as a youth pastor at Wheaton Bible; right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Correct.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 You saw kids come through the youth group; and some of these kids you looked at and you would go, \u201cThese kids are on fire for Christ!\u00a0 These are solid kids.\u201d\u00a0 You would run into them five years later, after college, and they were not going to church, not interested.\u00a0 They might still talk about a relationship with Christ, but it\u2019s not like what we think it ought to look like.\u00a0 What\u2019s your analysis of what you\u2019ve seen?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Well, first of all, the statistics\u2014anywhere you turn, just as Drew has said\u2014the statistics are bad.\u00a0 For all of us who care about this\u2014people who have young people in our lives\u2014sons and daughters\u2014youth pastors\u2014it\u2019s not just numbers on a piece of paper.\u00a0 These are real young men and real young women whom we care deeply about.\u00a0 It grieves me tremendously because the fact is that the majority of the kids that I had in youth ministry are now just like these statistics, you know, no longer walking with the Lord.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI can think of so many specific illustrations.\u00a0 One would be Mike\u2014name changed to protect the guilty here.\u00a0 Mike came to our church as a sophomore in high school.\u00a0 He came out of a really difficult background with foster situations and things like that.\u00a0 Junior year I was on a wilderness trip with him and had a chance to share the Gospel.\u00a0 God worked in his life.\u00a0 He repented of his sins and trusted Christ.\u00a0 He became one of these student leaders in the youth group.\u00a0 He hung around for his early college years, and he was now one of these <em>cool<\/em> volunteer college guys helping out with the youth group.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe lose contact for a number of years.\u00a0 He\u2019s 25, and the phone rings in my office.\u00a0 \u201cHey Rob, it\u2019s Mike.\u00a0 Do you remember me?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cOf course, I remember you.\u00a0 How are you doing?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cOh, I\u2019m doing great.\u00a0 I got engaged, and I would like for you to perform our wedding.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI said, \u201cWhat an honor and a privilege to do that.\u00a0 Let\u2019s get together.\u00a0 I\u2019d like to meet your fianc\u00e9e.\u201d\u00a0 So we sit down, and within about ten minutes, it becomes apparent to me that Mike\u2019s fianc\u00e9e is not a believer.\u00a0 I thought, \u201cOh boy, this is going to be a pretty awkward conversation pretty quickly here for me because I can\u2019t perform that wedding.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI said, \u201cWhat are you going to do if you have kids someday?\u00a0 What\u2019s the plan for their spiritual training?\u00a0 I kind of sense you guys are on a little different page when it comes to spiritual things.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tMike looks at me and he says, \u201cYou know, Rob, there are a lot of good religious books out there.\u00a0 There\u2019s the Bible, the Koran, there are all these different things.\u00a0 Our job is just to expose our kids to the different religions of the world and let them pick.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Oh.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0 I almost fell over in my chair because this is Mike I am talking to.\u00a0 This is \u201cLeader Mike.\u201d\u00a0 In those few years, and again, I can\u2019t comment on his salvation and his conversion.\u00a0 I don\u2019t know exactly where those things were, but this wasn\u2019t an \u201cunequally yoked\u201d situation.\u00a0 Those few years, Satan had wormed his way in there and taken his heart away from the path that he was on.\u00a0 Stories like that, in different flavors, are just replicating themselves millions and millions of times over.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Drew:<\/strong>\u00a0 It\u2019s so true.\u00a0 I\u2019ve found that time and again.\u00a0 I sought out dozens of 20-somethings who, by their own admission, were \u201cex-Christians.\u201d\u00a0 Again, I don\u2019t know exactly if they were ever really Christians.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 You don\u2019t know where to categorize that when somebody says, \u201cI\u2019m an ex-Christian.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Drew:<\/strong>\u00a0 Sure.\u00a0 Were they ever really Christians in the first place?\u00a0 I simply don\u2019t know.\u00a0 But many of them were very hostile to the faith and to people in the church that they had grown up with.\u00a0 I remember one lady, she had graduated from\u2014well, I won\u2019t name it\u2014but a blue-chip evangelical college\u2014she was in her mid-20s.\u00a0 For a full hour, I remember, she just spilled out all of the reasons she didn\u2019t believe in God and the Bible.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThen it was after about an hour when I started to ask her about the <em>particulars <\/em>surrounding her decision to leave.\u00a0 I found out that she\u2019d had this terrible experience where she\u2019d felt betrayed by some Christian friends and ostracized at her college.\u00a0 It was only after that that she made the decision to leave.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIn subsequent years, she had built this elaborate case against God; but really, the intellectual doubts were a bit of a smoke screen.\u00a0 They may have prevented her from returning, but what had caused her to leave in the first place was that kind of social experience\u2014that traumatic experience that soured her on the faith.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, it\u2019s critical when we talk to these people that we don\u2019t just make it an intellectual chess game.