{"id":302384,"date":"2011-10-20T11:00:00","date_gmt":"2011-10-20T15:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/what-marriage-is-not\/"},"modified":"2011-10-20T11:00:00","modified_gmt":"2011-10-20T15:00:00","slug":"what-marriage-is-not","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/what-marriage-is-not\/","title":{"rendered":"What Marriage Is Not"},"content":{"rendered":"","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>If marriage isn&#8217;t about meeting my needs, then what is it?<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2011-10-20.mp3","podmotor_file_id":"","podmotor_episode_id":"","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:","filesize":"23.89M","filesize_raw":"25045272","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2805],"tags":[4086,4926,2877],"podcast_series":[7833],"cwp_profile":[9245],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-302384","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-gods-plan-for-marriage","tag-commitment","tag-faithfulness","tag-marriage","podcast_series-marriage-matters","cwp_profile-winston-smith","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/302384\/what-marriage-is-not","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/302384\/what-marriage-is-not","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"IrKSQtvWu8\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/what-marriage-is-not\/\">What Marriage Is Not<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/what-marriage-is-not\/embed\/#?secret=IrKSQtvWu8\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;What Marriage Is Not&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"IrKSQtvWu8\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2011-10-20.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2011-10-20.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Your spouse is different than you, right?\u00a0 Winston Smith says, \u201cThat\u2019s a good thing!\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 In marriage counseling, sometimes couples are fighting because one or both spouses are insisting that the other become identical to them.\u00a0 \u201cYou need to think the way I think.\u00a0 You need to do life the way I do life,\u201d rather than saying, \u201cWell, maybe the differences are God\u2019s idea,\u201d so that you can complement and sharpen each other and build each other up.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, when I think of that sweet spot, it\u2019s recognizing the differences and learning how to live in them in a way that builds each other up.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Thursday, October 20<sup>th<\/sup>.\u00a0 Our host is the President of FamilyLife\u00ae, Dennis Rainey, and I\u2019m Bob Lepine.\u00a0 Winston Smith joins us today to talk about how we can value and appreciate our differences. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 And welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\u00a0 Thanks for joining us.\u00a0 You\u2019ve never gotten Barbara\u2014like a shotgun for Christmas, or anything?\u00a0 I\u2019m just wondering\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>No, no but\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 --if you\u2019ve ever made one of those blunders\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 --but the topic of today\u2019s broadcast about how we learn how to love in marriage\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 I was thinking about this.\u00a0 When I was a boy\u2014I don\u2019t know, I was probably four years old, maybe five\u2014my mom, who was kind of a practical joker\u2014but she kind of had an edge to some of the things she did sometimes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 So that\u2019s where that comes from.\u00a0 (Laughter)\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 I wonder, yes; but my mom bought herself a vacuum cleaner for Christmas.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Bought <em>herself <\/em>a vacuum cleaner?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 And she <em>hid<\/em> it in the front hall closet, and she was going to put it under the tree.\u00a0 My mom\u2019s name was Dalcie, okay?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 And it was going to be, \u201cTo: Dalcie, From: Ward,\u201d my dad.\u00a0 Of course, Dad would have looked at it and kind of\u2014he would have grinned.\u00a0 He would have loved the joke, but my mom was going to get a kick out of it.; but as a four-year-old would have it, I ratted on my mom.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 You spilled the beans!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 I said, \u201cDad, Mom has bought herself a vacuum cleaner for Christmas; but I\u2019m ashamed to tell it, and it\u2019s hidden in the closet.\u201d\u00a0 It became one of those legendary tales that we had in our family.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWell, our guest on today\u2019s broadcast has, maybe, not a similar story; but it is a story of how we express love in marriage.\u00a0 Winston Smith joins us on <em>FamilyLife Today.<\/em><em>\u00a0 <\/em>Winston, welcome back.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Thank you, Dennis.\u00a0 Great to be here.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Winston is a counselor and an author.\u00a0 He and his wife Kim have three children, a 16-, a 14-, and a 12-year-old.\u00a0 You\u2019re about to have three teenagers.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 I know.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 You\u2019re about to learn<em> a lot<\/em> about love.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 I know.\u00a0 I\u2019m going to be listening to this show a lot more\u2014like, \u201cStart soon!\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t(Laughter)\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 You tell a story in your book, <em>Marriage Matters<\/em>, about your mother-in-law.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 First of all, I want you to know, in all of our broadcasting, Bob, how many mother-in-law stories have we had told?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 There have been very few that have had the\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Permission, at least.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 --well, and the courage\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 I would agree.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 --to bring these stories out.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 So, I\u2019m really impressed that you got the permission to tell this story.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Well, you notice I was wise enough to <em>ask<\/em> for permission.\u00a0 (Laughter)\u00a0 My mother-in-law told me the story that one year she bought my father-in-law a beautiful ornamental brass wastebasket.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Oh, what every man wants for Christmas.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes, and I thought she was outing him about something, like, \u201cWhy would he want that?\u201d\u00a0 The fact is, she wanted that for <em>herself;<\/em> and she somehow fooled herself into thinking that he would like that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 So, she really legitimately thought, \u201cThis is something that would delight his heart on Christmas morning\u201d?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 I think she psyched herself out to believe that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 It happened on your side of the family, too, though didn\u2019t it?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes, my dad got <em>himself<\/em> and my mother a motorcycle for Christmas one year.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Which your mom was just dying for?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 And as a child, I remember seeing my mother\u2019s motorcycle pristine in the shed, where it was never used.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 You know, I\u2019m picturing you and Kim coming together.\u00a0 You\u2019ve been married how long now?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 21 years.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 21 years.