{"id":302010,"date":"2010-04-08T11:00:00","date_gmt":"2010-04-08T15:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/stopping-a-toxic-relationship-the-truth\/"},"modified":"2010-04-08T11:00:00","modified_gmt":"2010-04-08T15:00:00","slug":"stopping-a-toxic-relationship-the-truth","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/stopping-a-toxic-relationship-the-truth\/","title":{"rendered":"Stopping a Toxic Relationship: The Truth"},"content":{"rendered":"","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Are all conflicts created equal?  Not necessarily, especially if you\u2019re in a toxic relationship, according to  Christian counselor Leslie Vernick.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2010-04-08.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:","filesize":"24.08M","filesize_raw":"25245635","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2860,2873],"tags":[2949,5143,5144],"podcast_series":[7719],"cwp_profile":[3229],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-302010","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-hardship-and-suffering","category-mental-and-emotional-issues","tag-abuse","tag-emotional-abuse","tag-emotional-destructive-relationships","podcast_series-the-emotionally-destructive-relationship","cwp_profile-leslie-vernick","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/302010\/stopping-a-toxic-relationship-the-truth","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/302010\/stopping-a-toxic-relationship-the-truth","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"VpPkYOF9h1\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/stopping-a-toxic-relationship-the-truth\/\">Stopping a Toxic Relationship: The Truth<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/stopping-a-toxic-relationship-the-truth\/embed\/#?secret=VpPkYOF9h1\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Stopping a Toxic Relationship: The Truth&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"VpPkYOF9h1\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2010-04-08.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2010-04-08.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Leslie Vernick is Christian counselor who remembers very well sitting down with Cynthia, a wife who was in an emotionally destructive marriage relationship.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Her husband was continually deceitful.\u00a0 He had committed a number of affairs and had no real remorse for them.\u00a0 He was indifferent to their relationship.\u00a0 She had to do all the work, all the care of the children, manage all the finances, and he kind of just lived as a single person but with the perks of married life.\u00a0 So I told her, \u201cCynthia, change begins with you.\u00a0 So the question you need to begin to ask yourself \u2018Why are you willing to live with a man who treats you this way?\u2019\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Thursday, April 8<sup>th<\/sup>. Our host is the President of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey and I'm Bob Lepine.\u00a0 What do you do if you find yourself in that kind of a relationship?\u00a0 What are the questions you need to be asking yourself?\u00a0 We\u2019re going to talk about those today.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, thanks for joining us.\u00a0 We\u2019re spending some time this week unpacking what can be toxic relationships.\u00a0 I guess one of the questions I have as we work our way through this, Dennis is, how can you tell when you\u2019re in a normal garden variety relationship with another sinner, and some of that sin oozes out from time to time, versus being in a relationship that is toxic and destructive and you need to get some real help for it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Yes, and you need to do some serious dealing with God and how you\u2019re damaging another person, or how you are being damaged.\u00a0 I want to read a quote that is in a book we\u2019re going to talk about today.\u00a0 The name of the book is <em>The Emotionally Destructive Relationship<\/em>, by Leslie Vernick.\u00a0 Leslie joins us again on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\u00a0 Leslie, welcome back.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Thanks for letting me be here.\u00a0 I really appreciate that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Leslie is a counselor; she\u2019s a speaker, author of a number of books.\u00a0 She and her husband, Howard have two adult children.\u00a0 Your book is really broken into three parts: seeing it, (that is destructive behavior) stopping it, and then surviving it.\u00a0 We\u2019re going to talk about stopping it today.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tC.S. Lewis though, this is a great quote, I love this quote.\u00a0 I have never seen this before, Leslie.\u00a0 But, let\u2019s see if Bob has.\u00a0 He says, \u201cIt may be hard for an egg to turn into a bird.\u00a0 It would be a jolly sight harder for it to learn to fly while remaining an egg.\u00a0 We are like eggs at present, and you cannot go indefinitely being just an ordinary, decent egg.\u00a0 We must be hatched or go bad\u201d.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>I love that quote because I think it\u2019s so hard sometimes for people to understand how change works.\u00a0 It\u2019s a process, but we move from egg to chicken to fly.\u00a0 We can\u2019t go from egg to fly.\u00a0 So when we understand the process, then we can stop beating ourselves up.\u00a0 That maybe it\u2019s not where we want to be, but we can move from where we used to be, and there\u2019s this in-between place.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Before we dig in and talk about how we turn the tide, how we navigate change in an emotionally destructive relationship, is it even important whether we identify the level of destruction that\u2019s taking place?\u00a0 I talked about this, kind of garden variety sinful pattern.\u00a0 I mean I\u2019ve said things to my wife that I wish I hadn\u2019t said, that have been hurtful, or harmful.\u00a0 She\u2019s said things to me that she wishes she hadn\u2019t said.\u00a0 I wouldn\u2019t say we\u2019re in an emotionally destructive relationship.\u00a0 Is it important to hang a label on that or do we just recognize that wherever we are, we want to get better?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>I think that\u2019s part of the key, is to recognize that both of you recognize that you\u2019ve said things that are harmful to each other.\u00a0 James tells us in James 3:2, \u201cWe all stumble in many ways.\u201d\u00a0 So we aren\u2019t going to live with perfect people, and we\u2019re going to live with people who are broken just like us and say bad things.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut, a healthy person when they recognize that they\u2019ve sinned against another person, because they see that person\u2019s hurt or because that person has said, that you hurt me, they own it. They take responsibility for it, and they work at changing it.\u00a0 An unhealthy person won\u2019t see it, they will blame you for it, they won\u2019t take any responsibility for it and they repeat it over and over again.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe difference between a healthy relationship or a destructive relationship, or a difficult relationship, is one of safety.\u00a0 I think when you feel safe enough to say \u201cOuch!\u201d to somebody, \u201cThat really hurt me.\u201d\u00a0 And the other person says, \u201cYou know, I shouldn\u2019t have said that.\u201d\u00a0 I was tired or I lost my temper, I need to get better control of my temper, my words\u2026 whatever.\u00a0 Then you can move on.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut when someone doesn\u2019t feel even safe enough to tell someone \u201cThat really hurt me,\u201d or \u201cThat really bothers me,\u201d\u00a0 they can\u2019t express their opinion, they can\u2019t be who they are because who they are is unacceptable to the other person.\u00a0 Then it becomes a real destructive relationship.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>We were chuckling for just a minute before we came on the air here, about the fact that your mother called you a \u201cnincompoop\u201d when you were growing up.\u00a0 Repeatedly right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Oh yes.