{"id":302013,"date":"2010-04-13T11:00:00","date_gmt":"2010-04-13T15:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/becoming-sexually-mature\/"},"modified":"2010-04-13T11:00:00","modified_gmt":"2010-04-13T15:00:00","slug":"becoming-sexually-mature","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/becoming-sexually-mature\/","title":{"rendered":"Becoming Sexually Mature"},"content":{"rendered":"","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Do you have a healthy view of sex?<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2010-04-13.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:","filesize":"22.06M","filesize_raw":"23130445","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2840,2903],"tags":[2487,5147],"podcast_series":[7720],"cwp_profile":[8961],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-302013","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-addiction","category-infidelity","tag-sexual-addiction","tag-sexualized-culture","podcast_series-undefiled","cwp_profile-dr-harry-schaumburg","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/302013\/becoming-sexually-mature","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/302013\/becoming-sexually-mature","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"bG41YIL6at\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/becoming-sexually-mature\/\">Becoming Sexually Mature<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/becoming-sexually-mature\/embed\/#?secret=bG41YIL6at\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Becoming Sexually Mature&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"bG41YIL6at\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2010-04-13.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2010-04-13.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Harry:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Your female body \u2013 your male body was created in the image of God.\u00a0 It has incredible value.\u00a0 So, it\u2019s giving that kind of foundation and really understanding that the body is the Lord\u2019s.\u00a0 That your eight year old body, your eighteen-year-old body, your thirty-eight year old body is not your body Paul says.\u00a0 It\u2019s been bought with a price.\u00a0 It doesn\u2019t belong to you and this gets to the issue of self-centeredness \u2013 you can\u2019t do what you want with your body.\u00a0 You don\u2019t have the right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Tuesday, April 13.\u00a0 Our host is the President of FamilyLife Dennis Rainey and I\u2019m Bob Lepine.\u00a0 There\u2019s a lot more we need to do as parents to get our children ready to understand their sexuality than teaching them to just say no.\u00a0 We\u2019ll talk about that today. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWelcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> thanks for joining us.\u00a0 We\u2019re spending some time this week trying to dig into what \u2013 I don\u2019t know if it\u2019s a bigger problem or we\u2019re just more aware of it or I guess it seems like every year it just gets bigger and bigger, and bigger.\u00a0 It\u2019s the issue of sexual sin in the culture, in a marriage relationship.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 And in raising boys and girls today.\u00a0 They\u2019re being exposed to stuff at earlier and earlier ages and man it just feels like we\u2019re raising kids in a real danger zone today.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Well, and I guess that\u2019s part of the reason that it feels more oppressive because every year it seems the culture in which we live gets more highly sexualized.\u00a0 I think we need to say right up here at the front of the program that our listeners may want to direct the attention of younger listeners away because we are going to explore this subject today and try to do it in an appropriate way but one that parents may want to have their kids thinking about other things for the next few minutes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 I think that\u2019s wise counsel Bob, and we have with us a guest in the studio who has more than two decades experience in counseling people who struggle with the besetting sexual sins.\u00a0 Dr. Harry Schaumburg joins us again on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> \u2013 Harry welcome back.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Harry:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Thank you Dennis \u2013 good to be here!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Harry you\u2019ve written a book called:\u00a0 <em>Undefiled<\/em> which is subtitled <em>Redemption from Sexual Sins \u2013 Restoration for Broken Relationships.<\/em><em>\u00a0 <\/em>You actually have an intensive counseling session that you take couples through.\u00a0 How long does this intensive last?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Harry:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>This is a seven-day program that we currently do in Colorado where couples come and I counsel them individually.\u00a0 It\u2019s not group counseling, and we just take this problem and hit it head on.\u00a0 We\u2019ve been doing that for nearly two decades as you mentioned, and we have just seen some of the worst of the worst in terms of the darkness of sexual sin, and yet at the same time we\u2019ve seen peoples lives completely turned around \u2013 marriages saved in the process.\u00a0 So, it\u2019s been a hard ministry in terms of having to deal with the stuff you deal with but at the same time I take great satisfaction in being able to see God really change people almost literally before your eyes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 As we\u2019ve talked about this subject this week, and I think anytime we talk about this subject we tend to put it in kind of this classic scenario where it is the man who is involved in sexual sin, and it is his poor wife who is the one who is the bystander.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Or the victim!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes, or the victim.\u00a0 Have you seen situations in counseling where that\u2019s reversed?\u00a0 Where it is the wife who\u2019s involved in sexual sin?\u00a0 Are you seeing that grow in the culture today?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Harry:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>I think it\u2019s definitely growing in the culture \u2013 you know you look at some of the statistics and undefiled and women clearly in terms of the internet are bigger users of the cybersex world than men are.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 In what way?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Really \u2013 is this chatting that they\u2019re doing more than\u2026\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Harry:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>It\u2019s more than the images \u2013 yes that\u2019s important to make clear.\u00a0 You know men would be more typically looking at the sexual images that we equate with the Internet and visual sex pornography.\u00a0 Women are looking for sexual connection \u2013 relational I would call it false intimacy but it\u2019s relationship on the Internet.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI remember a woman that I counseled a number of years ago that was actually a missionary.\u00a0 She was a single woman and you know understandably had been lonely \u2013 been a faithful servant of God, had served several terms in the mission field, helped plant a church but at the same time had that in her 40\u2019s that loneliness of not having a companion that we would all understand even those of us who are married.