\u00a0 So 21 years ago, here you\u2019ve got this man and woman coming together, saying they\u2019re about to learn how to love; and they both have images in their minds of their parents giving themselves presents.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\u00a0 Yes, or riding down the street with a brass wastebasket on motorcycles.\u00a0 (Laughter)\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 You say in the book that most of us <em>love<\/em> the way your daughter plays the piano.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Explain what you mean by that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes, both my girls play the piano.\u00a0 You know, how when you start playing the piano, you hang out right around middle C; and you play the eight keys on either side, and you kind of plink around.\u00a0 But the piano is this magnificent instrument.\u00a0 You can make it louder or softer, depending on how you hit the keys.\u00a0 You have these wonderful 88 keys.\u00a0 You have these wonderful light, airy notes on one end and these deep, dark notes on the other end.\u00a0 The piano\u2014you can play all kinds of <em>amazing <\/em>music on it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut most of us end up satisfied\u2014living love the way a kid starts playing the piano.\u00a0 You learn a few tunes that you can plink out, and you never develop any breadth.\u00a0 You stop <em>learning<\/em> how to love.\u00a0 You find out what\u2019s comfortable and what seems to work for you, and then you stop learning.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut when you understand that God is love, and Jesus is love incarnate, you should know that you\u2019re in for some surprises.\u00a0 As you read about Christ\u2019s life and as He instructs you about love, He\u2019s always blowing our categories.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 You\u2019re saying that we tend to live our lives playing <em>Chopsticks<\/em>?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\u00a0 Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 But what God wants to do is\u2014He wants us to venture out on the whole keyboard.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 And spend the rest of our lives learning how to do it better and better.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 How have you learned the love of God?\u00a0 In other words, give us some illustrations of what you mean here and what you\u2019ve learned about the love of God, both in terms of what it is, and in terms of what it isn\u2019t.\u00a0 Begin with what it isn\u2019t.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Well, I think, kind of an unspoken assumption as a newly-married husband for me was, \u201cI wanted my home to be a very safe and comfortable place.\u00a0 I wanted to come home from work, and I wanted dinner to be ready, and I wanted the laundry to be folded.\u00a0 I wanted my home to be comfortable for me.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 I counted five \u201cI wanted\u201ds in those statements.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Oh yes.\u00a0 I\u2019ve got more.\u00a0 I\u2019ve got more lined up for you.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Spoken as a good truly-married young man.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\u00a0 And I was unapologetic about it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Me, too.\u00a0 Me, too.\u00a0 So, it\u2019s okay.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 So, one of the things I noticed, though, especially as children came along, is that I\u2019d come home and dinner wasn\u2019t ready.\u00a0 My wife would be on the floor playing Candy Land<em>\u00ae<\/em>, you know, with the kids or going to one of their school events.\u00a0 At first, I got irritated.\u00a0 I started pitying myself.\u00a0 \u201cWhy are the kids becoming more important than me?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI sat down with Kim at one point; and she said, \u201cYou know, I love you as much as ever,\u201d she said, \u201cbut what I don\u2019t want to happen is\u2014I don\u2019t want to look back and see a bunch of missed opportunities.\u00a0 I love you and I\u2019ll always love you; but God has given us these children and they need our time and love, too.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIn that moment, God kind of helped me see that, \u201cYou can learn something about love from your wife,\u201d because she\u2019s saying in a much nicer way than needed to be said, \u201cOur marriage isn\u2019t about you being comfortable.\u00a0 It\u2019s about loving people who need to be loved; and right now, our kids need to be loved.\u00a0 They need me to play Candy Land with them, and that\u2019s more important than dinner being on time.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think the Holy Spirit had to work in me; but then I realized, \u201cI can\u2019t make my life about my own comfort.\u00a0 Living a life of love means people are more important than things.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Okay, I want you to tell the truth now.\u00a0 You\u2019re a trained counselor.\u00a0 You\u2019ve had a lot of years of education.\u00a0 You come home from work and your wife advises you about love?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\u00a0 She\u2019s good!\u00a0 Yes, like I said, \u201cA lot of times she models things more than she lectures me.\u201d I do occasionally get, \u201cYou\u2019re the marriage counselor.\u00a0 You figure it out,\u201d comments.\u00a0 She\u2019s not sinless herself, but she\u2014one of the things she shows me is\u2014a lot of times actions are more powerful than words.\u00a0 I see her <em>do<\/em> love, and that changes me.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Well, she\u2019s also showing you and telling you that people are more important than some of the things that you\u2019re valuing.\u00a0 In fact, you spend a lot of time in the book talking about whether we look at our spouse as a person or an object.\u00a0 That really shows up in whether we <em>honor <\/em>them or we try to manipulate them.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\u00a0 Yes, and this is sort of the next step in thinking about how our understanding love needs to be challenged.\u00a0 When we look at our spouses as people who exist basically, \u201cto love me the way I want to be loved,\u201d we are really not treating them like a person at all.\u00a0 We\u2019re treating them like an object.\u00a0 Objects are things that exist for our use, and there\u2019s nothing wrong with using or manipulating an object to get what you want out of it.\u00a0 That\u2019s what they\u2019re for.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut people, fundamentally, don\u2019t exist for us to get what we want out of them.\u00a0 People are made in the image of God; they\u2019re God\u2019s children, and we\u2019re called to <em>honor<\/em> them.\u00a0 I think we have to especially be careful to bring that attitude into our marriage.\u00a0 Marriage doesn\u2019t mean that my spouse exists for me\u2014especially, \u201cMy spouse doesn\u2019t exist to give me what I want.\u201d\u00a0 My spouse is a child of God who, yes, is called to love me; but that\u2019s not the same thing as saying, \u201cGive me what I want.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 At our <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em>\u00ae marriage getaways, when we\u2019re talking with couples around this, we will sometimes talk about the fact that we were created for marriage to be an interdependent relationship.\u00a0 We take a little bit of time to say it\u2019s unhealthy for it to be a dependent relationship\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 --what sometimes is labeled a \u201ccodependent\u201d relationship these days.\u00a0 It is also unhealthy for it to be an independent relationship.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 That\u2019s right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Help us understand where that sweet spot is and the danger on either side of it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 I love the imagery that Paul gives us in the Scripture of one flesh and the imagery of body.\u00a0 So now, talking about the life of the church, Paul talks about how we are members of one body.