{"id":302383,"date":"2011-10-19T11:00:00","date_gmt":"2011-10-19T15:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/extraordinary-change-through-ordinary-mo\/"},"modified":"2011-10-19T11:00:00","modified_gmt":"2011-10-19T15:00:00","slug":"extraordinary-change-through-ordinary-mo","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/extraordinary-change-through-ordinary-mo\/","title":{"rendered":"Extraordinary Change Through Ordinary Mo"},"content":{"rendered":"","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>We want change fast.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2011-10-19.mp3","podmotor_file_id":"","podmotor_episode_id":"","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:","filesize":"24.28M","filesize_raw":"25456001","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2805],"tags":[4086,4926,2877],"podcast_series":[7833],"cwp_profile":[9245],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-302383","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-gods-plan-for-marriage","tag-commitment","tag-faithfulness","tag-marriage","podcast_series-marriage-matters","cwp_profile-winston-smith","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/302383\/extraordinary-change-through-ordinary-mo","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/302383\/extraordinary-change-through-ordinary-mo","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"VfurOmHuvt\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/extraordinary-change-through-ordinary-mo\/\">Extraordinary Change Through Ordinary Mo<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/extraordinary-change-through-ordinary-mo\/embed\/#?secret=VfurOmHuvt\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Extraordinary Change Through Ordinary Mo&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"VfurOmHuvt\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2011-10-19.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2011-10-19.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Let\u2019s say there is an issue you\u2019re struggling with in your relationship with your spouse.\u00a0 Can you give that issue a name?\u00a0 Can you say whose problem it is, primarily?\u00a0 Winston Smith says, \u201cIf you started out by pointing at your spouse, you need to think again.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 We have to address ourselves <em>first<\/em> before we can credibly address our spouse.\u00a0 We have to deal with the fact that we\u2019re sinners and we\u2019re married to sinners.\u00a0 It\u2019s the natural instinct of the sinner to look outside of himself or herself for blame\u2014to blame shift.\u00a0 It just so happens that when sinners blame shift onto other sinners, they get really defensive and angry.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, Jesus really warns us about this in Matthew 7.\u00a0 \u201cIf you\u2019re going to try to remove the speck from another person\u2019s eye, you need to remove that 2 x 4 first from your own eye.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Wednesday, October 19th.\u00a0 Our host is the President of FamilyLife\u00ae, Dennis Rainey, and I\u2019m Bob Lepine.\u00a0 How much better would your marriage be if you were investing your time and effort into dealing with your <em>stuff<\/em>?\u00a0 We\u2019re going to talk about that today.\u00a0 Stay tuned.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWelcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\u00a0 Thanks for joining us.\u00a0 I think there are going to be a few paradigms that get <em>adjusted<\/em> today.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 You think?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 I was reading through what our guest wrote.\u00a0 One of the things he said was, \u201cYour love problems are God-problems.\u201d\u00a0 I thought, \u201cOkay.\u00a0 Alright.\u00a0 That\u2019s a little bit of a paradigm adjustment for a lot of folks, don\u2019t you think?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Spiritual wheel alignment is definitely going to be in order today.\u00a0 We have a guest with us who, I think, our audience is really going to enjoy.\u00a0 Winston Smith joins us on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\u00a0 Winston, welcome to our broadcast.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Thank you, Dennis.\u00a0 Good to be here with you and Bob.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Winston is a counselor, a faculty member.\u00a0 He teaches at the Christian Counseling and Education Foundation.\u00a0 He is an author of a new book called <em>Marriage Matters<\/em>.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI like the subtitle, <em>Extraordinary Change Through Ordinary Moments<\/em>.\u00a0 You actually believe, Winston, marriages begin to change and people begin to change when we look at life\u2019s circumstances from a different perspective.\u00a0 It\u2019s not the big deal, the \u201cAha\u201d moment.\u00a0\u00a0 It\u2019s just in looking at the normal every day, vanilla, run-of-the-mill stuff God brings to us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes, that\u2019s right.\u00a0 A lot of what I do is marriage counseling.\u00a0 The way most people think about change is, \u201cMy spouse is really making me unhappy.\u00a0 If I can just get the right book into their hands or take them to the right counselor and they can do their magic thing on them, then, my spouse will change; and I\u2019ll be happy again.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 If there is enough of those moments like you\u2019re talking about\u2014trying to get your spouse to change, and he or she doesn\u2019t change soon enough\u2014then, they\u2019re looking for a permanent change.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Right.\u00a0 Right.\u00a0 Then, they become hopeless. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 So, if that\u2019s not how change happens with the book, the counselor, or the right moment, how does it happen?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Well, there are lots of ways that our understanding of change needs be tweaked, but one of them is a change in the way we think about love itself.\u00a0 We don\u2019t pick up a dictionary and decide what love is.\u00a0 We construct definitions out of our own life experiences and what we see and hear.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen we get into marriage, our hope, our dream is that our spouse is going to <em>give<\/em> us love defined the way we want it to happen.\u00a0 When they don\u2019t, we fight tenaciously for it because we\u2019re fighting for love.\u00a0 We\u2019re fighting for something that is good.\u00a0 We\u2019re fighting for something that is right.\u00a0 Why wouldn\u2019t I fight for it?\u00a0 Why would I let go of that?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt just so happens, you married somebody who is put together a very <em>different<\/em> definition of love.\u00a0 They\u2019re going to fight just as tenaciously for their definition.\u00a0 I came to marriage, not knowing this, but really desperately desiring to be thought well of and to be accepted.\u00a0 So, I came to marriage just assuming, \u201cThis is what love is; this is how love works.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI found that the harder I worked for and the more I <em>demanded<\/em> an experience of being accepted, actually, the less loved I felt; because the more I focused on having that experience, I was filtering out everything else that was really important to love\u2014and punishing, being angry, and disappointed at my wife for not giving me that thing.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, part of me growing in my own marriage is having my definition reworked.\u00a0 That\u2019s exactly what Scripture gives us.\u00a0 That\u2019s exactly what Jesus does.\u00a0 God speaks to us.