{"id":302306,"date":"2011-07-12T11:00:00","date_gmt":"2011-07-12T15:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/suffering-well\/"},"modified":"2011-07-12T11:00:00","modified_gmt":"2011-07-12T15:00:00","slug":"suffering-well","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/suffering-well\/","title":{"rendered":"Suffering Well"},"content":{"rendered":"","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>William Cowper experienced it. So did Charles Haddon Spurgeon and the Apostle Paul. What is it?  Depression.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2011-07-12.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:","filesize":"24.88M","filesize_raw":"26092448","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2846],"tags":[4008,4009,2607],"podcast_series":[7444],"cwp_profile":[9004,3229],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-302306","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-depression","tag-anxiety","tag-depression","tag-stress","podcast_series-depression-a-stubborn-darkness","cwp_profile-ed-welch","cwp_profile-leslie-vernick","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/302306\/suffering-well","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/302306\/suffering-well","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"KaftZK7NRt\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/suffering-well\/\">Suffering Well<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/suffering-well\/embed\/#?secret=KaftZK7NRt\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Suffering Well&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"KaftZK7NRt\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2011-07-12.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2011-07-12.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Ann is a wife, a mother of four; and a woman who has wrestled throughout her life with depression.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong>\u00a0 I think what helps people the most is basically just to say when someone is depressed or someone is grieving is, \"I'm so sorry.\u00a0 Tell me about it.\u00a0 Tell me about what you're feeling.\"\u00a0 It's almost like it allows someone to open up that wound of pain.\u00a0 That's the biggest gift you can give that person.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Tuesday, July 12th.\u00a0 Our host is the President of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey; and I'm Bob Lepine.\u00a0 Maybe someone you know, a friend or even a family member, is dealing with depression.\u00a0 Do you know how you can minister to him or to her?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\u00a0 Thanks for joining us on the Tuesday edition.\u00a0 You know, when I was in high school, in the choir, we sang a musical version of Psalm 13, written by an author\u2014I don\u2019t know if it was Jean Berger or Jean (Ber-zhay\u2014phonetically-spelled)\u2014but this was a contemporary author who had written a musical version of Psalm 13.\u00a0 I don\u2019t think I had ever read Psalm 13, but I have learned it because we sang it in choir.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\"O Lord, how long will you forget me?\u00a0 How long will you withhold your favor from me?\"\u00a0 Talk about melancholy\u2014you talk about somebody who is in a period of depression\u2014here is David expressing this kind of depression that has him looking around and saying, \u201cI have no hope, I have no friends, I have no joy.\u201d\u00a0 \u201cHow long will my enemies triumph over me?\u00a0 How long, O Lord, look to me and answer me.\u201d\u00a0 I mean, it even has that line in there, \u201cLord, you're not even talking to me.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes, repeatedly, David talked about God hiding His face from him.\u00a0 In\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 Psalm 88:18, he talked about how darkness was his closest friend.\u00a0 Think about that one\u2014darkness is your friend?\u00a0 There certainly are, I think, vestiges of depression, discouragement, and deep, profound sadness expressed in David's life.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 The Bible speaks to the issue of depression in all of our lives, doesn't it?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong><strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>It does, and we have a couple of friends who are going to speak to that\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 subject as well.\u00a0 Leslie Vernick and Dr. Ed Welch join us again on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\u00a0 Ed, Leslie, welcome back.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Thank you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong><strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Thanks.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Leslie is a licensed clinical social worker.\u00a0 She is a counselor and has written a book called <em>Getting Over the Blues:<\/em><em>\u00a0 <\/em><em>A Woman's Guide to Fighting Depression<\/em>.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDr. Ed Welch is also a counselor and works for Christian Counseling and Educational Foundation.\u00a0 He is also a professor of Practical Theology at Westminster Theological Seminary and has also written a book on depression called <em>Depression:<\/em><em>\u00a0 <\/em><em>A Stubborn Darkness, Light for the Path<\/em>.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tEd, I couldn't help but notice in your book that you dedicated this to your dad.\u00a0 In fact, let me just read your dedication because I think it gives us a little glimpse \u2026\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>You're going to make me cry if you do this, but go ahead.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>\"To my father, W. Edward Welch, who, on this side of heaven, after years of depression, guilt, and worry, persisted on an ordinary, yet heroic, path with quiet wisdom and is finding joy.\"\u00a0 What's behind that?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong>\u00a0 I grew up with a man who went through some of the early shock treatments in the United States.\u00a0 I had an opportunity to see depression fairly consistently\u2014episodes that were very deep at least a couple of times a year; but I had a man who lived before me a persistent, persevering faith in the midst of those difficulties.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 How old were you?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong>\u00a0 Oh, it began as early as I can remember, seeing those kinds of episodes in my father, where he would simply be incapacitated and sometimes hospitalized.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>How was he heroic?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>He was heroic in the sense that his faith, unbelievably, didn't seem to falter in the midst of that\u2014which to people who are depressed\u2014 they would find that heroic, as well.\u00a0 Again, there was perseverance in his life; there was perseverance in being outward and in seeking to love other people, including ourselves in the midst of his depression.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tMy father is not the man he used to be.\u00a0 He is still alive today.\u00a0 He barely remembers me; but in the nursing home where he lives, they say, \"There is a fine, Christian man,\"\u2014no matter who you speak to in the nursing home.\u00a0 Then you ask for some elaboration, \u201cWhat does it mean to be a fine, Christian man?\u201d\u00a0 They will talk about joy.