{"id":302149,"date":"2010-11-11T12:00:00","date_gmt":"2010-11-11T17:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/the-fallen-nature-of-man\/"},"modified":"2010-11-11T12:00:00","modified_gmt":"2010-11-11T17:00:00","slug":"the-fallen-nature-of-man","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/the-fallen-nature-of-man\/","title":{"rendered":"The Fallen Nature of Man"},"content":{"rendered":"","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>How can a sovereign God allow such terrible atrocities to occur?<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2010-11-11.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:","filesize":"27.72M","filesize_raw":"29066415","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2848],"tags":[4060,5163,5002],"podcast_series":[7767],"cwp_profile":[8956],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-302149","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-cultural-issues","tag-america","tag-injustice","tag-politics","podcast_series-the-good-news-about-injustice","cwp_profile-gary-haugen","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/302149\/the-fallen-nature-of-man","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/302149\/the-fallen-nature-of-man","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"FGpd7DLV8a\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/the-fallen-nature-of-man\/\">The Fallen Nature of Man<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/the-fallen-nature-of-man\/embed\/#?secret=FGpd7DLV8a\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;The Fallen Nature of Man&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"FGpd7DLV8a\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2010-11-11.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2010-11-11.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0\u00a0 Confronting injustice in our world can be dangerous, like choosing to run into a burning building instead of running away.\u00a0 Here is Gary Haugen.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Whether I go into that building or not\u2014if I see a burning building there; and I think, \u201cThere are some people inside.\u00a0 Do I go in?\u00a0 Should I risk\u2014I don\u2019t know; I might get hurt.\u201d\u00a0 I am hesitating, right?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tLet\u2019s say I find out it is my daughter inside there.\u00a0 Well, my goodness, perfect love is now casting out all those fears.\u00a0 I am just going into the building.\u00a0 I don\u2019t have any more questions.\u00a0 I don\u2019t have any more hesitations because it is love that is propelling me in.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tLikewise, I think we manifest the love of Christ in the world\u2014this scandalous love of Christ.\u00a0 When Christians are found running to those places of hurt and darkness where others are running away.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Thursday, November 11<sup>th<\/sup>.\u00a0 Our host is the President of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey; and I'm Bob Lepine.\u00a0 What is our responsibility as Christians to address the issue of injustice all around the world?\u00a0 We are going to talk about that today.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today; <\/em>thanks for joining us.\u00a0 I was having a conversation\u2014I\u2019m trying to remember how long ago this was\u2014a friend and I were talking about the Bible and the messages in the Bible\u2014kind of what the main message of the Bible is.\u00a0 He said, \u201cI think most of us tend to focus in on the message of forgiveness which is a significant, central, powerful message of the gospel.\u201d\u00a0 But he said, \u201cI think we have neglected that the message that is clear in Scripture is the message of justice, which is a key theme in God\u2019s revelation to us.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>In fact, if you look at Matthew 23:23, Jesus had some of his most harsh words for the Scribes and the Pharisees when He said, \u201cYou weigh out the minor things of the Law...\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Not, \u201cYou kind of...\u201d\u00a0 (laughter)\u00a0 I think He was a little more strident.\u00a0 (laughter)\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Let me just read it here because anytime Jesus says, \u201cWoe,\u201d He is not talking about stopping a horse.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>That is right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>It is like, \u201cListen up!\u00a0 Listen up!\u201d\u00a0 \u201cListen up you Scribes and Pharisees\u2014hypocrites.\u201d\u00a0 How would you like to be called a hypocrite by the King of kings and Lord of lords?\u00a0 \u201cFor you tithe mint and dill and cumin and have neglected the weightier matters of the Law:\u201d\u00a0 To your point, Bob,\u00a0 \u201cjustice and mercy and faithfulness.\u00a0 These you ought to have done without neglecting the others.\u00a0 You blind guides, straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think if Jesus is rebuking the religious community of His day, we ought to take a step back and go, \u201cNow wait a second.\u00a0 There are a lot of people who profess to follow Christ\u2014who Jesus, if He were to step into their homes, their apartments where they live, might say, \u201cWoe. I want you to take a look at the issue of injustice.\u201d\u00a0\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe have someone with us today who is going to help us do that.\u00a0 Gary Haugen joins us again on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\u00a0 Gary, welcome back.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Great to be with you, Dennis, Bob.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Gary is no stranger, Bob, to our listening audience.\u00a0 He was on the broadcast back in 2005.\u00a0 He is a graduate of Harvard.\u00a0 In 1994, he was working for the US Dept. of Justice and was actually assigned by the Justice Dept. to work with the UN to investigate the atrocities and the genocide in Rwanda.\u00a0 I want to get to this in a moment, Gary; but it had such an impact on you that in 1997 you started International Justice Mission.\u00a0 He and his wife Jan and their four children live in the Washington, D.C. area.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to go back to 1994 for a second and talk about this issue of injustice that Bob was raising here.\u00a0 How old were you at the time?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>I was way too young.\u00a0 I was 31 years old.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Okay.\u00a0 So here is a 31-year-old young man seeing unimaginable things.\u00a0 You saw piles of bodies.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Right.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>And bones and skulls in the most unlikely place in Rwanda.\u00a0 Explain to our listeners where you saw the most murders occur.