{"id":302184,"date":"2010-12-23T12:00:00","date_gmt":"2010-12-23T17:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/the-very-first-christmas-part-1\/"},"modified":"2010-12-23T12:00:00","modified_gmt":"2010-12-23T17:00:00","slug":"the-very-first-christmas-part-1","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/the-very-first-christmas-part-1\/","title":{"rendered":"The Very First Christmas, Part 1"},"content":{"rendered":"","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Our culture increasingly blurs the lines between fact and fiction.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2010-12-23.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:","filesize":"24.79M","filesize_raw":"25996762","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2816],"tags":[5165],"podcast_series":[7778],"cwp_profile":[9003],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-302184","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-christmas","tag-holiday-ideas","podcast_series-the-very-first-christmas","cwp_profile-paul-maier","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/302184\/the-very-first-christmas-part-1","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/302184\/the-very-first-christmas-part-1","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"5frRBghWtL\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/the-very-first-christmas-part-1\/\">The Very First Christmas, Part 1<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/the-very-first-christmas-part-1\/embed\/#?secret=5frRBghWtL\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;The Very First Christmas, Part 1&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"5frRBghWtL\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2010-12-23.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2010-12-23.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<strong>Bob: <\/strong>\u00a0Sometime over the next forty-eight hours you may be reading Luke, Chapter 2 to your family or hearing it read in a midnight service at church.\u00a0 Dr. Paul Maier wants you to remember what you are hearing is history.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0 We speak of the Christmas story all the time\u2014story, story, story.\u00a0 That is great for kids, but adults start to wonder, \u201cWell, maybe it is only a story (i.e. fairy tale, a saga for kids).\u00a0 So, I think it is important for children to understand the difference between this and a fairy tale. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Thursday, December 23<sup>rd<\/sup>.\u00a0 Our host is the President of FamilyLife Dennis Rainey, and I\u2019m Bob Lepine.\u00a0 We have brought in a history professor today to give you a history lesson about the birth of Jesus.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWelcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>; thanks for joining us on the Thursday edition.\u00a0 Dennis, I\u2019ve got a trivia quiz for our listeners here a couple of days before Christmas.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 I\u2019m glad you aren\u2019t asking me, Bob. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t(laughter)\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou\u2019ve played Trivial Pursuit with me.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 With you, I have.\u00a0 It\u2019s sad. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 You know it is a weak effort.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 How would you answer this: how many wise men came to see Jesus?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Three.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>\u00a0That is how most folks would answer it.\u00a0 Yet, the Bible gives us no real indication of how many there actually were.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 I\u2019ve been too many songs.\u00a0 Is that what you are saying?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 We think there were three because there was gold, frankincense, and myrrh\u2014three gifts given.\u00a0 So, we just assumed one wise man per gift.\u00a0 Yet, the biblical record gives no names, no identity.\u00a0 We just know that the wise men came to see him.\u00a0 That is one of the things that our tradition has taught us that may not actually be a part of the Bible record.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Well, you know, we want to help our listeners, especially moms and dads, accurately represent the Christmas story.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 That\u2019s right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 In fact, we have an expert on the historicity of Christmas, Dr. Paul Maier.\u00a0 Dr. Maier, welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0 Great to be here, Dennis.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Paul is an author, historian.\u00a0 In fact, he is the author of the best-selling book, the number one fiction bestseller, <em>A Skeleton in God\u2019s Closet<\/em>.\u00a0 He is a professor of Ancient History.\u00a0 You don\u2019t look ancient, Paul.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t(laughter)\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0 As I get older, Dennis, the students are switching the adjective, they are now saying ancient professor of history.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t(laughter)\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 He is also the campus chaplain at Western Michigan University in Kalamazoo, Michigan.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0 There really is such a place.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 You\u2019ve done a lot of research on Christmas.\u00a0 How would you have answered Bob\u2019s question?\u00a0 Did Bob do a good job of answering that question there?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0 Not only did he do a good job, but it shows that he read my book <em>First Christmas<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t(laughter)\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 That\u2019s right.\u00a0 That\u2019s right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 He also exposed the host\u2019s ignorance about Christmas, but that occurs regularly on this broadcast. (laughter)\u00a0 I don\u2019t mind admitting that I don\u2019t know what I don\u2019t know.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt is interesting you\u2019ve written a book for children, though, called <em>The Very First Christmas.<\/em>\u00a0 That I must say is delightfully illustrated\u2014a wonderful book to communicate to children the reality of Christmas.\u00a0 First of all, give us an idea of where we got the word Christmas because I\u2019ve got to believe you\u2019d know where we got the word Christmas.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0 Actually, the proper name for it in church liturgy would be the Festival of the Nativity, the birth of God in Christ.\u00a0 The Christmas, Christ Mass, developed in the city of Rome about the middle of the fourth century when they finally decided to tag a date for Christmas which was December 25.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIn reality, we don\u2019t know exactly when Jesus was born.\u00a0 The best scholarly guess is that it would be the second half of 5 B.C. sometime between July and December of 5 B.C.\u00a0 The reason for that is, first of all, we shouldn\u2019t fault Jesus for being five years ahead of himself or man before His time or something like that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t(laughter)\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Right.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 I\u2019ve got to stop you right there because I\u2019ve always wanted to ask this question to somebody who knows, okay?\u00a0 Why if He was born 5 B.C. did they wait five years to turn it into A.D.?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0 The Church didn\u2019t realize the problem here until they did an exact chronology of Herod the Great.\u00a0 They found that he died about April Fool\u2019s Day\u2014that\u2019s appropriate\u2014in 4B.C.\u00a0 Now if he is going to figure in the story of the Magi, obviously, there is something wrong with the calendar.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHere is the reason:\u00a0 The Christian Church, even after it had conquered the Roman Empire after Constantine, was still using the old Roman dating until one of the bishops of Rome finally said, \u201cEnough of this!\u00a0 Why don\u2019t we instead key the calendar around the birth of Christ?