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tShe went on the Internet and started chatting looking for that connection.\u00a0 She took it far enough where she actually met the man that she was communicating with, but wisely did not step over the line in terms of developing a physical relationship, and then went to her mission board and said, \u201cI really need help here I think I\u2019ve gone too far.\u201d\u00a0 We work with a number of missionary organizations who will then immediately send those people to our counseling program.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>In the context of the people you\u2019ve talked to over the years one of the things whenever we get into this subject on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> we\u2019re hearing from a lot more wives who are contacting us and saying, \u201cMy husband does not have strong sexual desire.\u201d\u00a0 Have you seen this be a developing issue in your two-three decades of practice?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Harry:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Yes I think it\u2019s still the minority where the man has the loss of sexual interest.\u00a0 What\u2019s interesting in all the cases where we\u2019ve counseled the man who\u2019s lost the sexual interest you always have a woman who has I would say a fairly normal sexual interest.\u00a0 I think we have in the church today a tremendous loss of the real meaning and value of sexual intimacy, and what God has really provided for a married couple.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Open that up a little bit what do you mean we\u2019ve lost the sense of what that is supposed to be?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Harry:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Well, I think it comes back to being self-centered \u2013 that we enter relationships to get what we want to get for ourselves.\u00a0 When you bring that into the bedroom it\u2019s not going to work.\u00a0 In the intimacy between a husband and wife there needs to be a real cherishing, a real respect on the part of the husband and wife, and there needs to be a giving, a caring, a tenderness, and a kindness.\u00a0 But, when you approach your wife more as an object as women use that term, I feel like an object \u2013 it\u2019s like is he present?\u00a0 Is he really there?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, she feels like an object, and not surprising she\u2019s lost sexual interest.\u00a0 The sexual dissatisfaction in marriage I think is really almost as significant a problem as we see the pornography.\u00a0 Because, I think we do need healthy sexual intimacy in marriage as a preventative measure.\u00a0 You see that clearly in I Corinthians 7.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>You tell a story about a couple: Jim and Carrie in your book\u00a0 - would you use them as a prototypical couple of what\u2019s taking place in a lot of marriages today, or would you say they\u2019re more of an exception?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Harry:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>They\u2019re very much the average couple that comes to our counseling program.\u00a0 It\u2019s a couple that the wife finds out \u2013 discovers the problem.\u00a0 The problem is pornography, and then often or maybe 50 percent of the time the wife finds out as with Jim and Carrie that there\u2019s more to it. He\u2019s actually had contact with these women via the Internet.\u00a0 This story takes a particular twist at the end of the book where they actually find out that one of their children has a problem.\u00a0 Their married daughter is unfaithful.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOne reason we chose that story is because we really want people to be concerned about their kids.\u00a0 We get so caught up in what\u2019s going on \u2013 this is my marriage, it\u2019s falling apart, there\u2019s this problem.\u00a0 We have to look beyond our own generation, and we have to say, what\u2019s happening to my children, and my adult children.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>And how they\u2019re being impacted by my sin!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Harry:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>By my sin, and we have to get ahead of the curve so to speak.\u00a0 We have to get out there I think on the level of prevention because they\u2019re really, really being hit and bombarded in today\u2019s world sexually.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>You mentioned that this is a prototypical couple, and you began by saying the guy\u2019s involved in pornography.\u00a0 In the average church in America today what percent of the adult men let\u2019s say above the age of 20 years old \u2013 what percentage of those men view pornography every month?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Harry:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>You know I have not seen hard statistics on what the percentage is but we have a couple of indicators that we mention in the book.\u00a0 One is a quote from Chuck Swindoll where he talks about as many as half the congregation struggling with Internet pornography is a likely possibility, and I think that\u2019s a fair estimate.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe work with one mission organization where 80 percent of their candidates for missionary service on voluntary questioning \u2013 men indicate that they have a problem with pornography.\u00a0 We had contact with a couple of other organizations where they said 100 percent of the candidates that they were interviewing for church plants \u2013 planting a church were struggling with pornography and the wives didn\u2019t even know about it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>100%?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Harry:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>100 percent.\u00a0 They said we have yet to interview a young man for church planting in our organization who hasn\u2019t had a problem with pornography.\u00a0 They were interviewing across denominational lines \u2013 a number of different denominations. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>You know here\u2019s an application from today\u2019s broadcast for a mom and a dad who are raising a daughter who perhaps is about to be married.\u00a0 If you\u2019re talking to the young man who\u2019s about to marry your daughter the question is not have you seen any pornography \u2013 the question is kind of share with me your history of how much pornography you viewed?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThen with your sons \u2013 I think the question has to be broached with our sons.\u00a0 What would you say to your son today if you had a 18, 19 year old man young about to go away to college Harry. What kind of conversation would you have, and tell me a little bit about how you\u2019d set that conversation up?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Harry:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>I would have a conversation about what has he already seen, not what is he going to see in college.\u00a0 I think we need to be talking about what has he been exposed to in the Internet, what has he been exposed to through the process of sexting on cell phones with other teenagers while he\u2019s been in high school?\u00a0 We need to find out what\u2019s already been going on.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think the whole world of hooking up on the college campus now is just something that\u2019s very hard for those of us who are older who went to a different type of college so to speak.\u00a0 So, I want to talk to him about what is sexuality in a God honoring way.