{"id":301974,"date":"2010-02-02T12:00:00","date_gmt":"2010-02-02T17:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/we-still-do-michael-and-cindy-easley-part-2\/"},"modified":"2025-01-16T11:19:37","modified_gmt":"2025-01-16T16:19:37","slug":"we-still-do-michael-and-cindy-easley-part-2","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/we-still-do-michael-and-cindy-easley-part-2\/","title":{"rendered":"We Still Do:  Michael and Cindy Easley, Part 2"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Storms and trials don\u2019t have to destroy you.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Storms and trials don\u2019t have to destroy you.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"audio","audio_file":"https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2010-02-02.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:","filesize":"16.28M","filesize_raw":"17072208","date_recorded":"2010-02-02 12:00:00","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2809,2885],"tags":[4690,5106],"podcast_series":[7704],"cwp_profile":[3391,9095],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-301974","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-commitment","category-good-marriages-made-better","tag-covenant-marriage","tag-married-for-a-lifetime","podcast_series-we-still-do-michael-and-cindy-easley","cwp_profile-cindy-easley","cwp_profile-michael-easley","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/301974\/we-still-do-michael-and-cindy-easley-part-2","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/301974\/we-still-do-michael-and-cindy-easley-part-2","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"AbglisnjEK\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/we-still-do-michael-and-cindy-easley-part-2\/\">We Still Do:  Michael and Cindy Easley, Part 2<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/we-still-do-michael-and-cindy-easley-part-2\/embed\/#?secret=AbglisnjEK\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;We Still Do:  Michael and Cindy Easley, Part 2&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"AbglisnjEK\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2010-02-02.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2010-02-02.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<p><strong>\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 How does a marriage that starts off so hopeful often wind up quickly deteriorating?\u00a0 Here's Cindy Easley.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Cindy:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>You know, you get so busy in your stuff ... he was working.\u00a0 I was working that you start not communicating again.\u00a0 After our first six months we had gotten pretty good at communicating.\u00a0 But just with the dailyness of work, and housekeeping, and everything it took, that slipped away.\u00a0 If you don\u2019t work at it every day it\u2019s gone.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Tuesday, February 2<sup>nd<\/sup>.\u00a0 Our host is the President of FamilyLife is Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.\u00a0 Michael and Cindy Easley join us today to talk about the season in their marriage when they looked at each other and said I think we need to see a marriage counselor.<\/p>\n<p>And welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\u00a0 Thanks for joining us on the Tuesday edition.\u00a0 I wonder what our listeners would do Dennis if all of a sudden they found out through the grapevine somehow that their pastor and his wife had had to go spend some time with a marriage counselor.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 I think they'd be relieved.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 You don't think that would create a big scandal around the church?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Oh, I think some of the more narrow-minded saints might.\u00a0 [Laughter.]\u00a0 And I would say ...<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 How do you really feel about that?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Well, I think some of the narrow-minded, people who aren't grace oriented, might call 911 over it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 But I think in reality there are times in a marriage when even a spiritual leader, a Christian leader, needs to get advice.\u00a0 I have people that give me advice.\u00a0 You and I, we interact over the broadcast here, but we talk to one another frequently about \"what would you do if?\"<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 That's right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 I've talked to our guests on the broadcast today and asked for advice on matters.\u00a0 You know, the person who is not teachable ... in fact, if you look at the book of proverbs, one of the key themes in the book of proverbs is a teachable spirit, is a person who is willing to learn ... learn from God, learn from others, learn from those in authority.<\/p>\n<p>I don't know any marriage that at some point in its existence that doesn't need a third party to step in and say \"Could I give you some insights?\u00a0 Could I give you some wisdom?\"\u00a0 In fact, Bob, I wish someone in our first five years of marriage would have said to me, \"You know, Dennis, Barbara, the best thing you can invest in right now would be a little wheel alignment.\"\u00a0 You know, a space shuttle can miss the moon if you're just a little off at the beginning.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 That's right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Like one degree.