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>The truth of the genocide in Rwanda is that almost a million people were murdered in about eight weeks of time.\u00a0 Most of the killing was done with machetes.\u00a0 Most of it was done in churches.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI was sorting through thousands and thousands of butchered human beings.\u00a0 Most of them women, children, and old people.\u00a0 The reason the killing took place in churches is because the Tutsi minority ran to the churches for sanctuary.\u00a0 In previous years they found some safety there; but during the genocide of 1994, they found no safety.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>What I wanted to ask you is, \u201cHere is a 31-year-old man.\u00a0 How do you process your faith in God and belief that, as the Scriptures teach, \u2018God is good\u2019 with evil of unspeakable atrocities like that?\u201d\u00a0 I mean, it had to jar your faith at some level.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>For sure.\u00a0 Even now, I don\u2019t come up with easy answers or pat answers for what it actually feels like to stand in the midst of a mass grave where there might be 12,000 people who have been hacked to death by their neighbors.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOne of the things it certainly affirmed\u2014for sure made very vivid\u2014is the story from the Scripture of the fallen nature of the world.\u00a0 I think I had gotten accustomed to the idea, \u201cYes, the fall of man took place thousands of years ago; but we are sort of managing things now.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe fact is, the fall of man was the utter rejection by human beings of the God who made him.\u00a0 That means the rejection of the God of truth, the God of justice, the God of mercy, the God of love.\u00a0 The results are catastrophic.\u00a0 Stepping into genocide\u2014what I was basically seeing was the ultimate manifestation of what happens when human beings turn their backs on God.\u00a0 That suddenly became very, very vivid for me. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think, also, what became clear to me is the problem in the world that flows from the fall of man that manifests itself in violence.\u00a0 As Christians, we are used to dealing with a lot of problems.\u00a0 The fact, \u201cWell, the fall of man.\u00a0 Yes.\u00a0 Now people are sinful so now they don\u2019t know God.\u00a0 In some places it produces poverty, or breakdown in marriages, and so forth.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWell, there also is this powerful part of the fall of man that manifests itself in violence.\u00a0 In fact, it is the murder of Abel by Cain that is one of the very first sins that emerges out of the fall.\u00a0 Now, the question is, \u201cHow do followers of Jesus carry themselves in a world that is full of unfairness and injustice but also this oppression of violence?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat is what I was forced to come to grips with because when I was in those churches\u2014what I was doing was re-creating the crime scene, right?\u00a0\u00a0 You are trying to vividly recreate, as you gather the evidence, \u201cHow did this actually happen?\u201d\u00a0 You painfully have to picture in your mind, \u201cHow these thousands of people were hacked to death?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat I realized, too:\u00a0 Those people in that church in their moment of greatest terror and greatest need, they were not crying out to someone to bring them a sermon, or someone to bring them food, or a doctor, or a housing project.\u00a0 They were crying out for someone to restrain the hand of the Oppressor.\u00a0 That is when it became very vivid to me, \u201cWow.\u00a0 Where are the people of God showing up for the people in the world who are in desperate need of someone to restrain the hand of the Oppressor?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>I want us to put a face on this.\u00a0 You said there are 25 million people today in slavery.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>It is the equivalent of the state of Texas.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Just picture 25 million people in a state\u2014totally indentured slaves.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Put a face on it, though.\u00a0 Take us down to an individual boy, girl, man, or woman.\u00a0 You can pick a couple.\u00a0 Put a face on it for us.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>A couple of years ago, I took my teenage daughters, who are twins, to India with me so that they could see themselves an actual human being, a child, who was a slave.\u00a0 With me, they met a young boy named Kumar who was living in a poor rural village in India.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAt the age of five, he was orphaned\u2014his mother and father died.\u00a0 By the age of 7, he was then sold into a brick factory where he was held with about 50 other men, women, and children who were forced to make bricks all day long.\u00a0 What you should picture in your mind is a concrete facility\u2014inside there is a massive kiln which produces thousands of bricks.\u00a0\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tKumar\u2019s job was to mix the wet clay and form it into bricks\u2014the way you do it by hand like thousands of years ago when the Hebrews were in Egypt.\u00a0 These would bake in the sun.\u00a0\u00a0 He would have to carry them on his head\u2014sometimes loads of 25\u2014up to \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t50 pounds of bricks on his head.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Now you are talking about a seven-year-old?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>I am talking about a seven-year-old.\u00a0 I am talking about him doing this every day of the week, 12 to 14 hours a day, for years.\u00a0 He will spend, unless there is some intervention, his lifetime in this brick factory.\u00a0 In fact, people inside the brick factory had spent 15 years, 20 years.\u00a0 Kumar is a picture of this little boy who has been made by God for an abundant life\u2014to know God\u2019s goodness\u2014and yet he is completely trapped under the violent oppression of these slave owners running a brick factory.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>He is trapped because, if he tries to escape, he will be killed or because he has no means of support other than what they are providing?\u00a0 Why is he trapped?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>They will beat him.\u00a0 In fact, on days when he was just too sick to work, they would come and kick him in the head and drag him back to work.\u00a0 No.\u00a0 Slaves are held in these places\u2014not by sort of a vague sense of, \u201cI don\u2019t have other options.\u201d\u00a0 It is the use of terror.\u00a0 There are guards in these facilities.