\u00a0 But I was just reflecting, she could have probably done it in a little more respectful manner, but I knew my mom loved me.\u00a0 My mom and I had a great relationship and it was more of an affectionate term that was saying \u201cSon, straighten up.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>You didn\u2019t walk away going, \u201cOuch,\u201d or you didn\u2019t walk away thinking, I really am stupid.\u00a0 Did you?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>No.\u00a0 Again, I don\u2019t think so.\u00a0 I mean, as much as I can tell today.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Leslie here\u2019s my question in all of this.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>A few years have passed since then, you know.\u00a0 It\u2019s like we all carry these little words with us that were said to us by our parents, and some of the statements they made.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Is it possible that in some relationships there\u2019s playful banter that takes place that in another relationship the same kind of pattern would be abusive but in this one it\u2019s not.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Absolutely as long as both people are in agreement of it.\u00a0 If both people are okay with it, and it\u2019s not hurting anybody and they\u2019re getting something out of their system and they\u2019re fighting and they can manage that without either one of them feeling like they\u2019re scared or they can\u2019t take it or they\u2019re falling apart, or it inhibits their growth, or that damages them, then it\u2019s okay.\u00a0 I think everybody\u2019s pain threshold is different, whether it\u2019s for physical pain, or relational pain, or emotional pain.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI remember when I had my first child we were into the Lamaze.\u00a0 I was going to have this natural childbirth.\u00a0 All my friends were telling me, it\u2019s a piece of cake, you can do it, and I couldn\u2019t.\u00a0 I couldn\u2019t do it.\u00a0 Ten hours later I was saying, \u201cGive me drugs!\u00a0 I want drugs now!\u201d\u00a0 I felt like such a failure, because for whatever reason, my pain threshold was lower, or I was more sensitive or it hurt me more, or maybe they could take it longer.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think we do an injustice and we\u2019re very unfair to some people when maybe we could take that, and they can\u2019t.\u00a0 So we\u2019re saying, \u201cYou\u2019re just too sensitive,\u201d but if they\u2019re married to someone who is treating them that way, part of loving that person is to know that they\u2019re sensitive.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>There\u2019s part of me, as we talk about this, I\u2019m just a little concerned that some folks are going to go, \u201cYou know maybe I am in an emotionally destructive relationship.\u00a0 I thought I was okay until today.\u00a0 But maybe it is emotionally destructive.\u201d\u00a0 And what we\u2019re really done is made them more sensitive to something that they didn\u2019t need to be sensitive to.\u00a0 Does that make sense?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>I hear you and I think that\u2019s a possibility.\u00a0 If someone is looking to be a victim, they can find it.\u00a0 But there are times when cancer is growing and you don\u2019t know it\u2019s there.\u00a0 So we do need to define what it means.\u00a0 I think by taking the test, that you\u2019re offering on your website, people will have a clear idea.\u00a0 Is it just small potatoes or is this something that I\u2019ve felt for a long time and now I have a word to describe it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>The test you\u2019re talking about is from your book, <em>The Emotionally Destructive Relationship<\/em>.\u00a0 Thirty one questions that help somebody evaluate just how bad is this?\u00a0 It\u2019s on our website at FamilyLifeToday.com, if our listeners are interested in going there.\u00a0 This would be a helpful diagnostic tool for them.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>It would be good.\u00a0 I found it interesting, Leslie in your book that you have an entire section that is explaining biblical authority of headship and submission.\u00a0 Now, I\u2019ve got a sneaking suspicion that you have seen as a counselor a number of situations where men have overused their authority and where women have given men too much authority.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>I have, unfortunately, and I think some churches endorse that.\u00a0 I really wanted to be biblical in this book because I speak with so many women and men who are in destructive relationships and they try to go to the place that should give them the most help, which is the church.\u00a0 And they\u2019ve been misled, they\u2019ve been hurt more, they\u2019ve been told, \u201cWell, that\u2019s just how it is.\u00a0 God put him in charge, so you just have to obey and submit.\u201d\u00a0 Even if he\u2019s steering the whole family right off the edge of a cliff.\u00a0 You\u2019re not allowed to say \u201cno,\u201d you\u2019re not allowed to jump ship, you\u2019re not allowed to do anything but go over, and the whole kids and family and everybody goes over the cliff.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>We did a series of broadcasts here on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> a number of years, Bob\u2019s going to know exactly the ones I\u2019m talking about.\u00a0 We had a counselor from Southern California, and a deputy sheriff from Milwaukee, Wisconsin.\u00a0 We talked about abusive relationships where there was\u2026\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Where there was domestic violence.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Domestic violence.\u00a0 You\u2019ll not be surprised at what they said in that interview.\u00a0 They said, the place that fostered the most of this were extreme fundamentalist churches.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>I have seen a number of situations like that.\u00a0 I could go story after story after story so that\u2019s why I felt it was so important for me to clarify all these things with biblical terms.\u00a0 Because I want people who are strong believers, who are committed Christians, who are godly people who want to do what God wants them to do, that God has a plan for them, and he has a way for them to deal with this in a biblical way.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHeadship\u2014I just want to define this really clearly\u2014is not just getting your own way, which is oftentimes what men who claim headship scripture passages, \u201cThis means I get to make all the decisions.\u00a0 This means I get to do what I want to do and you have no right to contradict that.\u201d\u00a0 That\u2019s not what headship is biblically.\u00a0 Headship is a loving sacrificial service of the other person, and you get to do that first as the head.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSubmission is never something you can make someone do.\u00a0 Submission\u2014godly submission\u2014is done by the person who is doing the submitting and they do it willingly.\u00a0 So as soon as someone forces someone to submit, it\u2019s not biblical submission.\u00a0 It\u2019s called coercion, manipulation, force or rape sometimes.\u00a0 So it\u2019s not those terms.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Yes, I have to tell you a story; I think I\u2019ve shared this on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\u00a0 But, I\u2019ll never forget it.\u00a0 I was driving along with a friend of mine; he was in his first year of marriage.\u00a0 I just said, \u201cHow are things going with you and Cathy?\u201d\u00a0 He said, \u201cOh, we\u2019re doing all right.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHe said, \u201cShe\u2019s just not really submitting to me the way she ought to.\u201d\u00a0 I said, \u201cWell, that\u2019s interesting what makes you think she\u2019s supposed to?\u201d\u00a0 He looked at me like, \u201cWell you know the Bible.\u00a0 You\u2019ve read the Bible.\u201d\u00a0 I said, \u201cYes, there\u2019s one in the glove compartment.\u00a0 Get it out.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo he got it out and turned to Ephesians chapter five and I said, \u201cSo, what does it say there?