\u00a0 When you see my father today, joy will be the thing that characterizes him.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 You would say, then, that watching him handle depression as a man for your entire life, not just your adult life\u2014but since you were a boy\u2014has really marked you as a follower of Christ.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>It certainly has.\u00a0 As I see other people who struggle with depression, that word, \u201cheroic,\u201d comes up to me all the time because to seek in a meek and humble way to try to see Christ in the midst of that kind of pain demands a kind of faith that very few people have.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 You know, as you talk about your dad, I'm reminded of something I heard John Piper say that had a profound\u2014one of those things that just sticks with you.\u00a0 He said that when we experience good fortune in life, when we experience good things happening, and we say \"Praise the Lord,\" the watching world doesn't go, \"My, what a profound witness for Christ that is;\" but when we go through darkness, valleys, and trials, and there is still joy, they can't figure that out.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong>\u00a0 The depressed person cannot imagine that they could ever be these pinnacles of faith, expressions of glory, but that's exactly what you're saying.\u00a0 A depressed person feels as if God does not hear and they are, at best, put on the shelf.\u00a0 To remind them, as we spend time with them, what an amazing testimony of glory they are to us and give them a vision for how they can do that with others.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 You may have read\u2014Piper wrote a book, in his <em>Swans are not Silent<\/em> series, biographies of Christians.\u00a0 One of them was this theme of people who were depressed.\u00a0 William Cooper, the man who wrote <em>There Is a Fountain Filled with Blood<\/em>, a contemporary of John Newton's, used to go over to Newton's all the time.\u00a0 You get this picture of thoroughly morose person that you wouldn't want to have around.\u00a0 Yet, Newton welcomed him in, continued to minister to him, and continued to give him grace.\u00a0 It's a compelling story because you wonder, \u201cHow many folks are enduring their Christian life and wondering, \u2018Why am I here, and what purpose am I serving?\u2019\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 You know, we don't think of a person being a man of faith or a woman of faith who is encountering depression; but Charles Haddon Spurgeon, the great English preacher, was a man who profoundly struggled with deep, deep depression and discouragement.\u00a0 I think once he even was preaching at a large gathering of, like, 12,000 people.\u00a0 Someone screamed, \"Fire!\"\u00a0 Six people or so lost their lives, and it spun him off into a season of depression that he had to grapple with his God about.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong>\u00a0 His entire life he grappled with his God.\u00a0 One of the pleasures that I had in thinking about the material in this book and reading people who have been depressed is, you begin to find that many, many, many saints of the church have struggled with deep depression to the point where you begin to wonder, \u201cIf you're not feeling depressed, what's wrong with me?\u201d because you see sort of this long list of God's favorites like Spurgeon, like J.B. Phillips, who have gone through very, very hard times\u2014and like David, as we began the show.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Like the Apostle Paul.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes, you're speaking of Paul.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes, in 2 Corinthians he talks about despairing even of life and \"God who comforts the depressed comforted me by the coming of Titus.\"\u00a0 Paul was talking about his own despair and his own depression.\u00a0 Even in the midst of that, he had perspective on eternity, which gave him hope in the midst of that darkness.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Here is how we normally think, \u201cI'm a Christian.\u00a0 I'm experiencing depression.\u00a0 Those two should not go together because, \u2018The joy of the Lord is my strength,\u2019 and I should be, \u201cRejoice in the Lord always; again, I say rejoice.\u2019\u201d\u00a0 All of these statements, \u201cThe fruit of the Spirit is love, joy\u201d\u2014we think a Christian ought to be one whose life is characterized by joy.\u00a0 If I'm not feeling that, if I'm not experiencing that, is there something spiritually wrong with me?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong>\u00a0 Well, James tells us that we're to consider it all joy whenever we face troubles.\u00a0 If we face depression, how do we face it with joy?\u00a0 I'll just do kind of a silly example.\u00a0 When you're working out at the gym, nobody finds that pleasurable, for the most part.\u00a0 If you're working hard enough, you're not finding it pleasurable; you're suffering.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Amen.\u00a0 Amen.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Bob, you've never even been to the gym.\u00a0 Don't act like you've been there and experienced that.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t(laughter)\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong>\u00a0 So the way I kind of get my hands around this concept of joy is what keeps you enduring in the midst of that suffering is that mindset that something good is happening in you.\u00a0 You're developing \u2026\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 That there's purpose.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong>\u00a0 There's purpose; you're developing strength; you're developing muscles.\u00a0 Even if it's for vanity's sake, you're developing something inside of you.\u00a0 Spiritually, James uses that metaphor to help us understand that joy isn't this pleasurable, emotional high.\u00a0 It's an inner sense of calm; it's an inner sense of knowing that something good is happening in the midst of great suffering.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>So depression and Christian\u2014those should go together?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong>\u00a0 Bob, you started off with Psalm 13.\u00a0 If you want to get a good sense of what is the appropriate emotional gamut for the Christian life, you go to the Psalms.\u00a0 Recognize, of course, that the Psalms are not simply one person's experience, but these Psalms are all pointing to the Divine Singer himself.\u00a0 They are ultimately the Psalms of Jesus Christ.\u00a0 He is giving us words to say in the midst of our difficulties.\u00a0 We are encouraged to speak these very words to the Lord.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 David comes, at the end of that Psalm\u2014I remember singing it because the music changes.\u00a0 It goes from this minor key to a, \"But on Thy kindness I, indeed, rely; let me exalt over Thy saving grace.\u00a0 I will sing unto the Lord.\"\u00a0 In one Psalm, you go from, \"You're not hearing me,\" to, \"I will sing to you.\"\u00a0 It is almost like, \u201cWhat happened in the meantime?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong>\u00a0 It is as if a depressed person must begin the Psalms with just little, tiny pieces, where you begin with a verse, \"Okay, that captures me.\u00a0 I feel like God doesn't hear me at all.\"\u00a0 You, at least, find your heart encouraged and your faith built up that God understands and knows, is even giving you words to speak these things.