{"id":302009,"date":"2010-04-07T11:00:00","date_gmt":"2010-04-07T15:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/diagnosing-an-emotionally-destructive-re\/"},"modified":"2010-04-07T11:00:00","modified_gmt":"2010-04-07T15:00:00","slug":"diagnosing-an-emotionally-destructive-re","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/diagnosing-an-emotionally-destructive-re\/","title":{"rendered":"Diagnosing an Emotionally Destructive Re"},"content":{"rendered":"","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Are you in an emotionally destructive relationship?  Would you know if you were?<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2010-04-07.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:","filesize":"23.23M","filesize_raw":"24362012","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2860,2873],"tags":[5143,5142],"podcast_series":[7719],"cwp_profile":[3229],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-302009","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-hardship-and-suffering","category-mental-and-emotional-issues","tag-emotional-abuse","tag-emotionally-destructive-relationship","podcast_series-the-emotionally-destructive-relationship","cwp_profile-leslie-vernick","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/302009\/diagnosing-an-emotionally-destructive-re","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/302009\/diagnosing-an-emotionally-destructive-re","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"hz2mkFtcjv\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/diagnosing-an-emotionally-destructive-re\/\">Diagnosing an Emotionally Destructive Re<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/diagnosing-an-emotionally-destructive-re\/embed\/#?secret=hz2mkFtcjv\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Diagnosing an Emotionally Destructive Re&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"hz2mkFtcjv\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2010-04-07.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2010-04-07.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>You know that the Bible calls us as Christians to unconditionally love for others.\u00a0 That\u2019s easy when somebody is loving you back.\u00a0 But what do you do when a relationship becomes emotionally destructive?\u00a0 That\u2019s what Leslie Vernick had to ultimately confront in her relationship with her mom.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>I remember writing her a letter talking to her about my childhood and asking her to take some responsibility for that.\u00a0 I thought that if I confronted her in a godly way she would somehow say she was sorry, I wish I had been a better mother.\u00a0 I never got that.\u00a0 In fact I got another hateful letter back.\u00a0 So that really was the sealing for me that I was not going to contact her again.\u00a0 Because any contact I did have was negative and destructive.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Wednesday, April 7<sup>th<\/sup>. Our host is the President of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey and I'm Bob Lepine.\u00a0 We\u2019ll talk today about what our responsibility is as Christians when we\u2019re involved in emotionally destructive relationships.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, thanks for joining us.\u00a0 I have to be honest here, okay.\u00a0 You have had people, I\u2019ve had people who have come up to me and they will say, \u201cI am in an emotionally abusive relationship.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>When I hear that, there\u2019s part of me wondering just how bad is it really?\u00a0 You know?\u00a0 Is this somebody who is just overly sensitive to their environment and what they\u2019re describing as emotional abuse, you just want to say \u201cJust buck up and grow up.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOr, is it really something where they\u2019re experiencing some kind of cruel emotional abuse, manipulation, all of that on a regular basis?\u00a0 It\u2019s hard to know when all somebody says to you is, \u201cI\u2019m in an emotionally abusive relationship.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 It\u2019s even more difficult to know what to say to that person.\u00a0 We want to provide hope and help and provide a way of escape, not from the relationship, but from the abuse.\u00a0 In times like that you really need the help of a wise counselor, someone to come alongside you and give some coaching.\u00a0 I think we\u2019ve got the person here who can provide that kind of wise counsel for you.\u00a0 Leslie Vernick joins us on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\u00a0 Leslie, welcome back.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>I am really glad to be here, especially on this topic.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>I know you are.\u00a0 Leslie is an author of a number of books.\u00a0 She is a licensed clinical social worker, and has counseled families for more than 25 years.\u00a0 She has been married to her husband Howard for more than 32 years, has two grown children and has written a book that I really want to commend to you called, <em>The Emotionally Destructive Relationship<\/em>.\u00a0 It\u2019s subtitled, <em>Seeing it, Stopping it, Surviving it.<\/em><em>\u00a0 <\/em>Leslie I was curious as I read your book, to find that this really came out of a relationship, a close family relationship that you endured for more than 15 years.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Well, I did.\u00a0 When I was a child my mother was not stable and she divorced my father when I was eight years old.\u00a0 I was oldest.\u00a0 She took us to live in a small apartment in Chicago.\u00a0 I got the couch, and my brother and sister got to sleep on the floor.\u00a0 My mother was an alcoholic and she was bipolar.\u00a0 Her bipolar swings would go into the manic, not the depression side.\u00a0 So she would be cruel, angry, unreasonable, irrational, and sometimes psychotic.\u00a0 Of course we were children and we didn\u2019t understand that.\u00a0 We didn\u2019t really know what was going on.\u00a0 We just knew it was scary to live at home. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI tended to have the biggest buck and the biggest mouth.\u00a0 I\u2019d buck her some, I\u2019d come back at her, which got me in more trouble with her than my other siblings.\u00a0 I think I reminded her most of my father, and she was very angry with him.\u00a0 So, I got the brunt of her abuse.\u00a0 But it was very difficult.\u00a0 Finally when I was fourteen-years-old, my father won custody.\u00a0 I didn\u2019t realize, but for years he had been petitioning the courts for years to get custody of us due to my mom\u2019s behavior.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>I want you to continue your story but just to give our listeners a little bit of insight into what a young person feels and experiences in a family setting like that.\u00a0 What one word would you use to best describe what you felt in that relationship with your mom?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>I think two words would best describe it.\u00a0 One is \u201cconfusion,\u201d because, there were days when she was really great.\u00a0 So, was I with a mom who loved me, or was I with a mom who hated me?\u00a0 Both\u2014both and, it wasn\u2019t either or.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>You didn\u2019t understand bipolar or any of that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>No.\u00a0 I didn\u2019t even know the diagnosis.\u00a0 No.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Did you know she was drinking?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>I didn\u2019t.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>So, her erratic behavior was something you didn\u2019t have any framework or context for.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>None.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>So, one word is \u201cconfusing,\u201d what\u2019s the other one.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>\u201cScared.\u201d\u00a0 Feeling constantly scared.\u00a0 You don\u2019t know what you\u2019re coming into.\u00a0 I remember walking in the door one day, we had a puppy.\u00a0 Her name was Chocolate, and she had chewed up the couch cushions.\u00a0 We had seen that probably weeks before but we just turned them over on the other side because we didn\u2019t want our mom to know.