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, they found sort of the equivalent of what would be a computer nerd today, somebody who loved numbers.\u00a0 A fellow named Dennis the Little, as a matter of fact, was his name.\u00a0 Dionysius Exiguus was his name in Latin.\u00a0 He gave himself that humble title, Dennis the Little.\u00a0 In the profession, we call him Denny the Dwarf.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t(laughter)\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHe was very good with numbers.\u00a0 We are amazed he came that close within five years in redoing the calendar.\u00a0 So, it was his chronological error.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 This was many years after.\u00a0 What it was\u2014this\u2014?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0 This\u2014middle of 500 A.D., middle of the sixth century.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 He was having to dig through records or try to some way come up with pinpointing the birth of Christ.\u00a0 He was off by five years.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0 Forgive him for that because this is long before the internet and information retrieval systems and what have you.\u00a0 Consider the primitive level of knowledge in those days.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 You have a burden to tell the real story of Christmas.\u00a0 You have done a lot of research.\u00a0 You wrote a book a number of years ago called <em>The First Christmas: The True and Unfamiliar Story<\/em> and that prompted you to, I would assume, write this book for children called <em>The Very First Christmas<\/em>.\u00a0 Is that right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0 Exactly.\u00a0 Concordia Publishing House suggested, \u201cWhy don\u2019t you simply boil down the information you have from your scholarly research in the first century and see if you can\u2019t do it for children?\u201d\u00a0 I had never done a children\u2019s book before.\u00a0 It was quite a challenge.\u00a0 It really, I think, came out rather well.\u00a0 I really enjoyed it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBecause we speak of the Christmas story all the time\u2014story, story, story\u2014that is great for kids; but adults start to wonder, \u201cWell, maybe it is only a story (i.e. fairy tale, a saga for kids).\u00a0 So, I think it is important for children to understand the difference between this and a fairy tale.\u00a0 That is why we call it <em>The Very First Christmas: The Real Story of What Happened<\/em>.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 You mentioned that it was also unlikely that Jesus was born in December.\u00a0 Is that right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0 It is possible He was born in December.\u00a0 All we can say is sometime between July and December of 5 B.C. would be the most accurate window of opportunity.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Why do you figure that six month period?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0 This is on the basis\u2014you\u2019ve got to go on the chronology of Jesus\u2019 life.\u00a0 Work it backwards; see exactly what\u2019s happening in terms of who the governors were at the time.\u00a0 It would take the next half an hour to\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Explain that.\u00a0 All right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0 Just trust me on this one.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t(laughter)\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 I will.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 One thing that I heard you mention before we came on the air is that you have a heart to help Christians understand that their faith is rooted in history even outside the biblical history.\u00a0 Now we don\u2019t want to minimize the Holy Scriptures, the inspired Word of God; but you\u2019ve done research.\u00a0 You\u2019ve found that all the way back to the beginning the story of Christmas is rooted in secular history.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0 It certainly is.\u00a0 Do you notice how Luke begins the Christmas story?\u00a0 He doesn\u2019t begin with anybody you\u2019ve ever seen on a Christmas card: no holy family, no shepherds, no magi, but Caesar Augustus.\u00a0 Now there is a pretty \u2018un-Christmassy\u2019 figure.\u00a0 Have any of you received a Christmas card with a bust of Augustus on it?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 No.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 No.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0 A little holly around the base, \u201cSeason\u2019s Greetings from the Palace,\u201d or a little slogan inside \u201cRemember it happened under my administration.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t(laughter)\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 I might add I\u2019m glad I haven\u2019t received one. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t(laughter)\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 I don\u2019t think there are any publishers are going to jump on that line in Christmas cards.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 I don\u2019t think so.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0 No. I think it would bomb.\u00a0 It is Luke\u2019s idea to point out that this is a narrative which is not a fairy tale.\u00a0 This really happened.\u00a0 Everybody knew about the great Augustus.\u00a0 He was the founder of the Roman Empire, probably the greatest of all the Caesars to follow him.\u00a0 Everybody knew about the census that he took.\u00a0 This is Luke\u2019s beautiful way of working this account back into the fund of general knowledge.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI am delighted to keep using Luke\u2019s approach in my particular scholarship.\u00a0 What I have been doing through the years is to try to match up the evidence that we have of an extra biblical source, nature, and see how it comports then with the biblical record.\u00a0 Let me tell you the affirmation ratio is outstanding.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat I try to do is pursue three avenues back into the ancient world.\u00a0 One avenue is called geography.\u00a0 Let\u2019s even point out that the stage in which all this happened is authentic.\u00a0 Many religious systems today don\u2019t even have a solid stage.\u00a0 They just begin with some sort of nirvana, especially the made in America religions are the worst of all in that respect.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThen, the second lane in this three lane highway is the evidence that we have from secular history.\u00a0 The third lane is archaeology: the smoking gun, the hard evidence we have from the ancient world.\u00a0 So, by pursuing those three highway lanes, you might say, have tried to get back into the first century to see exactly how this works.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSome Christians don\u2019t understand that they say \u201cWell, isn\u2019t the Bible enough?\u201d and so forth.\u00a0 Yes, but listen when you are dealing in the great secular world with the great unwashed out there, you can\u2019t begin by waving the Bible at these people.\u00a0 You begin where they are like Luke did in the secular world and see how beautifully the secular evidence from antiquity and see how beautifully this works back into the biblical record.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 So, what you are saying, then, is that for the mom and dad who sits down on Christmas Eve or Christmas morning to tell the Christmas story and when that doubt comes that this story is a myth, they need to know that this story is rooted in secular history.\u00a0 It is proclaimed in the Bible as the truth.\u00a0 It is the truth.\u00a0 This happened; and therefore, our faith can stand.\u00a0 Right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0 Exactly, Dennis.\u00a0 In fact, that is so good I wish you could have written the copy in the flyleaf: \u201cTo be used on Christmas Eve or Christmas morning to point out that this is more than a story.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 There is so much fantasy around Christmas, I think\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0 Of course.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 And so many memories.\u00a0 Those aren\u2019t bad, I don\u2019t think.\u00a0 Really, our family enjoys a little bit of myth around Christmas.