\u201d\u00a0 He said, \u201cRight here, it says \u2018Wives submit\u2026\u2019\u201d\u00a0 I said, \u201cStop, what\u2019s the first word there?\u201d\u00a0 \u201cWives.\u201d\u00a0 I said, \u201cAre you a wife?\u201d\u00a0 He said, \u201cNo.\u201d\u00a0 I said, \u201cOK, move on, that verse isn\u2019t for you then.\u00a0 You go onto the one that says \u2018husbands\u2019 and read that part.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tMy point\u2014he laughed, he knew what I was trying to say\u2014my point is it\u2019s not your job if you\u2019re a wife to get your husband to lead, or if you\u2019re a husband to get your wife to submit.\u00a0 It\u2019s your responsibility to do what God\u2019s called you to do.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Leslie, let\u2019s say right now, there is a woman who is listening to this broadcast and she\u2019s all of a sudden moved very close to the radio, or to her iPod or her computer.\u00a0 And she\u2019s going, I think I\u2019m in a relationship where I\u2019m being abused by a husband who is overreaching his authority and he\u2019s abusing me with it.\u00a0 How do you stop that?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Well, the beginning of change in a destructive relationship starts with you.\u00a0 You have to begin to identify and own your problem.\u00a0 You might say, \u201cThat\u2019s not my problem that he\u2019s acting that way.\u201d\u00a0 But when you\u2019re a repeated victim of someone, you have to begin to ask yourself what\u2019s your part?\u00a0 It might just be that you\u2019re not educated or you\u2019re too passive, or you\u2019ve believed the wrong things.\u00a0 There\u2019s something about that that\u2019s kept you in that destructive dance.\u00a0 You\u2019re afraid\u2026\u00a0 So when you begin to identify your part, then you can begin to make a change, because you can\u2019t change another person, you can only start by changing yourself.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>I want to speak to that for a second, because I\u2019m thinking of a relationship that I endured for the better part of two decades.\u00a0 What you just described was me.\u00a0 Now, here I am, I know the Bible.\u00a0 I\u2019ve written books about relationships, I teach about relationships but I was in a relationship\u2014not a close one, that was like my wife or my children, or immediate family\u2014but I was in a relationship that was not healthy.\u00a0 I really did keep on allowing that to occur.\u00a0 So I\u2019ve been there.\u00a0 It\u2019s interesting how we can continue to walk into this thing and be abused over and over and over again.\u00a0 It\u2019s almost like sheep to the slaughter.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>You tell the story in your book about a woman you identify as Cynthia who came to you who was at this end point in her relationship with her husband.\u00a0 And you had to coach her through how to stop it.\u00a0 Right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong>\u00a0 I had to coach her through how to stop it and she represents so many other women that I talk with.\u00a0 She wanted to come to counseling for me to somehow give her some magic bullet that would help her to change her husband.\u00a0 I had to help her to understand that I didn\u2019t have that magic bullet; all I could do was help her to stop herself from putting up with this kind of relationship.\u00a0 She was afraid to do that.\u00a0 But she couldn\u2019t begin to change it until she was willing to look at herself first.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>What was going on in her relationship with her husband?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Well, her husband was continually deceitful; he had committed a number of affairs.\u00a0 He had no real remorse for them.\u00a0 He was indifferent to their relationship, she had to do all the work, all the care of the children, manage all the finances, and he kind of just lived as a single person but with the perks of married life.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>So she comes and says, \u201cHow do I fix this?\u00a0 How do I fix him?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>\u201cGod wants us to have a good relationship, and I know that God hates divorce, and I really want this marriage to work, and how can I get him to change, and how can I get him to tell the truth?\u00a0 How can I get him to love me?\u201d\u00a0 All the kind of things that every woman longs for.\u00a0 But you can\u2019t make someone love you.\u00a0 You can\u2019t make someone be honest.\u00a0 You can\u2019t make someone change.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>So what did you tell her to do?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>So I told her \u201cCynthia, change begins with you, so the question you need to begin to ask yourself is \u2018Why are you willing to live with a man who treats you this way?\u2019\u201d\u00a0 And she said, \u201cI don\u2019t know.\u00a0 Because I think God wants me to.\u00a0 I\u2019m supposed to stay here.\u201d\u00a0 It was very difficult for her to begin to look at what her part of it was.\u00a0 Loving someone isn\u2019t just allowing them to continue to sin against you with no protest.\u00a0 Loving them well\u2014biblically means that you begin to speak the truth in love into their life.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt might mean hard words\u2014it doesn\u2019t need to be harsh words.\u00a0 I coach people through the book on how to speak up the first step of learning to end this destructive dance, is that you need to begin to speak up, you need to begin to say, \u201cthis isn\u2019t acceptable. This hurts me.\u00a0 This is destructive to our relationship.\u00a0 This is destructive to you and we need to get help to turn this relationship around.\u00a0 Are you willing?\u2019\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Yes, and it\u2019s interesting as we look at the bible, we know we\u2019re commanded to love our enemies.\u00a0 I think sometimes, and this is what happened in my twenty-year-long relationship, I was doing my best to model to this other person what Christian love was all about.\u00a0 But as it became clear that I was being manipulated, taken advantage of, and really abused, I realized that there was a time that I had draw a line in the sand and say, \u201cNo more.\u00a0 You\u2019re not going to do that to me anymore.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>You\u2019re saying to the other person, \u201cI\u2019m not going to let you do this because it\u2019s not right for you, as well as being hurtful to me.\u00a0 It\u2019s not loving to you to let you continue in that pattern.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Right and the key thing was, I had a choice to be able to draw that line in the sand, and then I had to, as you said earlier, Bob, \u201cbuck up.\u201d\u00a0 I had to stand up and be courageous to stick to it, and not keep walking into an abusive situation to be take advantage of.\u00a0 In my situation, the way I handled it, was I took a friend with me.\u00a0 I took a partner who went with me into the relationship and in the process helped me stay on the right side of the line in the sand.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>I think it would be really helpful right now to talk about what is a healthy relationship.\u00a0 The difference between a healthy relationship or a destructive relationship is one in which there\u2019s mutual caring, mutual honesty, and mutual respect.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf we just talk about respect, one of the things that I\u2019ve found in a relationship that\u2019s been destructive in my life is that this person, whenever I say no, there\u2019s this manipulative guilt that comes in.\u00a0 There\u2019s these boundary pushings.\u00a0 I\u2019m not allowed to say no.\u00a0 I\u2019m not allowed to have boundaries or I\u2019m a bad person.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo it doesn\u2019t lend to a healthy relationship.\u00a0 The operative word here in mutual caring, mutual honest and mutual respect is \u201cmutual.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, we can have ministry to certain people, who may have needs and God calls us to minister to our enemies.\u00a0 But, don\u2019t confuse that with healthy relationship, and that\u2019s what you begin to say.