\u00a0 Because she would have been mad.\u00a0 When we walked in the door the cushions were turned up on the other side, so we knew she knew.\u00a0 So we all, just closed the door and went out.\u00a0 Because you didn\u2019t know what was going to happen.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen you went in and she was in one of those moods, you were really scared.\u00a0 So you felt scared a lot.\u00a0 There were a lot of times when she didn\u2019t come home all night.\u00a0 I was the oldest and I felt really scared.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Wow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>What might have happened?\u00a0 What were some of the things you saw your mom do or experience that you look back on and say, \u201cThat was really emotionally destructive and abusive.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>I\u2019ll give you two examples.\u00a0 They were the same thing that I did.\u00a0 I was polishing my shoes and I spilled shoe polish on the linoleum floor, twice.\u00a0 One of the times, I did it; I was told I was worthless and stupid.\u00a0 I was beaten.\u00a0 Another time I did it, it was like, \u201cI can\u2019t believe you did this again, clean it up,\u201d maybe more of a normal parent reaction.\u00a0 So it was that kind of thing. If you wash the dishes the same way one night, it was fine.\u00a0 If you wash the dishes the same way the next night, I remember one time her slapping my face and my face went through the window of the back door.\u00a0 That\u2019s how hard she slapped it.\u00a0 You just never knew what was going to really happen.\u00a0 So it was very frightening.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>It might have been easier for you if the behavior had been more consistent.\u00a0 Do you think?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>I don\u2019t know if it would have been easier, maybe I wouldn\u2019t have felt as confused.\u00a0 But I think\u2014at least my experience as a person, and also my experience working with lots of people who have been abused as a child, they\u2019re still confused because they really do see some good in their parent, and it\u2019s not all bad all the time.\u00a0 And true in an emotionally destructive relationship, whether it\u2019s a parent or a husband or wife.\u00a0 Or, you\u2019re with somebody, in church ministry that\u2019s destructive.\u00a0 They\u2019re not all bad.\u00a0 There are some good things to that.\u00a0 So it does get confusing.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Let\u2019s get back to the story then.\u00a0 Your father was able to get custody?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Yes, so when I was fourteen-years-old my father called us and said, \u201cI\u2019m coming to pick you.\u00a0 I\u2019ve won custody.\u201d\u00a0 Now, we weren\u2019t\u2014at least for me, my brother and sister were happy to go\u2014but for me, by this time I was fourteen years old.\u00a0 I did whatever I wanted because my mother was often not home.\u00a0 So, although I endured her abuse, I had a lot of freedom as a fourteen-year-old, and I liked that.\u00a0 My father was now a Christian.\u00a0 He was going to church.\u00a0 He lived in the suburbs.\u00a0 I didn\u2019t have transportation.\u00a0 I had lived in the city of Chicago I could go wherever I wanted whenever I wanted.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, I did not want to move in with him.\u00a0 I didn\u2019t take to this change very gracefully.\u00a0 But, my father\u2019s consistent love and my new stepmother\u2019s love for me really began to soften my heart.\u00a0 But I wasn\u2019t \u201cOh yes, now I\u2019m going to a stable home.\u201d\u00a0 I was like, \u201cThis is boring.\u00a0 I don\u2019t want to go there.\u00a0 I like where I\u2019m at.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>When could you look back on your relationship with your mother and say, that was what it was: destructive, abusive?\u00a0 When did you begin to realize some perspective to say, \u201cI see what that was now.\u201d?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Well, I think I always knew that she was scary and out of control.\u00a0 I don\u2019t know that I would have used the word \u201cabusive.\u201d\u00a0 I think I just would have used the word \u201cscary\u201d or \u201cbad mother,\u201d those kind of things.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI remember one time, she threw me down the stairs and broke my front teeth, and didn\u2019t really get them fixed until I went to live with my dad.\u00a0 I had temporary caps that looked horrible\u2014those silver caps that you\u2019d wear, it was very humiliating as a girl growing up with ugly teeth.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut I remember when I was in college trying to talk to her about that.\u00a0 She made it out to be my fault.\u00a0 That she didn\u2019t really do anything.\u00a0 That I tripped, and she was just disciplining me as any normal parent.\u00a0 That was worse than anything.\u00a0 I think if she had admitted it, and she had been able to own it and take responsibility for it and say, \u201cYou know I was really sorry.\u00a0 I\u2019m drinking. I wasn\u2019t being a good mom at the time.\u201d\u00a0 I think the damage wouldn\u2019t have been so severe.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut, I think when you confront someone on what they do\u2014there were several times in our life she would give me money at college.\u00a0 I hadn\u2019t seen her much but she would send me money, and then she would say I stole it from her.\u00a0 So, you never knew.\u00a0 I was afraid to take anything from her because I didn\u2018t know what it would cost me in the end.\u00a0 So, we began to have a lot of distance in our relationship, and she eventually moved away and we didn\u2019t have any contact at all.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Ultimately your relationship went dark.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Our relationship went dark.\u00a0 She moved to Florida.\u00a0 Over that time from age 14 to about 22, we had sporadic contact.\u00a0 She would visit us sporadically with my brother and sister.\u00a0 But, she really didn\u2019t get involved.\u00a0 She didn\u2019t attend any of our weddings.\u00a0 She never saw any of her grandchildren being born.\u00a0 We adopted a little girl from Korea, she never saw that.\u00a0 She knew about it for a long time.\u00a0 She moved away, and just chose not to stay in touch with any of us.\u00a0 Not just me, but my brother or sister.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAs a Christian, and as a Christian counselor, I really struggle with that.\u00a0 Because how do I navigate that in a biblical way?\u00a0 How do I honor my parent, how do I love my mother?\u00a0 How do I forgive her?\u00a0 And how do I send her a Mother\u2019s Day Card?\u00a0 All those things were very hard when we had no relationship.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe tried at times, I\u2019d go down to Florida with my brother and sister and she was always mean and scary.\u00a0 I remember we took an alarm.\u00a0 One of those hotel alarms that we put on our bedroom door.\u00a0 Because one time she stabbed her husband in the middle of the night and we didn\u2019t know what was going to happen to us.\u00a0 So it was just a frightening thing.\u00a0 She would say very cruel things like \u201cI wish you were never born.\u201d\u00a0 Or \u201cI wish you were dead.\u201d\u00a0 Those things aren\u2019t fun to hear.\u00a0 Reckless words do hurt us.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Leslie, in your relationship with your mom, she was both physically abusive and emotionally abusive.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Anyone who is physically abusive is also emotionally abusive.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>OK.\u00a0 But aren\u2019t there case where there are some people who are strictly emotionally abusive.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Absolutely.\u00a0 There are times when there is no physical touch going on that wounds someone.\u00a0 But words are used as weapons.\u00a0 And they can be used to control, they can be used to punish, they can be used to manipulate, intimidate, and threaten someone.\u00a0 They can be injurious, every bit as much as the physical injury can be.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Ultimately it was the absence of words that your mom used with you.