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 You sing \u201cWe Three Kings of Orient are\u2026.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t(laughter)\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0 There we go.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 You are not going to let me forget that are you, Bob.\u00a0 I\u2019m never playing Trivial Pursuit with you again.\u00a0 It is important that we know that our faith is not a myth.\u00a0 We have a God who is there.\u00a0 We have the scriptures that proclaim this story.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen we do sit down on Christmas Eve, we need to strip away that fantasy, that myth.\u00a0 We need to embrace the Lord Jesus Christ who was born, who lived, who died, who rose again, and who is seated at the right hand of the Father to offer us eternal life.\u00a0 This is the greatest story that has ever been told.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0 That is absolutely correct.\u00a0 The greatest miracle of all is the incarnation.\u00a0 In the sense of right at the start the Christmas event, God crossed the cosmic divide to become a baby.\u00a0 This is so magnificent!\u00a0 Of course, what I tried to do in <em>The Very First Christmas<\/em> is to see how this would affect the mind of a bright kiddo who has not been able to attend Sunday school regularly and how he would react.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt is different with children who have been brought up in the church; they\u2019ve heard this since time in memorial.\u00a0 How would a bright child somewhere on the Mountain West where there have not been Sunday school services available react when his mother would finally present the Good News to him about the nativity.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, I opened the book in which the child says, \u201cEnough of the fairy tales.\u00a0 I don\u2019t want to hear anymore unless they really happened.\u201d\u00a0 That is how I try to work into the account; so, that the child realizes you call it the Christmas story but it is also the Christmas history.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Let me ask you: apart from the three kings, we\u2019ve talked about them, what are some of the other big misconceptions that we carry through?\u00a0 Some of the traditions that we hold that may not be so about Christmas.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0 For instance, the commonest would be the cr\u00e8che under the Christmas tree.\u00a0 In which, we have, by the way, the shepherds and the magi worshipping together, you recall.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0 That is impossible, of course, because they have to be separated by at least forty-one days. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0 The shepherds came first.\u00a0 The magi came later at a time when the holy family was already living in a house in Bethlehem.\u00a0 They\u2019re no longer in a cave.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat is the second misconception.\u00a0 Everybody thinks Jesus was born in the stable.\u00a0 Well, yes.\u00a0 It depends on how you define a stable.\u00a0 All the New Testament says is that Jesus was born where there was a manger, now that is a feeding trough.\u00a0 Usually, you don\u2019t find that in your dining room.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> That\u2019s right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0 It would be in a stable type of situation.\u00a0 We have the evidence from one of the early church fathers, Justin Martyr, that Jesus was born in a cave, a cavern that was used as a stable.\u00a0 Now this doesn\u2019t mean that parents should suddenly sweep away the cr\u00e8ches.\u00a0 Of course, we can continue to use those; but in terms of misconceptions, it was actually a cave.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThere were several of these great caves in Bethlehem to this day.\u00a0 One of which is supposedly the cave the Nativity over which the great Church of the Nativity was built.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 And the shepherds arrived almost immediately?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0 They were the first visitors.\u00a0 That is right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 It could have been the first night; it could have been three nights later.\u00a0 We\u2019re not sure, right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0 Something like that.\u00a0 I\u2019d say that is a reasonable time frame.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 But you said that it has got to be forty-one days between then and when the magi might have come.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\u00a0 The reason for that is, of course, Luke tells us that Jesus was circumcised seventh day.\u00a0 Then, he went to be presented at the temple which was forty days after birth.\u00a0 Obviously, if Herod is out to get him, he is not going to go to the Temple area in Jerusalem, right next to Herod\u2019s palace.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIn terms of the chronology of the Nativity, you have to have at least forty days elapse, not two years.\u00a0 I think that a lot of misconceptions there.\u00a0 Here you have Joseph and Mary away from their home in Nazareth.\u00a0 What\u2014staying in a motel for two years?\u00a0 How expensive is that? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t(laughter) \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tForget it!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 He\u2019s a carpenter, right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\u00a0 Right.\u00a0\u00a0 These things happen rather quickly.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 I\u2019m glad that you cleared that one up because I had the misconception that it took them two years to get there.\u00a0 I don\u2019t know where that was\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0 That is pretty slow travel.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Yes.\u00a0 That they traveled a long distance as magi from a far away land and didn\u2019t arrive for a number of months.\u00a0 Tell us what scholars know about Mary.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0 We wish we knew more, of course, Dennis.\u00a0 No question about that.\u00a0 What you have in the case of the Gospels is the headline news about Jesus compacted as much a possible because each Gospel is the size of one scroll.\u00a0 You just couldn\u2019t afford multi-scroll works unless you were very wealthy, and they wanted to get the Good News out.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThis is why we don\u2019t have many details on Jesus\u2019 youth or other aspects of the Great Story.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAlso, Mary\u2019s role: we wish we had more information.\u00a0 All we know is that she did come from Nazareth.\u00a0 There is an early apocryphal Gospel called the Gospel of James.\u00a0 It is not canonical that says that her parents were Anna, the mother, and Joachim, the father.\u00a0 There\u2019s a local tradition that the Annunciation took place by Gabriel at the well in Nazareth which is possible because women were the great water carriers in those days.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNazareth today the thrilling thing, you can go there and you can see that very well still bubbling away.\u00a0 It is understand the apse of the Church of the Eastern Orthodox.\u00a0 Church of the Annunciation, it is called.\u00a0 There are some physical features like that, that never change.\u00a0 Now whether or not the Annunciation happened there we can\u2019t be sure.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 About how old was she, do you know?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0 Shortly after puberty, the Jewish girls would marry.\u00a0 The fellows would have to wait and build a nest egg first.\u00a0 There is no question that Joseph was older than Mary.\u00a0 Some say by as much as eight, ten years.\u00a0 We\u2019re not quite sure.\u00a0 Mary could have been as a fourteen, fifteen year old.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 She was betrothed to Joseph, but she was not married yet.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0 Betrothed but not married.\u00a0 That\u2019s right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis<\/strong>:\u00a0 Explain to our listeners what that means.