{"id":302310,"date":"2011-07-14T11:00:00","date_gmt":"2011-07-14T15:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/strategies-for-dealing-with-depression\/"},"modified":"2011-07-14T11:00:00","modified_gmt":"2011-07-14T15:00:00","slug":"strategies-for-dealing-with-depression","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/strategies-for-dealing-with-depression\/","title":{"rendered":"Strategies for Dealing With Depression"},"content":{"rendered":"","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>How should a person handle depression?<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2011-07-14.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:","filesize":"22.3M","filesize_raw":"23386118","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2846],"tags":[4008,4009,2607],"podcast_series":[7444],"cwp_profile":[9004,3229],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-302310","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-depression","tag-anxiety","tag-depression","tag-stress","podcast_series-depression-a-stubborn-darkness","cwp_profile-ed-welch","cwp_profile-leslie-vernick","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/302310\/strategies-for-dealing-with-depression","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/302310\/strategies-for-dealing-with-depression","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"F5mylqq5ro\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/strategies-for-dealing-with-depression\/\">Strategies for Dealing With Depression<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/strategies-for-dealing-with-depression\/embed\/#?secret=F5mylqq5ro\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Strategies for Dealing With Depression&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"F5mylqq5ro\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2011-07-14.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2011-07-14.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 The experience of depression can take people by surprise.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Woman #1:<\/strong>\u00a0 I have four children; and after my third child was born, I was just a wreck.\u00a0 That's really not normal for me.\u00a0 I was snapping at my husband and\u2026\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Woman #2:<\/strong>\u00a0It was just one thing after another\u2014the billing, the schooling, and the children.\u00a0 I just literally lost it.\u00a0 The rug just got pulled out from under me.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Woman #3:<\/strong>\u00a0I think, in my family, you know, it's probably 50-50.\u00a0 Half of us deal a little bit more with depression.\u00a0 Who knows why?\u00a0 That's just the way we're wired.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Thursday, July 14th.\u00a0 Our host is the President of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey; and I'm Bob Lepine.\u00a0 Is there hope for those who find themselves struggling with depression, trapped in \"a stubborn darkness\u201d?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\u00a0 Thanks for joining us.\u00a0 We've been talking this week about depression; and I can imagine there may have been some listeners who said, \"I'm too depressed to listen.\"\u00a0 I mean, I'm not trying to trivialize it; but I can imagine there are some folks who said, \"I just don't want to listen to a program about depression because I'm too far down in the tunnel.\"\u00a0 You really do wonder, \u201cIs there hope for folks in that kind of a situation?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 There is hope, and I feel like our guests on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> have all this week given practical biblical hope and help for struggling with one of the more mysterious emotional challenges that a human being ever faces.\u00a0 Dr. Ed Welch and Leslie Vernick join us again on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tEd, Leslie, thanks so much for writing on this subject, for your ministry through counseling and education.\u00a0 I just appreciate you both, and I also appreciate you pointing us back to God and the Scripture through both of the books that you two have written.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Thanks.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Thanks.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Ed, one of the things you talk about in your book are strategies and, Leslie, you have these in your book as well, in terms of how you go about dealing with depression from a practical standpoint.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 You've both seen people come out of the tunnel, haven't you?\u00a0 You've both seen people who were down there for a long time; and you thought, \"Boy, this may be the rest of their life.\"\u00a0 Something happens and the light comes on; and the depression dissipates, right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong>\u00a0 Well, that's right.\u00a0 It is not just sometimes always a light comes on, but any kind of healing takes time.\u00a0 If someone has had major surgery, for example, or anything that's been debilitating\u2014hit by a car\u2014you don't just jump out of bed and start running a marathon.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI call my exercise as first steps because sometimes a first step is all you can take.\u00a0 You have no energy.\u00a0 You feel like you're at the bottom of the barrel or at the end of the tunnel, or it's too dark; and you're afraid to start running.\u00a0 All you have is one step.\u00a0 As you take that step, you start to build some muscles that you can take the next step and the next step.\u00a0 It's very important that a woman or a man, who is depressed, not put a burden on themselves thinking that they've got to read a whole chapter of Scripture or they've got to do something really, really hard.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAll they need to do is take the first step.\u00a0 That begins the process as long as they can begin to take the next step after that.\u00a0 When they fall down, to get up and take the next step.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Using your imagery of the first step, stepping up and away from depression, are you saying that someone who has a propensity towards depression can truly step up and out of it and no longer struggle with it for the rest of their lives?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong>\u00a0 No, no.\u00a0 I'm not saying that someone will never struggle with depression.\u00a0 I think that there are people who are vulnerable to depression\u2014I being one of them.\u00a0 There are some steps that you take, and then you learn depression- prevention steps in your life just like you would take steps to prevent heart disease or cancer.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat doesn't mean you're not going to get it, but you certainly can build healthier lifestyle patterns in your life; for example, women learning to manage stress.\u00a0 It is so important when we have resources in our life.\u00a0 Stress is one of the major factors that often tumbles someone into depression\u2014to learn to manage stress, both external stress\u2014the environmental stress around you\u2014but also the internal stress.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tFor women, it is all these, \u201cI should be this,\u201d and, \u201cEveryone should be happy with me all the time, and I can never make a mistake.\u201d\u00a0 This internal pressure that we put on ourselves that makes us more vulnerable to getting depressed when someone is upset with us or angry with us and we don\u2019t know how to handle that conflict\u2014those interpersonal problems.\u00a0 It is really important that women learn, and men, how to handle stress\u2014how to manage their resources.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Your exercise regiment, your time in the Word, and all of those disciples are a part of your depression-management system to keep you from falling back into the tunnel?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>The purpose, I would say, \u201cMy purpose is to know God and glorify Him.\u201d\u00a0 I wouldn\u2019t do it as a means to an end but certainly the results of that because when you are depressed, it is really hard to implement some of those strategies.\u00a0 You start to do them when you are not so depressed so that when you start to head toward that, you can pull yourself back sooner.