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThen, in the midst of that, you develop a vision, over time, to say, \"I don't want simply to have one little piece of that Psalm.\u00a0 I want that entire Psalm of David to be my own,\" which, again, is something utterly heroic that we can, I believe, in prayer, go to the Lord and ask for those kinds of things with the confidence that He will give us the Psalm.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong>\u00a0 Well, we notice in the Psalms a lot, where David is pouring out his heart to God, by the end of the Psalm, David is listening to God.\u00a0 Part of the rhythm, I think, of prayer is talking and listening, for all of us, not just the depressed person.\u00a0 For the depressed person, it is very hard because, first of all, they've got to be honest.\u00a0 It is hard for a depressed person, sometimes, to be honest because they feel so ashamed that they are angry at God or that they have these horrible feelings inside\u2014that they want to die.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt is really hard, sometimes, for them to just be honest with themselves; but we see in the Psalms that Jeremiah, David, and other people who talk to God, talk to Him honestly.\u00a0 God wants us to come to Him with an open, honest heart, even if what we say and feel are not the more pleasant range of emotions.\u00a0 The more we get in the habit of pretending\u2014I talk a lot about women are good at pretending that they don\u2019t feel what they really feel.\u00a0 The more we keep pretending, we distance ourselves from who we really are and what we really feel.\u00a0 Then we can\u2019t fix \u201cit\u201d because we don\u2019t even know what \u201cit\u201d is.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>You know, one of the things that, as we talk about depression, that hit me as I was reading both of your books, depression is a form of suffering.\u00a0 That does not sound like a profound statement; but, I think, if we simply establish a category medically that a person is depressed and we leave it in the medical realm\u2014off in a corner by itself over there, even away from other forms of suffering\u2014I think we need to be careful that we don\u2019t divorce depression from the theme of suffering because we are called as we follow Christ to suffer.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>If a depressed person somehow has the gumption to search Scripture, which is heroic, if they somehow have that gumption, and they try to look for the word, \u201cdepression,\u201d they are not going to find much, if anything; but if they simply listen to their experience and recognize this is a profound form of suffering, suddenly every page of Scripture speaks to them personally.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Ed, I want to take you back to your dad.\u00a0 \u201cHow did you see your dad suffer well?\u201d because, ultimately, that's what you're saying he did and how he practiced an heroic faith.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong>\u00a0 One, he would ask for help.\u00a0 Believe it or not, he would ask me, as a teenager, for help.\u00a0 He would ask me, as a teenager, to pray for him in the midst of his depression and feeling so miserable.\u00a0 How many fathers ask their son\u2014 how many fathers have the humility to ask their son to help them in such a way?\u00a0 That is certainly one thing that I saw.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI mentioned his \u201cout-wardness.\u201d\u00a0 There was a persistent generosity in my father, financially and in terms of time, to people\u2014and this was not unusual\u2014to people who were miserable people.\u00a0 Miserable in that they felt miserable or their circumstances were miserable.\u00a0 He had a keen eye for people who felt like this.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 So in the midst of his own despair and dark tunnel, he reached out to others?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong>\u00a0 Heroic, absolutely heroic.\u00a0 One of the tasks that we, as people who walk along with those who are depressed, have is to be able to point out those amazing expressions of faith because the depressed person feels like they are forsaken by God.\u00a0 They feel like the Spirit is not with them in any way.\u00a0 They can't imagine anything good except for the alleviation of depression.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHow can we, who walk along with depressed people, when they are willing to adopt part of a Psalm, be able to say, \"That is the powerful work of the Spirit\"?\u00a0 \u201cWe desire that your depression is alleviated.\u00a0 We desire that as much as you do; but notice this\u2014to be able to seek Christ in the midst of suffering\u2014that is\u2014that is the stuff that the angels sing about and are amazed at.\u00a0 They say, \u2018Oh, that is what the cross of Christ has done.\u2019\u201d\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 I know there are a number of different strategies for dealing with depression.\u00a0 You list some of them in your book.\u00a0 You both talk about strategies for dealing with depression; but, I think, you've really touched on one here.\u00a0 If you can muster the energy to be involved in some kind of outreach ministry to others, if you can somehow just get involved in serving other people, that's therapeutic as it relates to your depression, isn't it?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong>\u00a0 One of the old men I had a chance to speak to, a 75-year-old man\u2014he has been depressed his entire life.\u00a0 There is the kind of person\u2014you want to talk to him and just glean the wisdom that he's received.\u00a0 His wisdom was really fairly simple.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe question was, \"Why did you get up every morning?\"\u00a0 He said, \"The reason I got up every morning was because I was called to love people.\u00a0 I would look to love somebody every single day.\"\u00a0 There you want to take your shoes off and say, \"I'm on holy ground.\u00a0 That kind of spirit is here.\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong>\u00a0 Well, certainly, I think that one of the things that depression does, and you speak to this quite well in your book, is that it really turns a person in on themselves.\u00a0 They become overly analytical, overly introspective.\u00a0 They examine every flaw that they have in life and everything that's wrong with them with a magnifying glass.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think one of the strategies that is really important is that you begin to take your eyes off of yourself and you put them on Christ so that you begin to see things differently\u2014even yourself differently, your purpose differently, and life differently.\u00a0 You begin to practice having an outward-focus.\u00a0 Some of us, by nature, even if we're not depressed, tend to have a more inward-focus.\u00a0 That can really get us into trouble because it makes us more depression-prone and more vulnerable to depression when life\u2019s circumstances are difficult.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tGod wants us to look outward, fixing our eyes on Christ.\u00a0 Jesus did that as our example, and we are to do that as well.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong>\u00a0 I can start off with a comment for those who are living with depressed people.\u00a0 Try not to take it personally because one of the experiences of depression is that you are emotionally dead.