\u00a0\u00a0 What is your body really about\u00a0 - that your body is for the Lord, the Lord is for the body Paul talks about in 1 Corinthians.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, I think we have to use some tools like covenant eyes \u2013 things that will give accountability to where he\u2019s been on the computer.\u00a0 But, those are tools that are effective, but they don\u2019t really get down to the heart of the problem.\u00a0 So, I want my son, I want the young man I\u2019m talking to in my church \u2013 I want him to really be grounded spiritually in terms of where he\u2019s at.\u00a0 And again, looking at issues of self-centeredness.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>You mentioned covenant eyes.\u00a0 I don\u2019t know how many of our listeners know about this but this is an accountability program where voluntarily you set up with an accountability partner an agreement where once a week you\u2019re going to get an e-mail showing where you\u2019ve been on the Internet or if you\u2019re going someplace you ought not go I think an e-mail goes out right away to your accountability partner and says warning there\u2019s something going on here.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>It\u2019s actual software that you put in your computer that sets up this accountability relationship.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Right, and they don\u2019t provide the accountability partner you have to find your own accountability partner, but the idea is you have somebody in the battle with you, and that accountability is one safeguard against sin isn\u2019t it?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Harry:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>And, the neat thing is if you delete the program from your computer it shuts down your access to the Internet.\u00a0 The only way you can get back onto the Internet through that computer is you have to call covenant eyes and explain to them how you accidentally deleted this from your computer.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>We have a link on our web site to the covenant eyes web site so if folks want to find out more they can come to FamilyLifeToday.com and they can find out more about covenant eyes by going there.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThese kinds of tools are just that \u2013 they\u2019re tools \u2013 they\u2019re not going to fix the problem because the problem is not with your computer.\u00a0 The problem\u2019s your own eyes, and your own heart isn\u2019t it?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Well, and to that point you speak about in your book about how there is a need today \u2013 and I really like the term you use here \u2013 I don\u2019t think I\u2019ve ever heard anyone use it.\u00a0 You call men and women to become sexually mature.\u00a0 You know that really makes sense.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAs I read that I thought when did I become sexually mature?\u00a0 It wasn\u2019t as I moved through puberty on into adolescence.\u00a0 It was later on in marriage after I\u2019d made in my opinion some really dumb decisions with Barbara and been selfish in our relationship.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI saw how that wounded my wife, and you know these are things you\u2019ve written about for the past decade \u2013 calling people to true intimacy and true maturity.\u00a0 But, if you would unpack that concept a little bit as well Harry.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Harry:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Yes, sexual maturity is to me a very, very, very important concept.\u00a0 I think what we\u2019ve done, and it\u2019s a disservice is we\u2019ve said, \u201cWell, be a virgin when you get married.\u201d\u00a0 Well, that\u2019s a good thing, and I would certainly encourage anyone\u2019s son or daughter to maintain their virginity, but that\u2019s not maturity.\u00a0 In fact I think sometimes that commitment to maintain your virginity doesn\u2019t work because there\u2019s no maturity.\u00a0 So, I think maturity comes back to who am I really sexually as a being created in the image of God.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHere\u2019s the challenge \u2013 how do you explain that to an eight-year old so that you begin to develop at a very young age because if they\u2019re going to be exposed to pornography at age eight \u2013 how do you begin to develop maturity in an eight-year old?\u00a0 So, it\u2019s age specific.\u00a0 What does that eight-year old need to understand about their body\u00a0 - their sexuality?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNumber one and obviously but I think we have to say it is that your sexual body\u2014 your female body, your male body\u2014was created in the image of God.\u00a0 It has incredible value.\u00a0 We need to start talking about that your body; who you are anatomically, is created for God\u2019s purpose in a marriage \u2013 not outside of marriage \u2013 nothing before marriage.\u00a0 It doesn\u2019t belong to you.\u00a0 This gets to the issue of self-centeredness.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou can\u2019t do what you want with your body.\u00a0 You don\u2019t have the right.\u00a0 Of course everything around us is saying I have to right to do what I want with my body, and the Bible says, \u201cNo, you don\u2019t \u201c!\u00a0 So, I think that\u2019s the direction towards maturity and then of course the proper expression of sex that gives in marriage rather than takes in marriages is very, very important.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Sexual maturity than is looking at how we\u2019re made in the image of God and not thinking negatively about our sex drive but thinking holistically from a biblical standpoint that God gave you this.\u00a0 It was to be protected until marriage and then to be used in a marriage relationship in a self denying way to respect and please your married partner.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>I think that\u2019s the issue.\u00a0 The self-denying, the selfless approach.\u00a0 I mean when I stop and think about what does sexual maturity look like, there are a lot of married folks who understand the anatomy and who understand all kinds of things about sexuality but they have not understood the selflessness and as a result they\u2019re sexually immature.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Harry:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Exactly \u2013 exactly!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>I\u2019d have to say, and again just reflecting back on my own life at this point \u2013 little honesty here.\u00a0 I think first ten years of my marriage I could not have described myself as being sexually mature.\u00a0 Now, was I growing?\u00a0 Yes, but I was growing through my mistakes and through the lessons I was learning.\u00a0 Now at age 62, I can kind of look back on it, and I say I have a few threads of maturity \u2013 sexual maturity.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Picked up a little along the way!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>A little along the way, and I look back with great satisfaction, but I also look back with some remorse at some of the mistakes I made.\u00a0 That ties into another term that you use in your book:\u00a0 Sexual redemption \u2013 because we all do fail we need the hope of sexual redemption \u2013 what\u2019s that?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Harry:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Well, if there\u2019s sexual maturity of course what we\u2019re saying is there\u2019s sexual immaturity.