\u00a0 That is, I think, is a really important thing to learn in the midst of depression\u2014how to recognize you are heading toward the cliff and pull yourself back.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong>\u00a0 It seems like one of the questions we're wrestling with is, \u201cWhat can we guarantee?\u00a0 From our knowledge of Scripture, what can we guarantee to the person who is struggling with depression?\u00a0 Can we guarantee that following the biblical course will mean they will never struggle with depression again?\u201d\u00a0 We can't say that.\u00a0 That would be like saying, \"If you follow a biblical course, you'll never encounter suffering once again in your life.\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThere are some things, I think, we can hold out almost as guarantees in the Scripture.\u00a0 For example, the worst that we can guarantee is something like a Christian funeral.\u00a0 A Christian funeral has great grief; but, at the same time, there is this joy.\u00a0 There is this knowledge that death has been conquered.\u00a0 Christians are very, very weird people, where they are able to have simultaneous emotions.\u00a0 I think that's the worst that we can offer a person who struggles with depression.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 We can offer them joy, a sense of victory, even though they may never \"slay the beast\"\u2014the depression beast that pulls them back down\u2014but they can, in a sense, have victory in the midst of that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong>\u00a0 Have hope in the midst of it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes, a sense of hope, which is really the death knoll of depression\u2014a hopelessness.\u00a0 Once you have no hope, then your spirit is about ready to give up; but someone who still has hope in the midst of depression is someone like Ed\u2019s dad, who can continue to persevere because you know that there is a purpose in your depression.\u00a0 Therefore, your suffering isn\u2019t meaningless.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt is that meaningless suffering that just does us in.\u00a0 When we know that our suffering is for a purpose, either for our own good or for the glory of God\u2014God may use my suffering to enable someone else.\u00a0 My depression may serve to help me be a better counselor, and I can see that now.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Is it more likely that someone who is in the tunnel of depression is going to have a slow journey out rather than wake up one morning, the birds are singing, and the sky is blue; and they go, \"Well, the cloud lifted; and I'm okay.\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong>\u00a0 Well, you know, Jesus healed people in different ways.\u00a0 For some people, it was very instantaneous.\u00a0 He said, \"Get up and walk;\" and they got up and walked.\u00a0 There have been people who I've talked to who have said, \"You know, I woke up this morning and that dark cloud was gone; and praise God.\"\u00a0 Who knows why it came, and who knows why it left.\u00a0 It was there, and now it's not; but for most people, I find it's a more gradual healing.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Whether it is steps or whether it is strategies, both of you write about this.\u00a0 I'd like to explore something you talk about in both of your books.\u00a0 Ed, you have\u2014I'm looking here\u2014you have 20 practical strategies that really appeal to me, as a man.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>As a fixer.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Who wants to fix it.\u00a0 Now, you know, we're laughing about it, and I know we're not just going to fix it; but there really are some good practical helps here.\u00a0 Again, Leslie, you have steps.\u00a0 I want both of you to just share some practical strategies and steps.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong>\u00a0 Many of these strategies come from people who have been depressed.\u00a0 They have been used by folks.\u00a0 Here is one, \"Be suspicious of how you feel.\u00a0 Be suspicious of how you feel.\u201d\u00a0 In other words, \"I feel like nobody loves me.\u00a0 I feel like God doesn't love me.\"\u00a0 Feelings, when they are as pronounced as they are in depression, they demand our allegiance.\u00a0 They demand some sort of interpretive power so \"I feel like no one loves me,\" becomes, \"No one loves me.\"\u00a0 There is a huge difference between the two.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNo. 1, \u201cHow can we be suspicious of how we're feeling?\u201d\u00a0 Here is something, again, that demands great faith.\u00a0 How can we bring a humility to the process because depression is saying, \"There is no hope.\u00a0 There is no purpose.\u00a0 There is no joy\"?\u00a0 Essentially, what we're doing is, we're asking the person to have a protest against that and to say, \"No, there is hope.\u00a0 There is purpose.\u00a0 There is joy.\"\u00a0\u00a0 That protest demands immense humility.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>One of the things, dovetailing on Ed's strategy, is I talk about our heart being comprised of our feelings, which is important to recognize, but also the thought\/feeling connection because, for example, the psalmist says in \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tPsalm 55:2, \"My thoughts trouble me, and I am distraught.\"\u00a0 Our thoughts affect our feelings.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen a person feels like they're abandoned, it's because they're thinking that they have been abandoned.\u00a0 It is very important for us to understand that just because we think something is true, it doesn't necessarily make it true.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tGod's Word is a plumb line for truth.\u00a0 Even the Israelites felt abandoned by God in Isaiah 49 because they were telling themselves that God abandoned them.\u00a0 God took pains in that passage of Scripture to say, \"Though you think this, it's not true.\"\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt is very important for us to be able to understand that our heart can deceive us in our thoughts and our feelings.\u00a0 Also, our heart comprises of our will.\u00a0 That is where the psalmist says, \"As for me, I will.\"\u00a0 Partly learning to battle depression is an exercise in strengthening our will so that we can begin to say, \"As for me, I will continue to have hope in God.\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 I want to make sure our listeners understand.\u00a0 We are not suggesting that you read through a verse like that, and voila!\u00a0 Everything is fixed.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong>\u00a0\u00a0 Here's the pill.\u00a0 Yes, that would be great.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 I'm thinking, what is it, Psalm 46 where the psalmist says, \"Why so downcast, O my soul?\"\u00a0 Right?\u00a0 Just put your hope in God.\u00a0 Well, there it is.\u00a0 There's the verse on depression.\u00a0 Your soul is downcast; put your hope in God; problem cured.\u00a0 Next?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWould to God that it was that easy, right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong>\u00a0 The question of, \u201cHow do I do that in my life situation?\u201d is really the finesse of coming alongside of someone and applying the right medicine to the right problem.\u00a0 You know, there are lots of good medicines out there; but if it's not applied to the right diagnosis and the right illness, it doesn't work.\u00a0 We can do something that's not effective\u2014doesn\u2019t make it bad medicine; it just makes it not applicable.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis<\/strong>:\u00a0 Right.\u00a0 What we're talking about here, really, is applicable to every follower of Christ.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 You've got to believe the truth about who God is and what His character is like and not believe a lie that God's mean-spirited or He's evil.\u00a0 You have to believe the truth about Him, about yourself, and about life.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong>\u00a0 People have come into my counseling, \"You're so practical.\u00a0 You're so practical.\"\u00a0 I never liked that word.\u00a0 I always thought, \"I want to be inspirational.