\u00a0 \u201cI can\u2019t have a healthy relationship with this person.\u00a0 I may be able to minister to them here and there, but I can\u2019t have this relationship.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>I think what you just summarized there is very important because, that was the conclusion I came to.\u00a0 Number one, I was kidding myself to think I could have healthy relationship with someone where there couldn\u2019t be any mutual love and respect.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>It wasn\u2019t happening.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>They wanted you to care for them but they weren\u2019t caring for you.\u00a0 Right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Exactly.\u00a0 But secondly I had to come to the conclusion that I couldn\u2019t have a relationship at all.\u00a0 Now, it\u2019s one thing, Leslie, if the person I\u2019m relating to is miles away and I\u2019m not in marriage with them.\u00a0 But speak to the person right now, who\u2019s married to the person who, first they realize they can\u2019t have a healthy relationship and secondly they\u2019re not even sure they can achieve a real relationship with them.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>That is the dilemma and you can make a marriage better all by yourself.\u00a0 You cannot make a marriage work or a marriage good all by yourself.\u00a0 It takes mutual effort, mutual caring, mutual honesty, and mutual respect.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, I think sometimes the burden of making a marriage good has been put on someone\u2019s shoulders as their sole responsibility and they\u2019ve taken it, and it\u2019s not possible.\u00a0 So, I think one of the things we need to do is just help people understand what it takes to have a good healthy relationship.\u00a0 If someone is in that situation though, especially in a marriage, what I coach them to do is, if they begin to get healthier, then they can begin to invite their partner into healthy change.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBecause, when you\u2019re in a marriage, you\u2019re sort of like dancing with somebody.\u00a0 When you\u2019re dancing with someone, and it\u2019s fine with them that they\u2019re stepping on your toes, and they\u2019re kicking you in the shins, but it\u2019s not fine with you, you need to begin to speak up and say, \u201cThis hurts me, I don\u2019t like this.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd, oftentimes, if you\u2019ve never done that before, and you\u2019ve been in a destructive relationship, if the other person cares about you, they will begin to hear you.\u00a0 Sometimes they don\u2019t, and you need to up the ante.\u00a0 That\u2019s when you begin to stand up and say, I can\u2019t allow myself to be treated this way anymore.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>You know, it\u2019s really interesting, I\u2019ve now lived enough life that I still have a lot of idealism, but it\u2019s been edited by reality.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Yes, me too.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Relationships are probably the number one editor of reality in my life.\u00a0 It doesn\u2019t mean we should lose our hope.\u00a0 And it doesn\u2019t mean we should revert to fleshly ways of dealing with relationships.\u00a0 In fact as you were talking, I was thinking about a passage in Romans 12 that says, \u201cNever be conceited, repay no one evil for evil.\u00a0 But give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all.\u201d\u00a0 Then it adds something that you alluded to a little earlier.\u00a0 \u201cIf possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all.\u201d\u00a0 It goes on to say, \u201cBeloved, never avenge yourselves; leave room for the wrath of God.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think sometimes we lose sight of who God is in these relationships.\u00a0 It may be at points that we need to take a step back and pray for the person who is abusing us.\u00a0 And pray that God will not necessarily get even, but get his attention, or get her attention, and begin to take a step back and get healthy in your relationship with that other person.\u00a0 Because, if you don\u2019t, you\u2019re going to keep on walking in there as I described how I did it for 20 years, and you\u2019re going to keep on getting hurt.\u00a0 You\u2019re going to leave that relationship going, \u201cMan how can I do a better job of loving?\u00a0 How can I help this person come to a faith in Christ?\u201d\u00a0 It\u2019s not all dependent on you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Well, and as we\u2019ve said here, it\u2019s in part about getting help for yourself, for your own physical or emotional safety.\u00a0 But it\u2019s also about how can I boldly love another person.\u00a0 Sometimes the boldest way to love is to say, \u201cNo.\u00a0 No more.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Is to bow up, look them in the eye, or write a letter, or draw that line in the sand, and say, \u201cThat kind of treatment of me is not going to happen.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Yes.\u00a0 That\u2019s what loving confrontation, which the Bible talks about, speaking the truth in love to another person, that\u2019s what it ought to look like.\u00a0 It\u2019s what you outline for folks in your book, <em>The Emotionally Destructive Relationship<\/em>: <em>Seeing it, stopping it and surviving it.<\/em><em>\u00a0 <\/em>We\u2019ve got copies of the book in our FamilyLife Today Resource Center.\u00a0 I want to encourage our listeners.\u00a0 If what you\u2019ve heard today sounds familiar, go online to get a copy of the book <em>The Emotionally Destructive Relationship.<\/em>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOur website FamilyLifeToday.com, FamilyLifeToday.com, you can order online from us if you\u2019d like.\u00a0 Or call 1-800-FLTODAY, 1-800-358-6329, that\u2019s 1-800 F as in \u201cfamily\u201d L as in \u201clife\u201d and then the word TODAY.\u00a0 Ask about Leslie\u2019s book and we\u2019ll make arrangements to get a copy sent out to you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to say a word of thanks, if I can to those listeners who by their support of the ministry of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, make it possible for us to tackle subjects like this here on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, and to try to provide hope and help for folks who are in very difficult relational situations.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are listener supported.\u00a0 As a ministry almost two-thirds of the revenue that we receive comes from donations from folks like you.\u00a0 So obviously without those donations, we wouldn\u2019t be on this radio station.\u00a0 There\u2019s a lot that would get shut down, and we appreciate those of you who do stand with us and help support us with your donations. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThis month, if you\u2019re able to help support the ministry of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> with a donation of any amount, we\u2019d like to send you as a thank you gift, two copies of the brand new, recently revised and updated HomeBuilders\u00ae study guides on <em>Building Your Marriage to Last<\/em>.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThese are study guides the two of you can go through as a couple, or you can use it in a small group setting with other couples.\u00a0 When you make your donation online at FamilyLifeToday.com, if you\u2019d like to receive the HomeBuilders\u00ae study guides on <em>Building Your Marriage to Last<\/em>,just type the word \u201cBUILD\u201d in the key code box that you find on the online donation form.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOr call, 1-800-FLTODAY, then make your donation over the phone and just ask for a copy of the study guides we talked about on the radio.\u00a0 We\u2019re happy to send those out to you, and we do appreciate your partnership with here in the ministry of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTomorrow Leslie Vernick is going to be back with us, and I think our listeners are going to be encouraged by some of what you have to share about your relationship with your mom.