\u00a0 You write in your book that for 15 years you didn\u2019t see her or hear from her.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>No, didn\u2019t hear from her or see her for 15 years.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Fifteen.\u00a0 Meanwhile you\u2019re raising a family.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Meanwhile I\u2019m raising a family.\u00a0 I\u2019m enjoying my family I\u2019m having a good relationship with my dad and my stepmother so there\u2019s been a lot of healing that\u2019s taking place.\u00a0 I\u2019m also working on figuring out what my responsibility is as a Christian woman to this mother of mine that is somewhere else.\u00a0 I remember writing her a letter talking to her about my childhood and asking her to take some responsibility for that.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI thought that if I confronted her in a godly way, she would\u2014again\u2014somehow say she was sorry I wish I had been a better mother.\u00a0 I never got that, in fact I got another hateful letter back.\u00a0 So that really was the ceiling for me that I was not going to contact her again.\u00a0 Because any contact I did have was negative and destructive.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Leslie you said just a moment ago that people\u2019s lack of understanding of what a destructive relationship looks like and feels like and what the experience is like really keeps many people from understanding what they\u2019re going through.\u00a0 Give us a very simple working definition for what you would characterize as a destructive relationship.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>It\u2019s not characterized by one single incident, but rather it\u2019s a repetitive pattern of behaviors or attitudes that result in either tearing someone down or inhibiting someone\u2019s growth.\u00a0 So you\u2019re tearing them down with your attitudes or your words.\u00a0 Or you\u2019re hindering their growth.\u00a0 That can be done in a variety of different ways.\u00a0 But it\u2019s also accompanied by a lack of responsibility.\u00a0 You\u2019re not taking responsibility for it, a lack of awareness, a lack of remorse and a lack of change. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, it\u2019s not just the action or the attitude, but it\u2019s also the response when someone says, \u201cOuch!\u00a0 Don\u2019t!\u00a0 I don\u2019t like that!\u201d\u00a0 The other person says, \u201cWhat are you talking about?\u00a0 You\u2019re too sensitive.\u00a0 It\u2019s your problem.\u00a0 I didn\u2019t do that.\u201d\u00a0 So they don\u2019t have any personal responsibility or accountability for what they did, so therefore there is no working it through.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>I would imagine there might be mom or a dad who may be listening right now and they may have missed the phrase, the little statement you made, it\u2019s not a one-time event or even a sporadic event.\u00a0 It\u2019s a pattern.\u00a0 It\u2019s a habit.\u00a0 It\u2019s an ongoing problem.\u00a0 The reason I say that is, what parent hasn\u2019t lost control at some point and gotten angry at their child, and maybe said some things or looked at the child or done something?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAt that point, that doesn\u2019t necessarily indicate they\u2019re in a destructive relationship with their child and doing them harm.\u00a0 Now, it doesn\u2019t do them any good obviously.\u00a0 But we\u2019re talking about something that is really habitual and it\u2019s the pattern of relating.\u00a0 Right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Yes, it\u2019s the pattern of relating but it also\u2014all you have to do is shoot a gun one time at someone and they\u2019re dead.\u00a0 So, sometimes there are some incidents of abuse that\u2019s just as lethal one time.\u00a0 So when we\u2019re talking about physical abuse, I don\u2019t think we can say.\u00a0 \u201cWell, it\u2019s only sporadic so we\u2019re not going to take it as a serious thing.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI had a client once who, the first time her husband abused her he pushed her, and then he didn\u2019t do anything else.\u00a0 He was mean and surly in lots of other ways.\u00a0 But the second time he abused her, she\u2019d told him not to salt his meat because she\u2019d already put salt in it, and he didn\u2019t like that.\u00a0 So he got up and threw his food at her face and choked her by the sink.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat was a few years later.\u00a0 The third time he abused her he held a loaded gun to her head in front of her children.\u00a0 So that was three times in fifteen years.\u00a0 But each of those times it was getting progressively serious and more progressively dangerous.\u00a0 The first time was too many times.\u00a0 The second time was too many times.\u00a0 So I don\u2019t want to minimize the consequences of a physically abusive relationship. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnother destructive type of relationship is one in which there is a lot of deceit going on.\u00a0 Oftentimes, when there\u2019s a lot of deceit going on in a relationship and someone\u2019s not willing to own it, it doesn\u2019t matter if it only happens three times in five years.\u00a0 It breaks trust down and if they can\u2019t own it and work on it and do it, it\u2019s hard to rebuild that relationship.\u00a0 So, it may not be very frequent, but it is this pattern that someone will not own, will not take responsibility for and will not change that makes it destructive.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>You mention lying and deceit as one of the characteristics of an unhealthy relationship.\u00a0 In fact, you list I think five of them in the book.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Five of them, yes.\u00a0 And abuse is one of them.\u00a0 So any time there\u2019s any kind of physical, emotional abuse, verbal abuse, spiritual abuse, and sexual abuse, any kind of that in a relationship, it\u2019s destructive, hands down.\u00a0 But there are some other kinds of relationships that aren\u2019t so obvious as that.\u00a0 The abusive ones are obvious.\u00a0 But one is when someone\u2019s controlling over another person, and they may not use verbal abuse to be controlling.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOftentimes spiritual abuse is under this category.\u00a0 They\u2019re not cursing at someone they\u2019re not calling them names.\u00a0 They\u2019re just, sort of, having his superior attitude, that somehow \u201cI have a hotline to God and I know better than you what\u2019s good for you, and you\u2019d better do it my way or you\u2019re going to be a sinner and you\u2019ll be disobeying God and some bad things are going to happen to you.\u201d\u00a0 Parents can do that to their adult children, husbands can do that to their wives under the guise of headship, pastors can do that to their parishioners under the guise of \u201cI\u2019m the pastor and I get my way.\u201d\u00a0 That can inhibit someone\u2019s growth or tear someone down.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tA relationship that is repetitively deceitful, I\u2019m not just talking about blatant lying.\u00a0 I\u2019m also talking about misleading pretending, making things look one way when it\u2019s really another, making yourself appear that you\u2019re one person and you\u2019re really not.\u00a0 So someone believes that you\u2019re saying this, but you\u2019re really not.\u00a0 You\u2019re not giving the whole story and that undermines trust.\u00a0 When that happens repeatedly in a relationship it becomes destructive.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnother kind is when someone is overly dependent this becomes destructive because I\u2019m depending on you to fill up my entire tank, to define me, to make me a whole person, and to make me happy.\u00a0 When I lean on you so hard, that it makes you want to push me back and say, \u201cGrow up, get off of me.\u201d\u00a0 I\u2019m asking you to be my god, and that can be destructive to me and to the relationship.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe last kind of destructive relationship is when there is indifference.\u00a0 We don\u2019t talk about this much in the Christian community, but when you marry someone there\u2019s an actual commitment to love.