{"id":302375,"date":"2011-10-07T11:00:00","date_gmt":"2011-10-07T15:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/be-angry-but-do-not-sin\/"},"modified":"2011-10-07T11:00:00","modified_gmt":"2011-10-07T15:00:00","slug":"be-angry-but-do-not-sin","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/be-angry-but-do-not-sin\/","title":{"rendered":"Be Angry, But Do Not Sin"},"content":{"rendered":"","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Sexual abuse is at epidemic levels.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2011-10-07.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:","filesize":"29.33M","filesize_raw":"30756617","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2873],"tags":[4129,2989,2320,2991],"podcast_series":[7830],"cwp_profile":[8833],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-302375","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-mental-and-emotional-issues","tag-homosexuality","tag-pornography","tag-purity","tag-sex","podcast_series-rid-of-my-disgrace","cwp_profile-justin-holcomb","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/302375\/be-angry-but-do-not-sin","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/302375\/be-angry-but-do-not-sin","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"Hoo9MZ9jeo\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/be-angry-but-do-not-sin\/\">Be Angry, But Do Not Sin<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/be-angry-but-do-not-sin\/embed\/#?secret=Hoo9MZ9jeo\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Be Angry, But Do Not Sin&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"Hoo9MZ9jeo\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2011-10-07.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2011-10-07.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Is it possible for you to really forgive your attacker if you\u2019ve been sexually assaulted?\u00a0 Justin Holcomb says it\u2019s possible if you\u2019ve been a recipient of God\u2019s grace yourself.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Justin:<\/strong>\u00a0 This is going to take a miracle. Forgiveness is a miracle.\u00a0 We don\u2019t naturally forgive people who sin against us.\u00a0 We hate other people.\u00a0 We don\u2019t love God and we don\u2019t love our neighbor.\u00a0 That\u2019s the summary of the Law. When God forgives us of our cosmic sin, He gives us a new heart.\u00a0 So we actually do love God and we do love our neighbor.\u00a0 Then the miracle is that you would actually want to forgive and <em>hope<\/em> to see reconciliation.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Friday, October 7th.\u00a0 Our host is the president of FamilyLife\u00ae, Dennis Rainey, and I\u2019m Bob Lepine.\u00a0 We\u2019ll talk today about having the wisdom and the grace to forgive someone who has sexually assaulted you.\u00a0 Stay tuned.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\u00a0 Thanks for joining us.\u00a0 We are tackling a tough subject this week.\u00a0 I just want to encourage listeners\u2014again, because of the nature of the subject, you may want to use some discernment about who\u2019s listening to today\u2019s program.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br>But, Dennis, see if this makes sense.\u00a0 I was thinking about this.\u00a0 We have some organs in our body that are non-essential organs.\u00a0 If your gall bladder has to be removed; life can go on without a gall bladder.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 I no longer have an appendix.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 There you go.\u00a0 If your heart has problems, it\u2019s a different deal.\u00a0 You can\u2019t get along without a heart.\u00a0 As we talk about the issue of sexual assault or sexual damage, I was thinking that our sexuality is kind of like an essential organ in the soul.\u00a0 When there is damage done to a person\u2019s sexuality, that affects every part of their soul.\u00a0 If you don\u2019t address that damage, if you don\u2019t deal with the damage that\u2019s been done, you walk wounded.\u00a0 You walk emotionally-wounded for the rest of your life.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Dennis:<\/strong> This is overly simplified, but what\u2019s the first question we ask when a baby\u2019s born?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Is it a boy or a girl?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 What\u2019s its sex, right?\u00a0 From that point on, sexuality really is an identifying factor.\u00a0 In fact, it\u2019s a big deal today in our nation\u2014discussing this.\u00a0 Are there just two sexes or multiple sexes?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWell, I think what we\u2019re talking about here concerning sexual abuse is very important to understand; and we have a guest here with us, Justin Holcomb, who has spent a number of years dedicated to addressing the needs in people\u2019s lives.\u00a0 He\u2019s written a book, along with his wife Lindsey, called <em>Rid of My Disgrace<\/em>.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to welcome you back to the broadcast, Justin.\u00a0 I\u2019m sorry your wife\u2019s not here, though.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Justin:<\/strong>\u00a0 I wish she could be here, too.\u00a0 You both would really enjoy talking to her.\u00a0 She\u2019s charming and wonderful.\u00a0 She\u2019s much more the better half.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 She\u2019s trained as a counselor, as a therapist, as well, right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Justin:<\/strong>\u00a0 She worked as a sexual-assault crisis counselor so she was on the hotline at two o\u2019clock in the morning.\u00a0 She\u2019d get the calls.\u00a0 She would go with men and women to the hospital.\u00a0 She would go to the police with them\u2014advocacy.\u00a0 She also worked at a domestic violence shelter.\u00a0 Many women, who are abused in domestic violence situations, have also been sexually-assaulted.\u00a0 She also has a Masters in international public health, focusing on sexual violence towards women.\u00a0 So, she\u2019s amazing.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 You have your Masters in Theology.\u00a0 You\u2019re on the pastoral staff at Mars Hill Church in Seattle.\u00a0 Together, you guys have written a book called <em>Rid of My Disgrace<\/em>.\u00a0 You\u2019ve together counseled with hundreds of people who have been victimized with sexual abuse.\u00a0 It was a part of your own background and your own experience.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI\u2019m just curious?\u00a0 I made the statement that it feels like sexual abuse is really damage to an essential organ of the soul.\u00a0 Is that an overstatement?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Justin:<\/strong>\u00a0 No, not at all.\u00a0 That\u2019s how God made things.\u00a0 He\u2019s the One who said, \u201cThis is a gift between man and women.\u201d\u00a0 It\u2019s not the only picture of unity, but it\u2019s one of the pictures of unity and harmony in the way things are supposed to be.\u00a0 It\u2019s not a shock.\u00a0 If you look at the Bible, that with sin entering the world, that this would be one of the things that creates so much devastation.\u00a0 Sexual assault in Scripture is used as a symbol of how far and how bad sin has gotten.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 And we live in a culture that almost celebrates it.\u00a0 We\u2019ve turned it on its head; and I have to wonder if folks who are wrestling with depression today, or out-o- control anger today, or a sense of despair and worthlessness and shame\u2014a lot of those folks have never traced back those feelings to sexual assault that happened to them as a child or as a teenager.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Justin:<\/strong>\u00a0 Well, it\u2019s one out of five.\u00a0 If it\u2019s one out of four women and one out of six men, have or will be, that\u2019s at least that we know of.\u00a0 Those are conservative numbers.\u00a0 At least one out of five people that you know\u2014that we know\u2014have been victims or will be victims of sexual assault.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Okay.\u00a0 You were sexually abused when you were 10, 11, 12 years of age.