\u00a0 But we\u2019ve got a lot more to talk about as it relates to emotionally destructive relationships.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today Keith Lynch and our entire broadcast production team.\u00a0 On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I\u2019m Bob Lepine.\u00a0 We will see you back tomorrow for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHelp for today.\u00a0 Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts for you. However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright \u00a9 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>www.FamilyLife.com<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>"],"_seopress_titles_title":[""],"_seopress_titles_desc":[""],"_seopress_robots_index":[""],"duration":["00:"],"show_notes":[""],"_thumbnail_id":["294104"],"filesize":["24.08M"],"filesize_raw":["25245635"],"_uag_css_file_name":["uag-css-302010.css"],"_uag_js_file_name":["uag-js-302010.js"],"_uag_page_assets":["a:9:{s:3:\"css\";s:82560:\".wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-top svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-top .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-bottom svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-bottom .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f 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all conflicts created equal? Not necessarily, especially if you\u2019re in a toxic relationship, according to Christian counselor Leslie Vernick.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2010-04-08.pdf","transcript_content":"<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Leslie Vernick is Christian counselor who remembers very well sitting down with Cynthia, a wife who was in an emotionally destructive marriage relationship.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Her husband was continually deceitful.\u00a0 He had committed a number of affairs and had no real remorse for them.\u00a0 He was indifferent to their relationship.\u00a0 She had to do all the work, all the care of the children, manage all the finances, and he kind of just lived as a single person but with the perks of married life.\u00a0 So I told her, \u201cCynthia, change begins with you.\u00a0 So the question you need to begin to ask yourself \u2018Why are you willing to live with a man who treats you this way?\u2019\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Thursday, April 8<sup>th<\/sup>. Our host is the President of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey and I'm Bob Lepine.\u00a0 What do you do if you find yourself in that kind of a relationship?\u00a0 What are the questions you need to be asking yourself?\u00a0 We\u2019re going to talk about those today.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, thanks for joining us.\u00a0 We\u2019re spending some time this week unpacking what can be toxic relationships.\u00a0 I guess one of the questions I have as we work our way through this, Dennis is, how can you tell when you\u2019re in a normal garden variety relationship with another sinner, and some of that sin oozes out from time to time, versus being in a relationship that is toxic and destructive and you need to get some real help for it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Yes, and you need to do some serious dealing with God and how you\u2019re damaging another person, or how you are being damaged.\u00a0 I want to read a quote that is in a book we\u2019re going to talk about today.\u00a0 The name of the book is <em>The Emotionally Destructive Relationship<\/em>, by Leslie Vernick.\u00a0 Leslie joins us again on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\u00a0 Leslie, welcome back.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Thanks for letting me be here.\u00a0 I really appreciate that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Leslie is a counselor; she\u2019s a speaker, author of a number of books.\u00a0 She and her husband, Howard have two adult children.\u00a0 Your book is really broken into three parts: seeing it, (that is destructive behavior) stopping it, and then surviving it.\u00a0 We\u2019re going to talk about stopping it today.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tC.S. Lewis though, this is a great quote, I love this quote.\u00a0 I have never seen this before, Leslie.\u00a0 But, let\u2019s see if Bob has.\u00a0 He says, \u201cIt may be hard for an egg to turn into a bird.\u00a0 It would be a jolly sight harder for it to learn to fly while remaining an egg.\u00a0 We are like eggs at present, and you cannot go indefinitely being just an ordinary, decent egg.\u00a0 We must be hatched or go bad\u201d.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>I love that quote because I think it\u2019s so hard sometimes for people to understand how change works.\u00a0 It\u2019s a process, but we move from egg to chicken to fly.\u00a0 We can\u2019t go from egg to fly.\u00a0 So when we understand the process, then we can stop beating ourselves up.\u00a0 That maybe it\u2019s not where we want to be, but we can move from where we used to be, and there\u2019s this in-between place.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Before we dig in and talk about how we turn the tide, how we navigate change in an emotionally destructive relationship, is it even important whether we identify the level of destruction that\u2019s taking place?\u00a0 I talked about this, kind of garden variety sinful pattern.\u00a0 I mean I\u2019ve said things to my wife that I wish I hadn\u2019t said, that have been hurtful, or harmful.\u00a0 She\u2019s said things to me that she wishes she hadn\u2019t said.\u00a0 I wouldn\u2019t say we\u2019re in an emotionally destructive relationship.\u00a0 Is it important to hang a label on that or do we just recognize that wherever we are, we want to get better?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>I think that\u2019s part of the key, is to recognize that both of you recognize that you\u2019ve said things that are harmful to each other.\u00a0 James tells us in James 3:2, \u201cWe all stumble in many ways.\u201d\u00a0 So we aren\u2019t going to live with perfect people, and we\u2019re going to live with people who are broken just like us and say bad things.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut, a healthy person when they recognize that they\u2019ve sinned against another person, because they see that person\u2019s hurt or because that person has said, that you hurt me, they own it. They take responsibility for it, and they work at changing it.\u00a0 An unhealthy person won\u2019t see it, they will blame you for it, they won\u2019t take any responsibility for it and they repeat it over and over again.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe difference between a healthy relationship or a destructive relationship, or a difficult relationship, is one of safety.\u00a0 I think when you feel safe enough to say \u201cOuch!\u201d to somebody, \u201cThat really hurt me.\u201d\u00a0 And the other person says, \u201cYou know, I shouldn\u2019t have said that.\u201d\u00a0 I was tired or I lost my temper, I need to get better control of my temper, my words\u2026 whatever.\u00a0 Then you can move on.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut when someone doesn\u2019t feel even safe enough to tell someone \u201cThat really hurt me,\u201d or \u201cThat really bothers me,\u201d\u00a0 they can\u2019t express their opinion, they can\u2019t be who they are because who they are is unacceptable to the other person.\u00a0 Then it becomes a real destructive relationship.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>We were chuckling for just a minute before we came on the air here, about the fact that your mother called you a \u201cnincompoop\u201d when you were growing up.\u00a0 Repeatedly right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Oh yes.\u00a0 But I was just reflecting, she could have probably done it in a little more respectful manner, but I knew my mom loved me.\u00a0 My mom and I had a great relationship and it was more of an affectionate term that was saying \u201cSon, straighten up.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>You didn\u2019t walk away going, \u201cOuch,\u201d or you didn\u2019t walk away thinking, I really am stupid.\u00a0 Did you?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>No.\u00a0 Again, I don\u2019t think so.\u00a0 I mean, as much as I can tell today.