\u00a0 So when there\u2019s indifference, \u201cI don\u2019t care, do what you want.\u00a0 I don\u2019t care how you feel.\u201d\u00a0 You tell me something that bothers you and \u201cToo bad, that\u2019s your problem.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Abandonment?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Abandonment emotionally, abandonment physically, there\u2019s this indifference to the other person\u2019s feelings, thoughts or needs.\u00a0 That can be very destructive because I thought you promised to love me, and when you act as if I don\u2019t even exist, and that I\u2019m not important to you, it\u2019s very hurtful and it can be destructive to some people.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 In your book you actually have a series of questions.\u00a0 With your permission what I\u2019d like to do is take these 31 questions and put them on the internet and allow people to take this diagnostic test.\u00a0 Because you give people a chance to circle whether this never happens, seldom happens, sometimes, frequently or almost always.\u00a0 You\u2019ve got different categories for how people can answer them.\u00a0 But they really touch on all five of these destructive relationships, and it helps people.\u00a0 I really like the questions because it\u2019ll help them identify if they are perpetrating a destructive relationship upon a child or a spouse.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>So, for example there\u2019s a question like: \u201cDoes the person control family money, giving you little or no say?\u201d\u00a0 And you say, \u201cWell, no she never does that\u201d or \u201cHe never does that...\u201d sometimes, seldom, frequently, and almost always.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>I was speaking, last week and I had just had a woman who came up to me and she had been a former client of mine.\u00a0 Her husband is very, very controlling\u2014never physically abusive, but very controlling especially around money.\u00a0 I said to her, \u201cHow are you doing?\u201d\u00a0 And she said, \u201cWell, he gave me an allowance of $50 a week, that\u2019s all I\u2019m allowed to have.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat happens in that kind of relationship it becomes a parent-child relationship and it\u2019s not healthy for a woman to be treated as a child in a marriage.\u00a0 He\u2019s controlling all the money; he\u2019s deciding who gets what.\u00a0 It\u2019s not like they\u2019re deciding that together.\u00a0 If they were deciding that together \u201cthis is how much money we have, and this is all we can spend this week\u2026\u201d\u00a0 Then that\u2019s a mutual adult-adult decision.\u00a0 But when someone has all the power in the relationship and controls another person in terms of their time or their space or their money, then it becomes controlling and destructive.\u00a0 So these questions will illustrate different areas of destructiveness.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>We\u2019ve put this on our website at FamilyLifeToday.com, so if our listeners are interested in taking this inventory and really checking and saying, is the relationship I\u2019m in, would it qualify as an emotionally destructive relationship?\u00a0 There\u2019s a good way to tell by working your way through these questions.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 I guess I\u2019d just like to apply a scripture here, because I think one of the most important ingredients of any healthy relationship is really found in Ephesians 5:21, it says \u201cSubmitting to one another out of reverence to Christ.\u201d\u00a0 What it\u2019s talking about there is really looking out for the other person\u2019s interests and submitting yourself to them and their needs and if need be, take a step back, look in the mirror of scripture and do a little self-analysis of how you re relating to another person.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tPerhaps you have a blind spot and you need the Spirit of God to reveal to you that you have some unhealthy patterns in how you\u2019re relating to a child, your spouse, perhaps a family member, and then begin to ask God to do some business.\u00a0 Bob, I think Leslie\u2019s book here is really going to be of great value to people who are serious about changing some habits and patterns in their relationships.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>I think it\u2019s going to help those who may recognize things are not right in this relationship and I think I know what the source of that is, only to find out that oftentimes we are co-contributors in this emotionally destructive relationship.\u00a0 Whether it\u2019s a marriage relationship, or a parent-child relationship.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe\u2019ve got copies of the book in our FamilyLife Today Resource Center, and I\u2019d just encourage you listeners, if this sounds like a relationship you\u2019re in, go online at FamilyLifeToday.com and get a copy of Leslie\u2019s book, <em>The Emotionally Destructive Relationship<\/em>.\u00a0 Again, our website FamilyLifeToday.com, or call 1-800-FLTODAY.\u00a0 1-800-358-6329, and you can request a copy of the book, we\u2019ll send it out to you.\u00a0 Again, the website, FamilyLifeToday.com or call 1-800 F as in \u201cfamily\u201d L as in \u201clife\u201d and then the word TODAY.\u00a0 Just contact us and we\u2019ll be happy to get a copy of Leslie\u2019s book to you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou know, as we talk about this subject, it\u2019s probably hardest to know what to do when the relationship we\u2019re describing is a husband and wife relationship.\u00a0 Yet, if husbands and wives aren\u2019t taking proactive measures to try to strengthen and build a marriage, oftentimes this kind of isolation and toxicity is what shows up when the marriage has not been attended to the way it ought to be attended to.\u00a0 For years we\u2019ve been encouraging couples to be proactive in strengthening their marriage.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOne of the tools we\u2019ve recommended is the HomeBuilders\u00ae Couples Series.\u00a0 We\u2019ve just recently revised and updated a number of the studies in the series.\u00a0 This month if our listeners are able to help support the ministry of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> with a donation of any amount, we\u2019d like to say thank you by sending you two copies of the new HomeBuilders\u00ae study guide called <em>Building Your Marriage to Last<\/em>.\u00a0 As I said, it\u2019s been recently revised and updated; this is something that would be great for the two of you to go through as a couple.\u00a0 Of course our hope would be that you would invite some other couples to join with you and that together you would go through this material.\u00a0 I think you\u2019d find it helpful for every couple involved in the study.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAgain when you make a donation of any amount to support <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, ask for the HomeBuilders\u00ae study guides, <em>Building Your Marriage to Last<\/em>.\u00a0 All you have to do is type the word \u201cBUILD\u201d into the key code box on the online donation form if you\u2019d like the studies.\u00a0 Or you can call 1-800-FLTODAY and make your donation by phone, just ask for the study guides that were talked about on the radio.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, again go online, at FamilyLifeToday.com, make your donation there and type the word \u201cBUILD\u201d into the key code box.\u00a0 Or call, 1-800-FLTODAY, make your donation by phone and ask for the study guides.\u00a0 And we hope you\u2019ll find them helpful in your own marriage and as you try to reach out to others to help strengthen their marriage as well.\u00a0 Thanks for your support of this ministry; we appreciate your partnership with us.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTomorrow Leslie Vernick is going to be back with us, we\u2019re going to continue talking about some of the struggles she experienced in her relationship with her mom, as well as what we can do when we\u2019re in an emotionally destructive relationship.\u00a0 I hope you can be back with us for that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today Keith Lynch and our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHelp for today.