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tEmotionally dead means that if I love this person who is depressed\u2014and I pour out my life to them, and they have utterly no response to me\u2014at some point I'm going to fatigue.\u00a0 I shouldn't fatigue, but at some point I'm going to fatigue in reaching out to them because I'm not getting anything in return.\u00a0 The fact that there is nothing in return does not mean the person doesn't care about you.\u00a0 It means they are emotionally dead inside.\u00a0 They feel nothing.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 When we are called, \u201cto bear one another's burdens,\u201d that is what we are being called to, aren't we?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong>\u00a0 That right and to help the weak.\u00a0 So someone is weak at that point, we're to help bear their burdens or lift them up.\u00a0 We don't want to do that in trite, meaningless ways by just saying, you know, \"Snap out of it,\" or, \"The joy of the Lord should be your strength,\" or any of these quick and fast results that come from not really thinking deeply about someone's suffering.\u00a0 Come alongside, like Job's friends initially did.\u00a0 They just sat with him, and they comforted him.\u00a0 They said, \"I see that your pain is deep, and I don't know what you're going through.\"\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen they began to give him the trite answers, \"This is why you're suffering,\" that they really irritated Job.\u00a0 Sometimes we can irritate a depressed person by misdiagnosing and saying, \"Well, you must have depression because you don't have enough faith,\" or, \"You must have some sin in your life,\" or, \"You must be doing something wrong.\"\u00a0 All of that might contain some elements of truth; but wouldn't that be true for even a person who wasn't depressed, having those things true in their life?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 What you both are calling the person who is depressed to do, or the person who lives in close proximity to that person, is to live a life of faith and look beyond the suffering to the purpose of God in that suffering and to the God who takes us all through different things.\u00a0 \u201cWhat is He trying to teach me?\u00a0 What does He want me to learn by loving and living with this person and attempting to encourage them and strengthen them in the midst of tough days?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou know, personally, Barbara and I have never experienced depression like we're talking about here.\u00a0 So I really don't know what it means to experience that personal rejection, Ed, that you said someone who lives in a close relationship with a depressed person can begin to feel; but you know what?\u00a0 That person who does live there can look beyond the suffering to the God who loves them and to the God who wants to guide them, empower them, equip them, and encourage them to continue on.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong>\u00a0 I worked with a couple who were\u2014he was just a hero to her.\u00a0 She was so depressed she couldn't even lift up her eyes.\u00a0 She was that depressed.\u00a0 He just encouraged her, he prayed for her, he brought her to the doctor, he looked on the Internet for some sort of help for her.\u00a0 He was her strength and her energy.\u00a0 God used him in a mighty way to love her, and I think that's what God calls us to do to one another.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 And the books that both of you have written are books, not just for those who are experiencing depression, but for those who are living with those experiencing depression.\u00a0 You've got strategies, not just for, \u201cHow do I deal with my own stubborn darkness?\u201d but, \u201cHow do I walk somebody through that path?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong>\u00a0 Certainly, in my book, and I'm sure Leslie's book is exactly the same way, my desire is that the book is a team project where a depressed person and another person come together because suffering is never a journey that anybody should take by themselves.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 \u00a0That's right.\u00a0 We have both of your books in our <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Resource Center.\u00a0 If our listeners are interested, they can go to FamilyLifeToday.com for more information on Ed Welch's book.\u00a0 It is called <em>Depression:<\/em><em>\u00a0 <\/em><em>A Stubborn Darkness.<\/em><em>\u00a0 <\/em>Leslie\u2019s book is called <em>Defeating Depression.<\/em>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>\u00a0<\/em>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAgain, you will find more information on our website:\u00a0 FamilyLifeToday.com.\u00a0 You can order the books from us online or call 1-800-FLTODAY (1-800-358-6329).\u00a0 That is 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word \u201cTODAY.\u201d\u00a0 Get in touch with us.\u00a0 We can let you know how you can get either or both of these books sent to you.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI know for a lot of folks who are wrestling with an issue like this or any kind of suffering, tragedy, discouragement,\u00a0 or defeat in life, the question pops up, \u201cHow can God be a good God, a loving God, be all powerful, and still allow this kind of hurt to happen in my life?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOur friend, Randy Alcorn, has tackled that subject in a 64-page booklet that is called \u201cIf God Is Good, Why Do I Hurt?\u201d\u00a0 This week, we want to make a copy of that booklet available to you, at no cost.\u00a0 You may be new to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, haven\u2019t listened for very long.\u00a0 We would love to connect with you.\u00a0 This is a booklet that we would be happy to put in your hands, again, at no cost.\u00a0 Go online at FamilyLifeToday.com to request a copy; or call 1-800-FLTODAY and ask for the free booklet, \u201cIf God Is Good, Why Do I Hurt?\u201d\u00a0 Again, the number is 1-800-FLTODAY; or you can order online at FamilyLifeToday.com.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAs we wrap things up today, Ed, I was thinking about the fact that there are a lot of folks who are listening who may have never stopped to think about a parent's struggle with depression the way that you've expressed it today.\u00a0 They've never considered the heroic struggle that it may have actually been for a mom or for a dad to wrestle throughout their life with depression.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong>\u00a0 The last time I actually talked to my father I said this, \"Dad, you have been just an amazing example to me of faith throughout your entire life.\u00a0 Your life is one of the significant things that has brought me to Christ because there were certain things I could not explain.\u00a0 Why would someone who feels that miserable, so often, continue to seek this Lord?\u00a0 There is something here that I don't understand.\u00a0 There is a hope possible here that I don't understand.\"\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tMy father walked that for many years.\u00a0 I said to my father before, \"Dad, thank you.\u00a0 I love you, I honor you, and I respect you.\u00a0 My life has been changed because I have watched your life.\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong><em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHelp for today.\u00a0 Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you.\u00a0 However, there is a cost to produce them for our website.