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Leslie here\u2019s my question in all of this.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>A few years have passed since then, you know.\u00a0 It\u2019s like we all carry these little words with us that were said to us by our parents, and some of the statements they made.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Is it possible that in some relationships there\u2019s playful banter that takes place that in another relationship the same kind of pattern would be abusive but in this one it\u2019s not.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Absolutely as long as both people are in agreement of it.\u00a0 If both people are okay with it, and it\u2019s not hurting anybody and they\u2019re getting something out of their system and they\u2019re fighting and they can manage that without either one of them feeling like they\u2019re scared or they can\u2019t take it or they\u2019re falling apart, or it inhibits their growth, or that damages them, then it\u2019s okay.\u00a0 I think everybody\u2019s pain threshold is different, whether it\u2019s for physical pain, or relational pain, or emotional pain.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI remember when I had my first child we were into the Lamaze.\u00a0 I was going to have this natural childbirth.\u00a0 All my friends were telling me, it\u2019s a piece of cake, you can do it, and I couldn\u2019t.\u00a0 I couldn\u2019t do it.\u00a0 Ten hours later I was saying, \u201cGive me drugs!\u00a0 I want drugs now!\u201d\u00a0 I felt like such a failure, because for whatever reason, my pain threshold was lower, or I was more sensitive or it hurt me more, or maybe they could take it longer.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think we do an injustice and we\u2019re very unfair to some people when maybe we could take that, and they can\u2019t.\u00a0 So we\u2019re saying, \u201cYou\u2019re just too sensitive,\u201d but if they\u2019re married to someone who is treating them that way, part of loving that person is to know that they\u2019re sensitive.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>There\u2019s part of me, as we talk about this, I\u2019m just a little concerned that some folks are going to go, \u201cYou know maybe I am in an emotionally destructive relationship.\u00a0 I thought I was okay until today.\u00a0 But maybe it is emotionally destructive.\u201d\u00a0 And what we\u2019re really done is made them more sensitive to something that they didn\u2019t need to be sensitive to.\u00a0 Does that make sense?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>I hear you and I think that\u2019s a possibility.\u00a0 If someone is looking to be a victim, they can find it.\u00a0 But there are times when cancer is growing and you don\u2019t know it\u2019s there.\u00a0 So we do need to define what it means.\u00a0 I think by taking the test, that you\u2019re offering on your website, people will have a clear idea.\u00a0 Is it just small potatoes or is this something that I\u2019ve felt for a long time and now I have a word to describe it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>The test you\u2019re talking about is from your book, <em>The Emotionally Destructive Relationship<\/em>.\u00a0 Thirty one questions that help somebody evaluate just how bad is this?\u00a0 It\u2019s on our website at FamilyLifeToday.com, if our listeners are interested in going there.\u00a0 This would be a helpful diagnostic tool for them.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>It would be good.\u00a0 I found it interesting, Leslie in your book that you have an entire section that is explaining biblical authority of headship and submission.\u00a0 Now, I\u2019ve got a sneaking suspicion that you have seen as a counselor a number of situations where men have overused their authority and where women have given men too much authority.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>I have, unfortunately, and I think some churches endorse that.\u00a0 I really wanted to be biblical in this book because I speak with so many women and men who are in destructive relationships and they try to go to the place that should give them the most help, which is the church.\u00a0 And they\u2019ve been misled, they\u2019ve been hurt more, they\u2019ve been told, \u201cWell, that\u2019s just how it is.\u00a0 God put him in charge, so you just have to obey and submit.\u201d\u00a0 Even if he\u2019s steering the whole family right off the edge of a cliff.\u00a0 You\u2019re not allowed to say \u201cno,\u201d you\u2019re not allowed to jump ship, you\u2019re not allowed to do anything but go over, and the whole kids and family and everybody goes over the cliff.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>We did a series of broadcasts here on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> a number of years, Bob\u2019s going to know exactly the ones I\u2019m talking about.\u00a0 We had a counselor from Southern California, and a deputy sheriff from Milwaukee, Wisconsin.\u00a0 We talked about abusive relationships where there was\u2026\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Where there was domestic violence.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Domestic violence.\u00a0 You\u2019ll not be surprised at what they said in that interview.\u00a0 They said, the place that fostered the most of this were extreme fundamentalist churches.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>I have seen a number of situations like that.\u00a0 I could go story after story after story so that\u2019s why I felt it was so important for me to clarify all these things with biblical terms.\u00a0 Because I want people who are strong believers, who are committed Christians, who are godly people who want to do what God wants them to do, that God has a plan for them, and he has a way for them to deal with this in a biblical way.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHeadship\u2014I just want to define this really clearly\u2014is not just getting your own way, which is oftentimes what men who claim headship scripture passages, \u201cThis means I get to make all the decisions.\u00a0 This means I get to do what I want to do and you have no right to contradict that.\u201d\u00a0 That\u2019s not what headship is biblically.\u00a0 Headship is a loving sacrificial service of the other person, and you get to do that first as the head.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSubmission is never something you can make someone do.\u00a0 Submission\u2014godly submission\u2014is done by the person who is doing the submitting and they do it willingly.\u00a0 So as soon as someone forces someone to submit, it\u2019s not biblical submission.\u00a0 It\u2019s called coercion, manipulation, force or rape sometimes.\u00a0 So it\u2019s not those terms.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Yes, I have to tell you a story; I think I\u2019ve shared this on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\u00a0 But, I\u2019ll never forget it.\u00a0 I was driving along with a friend of mine; he was in his first year of marriage.\u00a0 I just said, \u201cHow are things going with you and Cathy?\u201d\u00a0 He said, \u201cOh, we\u2019re doing all right.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHe said, \u201cShe\u2019s just not really submitting to me the way she ought to.\u201d\u00a0 I said, \u201cWell, that\u2019s interesting what makes you think she\u2019s supposed to?\u201d\u00a0 He looked at me like, \u201cWell you know the Bible.\u00a0 You\u2019ve read the Bible.\u201d\u00a0 I said, \u201cYes, there\u2019s one in the glove compartment.\u00a0 Get it out.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo he got it out and turned to Ephesians chapter five and I said, \u201cSo, what does it say there?\u201d\u00a0 He said, \u201cRight here, it says \u2018Wives submit\u2026\u2019\u201d\u00a0 I said, \u201cStop, what\u2019s the first word there?\u201d\u00a0 \u201cWives.\u201d\u00a0 I said, \u201cAre you a wife?\u201d\u00a0 He said, \u201cNo.\u201d\u00a0 I said, \u201cOK, move on, that verse isn\u2019t for you then.\u00a0 You go onto the one that says \u2018husbands\u2019 and read that part.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tMy point\u2014he laughed, he knew what I was trying to say\u2014my point is it\u2019s not your job if you\u2019re a wife to get your husband to lead, or if you\u2019re a husband to get your wife to submit.