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0 In conservative Galilee, betrothal was almost the equivalent of marriage not that the couple could indulge; but if Joseph would have died, she would have been his legal widow, for example, after betrothal.\u00a0 They could not break that except for a bill of divorce.\u00a0 The engagement, if you please, was stronger than we have engagements today.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Mary\u2019s pregnancy during that period had ramifications, didn\u2019t it?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0 That was adulterous except for the Divine circumstances of the Incarnation.\u00a0 Joseph would have had the right at that point to have her stoned to death.\u00a0 He being a just man, however, as Matthew tells us, didn\u2019t do that.\u00a0 Was determined to simply quash this thing quietly which is noble on his part and the proper thing to, I think, for somebody with ethics.\u00a0 Then, of course, we have the momentous information given to him: that is a very special baby on the way.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Now the whole issue of the census was this something that was common in Roman times or was this the first time there had ever been a census of the ancient world?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0 The census was something that Augustus was very sensitive about because he was concerned about the low birth rate among Roman citizens.\u00a0 This comes right after the terrible civil war period.\u00a0 For that reason, you have the birth rate dropping.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOne day he stalks into the Roman Forum and does a quick gallop poll, if you please, of why the birth rate was dropping.\u00a0 He gathered all the men to one end of the forum and separated the husbands from the unmarried bachelors.\u00a0 A whole horde of bachelors were there, and a few husbands go away.\u00a0 Then, he really lectures them on why they weren\u2019t fulfilling the job of men which was to get married and so on.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>\u00a0Let me stop you there because we happen to have that lecture right here.\u00a0 Bob doesn\u2019t have this.\u00a0 I have this.\u00a0 I may not know about the three kings, but I read about\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 You know the lecture.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 I read about this lecture in the book.\u00a0 I actually read this to Barbara.\u00a0 This is a great message.\u00a0 I mean, picture this occurring.\u00a0 They had a crisis in Rome.\u00a0 Rome was shrinking in size because men were not being men.\u00a0 He separates the bachelors and the married men, and gives them this talk.\u00a0 Listen to this.\u00a0 This is in Dr. Maier\u2019s <em>First Christmas<\/em> book.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0 That book is now a part of a trilogy which is called <em>In the Fullness of Time<\/em>.\u00a0 It is no longer available individually.\u00a0 It is called <em>In the Fullness of Time: A Historian Looks at Christmas, Easter, and the Early Church<\/em>.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Okay.\u00a0 Augustus laid it on the line.\u00a0 Here is what he said, \u201cWhat shall I call you?\u00a0 Men? But aren\u2019t you fulfilling the duties of men?\u00a0 Citizens?\u00a0 But for all your efforts the city is perishing.\u00a0 Romans?\u00a0 But you are in the process of blotting out this name all together.\u00a0 What humanity would be left if all the rest of mankind should do what you are doing?\u00a0 You are committing murder in your not fathering in the first place those who ought to be your descendents.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0 How do you like that for logic?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t(laughter)\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 We\u2019re laughing about this, but his guy was a leader.\u00a0 He called the men together; and he placed responsibility on them to say, \u201cGet married, have children, take care of them, and therefore, strengthen the nation.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0 Absolutely.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 It had to be the only time in history when a leader got done and said, \u201cNow you are all dismissed to go home.\u201d\u00a0 And the men said, \u201cOkay.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t(laughter)\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 That\u2019s exactly right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 The census occurred out of this to try to figure out what the population patterns looked like?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0 Indeed.\u00a0 Augustus himself took three censuses.\u00a0 He was very, very proud of them.\u00a0 So, proud as a matter of fact, when he died, he put in front of his mausoleum on a great, bronze tablet the thirty-eight things he wished most to be remembered for.\u00a0 Point number eight was \u201cI took a census of the empire three times.\u201d\u00a0 Probably that middle census about 8 B.C., is the one that finally got organized in far off Palestine around two or three years later.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Joseph and Mary had to go to Bethlehem because he was from the line of David.\u00a0 Is that right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul: <\/strong>\u00a0That has been doubted, of course, by some critics; except we have census documents from up the Nile in Egypt in which a person is supposed to return to his home to register for the house by house census.\u00a0 Perfect.\u00a0 Perfect agreement with Luke, Chapter 2.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Paul, you have done a masterful job of giving us all some facts to root our Christmas story in this Christmas as we set around the Christmas tree.\u00a0 Bob, I\u2019m going to have fun this Christmas telling the Christmas story with some new vigor.\u00a0 Knowing that our faith and the Christmas story is the truth.\u00a0 I\u2019ve known that in the past.\u00a0 I believe that and embrace that.\u00a0 It is just wonderful that you help parents tell the story, the real story of Christmas, to their children.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul: <\/strong>\u00a0Thank you, Dennis.\u00a0 I appreciate it, Bob.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 We are also hoping that parents are getting out of the closet or maybe they\u2019ve had it out of the closet for awhile now their <em>What God Wants for Christmas<\/em> nativity scene.\u00a0 They can use that as a part of the way to tell the story of the birth of Jesus to their children this year at Christmas.\u00a0 It is one of the resources that we\u2019ve created here at FamilyLife to try to help families pass on the truth of God\u2019s word to their children and their grandchildren.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to take just a minute here, Dennis, and say thanks to those listeners who help support the ministry who make this daily radio program possible, who make everything we do here at FamilyLife possible.\u00a0 More than sixty-five percent of the funds we need to operate come from donations from listeners just like you.\u00a0 During the month of December, that is when more than forty percent of our donations come in as a ministry.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIn a very real sense what happens this month in terms of donations will set the tone for what next year will look like for us as a ministry.\u00a0 Again, thanks to those of you have helped support the ministry in the past.\u00a0 Particularly those of you who this month have been helping us take advantage of this matching gift opportunity.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe have had some friends of the ministry who\u2019ve come to us and built a matching fund that is now up a little over three million dollars in recent days that number has increased.\u00a0 We\u2019re still hoping to hear from listeners who will help us take advantage of these matching gift funds.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf you can make a year-end donation to support <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, we would appreciate that.\u00a0 You can do it online at FamilyLifeToday.com or you can call us and make your donation over the phone at 1-800-FL-TODAY.\u00a0 Let me just say thanks in advance for whatever you are able to do in terms of financial support.\u00a0 Thanks for praying for us here as well.\u00a0 We appreciate your prayer support for this ministry.