\u00a0 People are beaten brutally.\u00a0 They have witnessed murders themselves; they know what happens to those who try to run away.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Gary, you mentioned the slave owners\u2014the guys who own this brick factory\u2014what are they like?\u00a0 I mean, to keep a bunch of children?\u00a0 Is it all they have ever known so their sense of right and wrong is calloused and they are jaded? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>We know hundreds of them by name.\u00a0 They run brick factories or rock quarries\u2014sometimes brothels where they hold kids in sex slavery.\u00a0 What is fascinating about it is they are, sure, deep into evil.\u00a0 They have this tremendous capacity, actually, to not see the humanity of those who they are abusing because frequently they are parents themselves.\u00a0 They have children\u2014the brothel-keepers\u2014sometimes they have children.\u00a0 The people who run the rock quarries\u2014they have children.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThey just put them into a different category of humanity.\u00a0 They have a way of saying, \u201cThat child is outside my sphere of compassion.\u201d\u00a0 In fact, in some of these cultures, there is a religious cultural sense, \u201cThat person is destined for this status of service.\u201d\u00a0 They have a way of shutting down any compassion.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf you think, too, of slave owners in the United States a 150 years ago\u2014they were many times upstanding members of their community.\u00a0 They were family-people, but they also had a sense in which a certain category of other people were not worthy of being treated as human beings\u2014so they could be vicious.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHere is the other thing you find.\u00a0 If you have unrestrained power over another human being, this is a corrupting process where you then begin to treat them in even unnecessary ways of brutality.\u00a0 We see the slave owners being gratuitously brutal\u2014beating the kids just to assert their power; insulting them; grinding them down.\u00a0 Once you deliver yourself over to the evil of oppressing other people, I believe, there is powerful demonic forces that begin to be at play in your spirit.\u00a0 It takes you to a place of extreme violence.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>I know International Justice Mission exists to try to rescue\u2014to try to bring justice to the oppressed.\u00a0 I am thinking one of the ways that has got to happen is to go to the oppressors to raise their sense\u2014to preach the gospel to them in such a way that they become alert to the wickedness of their oppression.\u00a0 Have you seen the transformation take place in the lives of oppressors who all of a sudden wake up and see the heinousness of their oppression?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong>\u00a0 This is a very interesting topic because in many ways some people say, \u201cJustice and mercy\u2014they seem to be in conflict with one another.\u201d\u00a0 Actually, we think it is an act of mercy and love to actually restrain the oppressor from abuse.\u00a0 I don\u2019t actually love a husband well by allowing him to continue to abuse his wife or to abuse his children.\u00a0 That is not a pathway of love.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIn fact, the Bible shows that God has actually empowered the authorities to restrain abusers\u2014to give them the opportunity for repentance.\u00a0 One of things we do is help the local authorities bring to bear restraint upon those who are abusing others.\u00a0 In fact, then it does provide this opportunity of repentance.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, I can\u2019t say that very many of them take that opportunity; but we do facilitate prison ministries to be able to go actually visit them.\u00a0 We have actually done surveys of scores of sex traffickers to explore:\u00a0 \u201cWhat was beneath your story to come to this place?\u201d because they are likewise a picture of the triumph of evil.\u00a0 None of them started out in life wanting to be a complete horror to themselves and to others, but this has been the process of spiritual degradation.\u00a0 Occasionally, you can see this repentance\u2014this desire to be something better.\u00a0 I think only God can bring that redemption.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>As you were talking there, I was thinking, \u201cUndoubtedly as you ventured out around the world and you have seen evil and you have confronted it in a loving way\u2014I mean, swift and forthright\u2014punishing evil.\u00a0 As you come back to America and see the American church and American Christianity, we have a pretty soft view of love, don\u2019t we?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou are talking about confronting a husband who is abusing his wife.\u00a0 Some of us maybe know of someone who is doing that; and you are saying, \u201cWe need to step in there; and we need, if necessary, to call the police and protect that woman.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Absolutely.\u00a0 Absolutely.\u00a0\u00a0 I think fundamentally we are pain-adverse, right?\u00a0 We want to avoid things that are uncomfortable.\u00a0 A world full of violence and abuse becomes uncomfortable pretty quickly\u2014so we want to stay away from it.\u00a0 In some ways, I have to honestly say, that the understanding Christian love has then provided a little escape route away from confrontation with evil.\u00a0 That is a failure of love for the victim as well because if I am unwilling to confront\u2014I am unwilling to engage the uncomfortable\u2014I am doing that at the price of the person who has no voice, who is the victim of abuse.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are seeing, in some of the communities where we work overseas, that there has been a confusion\u2014instead of dealing with sexual violence especially or abuse of children\u2014in churches and in communities there has been, \u201cOh, well.\u00a0 Let\u2019s just forgive.\u00a0 Let\u2019s forget and move on.\u201d\u00a0 If you look at the Scripture, that is not God\u2019s attitude nor is it the pathway toward true redemption and repentance.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>You can\u2019t just cover it over.\u00a0 You have to go to the root of the cancer.\u00a0 You know, as you are describing this, I have to confess I think to myself, \u201cIn some of these cultures, this oppression and evil has been going on for so long.\u201d\u00a0 You stop and you think, \u201cThat is just who they are.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIn fact, some anthropologists would say, \u201cTo interfere is almost to do injustice.\u00a0 That is their culture; leave it alone.\u201d\u00a0 But the message we embrace is a message that says, \u201cNo.\u00a0 There is no culture that is so consumed by evil that they cannot be liberated.