\u00a0 You can just put that in psychological terms, medical terms, clinical terms but if we\u2019re really looking at sexual maturity as tied into our selfishness\u00a0 - go back to the maturity issue I think what you\u2019re probably saying Dennis is that when I first got married, and certainly my story as well when I first got married I was more interested in what I could get.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHere\u2019s the proof that it was immature.\u00a0 How did you feel when you didn\u2019t get it?\u00a0 How upset did you get?\u00a0 How frustrated did you get because I couldn\u2019t get what I want.\u00a0 That sounds like immaturity.\u00a0 Hopefully as a mature man when I can\u2019t get what I want I can handle that in a more appropriate way.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWell, if that\u2019s what we\u2019re talking about in terms of immaturity then sexual redemption is addressing the sin of that \u2013 the self-centeredness of that.\u00a0 It\u2019s the application of what God does to transform a sinful heart.\u00a0 It\u2019s taking the righteousness of Christ and it\u2019s imparting it to us at a deeper level that we become more holy in who we are- certainly holy in our sexuality but in all spirituality we\u2019re a more mature person.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>I\u2019m just listening to you here and I\u2019m thinking I wish it hadn\u2019t taken so long.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t(laughter)\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>You\u2019d like to start all over again wouldn\u2019t you?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Barbara and I have said this many times, and I know all three of us will identify with this statement here.\u00a0 Oh course I am because I\u2019m going to make it!\u00a0 But, I really wouldn\u2019t want to swap out with a newly married couple today for all the passion and all the youth that comes with a young couple starting out their marriage relationship.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI really like this.\u00a0 We\u2019re approaching 38 years of marriage together, and there\u2019s a safety, a security, a sense of growth and satisfaction that really is sweet.\u00a0 It really is satisfying.\u00a0 I have to say though I do regret some of those points that you\u2019re talking about:\u00a0 The selfishness that really needed redeeming.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Harry:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Yes, I\u2019ll be married 41 years coming up here soon, and I totally agree with you Dennis.\u00a0 I think when we look back at some of the things we were doing as younger couples\u00a0 - yes, I was a virgin when I got married, but it\u2019s maturity more than that.\u00a0 I look at young couples now or I look at a guy who\u2019s my age or 50, and he\u2019s had an affair with a woman 20 years younger, and I think what are you doing?\u00a0\u00a0 That doesn\u2019t make any sense.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tA 20 year old is a 20 year old.\u00a0 Why would you want to have an affair even with a 20 year old?\u00a0 There\u2019s something about the intimacy, and the fulfillment with a mature woman.\u00a0 A woman who is mature spiritually.\u00a0 A woman who is mature physically, and sexually, and relationally, and that you have been connected in purity for 40 years.\u00a0 I\u2019m sorry there\u2019s no competition to that!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>You know I think a lot of people hear our conversation, and they may pick up a copy of your book, and they\u2019ll think well okay, I don\u2019t need this because I\u2019m not in bondage to some kind of sexual sin.\u00a0 The reality is if we want our sexuality to be all God intended it to be all of us have issues whether it\u2019s the selfishness Dennis has been talking about or little pet sins that we keep hidden away related to our sexuality.\u00a0 This is a book that I think every married couple could read together in pursuit of the kind of sexual relationship that God blesses in the Song of Solomon when he says, \u201cEnjoy\u201d to the lovers there.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe book\u2019s called: <em>Undefiled. <\/em>\u00a0We have it in our FamilyLife Today Resource Center.\u00a0 You can go online at FamilyLifeToday.com to request a copy \u2013 again the web site FamilyLifeToday.com or you can call toll-free 1-800-FLTODAY ask about the book <em>Undefiled<\/em>, and we\u2019ll let you know how you can get a copy of it sent to you.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAgain, even if you\u2019re starting out in your marriage relationship and this is an area that\u2019s creating some tension or some challenges for you Harry\u2019s book could be a great help.\u00a0 So, go online at FamilyLifeToday.com or call 1-800-FL-TODAY, and we\u2019ll make arrangements to get a copy to you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, do you know who made today\u2019s radio program possible?\u00a0 Well, there were three groups of people \u2013 there\u2019s your local Christian radio station \u2013 they made the airtime available to us.\u00a0 There\u2019s our team here at FamilyLife\u2014the group that arranges for these interviews, and does the production work once the recording is done.\u00a0 And then there\u2019s you \u2013 those of you who listen to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, and particularly those of you who from time to time will make a donation to help keep the program on the air.\u00a0 You really are partners both with the radio station and with us in making <em>FamilyLife Today <\/em>possible in your community.\u00a0 We appreciate your financial support of the ministry.\u00a0 We couldn\u2019t do without it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThis month if you\u2019re able to help with a donation of any amount to support the ministry of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> and to keep us on the air here in this community we would love to send you as a thank you gift two copies of the new <em>HomeBuilders <\/em>Study Guidecalled<em> Building Your Marriage to Last<\/em>.\u00a0 It\u2019s completely revised and updated.\u00a0\u00a0 It\u2019s a great guide to go through as a couple to help strengthen your marriage or it\u2019s something you could use with other couples in a small group setting.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAgain the two <em>HomeBuilders <\/em>Study Guidesare our thank you gift to you this month when you support the ministry of <em>FamilyLife Today <\/em>with a donation of any amount.\u00a0 You can do that online at FamilyLifeToday.com.\u00a0\u00a0 When you fill out the online donation form type the word \u201cBUILD\u201d into the key code box to get the two study guides or call 1-800-FLTODAY.\u00a0\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOr to make a donation over the phone, and just say, I\u2019d like those <em>HomeBuilders Studies.<\/em>\u00a0 Againwe\u2019re happy to send them out to you and we so much appreciate your partnership with us here in the ministry of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow tomorrow we\u2019re going to be back to talk more with our guest Dr. Harry Schaumburg about the issue of sexual sin in marriage and how we can pursue sexual wholeness, and sexual maturity.\u00a0 I hope you can be with us for that conversation!\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today Keith Lynch and our entire broadcast production team on behalf of our host Dennis Rainey, I\u2019m Bob Lepine.\u00a0 We will see you back tomorrow for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHelp for today.