\u00a0 I want to ask you about the anger, the rage\u2014that undoubtedly you felt after you took a step back.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Well, you talk about shame, and despair, and anger, and all of these things.\u00a0 Did you experience the full gamut of it?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Justin:<\/strong>\u00a0 I did.\u00a0 We talk about six specific issues; but I\u2019m going to come right back to the anger and rage.\u00a0 The six we looked at are denial and minimizing, identity, shame, guilt, anger, and despair.\u00a0 Those are the six from counselors who deal from this\u2014from all the research, and from\u2014antidotally\u2014people we\u2019ve talked to.\u00a0 Those are the six we realize were the real \u201cdoozies\u201d we wanted to go after.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI love that you asked the anger question because that was mine.\u00a0\u00a0 So, the anger and forgiveness chapter\u2014we put that one together.\u00a0 That was the one that was the most enjoyable for me to write.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 What did that look like for you as a teenage boy or as a new husband?\u00a0 I\u2019m just imagining how that anger seeped out in your\u2014or were you able to kind of \u201ckeep it toned-down\u201d?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Justin:<\/strong>\u00a0 It was toned-down for a while, but anger\u2019s like a hydraulic system.\u00a0 It\u2019s going to come out somewhere.\u00a0 In later twenties, thirties, I started realizing, \u201cMan, I kind of got furious.\u201d\u00a0 And then when he became a Christian, it made things <em>really<\/em> interesting because\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Your perpetrator became a Christian?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Justin:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\u00a0 So, I knew I was supposed to forgive him; but the anger!\u00a0 What was most helpful for me was Ephesians 4, because\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Now, wait.\u00a0 I want you to get to Ephesians 4; but I have to believe there\u2019s a listener right now who is going, \u201cTalk more about what you were feeling\u2014your rage.\u201d\u00a0 And it\u2019s not a matter of being voyeuristic into what happened.\u00a0 It\u2019s a matter of, \u201cHow controlling was it?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Justin:<\/strong>\u00a0 I wanted to hurt him.\u00a0 I wanted to mock him.\u00a0 I wanted to belittle him, and I wanted to physically hurt him.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 You wanted to publicly expose him?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Justin:<\/strong>\u00a0 No, because that would have required me looking like I was trying to get revenge or something.\u00a0 I didn\u2019t want to look small, trying to get revenge.\u00a0 So I was getting my own revenge in the ways that I could, as strategically as possible.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 So, back to the Bible\u2014back to Ephesians 4.\u00a0 Was it your forgiveness of him and going to him to forgive him that was your public statement and coming out of your own prison?\u00a0 Or did you do that with another person before you went to him?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Justin:<\/strong>\u00a0 It was another person.\u00a0 I had to actually work through the forgiveness with someone, talking to my wife and others about where I was before I could actually articulate that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 So others helped you\u2014?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Justin:<\/strong>\u00a0 Oh yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 --get out of the prison?\u00a0 That\u2019s important.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Justin:<\/strong>\u00a0 I wasn\u2019t even sure\u2014I didn\u2019t know that I was that angry.\u00a0 So, I needed other people to say, \u201cYou\u2019re really ticked off about this.\u201d\u00a0 I realized that was the case\u2014that I was <em>furious<\/em>!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 You\u2019re a pastor with a theology degree.\u00a0 But (a) you still had this going on inside; and (b) you still needed help from others.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Justin:<\/strong>\u00a0 Oh, yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 I just want folks to understand.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 That\u2019s important.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 We all need community. W e all need folks who are holding up the mirror and say, \u201cHuh?\u00a0 How does this look to you?\u201d\u00a0 And when your friends held up the mirror to you and you saw it, you had to address that what you were doing was hanging on to sin, weren\u2019t you?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Justin:<\/strong>\u00a0 And that\u2019s what communities do.\u00a0 They reflect the truth back to you, but then Christian communities also get to be agents of reconciliation and grace.\u00a0 So, the people who were saying it, they weren\u2019t saying it like, \u201cOh, you\u2019re not doing good managing your anger!\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 What a bad person you are!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Justin:<\/strong>\u00a0 It was, \u201cHey, we\u2019re going to show you the truth; but here we go.\u00a0 And you have been forgiven of a lot and out of that forgiveness will come\u2014\u201d\u00a0\u00a0 So, they were speaking wonderful, powerful grace to me.\u00a0 That\u2019s what motivated me.\u00a0 We went through Ephesians 4; and it said, \u201cBe angry; but in your anger, do not sin.\u201d\u00a0 That one line was huge for me.\u00a0 I had, \u201cAnger is sin\u201d\u2014that\u2019s over there.\u00a0 \u201cDon\u2019t be angry.\u201d\u00a0 Then I realized, \u201cWait a second, I\u2019m allowed to be angry!\u201d\u00a0 Not only am I allowed to be angry, God\u2019s angry at what happened to me.\u00a0 He\u2019s angry at sin and the affects of it.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, <em>my<\/em> response is to participate in <em>His<\/em> anger.\u00a0 He does anger perfectly.\u00a0 I do anger sinfully.\u00a0 So, \u201cBe angry; but in your anger, do not sin.\u201d\u00a0 Then, at the end of Ephesians 4, it says, \u201cForgive as Christ has forgiven you.\u201d\u00a0 Then I thought of the parable of the unforgiving servant.\u00a0 I thought, \u201cI\u2019ve committed cosmic treason against my Creator.\u201d\u00a0 If God can forgive me of cosmic treason, I wanted to be able to forgive him.\u00a0 Just the <em>desire<\/em> to want to forgive was <em>huge<\/em>\u2014where I thought\u2014the saying is, \u201cBitterness is drinking poison and hoping it will kill your enemy.\u201d\u00a0 I thought, \u201cThat\u2019s what\u2019s happening,\u201d is that, \u201cI\u2019m furious, and he doesn\u2019t even care.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 You\u2019re summarizing a process that took place over what period of time?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Justin:<\/strong>\u00a0 This was at <em>leas<\/em>t seven years ago.\u00a0 It was a while ago.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 And how long did it take you after you entered the process and admitted your anger, until you ultimately had the meeting with him and expressed forgiveness?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Justin:<\/strong>\u00a0 It took a few years.\u00a0 I wanted to actually say it and mean it. I didn\u2019t want to just say\u2014and, also, just practically, just distance.\u00a0 There wasn\u2019t an arena.\u00a0 There were other things going on in his life where it would have been selfish of me to say, \u201cHey, this needs to be real important,\u201d because he was going through some other things in his life.\u00a0 So, it took a while.\u00a0 I waited until we would be in the same city and not just, \u201cDo it.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Justin, I appreciate the integrity of that.\u00a0 You just kind of said it under your breath, \u201cI wanted the forgiveness to be real, to be authentic.\u201d\u00a0 I think sometimes we\u2019re so familiar within the Christian community with terms like grace, mercy, forgiveness; and these are terms that cost our Savior His life.