\u00a0 If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright \u00a9 2011 FamilyLife.\u00a0 All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>"],"_seopress_titles_title":[""],"_seopress_titles_desc":[""],"_seopress_robots_index":[""],"duration":["00:"],"show_notes":[""],"_thumbnail_id":["294104"],"filesize":["24.88M"],"filesize_raw":["26092448"],"_uag_css_file_name":["uag-css-302306.css"],"_uag_js_file_name":["uag-js-302306.js"],"_uag_page_assets":["a:9:{s:3:\"css\";s:82560:\".wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-top svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-top .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: 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Cowper experienced it. So did Charles Haddon Spurgeon and the Apostle Paul. What is it? Depression.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2011-07-12.pdf","transcript_content":"<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Ann is a wife, a mother of four; and a woman who has wrestled throughout her life with depression.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ann:<\/strong>\u00a0 I think what helps people the most is basically just to say when someone is depressed or someone is grieving is, \"I'm so sorry.\u00a0 Tell me about it.\u00a0 Tell me about what you're feeling.\"\u00a0 It's almost like it allows someone to open up that wound of pain.\u00a0 That's the biggest gift you can give that person.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Tuesday, July 12th.\u00a0 Our host is the President of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey; and I'm Bob Lepine.\u00a0 Maybe someone you know, a friend or even a family member, is dealing with depression.\u00a0 Do you know how you can minister to him or to her?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\u00a0 Thanks for joining us on the Tuesday edition.\u00a0 You know, when I was in high school, in the choir, we sang a musical version of Psalm 13, written by an author\u2014I don\u2019t know if it was Jean Berger or Jean (Ber-zhay\u2014phonetically-spelled)\u2014but this was a contemporary author who had written a musical version of Psalm 13.\u00a0 I don\u2019t think I had ever read Psalm 13, but I have learned it because we sang it in choir.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\"O Lord, how long will you forget me?\u00a0 How long will you withhold your favor from me?\"\u00a0 Talk about melancholy\u2014you talk about somebody who is in a period of depression\u2014here is David expressing this kind of depression that has him looking around and saying, \u201cI have no hope, I have no friends, I have no joy.\u201d\u00a0 \u201cHow long will my enemies triumph over me?\u00a0 How long, O Lord, look to me and answer me.\u201d\u00a0 I mean, it even has that line in there, \u201cLord, you're not even talking to me.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes, repeatedly, David talked about God hiding His face from him.\u00a0 In\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 Psalm 88:18, he talked about how darkness was his closest friend.\u00a0 Think about that one\u2014darkness is your friend?\u00a0 There certainly are, I think, vestiges of depression, discouragement, and deep, profound sadness expressed in David's life.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 The Bible speaks to the issue of depression in all of our lives, doesn't it?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong><strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>It does, and we have a couple of friends who are going to speak to that\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 subject as well.\u00a0 Leslie Vernick and Dr. Ed Welch join us again on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\u00a0 Ed, Leslie, welcome back.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Thank you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong><strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Thanks.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Leslie is a licensed clinical social worker.\u00a0 She is a counselor and has written a book called <em>Getting Over the Blues:<\/em><em>\u00a0 <\/em><em>A Woman's Guide to Fighting Depression<\/em>.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDr. Ed Welch is also a counselor and works for Christian Counseling and Educational Foundation.\u00a0 He is also a professor of Practical Theology at Westminster Theological Seminary and has also written a book on depression called <em>Depression:<\/em><em>\u00a0 <\/em><em>A Stubborn Darkness, Light for the Path<\/em>.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tEd, I couldn't help but notice in your book that you dedicated this to your dad.\u00a0 In fact, let me just read your dedication because I think it gives us a little glimpse \u2026\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>You're going to make me cry if you do this, but go ahead.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>\"To my father, W. Edward Welch, who, on this side of heaven, after years of depression, guilt, and worry, persisted on an ordinary, yet heroic, path with quiet wisdom and is finding joy.\"\u00a0 What's behind that?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong>\u00a0 I grew up with a man who went through some of the early shock treatments in the United States.\u00a0 I had an opportunity to see depression fairly consistently\u2014episodes that were very deep at least a couple of times a year; but I had a man who lived before me a persistent, persevering faith in the midst of those difficulties.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 How old were you?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong>\u00a0 Oh, it began as early as I can remember, seeing those kinds of episodes in my father, where he would simply be incapacitated and sometimes hospitalized.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>How was he heroic?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>He was heroic in the sense that his faith, unbelievably, didn't seem to falter in the midst of that\u2014which to people who are depressed\u2014 they would find that heroic, as well.\u00a0 Again, there was perseverance in his life; there was perseverance in being outward and in seeking to love other people, including ourselves in the midst of his depression.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tMy father is not the man he used to be.\u00a0 He is still alive today.\u00a0 He barely remembers me; but in the nursing home where he lives, they say, \"There is a fine, Christian man,\"\u2014no matter who you speak to in the nursing home.\u00a0 Then you ask for some elaboration, \u201cWhat does it mean to be a fine, Christian man?\u201d\u00a0 They will talk about joy.\u00a0 When you see my father today, joy will be the thing that characterizes him.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 You would say, then, that watching him handle depression as a man for your entire life, not just your adult life\u2014but since you were a boy\u2014has really marked you as a follower of Christ.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>It certainly has.\u00a0 As I see other people who struggle with depression, that word, \u201cheroic,\u201d comes up to me all the time because to seek in a meek and humble way to try to see Christ in the midst of that kind of pain demands a kind of faith that very few people have.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 You know, as you talk about your dad, I'm reminded of something I heard John Piper say that had a profound\u2014one of those things that just sticks with you.