\u00a0 Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts for you. However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright \u00a9 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>www.FamilyLife.com<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>"],"_seopress_titles_title":[""],"_seopress_titles_desc":[""],"_seopress_robots_index":[""],"duration":["00:"],"show_notes":[""],"_thumbnail_id":["294104"],"filesize":["22.06M"],"filesize_raw":["23130445"],"_uag_css_file_name":["uag-css-302013.css"],"_uag_js_file_name":["uag-js-302013.js"],"_uag_page_assets":["a:9:{s:3:\"css\";s:82560:\".wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-top svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-top .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-bottom svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-bottom .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f 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you have a healthy view of sex?","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2010-04-13.pdf","transcript_content":"<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Harry:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Your female body \u2013 your male body was created in the image of God.\u00a0 It has incredible value.\u00a0 So, it\u2019s giving that kind of foundation and really understanding that the body is the Lord\u2019s.\u00a0 That your eight year old body, your eighteen-year-old body, your thirty-eight year old body is not your body Paul says.\u00a0 It\u2019s been bought with a price.\u00a0 It doesn\u2019t belong to you and this gets to the issue of self-centeredness \u2013 you can\u2019t do what you want with your body.\u00a0 You don\u2019t have the right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Tuesday, April 13.\u00a0 Our host is the President of FamilyLife Dennis Rainey and I\u2019m Bob Lepine.\u00a0 There\u2019s a lot more we need to do as parents to get our children ready to understand their sexuality than teaching them to just say no.\u00a0 We\u2019ll talk about that today. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWelcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> thanks for joining us.\u00a0 We\u2019re spending some time this week trying to dig into what \u2013 I don\u2019t know if it\u2019s a bigger problem or we\u2019re just more aware of it or I guess it seems like every year it just gets bigger and bigger, and bigger.\u00a0 It\u2019s the issue of sexual sin in the culture, in a marriage relationship.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 And in raising boys and girls today.\u00a0 They\u2019re being exposed to stuff at earlier and earlier ages and man it just feels like we\u2019re raising kids in a real danger zone today.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Well, and I guess that\u2019s part of the reason that it feels more oppressive because every year it seems the culture in which we live gets more highly sexualized.\u00a0 I think we need to say right up here at the front of the program that our listeners may want to direct the attention of younger listeners away because we are going to explore this subject today and try to do it in an appropriate way but one that parents may want to have their kids thinking about other things for the next few minutes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 I think that\u2019s wise counsel Bob, and we have with us a guest in the studio who has more than two decades experience in counseling people who struggle with the besetting sexual sins.\u00a0 Dr. Harry Schaumburg joins us again on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> \u2013 Harry welcome back.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Harry:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Thank you Dennis \u2013 good to be here!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Harry you\u2019ve written a book called:\u00a0 <em>Undefiled<\/em> which is subtitled <em>Redemption from Sexual Sins \u2013 Restoration for Broken Relationships.<\/em><em>\u00a0 <\/em>You actually have an intensive counseling session that you take couples through.\u00a0 How long does this intensive last?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Harry:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>This is a seven-day program that we currently do in Colorado where couples come and I counsel them individually.\u00a0 It\u2019s not group counseling, and we just take this problem and hit it head on.\u00a0 We\u2019ve been doing that for nearly two decades as you mentioned, and we have just seen some of the worst of the worst in terms of the darkness of sexual sin, and yet at the same time we\u2019ve seen peoples lives completely turned around \u2013 marriages saved in the process.\u00a0 So, it\u2019s been a hard ministry in terms of having to deal with the stuff you deal with but at the same time I take great satisfaction in being able to see God really change people almost literally before your eyes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 As we\u2019ve talked about this subject this week, and I think anytime we talk about this subject we tend to put it in kind of this classic scenario where it is the man who is involved in sexual sin, and it is his poor wife who is the one who is the bystander.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Or the victim!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes, or the victim.\u00a0 Have you seen situations in counseling where that\u2019s reversed?\u00a0 Where it is the wife who\u2019s involved in sexual sin?\u00a0 Are you seeing that grow in the culture today?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Harry:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>I think it\u2019s definitely growing in the culture \u2013 you know you look at some of the statistics and undefiled and women clearly in terms of the internet are bigger users of the cybersex world than men are.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 In what way?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Really \u2013 is this chatting that they\u2019re doing more than\u2026\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Harry:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>It\u2019s more than the images \u2013 yes that\u2019s important to make clear.\u00a0 You know men would be more typically looking at the sexual images that we equate with the Internet and visual sex pornography.\u00a0 Women are looking for sexual connection \u2013 relational I would call it false intimacy but it\u2019s relationship on the Internet.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI remember a woman that I counseled a number of years ago that was actually a missionary.\u00a0 She was a single woman and you know understandably had been lonely \u2013 been a faithful servant of God, had served several terms in the mission field, helped plant a church but at the same time had that in her 40\u2019s that loneliness of not having a companion that we would all understand even those of us who are married.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tShe went on the Internet and started chatting looking for that connection.\u00a0 She took it far enough where she actually met the man that she was communicating with, but wisely did not step over the line in terms of developing a physical relationship, and then went to her mission board and said, \u201cI really need help here I think I\u2019ve gone too far.\u201d\u00a0 We work with a number of missionary organizations who will then immediately send those people to our counseling program.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>In the context of the people you\u2019ve talked to over the years one of the things whenever we get into this subject on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> we\u2019re hearing from a lot more wives who are contacting us and saying, \u201cMy husband does not have strong sexual desire.