\"\u00a0 I am not inspirational; I'm practical.\u00a0 I am always the \u201chow-to person.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHow do you actually apply this?\u00a0 How do you actually help someone have hope in God?\u00a0 If God says, \"Have hope in me,\" well, then, how do you actually get that hope? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think it is really important that we take a piece of Scripture that God is telling us about and meditate on it, chew on it, and say, \"Okay, God, if this is what you're saying to me, how does this apply to my life?\u00a0 How does this apply to my feelings?\u00a0 How does this apply to my thoughts?\u00a0 How do I take this thought captive to the obedience of Christ?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen I don't, what am I supposed to do with that?\u00a0 How do I work this into my relationships?\"\u00a0 We don't just take this truth and put it on our forehead like a band-aid.\u00a0 We have to swallow it deep in our soul and make it nourish our souls.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong>\u00a0 This is where we go back to depression being a journey that you shouldn't take by yourself because what Leslie is talking about seems utterly impossible for a lot of depressed people.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong>\u00a0 That's right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>So some earlier steps would be, for example, most depressed people have some idea that there is hope in Scripture.\u00a0 They have some idea that this is truly the Living Word of God.\u00a0 It's not simply a book.\u00a0 It's the way the Spirit speaks life into us.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThey are willing, at least, to look, which might mean, \"I will read Scripture to a depressed person.\"\u00a0 I will say, \"Here are some things I found edifying.\u00a0 I don't know if you will.\u00a0 Stop me; raise your hand if there is anything that I say that could seem like God's Word spoken to you.\"\u00a0 Then, when we find that passage of Scripture, then to do exactly what Leslie said, \"Now let's stay here.\u00a0 Let's pray about this.\u00a0 Let's apply it together.\u00a0 Let's consider 25 applications of it.\u00a0 How can this truly be ours?\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>How can you walk this out tomorrow, today, this afternoon when you go home?\u00a0 I love the passage when Jesus was trying to comfort Martha after Lazarus had died.\u00a0 He was speaking to her.\u00a0 I could just picture her, her eyes glazing over, sort of saying, \"Jesus, yes, I heard this before.\" He stops in the middle and He says, \"Martha, do you believe me?\"\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOftentimes, I ask people, \"When you're reading the Scriptures, to stop themselves and say, you know, \u2018Do I really believe you, Lord?\u00a0 Do I really believe what you're saying?\u2019\u00a0 If I don't, again, be honest and, \u2018Help my unbelief.\u00a0 I don't really believe you're good, I don't really believe you love me, I don't really believe that you have a purpose in all this depression.\u2019\"\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTalk it out with God, and let God talk to you.\u00a0 That is a very important relational connection that we begin to build, even in the midst of our depression, with God.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong>\u00a0 The shorthand for this, Leslie, would be to recognize that Scripture is not simply a group of words; but it is personal communication.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong>\u00a0 That' right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong>\u00a0 I think you mentioned before that it is the wonder of the Christian life\u2014there is a certain give and take.\u00a0 God speaks, and we respond.\u00a0 How can a depressed person respond?\u00a0 The response might be as simple as saying, \"Amen.\u00a0 I believe this helped my unbelief.\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong>\u00a0 Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 I want you both to comment on this one that, Ed, you have in your book.\u00a0 \"Keep a sharp eye out for grumbling and complaining.\u00a0 Like gossip, these sins are acceptable in our culture so we don't see their ugly roots.\u00a0 What does the grumbling or complaining really say?\"\u00a0 Now, what does that have to do with depression?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong>\u00a0 Okay.\u00a0 Let me start with that by suggesting that anytime we see sin in our life, it is a really, really good thing.\u00a0 That is what I'm assuming.\u00a0 I'm assuming that as the Book of John says, \"When the Spirit comes, he is going to convict us of sin.\"\u00a0 If we see sin, we say God is on the move; and this is a wonderful expression of love that God is giving us.\u00a0 To be on the lookout for sin is just the normal Christian life; and it's an excellent, excellent process.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 I have to stop you just as you say\u2026\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>That doesn't sound excellent to you, Bob?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 It does.\u00a0 I was just with a friend who is going through a season of time where God has been doing kind of one of these revealing points.\u00a0 My friend was saying, \"I'm seeing the reality of the blackness of my own sin.\"\u00a0 We did talk, rejoicing at what a great thing this was for God to do, the kindness of God to show you your sin.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI actually pulled back and thought, \"I wonder what I'm not seeing.\u00a0 I wonder where I'm...\"\u00a0 There was part of me going, \"I probably need to, but I really am not sure I want to.\"\u00a0\u00a0 You know?\u00a0 It is that tension between, \"Lord, show me.\u00a0 Well, no.\u00a0 Well, yes.\u00a0 Well, no,\"\u00a0\u00a0 You know?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong>\u00a0 There is this fear of seeing our sin.\u00a0 There is pride that we really don't want to see that we look uglier than we thought we were, but it is likening it to looking in the mirror.\u00a0 I mean, all of us look in the mirror every morning.\u00a0 We see ourselves, and most of us admit that we need some work before we come out to the door.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat is sort of the same thing when the Scripture shows us our sin, or God shows us through His spirit our sin.\u00a0 It is like looking in the mirror.\u00a0 Then we have decide, \"Well, thank you, God, you showed me that my hair was sticking up.\u00a0 Thank you that you showed me that I've got dirt smudged all over my face, so then I can take care of this and fix this.\u00a0 It's a kindness to me that you are helping me to become a better version of myself than allowing me to continue being deceived that I\u2019m fine when I'm really not.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Okay.\u00a0 Well, back to the grumbling and complaining\u2014so we see our sin.\u00a0 How does that affect depression?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong>\u00a0 I can certainly speak personally.\u00a0 When I find myself leaning in a depressive direction, what happens?\u00a0 I get negative.\u00a0 Nothing is good.\u00a0 Everything is colored with pessimism, and it seems right to me because we live in a fallen world.\u00a0 Things don't always go very well.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen I move to a place like Numbers Chapter 14, and here people are doing things that just seem very ordinary.\u00a0 They are complaining because they are in the wilderness.\u00a0 The wilderness is a wretched place.\u00a0 That is where every depressed person, by the way, finds themselves.\u00a0 They are in the wilderness.\u00a0 The wilderness is a place that is barren and destitute, but it is also a place where you find God.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWell, instinctive to the human heart, we are going to grumble and complain.\u00a0 If you listen, sometimes to your own depression, as you overhear it, oftentimes you will hear that there is a deep grumbling and complaining.\u00a0 \u201cGod is not good.\u00a0 This world is not good.\u00a0 He is not in control.\u00a0 There is no hope in this world.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDepressed people are just like everybody else.\u00a0 We all grumble and complain.\u00a0 When you listen to depression, try to hear some of the logic of it.