\u00a0 He said that when we experience good fortune in life, when we experience good things happening, and we say \"Praise the Lord,\" the watching world doesn't go, \"My, what a profound witness for Christ that is;\" but when we go through darkness, valleys, and trials, and there is still joy, they can't figure that out.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong>\u00a0 The depressed person cannot imagine that they could ever be these pinnacles of faith, expressions of glory, but that's exactly what you're saying.\u00a0 A depressed person feels as if God does not hear and they are, at best, put on the shelf.\u00a0 To remind them, as we spend time with them, what an amazing testimony of glory they are to us and give them a vision for how they can do that with others.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 You may have read\u2014Piper wrote a book, in his <em>Swans are not Silent<\/em> series, biographies of Christians.\u00a0 One of them was this theme of people who were depressed.\u00a0 William Cooper, the man who wrote <em>There Is a Fountain Filled with Blood<\/em>, a contemporary of John Newton's, used to go over to Newton's all the time.\u00a0 You get this picture of thoroughly morose person that you wouldn't want to have around.\u00a0 Yet, Newton welcomed him in, continued to minister to him, and continued to give him grace.\u00a0 It's a compelling story because you wonder, \u201cHow many folks are enduring their Christian life and wondering, \u2018Why am I here, and what purpose am I serving?\u2019\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 You know, we don't think of a person being a man of faith or a woman of faith who is encountering depression; but Charles Haddon Spurgeon, the great English preacher, was a man who profoundly struggled with deep, deep depression and discouragement.\u00a0 I think once he even was preaching at a large gathering of, like, 12,000 people.\u00a0 Someone screamed, \"Fire!\"\u00a0 Six people or so lost their lives, and it spun him off into a season of depression that he had to grapple with his God about.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong>\u00a0 His entire life he grappled with his God.\u00a0 One of the pleasures that I had in thinking about the material in this book and reading people who have been depressed is, you begin to find that many, many, many saints of the church have struggled with deep depression to the point where you begin to wonder, \u201cIf you're not feeling depressed, what's wrong with me?\u201d because you see sort of this long list of God's favorites like Spurgeon, like J.B. Phillips, who have gone through very, very hard times\u2014and like David, as we began the show.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Like the Apostle Paul.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes, you're speaking of Paul.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes, in 2 Corinthians he talks about despairing even of life and \"God who comforts the depressed comforted me by the coming of Titus.\"\u00a0 Paul was talking about his own despair and his own depression.\u00a0 Even in the midst of that, he had perspective on eternity, which gave him hope in the midst of that darkness.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Here is how we normally think, \u201cI'm a Christian.\u00a0 I'm experiencing depression.\u00a0 Those two should not go together because, \u2018The joy of the Lord is my strength,\u2019 and I should be, \u201cRejoice in the Lord always; again, I say rejoice.\u2019\u201d\u00a0 All of these statements, \u201cThe fruit of the Spirit is love, joy\u201d\u2014we think a Christian ought to be one whose life is characterized by joy.\u00a0 If I'm not feeling that, if I'm not experiencing that, is there something spiritually wrong with me?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong>\u00a0 Well, James tells us that we're to consider it all joy whenever we face troubles.\u00a0 If we face depression, how do we face it with joy?\u00a0 I'll just do kind of a silly example.\u00a0 When you're working out at the gym, nobody finds that pleasurable, for the most part.\u00a0 If you're working hard enough, you're not finding it pleasurable; you're suffering.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Amen.\u00a0 Amen.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Bob, you've never even been to the gym.\u00a0 Don't act like you've been there and experienced that.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t(laughter)\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong>\u00a0 So the way I kind of get my hands around this concept of joy is what keeps you enduring in the midst of that suffering is that mindset that something good is happening in you.\u00a0 You're developing \u2026\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 That there's purpose.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong>\u00a0 There's purpose; you're developing strength; you're developing muscles.\u00a0 Even if it's for vanity's sake, you're developing something inside of you.\u00a0 Spiritually, James uses that metaphor to help us understand that joy isn't this pleasurable, emotional high.\u00a0 It's an inner sense of calm; it's an inner sense of knowing that something good is happening in the midst of great suffering.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>So depression and Christian\u2014those should go together?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong>\u00a0 Bob, you started off with Psalm 13.\u00a0 If you want to get a good sense of what is the appropriate emotional gamut for the Christian life, you go to the Psalms.\u00a0 Recognize, of course, that the Psalms are not simply one person's experience, but these Psalms are all pointing to the Divine Singer himself.\u00a0 They are ultimately the Psalms of Jesus Christ.\u00a0 He is giving us words to say in the midst of our difficulties.\u00a0 We are encouraged to speak these very words to the Lord.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 David comes, at the end of that Psalm\u2014I remember singing it because the music changes.\u00a0 It goes from this minor key to a, \"But on Thy kindness I, indeed, rely; let me exalt over Thy saving grace.\u00a0 I will sing unto the Lord.\"\u00a0 In one Psalm, you go from, \"You're not hearing me,\" to, \"I will sing to you.\"\u00a0 It is almost like, \u201cWhat happened in the meantime?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong>\u00a0 It is as if a depressed person must begin the Psalms with just little, tiny pieces, where you begin with a verse, \"Okay, that captures me.\u00a0 I feel like God doesn't hear me at all.\"\u00a0 You, at least, find your heart encouraged and your faith built up that God understands and knows, is even giving you words to speak these things.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThen, in the midst of that, you develop a vision, over time, to say, \"I don't want simply to have one little piece of that Psalm.\u00a0 I want that entire Psalm of David to be my own,\" which, again, is something utterly heroic that we can, I believe, in prayer, go to the Lord and ask for those kinds of things with the confidence that He will give us the Psalm.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong>\u00a0 Well, we notice in the Psalms a lot, where David is pouring out his heart to God, by the end of the Psalm, David is listening to God.\u00a0 Part of the rhythm, I think, of prayer is talking and listening, for all of us, not just the depressed person.\u00a0 For the depressed person, it is very hard because, first of all, they've got to be honest.