\u00a0 Yes, intellectual things have to be addressed.\u00a0 For some, it\u2019s more important than others; but often there\u2019s been some sort of negative experience.\u00a0 I heard horror stories from people being molested to being \u201cbrow-beaten\u201d by their father, or a pastor, or elder.\u00a0 You think, \u201cThere\u2019s no wonder that soured them on the faith!\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes, one of my takeaways from your book was that very point\u2014to realize when you talk to someone who seems to have no faith today\u2014to instead of starting to logically <em>reason<\/em> with them and give them an apologetic for the Gospel of Christ\u2014that the tomb is empty and all the various proofs we have for who Jesus Christ is\u2014instead, you move your reader, Drew, to contemplate and think about, \u201cHow were they hurt?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cWhat were the circumstances that resulted in this person turning against God, feeling like God didn\u2019t protect them, or God was unfair?\u201d\u00a0 Really, pausing to listen to that person and empathize with where they are.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 And this is interesting because when you and I were in college, if there was a skeptic\u2014if there was somebody who was not in the faith\u2014you got them a copy of Josh McDowell\u2019s <em>Evidence that Demands a Verdict<\/em>.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Well, that\u2019s part of how I came, really, came back to the faith was the apologetics\u2014the rational reasoning of proof for who Jesus Christ is.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Drew, you\u2019re saying today you give them a copy of that book; and they\u2019ll just look at it and say, \u201cWell that\u2019s one guy\u2019s opinion;\u201d right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Drew:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes, often that\u2019s the case.\u00a0 The story I mentioned earlier about Abe\u2014I busted out my best apologetics when he told me that he had left the faith.\u00a0 At the end of that conversation, he looked and me and said, \u201cYou know, I think reason and rationality are from the western philosophical tradition.\u201d\u00a0 He was an educated guy; and he said, \u201cI just don\u2019t think that\u2019s the only way to find truth.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI didn\u2019t know it at that point, but what I was encountering was basically a post-modern worldview\u2014this idea that there\u2019s no absolute truth.\u00a0 \u201cYou can have your truth; I can have mine.\u00a0 There are many paths to the same place.\u00a0 Spiritual truth, especially, is a matter of <em>experience<\/em> rather than rationality.\u201d His father, actually\u2014when he heard about his decision to leave the faith\u2014his father, a pastor, rushed him <em>Mere Christianity.<\/em><em>\u00a0 <\/em>My friend read the whole book, said he even enjoyed it; but it didn\u2019t change his heart.\u00a0 It didn\u2019t bring him back.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo that\u2019s part of what I write about is understanding the different worldviews that are impacting the younger generation.\u00a0 It doesn\u2019t mean that you have to become a philosopher or a scholar, but you have to understand what\u2019s out there and how they\u2019re being influenced so you can <em>speak<\/em> specifically to their objections.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0 To me, it\u2019s not so much, \u201cIs it personal hurt or is it a doctrinal issue?\u201d\u00a0 I don\u2019t want to do anything that\u2019s going to water down doctrine.\u00a0 The question is, \u201cWhat\u2019s the <em>root<\/em> issue?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat Drew and I are saying is that for the vast majority of families that we\u2019ve worked with, the <em>root <\/em>issue wasn\u2019t a doctrinal study, \u201cI went to school.\u00a0 I studied evolution.\u00a0 I buy it.\u00a0 I have become convinced the Bible is not true.\u201d\u00a0 That\u2019s not where they started this.\u00a0 Where they started this was a heart issue, a pain issue, a broken relationship issue\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0 \u2014a disconnection between them and their father, or them and their mother, you know?\u00a0 So, if they didn\u2019t get there through doctrinal heresy, they\u2019re not going to get back per se through doctrinal orthodoxy.\u00a0 If there\u2019s a relationship issue, that\u2019s the root; and that\u2019s what we want to go at.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes, I had to think as I listened to you guys talk about this, \u201cIf I\u2019d been a youth pastor for 18 years and if I was watching kids come out of the youth program, looking like they\u2019re in pretty good shape, and five years later things aren\u2019t going so well\u2014if I\u2019m making cars and that\u2019s what\u2019s turning out, they\u2019re going to shut down the factory.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSystemically, do we have a church problem?\u00a0 Do we have a family problem?\u00a0 Do we have a cultural problem?\u00a0 If we\u2019re trying to solve this thing, where do we go?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 The answer to all three of those, Bob, is, \u201cYes.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rob and Drew:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes!\u00a0 Yes!\u00a0 Yes!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Drew:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\u00a0 I\u2019ll speak briefly to the church issue, and I\u2019ll let Rob speak to the family issue.\u00a0 This is something that was kind of painful as I wrote this book and encountered these people\u2014I realized that we\u2019ve got to take a look in the mirror as Christians.\u00a0 I remember hearing one Christian professor at a Christian college say that when he asks his freshmen students about, say, the doctrine of the Trinity, 95 percent of them answer in classical heresies.