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Right.\u00a0 It is some sort of weird racism or cultural superiority that says, \u201cYou know, in my culture and in my race or ethnic group, we are going to keep children safe from violence, and abuse, and slavery; but not in another culture.\u00a0 That doesn\u2019t make sense.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIn addition, in each one of these countries, these cultures have already taken the step of making these things illegal.\u00a0 You are not bringing any foreign standard of morality.\u00a0 These countries have already said, \u201cSlavery is illegal.\u00a0 Sex trafficking is illegal.\u00a0 Raping and abusing children, or throwing people in prison, or stealing a widow\u2019s land.\u00a0 If not done with proper procedures, these things are illegal.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think those responses are, again, another escape route from actually just confronting the battle that needs to take place of actually bringing justice for those who are victims of violence.\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Back to Christ\u2019s words in Matthew 23:23, \u201cWoe to you religious fanatics who ignore justice, mercy, and faithfulness.\u201d\u00a0 I think the application for every one of us\u2014I really appreciate you, Gary, because I don\u2019t think I ever really had a meaningful discussion around the theme of injustice other than with some of my African-American friends.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI have been removed from it.\u00a0 I have not experienced it where I grew up\u2014a small town.\u00a0 There wasn\u2019t much injustice there; but what you are bringing to light and putting before us:\u00a0 \u201cThe responsibility of the believer to reflect the goodness of God by engaging evil.\u201d\u00a0 Moms and dads who are raising children:\u00a0 \u201cWe have got to take them near the problem.\u00a0 Let them see it.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tInternational Justice Mission has all kinds of ways that can occur through a church and through individual families.\u00a0 I encourage folks to\u2014if they don\u2019t have a copy of Gary\u2019s book, <em>Good News About Injustice, <\/em>which is now, I think, celebrating its tenth anniversary.\u00a0 It is a classic.\u00a0 You really ought to spend some time talking with your children about injustice, but not just talking\u2014doing something about it.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>I was thinking about the devotion guide that your wife Barbara wrote on the subject of courage, which a lot of our listeners have already gotten a copy of that they are using for family devotions.\u00a0 To have a copy of that devotional, along with <em>The Good News About Injustice, <\/em>I think it is a great match.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt calls us to a courageous response to the reality of what is going on in our world.\u00a0 Not everybody is going to be called to go, but I always think about what John Piper said about missions.\u00a0 He said, \u201cThere are three responses to missions in the church.\u00a0 One is:\u00a0 \u201cTo go.\u201d\u00a0 The second is:\u00a0 \u201cTo send.\u201d\u00a0 The third is:\u00a0 \u201cTo disobey.\u201d\u00a0 The reality is:\u00a0 This is something we need to figure out, \u201cHow can we be involved as individual Christians in the issue of injustice in our world?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf you go to our website FamilyLifeToday.com, there is information there about Gary\u2019s book, <em>The Good News About Injustice<\/em>.\u00a0 There is also information about the devotional that Barbara Rainey has written called <em>Growing Together in Courage<\/em>.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou can order from us online or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY.\u00a0 That is 1-800-358-6329; 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in Family, \u201cL\u201d as in Life, and then the word \u201cTODAY.\u201d\u00a0 Again, the website is FamilyLifeToday.com.\u00a0 The books we are talking about:\u00a0 <em>The Good News About Injustice<\/em> by Gary Haugen and Barbara Rainey\u2019s devotional for families called <em>Growing Together in Courage<\/em>.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tToday is Veteran\u2019s Day here in the United States.\u00a0 As a way to honor those who have served or are serving in our Armed Forces, our team came across a small book called <em>The Greatest Soldier Who Ever Lived<\/em>.\u00a0 It is an allegory based on a true story of a young man who heard of his grandfather\u2019s involvement in D-Day, storming the beaches at Normandy, and about the spiritual impact hearing about that account had on his life.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tToday and tomorrow, we are making copies of this book available to anyone who calls to request a copy.\u00a0 This may be something that you would like to give as a gift to someone who is serving or someone who has served in the military, or it might be a story that you might want to read together as a family.\u00a0 You can call to request a copy of the book <em>The Greatest Soldier Who Ever Lived<\/em>.\u00a0 We are making these books available one per caller\u2014one per family.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf you have never gotten in touch with us here at FamilyLife to let us know that you are listening to this program on your local station, here is a great opportunity to either call \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t1-800-FL-TODAY and ask for a copy of the book, <em>The Greatest Soldier Who Ever Lived,<\/em> or go online at FamilyLifeToday.com and request a copy of the book.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAgain, one per family\u2014one per household.\u00a0 We are happy to send it out to you.\u00a0 Whether you give it as a gift or keep it for your family, we hope that it is a valuable resource that will provide spiritual encouragement for those who have opportunity to read it.\u00a0 Again, go online at FamilyLifeToday.com to request a copy of the book or call \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t1-800-FLTODAY.\u00a0 We are happy to send it out to you.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tLet me encourage you to be back with us tomorrow.\u00a0 Gary Haugen is going to be with us again.\u00a0 We are going to continue to talk about the reality of injustice in our world and how we ought to respond as followers of Christ.\u00a0 I hope you can be here for that.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team on behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey.\u00a0\u00a0 I'm Bob Lepine.\u00a0 We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHelp for today.