\u00a0 We throw around, \u201cOh, I forgive you.\u00a0 You got my grace.\u00a0 You can\u2014Yes, it\u2019s okay.\u00a0 Keep on.\u201d\u00a0 I think it\u2019s disingenuous.\u00a0 I think it may, at points, mock a process that needs to take place in the soul, where the Holy Spirit truly works a work of grace.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI heard you say under your breath, also, you recognized what he was going through.\u00a0 The timing of you going, and confronting him, and forgiving him wouldn\u2019t have been healthy to him.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Justin:<\/strong>\u00a0 I wanted reconciliation, not just forgiveness.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 It\u2019s Galatians, Chapter 6, you know.\u00a0 It\u2019s going with an attitude of confronting about the sin, but going to restore.\u00a0 It sounds to me like you went to restore him, not merely just pass on forgiveness.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 So when you called him and said, \u201cHey, I\u2019d like to get together.\u201d\u00a0 What did he say?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Justin:<\/strong>\u00a0 He had no idea why.\u00a0 So, \u201cYes.\u00a0 Why not?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 When you said he had no idea why\u2014in the back of his mind is any\u2014he\u2019s remembering what he\u2019s done to you all those years ago?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Justin:<\/strong>\u00a0 He didn\u2019t seem to be anticipating it at all.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 He wasn\u2019t looking in the rear view mirror?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Justin:<\/strong>\u00a0 No, there was no indication that he was.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 When you sat down and you said, \u201cHere\u2019s what I want to talk to you about.\u201d\u00a0 I mean, just take us\u2014what was that experience like?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Justin:<\/strong>\u00a0 He minimized it a little bit.\u00a0 I expected him to.\u00a0 I wasn\u2019t there to try to rub his nose in it.\u00a0 I said, \u201cHey, this is\u2014I want to talk to you about this.\u00a0 This is what happened.\u00a0 Do you remember that?\u201d\u00a0 \u201cYes, yes.\u201d\u00a0 But he made it sound like, \u201cOh yes, that\u2019s what boys do\u201d type of thing.\u00a0 I was curious and exploring.\u201d\u00a0 I was like \u201cNo, that\u2019s not how I remembered it; but I\u2019ve been angry at you for this.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, I used it really as my confession of my sinful response to his sin.\u00a0 Whether or not he was going to repent, I wanted to repent to him for my anger.\u00a0 So I did.\u00a0 I said, \u201cI\u2019ve hated <em>you<\/em>.\u00a0 I\u2019ve wanted <em>bad <\/em>for you.\u00a0 I wanted you to get locked up.\u00a0 When I knew things weren\u2019t going well in other dimensions of your life, I was happy.\u00a0 I was actually in favor of bad things, <em>hoping<\/em> for bad things to happen to you.\u00a0 That\u2019s not right, and you believe in Jesus.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen he was not believing in Jesus, I rationalized that it was okay for me to hate him because, you know, \u201cHe\u2019s a reprobate, and so it\u2019s okay.\u201d\u00a0 I just had weird rationalizations for it.\u00a0 When he became a Christian, that just messed me up.\u00a0 I realized, \u201cOh, Jesus can forgive him.\u00a0 I would like to get in line with that.\u201d\u00a0 I didn\u2019t want to go there and go bestowing forgiveness.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat I was hoping for was something crazy like reconciling.\u00a0 I don\u2019t plan on being buddy, buddy with him; but I wanted to have a sense of, \u201cWe\u2019re both Christians.\u00a0 We\u2019ve both sinned.\u00a0 I\u2019ve sinned against you.\u00a0 You\u2019ve sinned against me.\u00a0 We\u2019re not going to try to figure out which one was worse and all that.\u00a0 We\u2019re both going to look at Christ now.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Justin, you\u2019re making this story sound very rational, cognitive, logical.\u00a0 I have to believe you were filled with all kinds of emotions, going to confront somebody who had done evil to you.\u00a0 What were you feeling?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Justin:<\/strong>\u00a0 I was wondering if I was doing the right thing.\u00a0 I didn\u2019t know if I should\u2014I didn\u2019t want to bring it up because I thought bringing up the past\u2014maybe I shouldn\u2019t do that because I\u2019m keeping a record of wrong.\u00a0 I\u2019m saying this as a seminary professor.\u00a0 I pastored, a PhD.\u00a0 So, this is really what\u2019s going on, \u201cOkay, am I\u2014\u201c?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Kind of checklist.\u00a0 The spiritual checklist deal.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Justin:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\u00a0 I don\u2019t trust myself with my own perspectives.\u00a0 So, I\u2019m asking a lot of people, \u201cOkay, I\u2019m supposed to do this, right?\u201d\u00a0 Again, going back to the community\u2014I had people saying, \u201cWe think you should.\u00a0 We think that would be <em>good<\/em>.\u201d\u00a0 No one said, \u201cYou\u2019ve got to forgive and forget.\u00a0 Come on, get this forgiveness -thing going,\u201d\u2014like it was some type of a hovering imperative command that I had better do.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt was actually like, \u201cYou\u2019ve been forgiven.\u00a0 You <em>get<\/em> to forgive.\u00a0 You <em>get<\/em> to actually <em>see<\/em> the grace you\u2019ve been given, going as an agent.\u00a0 You\u2019ve been reconciled with God, and now you\u2019re an agent of reconciliation.\u00a0 You get to participate in that.\u201d\u00a0 It was the wondering, \u201cIf I was keeping a record of wrong,\u201d to kind of the excitement and anticipation of, \u201cThis is going to take a miracle.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tForgiveness is a <em>miracle<\/em>. We don\u2019t naturally <em>forgive<\/em> people who sin against us.\u00a0 We hate other people.\u00a0 We don\u2019t love God and we don\u2019t love our neighbor.\u00a0 That\u2019s the summary of the Law.\u00a0 When God forgives us of our cosmic sin, He gives us a new heart so we actually do love God and we do love our neighbor.\u00a0 Then the <em>miracle<\/em> is that you would actually want to forgive and <em>hope<\/em> to see reconciliation.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI didn\u2019t conjure forgiveness.\u00a0 This was not something that I heard a command and went \u201cWell, I better start figuring out how to forgive.\u201d\u00a0 It was Philippians 2:13, \u201cGod works in you to will and do His good pleasure.\u201d\u00a0 He changed my heart.\u00a0 I actually was <em>hoping<\/em> to see reconciliation while, at the same time, wondering if I was being a proud, self- righteous person because, \u201c<em>I forgave you<\/em>.\u201d\u00a0 Not knowing how to do that\u2014and then still\u2014angry.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tEven now, when I think about it, my favorite line is, \u201cA memory doesn\u2019t know time.\u201d\u00a0 I think about it; and I still go, \u201cThat poor kid,\u201d\u2014like I remember <em>now<\/em> what I felt like 17 years ago, thinking, \u201cThat poor kid!\u201d\u00a0 Like, \u201cMan I wish I could have talked to you, man.\u00a0 You felt so stupid, and dirty, and ugh!\u2014like the stuff\u2014I sound all weird talking to my 17-years-ago self; but I just wanted to take care of myself, take care of that kid.\u00a0 I felt bad for him.\u00a0 I was angry.\u00a0 I think some of my anger went from being wrath to actually more appropriate anger\u2014like, \u201cThat\u2019s just not right.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat\u2019s the thing about our vengeance.\u00a0 This was <em>huge<\/em> for me\u2014that vengeance is not ours.\u00a0 Once we realize that vengeance is God\u2019s, it gets us off the hamster wheel of trying to get a pound of flesh and get that person to do some penance.\u00a0 Once we can kind of go, \u201cOkay, God.