\u00a0 It\u2019s your responsibility to do what God\u2019s called you to do.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Leslie, let\u2019s say right now, there is a woman who is listening to this broadcast and she\u2019s all of a sudden moved very close to the radio, or to her iPod or her computer.\u00a0 And she\u2019s going, I think I\u2019m in a relationship where I\u2019m being abused by a husband who is overreaching his authority and he\u2019s abusing me with it.\u00a0 How do you stop that?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Well, the beginning of change in a destructive relationship starts with you.\u00a0 You have to begin to identify and own your problem.\u00a0 You might say, \u201cThat\u2019s not my problem that he\u2019s acting that way.\u201d\u00a0 But when you\u2019re a repeated victim of someone, you have to begin to ask yourself what\u2019s your part?\u00a0 It might just be that you\u2019re not educated or you\u2019re too passive, or you\u2019ve believed the wrong things.\u00a0 There\u2019s something about that that\u2019s kept you in that destructive dance.\u00a0 You\u2019re afraid\u2026\u00a0 So when you begin to identify your part, then you can begin to make a change, because you can\u2019t change another person, you can only start by changing yourself.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>I want to speak to that for a second, because I\u2019m thinking of a relationship that I endured for the better part of two decades.\u00a0 What you just described was me.\u00a0 Now, here I am, I know the Bible.\u00a0 I\u2019ve written books about relationships, I teach about relationships but I was in a relationship\u2014not a close one, that was like my wife or my children, or immediate family\u2014but I was in a relationship that was not healthy.\u00a0 I really did keep on allowing that to occur.\u00a0 So I\u2019ve been there.\u00a0 It\u2019s interesting how we can continue to walk into this thing and be abused over and over and over again.\u00a0 It\u2019s almost like sheep to the slaughter.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>You tell the story in your book about a woman you identify as Cynthia who came to you who was at this end point in her relationship with her husband.\u00a0 And you had to coach her through how to stop it.\u00a0 Right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong>\u00a0 I had to coach her through how to stop it and she represents so many other women that I talk with.\u00a0 She wanted to come to counseling for me to somehow give her some magic bullet that would help her to change her husband.\u00a0 I had to help her to understand that I didn\u2019t have that magic bullet; all I could do was help her to stop herself from putting up with this kind of relationship.\u00a0 She was afraid to do that.\u00a0 But she couldn\u2019t begin to change it until she was willing to look at herself first.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>What was going on in her relationship with her husband?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Well, her husband was continually deceitful; he had committed a number of affairs.\u00a0 He had no real remorse for them.\u00a0 He was indifferent to their relationship, she had to do all the work, all the care of the children, manage all the finances, and he kind of just lived as a single person but with the perks of married life.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>So she comes and says, \u201cHow do I fix this?\u00a0 How do I fix him?\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>\u201cGod wants us to have a good relationship, and I know that God hates divorce, and I really want this marriage to work, and how can I get him to change, and how can I get him to tell the truth?\u00a0 How can I get him to love me?\u201d\u00a0 All the kind of things that every woman longs for.\u00a0 But you can\u2019t make someone love you.\u00a0 You can\u2019t make someone be honest.\u00a0 You can\u2019t make someone change.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>So what did you tell her to do?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>So I told her \u201cCynthia, change begins with you, so the question you need to begin to ask yourself is \u2018Why are you willing to live with a man who treats you this way?\u2019\u201d\u00a0 And she said, \u201cI don\u2019t know.\u00a0 Because I think God wants me to.\u00a0 I\u2019m supposed to stay here.\u201d\u00a0 It was very difficult for her to begin to look at what her part of it was.\u00a0 Loving someone isn\u2019t just allowing them to continue to sin against you with no protest.\u00a0 Loving them well\u2014biblically means that you begin to speak the truth in love into their life.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt might mean hard words\u2014it doesn\u2019t need to be harsh words.\u00a0 I coach people through the book on how to speak up the first step of learning to end this destructive dance, is that you need to begin to speak up, you need to begin to say, \u201cthis isn\u2019t acceptable. This hurts me.\u00a0 This is destructive to our relationship.\u00a0 This is destructive to you and we need to get help to turn this relationship around.\u00a0 Are you willing?\u2019\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Yes, and it\u2019s interesting as we look at the bible, we know we\u2019re commanded to love our enemies.\u00a0 I think sometimes, and this is what happened in my twenty-year-long relationship, I was doing my best to model to this other person what Christian love was all about.\u00a0 But as it became clear that I was being manipulated, taken advantage of, and really abused, I realized that there was a time that I had draw a line in the sand and say, \u201cNo more.\u00a0 You\u2019re not going to do that to me anymore.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>You\u2019re saying to the other person, \u201cI\u2019m not going to let you do this because it\u2019s not right for you, as well as being hurtful to me.\u00a0 It\u2019s not loving to you to let you continue in that pattern.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Right and the key thing was, I had a choice to be able to draw that line in the sand, and then I had to, as you said earlier, Bob, \u201cbuck up.\u201d\u00a0 I had to stand up and be courageous to stick to it, and not keep walking into an abusive situation to be take advantage of.\u00a0 In my situation, the way I handled it, was I took a friend with me.\u00a0 I took a partner who went with me into the relationship and in the process helped me stay on the right side of the line in the sand.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>I think it would be really helpful right now to talk about what is a healthy relationship.\u00a0 The difference between a healthy relationship or a destructive relationship is one in which there\u2019s mutual caring, mutual honesty, and mutual respect.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf we just talk about respect, one of the things that I\u2019ve found in a relationship that\u2019s been destructive in my life is that this person, whenever I say no, there\u2019s this manipulative guilt that comes in.\u00a0 There\u2019s these boundary pushings.\u00a0 I\u2019m not allowed to say no.\u00a0 I\u2019m not allowed to have boundaries or I\u2019m a bad person.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo it doesn\u2019t lend to a healthy relationship.\u00a0 The operative word here in mutual caring, mutual honest and mutual respect is \u201cmutual.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, we can have ministry to certain people, who may have needs and God calls us to minister to our enemies.\u00a0 But, don\u2019t confuse that with healthy relationship, and that\u2019s what you begin to say.\u00a0 \u201cI can\u2019t have a healthy relationship with this person.\u00a0 I may be able to minister to them here and there, but I can\u2019t have this relationship.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>I think what you just summarized there is very important because, that was the conclusion I came to.\u00a0 Number one, I was kidding myself to think I could have healthy relationship with someone where there couldn\u2019t be any mutual love and respect.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>It wasn\u2019t happening.