\u00a0 Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts for you. However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright \u00a9 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>www.FamilyLife.com<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>"],"_seopress_titles_title":[""],"_seopress_titles_desc":[""],"_seopress_robots_index":[""],"duration":["00:"],"show_notes":[""],"_thumbnail_id":["294104"],"filesize":["23.23M"],"filesize_raw":["24362012"],"_uag_css_file_name":["uag-css-302009.css"],"_uag_js_file_name":["uag-js-302009.js"],"_uag_page_assets":["a:9:{s:3:\"css\";s:82560:\".wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-top svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-top .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-bottom svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-bottom .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f 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you in an emotionally destructive relationship? Would you know if you were?","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2010-04-07.pdf","transcript_content":"<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>You know that the Bible calls us as Christians to unconditionally love for others.\u00a0 That\u2019s easy when somebody is loving you back.\u00a0 But what do you do when a relationship becomes emotionally destructive?\u00a0 That\u2019s what Leslie Vernick had to ultimately confront in her relationship with her mom.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>I remember writing her a letter talking to her about my childhood and asking her to take some responsibility for that.\u00a0 I thought that if I confronted her in a godly way she would somehow say she was sorry, I wish I had been a better mother.\u00a0 I never got that.\u00a0 In fact I got another hateful letter back.\u00a0 So that really was the sealing for me that I was not going to contact her again.\u00a0 Because any contact I did have was negative and destructive.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Wednesday, April 7<sup>th<\/sup>. Our host is the President of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey and I'm Bob Lepine.\u00a0 We\u2019ll talk today about what our responsibility is as Christians when we\u2019re involved in emotionally destructive relationships.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, thanks for joining us.\u00a0 I have to be honest here, okay.\u00a0 You have had people, I\u2019ve had people who have come up to me and they will say, \u201cI am in an emotionally abusive relationship.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>When I hear that, there\u2019s part of me wondering just how bad is it really?\u00a0 You know?\u00a0 Is this somebody who is just overly sensitive to their environment and what they\u2019re describing as emotional abuse, you just want to say \u201cJust buck up and grow up.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOr, is it really something where they\u2019re experiencing some kind of cruel emotional abuse, manipulation, all of that on a regular basis?\u00a0 It\u2019s hard to know when all somebody says to you is, \u201cI\u2019m in an emotionally abusive relationship.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 It\u2019s even more difficult to know what to say to that person.\u00a0 We want to provide hope and help and provide a way of escape, not from the relationship, but from the abuse.\u00a0 In times like that you really need the help of a wise counselor, someone to come alongside you and give some coaching.\u00a0 I think we\u2019ve got the person here who can provide that kind of wise counsel for you.\u00a0 Leslie Vernick joins us on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\u00a0 Leslie, welcome back.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>I am really glad to be here, especially on this topic.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>I know you are.\u00a0 Leslie is an author of a number of books.\u00a0 She is a licensed clinical social worker, and has counseled families for more than 25 years.\u00a0 She has been married to her husband Howard for more than 32 years, has two grown children and has written a book that I really want to commend to you called, <em>The Emotionally Destructive Relationship<\/em>.\u00a0 It\u2019s subtitled, <em>Seeing it, Stopping it, Surviving it.<\/em><em>\u00a0 <\/em>Leslie I was curious as I read your book, to find that this really came out of a relationship, a close family relationship that you endured for more than 15 years.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Well, I did.\u00a0 When I was a child my mother was not stable and she divorced my father when I was eight years old.\u00a0 I was oldest.\u00a0 She took us to live in a small apartment in Chicago.\u00a0 I got the couch, and my brother and sister got to sleep on the floor.\u00a0 My mother was an alcoholic and she was bipolar.\u00a0 Her bipolar swings would go into the manic, not the depression side.\u00a0 So she would be cruel, angry, unreasonable, irrational, and sometimes psychotic.\u00a0 Of course we were children and we didn\u2019t understand that.\u00a0 We didn\u2019t really know what was going on.\u00a0 We just knew it was scary to live at home. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI tended to have the biggest buck and the biggest mouth.\u00a0 I\u2019d buck her some, I\u2019d come back at her, which got me in more trouble with her than my other siblings.\u00a0 I think I reminded her most of my father, and she was very angry with him.\u00a0 So, I got the brunt of her abuse.\u00a0 But it was very difficult.\u00a0 Finally when I was fourteen-years-old, my father won custody.\u00a0 I didn\u2019t realize, but for years he had been petitioning the courts for years to get custody of us due to my mom\u2019s behavior.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>I want you to continue your story but just to give our listeners a little bit of insight into what a young person feels and experiences in a family setting like that.\u00a0 What one word would you use to best describe what you felt in that relationship with your mom?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>I think two words would best describe it.\u00a0 One is \u201cconfusion,\u201d because, there were days when she was really great.\u00a0 So, was I with a mom who loved me, or was I with a mom who hated me?\u00a0 Both\u2014both and, it wasn\u2019t either or.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>You didn\u2019t understand bipolar or any of that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>No.\u00a0 I didn\u2019t even know the diagnosis.\u00a0 No.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Did you know she was drinking?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>I didn\u2019t.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>So, her erratic behavior was something you didn\u2019t have any framework or context for.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>None.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>So, one word is \u201cconfusing,\u201d what\u2019s the other one.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>\u201cScared.\u201d\u00a0 Feeling constantly scared.\u00a0 You don\u2019t know what you\u2019re coming into.\u00a0 I remember walking in the door one day, we had a puppy.\u00a0 Her name was Chocolate, and she had chewed up the couch cushions.\u00a0 We had seen that probably weeks before but we just turned them over on the other side because we didn\u2019t want our mom to know.\u00a0 Because she would have been mad.\u00a0 When we walked in the door the cushions were turned up on the other side, so we knew she knew.\u00a0 So we all, just closed the door and went out.\u00a0 Because you didn\u2019t know what was going to happen.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen you went in and she was in one of those moods, you were really scared.\u00a0 So you felt scared a lot.\u00a0 There were a lot of times when she didn\u2019t come home all night.\u00a0 I was the oldest and I felt really scared.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Wow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>What might have happened?\u00a0 What were some of the things you saw your mom do or experience that you look back on and say, \u201cThat was really emotionally destructive and abusive.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>I\u2019ll give you two examples.\u00a0 They were the same thing that I did.