\u00a0 That\u2019s a picture of that interdependence that you\u2019re talking about, where we can be different because the members of the body are different.\u00a0 We\u2019re not supposed to be identical.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Mm hmm.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 But we are connected in a way that we mutually upbuild one another.\u00a0 There\u2019s this picture of being different but being connected in a way that builds up.\u00a0 I find in marriage counseling, sometimes couples are fighting because one or both spouses are insisting that the other become identical to them.\u00a0 \u201cYou need to think the way I think.\u00a0 You need to do life the way I do life,\u201d rather than saying, \u201cWell, maybe the differences are God\u2019s idea,\u201d so that you can complement and sharpen each other and build each other up.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo when I think of that sweet spot, it\u2019s recognizing the differences and learning how to live in them in a way that builds each other up.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 And celebrating those differences.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 As I think of the word, \u201chonor,\u201d in the Hebrew language, it meant to \u201clay it on someone,\u201d\u2014to lay a heavy weight of celebration on that other person.\u00a0 If you think about honoring your spouse, the way practically you can begin to lay something heavy in terms of celebrating their personhood\u2014you can do it by common courtesies.\u00a0 You can do it by caring for their needs, by anticipating what <em>the<\/em>y need, thinking about what their ideal day would be like, how you can meet their needs in a tough situation.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI remember going home from work; and I would arrive home and, as you just described earlier, our house was anything but a safe, quiet place.\u00a0 It was chaos; and the kids had my wife tied up emotionally, if not physically.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Literally.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\u00a0 It had been a tough day for Barbara, and we would begin the dinner.\u00a0 At the dinner table, we would celebrate Mom.\u00a0 I said, \u201cWe\u2019re going to go around the table, and we\u2019re going to talk about what we like best about Mom.\u201d\u00a0 Barbara sometimes would be so upset she wouldn\u2019t like it; but by the time you got a bunch of rug rats saying some goofy things like, \u201cShe lets me play with my toys,\u201d\u2014you know, that type of thing\u2014it melts the heart, and it does begin to celebrate the other person.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 But one of the things you say is that to treat your spouse as a valued possession, to adore your spouse, to put him or her on a pedestal\u2014that can actually be detrimental to a marriage relationship and cause the other person to shut down.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Right.\u00a0 Sometimes, I explain it as the difference between loving somebody and <em>needing<\/em> them\u2014needing them in that capital \u201cN\u201d kind of way, \u201cNeed.\u201d\u00a0 Loving somebody means doing what\u2019s best for them because it\u2019s best for them.\u00a0 When people talk about <em>needing<\/em> their spouse, often what they mean is, \u201cI have this sense of desperation when I can\u2019t get what I want from you.\u201d\u00a0 Their response to not getting what they want is angry punishing, losing the temper, or it could be withdrawing, or\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Or pleading, or begging, or\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 --or pleading, and that\u2019s needing somebody in the worst possible sense.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 So building up, encouraging, affirming another person\u2014to do what Dennis was talking about around the dinner table, where you\u2019re encouraging another person\u2014those are all biblical things to do; but if we\u2019re doing that out of some kind of a dependence- deficit in our own heart and our own life, that can put too great a weight on the other person\u2014something they can\u2019t live up to.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Right.\u00a0 God did not invent marriage to replace Himself.\u00a0 Marriage should <em>enhance <\/em>our understanding of God.\u00a0 It\u2019s a way to embody the love of God for another person but not to replace our fundamental <em>need<\/em> for God.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Let me read Romans 12:9-10 here.\u00a0 I think this is just a good reminder.\u00a0 It says, \u201cLet love be genuine.\u00a0 Abhor what is evil; hold fast to what is good.\u00a0 Love one another with brotherly affection.\u00a0 Outdo one another in showing honor.\u201d\u00a0 Of course, we would never want to put the person in a place of honor equal to God or in a place above God; that\u2019s idolatry.\u00a0 That\u2019s not healthy.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI don\u2019t think that\u2019s the biggest mistake we make in marriage.\u00a0 I think we withhold honor, we withhold ways of lifting the other person up, celebrating their differences.\u00a0 I mean, as I\u2019ve mentioned earlier, we\u2019ve been married 38 years.\u00a0 It seems like the past five years have been a new revelation of all the new, fresh ways I need my wife and how we\u2019re <em>very<\/em> different from one another.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBarbara and I have chosen, because we\u2019ve been trained by the Scripture, to err on the side of celebrating the differences rather than chipping away at the other person <em>because<\/em> of the differences.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 But sometimes those differences can be like sandpaper on one when we\u2019re in the process.\u00a0 Last night, at dinner, our 16-year-old son said, \u201cHey, is it okay on Saturday if I drive to Hot Springs?\u201d\u00a0 It\u2019s about an hour from here.\u00a0 I could tell immediately that my wife was thinking, \u201cThat\u2019s just a lousy idea.\u00a0 That\u2019s highway driving\u2014he\u2019s 16, doesn\u2019t have the experience doing that.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI\u2019m thinking, \u201cWell, there\u2019s no problem.\u00a0 He\u2019s been driving long enough.\u00a0 It\u2019s a Saturday morning, not a whole lot of traffic.\u00a0 He should be able to get to Hot Springs and back without a problem.\u201d\u00a0 Okay.\u00a0 Here\u2019s what got exposed in that whole process.\u00a0 What got exposed is that a part of what\u2019s behind my answer is the lowest-conflict response here to my son is, \u201cSure. Why not?\u201d\u00a0 I\u2019m not going to get any fight from him, the evening goes on peacefully\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Everybody\u2019s happy.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 That\u2019s part of the reason I want to let him go is because\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 You just switched the area of fight, though.\u00a0 You traded him for your wife.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Well, part of what was revealed in her answer is fear\u2014a desire to control her environment, her surroundings, her circumstances.\u00a0 Now we could pull back and we could say, \u201cWho is right?\u00a0 Bob or Mary Ann?\u201d\u00a0 That\u2019s <em>really<\/em> the wrong question to ask isn\u2019t it?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes, that\u2019s right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 We\u2019re really pulling back and saying, \u201cIn this ordinary moment, what\u2019s coming out that we need to pay attention to, and learn, and grow from?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Exactly.\u00a0 I would add to that, \u201cHow can we talk this through in a way that we\u2019re really loving each other, we\u2019re really listening and trying to learn from each other?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes, we could have used a little help in that area as this subject came out.\u00a0 If you\u2019d been at the house last night, maybe you could have coached us through some of that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 I got a slot open.