\u00a0 Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t2010 Copyright \u00a9 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>www.FamilyLife.com<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>"],"_seopress_titles_title":[""],"_seopress_titles_desc":[""],"_seopress_robots_index":[""],"duration":["00:"],"show_notes":[""],"_thumbnail_id":["294104"],"filesize":["27.72M"],"filesize_raw":["29066415"],"_uag_css_file_name":["uag-css-302149.css"],"_uag_js_file_name":["uag-js-302149.js"],"_uag_page_assets":["a:9:{s:3:\"css\";s:82560:\".wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-top svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-top .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-bottom svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-bottom .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f 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can a sovereign God allow such terrible atrocities to occur?","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2010-11-11.pdf","transcript_content":"<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0\u00a0 Confronting injustice in our world can be dangerous, like choosing to run into a burning building instead of running away.\u00a0 Here is Gary Haugen.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Whether I go into that building or not\u2014if I see a burning building there; and I think, \u201cThere are some people inside.\u00a0 Do I go in?\u00a0 Should I risk\u2014I don\u2019t know; I might get hurt.\u201d\u00a0 I am hesitating, right?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tLet\u2019s say I find out it is my daughter inside there.\u00a0 Well, my goodness, perfect love is now casting out all those fears.\u00a0 I am just going into the building.\u00a0 I don\u2019t have any more questions.\u00a0 I don\u2019t have any more hesitations because it is love that is propelling me in.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tLikewise, I think we manifest the love of Christ in the world\u2014this scandalous love of Christ.\u00a0 When Christians are found running to those places of hurt and darkness where others are running away.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Thursday, November 11<sup>th<\/sup>.\u00a0 Our host is the President of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey; and I'm Bob Lepine.\u00a0 What is our responsibility as Christians to address the issue of injustice all around the world?\u00a0 We are going to talk about that today.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today; <\/em>thanks for joining us.\u00a0 I was having a conversation\u2014I\u2019m trying to remember how long ago this was\u2014a friend and I were talking about the Bible and the messages in the Bible\u2014kind of what the main message of the Bible is.\u00a0 He said, \u201cI think most of us tend to focus in on the message of forgiveness which is a significant, central, powerful message of the gospel.\u201d\u00a0 But he said, \u201cI think we have neglected that the message that is clear in Scripture is the message of justice, which is a key theme in God\u2019s revelation to us.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>In fact, if you look at Matthew 23:23, Jesus had some of his most harsh words for the Scribes and the Pharisees when He said, \u201cYou weigh out the minor things of the Law...\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Not, \u201cYou kind of...\u201d\u00a0 (laughter)\u00a0 I think He was a little more strident.\u00a0 (laughter)\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Let me just read it here because anytime Jesus says, \u201cWoe,\u201d He is not talking about stopping a horse.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>That is right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>It is like, \u201cListen up!\u00a0 Listen up!\u201d\u00a0 \u201cListen up you Scribes and Pharisees\u2014hypocrites.\u201d\u00a0 How would you like to be called a hypocrite by the King of kings and Lord of lords?\u00a0 \u201cFor you tithe mint and dill and cumin and have neglected the weightier matters of the Law:\u201d\u00a0 To your point, Bob,\u00a0 \u201cjustice and mercy and faithfulness.\u00a0 These you ought to have done without neglecting the others.\u00a0 You blind guides, straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think if Jesus is rebuking the religious community of His day, we ought to take a step back and go, \u201cNow wait a second.\u00a0 There are a lot of people who profess to follow Christ\u2014who Jesus, if He were to step into their homes, their apartments where they live, might say, \u201cWoe. I want you to take a look at the issue of injustice.\u201d\u00a0\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe have someone with us today who is going to help us do that.\u00a0 Gary Haugen joins us again on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\u00a0 Gary, welcome back.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Great to be with you, Dennis, Bob.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Gary is no stranger, Bob, to our listening audience.\u00a0 He was on the broadcast back in 2005.\u00a0 He is a graduate of Harvard.\u00a0 In 1994, he was working for the US Dept. of Justice and was actually assigned by the Justice Dept. to work with the UN to investigate the atrocities and the genocide in Rwanda.\u00a0 I want to get to this in a moment, Gary; but it had such an impact on you that in 1997 you started International Justice Mission.\u00a0 He and his wife Jan and their four children live in the Washington, D.C. area.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to go back to 1994 for a second and talk about this issue of injustice that Bob was raising here.\u00a0 How old were you at the time?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>I was way too young.\u00a0 I was 31 years old.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Okay.\u00a0 So here is a 31-year-old young man seeing unimaginable things.\u00a0 You saw piles of bodies.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Right.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>And bones and skulls in the most unlikely place in Rwanda.\u00a0 Explain to our listeners where you saw the most murders occur.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>The truth of the genocide in Rwanda is that almost a million people were murdered in about eight weeks of time.\u00a0 Most of the killing was done with machetes.\u00a0 Most of it was done in churches.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI was sorting through thousands and thousands of butchered human beings.\u00a0 Most of them women, children, and old people.\u00a0 The reason the killing took place in churches is because the Tutsi minority ran to the churches for sanctuary.\u00a0 In previous years they found some safety there; but during the genocide of 1994, they found no safety.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>What I wanted to ask you is, \u201cHere is a 31-year-old man.\u00a0 How do you process your faith in God and belief that, as the Scriptures teach, \u2018God is good\u2019 with evil of unspeakable atrocities like that?