\u00a0 You can miss the orbit and end up not achieving your objective.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 I don't usually come to you and say \"What would I do if?\"\u00a0 It's usually \"What should I have done last night?\"\u00a0 But we're going to meet a couple today that got that wheel alignment early on in their marriage.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 That's right.\u00a0 Michael and Cindy Easley, a pair of friends, join us on the broadcast today.\u00a0 Cindy, Michael, welcome back to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Cindy:<\/strong>\u00a0 Thank you.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Michael:<\/strong>\u00a0 Thanks, Dennis.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 We have to say not only did you get that wheel alignment for your own marriage but you have spoken to tens of thousands of couples over the years at FamilyLife\u2019s Weekend to Remember\u00ae marriage conferences helping them with their marriages.\u00a0 In fact, next weekend not this coming weekend but Valentine\u2019s weekend, you and Cindy are going to be with Dennis and Barbara up at the Gaylord National hotel in the Washington, D.C. area where you pastored Emmanuel Bible Church for a number of years.\u00a0 You will be speaking that weekend at the Weekend to Remember\u00ae conference that is going on there.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019m going to be at the Hershey Lodge in Hershey, Pennsylvania that same weekend.\u00a0 We\u2019ve got other conferences on Valentine\u2019s weekend in other parts of the country and throughout the spring we are going to be hosting our Weekend to Remember\u00ae in some great locations.\u00a0 We hope our listeners will follow your example and get their own wheel alignment for a fun, romantic weekend getaway with us at an upcoming Weekend to Remember\u00ae marriage conference.<\/p>\n<p>There is more information on our website at FamilyLifeToday.com.\u00a0 We probably ought to mention Dennis that Michael is the pastor at Fellowship Bible Church in Franklin, Tennessee.\u00a0 He is past president of the Moody Bible Institute.\u00a0 Cindy is also an author and speaker and as I\u2019ve said they have spoken to couples all across the country about marriage.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 In addition to all that, they took me the other day, Bob, to a restaurant near Washington, D.C. ... Barbara and I went out to eat with them, and we had some Vietnamese food.\u00a0 What was it called?\u00a0 A Taste of Saigon?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Michael:<\/strong>\u00a0 A Taste of Saigon.\u00a0 Free advertisement.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 I'm telling you, that was some mean cuisine that we had.\u00a0 They didn't make that stuff in Ozark, Missouri, I want to tell you, where I grew up.<\/p>\n<p>Well, if you listened to yesterday's broadcast, you found out that this pastor and his wife started out their marriage ... they started their marriage out on the rock of Jesus Christ, but they had some floods and some winds, and some rain, and their house didn't fall, but it quaked.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 There was a tornado or two that blew through East Texas.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 You guys weathered those storms.\u00a0 In fact, you describe your marriage to the folks who attend our FamilyLife marriage conference when you two speak you describe it in some pretty descriptive words.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Michael:<\/strong>\u00a0 The first six months of our marriage was hell.\u00a0 It was really interesting.\u00a0 We got beyond some of those junctures and I remember we sat in a Bonanza restaurant during the first year of our marriage talking like crazy, just chattering across the table, laughing, having a great time.\u00a0 And we looked over and saw a couple across from us and they didn't say one word the whole meal.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Just picking at their food.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Michael:<\/strong>\u00a0 That's right.\u00a0 And I looked at Cindy, I remember looking at her, telling her, \"You know, honey, we'll never be that way.\"\u00a0 Well, about a year later we sat in that Bonanza and ate a meal without a word.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Really?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Michael:<\/strong>\u00a0 Really.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 You were that other couple.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Michael:<\/strong>\u00a0 That's right.\u00a0 In one year.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Do you remember that meal, Cindy?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Cindy:<\/strong>\u00a0 I do.\u00a0 I do.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dennis: <\/strong>\u00a0What prompted it?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Cindy:<\/strong>\u00a0 The not talking?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Cindy:<\/strong>\u00a0 Just the dailyness of life.\u00a0 You know, you get so busy in your stuff ... he was working.\u00a0 I was working ... that you start not communicating again.\u00a0 You know, we had gotten after our first six months pretty good at communicating.\u00a0 But just with the daily-ness of work, and housekeeping, and everything it took, that slipped away.\u00a0 We learned quickly if you don't work at it every day, it's gone.