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 We\u2019d have to pay you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 And a teenager\u2014what\u2019s he going to do?\u00a0 He\u2019s going to pounce on your answer, and there\u2019s the opening.\u00a0 \u201cMan, Dad\u2019s a softy.\u00a0 I\u2019ve got him working my side of the deal,\u201d so he pits you and Mary Ann against each other.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Right; and he can learn in the process that, \u201cIf I just give any evidence that I\u2019ll create some conflict, then Dad will cave quickly.\u201d\u00a0 A teenager\u2019s alert to that, without being intentional or malicious.\u00a0 They just go, \u201cI can see here\u2014if I just pout a little bit or if I just get a little angry, that\u2019ll cause Dad to back off because he\u2019s a low-conflict, pleaser-kind-of-person.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes, and what all of our kids need to see is us kind of working it through, honestly with our spouses.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 I was smart enough at the dinner table when it came up and he said, \u201cCan I do this?\u201d I said, \u201cYour mom and I will talk about it, and we\u2019ll get back to you.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Offline.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Away from him.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 It took five kids to get to where I can do that reflexively now.\u00a0 (Laughter)\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 He\u2019s going to be incredibly healthy.\u00a0 (Laughter)\u00a0 The other four are on their own.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes, that\u2019s right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Several times in this conversation you\u2019ve really talked about how marriage is not about us getting our needs met from the other person, but marriage has transcendent purposes designed by God for our good.\u00a0 It\u2019s interesting\u2014I\u2019m just reflecting as you\u2019ve talked here, Winston, that our <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em> marriage getaways\u2014this is what we teach at the conference and how we start the conference, talking about the transcendent purposes of marriage.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBecause I think one of the problems today\u2014we get into marriage and we dumb it down to the other person meeting all of our needs.\u00a0 We try to manipulate them; and we laughed about that at the beginning of the broadcast, talking about giving yourself a gift for Christmas, or for a birthday, or something.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut I think a lot of people are really <em>lost <\/em>in the middle keys, playing <em>Chopsticks<\/em>, as we talked about; and they don\u2019t experience the stereo, the breadth, the richness of the high tones and the deep tones, so that there\u2019s harmony between a husband and a wife.\u00a0 Some of our listeners have listened to us on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for a number of years talk about the <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em>, Bob, and they\u2019ve never been.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThey may be thinking, \u201cYou know, I\u2019m going to wait until my marriage has got a problem, and then we\u2019ll go fix it.\u201d\u00a0 Well you know what?\u00a0 That\u2019s <em>not<\/em> the time to go <em>address<\/em> your marriage.\u00a0 <em>Invest <\/em>in your marriage; go spend some time away as a couple, sitting and soaking in the teaching of Scripture in a godly perspective of what marriage is all about.\u00a0 That\u2019s what Winston talks about in his book, and it\u2019s what we attempt to do in the <em>Weekend to Remember.<\/em>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 You\u2019re saying a little preventive maintenance can go a long way?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 I mean, really!\u00a0 You think about.\u00a0 If you were given a car for a lifetime, and you knew that car had to last you for a lifetime, I\u2019ll guarantee you\u2019d be paying more attention to the maintenance on <em>every<\/em> part of that car.\u00a0 Well, marriage is a lifetime relationship far more important than any vehicle we\u2019ll ever own; and you need to invest <em>heavily<\/em> in your marriage relationship.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 But remember, it\u2019s a person, not an object you\u2019re dealing with. There is a difference between them.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 That\u2019s good.\u00a0 That\u2019s a good reminder\u2014and to celebrate the differences at that point.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 And for those who have never been to a <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em>, there is information available on our website, FamilyLifeToday.com.\u00a0 You can click on a link there; and it will take you to where you can get all the information about dates, locations.\u00a0 We\u2019ve got events taking place this weekend, next weekend, all through the month of November, into December, and then next spring as well.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, go online at FamilyLifeToday.com for more information about the <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em> marriage getaway and for information about Winston Smith\u2019s book, <em>Marriage Matters.<\/em>\u00a0 Go to FamilyLifeToday.com.\u00a0 That\u2019s FamilyLifeToday.com, or call 1-800-FLTODAY and ask how you can get a copy of the book.\u00a0 That\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tA couple of other quick reminders:\u00a0 On our website at FamilyLifeToday.com, we have a site that we have worked together with our friends at the Christian Counseling and Education Foundation, where Winston works, to address some of the difficult issues families will face in a marriage or as they raise their children\u2014issues that might send you to see a counselor or even a medical doctor.\u00a0 We have a link at FamilyLifeToday.com that will take you to that part of the website if you\u2019d like to check it out.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI also want to mention that the Christian Counseling and Education Foundation is about to host their national convention for this year; and there\u2019s a link at FamilyLifeToday.com if you\u2019d like to find out more about the convention.\u00a0 I think it\u2019s in Louisville, Kentucky, this year.\u00a0 It is coming up in a couple of weeks\u2014so, go to FamilyLifeToday.com for more information.\u00a0 This is a conference primarily for pastors, counselors, those who are involved in soul care, and again, the link is online at FamilyLifeToday.com.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tFinally, a quick word of thanks to those of you who help support the ministry\u2014make this ministry possible through your donations to <em>FamilyLife Today.<\/em>\u00a0 We are listener-supported.\u00a0 That means that it\u2019s folks like you who go online or call us and make a donation.\u00a0 You make it possible for this program to be on this station, and we appreciate your support.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThis week, if you\u2019re able to help with a donation, we\u2019d love to send you a copy of a book by Dennis and Barbara Rainey on praying together as a couple.\u00a0 It\u2019s called <em>Two Hearts Praying as One<\/em>, and it\u2019s our thank-you gift this week when you support the ministry with a donation.\u00a0 If you donate online at FamilyLifeToday.com, just type the word, \u201cONE,\u201d (O-N-E), into the key code box on the online donation form; or call us toll-free at 1-800-FLTODAY.\u00a0 Make your donation over the phone and ask for your copy of the book on praying together as a couple.\u00a0 We\u2019re happy to send it to you, and we do appreciate your support of the ministry of <em>FamilyLife Today.<\/em>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTomorrow, we\u2019re going to talk about anger and what we do when anger is a part of a marriage relationship on an ongoing basis.\u00a0\u00a0 Winston Smith is going to be back with us.\u00a0 Hope you can be back, as well.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team.\u00a0 On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine.\u00a0 We will see you back again for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHelp for today.\u00a0 Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you.\u00a0 However, there is a cost to produce them for our website.\u00a0 If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright \u00a9 2011 FamilyLife.\u00a0 All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0 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marriage isn't about meeting my needs, then what is it?","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2011-10-20.pdf","transcript_content":"<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Your spouse is different than you, right?\u00a0 Winston Smith says, \u201cThat\u2019s a good thing!\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 In marriage counseling, sometimes couples are fighting because one or both spouses are insisting that the other become identical to them.\u00a0 \u201cYou need to think the way I think.\u00a0 You need to do life the way I do life,\u201d rather than saying, \u201cWell, maybe the differences are God\u2019s idea,\u201d so that you can complement and sharpen each other and build each other up.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, when I think of that sweet spot, it\u2019s recognizing the differences and learning how to live in them in a way that builds each other up.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Thursday, October 20<sup>th<\/sup>.\u00a0 Our host is the President of FamilyLife\u00ae, Dennis Rainey, and I\u2019m Bob Lepine.\u00a0 Winston Smith joins us today to talk about how we can value and appreciate our differences. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 And welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\u00a0 Thanks for joining us.\u00a0 You\u2019ve never gotten Barbara\u2014like a shotgun for Christmas, or anything?\u00a0 I\u2019m just wondering\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>No, no but\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 --if you\u2019ve ever made one of those blunders\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 --but the topic of today\u2019s broadcast about how we learn how to love in marriage\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 I was thinking about this.\u00a0 When I was a boy\u2014I don\u2019t know, I was probably four years old, maybe five\u2014my mom, who was kind of a practical joker\u2014but she kind of had an edge to some of the things she did sometimes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 So that\u2019s where that comes from.\u00a0 (Laughter)\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 I wonder, yes; but my mom bought herself a vacuum cleaner for Christmas.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Bought <em>herself <\/em>a vacuum cleaner?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 And she <em>hid<\/em> it in the front hall closet, and she was going to put it under the tree.\u00a0 My mom\u2019s name was Dalcie, okay?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 And it was going to be, \u201cTo: Dalcie, From: Ward,\u201d my dad.\u00a0 Of course, Dad would have looked at it and kind of\u2014he would have grinned.\u00a0 He would have loved the joke, but my mom was going to get a kick out of it.; but as a four-year-old would have it, I ratted on my mom.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 You spilled the beans!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 I said, \u201cDad, Mom has bought herself a vacuum cleaner for Christmas; but I\u2019m ashamed to tell it, and it\u2019s hidden in the closet.\u201d\u00a0 It became one of those legendary tales that we had in our family.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWell, our guest on today\u2019s broadcast has, maybe, not a similar story; but it is a story of how we express love in marriage.\u00a0 Winston Smith joins us on <em>FamilyLife Today.<\/em><em>\u00a0 <\/em>Winston, welcome back.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Thank you, Dennis.\u00a0 Great to be here.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Winston is a counselor and an author.\u00a0 He and his wife Kim have three children, a 16-, a 14-, and a 12-year-old.\u00a0 You\u2019re about to have three teenagers.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 I know.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 You\u2019re about to learn<em> a lot<\/em> about love.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 I know.\u00a0 I\u2019m going to be listening to this show a lot more\u2014like, \u201cStart soon!\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t(Laughter)\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 You tell a story in your book, <em>Marriage Matters<\/em>, about your mother-in-law.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 First of all, I want you to know, in all of our broadcasting, Bob, how many mother-in-law stories have we had told?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 There have been very few that have had the\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Permission, at least.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 --well, and the courage\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 I would agree.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 --to bring these stories out.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 So, I\u2019m really impressed that you got the permission to tell this story.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Well, you notice I was wise enough to <em>ask<\/em> for permission.\u00a0 (Laughter)\u00a0 My mother-in-law told me the story that one year she bought my father-in-law a beautiful ornamental brass wastebasket.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Oh, what every man wants for Christmas.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes, and I thought she was outing him about something, like, \u201cWhy would he want that?\u201d\u00a0 The fact is, she wanted that for <em>herself;<\/em> and she somehow fooled herself into thinking that he would like that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 So, she really legitimately thought, \u201cThis is something that would delight his heart on Christmas morning\u201d?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 I think she psyched herself out to believe that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 It happened on your side of the family, too, though didn\u2019t it?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes, my dad got <em>himself<\/em> and my mother a motorcycle for Christmas one year.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Which your mom was just dying for?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 And as a child, I remember seeing my mother\u2019s motorcycle pristine in the shed, where it was never used.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 You know, I\u2019m picturing you and Kim coming together.\u00a0 You\u2019ve been married how long now?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 21 years.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 21 years.\u00a0 So 21 years ago, here you\u2019ve got this man and woman coming together, saying they\u2019re about to learn how to love; and they both have images in their minds of their parents giving themselves presents.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\u00a0 Yes, or riding down the street with a brass wastebasket on motorcycles.\u00a0 (Laughter)\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 You say in the book that most of us <em>love<\/em> the way your daughter plays the piano.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Explain what you mean by that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes, both my girls play the piano.\u00a0 You know, how when you start playing the piano, you hang out right around middle C; and you play the eight keys on either side, and you kind of plink around.\u00a0 But the piano is this magnificent instrument.\u00a0 You can make it louder or softer, depending on how you hit the keys.\u00a0 You have these wonderful 88 keys.\u00a0 You have these wonderful light, airy notes on one end and these deep, dark notes on the other end.