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo we\u2019ve done a poor job of catechizing or, you know, biblical education with the younger generation.\u00a0 I remember when I was 12 years old, and I was in a Bible study at my church.\u00a0 We had a Bible study leader who was working us through the book of Hebrews.\u00a0 That\u2019s some deep, deep stuff.\u00a0 We complained; and I remember what he said, \u201cIf we can teach you algebra at school, we can teach you Hebrews at church.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think that mindset has kind of gone by the wayside.\u00a0 You know, historically, the youth ministry movement was a biblical education movement.\u00a0 Unfortunately, and I don\u2019t know if it\u2019s business-thinking impacting the church, but we\u2019ve kind of moved to a model of entertainment, where the goal becomes, \u201cLet\u2019s get as many kids through the door on a Friday night or a Sunday morning and keep them entertained.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe have youth groups in this country that have been reduced to using violent video games to keep kids entertained.\u00a0 Church researcher, Ed Stetzer, describes most youth groups in this country as \u201cholding tanks with pizza.\u201d\u00a0 Listen, I have nothing against video games or pizza, but they\u2019re tragic replacements for spiritual formation and for biblical education.\u00a0 We need to do a better job of giving kids a faith that will survive those inevitable assaults that they\u2019ll experience when they go to college and off into the real world.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Well, I have to ask you, because we\u2019ve said, \u201cThese people who are leaving the faith\u2014it\u2019s not primarily an intellectual disconnect.\u00a0 They\u2019re not rejecting it.\u201d\u00a0 And yet, you\u2019re saying part of the way we fix this is to give them a solid doctrinal foundation so that they don\u2019t get tripped up on that.\u00a0 They\u2019re still going to experience hurts; but I guess what you\u2019re saying is we need to give them a faith that has a doctrinal platform underneath it so that when the hurts come, it doesn\u2019t cause them to say, \u201cWell, there wasn\u2019t a foundation here to rest it on.\u201d\u00a0 Is that right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Drew:<\/strong>\u00a0 That\u2019s it exactly.\u00a0 I don\u2019t want to say that intellectual things don\u2019t play a role because they certainly do.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Drew:<\/strong>\u00a0 I don\u2019t think either of us was saying that.\u00a0 They often work in tandem with an emotional or psychological issue.\u00a0 But when a kid goes off to college\u2014and people who\u2019ve gone to a secular university know this\u2014you sign up, not just for courses, but for a systematic attack on your faith.\u00a0 They come into a classroom and they sit down.\u00a0 Here\u2019s the smartest person they\u2019ve ever met, the professor, who is maybe slighting and belittling Christian beliefs left and right.\u00a0 If they don\u2019t know why they believe what they believe, if they don\u2019t understand why the Bible is valid and why Jesus rose from the dead, if some of these things have never been taught to them, that makes them very vulnerable to defection.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Rob, you really believe that, \u201cYes, we must teach theology; but that theology needs to be anchored in the family where there\u2019s authentic Christian living, where people are living out what they believe.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0 This whole area of trying to take the lead in making a disciple of your own children\u2014when you hear Matthew 28, \u201cGo and make disciples,\u201d or Jesus, \u201cLove your neighbor,\u201d churches hardly ever teach us that the first person you should think about is your spouse.\u00a0 The first persons you think about are your sons and your daughters.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0 I think that this highlights this issue of the church and the family, each having their role in raising the next generation.\u00a0 As Drew just talked about, the watering-down of content, if you will, and of doctrine in the church, which has absolutely happened; but then you have a whole generation of parents who are delegating the spiritual training of their children to the church.\u00a0\u00a0 I don\u2019t fault my parents\u2019 generation because my parents\u2019 generation was taught by the church that, \u201cIn order to be a good Christian mom or dad, make sure little Robbie is in Sunday school.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0 So, they were very obedient; and they did that.\u00a0 In our ministry, you know what?\u00a0 What we do is to try to go back to the historical foundations and the biblical foundations, \u201cThat God created moms and dads, and grandmas, and grandpas as the most important spiritual influencers in a child\u2019s life.\u201d\u00a0 That influence doesn\u2019t expire when your child becomes an adult.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat\u2019s one of the nastiest lies of the world on this one.\u00a0 Let\u2019s say you\u2019ve got a 25-year-old son who lives halfway across the country and is far from God.\u00a0 The world tells you, \u201cHey, you missed the boat.\u00a0 You had your chance.\u00a0 You raised your kid.\u00a0 You can\u2019t go back.\u00a0 All you can do now is pray that God brings some good Christian friend into their life and try to be there for them,\u201d or whatever; but that <em>you<\/em> don\u2019t have any more influence anymore.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI believe that\u2019s a lie from the Enemy because God created this parent-child relationship with <em>supernatural<\/em> power; and it\u2019s never too late\u2014never too late\u2014for God to use you to bless and encourage faith in your child, no matter how old they are.