\u00a0 I was polishing my shoes and I spilled shoe polish on the linoleum floor, twice.\u00a0 One of the times, I did it; I was told I was worthless and stupid.\u00a0 I was beaten.\u00a0 Another time I did it, it was like, \u201cI can\u2019t believe you did this again, clean it up,\u201d maybe more of a normal parent reaction.\u00a0 So it was that kind of thing. If you wash the dishes the same way one night, it was fine.\u00a0 If you wash the dishes the same way the next night, I remember one time her slapping my face and my face went through the window of the back door.\u00a0 That\u2019s how hard she slapped it.\u00a0 You just never knew what was going to really happen.\u00a0 So it was very frightening.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>It might have been easier for you if the behavior had been more consistent.\u00a0 Do you think?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>I don\u2019t know if it would have been easier, maybe I wouldn\u2019t have felt as confused.\u00a0 But I think\u2014at least my experience as a person, and also my experience working with lots of people who have been abused as a child, they\u2019re still confused because they really do see some good in their parent, and it\u2019s not all bad all the time.\u00a0 And true in an emotionally destructive relationship, whether it\u2019s a parent or a husband or wife.\u00a0 Or, you\u2019re with somebody, in church ministry that\u2019s destructive.\u00a0 They\u2019re not all bad.\u00a0 There are some good things to that.\u00a0 So it does get confusing.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Let\u2019s get back to the story then.\u00a0 Your father was able to get custody?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Yes, so when I was fourteen-years-old my father called us and said, \u201cI\u2019m coming to pick you.\u00a0 I\u2019ve won custody.\u201d\u00a0 Now, we weren\u2019t\u2014at least for me, my brother and sister were happy to go\u2014but for me, by this time I was fourteen years old.\u00a0 I did whatever I wanted because my mother was often not home.\u00a0 So, although I endured her abuse, I had a lot of freedom as a fourteen-year-old, and I liked that.\u00a0 My father was now a Christian.\u00a0 He was going to church.\u00a0 He lived in the suburbs.\u00a0 I didn\u2019t have transportation.\u00a0 I had lived in the city of Chicago I could go wherever I wanted whenever I wanted.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, I did not want to move in with him.\u00a0 I didn\u2019t take to this change very gracefully.\u00a0 But, my father\u2019s consistent love and my new stepmother\u2019s love for me really began to soften my heart.\u00a0 But I wasn\u2019t \u201cOh yes, now I\u2019m going to a stable home.\u201d\u00a0 I was like, \u201cThis is boring.\u00a0 I don\u2019t want to go there.\u00a0 I like where I\u2019m at.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>When could you look back on your relationship with your mother and say, that was what it was: destructive, abusive?\u00a0 When did you begin to realize some perspective to say, \u201cI see what that was now.\u201d?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Well, I think I always knew that she was scary and out of control.\u00a0 I don\u2019t know that I would have used the word \u201cabusive.\u201d\u00a0 I think I just would have used the word \u201cscary\u201d or \u201cbad mother,\u201d those kind of things.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI remember one time, she threw me down the stairs and broke my front teeth, and didn\u2019t really get them fixed until I went to live with my dad.\u00a0 I had temporary caps that looked horrible\u2014those silver caps that you\u2019d wear, it was very humiliating as a girl growing up with ugly teeth.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut I remember when I was in college trying to talk to her about that.\u00a0 She made it out to be my fault.\u00a0 That she didn\u2019t really do anything.\u00a0 That I tripped, and she was just disciplining me as any normal parent.\u00a0 That was worse than anything.\u00a0 I think if she had admitted it, and she had been able to own it and take responsibility for it and say, \u201cYou know I was really sorry.\u00a0 I\u2019m drinking. I wasn\u2019t being a good mom at the time.\u201d\u00a0 I think the damage wouldn\u2019t have been so severe.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut, I think when you confront someone on what they do\u2014there were several times in our life she would give me money at college.\u00a0 I hadn\u2019t seen her much but she would send me money, and then she would say I stole it from her.\u00a0 So, you never knew.\u00a0 I was afraid to take anything from her because I didn\u2018t know what it would cost me in the end.\u00a0 So, we began to have a lot of distance in our relationship, and she eventually moved away and we didn\u2019t have any contact at all.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Ultimately your relationship went dark.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Our relationship went dark.\u00a0 She moved to Florida.\u00a0 Over that time from age 14 to about 22, we had sporadic contact.\u00a0 She would visit us sporadically with my brother and sister.\u00a0 But, she really didn\u2019t get involved.\u00a0 She didn\u2019t attend any of our weddings.\u00a0 She never saw any of her grandchildren being born.\u00a0 We adopted a little girl from Korea, she never saw that.\u00a0 She knew about it for a long time.\u00a0 She moved away, and just chose not to stay in touch with any of us.\u00a0 Not just me, but my brother or sister.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAs a Christian, and as a Christian counselor, I really struggle with that.\u00a0 Because how do I navigate that in a biblical way?\u00a0 How do I honor my parent, how do I love my mother?\u00a0 How do I forgive her?\u00a0 And how do I send her a Mother\u2019s Day Card?\u00a0 All those things were very hard when we had no relationship.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe tried at times, I\u2019d go down to Florida with my brother and sister and she was always mean and scary.\u00a0 I remember we took an alarm.\u00a0 One of those hotel alarms that we put on our bedroom door.\u00a0 Because one time she stabbed her husband in the middle of the night and we didn\u2019t know what was going to happen to us.\u00a0 So it was just a frightening thing.\u00a0 She would say very cruel things like \u201cI wish you were never born.\u201d\u00a0 Or \u201cI wish you were dead.\u201d\u00a0 Those things aren\u2019t fun to hear.\u00a0 Reckless words do hurt us.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Leslie, in your relationship with your mom, she was both physically abusive and emotionally abusive.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Anyone who is physically abusive is also emotionally abusive.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>OK.\u00a0 But aren\u2019t there case where there are some people who are strictly emotionally abusive.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Absolutely.\u00a0 There are times when there is no physical touch going on that wounds someone.\u00a0 But words are used as weapons.\u00a0 And they can be used to control, they can be used to punish, they can be used to manipulate, intimidate, and threaten someone.\u00a0 They can be injurious, every bit as much as the physical injury can be.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Ultimately it was the absence of words that your mom used with you.\u00a0 You write in your book that for 15 years you didn\u2019t see her or hear from her.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>No, didn\u2019t hear from her or see her for 15 years.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Fifteen.\u00a0 Meanwhile you\u2019re raising a family.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Meanwhile I\u2019m raising a family.\u00a0 I\u2019m enjoying my family I\u2019m having a good relationship with my dad and my stepmother so there\u2019s been a lot of healing that\u2019s taking place.\u00a0 I\u2019m also working on figuring out what my responsibility is as a Christian woman to this mother of mine that is somewhere else.\u00a0 I remember writing her a letter talking to her about my childhood and asking her to take some responsibility for that.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI thought that if I confronted her in a godly way, she would\u2014again\u2014somehow say she was sorry I wish I had been a better mother.