\u00a0 Sometimes it sounds just like Numbers 14\u2014the children of Israel in the wilderness.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong>\u00a0 But the real important thing for a person, who is depressed, when they become aware of that, is not to beat themselves up, \"Oh, what's wrong with me that I'm just a horrible sinner?\"; but to say, \"You know, I can see that God is using this awareness to help me to change to become a stronger person, to become a holier person, to be able to confess the sins.\"\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSay, \"God, I don't want to be this grumbler and complainer.\u00a0 I can see where this drags my spirit down; and Satan gets a foothold into my life when I begin to doubt your goodness and your character\u2014that you gypped me out of something good,\" which is what the Israelites were doing, \"God, you've gypped me.\u00a0 I belong in Egypt!\u00a0 I like those leeks and onions.\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\u00a0 It seems, to me, that one of the other emotions closely attached to depression is anger.\u00a0 When people have resentment in their hearts toward another person, can't forgiveness be one of the key strategies in moving and stepping out of depression\u2014forgiving another person?\u00a0 I know of a person right now who is trapped in this tunnel of depression.\u00a0 It seems like this person needs to begin by forgiving their spouse.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong>\u00a0 I have a whole chapter in my book about when people have hurt us and, \u201cHow does that affect us?\u201d and, \u201cHow does that cause us to be more vulnerable to getting depressed?\u201d\u00a0 Forgiveness, certainly, is an important part.\u00a0 We may feel like this person doesn't deserve forgiveness, and they may not; but as long as we stand and judge, then we stay in bondage.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong>\u00a0 What we're doing is:\u00a0 We're trying to listen just a little bit more carefully to depression.\u00a0 What is it saying\u2014anything in particular?\u00a0 Sometimes we can't understand what it's saying; but there are times when, Dennis, as you are pointing out, it does move us in that anger spectrum, grumbling being sort of low-level anger; complaining being low-level anger. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, what does anger say?\u00a0 Anger says, \"I want something, and I didn't get it.\u00a0 I want something, and I didn't get it.\"\u00a0 You can see how self-pity is a neighbor to that because anger is saying it loudly, \"I want something, and I didn't get it!\"\u00a0 Self-pity is saying (softly), \"I want something, I didn't get it, and I'll never get it.\"\u00a0 Both of them have that anger component.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAgain, it\u2019s a delightful opportunity to search our hearts.\u00a0 Leslie is making a very important point here:\u00a0 Here is the Law, the absolute law.\u00a0 The absolute law is:\u00a0\u00a0 Christ gets the last word.\u00a0 The last word is a word of hope and a word of beauty.\u00a0 The last word is a word that says, \"Yes, you've been faithless in your grumbling, and complaining, and your anger; but I am faithful.\u00a0 The cross assures you of my faithfulness.\"\u00a0 The last word has to be a Gospel word, which is a word of hope and encouragement.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 I think both of you are familiar with C.J. Mahaney's little book, <em>The Cross-Centered Life<\/em>.\u00a0 In that book, one of the things he talks about is the need that all of us have to do less listening to ourselves and more talking to ourselves.\u00a0 We need to hear less what we are saying and, instead, start instructing our soul on what's true.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf we can somehow get out from behind, \"Why do I feel this way and what's going on?\" and just have more of an other-centered, outward-focused, self-sacrificial life, that fulfills what the Gospel calls us to, that is going to do a lot to break up some of the fog that we're walking around in.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 And, Bob, what happens in that situation is a person who is depressed ends up feeding their soul the same stuff, the same anger, the same lack of forgiveness, the same resentment, and all the way down.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tEd and Leslie, I really want to thank you for being honest and allowing us to peer into your journey as individual followers of Christ.\u00a0 We've been talking about how depression is a part of the suffering that God can take us through as an individual believer.\u00a0 We've talked about how joy is possible if you believe the truth about who God is and what He says about you.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tFinally, we have also talked about in the tunnel, in the darkest\u2014what seems like the most hopeless situation\u2014God is there.\u00a0 He supplies other people to come alongside us in the midst of that dark tunnel to help us through and to, hopefully, help us step out of it.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI just appreciate both of you, your counseling ministry.\u00a0 I think, most of all, not just because you have a compassionate heart and a love for God and for people but that you're anchoring your wisdom and your advice back in the truth of God's Word.\u00a0 I just appreciate both of you, and hope you'll come back and join us again here on <em>FamilyLife Today.<\/em>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong>\u00a0 We\u2019d love to.\u00a0 Thank you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>That's kind of you.\u00a0 Thank you, Dennis.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 We hope this has been helpful for everybody listening, not just for those who are wrestling with depression, but for all of us who know people who are wrestling with depression.\u00a0 This conversation, we hope, has helped people know how we can love those people well, how we can walk the path with them, and support them in the midst of what they're going through.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI hope listeners will get copies of your books.\u00a0 Ed has written a book called \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>Depression:<\/em><em>\u00a0 <\/em><em>A Stubborn Darkness, Light for the Path<\/em>.\u00a0 Leslie has written a book called <em>Defeating Depression<\/em>.\u00a0 We have both of the books in our FamilyLife TodayResource Center.\u00a0 Go online at FamilyLifeToday.com for more information about how to get a copy of either or both of these books.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAgain, our website:\u00a0 FamilyLifeToday.com or call toll-free 1-800-FLTODAY\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word TODAY.\u00a0 Ask about the books on depression.\u00a0 Somebody can answer any questions you have about the books or make arrangements to have them sent to you.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThis week, we are also making available a free 64-page booklet by our friend, Randy Alcorn, that addresses the subject, \u201cIf God Is Good, Why Do We Hurt?\u201d\u00a0 It is not just about the issue of depression that we have been talking about this week\u2014it\u2019s about all kinds of issues\u2014all kinds of pain and suffering that goes on in our lives.\u00a0 It examines God\u2019s goodness in the midst of those kinds of human realities.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAgain, the booklet is a free gift that we would love to send to you this week.\u00a0 If you are a new listener to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, we would love to get acquainted.\u00a0 This is a way we can do that.\u00a0 You can go to FamilyLifeToday.com for more information about how to get a copy of the free booklet from Randy Alcorn, or call 1-800-FLTODAY.\u00a0 We will make arrangements to send it out to you.\u00a0 We are glad to have you listening, and we appreciate your support of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe want to encourage you to be back with us tomorrow when we are going to talk to a husband who walked on a journey with his wife through the pathway of darkness.\u00a0 It is an interesting story because his wife is somewhat well-known as a comedienne.\u00a0 David Pierce joins us tomorrow.\u00a0 We will hear his story.\u00a0 I hope you can be with us.