\u00a0 You\u2019re holy and righteous.\u00a0 You do vengeance.\u00a0 You do what You do.\u00a0 I\u2019m going to do what I\u2019m called to do.\u201d\u00a0 It freed me from not having to hold on to that burden and try it get my own.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 So, everybody\u2019s wondering.\u00a0 What did he say?\u00a0 What did he do?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Justin:<\/strong>\u00a0 He didn\u2019t have the best response.\u00a0 I was hoping for a lot more.\u00a0 I had it built up in my mind that this would be amazing.\u00a0 He didn\u2019t minimize it completely; but it was like, \u201cYes, I mean, that\u2019s what\u2014\u201d\u00a0 He did the, \u201cBoys will be boys.\u00a0 That is what they kind of do,\u201d\u2014and, \u201cI understand, and thank you for forgiving me.\u201d\u00a0 It didn\u2019t do some real wonderful, magical\u2014like, \u201cOh, we\u2019re buddies now.\u201d\u00a0 It was anticlimactic.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 But it did do something in your own heart, didn\u2019t it?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Justin:<\/strong>\u00a0 Oh yes!\u00a0 That was the gift\u2014the barb with the hook\u2014the bitterness\u2014that was letting the devastation and sin win.\u00a0 As long as I had that bitterness, it was destroying me.\u00a0 It was also creating anger, rage, control things that were influencing other relationships.\u00a0 I wasn\u2019t forgiving him for my own good; but God is wonderful, and it ended up being for my own good also.\u00a0 I wasn\u2019t even\u2014\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt\u2019s funny when you even asked the question.\u00a0 I thought, \u201cI didn\u2019t even really <em>care <\/em>what his response was.\u201d\u00a0 That was a freedom because, if I needed him to know it, I would have needed him to respond in an appropriate way or else he wasn\u2019t going to get my forgiveness.\u00a0 It was like \u201cNo, I forgive you man.\u00a0 You\u2019re a mess right now, and good luck.\u00a0 Go with it!\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 You may have just answered my last question here.\u00a0 Do you think you\u2019ll ever double back, just because of the way he didn\u2019t handle it as perhaps a new Christian?\u00a0 It did sound to me like he minimized it.\u00a0 Do you think you\u2019ll double back or are you going to consider this to be Romans 12?\u00a0 \u201cAs much as it\u2019s possible with you, be at peace with all men.\u201d\u00a0 You took your shot, and you\u2019re going to just let it be with him.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Justin:<\/strong>\u00a0 Right now I think I\u2019m going to let it be.\u00a0 That could change; but right now, it feels\u2014I think the response is (I love that line) \u201cas much as it is possible.\u201d\u00a0 I did what I needed to do.\u00a0 I\u2019m happy.\u00a0 I\u2019m content and settled with that conversation.\u00a0 I don\u2019t get rattled by it.\u00a0 It would have been <em>nice<\/em> if he would have said something differently, but it wasn\u2019t contingent on his response.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 I think that\u2019s a healthy approach, and I think there are some of our listeners who needed to hear that.\u00a0 God is just.\u00a0 He\u2019s also perfectly merciful, and full of grace, and forgiveness.\u00a0 So, if there are scores to be settled, God will settle them.\u00a0 It\u2019s not up to us to do that.\u00a0 Justin, I appreciate your transparency, your candor with us.\u00a0 I just appreciate your book.\u00a0 I think it\u2019s going to be a great resource for our listeners for a lot of years.\u00a0 Thanks for being on the broadcast.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Justin:<\/strong>\u00a0 Thank you so much.\u00a0 I really appreciate it\u2014the opportunity to say, \u201cGrace upon grace,\u201d loudly and clearly with both of you\u2014who, that\u2019s what you care about.\u00a0 You get it.\u00a0 You care about these listeners and the people who love them, knowing the devastation and disgrace they are feeling and just swirling around them.\u00a0 To be able to be a light of good news and freedom to the captives is a great privilege and joy.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>It is.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 You have done that this week on our program.\u00a0 But you\u2019ve also done it in the book that you\u2019ve written called <em>Rid of My Disgrace<\/em>, which we have in our <em>FamilyLife Today <\/em>Resource Center.\u00a0 I would encourage listeners, if this is a part of your past or if you know someone who was abused sexually as they were growing up, get a copy of this book.\u00a0 Either read it yourself, or pass it along to a friend.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tGo to FamilyLifeToday.com for more information about Justin Holcomb\u2019s book, <em>Rid of My Disgrace:<\/em><em>\u00a0 <\/em><em>Hope and Healing for Victims of Sexual Assault<\/em>.\u00a0 Again, our website is FamilyLifeToday.com.\u00a0 We have additional information available there, dealing with sexual abuse and sexual assault .\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tFind out more when you go online at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call toll-free 1-800-FLTODAY.\u00a0 That\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word \u201cTODAY.\u201d\u00a0 Get in touch with us, and we\u2019ll let you know how you can have any of the resources we have available sent to you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe really appreciate those of you who, after listening to a series like this, go online at FamilyLifeToday.com and share your thoughts with us.\u00a0 We have a transcript of each day\u2019s program available online for you to download or simply read back through. At the end of that transcript, people will often write in their thoughts about a particular program.\u00a0 We appreciate hearing from you.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe also appreciate those of you who, from time to time, help support the ministry with a donation.\u00a0 We are listener-supported.\u00a0 So, when you go online and make a donation or call 1-800-FLTODAY to make a donation, you\u2019re making sure that the production and syndication costs of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> can be sustained by the ministry.\u00a0 We do appreciate that financial support.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThis month, if you are able to help with a donation, we\u2019d love to send you, as a thank-you gift, a new book from Barbara Rainey designed to be read to your family as a family devotional.\u00a0 It\u2019s called <em>Growing Together in Truth<\/em>.\u00a0 In this book, Barbara talks about the importance of seeing God\u2019s Word as <em>absolute<\/em> truth. These are compelling stories for you to share with your family at a meal or during family devotions.\u00a0 The book is our gift to you when you make a donation this month.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tMake that donation online at FamilyLifeToday.com and simply write the word \u201cTRUTH\u201d in the key code box if you\u2019re interested in getting a copy of the devotional, or call 1-800-FLTODAY.\u00a0 Make a donation over the phone and ask about a copy of Barbara Rainey\u2019s devotional on truth.\u00a0 Again, we\u2019re happy to send it to you.\u00a0 We do appreciate your support of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe hope you have a great weekend and hope you and your family are able to worship together this weekend.\u00a0 We hope you can join us back on Monday when we\u2019re going to meet a man who received a blood transfusion when he was a teenager, actually a pre-teen.\u00a0 He became HIV-positive as a result of that blood transfusion.\u00a0 We\u2019ll talk about how he has lived a positive life all these years.\u00a0 I hope you can tune in for that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team.\u00a0 On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine.\u00a0 We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHelp for today.\u00a0 Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you.\u00a0 However, there is a cost to produce them for our website.\u00a0 If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright \u00a9 2011 FamilyLife.