\u00a0 He says, \u201cLove isn\u2019t just an emotional high.\u00a0 Love isn\u2019t just something that exists to make you feel good.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tGod says in the Scripture, First John, Chapter 4, says, \u201cGod is love.\u201d\u00a0 Ultimately, love is a person and not an experience.\u00a0 So, we can\u2019t\u2014just out of our human fallen nature\u2014construct our own definition of love and expect that to work for us.\u00a0 We have to accept love as God defines it.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOne of the things He wants to do in our marriage is radically rework our understanding of love so that our marriages are more about Him than about us getting the things that we want.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 When Barbara and I were first married, I didn\u2019t know\u2014well, neither one of us really understood love.\u00a0 I feel like now, 38 years later, Barbara and I have begun to understand what true love really is all about.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think that is what you\u2019re talking about.\u00a0 Over a lifetime, God takes us to school.\u00a0 He tutors us.\u00a0 He puts His arm around us; and through these circumstances that occur in a marriage relationship, He teaches us how miserably we fail at loving and how much we have to learn from Him about what true love really is.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 So, when you say in your book, \u201cLove problems are really God-problems,\u201d unpack that.\u00a0 What do you mean by that?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 It means that I have these moments in my marriage where I just bump into these (what I call in the book) ordinary moments\u2014moments in marriage where we just run into the same problem over, and over, and over again.\u00a0 Let\u2019s imagine a couple.\u00a0 As you get to know them, there are three big fights they are always having.\u00a0 Okay?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, one big fight is when they\u2019re in the car together.\u00a0 The wife is always saying, \u201cWhy don\u2019t you slow down?\u00a0 You are scaring me to death.\u201d\u00a0 The husband\u2019s response is, \u201cWhy don\u2019t you stop nagging me?\u00a0 Why don\u2019t you stop your back-seat driving?\u201d\u00a0 Okay?\u00a0 So, that\u2019s fight one.\u00a0 Every time they\u2019re in the car, there is a fight.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOkay, you think that\u2019s not that big of a deal, but there are these other areas.\u00a0 They\u2019re always fighting about finances.\u00a0 The wife is always saying to the husband, \u201cYou spend money too freely.\u00a0 We don\u2019t have this kind of money.\u00a0 Why are you wasting money?\u201d\u00a0 Then, the husband says to his wife, \u201cWell, you\u2019re a miser.\u00a0 Why are you so stingy with money?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tFight number three is:\u00a0 The wife says, \u201cYou\u2019re harsh with our kids.\u00a0 You discipline our kids way too harshly.\u201d\u00a0 He says, \u201cWell, you\u2019re too soft.\u201d\u00a0 So, your initial thought of this couple is, \u201cYes, they have fights; but you give them a book on parenting\u2014you give them a book on finances.\u00a0 Then, they start working these things through.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAs you get to know them, you realize they\u2019re not just having fights about the car, finances, or parenting.\u00a0 They\u2019re actually themes that run through these fights that tell you something about their hearts\u2014things they need to realize about themselves.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf you think about it, this husband\u2014maybe, he\u2019s a husband who very much orients his life around convenience and comfort.\u00a0 He likes to do things his own way.\u00a0 He likes to drive fast; so, he drives fast.\u00a0 He\u2019s into his own comfort and pleasure.\u00a0 So, he spends money freely.\u00a0 He punishes his kids harshly when they get into his comfort zone.\u00a0 This is a guy who really largely organizes his life around comfort.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 The wife who is hearing you describe it goes, \u201cSee.\u00a0 I knew it was his problem!\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 When you think about this wife, this wife is actually kind of a fearful person.\u00a0 She is plain old scared in the car, when it\u2019s going too fast.\u00a0 She\u2019s afraid they\u2019re going to run out of finances, and her husband\u2019s anger scares her when he\u2019s punishing the kids.\u00a0 She\u2019s sort of a fearful person.\u00a0 She wants marriage, and she wants love to be something that makes her feel safe.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHe wants love, and he wants marriage to be something that makes him feel comfortable.\u00a0 Well, in some ways, you say there is something kind of right for both of them.\u00a0 I mean, there should be something comfortable and enjoyable about love, and love should make us feel safe.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThey\u2019ve each just located their\u2014sort of, favorite flavor\u2014their favorite variation of love\u2014and they are fighting like mad for that.\u00a0 They\u2019re missing the bigger\u2014actually, the more surprising features of love.\u00a0 In particular, when we look at Christ, we say, \u201cThis is what love is.\u00a0 Jesus is love.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOne of the most surprising things He does is He says, \u201cThere is no greater love than this\u2014than a man would lay down his life for his friends.\u201d\u00a0 Your love\u2014love ought to be rooted in selflessness and a desire to do what is best for the other person.\u00a0 So, Scripture would say this is the highest form of love\u2014just so happens to be what drives us crazy in marriage.\u00a0 \u201cYou want <em>me <\/em>to do less for <em>me<\/em> and more for <em>you<\/em>?\u00a0 That\u2019s not what I signed up for.\u00a0 This is supposed to be\u2014this is supposed to feel good to <em>me<\/em>.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 It\u2019s about <em>my<\/em> happiness. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\u00a0 That\u2019s the way a lot of people begin marriage.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 To move this from the theoretical\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 \u2014which was nice that you gave this little package of this couple who had fights in three areas\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>\u2014you begin your book by telling a story on yourself\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>\u00a0\u2014of some Bible study preparation.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 So, you\u2019re about to be a man of God\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 \u2014and teach the Scriptures.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 That\u2019s right.\u00a0 I had very important things to do.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Exactly.\u00a0 You\u2019re wife is late getting home.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 That\u2019s right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 So, you have to run your kids\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 \u2014and take them to various places.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\u00a0 I\u2019m trying to prepare for my Bible study.\u00a0 My wife is running late.\u00a0 It\u2019s really\u2014at one level, it\u2019s just harmless.\u00a0 \u201cSo, what?\u00a0 Your wife is running late.\u201d\u00a0 Well, that means, \u201cI have to take my son to baseball practice; I have to take my girl to her birthday party,\u201d I just find myself getting really steamed\u2014I mean, <em>really<\/em> angry.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cShe <em>said<\/em> she would call at a certain time.