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe hope you can join us back tomorrow on Christmas Eve when we are going to continue to talk about the real story of Christmas with our guest Dr. Paul Maier.\u00a0 Hope you can be here.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team.\u00a0 On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine.\u00a0 We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHelp for today.\u00a0 Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t2010 Copyright \u00a9 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>www.FamilyLife.com<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>"],"_seopress_titles_title":[""],"_seopress_titles_desc":[""],"_seopress_robots_index":[""],"duration":["00:"],"show_notes":[""],"_thumbnail_id":["294104"],"filesize":["24.79M"],"filesize_raw":["25996762"],"_uag_css_file_name":["uag-css-302184.css"],"_uag_js_file_name":["uag-js-302184.js"],"_uag_page_assets":["a:9:{s:3:\"css\";s:82560:\".wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-top svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-top .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-bottom svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-bottom .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f 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culture increasingly blurs the lines between fact and fiction.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2010-12-23.pdf","transcript_content":"<strong>Bob: <\/strong>\u00a0Sometime over the next forty-eight hours you may be reading Luke, Chapter 2 to your family or hearing it read in a midnight service at church.\u00a0 Dr. Paul Maier wants you to remember what you are hearing is history.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0 We speak of the Christmas story all the time\u2014story, story, story.\u00a0 That is great for kids, but adults start to wonder, \u201cWell, maybe it is only a story (i.e. fairy tale, a saga for kids).\u00a0 So, I think it is important for children to understand the difference between this and a fairy tale. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Thursday, December 23<sup>rd<\/sup>.\u00a0 Our host is the President of FamilyLife Dennis Rainey, and I\u2019m Bob Lepine.\u00a0 We have brought in a history professor today to give you a history lesson about the birth of Jesus.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWelcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>; thanks for joining us on the Thursday edition.\u00a0 Dennis, I\u2019ve got a trivia quiz for our listeners here a couple of days before Christmas.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 I\u2019m glad you aren\u2019t asking me, Bob. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t(laughter)\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou\u2019ve played Trivial Pursuit with me.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 With you, I have.\u00a0 It\u2019s sad. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 You know it is a weak effort.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 How would you answer this: how many wise men came to see Jesus?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Three.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>\u00a0That is how most folks would answer it.\u00a0 Yet, the Bible gives us no real indication of how many there actually were.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 I\u2019ve been too many songs.\u00a0 Is that what you are saying?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 We think there were three because there was gold, frankincense, and myrrh\u2014three gifts given.\u00a0 So, we just assumed one wise man per gift.\u00a0 Yet, the biblical record gives no names, no identity.\u00a0 We just know that the wise men came to see him.\u00a0 That is one of the things that our tradition has taught us that may not actually be a part of the Bible record.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Well, you know, we want to help our listeners, especially moms and dads, accurately represent the Christmas story.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 That\u2019s right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 In fact, we have an expert on the historicity of Christmas, Dr. Paul Maier.\u00a0 Dr. Maier, welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0 Great to be here, Dennis.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Paul is an author, historian.\u00a0 In fact, he is the author of the best-selling book, the number one fiction bestseller, <em>A Skeleton in God\u2019s Closet<\/em>.\u00a0 He is a professor of Ancient History.\u00a0 You don\u2019t look ancient, Paul.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t(laughter)\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0 As I get older, Dennis, the students are switching the adjective, they are now saying ancient professor of history.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t(laughter)\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 He is also the campus chaplain at Western Michigan University in Kalamazoo, Michigan.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0 There really is such a place.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 You\u2019ve done a lot of research on Christmas.\u00a0 How would you have answered Bob\u2019s question?\u00a0 Did Bob do a good job of answering that question there?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0 Not only did he do a good job, but it shows that he read my book <em>First Christmas<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t(laughter)\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 That\u2019s right.\u00a0 That\u2019s right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 He also exposed the host\u2019s ignorance about Christmas, but that occurs regularly on this broadcast. (laughter)\u00a0 I don\u2019t mind admitting that I don\u2019t know what I don\u2019t know.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt is interesting you\u2019ve written a book for children, though, called <em>The Very First Christmas.<\/em>\u00a0 That I must say is delightfully illustrated\u2014a wonderful book to communicate to children the reality of Christmas.\u00a0 First of all, give us an idea of where we got the word Christmas because I\u2019ve got to believe you\u2019d know where we got the word Christmas.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0 Actually, the proper name for it in church liturgy would be the Festival of the Nativity, the birth of God in Christ.\u00a0 The Christmas, Christ Mass, developed in the city of Rome about the middle of the fourth century when they finally decided to tag a date for Christmas which was December 25.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIn reality, we don\u2019t know exactly when Jesus was born.\u00a0 The best scholarly guess is that it would be the second half of 5 B.C. sometime between July and December of 5 B.C.\u00a0 The reason for that is, first of all, we shouldn\u2019t fault Jesus for being five years ahead of himself or man before His time or something like that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t(laughter)\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Right.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 I\u2019ve got to stop you right there because I\u2019ve always wanted to ask this question to somebody who knows, okay?\u00a0 Why if He was born 5 B.C. did they wait five years to turn it into A.D.?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0 The Church didn\u2019t realize the problem here until they did an exact chronology of Herod the Great.\u00a0 They found that he died about April Fool\u2019s Day\u2014that\u2019s appropriate\u2014in 4B.C.\u00a0 Now if he is going to figure in the story of the Magi, obviously, there is something wrong with the calendar.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHere is the reason:\u00a0 The Christian Church, even after it had conquered the Roman Empire after Constantine, was still using the old Roman dating until one of the bishops of Rome finally said, \u201cEnough of this!\u00a0 Why don\u2019t we instead key the calendar around the birth of Christ?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, they found sort of the equivalent of what would be a computer nerd today, somebody who loved numbers.\u00a0 A fellow named Dennis the Little, as a matter of fact, was his name.\u00a0 Dionysius Exiguus was his name in Latin.\u00a0 He gave himself that humble title, Dennis the Little.\u00a0 In the profession, we call him Denny the Dwarf.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t(laughter)\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHe was very good with numbers.