\u00a0 So there we were in the Bonanza not talking, and it hit us both.\u00a0 Oh my goodness, what has happened?\u00a0 How did we get here again?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 I\u2019ve got to jump in here.\u00a0 So you have a meal in a Bonanza and you don\u2019t talk to one another very much during the meal we\u2019ve all had those.\u00a0 But we didn\u2019t wake up the next morning and call the marriage counselor and say we need to make an appointment to come see you.\u00a0 I mean, what was going on here?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Cindy:<\/strong>\u00a0 I think what it was, is that we had this pervasive boredom in our marriage and we both wondered is this all there is?\u00a0 Is this as good as it gets?\u00a0 We weren\u2019t arguing or fighting but we were bored.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Stale?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Cindy:<\/strong>\u00a0 Stale.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Were you a pastor at this point?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Michael:<\/strong>\u00a0 No, and let me fast forward a little bit in time because we moved from Nacadoches, Texas where we had had our first year of marriage.\u00a0 We go to Dallas.\u00a0 I attend graduate school for a four-year program and you get caught in the synergy and the routines, jobs, and that type of thing.\u00a0 I finished seminary.<\/p>\n<p>We go to our first church in Grand Prairie, Texas.\u00a0 It\u2019s a great experience, great ministry opportunity for Cindy and for me.\u00a0 And we hit the 10-year mark.\u00a0 We are now looking at 10 years of marriage.\u00a0 I'm looking at the landscape of my job, my life.\u00a0 We have a child now who is six.\u00a0 We have an adopted child now who is an infant, after five years of infertility.\u00a0 So, we've weathered a few things and we look around, and I just wondered, you know, \"Is this what my marriage is going to be like?\"<\/p>\n<p>I mean, I like this woman.\u00a0 I love her.\u00a0 We get along pretty well.\u00a0 But I looked around the landscape and saw very few marriages that were still passionate, growing in Christ, deeper in their relationship.\u00a0 Frankly, I would look across the audience of our church and wonder how many of these marriages are just C-minus and how many of them are Ds.\u00a0 I really couldn't point to five or six or 10 that were As.\u00a0 And I thought, you know, entropy is tough to beat.<\/p>\n<p>I have a friend who is a mentor and we used to meet quite often, a 72-year-old retired psychologist.\u00a0 I asked him one time, \"Do you think it would be beneficial if we went to counseling?\"\u00a0 And he said, \"Yes, I do.\"\u00a0 And he articulated several reasons why.<\/p>\n<p>So very a typically I was the one who said I think we ought to go to counseling.\u00a0 I investigated on my own.\u00a0 I found a name, a neutral party, someone we didn't know, and I went and made an appointment with this guy.\u00a0 And I said to him, \"Steve, 10 years of marriage.\u00a0 This is how I'm feeling.\u00a0 I'm feeling and wondering if this is as good as it gets.\u00a0 If so, help me understand that set of expectations.\u00a0 If not, help me make it better.\"<\/p>\n<p>We had a great chat.\u00a0 He said, \"Yeah, I think we could help you, but it's a three-month waiting list with my client load.\"\u00a0 I said, \"I'll wait.\"\u00a0 So, I drive home that day.\u00a0 I'm all excited.\u00a0 I walk in the front door and I say, \"Honey, I went to a marriage counselor and we're going to go see him in three months and start marriage counseling.\"<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Rock your world, huh?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Cindy:<\/strong>\u00a0 Oh, I was not happy.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Oh really?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Cindy:<\/strong>\u00a0 We are totally opposite of most couples.\u00a0 Usually it's the wife that's dragging the husband to counseling, but I did not want to go.\u00a0 A lot of it was I knew I had issues that I needed to deal with personally, and I didn't want to go to that pain.\u00a0 I didn't want to feel it.\u00a0 So my reaction to Michael was, \"No.\u00a0 No, no.\u00a0 Let's not go.\u00a0 Just tell me what to do and I'll do it.\"<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 You know, as Cindy was talking, I was thinking about John 15.\u00a0 It's a section in the New Testament where Jesus is talking about fruit bearing.\u00a0 Basically, the bottom line of his illustration is he talks about the vineyard and the father being the vine dresser. There is no gain without pain.\u00a0 There is not fruit without first pruning the branches of the vine.<\/p>\n<p>What Cindy is talking about here I think typifies so many Christians today.\u00a0 We don't want the pain associated with the father who is the vine dressing coming into our lives and clipping away some of the dead branches and some of the branches that aren't bearing fruit so that we can be even more fruitful.\u00a0 We're willing to settle in at year 10, or maybe it's earlier than that ... maybe it's year three ... we're willing to settle in to mediocrity and not ever be the fruit bearers that Jesus Christ wants us to be.<\/p>\n<p>And you think about it, there are all levels of fruit bearing ... 30, 60 and 100 fold Jesus said in another parable.\u00a0 I don't enjoy pain either, but I sure enjoy the fruit.\u00a0 If we understand what Jesus is talking about here, if we abide in Christ, then the father, who is the vine dresser will visit our lives.