\u201d\u00a0 Have you seen this be a developing issue in your two-three decades of practice?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Harry:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Yes I think it\u2019s still the minority where the man has the loss of sexual interest.\u00a0 What\u2019s interesting in all the cases where we\u2019ve counseled the man who\u2019s lost the sexual interest you always have a woman who has I would say a fairly normal sexual interest.\u00a0 I think we have in the church today a tremendous loss of the real meaning and value of sexual intimacy, and what God has really provided for a married couple.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Open that up a little bit what do you mean we\u2019ve lost the sense of what that is supposed to be?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Harry:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Well, I think it comes back to being self-centered \u2013 that we enter relationships to get what we want to get for ourselves.\u00a0 When you bring that into the bedroom it\u2019s not going to work.\u00a0 In the intimacy between a husband and wife there needs to be a real cherishing, a real respect on the part of the husband and wife, and there needs to be a giving, a caring, a tenderness, and a kindness.\u00a0 But, when you approach your wife more as an object as women use that term, I feel like an object \u2013 it\u2019s like is he present?\u00a0 Is he really there?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, she feels like an object, and not surprising she\u2019s lost sexual interest.\u00a0 The sexual dissatisfaction in marriage I think is really almost as significant a problem as we see the pornography.\u00a0 Because, I think we do need healthy sexual intimacy in marriage as a preventative measure.\u00a0 You see that clearly in I Corinthians 7.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>You tell a story about a couple: Jim and Carrie in your book\u00a0 - would you use them as a prototypical couple of what\u2019s taking place in a lot of marriages today, or would you say they\u2019re more of an exception?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Harry:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>They\u2019re very much the average couple that comes to our counseling program.\u00a0 It\u2019s a couple that the wife finds out \u2013 discovers the problem.\u00a0 The problem is pornography, and then often or maybe 50 percent of the time the wife finds out as with Jim and Carrie that there\u2019s more to it. He\u2019s actually had contact with these women via the Internet.\u00a0 This story takes a particular twist at the end of the book where they actually find out that one of their children has a problem.\u00a0 Their married daughter is unfaithful.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOne reason we chose that story is because we really want people to be concerned about their kids.\u00a0 We get so caught up in what\u2019s going on \u2013 this is my marriage, it\u2019s falling apart, there\u2019s this problem.\u00a0 We have to look beyond our own generation, and we have to say, what\u2019s happening to my children, and my adult children.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>And how they\u2019re being impacted by my sin!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Harry:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>By my sin, and we have to get ahead of the curve so to speak.\u00a0 We have to get out there I think on the level of prevention because they\u2019re really, really being hit and bombarded in today\u2019s world sexually.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>You mentioned that this is a prototypical couple, and you began by saying the guy\u2019s involved in pornography.\u00a0 In the average church in America today what percent of the adult men let\u2019s say above the age of 20 years old \u2013 what percentage of those men view pornography every month?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Harry:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>You know I have not seen hard statistics on what the percentage is but we have a couple of indicators that we mention in the book.\u00a0 One is a quote from Chuck Swindoll where he talks about as many as half the congregation struggling with Internet pornography is a likely possibility, and I think that\u2019s a fair estimate.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe work with one mission organization where 80 percent of their candidates for missionary service on voluntary questioning \u2013 men indicate that they have a problem with pornography.\u00a0 We had contact with a couple of other organizations where they said 100 percent of the candidates that they were interviewing for church plants \u2013 planting a church were struggling with pornography and the wives didn\u2019t even know about it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>100%?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Harry:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>100 percent.\u00a0 They said we have yet to interview a young man for church planting in our organization who hasn\u2019t had a problem with pornography.\u00a0 They were interviewing across denominational lines \u2013 a number of different denominations. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>You know here\u2019s an application from today\u2019s broadcast for a mom and a dad who are raising a daughter who perhaps is about to be married.\u00a0 If you\u2019re talking to the young man who\u2019s about to marry your daughter the question is not have you seen any pornography \u2013 the question is kind of share with me your history of how much pornography you viewed?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThen with your sons \u2013 I think the question has to be broached with our sons.\u00a0 What would you say to your son today if you had a 18, 19 year old man young about to go away to college Harry. What kind of conversation would you have, and tell me a little bit about how you\u2019d set that conversation up?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Harry:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>I would have a conversation about what has he already seen, not what is he going to see in college.\u00a0 I think we need to be talking about what has he been exposed to in the Internet, what has he been exposed to through the process of sexting on cell phones with other teenagers while he\u2019s been in high school?\u00a0 We need to find out what\u2019s already been going on.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think the whole world of hooking up on the college campus now is just something that\u2019s very hard for those of us who are older who went to a different type of college so to speak.\u00a0 So, I want to talk to him about what is sexuality in a God honoring way.\u00a0\u00a0 What is your body really about\u00a0 - that your body is for the Lord, the Lord is for the body Paul talks about in 1 Corinthians.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, I think we have to use some tools like covenant eyes \u2013 things that will give accountability to where he\u2019s been on the computer.\u00a0 But, those are tools that are effective, but they don\u2019t really get down to the heart of the problem.\u00a0 So, I want my son, I want the young man I\u2019m talking to in my church \u2013 I want him to really be grounded spiritually in terms of where he\u2019s at.\u00a0 And again, looking at issues of self-centeredness.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>You mentioned covenant eyes.