\u00a0 We are amazed he came that close within five years in redoing the calendar.\u00a0 So, it was his chronological error.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 This was many years after.\u00a0 What it was\u2014this\u2014?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0 This\u2014middle of 500 A.D., middle of the sixth century.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 He was having to dig through records or try to some way come up with pinpointing the birth of Christ.\u00a0 He was off by five years.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0 Forgive him for that because this is long before the internet and information retrieval systems and what have you.\u00a0 Consider the primitive level of knowledge in those days.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 You have a burden to tell the real story of Christmas.\u00a0 You have done a lot of research.\u00a0 You wrote a book a number of years ago called <em>The First Christmas: The True and Unfamiliar Story<\/em> and that prompted you to, I would assume, write this book for children called <em>The Very First Christmas<\/em>.\u00a0 Is that right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0 Exactly.\u00a0 Concordia Publishing House suggested, \u201cWhy don\u2019t you simply boil down the information you have from your scholarly research in the first century and see if you can\u2019t do it for children?\u201d\u00a0 I had never done a children\u2019s book before.\u00a0 It was quite a challenge.\u00a0 It really, I think, came out rather well.\u00a0 I really enjoyed it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBecause we speak of the Christmas story all the time\u2014story, story, story\u2014that is great for kids; but adults start to wonder, \u201cWell, maybe it is only a story (i.e. fairy tale, a saga for kids).\u00a0 So, I think it is important for children to understand the difference between this and a fairy tale.\u00a0 That is why we call it <em>The Very First Christmas: The Real Story of What Happened<\/em>.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 You mentioned that it was also unlikely that Jesus was born in December.\u00a0 Is that right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0 It is possible He was born in December.\u00a0 All we can say is sometime between July and December of 5 B.C. would be the most accurate window of opportunity.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Why do you figure that six month period?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0 This is on the basis\u2014you\u2019ve got to go on the chronology of Jesus\u2019 life.\u00a0 Work it backwards; see exactly what\u2019s happening in terms of who the governors were at the time.\u00a0 It would take the next half an hour to\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Explain that.\u00a0 All right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0 Just trust me on this one.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t(laughter)\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 I will.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 One thing that I heard you mention before we came on the air is that you have a heart to help Christians understand that their faith is rooted in history even outside the biblical history.\u00a0 Now we don\u2019t want to minimize the Holy Scriptures, the inspired Word of God; but you\u2019ve done research.\u00a0 You\u2019ve found that all the way back to the beginning the story of Christmas is rooted in secular history.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0 It certainly is.\u00a0 Do you notice how Luke begins the Christmas story?\u00a0 He doesn\u2019t begin with anybody you\u2019ve ever seen on a Christmas card: no holy family, no shepherds, no magi, but Caesar Augustus.\u00a0 Now there is a pretty \u2018un-Christmassy\u2019 figure.\u00a0 Have any of you received a Christmas card with a bust of Augustus on it?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 No.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 No.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0 A little holly around the base, \u201cSeason\u2019s Greetings from the Palace,\u201d or a little slogan inside \u201cRemember it happened under my administration.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t(laughter)\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 I might add I\u2019m glad I haven\u2019t received one. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t(laughter)\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 I don\u2019t think there are any publishers are going to jump on that line in Christmas cards.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 I don\u2019t think so.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0 No. I think it would bomb.\u00a0 It is Luke\u2019s idea to point out that this is a narrative which is not a fairy tale.\u00a0 This really happened.\u00a0 Everybody knew about the great Augustus.\u00a0 He was the founder of the Roman Empire, probably the greatest of all the Caesars to follow him.\u00a0 Everybody knew about the census that he took.\u00a0 This is Luke\u2019s beautiful way of working this account back into the fund of general knowledge.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI am delighted to keep using Luke\u2019s approach in my particular scholarship.\u00a0 What I have been doing through the years is to try to match up the evidence that we have of an extra biblical source, nature, and see how it comports then with the biblical record.\u00a0 Let me tell you the affirmation ratio is outstanding.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat I try to do is pursue three avenues back into the ancient world.\u00a0 One avenue is called geography.\u00a0 Let\u2019s even point out that the stage in which all this happened is authentic.\u00a0 Many religious systems today don\u2019t even have a solid stage.\u00a0 They just begin with some sort of nirvana, especially the made in America religions are the worst of all in that respect.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThen, the second lane in this three lane highway is the evidence that we have from secular history.\u00a0 The third lane is archaeology: the smoking gun, the hard evidence we have from the ancient world.\u00a0 So, by pursuing those three highway lanes, you might say, have tried to get back into the first century to see exactly how this works.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSome Christians don\u2019t understand that they say \u201cWell, isn\u2019t the Bible enough?\u201d and so forth.\u00a0 Yes, but listen when you are dealing in the great secular world with the great unwashed out there, you can\u2019t begin by waving the Bible at these people.\u00a0 You begin where they are like Luke did in the secular world and see how beautifully the secular evidence from antiquity and see how beautifully this works back into the biblical record.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 So, what you are saying, then, is that for the mom and dad who sits down on Christmas Eve or Christmas morning to tell the Christmas story and when that doubt comes that this story is a myth, they need to know that this story is rooted in secular history.\u00a0 It is proclaimed in the Bible as the truth.\u00a0 It is the truth.\u00a0 This happened; and therefore, our faith can stand.\u00a0 Right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0 Exactly, Dennis.\u00a0 In fact, that is so good I wish you could have written the copy in the flyleaf: \u201cTo be used on Christmas Eve or Christmas morning to point out that this is more than a story.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 There is so much fantasy around Christmas, I think\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0 Of course.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 And so many memories.\u00a0 Those aren\u2019t bad, I don\u2019t think.\u00a0 Really, our family enjoys a little bit of myth around Christmas.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 You sing \u201cWe Three Kings of Orient are\u2026.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t(laughter)\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0 There we go.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 You are not going to let me forget that are you, Bob.\u00a0 I\u2019m never playing Trivial Pursuit with you again.\u00a0 It is important that we know that our faith is not a myth.\u00a0 We have a God who is there.