\u00a0 The piano\u2014you can play all kinds of <em>amazing <\/em>music on it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut most of us end up satisfied\u2014living love the way a kid starts playing the piano.\u00a0 You learn a few tunes that you can plink out, and you never develop any breadth.\u00a0 You stop <em>learning<\/em> how to love.\u00a0 You find out what\u2019s comfortable and what seems to work for you, and then you stop learning.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut when you understand that God is love, and Jesus is love incarnate, you should know that you\u2019re in for some surprises.\u00a0 As you read about Christ\u2019s life and as He instructs you about love, He\u2019s always blowing our categories.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 You\u2019re saying that we tend to live our lives playing <em>Chopsticks<\/em>?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\u00a0 Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 But what God wants to do is\u2014He wants us to venture out on the whole keyboard.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 And spend the rest of our lives learning how to do it better and better.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 How have you learned the love of God?\u00a0 In other words, give us some illustrations of what you mean here and what you\u2019ve learned about the love of God, both in terms of what it is, and in terms of what it isn\u2019t.\u00a0 Begin with what it isn\u2019t.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Well, I think, kind of an unspoken assumption as a newly-married husband for me was, \u201cI wanted my home to be a very safe and comfortable place.\u00a0 I wanted to come home from work, and I wanted dinner to be ready, and I wanted the laundry to be folded.\u00a0 I wanted my home to be comfortable for me.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 I counted five \u201cI wanted\u201ds in those statements.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Oh yes.\u00a0 I\u2019ve got more.\u00a0 I\u2019ve got more lined up for you.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Spoken as a good truly-married young man.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\u00a0 And I was unapologetic about it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Me, too.\u00a0 Me, too.\u00a0 So, it\u2019s okay.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 So, one of the things I noticed, though, especially as children came along, is that I\u2019d come home and dinner wasn\u2019t ready.\u00a0 My wife would be on the floor playing Candy Land<em>\u00ae<\/em>, you know, with the kids or going to one of their school events.\u00a0 At first, I got irritated.\u00a0 I started pitying myself.\u00a0 \u201cWhy are the kids becoming more important than me?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI sat down with Kim at one point; and she said, \u201cYou know, I love you as much as ever,\u201d she said, \u201cbut what I don\u2019t want to happen is\u2014I don\u2019t want to look back and see a bunch of missed opportunities.\u00a0 I love you and I\u2019ll always love you; but God has given us these children and they need our time and love, too.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIn that moment, God kind of helped me see that, \u201cYou can learn something about love from your wife,\u201d because she\u2019s saying in a much nicer way than needed to be said, \u201cOur marriage isn\u2019t about you being comfortable.\u00a0 It\u2019s about loving people who need to be loved; and right now, our kids need to be loved.\u00a0 They need me to play Candy Land with them, and that\u2019s more important than dinner being on time.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think the Holy Spirit had to work in me; but then I realized, \u201cI can\u2019t make my life about my own comfort.\u00a0 Living a life of love means people are more important than things.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Okay, I want you to tell the truth now.\u00a0 You\u2019re a trained counselor.\u00a0 You\u2019ve had a lot of years of education.\u00a0 You come home from work and your wife advises you about love?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\u00a0 She\u2019s good!\u00a0 Yes, like I said, \u201cA lot of times she models things more than she lectures me.\u201d I do occasionally get, \u201cYou\u2019re the marriage counselor.\u00a0 You figure it out,\u201d comments.\u00a0 She\u2019s not sinless herself, but she\u2014one of the things she shows me is\u2014a lot of times actions are more powerful than words.\u00a0 I see her <em>do<\/em> love, and that changes me.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Well, she\u2019s also showing you and telling you that people are more important than some of the things that you\u2019re valuing.\u00a0 In fact, you spend a lot of time in the book talking about whether we look at our spouse as a person or an object.\u00a0 That really shows up in whether we <em>honor <\/em>them or we try to manipulate them.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\u00a0 Yes, and this is sort of the next step in thinking about how our understanding love needs to be challenged.\u00a0 When we look at our spouses as people who exist basically, \u201cto love me the way I want to be loved,\u201d we are really not treating them like a person at all.\u00a0 We\u2019re treating them like an object.\u00a0 Objects are things that exist for our use, and there\u2019s nothing wrong with using or manipulating an object to get what you want out of it.\u00a0 That\u2019s what they\u2019re for.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut people, fundamentally, don\u2019t exist for us to get what we want out of them.\u00a0 People are made in the image of God; they\u2019re God\u2019s children, and we\u2019re called to <em>honor<\/em> them.\u00a0 I think we have to especially be careful to bring that attitude into our marriage.\u00a0 Marriage doesn\u2019t mean that my spouse exists for me\u2014especially, \u201cMy spouse doesn\u2019t exist to give me what I want.\u201d\u00a0 My spouse is a child of God who, yes, is called to love me; but that\u2019s not the same thing as saying, \u201cGive me what I want.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 At our <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em>\u00ae marriage getaways, when we\u2019re talking with couples around this, we will sometimes talk about the fact that we were created for marriage to be an interdependent relationship.\u00a0 We take a little bit of time to say it\u2019s unhealthy for it to be a dependent relationship\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 --what sometimes is labeled a \u201ccodependent\u201d relationship these days.\u00a0 It is also unhealthy for it to be an independent relationship.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 That\u2019s right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Help us understand where that sweet spot is and the danger on either side of it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 I love the imagery that Paul gives us in the Scripture of one flesh and the imagery of body.\u00a0 So now, talking about the life of the church, Paul talks about how we are members of one body.\u00a0 That\u2019s a picture of that interdependence that you\u2019re talking about, where we can be different because the members of the body are different.\u00a0 We\u2019re not supposed to be identical.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Mm hmm.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 But we are connected in a way that we mutually upbuild one another.\u00a0 There\u2019s this picture of being different but being connected in a way that builds up.\u00a0 I find in marriage counseling, sometimes couples are fighting because one or both spouses are insisting that the other become identical to them.\u00a0 \u201cYou need to think the way I think.\u00a0 You need to do life the way I do life,\u201d rather than saying, \u201cWell, maybe the differences are God\u2019s idea,\u201d so that you can complement and sharpen each other and build each other up.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo when I think of that sweet spot, it\u2019s recognizing the differences and learning how to live in them in a way that builds each other up.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 And celebrating those differences.