\u00a0 All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\t1\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>"],"_seopress_titles_title":[""],"_seopress_titles_desc":[""],"_seopress_robots_index":[""],"duration":["00:"],"show_notes":[""],"_thumbnail_id":["294104"],"filesize":["29.33M"],"filesize_raw":["30756617"],"_uag_css_file_name":["uag-css-302375.css"],"_uag_js_file_name":["uag-js-302375.js"],"_uag_page_assets":["a:9:{s:3:\"css\";s:82560:\".wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-top svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-top .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-bottom svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px 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abuse is at epidemic levels.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2011-10-07.pdf","transcript_content":"<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Is it possible for you to really forgive your attacker if you\u2019ve been sexually assaulted?\u00a0 Justin Holcomb says it\u2019s possible if you\u2019ve been a recipient of God\u2019s grace yourself.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Justin:<\/strong>\u00a0 This is going to take a miracle. Forgiveness is a miracle.\u00a0 We don\u2019t naturally forgive people who sin against us.\u00a0 We hate other people.\u00a0 We don\u2019t love God and we don\u2019t love our neighbor.\u00a0 That\u2019s the summary of the Law. When God forgives us of our cosmic sin, He gives us a new heart.\u00a0 So we actually do love God and we do love our neighbor.\u00a0 Then the miracle is that you would actually want to forgive and <em>hope<\/em> to see reconciliation.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Friday, October 7th.\u00a0 Our host is the president of FamilyLife\u00ae, Dennis Rainey, and I\u2019m Bob Lepine.\u00a0 We\u2019ll talk today about having the wisdom and the grace to forgive someone who has sexually assaulted you.\u00a0 Stay tuned.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\u00a0 Thanks for joining us.\u00a0 We are tackling a tough subject this week.\u00a0 I just want to encourage listeners\u2014again, because of the nature of the subject, you may want to use some discernment about who\u2019s listening to today\u2019s program.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br>But, Dennis, see if this makes sense.\u00a0 I was thinking about this.\u00a0 We have some organs in our body that are non-essential organs.\u00a0 If your gall bladder has to be removed; life can go on without a gall bladder.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 I no longer have an appendix.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 There you go.\u00a0 If your heart has problems, it\u2019s a different deal.\u00a0 You can\u2019t get along without a heart.\u00a0 As we talk about the issue of sexual assault or sexual damage, I was thinking that our sexuality is kind of like an essential organ in the soul.\u00a0 When there is damage done to a person\u2019s sexuality, that affects every part of their soul.\u00a0 If you don\u2019t address that damage, if you don\u2019t deal with the damage that\u2019s been done, you walk wounded.\u00a0 You walk emotionally-wounded for the rest of your life.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Dennis:<\/strong> This is overly simplified, but what\u2019s the first question we ask when a baby\u2019s born?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Is it a boy or a girl?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 What\u2019s its sex, right?\u00a0 From that point on, sexuality really is an identifying factor.\u00a0 In fact, it\u2019s a big deal today in our nation\u2014discussing this.\u00a0 Are there just two sexes or multiple sexes?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWell, I think what we\u2019re talking about here concerning sexual abuse is very important to understand; and we have a guest here with us, Justin Holcomb, who has spent a number of years dedicated to addressing the needs in people\u2019s lives.\u00a0 He\u2019s written a book, along with his wife Lindsey, called <em>Rid of My Disgrace<\/em>.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to welcome you back to the broadcast, Justin.\u00a0 I\u2019m sorry your wife\u2019s not here, though.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Justin:<\/strong>\u00a0 I wish she could be here, too.\u00a0 You both would really enjoy talking to her.\u00a0 She\u2019s charming and wonderful.\u00a0 She\u2019s much more the better half.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 She\u2019s trained as a counselor, as a therapist, as well, right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Justin:<\/strong>\u00a0 She worked as a sexual-assault crisis counselor so she was on the hotline at two o\u2019clock in the morning.\u00a0 She\u2019d get the calls.\u00a0 She would go with men and women to the hospital.\u00a0 She would go to the police with them\u2014advocacy.\u00a0 She also worked at a domestic violence shelter.\u00a0 Many women, who are abused in domestic violence situations, have also been sexually-assaulted.\u00a0 She also has a Masters in international public health, focusing on sexual violence towards women.\u00a0 So, she\u2019s amazing.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 You have your Masters in Theology.\u00a0 You\u2019re on the pastoral staff at Mars Hill Church in Seattle.\u00a0 Together, you guys have written a book called <em>Rid of My Disgrace<\/em>.\u00a0 You\u2019ve together counseled with hundreds of people who have been victimized with sexual abuse.\u00a0 It was a part of your own background and your own experience.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI\u2019m just curious?\u00a0 I made the statement that it feels like sexual abuse is really damage to an essential organ of the soul.\u00a0 Is that an overstatement?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Justin:<\/strong>\u00a0 No, not at all.\u00a0 That\u2019s how God made things.\u00a0 He\u2019s the One who said, \u201cThis is a gift between man and women.\u201d\u00a0 It\u2019s not the only picture of unity, but it\u2019s one of the pictures of unity and harmony in the way things are supposed to be.\u00a0 It\u2019s not a shock.\u00a0 If you look at the Bible, that with sin entering the world, that this would be one of the things that creates so much devastation.\u00a0 Sexual assault in Scripture is used as a symbol of how far and how bad sin has gotten.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 And we live in a culture that almost celebrates it.\u00a0 We\u2019ve turned it on its head; and I have to wonder if folks who are wrestling with depression today, or out-o- control anger today, or a sense of despair and worthlessness and shame\u2014a lot of those folks have never traced back those feelings to sexual assault that happened to them as a child or as a teenager.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Justin:<\/strong>\u00a0 Well, it\u2019s one out of five.\u00a0 If it\u2019s one out of four women and one out of six men, have or will be, that\u2019s at least that we know of.\u00a0 Those are conservative numbers.\u00a0 At least one out of five people that you know\u2014that we know\u2014have been victims or will be victims of sexual assault.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Okay.\u00a0 You were sexually abused when you were 10, 11, 12 years of age.\u00a0 I want to ask you about the anger, the rage\u2014that undoubtedly you felt after you took a step back.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Well, you talk about shame, and despair, and anger, and all of these things.\u00a0 Did you experience the full gamut of it?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Justin:<\/strong>\u00a0 I did.\u00a0 We talk about six specific issues; but I\u2019m going to come right back to the anger and rage.\u00a0 The six we looked at are denial and minimizing, identity, shame, guilt, anger, and despair.\u00a0 Those are the six from counselors who deal from this\u2014from all the research, and from\u2014antidotally\u2014people we\u2019ve talked to.\u00a0 Those are the six we realize were the real \u201cdoozies\u201d we wanted to go after.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI love that you asked the anger question because that was mine.