\u201d\u00a0 She didn\u2019t call.\u00a0 \u201cNow, I\u2019m left to run these errands on my own.\u201d\u00a0 I\u2019m getting really mad about it.\u00a0 I\u2019m sort of just imaging her\u2014just like\u2014blowing me off\u2014like, \u201cDoesn\u2019t she care that I have stuff to do, <em>really important<\/em> stuff?\u00a0 I mean, I\u2019m doing a Bible study, alright?\u201d\u00a0 So, she gets home.\u00a0 She can tell I\u2019m upset.\u00a0 I just give her\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 No, no, no, no.\u00a0 In the book, you say that your wife, Kim\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\u00a0 Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis<\/strong>:\u00a0 \u2014kind of retreats\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 \u2014from the kitchen table where you were steaming.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\u00a0 Yes.\u00a0 She\u2019s\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 It\u2019s like she was getting into another room.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 She was getting away from you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 She\u2019s retreating to a safe distance.\u00a0 Part of what happens there is\u2014I\u2019m sitting at the kitchen table.\u00a0 Part of me is really, really angry.\u00a0 Another part of me is really sort of embarrassed and ashamed because I know this is\u2014something is out of whack here.\u00a0 I shouldn\u2019t be that angry.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 You\u2019d done enough counseling to go, \u201cThere\u2019s something wrong here.\u201d\u00a0 (Laughter)\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\u00a0 Yes.\u00a0 This is a little over-the-top.\u00a0 I couldn\u2019t quite put my finger on <em>why <\/em>because this had become sort of an ordinary moment for me.\u00a0 \u201cHere\u2019s that feeling again.\u201d\u00a0 I\u2019m getting really angry because I\u2019m feeling \u201cdissed.\u201d\u00a0 I\u2019m feeling like she hasn\u2019t paid attention to what is important to me.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat\u2014the Lord kind of reminded me, \u201cHere it is again.\u00a0 Here is <em>you<\/em> fighting for your old definition of love.\u00a0 You want her to affirm you, to be thankful for your efforts, and live within your preferences.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Your natural inclination in that moment is the same as all of our natural inclinations, which is to locate the source of our problem in the other person\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 \u2014and say, \u201cThis is the problem.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 \u201cI\u2019m fine.\u201d<strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Then, our spouse is going, \u201cNo.\u00a0 That\u2019s the problem.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 \u201cI\u2019m fine.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>What you just described, though, was this process that you had to go through mentally.\u00a0 I don\u2019t know if you\u2019re conscience of this or if you\u2014if it\u2019s just a retraining of the mind, but you come to a point where you start to say, \u201cBefore I start to locate the problem somewhere else, I need to look <em>inside<\/em> rather than outside.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\u00a0 I mean, it\u2019s the result of being disciplined by God and hearing what He has to say.\u00a0 Listen, we have to deal with the fact that we\u2019re sinners and we\u2019re married to sinners.\u00a0 It is the natural instinct of the sinner to look outside of himself or herself for blame\u2014to blame shift.\u00a0 It just so happens that when sinners blame shift onto other sinners, they get really defensive and angry.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, Jesus really warns us about this in Matthew 7\u2014just a little, simple word picture, right?\u00a0 If you\u2019re going to try to remove the speck from another person\u2019s eye, you need to remove that 2 x 4 <em>first<\/em> from your own eye.\u00a0 He\u2019s warning us against the dangers of hypocrisy and defensiveness.\u00a0 We have to address ourselves <em>first<\/em> before we can credibly address our spouse.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThere is just a practical reality there.\u00a0 It will not work.\u00a0 It will not have a happy ending if your response to your own unhappiness is to immediately blame your spouse.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 You call these moments, when they occur in your marriage, like this\u2014god-less moments.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Explain what you mean by that because this was a take away for me as I was reading your book to really hear what you had to say about how we look at circumstances like what happened to you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\u00a0 I call them god-less moments because, in those moments when we feel like our buttons are really being pushed or our spouse is jumping up and down on our buttons, it\u2019s almost like anything you might have known about God and His love goes out the window.\u00a0 God seems irrelevant.\u00a0 What I\u2019m feeling is so overpowering\u2014I just don\u2019t know how to connect to what God has to say about Him, and about me, and about marriage.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat\u2019s a signal to you that there is something really important going on in your heart.\u00a0 There is something <em>commanding <\/em>and demanding your attention that\u2019s actually trying to <em>be <\/em>God.\u00a0 There\u2019s some desire or some fear\u2014something that you\u2019re feeling so powerfully\u2014that\u2019s really trying to displace God in that moment.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 As I was reading your book, I actually felt chastised.\u00a0 I felt disciplined that I had not really thought about the ordinary moments that you are speaking of being instructive to ultimately lead us back to God.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, I know theologically that that\u2019s what happens.\u00a0 I know that, but I was reminded of Romans 8:28.\u00a0 It\u2019s not a verse we typically quote around ordinary moments.\u00a0 It\u2019s usually a passage of Scripture that we quote around dramatic circumstances or something horrific that\u2019s happened to someone.\u00a0 I just want to read the passage again here, \u201cAnd we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to His purpose.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, that verse is really instructing us in the same principle you\u2019re talking about here.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 When it says, \u201call things,\u201d it means even the ordinary things, right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\u00a0 Actually, verse 29, there, is so important because it helps you define the good thing that He is up to.\u00a0 What we tend to do is take the <em>good thing<\/em> and load it with all of our desires and preferences.\u00a0 Paul is very specific there.\u00a0 It\u2019s to transform us\u2014to conform us\u2014to the image of His Son; but you are right.\u00a0 He takes every detail, every event in our life, and uses it to shape us in His love to make us more like His Son.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIn that sense, we\u2019d have to say, \u201cThere is no such thing as an ordinary moment because God is active in <em>all <\/em>moments,\u201d\u2014even the moments that seem the most god-less to us\u2014where we feel like we\u2019re failing, where we feel like God doesn\u2019t love us anymore.\u00a0 It\u2019s actually <em>those<\/em> moments where something really important can happen because there is a <em>war<\/em> going on in my heart, and it\u2019s showing up in my marriage.