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team.\u00a0 On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine.\u00a0 We will see you back tomorrow for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHelp for today.\u00a0 Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you.\u00a0 However, there is a cost to produce them for our website.\u00a0 If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright \u00a9 2011 FamilyLife.\u00a0 All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\n\t\t\t<\/p>"],"_seopress_titles_title":[""],"_seopress_titles_desc":[""],"_seopress_robots_index":[""],"duration":["00:"],"show_notes":[""],"_thumbnail_id":["294104"],"filesize":["22.3M"],"filesize_raw":["23386118"],"_uag_css_file_name":["uag-css-302310.css"],"_uag_js_file_name":["uag-js-302310.js"],"_uag_page_assets":["a:9:{s:3:\"css\";s:82560:\".wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-top svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-top .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-bottom svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-bottom .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: 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should a person handle depression?","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2011-07-14.pdf","transcript_content":"<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 The experience of depression can take people by surprise.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Woman #1:<\/strong>\u00a0 I have four children; and after my third child was born, I was just a wreck.\u00a0 That's really not normal for me.\u00a0 I was snapping at my husband and\u2026\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Woman #2:<\/strong>\u00a0It was just one thing after another\u2014the billing, the schooling, and the children.\u00a0 I just literally lost it.\u00a0 The rug just got pulled out from under me.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Woman #3:<\/strong>\u00a0I think, in my family, you know, it's probably 50-50.\u00a0 Half of us deal a little bit more with depression.\u00a0 Who knows why?\u00a0 That's just the way we're wired.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Thursday, July 14th.\u00a0 Our host is the President of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey; and I'm Bob Lepine.\u00a0 Is there hope for those who find themselves struggling with depression, trapped in \"a stubborn darkness\u201d?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\u00a0 Thanks for joining us.\u00a0 We've been talking this week about depression; and I can imagine there may have been some listeners who said, \"I'm too depressed to listen.\"\u00a0 I mean, I'm not trying to trivialize it; but I can imagine there are some folks who said, \"I just don't want to listen to a program about depression because I'm too far down in the tunnel.\"\u00a0 You really do wonder, \u201cIs there hope for folks in that kind of a situation?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 There is hope, and I feel like our guests on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> have all this week given practical biblical hope and help for struggling with one of the more mysterious emotional challenges that a human being ever faces.\u00a0 Dr. Ed Welch and Leslie Vernick join us again on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tEd, Leslie, thanks so much for writing on this subject, for your ministry through counseling and education.\u00a0 I just appreciate you both, and I also appreciate you pointing us back to God and the Scripture through both of the books that you two have written.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Thanks.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Thanks.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Ed, one of the things you talk about in your book are strategies and, Leslie, you have these in your book as well, in terms of how you go about dealing with depression from a practical standpoint.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 You've both seen people come out of the tunnel, haven't you?\u00a0 You've both seen people who were down there for a long time; and you thought, \"Boy, this may be the rest of their life.\"\u00a0 Something happens and the light comes on; and the depression dissipates, right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong>\u00a0 Well, that's right.\u00a0 It is not just sometimes always a light comes on, but any kind of healing takes time.\u00a0 If someone has had major surgery, for example, or anything that's been debilitating\u2014hit by a car\u2014you don't just jump out of bed and start running a marathon.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI call my exercise as first steps because sometimes a first step is all you can take.\u00a0 You have no energy.\u00a0 You feel like you're at the bottom of the barrel or at the end of the tunnel, or it's too dark; and you're afraid to start running.\u00a0 All you have is one step.\u00a0 As you take that step, you start to build some muscles that you can take the next step and the next step.\u00a0 It's very important that a woman or a man, who is depressed, not put a burden on themselves thinking that they've got to read a whole chapter of Scripture or they've got to do something really, really hard.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAll they need to do is take the first step.\u00a0 That begins the process as long as they can begin to take the next step after that.\u00a0 When they fall down, to get up and take the next step.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Using your imagery of the first step, stepping up and away from depression, are you saying that someone who has a propensity towards depression can truly step up and out of it and no longer struggle with it for the rest of their lives?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong>\u00a0 No, no.\u00a0 I'm not saying that someone will never struggle with depression.\u00a0 I think that there are people who are vulnerable to depression\u2014I being one of them.\u00a0 There are some steps that you take, and then you learn depression- prevention steps in your life just like you would take steps to prevent heart disease or cancer.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat doesn't mean you're not going to get it, but you certainly can build healthier lifestyle patterns in your life; for example, women learning to manage stress.\u00a0 It is so important when we have resources in our life.\u00a0 Stress is one of the major factors that often tumbles someone into depression\u2014to learn to manage stress, both external stress\u2014the environmental stress around you\u2014but also the internal stress.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tFor women, it is all these, \u201cI should be this,\u201d and, \u201cEveryone should be happy with me all the time, and I can never make a mistake.\u201d\u00a0 This internal pressure that we put on ourselves that makes us more vulnerable to getting depressed when someone is upset with us or angry with us and we don\u2019t know how to handle that conflict\u2014those interpersonal problems.\u00a0 It is really important that women learn, and men, how to handle stress\u2014how to manage their resources.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Your exercise regiment, your time in the Word, and all of those disciples are a part of your depression-management system to keep you from falling back into the tunnel?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>The purpose, I would say, \u201cMy purpose is to know God and glorify Him.\u201d\u00a0 I wouldn\u2019t do it as a means to an end but certainly the results of that because when you are depressed, it is really hard to implement some of those strategies.\u00a0 You start to do them when you are not so depressed so that when you start to head toward that, you can pull yourself back sooner.\u00a0 That is, I think, is a really important thing to learn in the midst of depression\u2014how to recognize you are heading toward the cliff and pull yourself back.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong>\u00a0 It seems like one of the questions we're wrestling with is, \u201cWhat can we guarantee?\u00a0 From our knowledge of Scripture, what can we guarantee to the person who is struggling with depression?\u00a0 Can we guarantee that following the biblical course will mean they will never struggle with depression again?