\u00a0\u00a0 So, the anger and forgiveness chapter\u2014we put that one together.\u00a0 That was the one that was the most enjoyable for me to write.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 What did that look like for you as a teenage boy or as a new husband?\u00a0 I\u2019m just imagining how that anger seeped out in your\u2014or were you able to kind of \u201ckeep it toned-down\u201d?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Justin:<\/strong>\u00a0 It was toned-down for a while, but anger\u2019s like a hydraulic system.\u00a0 It\u2019s going to come out somewhere.\u00a0 In later twenties, thirties, I started realizing, \u201cMan, I kind of got furious.\u201d\u00a0 And then when he became a Christian, it made things <em>really<\/em> interesting because\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Your perpetrator became a Christian?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Justin:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\u00a0 So, I knew I was supposed to forgive him; but the anger!\u00a0 What was most helpful for me was Ephesians 4, because\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Now, wait.\u00a0 I want you to get to Ephesians 4; but I have to believe there\u2019s a listener right now who is going, \u201cTalk more about what you were feeling\u2014your rage.\u201d\u00a0 And it\u2019s not a matter of being voyeuristic into what happened.\u00a0 It\u2019s a matter of, \u201cHow controlling was it?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Justin:<\/strong>\u00a0 I wanted to hurt him.\u00a0 I wanted to mock him.\u00a0 I wanted to belittle him, and I wanted to physically hurt him.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 You wanted to publicly expose him?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Justin:<\/strong>\u00a0 No, because that would have required me looking like I was trying to get revenge or something.\u00a0 I didn\u2019t want to look small, trying to get revenge.\u00a0 So I was getting my own revenge in the ways that I could, as strategically as possible.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 So, back to the Bible\u2014back to Ephesians 4.\u00a0 Was it your forgiveness of him and going to him to forgive him that was your public statement and coming out of your own prison?\u00a0 Or did you do that with another person before you went to him?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Justin:<\/strong>\u00a0 It was another person.\u00a0 I had to actually work through the forgiveness with someone, talking to my wife and others about where I was before I could actually articulate that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 So others helped you\u2014?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Justin:<\/strong>\u00a0 Oh yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 --get out of the prison?\u00a0 That\u2019s important.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Justin:<\/strong>\u00a0 I wasn\u2019t even sure\u2014I didn\u2019t know that I was that angry.\u00a0 So, I needed other people to say, \u201cYou\u2019re really ticked off about this.\u201d\u00a0 I realized that was the case\u2014that I was <em>furious<\/em>!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 You\u2019re a pastor with a theology degree.\u00a0 But (a) you still had this going on inside; and (b) you still needed help from others.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Justin:<\/strong>\u00a0 Oh, yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 I just want folks to understand.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 That\u2019s important.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 We all need community. W e all need folks who are holding up the mirror and say, \u201cHuh?\u00a0 How does this look to you?\u201d\u00a0 And when your friends held up the mirror to you and you saw it, you had to address that what you were doing was hanging on to sin, weren\u2019t you?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Justin:<\/strong>\u00a0 And that\u2019s what communities do.\u00a0 They reflect the truth back to you, but then Christian communities also get to be agents of reconciliation and grace.\u00a0 So, the people who were saying it, they weren\u2019t saying it like, \u201cOh, you\u2019re not doing good managing your anger!\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 What a bad person you are!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Justin:<\/strong>\u00a0 It was, \u201cHey, we\u2019re going to show you the truth; but here we go.\u00a0 And you have been forgiven of a lot and out of that forgiveness will come\u2014\u201d\u00a0\u00a0 So, they were speaking wonderful, powerful grace to me.\u00a0 That\u2019s what motivated me.\u00a0 We went through Ephesians 4; and it said, \u201cBe angry; but in your anger, do not sin.\u201d\u00a0 That one line was huge for me.\u00a0 I had, \u201cAnger is sin\u201d\u2014that\u2019s over there.\u00a0 \u201cDon\u2019t be angry.\u201d\u00a0 Then I realized, \u201cWait a second, I\u2019m allowed to be angry!\u201d\u00a0 Not only am I allowed to be angry, God\u2019s angry at what happened to me.\u00a0 He\u2019s angry at sin and the affects of it.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, <em>my<\/em> response is to participate in <em>His<\/em> anger.\u00a0 He does anger perfectly.\u00a0 I do anger sinfully.\u00a0 So, \u201cBe angry; but in your anger, do not sin.\u201d\u00a0 Then, at the end of Ephesians 4, it says, \u201cForgive as Christ has forgiven you.\u201d\u00a0 Then I thought of the parable of the unforgiving servant.\u00a0 I thought, \u201cI\u2019ve committed cosmic treason against my Creator.\u201d\u00a0 If God can forgive me of cosmic treason, I wanted to be able to forgive him.\u00a0 Just the <em>desire<\/em> to want to forgive was <em>huge<\/em>\u2014where I thought\u2014the saying is, \u201cBitterness is drinking poison and hoping it will kill your enemy.\u201d\u00a0 I thought, \u201cThat\u2019s what\u2019s happening,\u201d is that, \u201cI\u2019m furious, and he doesn\u2019t even care.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 You\u2019re summarizing a process that took place over what period of time?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Justin:<\/strong>\u00a0 This was at <em>leas<\/em>t seven years ago.\u00a0 It was a while ago.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 And how long did it take you after you entered the process and admitted your anger, until you ultimately had the meeting with him and expressed forgiveness?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Justin:<\/strong>\u00a0 It took a few years.\u00a0 I wanted to actually say it and mean it. I didn\u2019t want to just say\u2014and, also, just practically, just distance.\u00a0 There wasn\u2019t an arena.\u00a0 There were other things going on in his life where it would have been selfish of me to say, \u201cHey, this needs to be real important,\u201d because he was going through some other things in his life.\u00a0 So, it took a while.\u00a0 I waited until we would be in the same city and not just, \u201cDo it.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Justin, I appreciate the integrity of that.\u00a0 You just kind of said it under your breath, \u201cI wanted the forgiveness to be real, to be authentic.\u201d\u00a0 I think sometimes we\u2019re so familiar within the Christian community with terms like grace, mercy, forgiveness; and these are terms that cost our Savior His life.\u00a0 We throw around, \u201cOh, I forgive you.\u00a0 You got my grace.\u00a0 You can\u2014Yes, it\u2019s okay.\u00a0 Keep on.\u201d\u00a0 I think it\u2019s disingenuous.\u00a0 I think it may, at points, mock a process that needs to take place in the soul, where the Holy Spirit truly works a work of grace.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI heard you say under your breath, also, you recognized what he was going through.\u00a0 The timing of you going, and confronting him, and forgiving him wouldn\u2019t have been healthy to him.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Justin:<\/strong>\u00a0 I wanted reconciliation, not just forgiveness.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 It\u2019s Galatians, Chapter 6, you know.\u00a0 It\u2019s going with an attitude of confronting about the sin, but going to restore.