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 So, the paradigm shift that we\u2019re talking about here.\u00a0 I see it in two areas.\u00a0 One is to say ordinary moments aren\u2019t ordinary\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 \u2014God\u2019s at work in every aspect of our marriage, everything that seems mundane and incidental, God is there.\u00a0 Then, a paradigm shift around the whole idea of what love in a marriage is supposed to look like\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 \u2014and it having more to do with how God defines love than how we define love.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 That\u2019s right.\u00a0 It\u2019s\u2014for ordinary moments to become extraordinary opportunities for change, it requires a change in many different ways.\u00a0 It\u2019s not, \u201cOkay, I tried this for a week and my spouse isn\u2019t changing.\u00a0 So, I guess, it doesn\u2019t work.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNo, I change the way I love my spouse, not simply because I want my spouse to change, but because God is calling <em>me <\/em>to change.\u00a0 He wants <em>me<\/em> to become more loving.\u00a0 I do that, ultimately, because it changes <em>me<\/em>.\u00a0 I <em>have<\/em> to do this.\u00a0 I <em>hope<\/em> my spouse changes, but I change the way <em>I<\/em> love because of who God calls me to be in Christ.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 It may be that your marriage does not cease to be difficult\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u2014for a long time, maybe for a lifetime.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 If that is the case, there is a point at which you go, \u201cBoy, I hear what you are saying, but this is just <em>so <\/em>hard\u2014to keep loving in the face of rejection, or scorn, or contempt, or the things I\u2019m facing and seeing no hope of change.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Well, here is something that my wife has done consistently over the years that has changed me, without her telling me I need to change.\u00a0 She\u2014no matter how much I\u2019m the bigger \u201cbad guy,\u201d she almost always confesses sin first and asks for forgiveness.\u00a0 That\u2019s probably the single most powerful thing that has changed my heart over the years is when I\u2019m confronted with that kind of humility, love, and grace; I can\u2019t ignore it.\u00a0 It humbles me.\u00a0 It makes <em>me<\/em> want to repent.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, see, that is <em>her<\/em> doing the right thing because she loves the Lord and it is the right thing to do.\u00a0 That\u2019s not her lecturing me on how arrogant, and prideful, and stubborn I can be\u2014which would not work, by the way.\u00a0 That wasn\u2019t a marital strategy for her.\u00a0 That was just her saying, \u201cThis is what the Lord calls me to do\u2014to own my own sin, to repent and ask for forgiveness.\u201d\u00a0 It just so happens that when she does that, the Gospel shows up and the Lord uses that opportunity to work in my own heart.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 As I read your book and as I\u2019ve listened to you here today, here is my take away for me (maybe a listener will identify with this).\u00a0 Ultimately, Winston, you are challenging us to move to faith\u2014to move to a trust and a dependence upon God in ordinary circumstances.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Here is a statement I made, \u201cMy marriage will change when I begin to change, when I begin to recognize, yield, submit, and surrender to God\u2019s agenda for so-called ordinary moments.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt\u2019s not just an intellectual assent to identify the moment that God is up to something here; but ultimately, it must move to our hearts, where there is a surrender\u2014a personal surrender to God that says, \u201cGod, even in what looks like it\u2019s so ordinary, something I wish I could escape, I want to surrender to You.\u00a0 I want to be obedient to love as You have called me to love this imperfect person that I\u2019m married to.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>I think this takes us back to where we started the conversation.\u00a0 We have to change the way we think about change because somebody could hear what you just said and say, \u201cOkay, I\u2019ll try this for awhile and see if it fixes things.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tUltimately, responding in faith is, \u201cI will do what God has called me to do, come what may, and I will leave the results up to Him.\u201d\u00a0 In other words, this is not a temporary strategy to see if my spouse learns how to respond right.\u00a0 This is a way I\u2019m choosing to live, regardless of how my spouse responds.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\u00a0 I\u2019m thinking of a woman right now\u2014I know a great deal of detail about what she is facing in her marriage\u2014and she is doing this.\u00a0 From a human perspective, it makes zero sense.\u00a0 It is like, \u201cHow can you continue to hang in there in a situation where bad things are taking place?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOf course, I would never say to continue to allow yourself to be physically abused.\u00a0 There are Scriptural admonitions to us to use legal authorities to protect us in those situations; but the greater message here for most of the listeners who are listening right now, \u201cWill you see what God is up to and will you surrender to what He is doing in your own life first and be obedient to Him?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Will you love the way God demonstrates His love for us?\u2014in that, while we were still His enemies, He sacrificed.\u00a0 He sent His Son who died for us.\u00a0 I think that is what is at the heart of the book, Winston, called <em>Marriage Matters<\/em>, which we\u2019ve got in our <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Resource Center.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tListeners can go online at FamilyLifeToday.com for more information on how to get a copy, or call 1-800-FLTODAY; 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word \u201cTODAY,\u201d (800-358-6329).\u00a0 Ask about the book, <em>Marriage Matters<\/em>, by Winston Smith.\u00a0 We\u2019ll make arrangements to get a copy sent to you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe\u2019ve said here that one of the spiritual practices that ought to be present in every marriage relationship is a husband and wife who pray together regularly and how just the act of praying together is a spiritual discipline that God will use to strengthen the bond between the two of you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis, you and Barbara wrote a book a couple of years ago called <em>Two Hearts Praying as One<\/em>, where you address this issue of praying together as a couple.\u00a0 This week we are making copies of that book available to folks who can help support the ministry of FamilyLife with a donation.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe\u2019re listener-supported.\u00a0 Those donations are what make it possible for us to be on this station day in and day out.\u00a0 We appreciate those of you who are able to\u2014either go online at FamilyLifeToday.com and make a donation or to call 1-800-FLTODAY and make a donation over the phone. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf you make your donation online, be sure to type the word, \u201cONE\u201d (that\u2019s O-N-E), into the key code box; and we\u2019ll send you a copy of Dennis and Barbara\u2019s book; or call 1-800-FLTODAY.\u00a0 Make a donation over the phone and ask for a copy of the book on praying together as a couple.\u00a0 We\u2019ll get it out to you.\u00a0 We do appreciate your financial support of this ministry and are grateful for your donation.