\u201d\u00a0 We can't say that.\u00a0 That would be like saying, \"If you follow a biblical course, you'll never encounter suffering once again in your life.\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThere are some things, I think, we can hold out almost as guarantees in the Scripture.\u00a0 For example, the worst that we can guarantee is something like a Christian funeral.\u00a0 A Christian funeral has great grief; but, at the same time, there is this joy.\u00a0 There is this knowledge that death has been conquered.\u00a0 Christians are very, very weird people, where they are able to have simultaneous emotions.\u00a0 I think that's the worst that we can offer a person who struggles with depression.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 We can offer them joy, a sense of victory, even though they may never \"slay the beast\"\u2014the depression beast that pulls them back down\u2014but they can, in a sense, have victory in the midst of that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong>\u00a0 Have hope in the midst of it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes, a sense of hope, which is really the death knoll of depression\u2014a hopelessness.\u00a0 Once you have no hope, then your spirit is about ready to give up; but someone who still has hope in the midst of depression is someone like Ed\u2019s dad, who can continue to persevere because you know that there is a purpose in your depression.\u00a0 Therefore, your suffering isn\u2019t meaningless.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt is that meaningless suffering that just does us in.\u00a0 When we know that our suffering is for a purpose, either for our own good or for the glory of God\u2014God may use my suffering to enable someone else.\u00a0 My depression may serve to help me be a better counselor, and I can see that now.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Is it more likely that someone who is in the tunnel of depression is going to have a slow journey out rather than wake up one morning, the birds are singing, and the sky is blue; and they go, \"Well, the cloud lifted; and I'm okay.\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong>\u00a0 Well, you know, Jesus healed people in different ways.\u00a0 For some people, it was very instantaneous.\u00a0 He said, \"Get up and walk;\" and they got up and walked.\u00a0 There have been people who I've talked to who have said, \"You know, I woke up this morning and that dark cloud was gone; and praise God.\"\u00a0 Who knows why it came, and who knows why it left.\u00a0 It was there, and now it's not; but for most people, I find it's a more gradual healing.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Whether it is steps or whether it is strategies, both of you write about this.\u00a0 I'd like to explore something you talk about in both of your books.\u00a0 Ed, you have\u2014I'm looking here\u2014you have 20 practical strategies that really appeal to me, as a man.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>As a fixer.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Who wants to fix it.\u00a0 Now, you know, we're laughing about it, and I know we're not just going to fix it; but there really are some good practical helps here.\u00a0 Again, Leslie, you have steps.\u00a0 I want both of you to just share some practical strategies and steps.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong>\u00a0 Many of these strategies come from people who have been depressed.\u00a0 They have been used by folks.\u00a0 Here is one, \"Be suspicious of how you feel.\u00a0 Be suspicious of how you feel.\u201d\u00a0 In other words, \"I feel like nobody loves me.\u00a0 I feel like God doesn't love me.\"\u00a0 Feelings, when they are as pronounced as they are in depression, they demand our allegiance.\u00a0 They demand some sort of interpretive power so \"I feel like no one loves me,\" becomes, \"No one loves me.\"\u00a0 There is a huge difference between the two.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNo. 1, \u201cHow can we be suspicious of how we're feeling?\u201d\u00a0 Here is something, again, that demands great faith.\u00a0 How can we bring a humility to the process because depression is saying, \"There is no hope.\u00a0 There is no purpose.\u00a0 There is no joy\"?\u00a0 Essentially, what we're doing is, we're asking the person to have a protest against that and to say, \"No, there is hope.\u00a0 There is purpose.\u00a0 There is joy.\"\u00a0\u00a0 That protest demands immense humility.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>One of the things, dovetailing on Ed's strategy, is I talk about our heart being comprised of our feelings, which is important to recognize, but also the thought\/feeling connection because, for example, the psalmist says in \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tPsalm 55:2, \"My thoughts trouble me, and I am distraught.\"\u00a0 Our thoughts affect our feelings.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen a person feels like they're abandoned, it's because they're thinking that they have been abandoned.\u00a0 It is very important for us to understand that just because we think something is true, it doesn't necessarily make it true.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tGod's Word is a plumb line for truth.\u00a0 Even the Israelites felt abandoned by God in Isaiah 49 because they were telling themselves that God abandoned them.\u00a0 God took pains in that passage of Scripture to say, \"Though you think this, it's not true.\"\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt is very important for us to be able to understand that our heart can deceive us in our thoughts and our feelings.\u00a0 Also, our heart comprises of our will.\u00a0 That is where the psalmist says, \"As for me, I will.\"\u00a0 Partly learning to battle depression is an exercise in strengthening our will so that we can begin to say, \"As for me, I will continue to have hope in God.\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 I want to make sure our listeners understand.\u00a0 We are not suggesting that you read through a verse like that, and voila!\u00a0 Everything is fixed.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong>\u00a0\u00a0 Here's the pill.\u00a0 Yes, that would be great.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 I'm thinking, what is it, Psalm 46 where the psalmist says, \"Why so downcast, O my soul?\"\u00a0 Right?\u00a0 Just put your hope in God.\u00a0 Well, there it is.\u00a0 There's the verse on depression.\u00a0 Your soul is downcast; put your hope in God; problem cured.\u00a0 Next?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWould to God that it was that easy, right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong>\u00a0 The question of, \u201cHow do I do that in my life situation?\u201d is really the finesse of coming alongside of someone and applying the right medicine to the right problem.\u00a0 You know, there are lots of good medicines out there; but if it's not applied to the right diagnosis and the right illness, it doesn't work.\u00a0 We can do something that's not effective\u2014doesn\u2019t make it bad medicine; it just makes it not applicable.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis<\/strong>:\u00a0 Right.\u00a0 What we're talking about here, really, is applicable to every follower of Christ.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 You've got to believe the truth about who God is and what His character is like and not believe a lie that God's mean-spirited or He's evil.\u00a0 You have to believe the truth about Him, about yourself, and about life.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong>\u00a0 People have come into my counseling, \"You're so practical.\u00a0 You're so practical.\"\u00a0 I never liked that word.\u00a0 I always thought, \"I want to be inspirational.\"\u00a0 I am not inspirational; I'm practical.\u00a0 I am always the \u201chow-to person.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHow do you actually apply this?\u00a0 How do you actually help someone have hope in God?\u00a0 If God says, \"Have hope in me,\" well, then, how do you actually get that hope? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think it is really important that we take a piece of Scripture that God is telling us about and meditate on it, chew on it, and say, \"Okay, God, if this is what you're saying to me, how does this apply to my life?