\u00a0 We have the scriptures that proclaim this story.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen we do sit down on Christmas Eve, we need to strip away that fantasy, that myth.\u00a0 We need to embrace the Lord Jesus Christ who was born, who lived, who died, who rose again, and who is seated at the right hand of the Father to offer us eternal life.\u00a0 This is the greatest story that has ever been told.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0 That is absolutely correct.\u00a0 The greatest miracle of all is the incarnation.\u00a0 In the sense of right at the start the Christmas event, God crossed the cosmic divide to become a baby.\u00a0 This is so magnificent!\u00a0 Of course, what I tried to do in <em>The Very First Christmas<\/em> is to see how this would affect the mind of a bright kiddo who has not been able to attend Sunday school regularly and how he would react.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt is different with children who have been brought up in the church; they\u2019ve heard this since time in memorial.\u00a0 How would a bright child somewhere on the Mountain West where there have not been Sunday school services available react when his mother would finally present the Good News to him about the nativity.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, I opened the book in which the child says, \u201cEnough of the fairy tales.\u00a0 I don\u2019t want to hear anymore unless they really happened.\u201d\u00a0 That is how I try to work into the account; so, that the child realizes you call it the Christmas story but it is also the Christmas history.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Let me ask you: apart from the three kings, we\u2019ve talked about them, what are some of the other big misconceptions that we carry through?\u00a0 Some of the traditions that we hold that may not be so about Christmas.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0 For instance, the commonest would be the cr\u00e8che under the Christmas tree.\u00a0 In which, we have, by the way, the shepherds and the magi worshipping together, you recall.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0 That is impossible, of course, because they have to be separated by at least forty-one days. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0 The shepherds came first.\u00a0 The magi came later at a time when the holy family was already living in a house in Bethlehem.\u00a0 They\u2019re no longer in a cave.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat is the second misconception.\u00a0 Everybody thinks Jesus was born in the stable.\u00a0 Well, yes.\u00a0 It depends on how you define a stable.\u00a0 All the New Testament says is that Jesus was born where there was a manger, now that is a feeding trough.\u00a0 Usually, you don\u2019t find that in your dining room.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> That\u2019s right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0 It would be in a stable type of situation.\u00a0 We have the evidence from one of the early church fathers, Justin Martyr, that Jesus was born in a cave, a cavern that was used as a stable.\u00a0 Now this doesn\u2019t mean that parents should suddenly sweep away the cr\u00e8ches.\u00a0 Of course, we can continue to use those; but in terms of misconceptions, it was actually a cave.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThere were several of these great caves in Bethlehem to this day.\u00a0 One of which is supposedly the cave the Nativity over which the great Church of the Nativity was built.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 And the shepherds arrived almost immediately?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0 They were the first visitors.\u00a0 That is right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 It could have been the first night; it could have been three nights later.\u00a0 We\u2019re not sure, right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0 Something like that.\u00a0 I\u2019d say that is a reasonable time frame.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 But you said that it has got to be forty-one days between then and when the magi might have come.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\u00a0 The reason for that is, of course, Luke tells us that Jesus was circumcised seventh day.\u00a0 Then, he went to be presented at the temple which was forty days after birth.\u00a0 Obviously, if Herod is out to get him, he is not going to go to the Temple area in Jerusalem, right next to Herod\u2019s palace.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIn terms of the chronology of the Nativity, you have to have at least forty days elapse, not two years.\u00a0 I think that a lot of misconceptions there.\u00a0 Here you have Joseph and Mary away from their home in Nazareth.\u00a0 What\u2014staying in a motel for two years?\u00a0 How expensive is that? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t(laughter) \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tForget it!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 He\u2019s a carpenter, right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\u00a0 Right.\u00a0\u00a0 These things happen rather quickly.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 I\u2019m glad that you cleared that one up because I had the misconception that it took them two years to get there.\u00a0 I don\u2019t know where that was\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0 That is pretty slow travel.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Yes.\u00a0 That they traveled a long distance as magi from a far away land and didn\u2019t arrive for a number of months.\u00a0 Tell us what scholars know about Mary.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0 We wish we knew more, of course, Dennis.\u00a0 No question about that.\u00a0 What you have in the case of the Gospels is the headline news about Jesus compacted as much a possible because each Gospel is the size of one scroll.\u00a0 You just couldn\u2019t afford multi-scroll works unless you were very wealthy, and they wanted to get the Good News out.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThis is why we don\u2019t have many details on Jesus\u2019 youth or other aspects of the Great Story.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAlso, Mary\u2019s role: we wish we had more information.\u00a0 All we know is that she did come from Nazareth.\u00a0 There is an early apocryphal Gospel called the Gospel of James.\u00a0 It is not canonical that says that her parents were Anna, the mother, and Joachim, the father.\u00a0 There\u2019s a local tradition that the Annunciation took place by Gabriel at the well in Nazareth which is possible because women were the great water carriers in those days.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNazareth today the thrilling thing, you can go there and you can see that very well still bubbling away.\u00a0 It is understand the apse of the Church of the Eastern Orthodox.\u00a0 Church of the Annunciation, it is called.\u00a0 There are some physical features like that, that never change.\u00a0 Now whether or not the Annunciation happened there we can\u2019t be sure.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 About how old was she, do you know?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0 Shortly after puberty, the Jewish girls would marry.\u00a0 The fellows would have to wait and build a nest egg first.\u00a0 There is no question that Joseph was older than Mary.\u00a0 Some say by as much as eight, ten years.\u00a0 We\u2019re not quite sure.\u00a0 Mary could have been as a fourteen, fifteen year old.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 She was betrothed to Joseph, but she was not married yet.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0 Betrothed but not married.\u00a0 That\u2019s right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis<\/strong>:\u00a0 Explain to our listeners what that means.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0 In conservative Galilee, betrothal was almost the equivalent of marriage not that the couple could indulge; but if Joseph would have died, she would have been his legal widow, for example, after betrothal.\u00a0 They could not break that except for a bill of divorce.\u00a0 The engagement, if you please, was stronger than we have engagements today.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Mary\u2019s pregnancy during that period had ramifications, didn\u2019t it?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0 That was adulterous except for the Divine circumstances of the Incarnation.