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe want to encourage you to be back with us again tomorrow when Winston Smith is going to be here again.\u00a0 We\u2019re going to talk about differences in a marriage relationship and how conflict can occur simply because we are different than each other.\u00a0 We\u2019ll talk more about that tomorrow.\u00a0 Hope you can tune in.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team.\u00a0 On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine.\u00a0 We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHelp for today.\u00a0 Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you.\u00a0 However, there is a cost to produce them for our website.\u00a0 If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright \u00a9 2011 FamilyLife.\u00a0 All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0 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want change fast.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2011-10-19.pdf","transcript_content":"<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Let\u2019s say there is an issue you\u2019re struggling with in your relationship with your spouse.\u00a0 Can you give that issue a name?\u00a0 Can you say whose problem it is, primarily?\u00a0 Winston Smith says, \u201cIf you started out by pointing at your spouse, you need to think again.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 We have to address ourselves <em>first<\/em> before we can credibly address our spouse.\u00a0 We have to deal with the fact that we\u2019re sinners and we\u2019re married to sinners.\u00a0 It\u2019s the natural instinct of the sinner to look outside of himself or herself for blame\u2014to blame shift.\u00a0 It just so happens that when sinners blame shift onto other sinners, they get really defensive and angry.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, Jesus really warns us about this in Matthew 7.\u00a0 \u201cIf you\u2019re going to try to remove the speck from another person\u2019s eye, you need to remove that 2 x 4 first from your own eye.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Wednesday, October 19th.\u00a0 Our host is the President of FamilyLife\u00ae, Dennis Rainey, and I\u2019m Bob Lepine.\u00a0 How much better would your marriage be if you were investing your time and effort into dealing with your <em>stuff<\/em>?\u00a0 We\u2019re going to talk about that today.\u00a0 Stay tuned.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWelcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\u00a0 Thanks for joining us.\u00a0 I think there are going to be a few paradigms that get <em>adjusted<\/em> today.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 You think?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 I was reading through what our guest wrote.\u00a0 One of the things he said was, \u201cYour love problems are God-problems.\u201d\u00a0 I thought, \u201cOkay.\u00a0 Alright.\u00a0 That\u2019s a little bit of a paradigm adjustment for a lot of folks, don\u2019t you think?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Spiritual wheel alignment is definitely going to be in order today.\u00a0 We have a guest with us who, I think, our audience is really going to enjoy.\u00a0 Winston Smith joins us on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\u00a0 Winston, welcome to our broadcast.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Thank you, Dennis.\u00a0 Good to be here with you and Bob.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Winston is a counselor, a faculty member.\u00a0 He teaches at the Christian Counseling and Education Foundation.\u00a0 He is an author of a new book called <em>Marriage Matters<\/em>.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI like the subtitle, <em>Extraordinary Change Through Ordinary Moments<\/em>.\u00a0 You actually believe, Winston, marriages begin to change and people begin to change when we look at life\u2019s circumstances from a different perspective.\u00a0 It\u2019s not the big deal, the \u201cAha\u201d moment.\u00a0\u00a0 It\u2019s just in looking at the normal every day, vanilla, run-of-the-mill stuff God brings to us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes, that\u2019s right.\u00a0 A lot of what I do is marriage counseling.\u00a0 The way most people think about change is, \u201cMy spouse is really making me unhappy.\u00a0 If I can just get the right book into their hands or take them to the right counselor and they can do their magic thing on them, then, my spouse will change; and I\u2019ll be happy again.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 If there is enough of those moments like you\u2019re talking about\u2014trying to get your spouse to change, and he or she doesn\u2019t change soon enough\u2014then, they\u2019re looking for a permanent change.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Right.\u00a0 Right.\u00a0 Then, they become hopeless. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 So, if that\u2019s not how change happens with the book, the counselor, or the right moment, how does it happen?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Well, there are lots of ways that our understanding of change needs be tweaked, but one of them is a change in the way we think about love itself.\u00a0 We don\u2019t pick up a dictionary and decide what love is.\u00a0 We construct definitions out of our own life experiences and what we see and hear.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen we get into marriage, our hope, our dream is that our spouse is going to <em>give<\/em> us love defined the way we want it to happen.\u00a0 When they don\u2019t, we fight tenaciously for it because we\u2019re fighting for love.\u00a0 We\u2019re fighting for something that is good.\u00a0 We\u2019re fighting for something that is right.\u00a0 Why wouldn\u2019t I fight for it?\u00a0 Why would I let go of that?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt just so happens, you married somebody who is put together a very <em>different<\/em> definition of love.\u00a0 They\u2019re going to fight just as tenaciously for their definition.\u00a0 I came to marriage, not knowing this, but really desperately desiring to be thought well of and to be accepted.\u00a0 So, I came to marriage just assuming, \u201cThis is what love is; this is how love works.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI found that the harder I worked for and the more I <em>demanded<\/em> an experience of being accepted, actually, the less loved I felt; because the more I focused on having that experience, I was filtering out everything else that was really important to love\u2014and punishing, being angry, and disappointed at my wife for not giving me that thing.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, part of me growing in my own marriage is having my definition reworked.\u00a0 That\u2019s exactly what Scripture gives us.\u00a0 That\u2019s exactly what Jesus does.\u00a0 God speaks to us.\u00a0 He says, \u201cLove isn\u2019t just an emotional high.\u00a0 Love isn\u2019t just something that exists to make you feel good.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tGod says in the Scripture, First John, Chapter 4, says, \u201cGod is love.\u201d\u00a0 Ultimately, love is a person and not an experience.\u00a0 So, we can\u2019t\u2014just out of our human fallen nature\u2014construct our own definition of love and expect that to work for us.\u00a0 We have to accept love as God defines it.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOne of the things He wants to do in our marriage is radically rework our understanding of love so that our marriages are more about Him than about us getting the things that we want.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 When Barbara and I were first married, I didn\u2019t know\u2014well, neither one of us really understood love.\u00a0 I feel like now, 38 years later, Barbara and I have begun to understand what true love really is all about.