\u00a0 It sounds to me like you went to restore him, not merely just pass on forgiveness.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 So when you called him and said, \u201cHey, I\u2019d like to get together.\u201d\u00a0 What did he say?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Justin:<\/strong>\u00a0 He had no idea why.\u00a0 So, \u201cYes.\u00a0 Why not?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 When you said he had no idea why\u2014in the back of his mind is any\u2014he\u2019s remembering what he\u2019s done to you all those years ago?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Justin:<\/strong>\u00a0 He didn\u2019t seem to be anticipating it at all.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 He wasn\u2019t looking in the rear view mirror?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Justin:<\/strong>\u00a0 No, there was no indication that he was.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 When you sat down and you said, \u201cHere\u2019s what I want to talk to you about.\u201d\u00a0 I mean, just take us\u2014what was that experience like?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Justin:<\/strong>\u00a0 He minimized it a little bit.\u00a0 I expected him to.\u00a0 I wasn\u2019t there to try to rub his nose in it.\u00a0 I said, \u201cHey, this is\u2014I want to talk to you about this.\u00a0 This is what happened.\u00a0 Do you remember that?\u201d\u00a0 \u201cYes, yes.\u201d\u00a0 But he made it sound like, \u201cOh yes, that\u2019s what boys do\u201d type of thing.\u00a0 I was curious and exploring.\u201d\u00a0 I was like \u201cNo, that\u2019s not how I remembered it; but I\u2019ve been angry at you for this.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, I used it really as my confession of my sinful response to his sin.\u00a0 Whether or not he was going to repent, I wanted to repent to him for my anger.\u00a0 So I did.\u00a0 I said, \u201cI\u2019ve hated <em>you<\/em>.\u00a0 I\u2019ve wanted <em>bad <\/em>for you.\u00a0 I wanted you to get locked up.\u00a0 When I knew things weren\u2019t going well in other dimensions of your life, I was happy.\u00a0 I was actually in favor of bad things, <em>hoping<\/em> for bad things to happen to you.\u00a0 That\u2019s not right, and you believe in Jesus.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen he was not believing in Jesus, I rationalized that it was okay for me to hate him because, you know, \u201cHe\u2019s a reprobate, and so it\u2019s okay.\u201d\u00a0 I just had weird rationalizations for it.\u00a0 When he became a Christian, that just messed me up.\u00a0 I realized, \u201cOh, Jesus can forgive him.\u00a0 I would like to get in line with that.\u201d\u00a0 I didn\u2019t want to go there and go bestowing forgiveness.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat I was hoping for was something crazy like reconciling.\u00a0 I don\u2019t plan on being buddy, buddy with him; but I wanted to have a sense of, \u201cWe\u2019re both Christians.\u00a0 We\u2019ve both sinned.\u00a0 I\u2019ve sinned against you.\u00a0 You\u2019ve sinned against me.\u00a0 We\u2019re not going to try to figure out which one was worse and all that.\u00a0 We\u2019re both going to look at Christ now.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Justin, you\u2019re making this story sound very rational, cognitive, logical.\u00a0 I have to believe you were filled with all kinds of emotions, going to confront somebody who had done evil to you.\u00a0 What were you feeling?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Justin:<\/strong>\u00a0 I was wondering if I was doing the right thing.\u00a0 I didn\u2019t know if I should\u2014I didn\u2019t want to bring it up because I thought bringing up the past\u2014maybe I shouldn\u2019t do that because I\u2019m keeping a record of wrong.\u00a0 I\u2019m saying this as a seminary professor.\u00a0 I pastored, a PhD.\u00a0 So, this is really what\u2019s going on, \u201cOkay, am I\u2014\u201c?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Kind of checklist.\u00a0 The spiritual checklist deal.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Justin:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\u00a0 I don\u2019t trust myself with my own perspectives.\u00a0 So, I\u2019m asking a lot of people, \u201cOkay, I\u2019m supposed to do this, right?\u201d\u00a0 Again, going back to the community\u2014I had people saying, \u201cWe think you should.\u00a0 We think that would be <em>good<\/em>.\u201d\u00a0 No one said, \u201cYou\u2019ve got to forgive and forget.\u00a0 Come on, get this forgiveness -thing going,\u201d\u2014like it was some type of a hovering imperative command that I had better do.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt was actually like, \u201cYou\u2019ve been forgiven.\u00a0 You <em>get<\/em> to forgive.\u00a0 You <em>get<\/em> to actually <em>see<\/em> the grace you\u2019ve been given, going as an agent.\u00a0 You\u2019ve been reconciled with God, and now you\u2019re an agent of reconciliation.\u00a0 You get to participate in that.\u201d\u00a0 It was the wondering, \u201cIf I was keeping a record of wrong,\u201d to kind of the excitement and anticipation of, \u201cThis is going to take a miracle.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tForgiveness is a <em>miracle<\/em>. We don\u2019t naturally <em>forgive<\/em> people who sin against us.\u00a0 We hate other people.\u00a0 We don\u2019t love God and we don\u2019t love our neighbor.\u00a0 That\u2019s the summary of the Law.\u00a0 When God forgives us of our cosmic sin, He gives us a new heart so we actually do love God and we do love our neighbor.\u00a0 Then the <em>miracle<\/em> is that you would actually want to forgive and <em>hope<\/em> to see reconciliation.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI didn\u2019t conjure forgiveness.\u00a0 This was not something that I heard a command and went \u201cWell, I better start figuring out how to forgive.\u201d\u00a0 It was Philippians 2:13, \u201cGod works in you to will and do His good pleasure.\u201d\u00a0 He changed my heart.\u00a0 I actually was <em>hoping<\/em> to see reconciliation while, at the same time, wondering if I was being a proud, self- righteous person because, \u201c<em>I forgave you<\/em>.\u201d\u00a0 Not knowing how to do that\u2014and then still\u2014angry.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tEven now, when I think about it, my favorite line is, \u201cA memory doesn\u2019t know time.\u201d\u00a0 I think about it; and I still go, \u201cThat poor kid,\u201d\u2014like I remember <em>now<\/em> what I felt like 17 years ago, thinking, \u201cThat poor kid!\u201d\u00a0 Like, \u201cMan I wish I could have talked to you, man.\u00a0 You felt so stupid, and dirty, and ugh!\u2014like the stuff\u2014I sound all weird talking to my 17-years-ago self; but I just wanted to take care of myself, take care of that kid.\u00a0 I felt bad for him.\u00a0 I was angry.\u00a0 I think some of my anger went from being wrath to actually more appropriate anger\u2014like, \u201cThat\u2019s just not right.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat\u2019s the thing about our vengeance.\u00a0 This was <em>huge<\/em> for me\u2014that vengeance is not ours.\u00a0 Once we realize that vengeance is God\u2019s, it gets us off the hamster wheel of trying to get a pound of flesh and get that person to do some penance.\u00a0 Once we can kind of go, \u201cOkay, God.\u00a0 You\u2019re holy and righteous.\u00a0 You do vengeance.\u00a0 You do what You do.\u00a0 I\u2019m going to do what I\u2019m called to do.\u201d\u00a0 It freed me from not having to hold on to that burden and try it get my own.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 So, everybody\u2019s wondering.\u00a0 What did he say?\u00a0 What did he do?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Justin:<\/strong>\u00a0 He didn\u2019t have the best response.\u00a0 I was hoping for a lot more.\u00a0 I had it built up in my mind that this would be amazing.\u00a0 He didn\u2019t minimize it completely; but it was like, \u201cYes, I mean, that\u2019s what\u2014\u201d\u00a0 He did the, \u201cBoys will be boys.\u00a0 That is what they kind of do,\u201d\u2014and, \u201cI understand, and thank you for forgiving me.\u201d\u00a0 It didn\u2019t do some real wonderful, magical\u2014like, \u201cOh, we\u2019re buddies now.