\u00a0 I never got that, in fact I got another hateful letter back.\u00a0 So that really was the ceiling for me that I was not going to contact her again.\u00a0 Because any contact I did have was negative and destructive.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Leslie you said just a moment ago that people\u2019s lack of understanding of what a destructive relationship looks like and feels like and what the experience is like really keeps many people from understanding what they\u2019re going through.\u00a0 Give us a very simple working definition for what you would characterize as a destructive relationship.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>It\u2019s not characterized by one single incident, but rather it\u2019s a repetitive pattern of behaviors or attitudes that result in either tearing someone down or inhibiting someone\u2019s growth.\u00a0 So you\u2019re tearing them down with your attitudes or your words.\u00a0 Or you\u2019re hindering their growth.\u00a0 That can be done in a variety of different ways.\u00a0 But it\u2019s also accompanied by a lack of responsibility.\u00a0 You\u2019re not taking responsibility for it, a lack of awareness, a lack of remorse and a lack of change. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, it\u2019s not just the action or the attitude, but it\u2019s also the response when someone says, \u201cOuch!\u00a0 Don\u2019t!\u00a0 I don\u2019t like that!\u201d\u00a0 The other person says, \u201cWhat are you talking about?\u00a0 You\u2019re too sensitive.\u00a0 It\u2019s your problem.\u00a0 I didn\u2019t do that.\u201d\u00a0 So they don\u2019t have any personal responsibility or accountability for what they did, so therefore there is no working it through.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>I would imagine there might be mom or a dad who may be listening right now and they may have missed the phrase, the little statement you made, it\u2019s not a one-time event or even a sporadic event.\u00a0 It\u2019s a pattern.\u00a0 It\u2019s a habit.\u00a0 It\u2019s an ongoing problem.\u00a0 The reason I say that is, what parent hasn\u2019t lost control at some point and gotten angry at their child, and maybe said some things or looked at the child or done something?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAt that point, that doesn\u2019t necessarily indicate they\u2019re in a destructive relationship with their child and doing them harm.\u00a0 Now, it doesn\u2019t do them any good obviously.\u00a0 But we\u2019re talking about something that is really habitual and it\u2019s the pattern of relating.\u00a0 Right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Yes, it\u2019s the pattern of relating but it also\u2014all you have to do is shoot a gun one time at someone and they\u2019re dead.\u00a0 So, sometimes there are some incidents of abuse that\u2019s just as lethal one time.\u00a0 So when we\u2019re talking about physical abuse, I don\u2019t think we can say.\u00a0 \u201cWell, it\u2019s only sporadic so we\u2019re not going to take it as a serious thing.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI had a client once who, the first time her husband abused her he pushed her, and then he didn\u2019t do anything else.\u00a0 He was mean and surly in lots of other ways.\u00a0 But the second time he abused her, she\u2019d told him not to salt his meat because she\u2019d already put salt in it, and he didn\u2019t like that.\u00a0 So he got up and threw his food at her face and choked her by the sink.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat was a few years later.\u00a0 The third time he abused her he held a loaded gun to her head in front of her children.\u00a0 So that was three times in fifteen years.\u00a0 But each of those times it was getting progressively serious and more progressively dangerous.\u00a0 The first time was too many times.\u00a0 The second time was too many times.\u00a0 So I don\u2019t want to minimize the consequences of a physically abusive relationship. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnother destructive type of relationship is one in which there is a lot of deceit going on.\u00a0 Oftentimes, when there\u2019s a lot of deceit going on in a relationship and someone\u2019s not willing to own it, it doesn\u2019t matter if it only happens three times in five years.\u00a0 It breaks trust down and if they can\u2019t own it and work on it and do it, it\u2019s hard to rebuild that relationship.\u00a0 So, it may not be very frequent, but it is this pattern that someone will not own, will not take responsibility for and will not change that makes it destructive.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>You mention lying and deceit as one of the characteristics of an unhealthy relationship.\u00a0 In fact, you list I think five of them in the book.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Five of them, yes.\u00a0 And abuse is one of them.\u00a0 So any time there\u2019s any kind of physical, emotional abuse, verbal abuse, spiritual abuse, and sexual abuse, any kind of that in a relationship, it\u2019s destructive, hands down.\u00a0 But there are some other kinds of relationships that aren\u2019t so obvious as that.\u00a0 The abusive ones are obvious.\u00a0 But one is when someone\u2019s controlling over another person, and they may not use verbal abuse to be controlling.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOftentimes spiritual abuse is under this category.\u00a0 They\u2019re not cursing at someone they\u2019re not calling them names.\u00a0 They\u2019re just, sort of, having his superior attitude, that somehow \u201cI have a hotline to God and I know better than you what\u2019s good for you, and you\u2019d better do it my way or you\u2019re going to be a sinner and you\u2019ll be disobeying God and some bad things are going to happen to you.\u201d\u00a0 Parents can do that to their adult children, husbands can do that to their wives under the guise of headship, pastors can do that to their parishioners under the guise of \u201cI\u2019m the pastor and I get my way.\u201d\u00a0 That can inhibit someone\u2019s growth or tear someone down.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tA relationship that is repetitively deceitful, I\u2019m not just talking about blatant lying.\u00a0 I\u2019m also talking about misleading pretending, making things look one way when it\u2019s really another, making yourself appear that you\u2019re one person and you\u2019re really not.\u00a0 So someone believes that you\u2019re saying this, but you\u2019re really not.\u00a0 You\u2019re not giving the whole story and that undermines trust.\u00a0 When that happens repeatedly in a relationship it becomes destructive.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnother kind is when someone is overly dependent this becomes destructive because I\u2019m depending on you to fill up my entire tank, to define me, to make me a whole person, and to make me happy.\u00a0 When I lean on you so hard, that it makes you want to push me back and say, \u201cGrow up, get off of me.\u201d\u00a0 I\u2019m asking you to be my god, and that can be destructive to me and to the relationship.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe last kind of destructive relationship is when there is indifference.\u00a0 We don\u2019t talk about this much in the Christian community, but when you marry someone there\u2019s an actual commitment to love.\u00a0 So when there\u2019s indifference, \u201cI don\u2019t care, do what you want.\u00a0 I don\u2019t care how you feel.\u201d\u00a0 You tell me something that bothers you and \u201cToo bad, that\u2019s your problem.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Abandonment?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Abandonment emotionally, abandonment physically, there\u2019s this indifference to the other person\u2019s feelings, thoughts or needs.\u00a0 That can be very destructive because I thought you promised to love me, and when you act as if I don\u2019t even exist, and that I\u2019m not important to you, it\u2019s very hurtful and it can be destructive to some people.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 In your book you actually have a series of questions.\u00a0 With your permission what I\u2019d like to do is take these 31 questions and put them on the internet and allow people to take this diagnostic test.\u00a0 Because you give people a chance to circle whether this never happens, seldom happens, sometimes, frequently or almost always.