\u00a0 It is hard for a depressed person, sometimes, to be honest because they feel so ashamed that they are angry at God or that they have these horrible feelings inside\u2014that they want to die.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt is really hard, sometimes, for them to just be honest with themselves; but we see in the Psalms that Jeremiah, David, and other people who talk to God, talk to Him honestly.\u00a0 God wants us to come to Him with an open, honest heart, even if what we say and feel are not the more pleasant range of emotions.\u00a0 The more we get in the habit of pretending\u2014I talk a lot about women are good at pretending that they don\u2019t feel what they really feel.\u00a0 The more we keep pretending, we distance ourselves from who we really are and what we really feel.\u00a0 Then we can\u2019t fix \u201cit\u201d because we don\u2019t even know what \u201cit\u201d is.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>You know, one of the things that, as we talk about depression, that hit me as I was reading both of your books, depression is a form of suffering.\u00a0 That does not sound like a profound statement; but, I think, if we simply establish a category medically that a person is depressed and we leave it in the medical realm\u2014off in a corner by itself over there, even away from other forms of suffering\u2014I think we need to be careful that we don\u2019t divorce depression from the theme of suffering because we are called as we follow Christ to suffer.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>If a depressed person somehow has the gumption to search Scripture, which is heroic, if they somehow have that gumption, and they try to look for the word, \u201cdepression,\u201d they are not going to find much, if anything; but if they simply listen to their experience and recognize this is a profound form of suffering, suddenly every page of Scripture speaks to them personally.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Ed, I want to take you back to your dad.\u00a0 \u201cHow did you see your dad suffer well?\u201d because, ultimately, that's what you're saying he did and how he practiced an heroic faith.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong>\u00a0 One, he would ask for help.\u00a0 Believe it or not, he would ask me, as a teenager, for help.\u00a0 He would ask me, as a teenager, to pray for him in the midst of his depression and feeling so miserable.\u00a0 How many fathers ask their son\u2014 how many fathers have the humility to ask their son to help them in such a way?\u00a0 That is certainly one thing that I saw.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI mentioned his \u201cout-wardness.\u201d\u00a0 There was a persistent generosity in my father, financially and in terms of time, to people\u2014and this was not unusual\u2014to people who were miserable people.\u00a0 Miserable in that they felt miserable or their circumstances were miserable.\u00a0 He had a keen eye for people who felt like this.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 So in the midst of his own despair and dark tunnel, he reached out to others?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong>\u00a0 Heroic, absolutely heroic.\u00a0 One of the tasks that we, as people who walk along with those who are depressed, have is to be able to point out those amazing expressions of faith because the depressed person feels like they are forsaken by God.\u00a0 They feel like the Spirit is not with them in any way.\u00a0 They can't imagine anything good except for the alleviation of depression.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHow can we, who walk along with depressed people, when they are willing to adopt part of a Psalm, be able to say, \"That is the powerful work of the Spirit\"?\u00a0 \u201cWe desire that your depression is alleviated.\u00a0 We desire that as much as you do; but notice this\u2014to be able to seek Christ in the midst of suffering\u2014that is\u2014that is the stuff that the angels sing about and are amazed at.\u00a0 They say, \u2018Oh, that is what the cross of Christ has done.\u2019\u201d\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 I know there are a number of different strategies for dealing with depression.\u00a0 You list some of them in your book.\u00a0 You both talk about strategies for dealing with depression; but, I think, you've really touched on one here.\u00a0 If you can muster the energy to be involved in some kind of outreach ministry to others, if you can somehow just get involved in serving other people, that's therapeutic as it relates to your depression, isn't it?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong>\u00a0 One of the old men I had a chance to speak to, a 75-year-old man\u2014he has been depressed his entire life.\u00a0 There is the kind of person\u2014you want to talk to him and just glean the wisdom that he's received.\u00a0 His wisdom was really fairly simple.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe question was, \"Why did you get up every morning?\"\u00a0 He said, \"The reason I got up every morning was because I was called to love people.\u00a0 I would look to love somebody every single day.\"\u00a0 There you want to take your shoes off and say, \"I'm on holy ground.\u00a0 That kind of spirit is here.\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong>\u00a0 Well, certainly, I think that one of the things that depression does, and you speak to this quite well in your book, is that it really turns a person in on themselves.\u00a0 They become overly analytical, overly introspective.\u00a0 They examine every flaw that they have in life and everything that's wrong with them with a magnifying glass.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think one of the strategies that is really important is that you begin to take your eyes off of yourself and you put them on Christ so that you begin to see things differently\u2014even yourself differently, your purpose differently, and life differently.\u00a0 You begin to practice having an outward-focus.\u00a0 Some of us, by nature, even if we're not depressed, tend to have a more inward-focus.\u00a0 That can really get us into trouble because it makes us more depression-prone and more vulnerable to depression when life\u2019s circumstances are difficult.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tGod wants us to look outward, fixing our eyes on Christ.\u00a0 Jesus did that as our example, and we are to do that as well.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong>\u00a0 I can start off with a comment for those who are living with depressed people.\u00a0 Try not to take it personally because one of the experiences of depression is that you are emotionally dead.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tEmotionally dead means that if I love this person who is depressed\u2014and I pour out my life to them, and they have utterly no response to me\u2014at some point I'm going to fatigue.\u00a0 I shouldn't fatigue, but at some point I'm going to fatigue in reaching out to them because I'm not getting anything in return.\u00a0 The fact that there is nothing in return does not mean the person doesn't care about you.\u00a0 It means they are emotionally dead inside.\u00a0 They feel nothing.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 When we are called, \u201cto bear one another's burdens,\u201d that is what we are being called to, aren't we?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong>\u00a0 That right and to help the weak.\u00a0 So someone is weak at that point, we're to help bear their burdens or lift them up.