\u201d\u00a0 It was anticlimactic.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 But it did do something in your own heart, didn\u2019t it?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Justin:<\/strong>\u00a0 Oh yes!\u00a0 That was the gift\u2014the barb with the hook\u2014the bitterness\u2014that was letting the devastation and sin win.\u00a0 As long as I had that bitterness, it was destroying me.\u00a0 It was also creating anger, rage, control things that were influencing other relationships.\u00a0 I wasn\u2019t forgiving him for my own good; but God is wonderful, and it ended up being for my own good also.\u00a0 I wasn\u2019t even\u2014\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt\u2019s funny when you even asked the question.\u00a0 I thought, \u201cI didn\u2019t even really <em>care <\/em>what his response was.\u201d\u00a0 That was a freedom because, if I needed him to know it, I would have needed him to respond in an appropriate way or else he wasn\u2019t going to get my forgiveness.\u00a0 It was like \u201cNo, I forgive you man.\u00a0 You\u2019re a mess right now, and good luck.\u00a0 Go with it!\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 You may have just answered my last question here.\u00a0 Do you think you\u2019ll ever double back, just because of the way he didn\u2019t handle it as perhaps a new Christian?\u00a0 It did sound to me like he minimized it.\u00a0 Do you think you\u2019ll double back or are you going to consider this to be Romans 12?\u00a0 \u201cAs much as it\u2019s possible with you, be at peace with all men.\u201d\u00a0 You took your shot, and you\u2019re going to just let it be with him.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Justin:<\/strong>\u00a0 Right now I think I\u2019m going to let it be.\u00a0 That could change; but right now, it feels\u2014I think the response is (I love that line) \u201cas much as it is possible.\u201d\u00a0 I did what I needed to do.\u00a0 I\u2019m happy.\u00a0 I\u2019m content and settled with that conversation.\u00a0 I don\u2019t get rattled by it.\u00a0 It would have been <em>nice<\/em> if he would have said something differently, but it wasn\u2019t contingent on his response.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 I think that\u2019s a healthy approach, and I think there are some of our listeners who needed to hear that.\u00a0 God is just.\u00a0 He\u2019s also perfectly merciful, and full of grace, and forgiveness.\u00a0 So, if there are scores to be settled, God will settle them.\u00a0 It\u2019s not up to us to do that.\u00a0 Justin, I appreciate your transparency, your candor with us.\u00a0 I just appreciate your book.\u00a0 I think it\u2019s going to be a great resource for our listeners for a lot of years.\u00a0 Thanks for being on the broadcast.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Justin:<\/strong>\u00a0 Thank you so much.\u00a0 I really appreciate it\u2014the opportunity to say, \u201cGrace upon grace,\u201d loudly and clearly with both of you\u2014who, that\u2019s what you care about.\u00a0 You get it.\u00a0 You care about these listeners and the people who love them, knowing the devastation and disgrace they are feeling and just swirling around them.\u00a0 To be able to be a light of good news and freedom to the captives is a great privilege and joy.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>It is.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 You have done that this week on our program.\u00a0 But you\u2019ve also done it in the book that you\u2019ve written called <em>Rid of My Disgrace<\/em>, which we have in our <em>FamilyLife Today <\/em>Resource Center.\u00a0 I would encourage listeners, if this is a part of your past or if you know someone who was abused sexually as they were growing up, get a copy of this book.\u00a0 Either read it yourself, or pass it along to a friend.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tGo to FamilyLifeToday.com for more information about Justin Holcomb\u2019s book, <em>Rid of My Disgrace:<\/em><em>\u00a0 <\/em><em>Hope and Healing for Victims of Sexual Assault<\/em>.\u00a0 Again, our website is FamilyLifeToday.com.\u00a0 We have additional information available there, dealing with sexual abuse and sexual assault .\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tFind out more when you go online at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call toll-free 1-800-FLTODAY.\u00a0 That\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word \u201cTODAY.\u201d\u00a0 Get in touch with us, and we\u2019ll let you know how you can have any of the resources we have available sent to you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe really appreciate those of you who, after listening to a series like this, go online at FamilyLifeToday.com and share your thoughts with us.\u00a0 We have a transcript of each day\u2019s program available online for you to download or simply read back through. At the end of that transcript, people will often write in their thoughts about a particular program.\u00a0 We appreciate hearing from you.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe also appreciate those of you who, from time to time, help support the ministry with a donation.\u00a0 We are listener-supported.\u00a0 So, when you go online and make a donation or call 1-800-FLTODAY to make a donation, you\u2019re making sure that the production and syndication costs of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> can be sustained by the ministry.\u00a0 We do appreciate that financial support.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThis month, if you are able to help with a donation, we\u2019d love to send you, as a thank-you gift, a new book from Barbara Rainey designed to be read to your family as a family devotional.\u00a0 It\u2019s called <em>Growing Together in Truth<\/em>.\u00a0 In this book, Barbara talks about the importance of seeing God\u2019s Word as <em>absolute<\/em> truth. These are compelling stories for you to share with your family at a meal or during family devotions.\u00a0 The book is our gift to you when you make a donation this month.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tMake that donation online at FamilyLifeToday.com and simply write the word \u201cTRUTH\u201d in the key code box if you\u2019re interested in getting a copy of the devotional, or call 1-800-FLTODAY.\u00a0 Make a donation over the phone and ask about a copy of Barbara Rainey\u2019s devotional on truth.\u00a0 Again, we\u2019re happy to send it to you.\u00a0 We do appreciate your support of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe hope you have a great weekend and hope you and your family are able to worship together this weekend.\u00a0 We hope you can join us back on Monday when we\u2019re going to meet a man who received a blood transfusion when he was a teenager, actually a pre-teen.\u00a0 He became HIV-positive as a result of that blood transfusion.\u00a0 We\u2019ll talk about how he has lived a positive life all these years.\u00a0 I hope you can tune in for that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team.\u00a0 On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine.\u00a0 We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHelp for today.\u00a0 Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you.\u00a0 However, there is a cost to produce them for our website.\u00a0 If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright \u00a9 2011 FamilyLife.\u00a0 All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\t1\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>","theme_header_position":"","post_header_is_sticky":"","is_header_overlay":""},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/302375","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/91"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=302375"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/294104"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=302375"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=302375"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=302375"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=302375"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=302375"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=302375"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}