\u00a0 I don\u2019t know how many of our listeners know about this but this is an accountability program where voluntarily you set up with an accountability partner an agreement where once a week you\u2019re going to get an e-mail showing where you\u2019ve been on the Internet or if you\u2019re going someplace you ought not go I think an e-mail goes out right away to your accountability partner and says warning there\u2019s something going on here.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>It\u2019s actual software that you put in your computer that sets up this accountability relationship.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Right, and they don\u2019t provide the accountability partner you have to find your own accountability partner, but the idea is you have somebody in the battle with you, and that accountability is one safeguard against sin isn\u2019t it?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Harry:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>And, the neat thing is if you delete the program from your computer it shuts down your access to the Internet.\u00a0 The only way you can get back onto the Internet through that computer is you have to call covenant eyes and explain to them how you accidentally deleted this from your computer.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>We have a link on our web site to the covenant eyes web site so if folks want to find out more they can come to FamilyLifeToday.com and they can find out more about covenant eyes by going there.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThese kinds of tools are just that \u2013 they\u2019re tools \u2013 they\u2019re not going to fix the problem because the problem is not with your computer.\u00a0 The problem\u2019s your own eyes, and your own heart isn\u2019t it?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Well, and to that point you speak about in your book about how there is a need today \u2013 and I really like the term you use here \u2013 I don\u2019t think I\u2019ve ever heard anyone use it.\u00a0 You call men and women to become sexually mature.\u00a0 You know that really makes sense.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAs I read that I thought when did I become sexually mature?\u00a0 It wasn\u2019t as I moved through puberty on into adolescence.\u00a0 It was later on in marriage after I\u2019d made in my opinion some really dumb decisions with Barbara and been selfish in our relationship.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI saw how that wounded my wife, and you know these are things you\u2019ve written about for the past decade \u2013 calling people to true intimacy and true maturity.\u00a0 But, if you would unpack that concept a little bit as well Harry.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Harry:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Yes, sexual maturity is to me a very, very, very important concept.\u00a0 I think what we\u2019ve done, and it\u2019s a disservice is we\u2019ve said, \u201cWell, be a virgin when you get married.\u201d\u00a0 Well, that\u2019s a good thing, and I would certainly encourage anyone\u2019s son or daughter to maintain their virginity, but that\u2019s not maturity.\u00a0 In fact I think sometimes that commitment to maintain your virginity doesn\u2019t work because there\u2019s no maturity.\u00a0 So, I think maturity comes back to who am I really sexually as a being created in the image of God.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHere\u2019s the challenge \u2013 how do you explain that to an eight-year old so that you begin to develop at a very young age because if they\u2019re going to be exposed to pornography at age eight \u2013 how do you begin to develop maturity in an eight-year old?\u00a0 So, it\u2019s age specific.\u00a0 What does that eight-year old need to understand about their body\u00a0 - their sexuality?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNumber one and obviously but I think we have to say it is that your sexual body\u2014 your female body, your male body\u2014was created in the image of God.\u00a0 It has incredible value.\u00a0 We need to start talking about that your body; who you are anatomically, is created for God\u2019s purpose in a marriage \u2013 not outside of marriage \u2013 nothing before marriage.\u00a0 It doesn\u2019t belong to you.\u00a0 This gets to the issue of self-centeredness.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou can\u2019t do what you want with your body.\u00a0 You don\u2019t have the right.\u00a0 Of course everything around us is saying I have to right to do what I want with my body, and the Bible says, \u201cNo, you don\u2019t \u201c!\u00a0 So, I think that\u2019s the direction towards maturity and then of course the proper expression of sex that gives in marriage rather than takes in marriages is very, very important.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Sexual maturity than is looking at how we\u2019re made in the image of God and not thinking negatively about our sex drive but thinking holistically from a biblical standpoint that God gave you this.\u00a0 It was to be protected until marriage and then to be used in a marriage relationship in a self denying way to respect and please your married partner.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>I think that\u2019s the issue.\u00a0 The self-denying, the selfless approach.\u00a0 I mean when I stop and think about what does sexual maturity look like, there are a lot of married folks who understand the anatomy and who understand all kinds of things about sexuality but they have not understood the selflessness and as a result they\u2019re sexually immature.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Harry:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Exactly \u2013 exactly!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>I\u2019d have to say, and again just reflecting back on my own life at this point \u2013 little honesty here.\u00a0 I think first ten years of my marriage I could not have described myself as being sexually mature.\u00a0 Now, was I growing?\u00a0 Yes, but I was growing through my mistakes and through the lessons I was learning.\u00a0 Now at age 62, I can kind of look back on it, and I say I have a few threads of maturity \u2013 sexual maturity.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Picked up a little along the way!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>A little along the way, and I look back with great satisfaction, but I also look back with some remorse at some of the mistakes I made.\u00a0 That ties into another term that you use in your book:\u00a0 Sexual redemption \u2013 because we all do fail we need the hope of sexual redemption \u2013 what\u2019s that?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Harry:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Well, if there\u2019s sexual maturity of course what we\u2019re saying is there\u2019s sexual immaturity.\u00a0 You can just put that in psychological terms, medical terms, clinical terms but if we\u2019re really looking at sexual maturity as tied into our selfishness\u00a0 - go back to the maturity issue I think what you\u2019re probably saying Dennis is that when I first got married, and certainly my story as well when I first got married I was more interested in what I could get.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHere\u2019s the proof that it was immature.\u00a0 How did you feel when you didn\u2019t get it?\u00a0 How upset did you get?\u00a0 How frustrated did you get because I couldn\u2019t get what I want.\u00a0 That sounds like immaturity.\u00a0 Hopefully as a mature man when I can\u2019t get what I want I can handle that in a more appropriate way.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWell, if that\u2019s what we\u2019re talking about in terms of immaturity then sexual redemption is addressing the sin of that \u2013 the self-centeredness of that.