\u201d\u00a0 I mean, it had to jar your faith at some level.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>For sure.\u00a0 Even now, I don\u2019t come up with easy answers or pat answers for what it actually feels like to stand in the midst of a mass grave where there might be 12,000 people who have been hacked to death by their neighbors.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOne of the things it certainly affirmed\u2014for sure made very vivid\u2014is the story from the Scripture of the fallen nature of the world.\u00a0 I think I had gotten accustomed to the idea, \u201cYes, the fall of man took place thousands of years ago; but we are sort of managing things now.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe fact is, the fall of man was the utter rejection by human beings of the God who made him.\u00a0 That means the rejection of the God of truth, the God of justice, the God of mercy, the God of love.\u00a0 The results are catastrophic.\u00a0 Stepping into genocide\u2014what I was basically seeing was the ultimate manifestation of what happens when human beings turn their backs on God.\u00a0 That suddenly became very, very vivid for me. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think, also, what became clear to me is the problem in the world that flows from the fall of man that manifests itself in violence.\u00a0 As Christians, we are used to dealing with a lot of problems.\u00a0 The fact, \u201cWell, the fall of man.\u00a0 Yes.\u00a0 Now people are sinful so now they don\u2019t know God.\u00a0 In some places it produces poverty, or breakdown in marriages, and so forth.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWell, there also is this powerful part of the fall of man that manifests itself in violence.\u00a0 In fact, it is the murder of Abel by Cain that is one of the very first sins that emerges out of the fall.\u00a0 Now, the question is, \u201cHow do followers of Jesus carry themselves in a world that is full of unfairness and injustice but also this oppression of violence?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat is what I was forced to come to grips with because when I was in those churches\u2014what I was doing was re-creating the crime scene, right?\u00a0\u00a0 You are trying to vividly recreate, as you gather the evidence, \u201cHow did this actually happen?\u201d\u00a0 You painfully have to picture in your mind, \u201cHow these thousands of people were hacked to death?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat I realized, too:\u00a0 Those people in that church in their moment of greatest terror and greatest need, they were not crying out to someone to bring them a sermon, or someone to bring them food, or a doctor, or a housing project.\u00a0 They were crying out for someone to restrain the hand of the Oppressor.\u00a0 That is when it became very vivid to me, \u201cWow.\u00a0 Where are the people of God showing up for the people in the world who are in desperate need of someone to restrain the hand of the Oppressor?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>I want us to put a face on this.\u00a0 You said there are 25 million people today in slavery.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>It is the equivalent of the state of Texas.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Just picture 25 million people in a state\u2014totally indentured slaves.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Put a face on it, though.\u00a0 Take us down to an individual boy, girl, man, or woman.\u00a0 You can pick a couple.\u00a0 Put a face on it for us.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>A couple of years ago, I took my teenage daughters, who are twins, to India with me so that they could see themselves an actual human being, a child, who was a slave.\u00a0 With me, they met a young boy named Kumar who was living in a poor rural village in India.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAt the age of five, he was orphaned\u2014his mother and father died.\u00a0 By the age of 7, he was then sold into a brick factory where he was held with about 50 other men, women, and children who were forced to make bricks all day long.\u00a0 What you should picture in your mind is a concrete facility\u2014inside there is a massive kiln which produces thousands of bricks.\u00a0\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tKumar\u2019s job was to mix the wet clay and form it into bricks\u2014the way you do it by hand like thousands of years ago when the Hebrews were in Egypt.\u00a0 These would bake in the sun.\u00a0\u00a0 He would have to carry them on his head\u2014sometimes loads of 25\u2014up to \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t50 pounds of bricks on his head.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Now you are talking about a seven-year-old?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>I am talking about a seven-year-old.\u00a0 I am talking about him doing this every day of the week, 12 to 14 hours a day, for years.\u00a0 He will spend, unless there is some intervention, his lifetime in this brick factory.\u00a0 In fact, people inside the brick factory had spent 15 years, 20 years.\u00a0 Kumar is a picture of this little boy who has been made by God for an abundant life\u2014to know God\u2019s goodness\u2014and yet he is completely trapped under the violent oppression of these slave owners running a brick factory.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>He is trapped because, if he tries to escape, he will be killed or because he has no means of support other than what they are providing?\u00a0 Why is he trapped?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>They will beat him.\u00a0 In fact, on days when he was just too sick to work, they would come and kick him in the head and drag him back to work.\u00a0 No.\u00a0 Slaves are held in these places\u2014not by sort of a vague sense of, \u201cI don\u2019t have other options.\u201d\u00a0 It is the use of terror.\u00a0 There are guards in these facilities.\u00a0 People are beaten brutally.\u00a0 They have witnessed murders themselves; they know what happens to those who try to run away.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Gary, you mentioned the slave owners\u2014the guys who own this brick factory\u2014what are they like?\u00a0 I mean, to keep a bunch of children?\u00a0 Is it all they have ever known so their sense of right and wrong is calloused and they are jaded? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>We know hundreds of them by name.\u00a0 They run brick factories or rock quarries\u2014sometimes brothels where they hold kids in sex slavery.\u00a0 What is fascinating about it is they are, sure, deep into evil.\u00a0 They have this tremendous capacity, actually, to not see the humanity of those who they are abusing because frequently they are parents themselves.