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think that is what you\u2019re talking about.\u00a0 Over a lifetime, God takes us to school.\u00a0 He tutors us.\u00a0 He puts His arm around us; and through these circumstances that occur in a marriage relationship, He teaches us how miserably we fail at loving and how much we have to learn from Him about what true love really is.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 So, when you say in your book, \u201cLove problems are really God-problems,\u201d unpack that.\u00a0 What do you mean by that?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 It means that I have these moments in my marriage where I just bump into these (what I call in the book) ordinary moments\u2014moments in marriage where we just run into the same problem over, and over, and over again.\u00a0 Let\u2019s imagine a couple.\u00a0 As you get to know them, there are three big fights they are always having.\u00a0 Okay?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, one big fight is when they\u2019re in the car together.\u00a0 The wife is always saying, \u201cWhy don\u2019t you slow down?\u00a0 You are scaring me to death.\u201d\u00a0 The husband\u2019s response is, \u201cWhy don\u2019t you stop nagging me?\u00a0 Why don\u2019t you stop your back-seat driving?\u201d\u00a0 Okay?\u00a0 So, that\u2019s fight one.\u00a0 Every time they\u2019re in the car, there is a fight.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOkay, you think that\u2019s not that big of a deal, but there are these other areas.\u00a0 They\u2019re always fighting about finances.\u00a0 The wife is always saying to the husband, \u201cYou spend money too freely.\u00a0 We don\u2019t have this kind of money.\u00a0 Why are you wasting money?\u201d\u00a0 Then, the husband says to his wife, \u201cWell, you\u2019re a miser.\u00a0 Why are you so stingy with money?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tFight number three is:\u00a0 The wife says, \u201cYou\u2019re harsh with our kids.\u00a0 You discipline our kids way too harshly.\u201d\u00a0 He says, \u201cWell, you\u2019re too soft.\u201d\u00a0 So, your initial thought of this couple is, \u201cYes, they have fights; but you give them a book on parenting\u2014you give them a book on finances.\u00a0 Then, they start working these things through.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAs you get to know them, you realize they\u2019re not just having fights about the car, finances, or parenting.\u00a0 They\u2019re actually themes that run through these fights that tell you something about their hearts\u2014things they need to realize about themselves.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf you think about it, this husband\u2014maybe, he\u2019s a husband who very much orients his life around convenience and comfort.\u00a0 He likes to do things his own way.\u00a0 He likes to drive fast; so, he drives fast.\u00a0 He\u2019s into his own comfort and pleasure.\u00a0 So, he spends money freely.\u00a0 He punishes his kids harshly when they get into his comfort zone.\u00a0 This is a guy who really largely organizes his life around comfort.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 The wife who is hearing you describe it goes, \u201cSee.\u00a0 I knew it was his problem!\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 When you think about this wife, this wife is actually kind of a fearful person.\u00a0 She is plain old scared in the car, when it\u2019s going too fast.\u00a0 She\u2019s afraid they\u2019re going to run out of finances, and her husband\u2019s anger scares her when he\u2019s punishing the kids.\u00a0 She\u2019s sort of a fearful person.\u00a0 She wants marriage, and she wants love to be something that makes her feel safe.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHe wants love, and he wants marriage to be something that makes him feel comfortable.\u00a0 Well, in some ways, you say there is something kind of right for both of them.\u00a0 I mean, there should be something comfortable and enjoyable about love, and love should make us feel safe.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThey\u2019ve each just located their\u2014sort of, favorite flavor\u2014their favorite variation of love\u2014and they are fighting like mad for that.\u00a0 They\u2019re missing the bigger\u2014actually, the more surprising features of love.\u00a0 In particular, when we look at Christ, we say, \u201cThis is what love is.\u00a0 Jesus is love.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOne of the most surprising things He does is He says, \u201cThere is no greater love than this\u2014than a man would lay down his life for his friends.\u201d\u00a0 Your love\u2014love ought to be rooted in selflessness and a desire to do what is best for the other person.\u00a0 So, Scripture would say this is the highest form of love\u2014just so happens to be what drives us crazy in marriage.\u00a0 \u201cYou want <em>me <\/em>to do less for <em>me<\/em> and more for <em>you<\/em>?\u00a0 That\u2019s not what I signed up for.\u00a0 This is supposed to be\u2014this is supposed to feel good to <em>me<\/em>.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 It\u2019s about <em>my<\/em> happiness. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\u00a0 That\u2019s the way a lot of people begin marriage.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 To move this from the theoretical\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 \u2014which was nice that you gave this little package of this couple who had fights in three areas\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>\u2014you begin your book by telling a story on yourself\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>\u00a0\u2014of some Bible study preparation.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 So, you\u2019re about to be a man of God\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 \u2014and teach the Scriptures.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 That\u2019s right.\u00a0 I had very important things to do.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Exactly.\u00a0 You\u2019re wife is late getting home.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 That\u2019s right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 So, you have to run your kids\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 \u2014and take them to various places.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\u00a0 I\u2019m trying to prepare for my Bible study.\u00a0 My wife is running late.\u00a0 It\u2019s really\u2014at one level, it\u2019s just harmless.\u00a0 \u201cSo, what?\u00a0 Your wife is running late.\u201d\u00a0 Well, that means, \u201cI have to take my son to baseball practice; I have to take my girl to her birthday party,\u201d I just find myself getting really steamed\u2014I mean, <em>really<\/em> angry.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cShe <em>said<\/em> she would call at a certain time.\u201d\u00a0 She didn\u2019t call.\u00a0 \u201cNow, I\u2019m left to run these errands on my own.\u201d\u00a0 I\u2019m getting really mad about it.\u00a0 I\u2019m sort of just imaging her\u2014just like\u2014blowing me off\u2014like, \u201cDoesn\u2019t she care that I have stuff to do, <em>really important<\/em> stuff?\u00a0 I mean, I\u2019m doing a Bible study, alright?\u201d\u00a0 So, she gets home.\u00a0 She can tell I\u2019m upset.\u00a0 I just give her\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 No, no, no, no.\u00a0 In the book, you say that your wife, Kim\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\u00a0 Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis<\/strong>:\u00a0 \u2014kind of retreats\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 \u2014from the kitchen table where you were steaming.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\u00a0 Yes.