\u00a0 We don't want to do that in trite, meaningless ways by just saying, you know, \"Snap out of it,\" or, \"The joy of the Lord should be your strength,\" or any of these quick and fast results that come from not really thinking deeply about someone's suffering.\u00a0 Come alongside, like Job's friends initially did.\u00a0 They just sat with him, and they comforted him.\u00a0 They said, \"I see that your pain is deep, and I don't know what you're going through.\"\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen they began to give him the trite answers, \"This is why you're suffering,\" that they really irritated Job.\u00a0 Sometimes we can irritate a depressed person by misdiagnosing and saying, \"Well, you must have depression because you don't have enough faith,\" or, \"You must have some sin in your life,\" or, \"You must be doing something wrong.\"\u00a0 All of that might contain some elements of truth; but wouldn't that be true for even a person who wasn't depressed, having those things true in their life?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 What you both are calling the person who is depressed to do, or the person who lives in close proximity to that person, is to live a life of faith and look beyond the suffering to the purpose of God in that suffering and to the God who takes us all through different things.\u00a0 \u201cWhat is He trying to teach me?\u00a0 What does He want me to learn by loving and living with this person and attempting to encourage them and strengthen them in the midst of tough days?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou know, personally, Barbara and I have never experienced depression like we're talking about here.\u00a0 So I really don't know what it means to experience that personal rejection, Ed, that you said someone who lives in a close relationship with a depressed person can begin to feel; but you know what?\u00a0 That person who does live there can look beyond the suffering to the God who loves them and to the God who wants to guide them, empower them, equip them, and encourage them to continue on.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong>\u00a0 I worked with a couple who were\u2014he was just a hero to her.\u00a0 She was so depressed she couldn't even lift up her eyes.\u00a0 She was that depressed.\u00a0 He just encouraged her, he prayed for her, he brought her to the doctor, he looked on the Internet for some sort of help for her.\u00a0 He was her strength and her energy.\u00a0 God used him in a mighty way to love her, and I think that's what God calls us to do to one another.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 And the books that both of you have written are books, not just for those who are experiencing depression, but for those who are living with those experiencing depression.\u00a0 You've got strategies, not just for, \u201cHow do I deal with my own stubborn darkness?\u201d but, \u201cHow do I walk somebody through that path?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong>\u00a0 Certainly, in my book, and I'm sure Leslie's book is exactly the same way, my desire is that the book is a team project where a depressed person and another person come together because suffering is never a journey that anybody should take by themselves.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 \u00a0That's right.\u00a0 We have both of your books in our <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Resource Center.\u00a0 If our listeners are interested, they can go to FamilyLifeToday.com for more information on Ed Welch's book.\u00a0 It is called <em>Depression:<\/em><em>\u00a0 <\/em><em>A Stubborn Darkness.<\/em><em>\u00a0 <\/em>Leslie\u2019s book is called <em>Defeating Depression.<\/em>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>\u00a0<\/em>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAgain, you will find more information on our website:\u00a0 FamilyLifeToday.com.\u00a0 You can order the books from us online or call 1-800-FLTODAY (1-800-358-6329).\u00a0 That is 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word \u201cTODAY.\u201d\u00a0 Get in touch with us.\u00a0 We can let you know how you can get either or both of these books sent to you.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI know for a lot of folks who are wrestling with an issue like this or any kind of suffering, tragedy, discouragement,\u00a0 or defeat in life, the question pops up, \u201cHow can God be a good God, a loving God, be all powerful, and still allow this kind of hurt to happen in my life?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOur friend, Randy Alcorn, has tackled that subject in a 64-page booklet that is called \u201cIf God Is Good, Why Do I Hurt?\u201d\u00a0 This week, we want to make a copy of that booklet available to you, at no cost.\u00a0 You may be new to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, haven\u2019t listened for very long.\u00a0 We would love to connect with you.\u00a0 This is a booklet that we would be happy to put in your hands, again, at no cost.\u00a0 Go online at FamilyLifeToday.com to request a copy; or call 1-800-FLTODAY and ask for the free booklet, \u201cIf God Is Good, Why Do I Hurt?\u201d\u00a0 Again, the number is 1-800-FLTODAY; or you can order online at FamilyLifeToday.com.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAs we wrap things up today, Ed, I was thinking about the fact that there are a lot of folks who are listening who may have never stopped to think about a parent's struggle with depression the way that you've expressed it today.\u00a0 They've never considered the heroic struggle that it may have actually been for a mom or for a dad to wrestle throughout their life with depression.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed:<\/strong>\u00a0 The last time I actually talked to my father I said this, \"Dad, you have been just an amazing example to me of faith throughout your entire life.\u00a0 Your life is one of the significant things that has brought me to Christ because there were certain things I could not explain.\u00a0 Why would someone who feels that miserable, so often, continue to seek this Lord?\u00a0 There is something here that I don't understand.\u00a0 There is a hope possible here that I don't understand.\"\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tMy father walked that for many years.\u00a0 I said to my father before, \"Dad, thank you.\u00a0 I love you, I honor you, and I respect you.\u00a0 My life has been changed because I have watched your life.\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong><em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHelp for today.\u00a0 Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you.\u00a0 However, there is a cost to produce them for our website.\u00a0 If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright \u00a9 2011 FamilyLife.\u00a0 All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>","theme_header_position":"","post_header_is_sticky":"","is_header_overlay":""},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/302306","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/91"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=302306"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/294104"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=302306"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=302306"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=302306"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=302306"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=302306"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=302306"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}