\u00a0 They have children\u2014the brothel-keepers\u2014sometimes they have children.\u00a0 The people who run the rock quarries\u2014they have children.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThey just put them into a different category of humanity.\u00a0 They have a way of saying, \u201cThat child is outside my sphere of compassion.\u201d\u00a0 In fact, in some of these cultures, there is a religious cultural sense, \u201cThat person is destined for this status of service.\u201d\u00a0 They have a way of shutting down any compassion.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf you think, too, of slave owners in the United States a 150 years ago\u2014they were many times upstanding members of their community.\u00a0 They were family-people, but they also had a sense in which a certain category of other people were not worthy of being treated as human beings\u2014so they could be vicious.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHere is the other thing you find.\u00a0 If you have unrestrained power over another human being, this is a corrupting process where you then begin to treat them in even unnecessary ways of brutality.\u00a0 We see the slave owners being gratuitously brutal\u2014beating the kids just to assert their power; insulting them; grinding them down.\u00a0 Once you deliver yourself over to the evil of oppressing other people, I believe, there is powerful demonic forces that begin to be at play in your spirit.\u00a0 It takes you to a place of extreme violence.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>I know International Justice Mission exists to try to rescue\u2014to try to bring justice to the oppressed.\u00a0 I am thinking one of the ways that has got to happen is to go to the oppressors to raise their sense\u2014to preach the gospel to them in such a way that they become alert to the wickedness of their oppression.\u00a0 Have you seen the transformation take place in the lives of oppressors who all of a sudden wake up and see the heinousness of their oppression?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong>\u00a0 This is a very interesting topic because in many ways some people say, \u201cJustice and mercy\u2014they seem to be in conflict with one another.\u201d\u00a0 Actually, we think it is an act of mercy and love to actually restrain the oppressor from abuse.\u00a0 I don\u2019t actually love a husband well by allowing him to continue to abuse his wife or to abuse his children.\u00a0 That is not a pathway of love.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIn fact, the Bible shows that God has actually empowered the authorities to restrain abusers\u2014to give them the opportunity for repentance.\u00a0 One of things we do is help the local authorities bring to bear restraint upon those who are abusing others.\u00a0 In fact, then it does provide this opportunity of repentance.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, I can\u2019t say that very many of them take that opportunity; but we do facilitate prison ministries to be able to go actually visit them.\u00a0 We have actually done surveys of scores of sex traffickers to explore:\u00a0 \u201cWhat was beneath your story to come to this place?\u201d because they are likewise a picture of the triumph of evil.\u00a0 None of them started out in life wanting to be a complete horror to themselves and to others, but this has been the process of spiritual degradation.\u00a0 Occasionally, you can see this repentance\u2014this desire to be something better.\u00a0 I think only God can bring that redemption.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>As you were talking there, I was thinking, \u201cUndoubtedly as you ventured out around the world and you have seen evil and you have confronted it in a loving way\u2014I mean, swift and forthright\u2014punishing evil.\u00a0 As you come back to America and see the American church and American Christianity, we have a pretty soft view of love, don\u2019t we?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou are talking about confronting a husband who is abusing his wife.\u00a0 Some of us maybe know of someone who is doing that; and you are saying, \u201cWe need to step in there; and we need, if necessary, to call the police and protect that woman.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Absolutely.\u00a0 Absolutely.\u00a0\u00a0 I think fundamentally we are pain-adverse, right?\u00a0 We want to avoid things that are uncomfortable.\u00a0 A world full of violence and abuse becomes uncomfortable pretty quickly\u2014so we want to stay away from it.\u00a0 In some ways, I have to honestly say, that the understanding Christian love has then provided a little escape route away from confrontation with evil.\u00a0 That is a failure of love for the victim as well because if I am unwilling to confront\u2014I am unwilling to engage the uncomfortable\u2014I am doing that at the price of the person who has no voice, who is the victim of abuse.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are seeing, in some of the communities where we work overseas, that there has been a confusion\u2014instead of dealing with sexual violence especially or abuse of children\u2014in churches and in communities there has been, \u201cOh, well.\u00a0 Let\u2019s just forgive.\u00a0 Let\u2019s forget and move on.\u201d\u00a0 If you look at the Scripture, that is not God\u2019s attitude nor is it the pathway toward true redemption and repentance.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>You can\u2019t just cover it over.\u00a0 You have to go to the root of the cancer.\u00a0 You know, as you are describing this, I have to confess I think to myself, \u201cIn some of these cultures, this oppression and evil has been going on for so long.\u201d\u00a0 You stop and you think, \u201cThat is just who they are.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIn fact, some anthropologists would say, \u201cTo interfere is almost to do injustice.\u00a0 That is their culture; leave it alone.\u201d\u00a0 But the message we embrace is a message that says, \u201cNo.\u00a0 There is no culture that is so consumed by evil that they cannot be liberated.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Gary:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Right.\u00a0 It is some sort of weird racism or cultural superiority that says, \u201cYou know, in my culture and in my race or ethnic group, we are going to keep children safe from violence, and abuse, and slavery; but not in another culture.\u00a0 That doesn\u2019t make sense.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIn addition, in each one of these countries, these cultures have already taken the step of making these things illegal.\u00a0 You are not bringing any foreign standard of morality.\u00a0 These countries have already said, \u201cSlavery is illegal.\u00a0 Sex trafficking is illegal.\u00a0 Raping and abusing children, or throwing people in prison, or stealing a widow\u2019s land.