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 As you were talking, Rob, I was thinking back again to my mom and dad.\u00a0 I wasn\u2019t excusing them, by the way, that they didn\u2019t disciple me in the home.\u00a0 They did when we went to church.\u00a0 I mean, my dad taught from the Bible.\u00a0 I actually came to faith in Christ, I believe, in my mom\u2019s (what was called) \u201cBaptist Training Union.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut this is a different era; this is a different time.\u00a0 What we\u2019re saying here is that parents and grandparents <em>must own<\/em> the responsibility of passing on, not merely their testimony, but also the doctrines of the truth about Who God is; the truth about Scripture, the truth about the cross, about salvation, about Jesus Christ, <em>so that<\/em> when they get hit by the winds of the culture, they\u2019re going to <em>stand<\/em> because they have a worldview of their <em>own<\/em> that is built upon the Scriptures.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat\u2019s really what you guys are both talking about in your books.\u00a0 One is more of an analysis of what\u2019s taking place and how to respond to it; the other a book more for parents, I believe, who are watching a child who is struggling.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 And both of these are books that I wouldn\u2019t wait to read until I was in that situation.\u00a0 I think it\u2019s helpful for parents to understand what\u2019s going on in the culture and what teenagers are thinking as they pass through the teen years and into their early 20s.\u00a0 It\u2019s good to have a head start on these kinds of issues before they present themselves in your family.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe\u2019ve got copies of Drew\u2019s book, <em>Generation Ex-Christian,<\/em> and Rob\u2019s book, <em>When They Turn Away,<\/em> in our <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Resource Center.\u00a0 As you\u2019ve said, Dennis, one gives us kind of the broader cultural perspective and the other is targeted for parents who may be going through something like this now or may want to head it off at the pass.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCome to our website, FamilyLifeToday.com, and find out more about both of these books\u2014G<em>eneration Ex-Christian<\/em> and <em>When They Turn Away<\/em> by our guests Drew Dyck and Rob Rienow.\u00a0 Again, our website is FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can give us a call at 1-800-FLTODAY\u2014that\u2019s 1-800-358-6329; 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d\u00a0 When you get in touch with us, let us know which of these books you\u2019d like to receive or if you\u2019d like to receive both of them; and we\u2019ll make arrangements to have the books you want sent to you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe want to take just a minute and say, \u201cThank you,\u201d to those of you who are financial supporters of <em>FamilyLife Today.<\/em>\u00a0 We are listener-supported.\u00a0 What that means is that the costs associated with syndicating and distributing this radio program on this station, and our network of stations all across the country, and throughout the world on the internet\u2014those costs are covered by folks like you who will, from time to time, get in touch with us and say, \u201cI like what I hear on <em>FamilyLife Today.<\/em><em>\u00a0 <\/em>I appreciate the ministry, and I\u2019d like to help support it.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThis week, if you can help support us with a donation, we\u2019d like to send you, as a thank-you gift, a devotional book by Barbara Rainey called <em>Growing Together in Gratitude.<\/em><em>\u00a0 <\/em>This is the first of the devotional series that Barbara began working on a couple of years ago.\u00a0 The seven stories in this book all deal with how we cultivate a heart of gratefulness and thanksgiving in our children\u2019s lives and in our own lives.\u00a0 In time for Thanksgiving, we\u2019d love to send you a copy of this book, along with a Thanksgiving prayer card that will help you stay focused on how you cultivate thankfulness, again, in your own heart and in the hearts of those in your family.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf you\u2019d like to receive these resources, all you have to do is go to FamilyLifeToday.com and click the button that says, \u201cI Care.\u201d\u00a0 That will take you to where you can make an online donation, or you can call us toll-free at 1-800-FLTODAY.\u00a0 When you make your donation over the phone, just mention that you\u2019d like Barbara\u2019s devotional book and the prayer card; and we\u2019re happy to send those out to you.\u00a0 We so much appreciate your financial support of this ministry, and we\u2019re grateful for your partnership.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe want to encourage you to be back with us tomorrow when we\u2019re going to continue our conversation about what\u2019s going on with young people who are wandering from the Christian faith.\u00a0 Drew Dyck will be back tomorrow, along with Rob Rienow.\u00a0 I hope you can be back tomorrow with us as well.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team.\u00a0 On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I\u2019m Bob Lepine.\u00a0 We will see you tomorrow for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today.<\/em>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>\u00a0<\/em>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHelp for today.\u00a0 Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you.\u00a0 However, there is a cost to produce them for our website.\u00a0 If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright \u00a9 2011 FamilyLife.\u00a0 All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0 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