\u00a0 You\u2019ve got different categories for how people can answer them.\u00a0 But they really touch on all five of these destructive relationships, and it helps people.\u00a0 I really like the questions because it\u2019ll help them identify if they are perpetrating a destructive relationship upon a child or a spouse.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>So, for example there\u2019s a question like: \u201cDoes the person control family money, giving you little or no say?\u201d\u00a0 And you say, \u201cWell, no she never does that\u201d or \u201cHe never does that...\u201d sometimes, seldom, frequently, and almost always.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Leslie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>I was speaking, last week and I had just had a woman who came up to me and she had been a former client of mine.\u00a0 Her husband is very, very controlling\u2014never physically abusive, but very controlling especially around money.\u00a0 I said to her, \u201cHow are you doing?\u201d\u00a0 And she said, \u201cWell, he gave me an allowance of $50 a week, that\u2019s all I\u2019m allowed to have.\u201d\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat happens in that kind of relationship it becomes a parent-child relationship and it\u2019s not healthy for a woman to be treated as a child in a marriage.\u00a0 He\u2019s controlling all the money; he\u2019s deciding who gets what.\u00a0 It\u2019s not like they\u2019re deciding that together.\u00a0 If they were deciding that together \u201cthis is how much money we have, and this is all we can spend this week\u2026\u201d\u00a0 Then that\u2019s a mutual adult-adult decision.\u00a0 But when someone has all the power in the relationship and controls another person in terms of their time or their space or their money, then it becomes controlling and destructive.\u00a0 So these questions will illustrate different areas of destructiveness.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>We\u2019ve put this on our website at FamilyLifeToday.com, so if our listeners are interested in taking this inventory and really checking and saying, is the relationship I\u2019m in, would it qualify as an emotionally destructive relationship?\u00a0 There\u2019s a good way to tell by working your way through these questions.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 I guess I\u2019d just like to apply a scripture here, because I think one of the most important ingredients of any healthy relationship is really found in Ephesians 5:21, it says \u201cSubmitting to one another out of reverence to Christ.\u201d\u00a0 What it\u2019s talking about there is really looking out for the other person\u2019s interests and submitting yourself to them and their needs and if need be, take a step back, look in the mirror of scripture and do a little self-analysis of how you re relating to another person.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tPerhaps you have a blind spot and you need the Spirit of God to reveal to you that you have some unhealthy patterns in how you\u2019re relating to a child, your spouse, perhaps a family member, and then begin to ask God to do some business.\u00a0 Bob, I think Leslie\u2019s book here is really going to be of great value to people who are serious about changing some habits and patterns in their relationships.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>I think it\u2019s going to help those who may recognize things are not right in this relationship and I think I know what the source of that is, only to find out that oftentimes we are co-contributors in this emotionally destructive relationship.\u00a0 Whether it\u2019s a marriage relationship, or a parent-child relationship.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe\u2019ve got copies of the book in our FamilyLife Today Resource Center, and I\u2019d just encourage you listeners, if this sounds like a relationship you\u2019re in, go online at FamilyLifeToday.com and get a copy of Leslie\u2019s book, <em>The Emotionally Destructive Relationship<\/em>.\u00a0 Again, our website FamilyLifeToday.com, or call 1-800-FLTODAY.\u00a0 1-800-358-6329, and you can request a copy of the book, we\u2019ll send it out to you.\u00a0 Again, the website, FamilyLifeToday.com or call 1-800 F as in \u201cfamily\u201d L as in \u201clife\u201d and then the word TODAY.\u00a0 Just contact us and we\u2019ll be happy to get a copy of Leslie\u2019s book to you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou know, as we talk about this subject, it\u2019s probably hardest to know what to do when the relationship we\u2019re describing is a husband and wife relationship.\u00a0 Yet, if husbands and wives aren\u2019t taking proactive measures to try to strengthen and build a marriage, oftentimes this kind of isolation and toxicity is what shows up when the marriage has not been attended to the way it ought to be attended to.\u00a0 For years we\u2019ve been encouraging couples to be proactive in strengthening their marriage.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOne of the tools we\u2019ve recommended is the HomeBuilders\u00ae Couples Series.\u00a0 We\u2019ve just recently revised and updated a number of the studies in the series.\u00a0 This month if our listeners are able to help support the ministry of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> with a donation of any amount, we\u2019d like to say thank you by sending you two copies of the new HomeBuilders\u00ae study guide called <em>Building Your Marriage to Last<\/em>.\u00a0 As I said, it\u2019s been recently revised and updated; this is something that would be great for the two of you to go through as a couple.\u00a0 Of course our hope would be that you would invite some other couples to join with you and that together you would go through this material.\u00a0 I think you\u2019d find it helpful for every couple involved in the study.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAgain when you make a donation of any amount to support <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, ask for the HomeBuilders\u00ae study guides, <em>Building Your Marriage to Last<\/em>.\u00a0 All you have to do is type the word \u201cBUILD\u201d into the key code box on the online donation form if you\u2019d like the studies.\u00a0 Or you can call 1-800-FLTODAY and make your donation by phone, just ask for the study guides that were talked about on the radio.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, again go online, at FamilyLifeToday.com, make your donation there and type the word \u201cBUILD\u201d into the key code box.\u00a0 Or call, 1-800-FLTODAY, make your donation by phone and ask for the study guides.\u00a0 And we hope you\u2019ll find them helpful in your own marriage and as you try to reach out to others to help strengthen their marriage as well.\u00a0 Thanks for your support of this ministry; we appreciate your partnership with us.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTomorrow Leslie Vernick is going to be back with us, we\u2019re going to continue talking about some of the struggles she experienced in her relationship with her mom, as well as what we can do when we\u2019re in an emotionally destructive relationship.\u00a0 I hope you can be back with us for that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today Keith Lynch and our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHelp for today.\u00a0 Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts for you. However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright \u00a9 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>www.FamilyLife.com<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>","theme_header_position":"","post_header_is_sticky":"","is_header_overlay":""},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/302009","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/91"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=302009"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/294104"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=302009"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=302009"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=302009"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=302009"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=302009"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=302009"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}