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>They wanted you to care for them but they weren\u2019t caring for you.\u00a0 Right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Exactly.\u00a0 But secondly I had to come to the conclusion that I couldn\u2019t have a relationship at all.\u00a0 Now, it\u2019s one thing, Leslie, if the person I\u2019m relating to is miles away and I\u2019m not in marriage with them.\u00a0 But speak to the person right now, who\u2019s married to the person who, first they realize they can\u2019t have a healthy relationship and secondly they\u2019re not even sure they can achieve a real relationship with them.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>That is the dilemma and you can make a marriage better all by yourself.\u00a0 You cannot make a marriage work or a marriage good all by yourself.\u00a0 It takes mutual effort, mutual caring, mutual honesty, and mutual respect.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, I think sometimes the burden of making a marriage good has been put on someone\u2019s shoulders as their sole responsibility and they\u2019ve taken it, and it\u2019s not possible.\u00a0 So, I think one of the things we need to do is just help people understand what it takes to have a good healthy relationship.\u00a0 If someone is in that situation though, especially in a marriage, what I coach them to do is, if they begin to get healthier, then they can begin to invite their partner into healthy change.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBecause, when you\u2019re in a marriage, you\u2019re sort of like dancing with somebody.\u00a0 When you\u2019re dancing with someone, and it\u2019s fine with them that they\u2019re stepping on your toes, and they\u2019re kicking you in the shins, but it\u2019s not fine with you, you need to begin to speak up and say, \u201cThis hurts me, I don\u2019t like this.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd, oftentimes, if you\u2019ve never done that before, and you\u2019ve been in a destructive relationship, if the other person cares about you, they will begin to hear you.\u00a0 Sometimes they don\u2019t, and you need to up the ante.\u00a0 That\u2019s when you begin to stand up and say, I can\u2019t allow myself to be treated this way anymore.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>You know, it\u2019s really interesting, I\u2019ve now lived enough life that I still have a lot of idealism, but it\u2019s been edited by reality.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Yes, me too.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Relationships are probably the number one editor of reality in my life.\u00a0 It doesn\u2019t mean we should lose our hope.\u00a0 And it doesn\u2019t mean we should revert to fleshly ways of dealing with relationships.\u00a0 In fact as you were talking, I was thinking about a passage in Romans 12 that says, \u201cNever be conceited, repay no one evil for evil.\u00a0 But give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all.\u201d\u00a0 Then it adds something that you alluded to a little earlier.\u00a0 \u201cIf possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all.\u201d\u00a0 It goes on to say, \u201cBeloved, never avenge yourselves; leave room for the wrath of God.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI think sometimes we lose sight of who God is in these relationships.\u00a0 It may be at points that we need to take a step back and pray for the person who is abusing us.\u00a0 And pray that God will not necessarily get even, but get his attention, or get her attention, and begin to take a step back and get healthy in your relationship with that other person.\u00a0 Because, if you don\u2019t, you\u2019re going to keep on walking in there as I described how I did it for 20 years, and you\u2019re going to keep on getting hurt.\u00a0 You\u2019re going to leave that relationship going, \u201cMan how can I do a better job of loving?\u00a0 How can I help this person come to a faith in Christ?\u201d\u00a0 It\u2019s not all dependent on you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Well, and as we\u2019ve said here, it\u2019s in part about getting help for yourself, for your own physical or emotional safety.\u00a0 But it\u2019s also about how can I boldly love another person.\u00a0 Sometimes the boldest way to love is to say, \u201cNo.\u00a0 No more.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Is to bow up, look them in the eye, or write a letter, or draw that line in the sand, and say, \u201cThat kind of treatment of me is not going to happen.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Yes.\u00a0 That\u2019s what loving confrontation, which the Bible talks about, speaking the truth in love to another person, that\u2019s what it ought to look like.\u00a0 It\u2019s what you outline for folks in your book, <em>The Emotionally Destructive Relationship<\/em>: <em>Seeing it, stopping it and surviving it.<\/em><em>\u00a0 <\/em>We\u2019ve got copies of the book in our FamilyLife Today Resource Center.\u00a0 I want to encourage our listeners.\u00a0 If what you\u2019ve heard today sounds familiar, go online to get a copy of the book <em>The Emotionally Destructive Relationship.<\/em>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOur website FamilyLifeToday.com, FamilyLifeToday.com, you can order online from us if you\u2019d like.\u00a0 Or call 1-800-FLTODAY, 1-800-358-6329, that\u2019s 1-800 F as in \u201cfamily\u201d L as in \u201clife\u201d and then the word TODAY.\u00a0 Ask about Leslie\u2019s book and we\u2019ll make arrangements to get a copy sent out to you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to say a word of thanks, if I can to those listeners who by their support of the ministry of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, make it possible for us to tackle subjects like this here on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, and to try to provide hope and help for folks who are in very difficult relational situations.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are listener supported.\u00a0 As a ministry almost two-thirds of the revenue that we receive comes from donations from folks like you.\u00a0 So obviously without those donations, we wouldn\u2019t be on this radio station.\u00a0 There\u2019s a lot that would get shut down, and we appreciate those of you who do stand with us and help support us with your donations. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThis month, if you\u2019re able to help support the ministry of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> with a donation of any amount, we\u2019d like to send you as a thank you gift, two copies of the brand new, recently revised and updated HomeBuilders\u00ae study guides on <em>Building Your Marriage to Last<\/em>.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThese are study guides the two of you can go through as a couple, or you can use it in a small group setting with other couples.\u00a0 When you make your donation online at FamilyLifeToday.com, if you\u2019d like to receive the HomeBuilders\u00ae study guides on <em>Building Your Marriage to Last<\/em>,just type the word \u201cBUILD\u201d in the key code box that you find on the online donation form.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOr call, 1-800-FLTODAY, then make your donation over the phone and just ask for a copy of the study guides we talked about on the radio.\u00a0 We\u2019re happy to send those out to you, and we do appreciate your partnership with here in the ministry of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTomorrow Leslie Vernick is going to be back with us, and I think our listeners are going to be encouraged by some of what you have to share about your relationship with your mom.\u00a0 But we\u2019ve got a lot more to talk about as it relates to emotionally destructive relationships.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today Keith Lynch and our entire broadcast production team.\u00a0 On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I\u2019m Bob Lepine.\u00a0 We will see you back tomorrow for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHelp for today.\u00a0 Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts for you. However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright \u00a9 FamilyLife. 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