\u00a0 It\u2019s the application of what God does to transform a sinful heart.\u00a0 It\u2019s taking the righteousness of Christ and it\u2019s imparting it to us at a deeper level that we become more holy in who we are- certainly holy in our sexuality but in all spirituality we\u2019re a more mature person.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>I\u2019m just listening to you here and I\u2019m thinking I wish it hadn\u2019t taken so long.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t(laughter)\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>You\u2019d like to start all over again wouldn\u2019t you?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Barbara and I have said this many times, and I know all three of us will identify with this statement here.\u00a0 Oh course I am because I\u2019m going to make it!\u00a0 But, I really wouldn\u2019t want to swap out with a newly married couple today for all the passion and all the youth that comes with a young couple starting out their marriage relationship.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI really like this.\u00a0 We\u2019re approaching 38 years of marriage together, and there\u2019s a safety, a security, a sense of growth and satisfaction that really is sweet.\u00a0 It really is satisfying.\u00a0 I have to say though I do regret some of those points that you\u2019re talking about:\u00a0 The selfishness that really needed redeeming.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Harry:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Yes, I\u2019ll be married 41 years coming up here soon, and I totally agree with you Dennis.\u00a0 I think when we look back at some of the things we were doing as younger couples\u00a0 - yes, I was a virgin when I got married, but it\u2019s maturity more than that.\u00a0 I look at young couples now or I look at a guy who\u2019s my age or 50, and he\u2019s had an affair with a woman 20 years younger, and I think what are you doing?\u00a0\u00a0 That doesn\u2019t make any sense.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tA 20 year old is a 20 year old.\u00a0 Why would you want to have an affair even with a 20 year old?\u00a0 There\u2019s something about the intimacy, and the fulfillment with a mature woman.\u00a0 A woman who is mature spiritually.\u00a0 A woman who is mature physically, and sexually, and relationally, and that you have been connected in purity for 40 years.\u00a0 I\u2019m sorry there\u2019s no competition to that!\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>You know I think a lot of people hear our conversation, and they may pick up a copy of your book, and they\u2019ll think well okay, I don\u2019t need this because I\u2019m not in bondage to some kind of sexual sin.\u00a0 The reality is if we want our sexuality to be all God intended it to be all of us have issues whether it\u2019s the selfishness Dennis has been talking about or little pet sins that we keep hidden away related to our sexuality.\u00a0 This is a book that I think every married couple could read together in pursuit of the kind of sexual relationship that God blesses in the Song of Solomon when he says, \u201cEnjoy\u201d to the lovers there.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe book\u2019s called: <em>Undefiled. <\/em>\u00a0We have it in our FamilyLife Today Resource Center.\u00a0 You can go online at FamilyLifeToday.com to request a copy \u2013 again the web site FamilyLifeToday.com or you can call toll-free 1-800-FLTODAY ask about the book <em>Undefiled<\/em>, and we\u2019ll let you know how you can get a copy of it sent to you.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAgain, even if you\u2019re starting out in your marriage relationship and this is an area that\u2019s creating some tension or some challenges for you Harry\u2019s book could be a great help.\u00a0 So, go online at FamilyLifeToday.com or call 1-800-FL-TODAY, and we\u2019ll make arrangements to get a copy to you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, do you know who made today\u2019s radio program possible?\u00a0 Well, there were three groups of people \u2013 there\u2019s your local Christian radio station \u2013 they made the airtime available to us.\u00a0 There\u2019s our team here at FamilyLife\u2014the group that arranges for these interviews, and does the production work once the recording is done.\u00a0 And then there\u2019s you \u2013 those of you who listen to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, and particularly those of you who from time to time will make a donation to help keep the program on the air.\u00a0 You really are partners both with the radio station and with us in making <em>FamilyLife Today <\/em>possible in your community.\u00a0 We appreciate your financial support of the ministry.\u00a0 We couldn\u2019t do without it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThis month if you\u2019re able to help with a donation of any amount to support the ministry of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> and to keep us on the air here in this community we would love to send you as a thank you gift two copies of the new <em>HomeBuilders <\/em>Study Guidecalled<em> Building Your Marriage to Last<\/em>.\u00a0 It\u2019s completely revised and updated.\u00a0\u00a0 It\u2019s a great guide to go through as a couple to help strengthen your marriage or it\u2019s something you could use with other couples in a small group setting.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAgain the two <em>HomeBuilders <\/em>Study Guidesare our thank you gift to you this month when you support the ministry of <em>FamilyLife Today <\/em>with a donation of any amount.\u00a0 You can do that online at FamilyLifeToday.com.\u00a0\u00a0 When you fill out the online donation form type the word \u201cBUILD\u201d into the key code box to get the two study guides or call 1-800-FLTODAY.\u00a0\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOr to make a donation over the phone, and just say, I\u2019d like those <em>HomeBuilders Studies.<\/em>\u00a0 Againwe\u2019re happy to send them out to you and we so much appreciate your partnership with us here in the ministry of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow tomorrow we\u2019re going to be back to talk more with our guest Dr. Harry Schaumburg about the issue of sexual sin in marriage and how we can pursue sexual wholeness, and sexual maturity.\u00a0 I hope you can be with us for that conversation!\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today Keith Lynch and our entire broadcast production team on behalf of our host Dennis Rainey, I\u2019m Bob Lepine.\u00a0 We will see you back tomorrow for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHelp for today.\u00a0 Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts for you. However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright \u00a9 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>www.FamilyLife.com<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>","theme_header_position":"","post_header_is_sticky":"","is_header_overlay":""},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/302013","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/91"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=302013"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/294104"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=302013"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=302013"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=302013"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=302013"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=302013"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=302013"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}