\u00a0 If not done with proper procedures, these things are illegal.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think those responses are, again, another escape route from actually just confronting the battle that needs to take place of actually bringing justice for those who are victims of violence.\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Back to Christ\u2019s words in Matthew 23:23, \u201cWoe to you religious fanatics who ignore justice, mercy, and faithfulness.\u201d\u00a0 I think the application for every one of us\u2014I really appreciate you, Gary, because I don\u2019t think I ever really had a meaningful discussion around the theme of injustice other than with some of my African-American friends.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI have been removed from it.\u00a0 I have not experienced it where I grew up\u2014a small town.\u00a0 There wasn\u2019t much injustice there; but what you are bringing to light and putting before us:\u00a0 \u201cThe responsibility of the believer to reflect the goodness of God by engaging evil.\u201d\u00a0 Moms and dads who are raising children:\u00a0 \u201cWe have got to take them near the problem.\u00a0 Let them see it.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tInternational Justice Mission has all kinds of ways that can occur through a church and through individual families.\u00a0 I encourage folks to\u2014if they don\u2019t have a copy of Gary\u2019s book, <em>Good News About Injustice, <\/em>which is now, I think, celebrating its tenth anniversary.\u00a0 It is a classic.\u00a0 You really ought to spend some time talking with your children about injustice, but not just talking\u2014doing something about it.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>I was thinking about the devotion guide that your wife Barbara wrote on the subject of courage, which a lot of our listeners have already gotten a copy of that they are using for family devotions.\u00a0 To have a copy of that devotional, along with <em>The Good News About Injustice, <\/em>I think it is a great match.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt calls us to a courageous response to the reality of what is going on in our world.\u00a0 Not everybody is going to be called to go, but I always think about what John Piper said about missions.\u00a0 He said, \u201cThere are three responses to missions in the church.\u00a0 One is:\u00a0 \u201cTo go.\u201d\u00a0 The second is:\u00a0 \u201cTo send.\u201d\u00a0 The third is:\u00a0 \u201cTo disobey.\u201d\u00a0 The reality is:\u00a0 This is something we need to figure out, \u201cHow can we be involved as individual Christians in the issue of injustice in our world?\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf you go to our website FamilyLifeToday.com, there is information there about Gary\u2019s book, <em>The Good News About Injustice<\/em>.\u00a0 There is also information about the devotional that Barbara Rainey has written called <em>Growing Together in Courage<\/em>.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou can order from us online or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY.\u00a0 That is 1-800-358-6329; 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in Family, \u201cL\u201d as in Life, and then the word \u201cTODAY.\u201d\u00a0 Again, the website is FamilyLifeToday.com.\u00a0 The books we are talking about:\u00a0 <em>The Good News About Injustice<\/em> by Gary Haugen and Barbara Rainey\u2019s devotional for families called <em>Growing Together in Courage<\/em>.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tToday is Veteran\u2019s Day here in the United States.\u00a0 As a way to honor those who have served or are serving in our Armed Forces, our team came across a small book called <em>The Greatest Soldier Who Ever Lived<\/em>.\u00a0 It is an allegory based on a true story of a young man who heard of his grandfather\u2019s involvement in D-Day, storming the beaches at Normandy, and about the spiritual impact hearing about that account had on his life.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tToday and tomorrow, we are making copies of this book available to anyone who calls to request a copy.\u00a0 This may be something that you would like to give as a gift to someone who is serving or someone who has served in the military, or it might be a story that you might want to read together as a family.\u00a0 You can call to request a copy of the book <em>The Greatest Soldier Who Ever Lived<\/em>.\u00a0 We are making these books available one per caller\u2014one per family.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf you have never gotten in touch with us here at FamilyLife to let us know that you are listening to this program on your local station, here is a great opportunity to either call \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t1-800-FL-TODAY and ask for a copy of the book, <em>The Greatest Soldier Who Ever Lived,<\/em> or go online at FamilyLifeToday.com and request a copy of the book.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAgain, one per family\u2014one per household.\u00a0 We are happy to send it out to you.\u00a0 Whether you give it as a gift or keep it for your family, we hope that it is a valuable resource that will provide spiritual encouragement for those who have opportunity to read it.\u00a0 Again, go online at FamilyLifeToday.com to request a copy of the book or call \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t1-800-FLTODAY.\u00a0 We are happy to send it out to you.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tLet me encourage you to be back with us tomorrow.\u00a0 Gary Haugen is going to be with us again.\u00a0 We are going to continue to talk about the reality of injustice in our world and how we ought to respond as followers of Christ.\u00a0 I hope you can be here for that.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team on behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey.\u00a0\u00a0 I'm Bob Lepine.\u00a0 We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHelp for today.\u00a0 Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t2010 Copyright \u00a9 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>www.FamilyLife.com<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>","theme_header_position":"","post_header_is_sticky":"","is_header_overlay":""},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/302149","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/91"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=302149"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/294104"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=302149"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=302149"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=302149"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=302149"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=302149"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=302149"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}