\u00a0 Joseph would have had the right at that point to have her stoned to death.\u00a0 He being a just man, however, as Matthew tells us, didn\u2019t do that.\u00a0 Was determined to simply quash this thing quietly which is noble on his part and the proper thing to, I think, for somebody with ethics.\u00a0 Then, of course, we have the momentous information given to him: that is a very special baby on the way.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Now the whole issue of the census was this something that was common in Roman times or was this the first time there had ever been a census of the ancient world?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0 The census was something that Augustus was very sensitive about because he was concerned about the low birth rate among Roman citizens.\u00a0 This comes right after the terrible civil war period.\u00a0 For that reason, you have the birth rate dropping.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOne day he stalks into the Roman Forum and does a quick gallop poll, if you please, of why the birth rate was dropping.\u00a0 He gathered all the men to one end of the forum and separated the husbands from the unmarried bachelors.\u00a0 A whole horde of bachelors were there, and a few husbands go away.\u00a0 Then, he really lectures them on why they weren\u2019t fulfilling the job of men which was to get married and so on.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>\u00a0Let me stop you there because we happen to have that lecture right here.\u00a0 Bob doesn\u2019t have this.\u00a0 I have this.\u00a0 I may not know about the three kings, but I read about\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 You know the lecture.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 I read about this lecture in the book.\u00a0 I actually read this to Barbara.\u00a0 This is a great message.\u00a0 I mean, picture this occurring.\u00a0 They had a crisis in Rome.\u00a0 Rome was shrinking in size because men were not being men.\u00a0 He separates the bachelors and the married men, and gives them this talk.\u00a0 Listen to this.\u00a0 This is in Dr. Maier\u2019s <em>First Christmas<\/em> book.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0 That book is now a part of a trilogy which is called <em>In the Fullness of Time<\/em>.\u00a0 It is no longer available individually.\u00a0 It is called <em>In the Fullness of Time: A Historian Looks at Christmas, Easter, and the Early Church<\/em>.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Okay.\u00a0 Augustus laid it on the line.\u00a0 Here is what he said, \u201cWhat shall I call you?\u00a0 Men? But aren\u2019t you fulfilling the duties of men?\u00a0 Citizens?\u00a0 But for all your efforts the city is perishing.\u00a0 Romans?\u00a0 But you are in the process of blotting out this name all together.\u00a0 What humanity would be left if all the rest of mankind should do what you are doing?\u00a0 You are committing murder in your not fathering in the first place those who ought to be your descendents.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0 How do you like that for logic?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t(laughter)\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 We\u2019re laughing about this, but his guy was a leader.\u00a0 He called the men together; and he placed responsibility on them to say, \u201cGet married, have children, take care of them, and therefore, strengthen the nation.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0 Absolutely.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 It had to be the only time in history when a leader got done and said, \u201cNow you are all dismissed to go home.\u201d\u00a0 And the men said, \u201cOkay.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t(laughter)\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 That\u2019s exactly right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 The census occurred out of this to try to figure out what the population patterns looked like?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0 Indeed.\u00a0 Augustus himself took three censuses.\u00a0 He was very, very proud of them.\u00a0 So, proud as a matter of fact, when he died, he put in front of his mausoleum on a great, bronze tablet the thirty-eight things he wished most to be remembered for.\u00a0 Point number eight was \u201cI took a census of the empire three times.\u201d\u00a0 Probably that middle census about 8 B.C., is the one that finally got organized in far off Palestine around two or three years later.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Joseph and Mary had to go to Bethlehem because he was from the line of David.\u00a0 Is that right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul: <\/strong>\u00a0That has been doubted, of course, by some critics; except we have census documents from up the Nile in Egypt in which a person is supposed to return to his home to register for the house by house census.\u00a0 Perfect.\u00a0 Perfect agreement with Luke, Chapter 2.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Paul, you have done a masterful job of giving us all some facts to root our Christmas story in this Christmas as we set around the Christmas tree.\u00a0 Bob, I\u2019m going to have fun this Christmas telling the Christmas story with some new vigor.\u00a0 Knowing that our faith and the Christmas story is the truth.\u00a0 I\u2019ve known that in the past.\u00a0 I believe that and embrace that.\u00a0 It is just wonderful that you help parents tell the story, the real story of Christmas, to their children.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Paul: <\/strong>\u00a0Thank you, Dennis.\u00a0 I appreciate it, Bob.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 We are also hoping that parents are getting out of the closet or maybe they\u2019ve had it out of the closet for awhile now their <em>What God Wants for Christmas<\/em> nativity scene.\u00a0 They can use that as a part of the way to tell the story of the birth of Jesus to their children this year at Christmas.\u00a0 It is one of the resources that we\u2019ve created here at FamilyLife to try to help families pass on the truth of God\u2019s word to their children and their grandchildren.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to take just a minute here, Dennis, and say thanks to those listeners who help support the ministry who make this daily radio program possible, who make everything we do here at FamilyLife possible.\u00a0 More than sixty-five percent of the funds we need to operate come from donations from listeners just like you.\u00a0 During the month of December, that is when more than forty percent of our donations come in as a ministry.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIn a very real sense what happens this month in terms of donations will set the tone for what next year will look like for us as a ministry.\u00a0 Again, thanks to those of you have helped support the ministry in the past.\u00a0 Particularly those of you who this month have been helping us take advantage of this matching gift opportunity.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe have had some friends of the ministry who\u2019ve come to us and built a matching fund that is now up a little over three million dollars in recent days that number has increased.\u00a0 We\u2019re still hoping to hear from listeners who will help us take advantage of these matching gift funds.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf you can make a year-end donation to support <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, we would appreciate that.\u00a0 You can do it online at FamilyLifeToday.com or you can call us and make your donation over the phone at 1-800-FL-TODAY.\u00a0 Let me just say thanks in advance for whatever you are able to do in terms of financial support.\u00a0 Thanks for praying for us here as well.\u00a0 We appreciate your prayer support for this ministry.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe hope you can join us back tomorrow on Christmas Eve when we are going to continue to talk about the real story of Christmas with our guest Dr. Paul Maier.\u00a0 Hope you can be here.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team.\u00a0 On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine.\u00a0 We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHelp for today.\u00a0 Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t2010 Copyright \u00a9 FamilyLife. 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