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 As I think of the word, \u201chonor,\u201d in the Hebrew language, it meant to \u201clay it on someone,\u201d\u2014to lay a heavy weight of celebration on that other person.\u00a0 If you think about honoring your spouse, the way practically you can begin to lay something heavy in terms of celebrating their personhood\u2014you can do it by common courtesies.\u00a0 You can do it by caring for their needs, by anticipating what <em>the<\/em>y need, thinking about what their ideal day would be like, how you can meet their needs in a tough situation.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI remember going home from work; and I would arrive home and, as you just described earlier, our house was anything but a safe, quiet place.\u00a0 It was chaos; and the kids had my wife tied up emotionally, if not physically.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Literally.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\u00a0 It had been a tough day for Barbara, and we would begin the dinner.\u00a0 At the dinner table, we would celebrate Mom.\u00a0 I said, \u201cWe\u2019re going to go around the table, and we\u2019re going to talk about what we like best about Mom.\u201d\u00a0 Barbara sometimes would be so upset she wouldn\u2019t like it; but by the time you got a bunch of rug rats saying some goofy things like, \u201cShe lets me play with my toys,\u201d\u2014you know, that type of thing\u2014it melts the heart, and it does begin to celebrate the other person.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 But one of the things you say is that to treat your spouse as a valued possession, to adore your spouse, to put him or her on a pedestal\u2014that can actually be detrimental to a marriage relationship and cause the other person to shut down.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Right.\u00a0 Sometimes, I explain it as the difference between loving somebody and <em>needing<\/em> them\u2014needing them in that capital \u201cN\u201d kind of way, \u201cNeed.\u201d\u00a0 Loving somebody means doing what\u2019s best for them because it\u2019s best for them.\u00a0 When people talk about <em>needing<\/em> their spouse, often what they mean is, \u201cI have this sense of desperation when I can\u2019t get what I want from you.\u201d\u00a0 Their response to not getting what they want is angry punishing, losing the temper, or it could be withdrawing, or\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Or pleading, or begging, or\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 --or pleading, and that\u2019s needing somebody in the worst possible sense.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 So building up, encouraging, affirming another person\u2014to do what Dennis was talking about around the dinner table, where you\u2019re encouraging another person\u2014those are all biblical things to do; but if we\u2019re doing that out of some kind of a dependence- deficit in our own heart and our own life, that can put too great a weight on the other person\u2014something they can\u2019t live up to.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Right.\u00a0 God did not invent marriage to replace Himself.\u00a0 Marriage should <em>enhance <\/em>our understanding of God.\u00a0 It\u2019s a way to embody the love of God for another person but not to replace our fundamental <em>need<\/em> for God.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Let me read Romans 12:9-10 here.\u00a0 I think this is just a good reminder.\u00a0 It says, \u201cLet love be genuine.\u00a0 Abhor what is evil; hold fast to what is good.\u00a0 Love one another with brotherly affection.\u00a0 Outdo one another in showing honor.\u201d\u00a0 Of course, we would never want to put the person in a place of honor equal to God or in a place above God; that\u2019s idolatry.\u00a0 That\u2019s not healthy.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI don\u2019t think that\u2019s the biggest mistake we make in marriage.\u00a0 I think we withhold honor, we withhold ways of lifting the other person up, celebrating their differences.\u00a0 I mean, as I\u2019ve mentioned earlier, we\u2019ve been married 38 years.\u00a0 It seems like the past five years have been a new revelation of all the new, fresh ways I need my wife and how we\u2019re <em>very<\/em> different from one another.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBarbara and I have chosen, because we\u2019ve been trained by the Scripture, to err on the side of celebrating the differences rather than chipping away at the other person <em>because<\/em> of the differences.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 But sometimes those differences can be like sandpaper on one when we\u2019re in the process.\u00a0 Last night, at dinner, our 16-year-old son said, \u201cHey, is it okay on Saturday if I drive to Hot Springs?\u201d\u00a0 It\u2019s about an hour from here.\u00a0 I could tell immediately that my wife was thinking, \u201cThat\u2019s just a lousy idea.\u00a0 That\u2019s highway driving\u2014he\u2019s 16, doesn\u2019t have the experience doing that.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI\u2019m thinking, \u201cWell, there\u2019s no problem.\u00a0 He\u2019s been driving long enough.\u00a0 It\u2019s a Saturday morning, not a whole lot of traffic.\u00a0 He should be able to get to Hot Springs and back without a problem.\u201d\u00a0 Okay.\u00a0 Here\u2019s what got exposed in that whole process.\u00a0 What got exposed is that a part of what\u2019s behind my answer is the lowest-conflict response here to my son is, \u201cSure. Why not?\u201d\u00a0 I\u2019m not going to get any fight from him, the evening goes on peacefully\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Everybody\u2019s happy.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 That\u2019s part of the reason I want to let him go is because\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 You just switched the area of fight, though.\u00a0 You traded him for your wife.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Well, part of what was revealed in her answer is fear\u2014a desire to control her environment, her surroundings, her circumstances.\u00a0 Now we could pull back and we could say, \u201cWho is right?\u00a0 Bob or Mary Ann?\u201d\u00a0 That\u2019s <em>really<\/em> the wrong question to ask isn\u2019t it?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes, that\u2019s right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 We\u2019re really pulling back and saying, \u201cIn this ordinary moment, what\u2019s coming out that we need to pay attention to, and learn, and grow from?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Exactly.\u00a0 I would add to that, \u201cHow can we talk this through in a way that we\u2019re really loving each other, we\u2019re really listening and trying to learn from each other?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes, we could have used a little help in that area as this subject came out.\u00a0 If you\u2019d been at the house last night, maybe you could have coached us through some of that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 I got a slot open.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 We\u2019d have to pay you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 And a teenager\u2014what\u2019s he going to do?\u00a0 He\u2019s going to pounce on your answer, and there\u2019s the opening.\u00a0 \u201cMan, Dad\u2019s a softy.\u00a0 I\u2019ve got him working my side of the deal,\u201d so he pits you and Mary Ann against each other.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Right; and he can learn in the process that, \u201cIf I just give any evidence that I\u2019ll create some conflict, then Dad will cave quickly.\u201d\u00a0 A teenager\u2019s alert to that, without being intentional or malicious.\u00a0 They just go, \u201cI can see here\u2014if I just pout a little bit or if I just get a little angry, that\u2019ll cause Dad to back off because he\u2019s a low-conflict, pleaser-kind-of-person.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes, and what all of our kids need to see is us kind of working it through, honestly with our spouses.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 I was smart enough at the dinner table when it came up and he said, \u201cCan I do this?