\u00a0 How does this apply to my feelings?\u00a0 How does this apply to my thoughts?\u00a0 How do I take this thought captive to the obedience of Christ?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen I don't, what am I supposed to do with that?\u00a0 How do I work this into my relationships?\"\u00a0 We don't just take this truth and put it on our forehead like a band-aid.\u00a0 We have to swallow it deep in our soul and make it nourish our souls.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong>\u00a0 This is where we go back to depression being a journey that you shouldn't take by yourself because what Leslie is talking about seems utterly impossible for a lot of depressed people.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong>\u00a0 That's right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>So some earlier steps would be, for example, most depressed people have some idea that there is hope in Scripture.\u00a0 They have some idea that this is truly the Living Word of God.\u00a0 It's not simply a book.\u00a0 It's the way the Spirit speaks life into us.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThey are willing, at least, to look, which might mean, \"I will read Scripture to a depressed person.\"\u00a0 I will say, \"Here are some things I found edifying.\u00a0 I don't know if you will.\u00a0 Stop me; raise your hand if there is anything that I say that could seem like God's Word spoken to you.\"\u00a0 Then, when we find that passage of Scripture, then to do exactly what Leslie said, \"Now let's stay here.\u00a0 Let's pray about this.\u00a0 Let's apply it together.\u00a0 Let's consider 25 applications of it.\u00a0 How can this truly be ours?\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>How can you walk this out tomorrow, today, this afternoon when you go home?\u00a0 I love the passage when Jesus was trying to comfort Martha after Lazarus had died.\u00a0 He was speaking to her.\u00a0 I could just picture her, her eyes glazing over, sort of saying, \"Jesus, yes, I heard this before.\" He stops in the middle and He says, \"Martha, do you believe me?\"\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOftentimes, I ask people, \"When you're reading the Scriptures, to stop themselves and say, you know, \u2018Do I really believe you, Lord?\u00a0 Do I really believe what you're saying?\u2019\u00a0 If I don't, again, be honest and, \u2018Help my unbelief.\u00a0 I don't really believe you're good, I don't really believe you love me, I don't really believe that you have a purpose in all this depression.\u2019\"\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTalk it out with God, and let God talk to you.\u00a0 That is a very important relational connection that we begin to build, even in the midst of our depression, with God.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong>\u00a0 The shorthand for this, Leslie, would be to recognize that Scripture is not simply a group of words; but it is personal communication.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong>\u00a0 That' right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong>\u00a0 I think you mentioned before that it is the wonder of the Christian life\u2014there is a certain give and take.\u00a0 God speaks, and we respond.\u00a0 How can a depressed person respond?\u00a0 The response might be as simple as saying, \"Amen.\u00a0 I believe this helped my unbelief.\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong>\u00a0 Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 I want you both to comment on this one that, Ed, you have in your book.\u00a0 \"Keep a sharp eye out for grumbling and complaining.\u00a0 Like gossip, these sins are acceptable in our culture so we don't see their ugly roots.\u00a0 What does the grumbling or complaining really say?\"\u00a0 Now, what does that have to do with depression?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong>\u00a0 Okay.\u00a0 Let me start with that by suggesting that anytime we see sin in our life, it is a really, really good thing.\u00a0 That is what I'm assuming.\u00a0 I'm assuming that as the Book of John says, \"When the Spirit comes, he is going to convict us of sin.\"\u00a0 If we see sin, we say God is on the move; and this is a wonderful expression of love that God is giving us.\u00a0 To be on the lookout for sin is just the normal Christian life; and it's an excellent, excellent process.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 I have to stop you just as you say\u2026\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>That doesn't sound excellent to you, Bob?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 It does.\u00a0 I was just with a friend who is going through a season of time where God has been doing kind of one of these revealing points.\u00a0 My friend was saying, \"I'm seeing the reality of the blackness of my own sin.\"\u00a0 We did talk, rejoicing at what a great thing this was for God to do, the kindness of God to show you your sin.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI actually pulled back and thought, \"I wonder what I'm not seeing.\u00a0 I wonder where I'm...\"\u00a0 There was part of me going, \"I probably need to, but I really am not sure I want to.\"\u00a0\u00a0 You know?\u00a0 It is that tension between, \"Lord, show me.\u00a0 Well, no.\u00a0 Well, yes.\u00a0 Well, no,\"\u00a0\u00a0 You know?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong>\u00a0 There is this fear of seeing our sin.\u00a0 There is pride that we really don't want to see that we look uglier than we thought we were, but it is likening it to looking in the mirror.\u00a0 I mean, all of us look in the mirror every morning.\u00a0 We see ourselves, and most of us admit that we need some work before we come out to the door.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat is sort of the same thing when the Scripture shows us our sin, or God shows us through His spirit our sin.\u00a0 It is like looking in the mirror.\u00a0 Then we have decide, \"Well, thank you, God, you showed me that my hair was sticking up.\u00a0 Thank you that you showed me that I've got dirt smudged all over my face, so then I can take care of this and fix this.\u00a0 It's a kindness to me that you are helping me to become a better version of myself than allowing me to continue being deceived that I\u2019m fine when I'm really not.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Okay.\u00a0 Well, back to the grumbling and complaining\u2014so we see our sin.\u00a0 How does that affect depression?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong>\u00a0 I can certainly speak personally.\u00a0 When I find myself leaning in a depressive direction, what happens?\u00a0 I get negative.\u00a0 Nothing is good.\u00a0 Everything is colored with pessimism, and it seems right to me because we live in a fallen world.\u00a0 Things don't always go very well.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen I move to a place like Numbers Chapter 14, and here people are doing things that just seem very ordinary.\u00a0 They are complaining because they are in the wilderness.\u00a0 The wilderness is a wretched place.\u00a0 That is where every depressed person, by the way, finds themselves.\u00a0 They are in the wilderness.\u00a0 The wilderness is a place that is barren and destitute, but it is also a place where you find God.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWell, instinctive to the human heart, we are going to grumble and complain.\u00a0 If you listen, sometimes to your own depression, as you overhear it, oftentimes you will hear that there is a deep grumbling and complaining.\u00a0 \u201cGod is not good.\u00a0 This world is not good.\u00a0 He is not in control.\u00a0 There is no hope in this world.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDepressed people are just like everybody else.\u00a0 We all grumble and complain.\u00a0 When you listen to depression, try to hear some of the logic of it.\u00a0 Sometimes it sounds just like Numbers 14\u2014the children of Israel in the wilderness.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong>\u00a0 But the real important thing for a person, who is depressed, when they become aware of that, is not to beat themselves up, \"Oh, what's wrong with me that I'm just a horrible sinner?\"; but to say, \"You know, I can see that God is using this awareness to help me to change to become a stronger person, to become a holier person, to be able to confess the sins.