\u00a0 She\u2019s\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 It\u2019s like she was getting into another room.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 She was getting away from you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 She\u2019s retreating to a safe distance.\u00a0 Part of what happens there is\u2014I\u2019m sitting at the kitchen table.\u00a0 Part of me is really, really angry.\u00a0 Another part of me is really sort of embarrassed and ashamed because I know this is\u2014something is out of whack here.\u00a0 I shouldn\u2019t be that angry.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 You\u2019d done enough counseling to go, \u201cThere\u2019s something wrong here.\u201d\u00a0 (Laughter)\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\u00a0 Yes.\u00a0 This is a little over-the-top.\u00a0 I couldn\u2019t quite put my finger on <em>why <\/em>because this had become sort of an ordinary moment for me.\u00a0 \u201cHere\u2019s that feeling again.\u201d\u00a0 I\u2019m getting really angry because I\u2019m feeling \u201cdissed.\u201d\u00a0 I\u2019m feeling like she hasn\u2019t paid attention to what is important to me.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat\u2014the Lord kind of reminded me, \u201cHere it is again.\u00a0 Here is <em>you<\/em> fighting for your old definition of love.\u00a0 You want her to affirm you, to be thankful for your efforts, and live within your preferences.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Your natural inclination in that moment is the same as all of our natural inclinations, which is to locate the source of our problem in the other person\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 \u2014and say, \u201cThis is the problem.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 \u201cI\u2019m fine.\u201d<strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Then, our spouse is going, \u201cNo.\u00a0 That\u2019s the problem.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 \u201cI\u2019m fine.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>What you just described, though, was this process that you had to go through mentally.\u00a0 I don\u2019t know if you\u2019re conscience of this or if you\u2014if it\u2019s just a retraining of the mind, but you come to a point where you start to say, \u201cBefore I start to locate the problem somewhere else, I need to look <em>inside<\/em> rather than outside.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\u00a0 I mean, it\u2019s the result of being disciplined by God and hearing what He has to say.\u00a0 Listen, we have to deal with the fact that we\u2019re sinners and we\u2019re married to sinners.\u00a0 It is the natural instinct of the sinner to look outside of himself or herself for blame\u2014to blame shift.\u00a0 It just so happens that when sinners blame shift onto other sinners, they get really defensive and angry.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, Jesus really warns us about this in Matthew 7\u2014just a little, simple word picture, right?\u00a0 If you\u2019re going to try to remove the speck from another person\u2019s eye, you need to remove that 2 x 4 <em>first<\/em> from your own eye.\u00a0 He\u2019s warning us against the dangers of hypocrisy and defensiveness.\u00a0 We have to address ourselves <em>first<\/em> before we can credibly address our spouse.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThere is just a practical reality there.\u00a0 It will not work.\u00a0 It will not have a happy ending if your response to your own unhappiness is to immediately blame your spouse.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 You call these moments, when they occur in your marriage, like this\u2014god-less moments.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Explain what you mean by that because this was a take away for me as I was reading your book to really hear what you had to say about how we look at circumstances like what happened to you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\u00a0 I call them god-less moments because, in those moments when we feel like our buttons are really being pushed or our spouse is jumping up and down on our buttons, it\u2019s almost like anything you might have known about God and His love goes out the window.\u00a0 God seems irrelevant.\u00a0 What I\u2019m feeling is so overpowering\u2014I just don\u2019t know how to connect to what God has to say about Him, and about me, and about marriage.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat\u2019s a signal to you that there is something really important going on in your heart.\u00a0 There is something <em>commanding <\/em>and demanding your attention that\u2019s actually trying to <em>be <\/em>God.\u00a0 There\u2019s some desire or some fear\u2014something that you\u2019re feeling so powerfully\u2014that\u2019s really trying to displace God in that moment.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 As I was reading your book, I actually felt chastised.\u00a0 I felt disciplined that I had not really thought about the ordinary moments that you are speaking of being instructive to ultimately lead us back to God.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, I know theologically that that\u2019s what happens.\u00a0 I know that, but I was reminded of Romans 8:28.\u00a0 It\u2019s not a verse we typically quote around ordinary moments.\u00a0 It\u2019s usually a passage of Scripture that we quote around dramatic circumstances or something horrific that\u2019s happened to someone.\u00a0 I just want to read the passage again here, \u201cAnd we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to His purpose.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, that verse is really instructing us in the same principle you\u2019re talking about here.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 When it says, \u201call things,\u201d it means even the ordinary things, right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\u00a0 Actually, verse 29, there, is so important because it helps you define the good thing that He is up to.\u00a0 What we tend to do is take the <em>good thing<\/em> and load it with all of our desires and preferences.\u00a0 Paul is very specific there.\u00a0 It\u2019s to transform us\u2014to conform us\u2014to the image of His Son; but you are right.\u00a0 He takes every detail, every event in our life, and uses it to shape us in His love to make us more like His Son.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIn that sense, we\u2019d have to say, \u201cThere is no such thing as an ordinary moment because God is active in <em>all <\/em>moments,\u201d\u2014even the moments that seem the most god-less to us\u2014where we feel like we\u2019re failing, where we feel like God doesn\u2019t love us anymore.\u00a0 It\u2019s actually <em>those<\/em> moments where something really important can happen because there is a <em>war<\/em> going on in my heart, and it\u2019s showing up in my marriage.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 So, the paradigm shift that we\u2019re talking about here.\u00a0 I see it in two areas.\u00a0 One is to say ordinary moments aren\u2019t ordinary\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 \u2014God\u2019s at work in every aspect of our marriage, everything that seems mundane and incidental, God is there.\u00a0 Then, a paradigm shift around the whole idea of what love in a marriage is supposed to look like\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 \u2014and it having more to do with how God defines love than how we define love.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 That\u2019s right.\u00a0 It\u2019s\u2014for ordinary moments to become extraordinary opportunities for change, it requires a change in many different ways.\u00a0 It\u2019s not, \u201cOkay, I tried this for a week and my spouse isn\u2019t changing.\u00a0 So, I guess, it doesn\u2019t work.