\u201d I said, \u201cYour mom and I will talk about it, and we\u2019ll get back to you.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Offline.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Away from him.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 It took five kids to get to where I can do that reflexively now.\u00a0 (Laughter)\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 He\u2019s going to be incredibly healthy.\u00a0 (Laughter)\u00a0 The other four are on their own.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes, that\u2019s right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Several times in this conversation you\u2019ve really talked about how marriage is not about us getting our needs met from the other person, but marriage has transcendent purposes designed by God for our good.\u00a0 It\u2019s interesting\u2014I\u2019m just reflecting as you\u2019ve talked here, Winston, that our <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em> marriage getaways\u2014this is what we teach at the conference and how we start the conference, talking about the transcendent purposes of marriage.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBecause I think one of the problems today\u2014we get into marriage and we dumb it down to the other person meeting all of our needs.\u00a0 We try to manipulate them; and we laughed about that at the beginning of the broadcast, talking about giving yourself a gift for Christmas, or for a birthday, or something.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut I think a lot of people are really <em>lost <\/em>in the middle keys, playing <em>Chopsticks<\/em>, as we talked about; and they don\u2019t experience the stereo, the breadth, the richness of the high tones and the deep tones, so that there\u2019s harmony between a husband and a wife.\u00a0 Some of our listeners have listened to us on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for a number of years talk about the <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em>, Bob, and they\u2019ve never been.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThey may be thinking, \u201cYou know, I\u2019m going to wait until my marriage has got a problem, and then we\u2019ll go fix it.\u201d\u00a0 Well you know what?\u00a0 That\u2019s <em>not<\/em> the time to go <em>address<\/em> your marriage.\u00a0 <em>Invest <\/em>in your marriage; go spend some time away as a couple, sitting and soaking in the teaching of Scripture in a godly perspective of what marriage is all about.\u00a0 That\u2019s what Winston talks about in his book, and it\u2019s what we attempt to do in the <em>Weekend to Remember.<\/em>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 You\u2019re saying a little preventive maintenance can go a long way?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 I mean, really!\u00a0 You think about.\u00a0 If you were given a car for a lifetime, and you knew that car had to last you for a lifetime, I\u2019ll guarantee you\u2019d be paying more attention to the maintenance on <em>every<\/em> part of that car.\u00a0 Well, marriage is a lifetime relationship far more important than any vehicle we\u2019ll ever own; and you need to invest <em>heavily<\/em> in your marriage relationship.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 But remember, it\u2019s a person, not an object you\u2019re dealing with. There is a difference between them.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 That\u2019s good.\u00a0 That\u2019s a good reminder\u2014and to celebrate the differences at that point.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 And for those who have never been to a <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em>, there is information available on our website, FamilyLifeToday.com.\u00a0 You can click on a link there; and it will take you to where you can get all the information about dates, locations.\u00a0 We\u2019ve got events taking place this weekend, next weekend, all through the month of November, into December, and then next spring as well.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, go online at FamilyLifeToday.com for more information about the <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em> marriage getaway and for information about Winston Smith\u2019s book, <em>Marriage Matters.<\/em>\u00a0 Go to FamilyLifeToday.com.\u00a0 That\u2019s FamilyLifeToday.com, or call 1-800-FLTODAY and ask how you can get a copy of the book.\u00a0 That\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tA couple of other quick reminders:\u00a0 On our website at FamilyLifeToday.com, we have a site that we have worked together with our friends at the Christian Counseling and Education Foundation, where Winston works, to address some of the difficult issues families will face in a marriage or as they raise their children\u2014issues that might send you to see a counselor or even a medical doctor.\u00a0 We have a link at FamilyLifeToday.com that will take you to that part of the website if you\u2019d like to check it out.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI also want to mention that the Christian Counseling and Education Foundation is about to host their national convention for this year; and there\u2019s a link at FamilyLifeToday.com if you\u2019d like to find out more about the convention.\u00a0 I think it\u2019s in Louisville, Kentucky, this year.\u00a0 It is coming up in a couple of weeks\u2014so, go to FamilyLifeToday.com for more information.\u00a0 This is a conference primarily for pastors, counselors, those who are involved in soul care, and again, the link is online at FamilyLifeToday.com.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tFinally, a quick word of thanks to those of you who help support the ministry\u2014make this ministry possible through your donations to <em>FamilyLife Today.<\/em>\u00a0 We are listener-supported.\u00a0 That means that it\u2019s folks like you who go online or call us and make a donation.\u00a0 You make it possible for this program to be on this station, and we appreciate your support.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThis week, if you\u2019re able to help with a donation, we\u2019d love to send you a copy of a book by Dennis and Barbara Rainey on praying together as a couple.\u00a0 It\u2019s called <em>Two Hearts Praying as One<\/em>, and it\u2019s our thank-you gift this week when you support the ministry with a donation.\u00a0 If you donate online at FamilyLifeToday.com, just type the word, \u201cONE,\u201d (O-N-E), into the key code box on the online donation form; or call us toll-free at 1-800-FLTODAY.\u00a0 Make your donation over the phone and ask for your copy of the book on praying together as a couple.\u00a0 We\u2019re happy to send it to you, and we do appreciate your support of the ministry of <em>FamilyLife Today.<\/em>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTomorrow, we\u2019re going to talk about anger and what we do when anger is a part of a marriage relationship on an ongoing basis.\u00a0\u00a0 Winston Smith is going to be back with us.\u00a0 Hope you can be back, as well.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team.\u00a0 On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine.\u00a0 We will see you back again for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHelp for today.\u00a0 Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you.\u00a0 However, there is a cost to produce them for our website.\u00a0 If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright \u00a9 2011 FamilyLife.\u00a0 All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\t1\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>","theme_header_position":"","post_header_is_sticky":"","is_header_overlay":""},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/302384","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/91"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=302384"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/294104"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=302384"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=302384"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=302384"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=302384"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=302384"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=302384"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}