\"\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSay, \"God, I don't want to be this grumbler and complainer.\u00a0 I can see where this drags my spirit down; and Satan gets a foothold into my life when I begin to doubt your goodness and your character\u2014that you gypped me out of something good,\" which is what the Israelites were doing, \"God, you've gypped me.\u00a0 I belong in Egypt!\u00a0 I like those leeks and onions.\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\u00a0 It seems, to me, that one of the other emotions closely attached to depression is anger.\u00a0 When people have resentment in their hearts toward another person, can't forgiveness be one of the key strategies in moving and stepping out of depression\u2014forgiving another person?\u00a0 I know of a person right now who is trapped in this tunnel of depression.\u00a0 It seems like this person needs to begin by forgiving their spouse.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong>\u00a0 I have a whole chapter in my book about when people have hurt us and, \u201cHow does that affect us?\u201d and, \u201cHow does that cause us to be more vulnerable to getting depressed?\u201d\u00a0 Forgiveness, certainly, is an important part.\u00a0 We may feel like this person doesn't deserve forgiveness, and they may not; but as long as we stand and judge, then we stay in bondage.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong>\u00a0 What we're doing is:\u00a0 We're trying to listen just a little bit more carefully to depression.\u00a0 What is it saying\u2014anything in particular?\u00a0 Sometimes we can't understand what it's saying; but there are times when, Dennis, as you are pointing out, it does move us in that anger spectrum, grumbling being sort of low-level anger; complaining being low-level anger. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, what does anger say?\u00a0 Anger says, \"I want something, and I didn't get it.\u00a0 I want something, and I didn't get it.\"\u00a0 You can see how self-pity is a neighbor to that because anger is saying it loudly, \"I want something, and I didn't get it!\"\u00a0 Self-pity is saying (softly), \"I want something, I didn't get it, and I'll never get it.\"\u00a0 Both of them have that anger component.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAgain, it\u2019s a delightful opportunity to search our hearts.\u00a0 Leslie is making a very important point here:\u00a0 Here is the Law, the absolute law.\u00a0 The absolute law is:\u00a0\u00a0 Christ gets the last word.\u00a0 The last word is a word of hope and a word of beauty.\u00a0 The last word is a word that says, \"Yes, you've been faithless in your grumbling, and complaining, and your anger; but I am faithful.\u00a0 The cross assures you of my faithfulness.\"\u00a0 The last word has to be a Gospel word, which is a word of hope and encouragement.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 I think both of you are familiar with C.J. Mahaney's little book, <em>The Cross-Centered Life<\/em>.\u00a0 In that book, one of the things he talks about is the need that all of us have to do less listening to ourselves and more talking to ourselves.\u00a0 We need to hear less what we are saying and, instead, start instructing our soul on what's true.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf we can somehow get out from behind, \"Why do I feel this way and what's going on?\" and just have more of an other-centered, outward-focused, self-sacrificial life, that fulfills what the Gospel calls us to, that is going to do a lot to break up some of the fog that we're walking around in.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 And, Bob, what happens in that situation is a person who is depressed ends up feeding their soul the same stuff, the same anger, the same lack of forgiveness, the same resentment, and all the way down.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tEd and Leslie, I really want to thank you for being honest and allowing us to peer into your journey as individual followers of Christ.\u00a0 We've been talking about how depression is a part of the suffering that God can take us through as an individual believer.\u00a0 We've talked about how joy is possible if you believe the truth about who God is and what He says about you.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tFinally, we have also talked about in the tunnel, in the darkest\u2014what seems like the most hopeless situation\u2014God is there.\u00a0 He supplies other people to come alongside us in the midst of that dark tunnel to help us through and to, hopefully, help us step out of it.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI just appreciate both of you, your counseling ministry.\u00a0 I think, most of all, not just because you have a compassionate heart and a love for God and for people but that you're anchoring your wisdom and your advice back in the truth of God's Word.\u00a0 I just appreciate both of you, and hope you'll come back and join us again here on <em>FamilyLife Today.<\/em>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong>\u00a0 We\u2019d love to.\u00a0 Thank you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>That's kind of you.\u00a0 Thank you, Dennis.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 We hope this has been helpful for everybody listening, not just for those who are wrestling with depression, but for all of us who know people who are wrestling with depression.\u00a0 This conversation, we hope, has helped people know how we can love those people well, how we can walk the path with them, and support them in the midst of what they're going through.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI hope listeners will get copies of your books.\u00a0 Ed has written a book called \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>Depression:<\/em><em>\u00a0 <\/em><em>A Stubborn Darkness, Light for the Path<\/em>.\u00a0 Leslie has written a book called <em>Defeating Depression<\/em>.\u00a0 We have both of the books in our FamilyLife TodayResource Center.\u00a0 Go online at FamilyLifeToday.com for more information about how to get a copy of either or both of these books.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAgain, our website:\u00a0 FamilyLifeToday.com or call toll-free 1-800-FLTODAY\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word TODAY.\u00a0 Ask about the books on depression.\u00a0 Somebody can answer any questions you have about the books or make arrangements to have them sent to you.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThis week, we are also making available a free 64-page booklet by our friend, Randy Alcorn, that addresses the subject, \u201cIf God Is Good, Why Do We Hurt?\u201d\u00a0 It is not just about the issue of depression that we have been talking about this week\u2014it\u2019s about all kinds of issues\u2014all kinds of pain and suffering that goes on in our lives.\u00a0 It examines God\u2019s goodness in the midst of those kinds of human realities.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAgain, the booklet is a free gift that we would love to send to you this week.\u00a0 If you are a new listener to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, we would love to get acquainted.\u00a0 This is a way we can do that.\u00a0 You can go to FamilyLifeToday.com for more information about how to get a copy of the free booklet from Randy Alcorn, or call 1-800-FLTODAY.\u00a0 We will make arrangements to send it out to you.\u00a0 We are glad to have you listening, and we appreciate your support of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe want to encourage you to be back with us tomorrow when we are going to talk to a husband who walked on a journey with his wife through the pathway of darkness.\u00a0 It is an interesting story because his wife is somewhat well-known as a comedienne.\u00a0 David Pierce joins us tomorrow.\u00a0 We will hear his story.\u00a0 I hope you can be with us.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team.\u00a0 On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine.\u00a0 We will see you back tomorrow for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHelp for today.\u00a0 Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you.\u00a0 However, there is a cost to produce them for our website.\u00a0 If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright \u00a9 2011 FamilyLife.\u00a0 All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a 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