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNo, I change the way I love my spouse, not simply because I want my spouse to change, but because God is calling <em>me <\/em>to change.\u00a0 He wants <em>me<\/em> to become more loving.\u00a0 I do that, ultimately, because it changes <em>me<\/em>.\u00a0 I <em>have<\/em> to do this.\u00a0 I <em>hope<\/em> my spouse changes, but I change the way <em>I<\/em> love because of who God calls me to be in Christ.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 It may be that your marriage does not cease to be difficult\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u2014for a long time, maybe for a lifetime.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 If that is the case, there is a point at which you go, \u201cBoy, I hear what you are saying, but this is just <em>so <\/em>hard\u2014to keep loving in the face of rejection, or scorn, or contempt, or the things I\u2019m facing and seeing no hope of change.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Well, here is something that my wife has done consistently over the years that has changed me, without her telling me I need to change.\u00a0 She\u2014no matter how much I\u2019m the bigger \u201cbad guy,\u201d she almost always confesses sin first and asks for forgiveness.\u00a0 That\u2019s probably the single most powerful thing that has changed my heart over the years is when I\u2019m confronted with that kind of humility, love, and grace; I can\u2019t ignore it.\u00a0 It humbles me.\u00a0 It makes <em>me<\/em> want to repent.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, see, that is <em>her<\/em> doing the right thing because she loves the Lord and it is the right thing to do.\u00a0 That\u2019s not her lecturing me on how arrogant, and prideful, and stubborn I can be\u2014which would not work, by the way.\u00a0 That wasn\u2019t a marital strategy for her.\u00a0 That was just her saying, \u201cThis is what the Lord calls me to do\u2014to own my own sin, to repent and ask for forgiveness.\u201d\u00a0 It just so happens that when she does that, the Gospel shows up and the Lord uses that opportunity to work in my own heart.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 As I read your book and as I\u2019ve listened to you here today, here is my take away for me (maybe a listener will identify with this).\u00a0 Ultimately, Winston, you are challenging us to move to faith\u2014to move to a trust and a dependence upon God in ordinary circumstances.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Winston:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Here is a statement I made, \u201cMy marriage will change when I begin to change, when I begin to recognize, yield, submit, and surrender to God\u2019s agenda for so-called ordinary moments.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt\u2019s not just an intellectual assent to identify the moment that God is up to something here; but ultimately, it must move to our hearts, where there is a surrender\u2014a personal surrender to God that says, \u201cGod, even in what looks like it\u2019s so ordinary, something I wish I could escape, I want to surrender to You.\u00a0 I want to be obedient to love as You have called me to love this imperfect person that I\u2019m married to.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>I think this takes us back to where we started the conversation.\u00a0 We have to change the way we think about change because somebody could hear what you just said and say, \u201cOkay, I\u2019ll try this for awhile and see if it fixes things.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tUltimately, responding in faith is, \u201cI will do what God has called me to do, come what may, and I will leave the results up to Him.\u201d\u00a0 In other words, this is not a temporary strategy to see if my spouse learns how to respond right.\u00a0 This is a way I\u2019m choosing to live, regardless of how my spouse responds.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\u00a0 I\u2019m thinking of a woman right now\u2014I know a great deal of detail about what she is facing in her marriage\u2014and she is doing this.\u00a0 From a human perspective, it makes zero sense.\u00a0 It is like, \u201cHow can you continue to hang in there in a situation where bad things are taking place?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOf course, I would never say to continue to allow yourself to be physically abused.\u00a0 There are Scriptural admonitions to us to use legal authorities to protect us in those situations; but the greater message here for most of the listeners who are listening right now, \u201cWill you see what God is up to and will you surrender to what He is doing in your own life first and be obedient to Him?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Will you love the way God demonstrates His love for us?\u2014in that, while we were still His enemies, He sacrificed.\u00a0 He sent His Son who died for us.\u00a0 I think that is what is at the heart of the book, Winston, called <em>Marriage Matters<\/em>, which we\u2019ve got in our <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Resource Center.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tListeners can go online at FamilyLifeToday.com for more information on how to get a copy, or call 1-800-FLTODAY; 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word \u201cTODAY,\u201d (800-358-6329).\u00a0 Ask about the book, <em>Marriage Matters<\/em>, by Winston Smith.\u00a0 We\u2019ll make arrangements to get a copy sent to you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe\u2019ve said here that one of the spiritual practices that ought to be present in every marriage relationship is a husband and wife who pray together regularly and how just the act of praying together is a spiritual discipline that God will use to strengthen the bond between the two of you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis, you and Barbara wrote a book a couple of years ago called <em>Two Hearts Praying as One<\/em>, where you address this issue of praying together as a couple.\u00a0 This week we are making copies of that book available to folks who can help support the ministry of FamilyLife with a donation.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe\u2019re listener-supported.\u00a0 Those donations are what make it possible for us to be on this station day in and day out.\u00a0 We appreciate those of you who are able to\u2014either go online at FamilyLifeToday.com and make a donation or to call 1-800-FLTODAY and make a donation over the phone. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf you make your donation online, be sure to type the word, \u201cONE\u201d (that\u2019s O-N-E), into the key code box; and we\u2019ll send you a copy of Dennis and Barbara\u2019s book; or call 1-800-FLTODAY.\u00a0 Make a donation over the phone and ask for a copy of the book on praying together as a couple.\u00a0 We\u2019ll get it out to you.\u00a0 We do appreciate your financial support of this ministry and are grateful for your donation.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe want to encourage you to be back with us again tomorrow when Winston Smith is going to be here again.\u00a0 We\u2019re going to talk about differences in a marriage relationship and how conflict can occur simply because we are different than each other.\u00a0 We\u2019ll talk more about that tomorrow.\u00a0 Hope you can tune in.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team.\u00a0 On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine.\u00a0 We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHelp for today.\u00a0 Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you.\u00a0 However, there is a cost to produce them for our website.\u00a0 If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright \u00a9 2011 FamilyLife.\u00a0 All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0 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