\u00a0 Sometimes through a counselor, sometimes through our spouse, and there will be some clipping and snipping so that we can bear more fruit in our marriage, our family and our lives.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 You know, Michael, I've though in my marriage, I think most folks have, okay, it's not perfect.\u00a0 It's not great.\u00a0 It's probably better than average, it's a C-plus.\u00a0 My grade point average here is a 2.5.\u00a0 I'm going to graduate, not with honors, but the option of really getting in and digging around and being with a counselor, I'd rather coast sometimes than address those issues.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Michael:<\/strong>\u00a0 Counseling was an opportunity to have somebody else help me with a problem.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 But there's the pride issue in both a man and a woman, of having to face your, quote, issues.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Michael:<\/strong>\u00a0 Well, the pride issue verses a C-minus relationship with the soul mate God gave me stinks.\u00a0 I don't care about my pride.\u00a0 This is a soul mate that Jesus gave to me.\u00a0 This should be the most intimate relationship I have, and I mean non-sexually intimate ... this should be the most non-sexual intimate relationship I have with the woman God gave me.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Did the people in your church know you were going to counseling?\u00a0 Did the elders know you were going to counseling?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Michael:<\/strong>\u00a0 At first not.\u00a0 At first we did it in such a way ... I had a fantastic secretary ... I said \"Look, we're going to do this thing once a week.\u00a0 I need your help.\"\u00a0 And she was a very trustworthy person.\u00a0 So once a week we\u2019d hop in the car and drive 30 minutes to Dallas had an hour of counseling and drove back in silence.<\/p>\n<p>(laughter)<\/p>\n<p><strong>Cindy:<\/strong>\u00a0 Not always.\u00a0 But at first it was certainly silent.\u00a0 Our counselor was absolutely brilliant.\u00a0 The first six weeks of counseling he talked to Michael and he let me listen.\u00a0 He knew that Michael was the one who was seeking counseling and I think I made it pretty clear the first day we sat down with him that I didn\u2019t really want to be there.\u00a0 I would communicate when I was forced to but that I wasn\u2019t comfortable with the situation.\u00a0 I never felt attacked.\u00a0 I felt loved before I ever opened my mouth.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 The counseling profession is not unlike a lot of other professions whether it be the pastorate or a politician or a businessman you have good ones and bad ones.\u00a0 There are some who do an accurate job of handling the scripture and of giving counsel according to the Bible and others who pretty much ignore it.<\/p>\n<p>I think in the right hands a couple like this can benefit from a Christian counselor who is basing his approach upon the scripture.\u00a0 There are members of the body of Christ that can help us at crisis points in our lives.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Michael:<\/strong>\u00a0 Dennis, I\u2019m going to be a pastor for just a moment.\u00a0 There are a lot of counselors out there who have a shingle and they have Christian near their name but I want to underscore and agree with what you said.\u00a0 It\u2019s got to be a good counselor.\u00a0 There are a lot of counselors who have a shingle and a degree and frankly it\u2019s like a lot of churches.\u00a0 They are not teaching the scripture.<\/p>\n<p>I sure don\u2019t want anyone to think everybody needs to go to counseling.\u00a0 The reason I wanted to go was because I was not content with a mediocre or even a C+ marriage.\u00a0 I wasn\u2019t smart enough and I needed someone who could help me with a problem.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 The word eventually leaked out or somehow got revealed to the church.\u00a0 Did you announce it on a Sunday morning and say my wife and I have been in counseling?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Michael:<\/strong>\u00a0 No, I did not.\u00a0 Now there would come a point in sermons years later where I refer to that without any pause to the fact that Cindy and I went through marital counseling.\u00a0 And I\u2019m very comfortable with that as she is today.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Cindy, if somebody came to you and said \"I don't know if we need counseling or not,\" how can you help somebody determine it would be good for you to go, verses no, you probably don't need it?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Cindy:<\/strong>\u00a0 Well, I think the first thing that I would tell them is to have an appointment with their pastor to see what the pastor says.\u00a0 If the pastor goes, \"You know, let's just look at these verses and let's talk about this, maybe we've just got some role issues we need to discuss.\"<\/p>\n<p>But usually I think if somebody says \"Do we need to go to counseling?\" my initial response would be, \"Make an appointment with a counselor and just talk to him one time.\u00a0 Ask him what he thinks.\"\u00a0 If there are issues that bother you and you just need somebody else to help you talk them out, I think that it's important.<\/p>\n<p>We told a few friends about it, and I don't think we actually told a group until we were totally finished with counseling.\u00a0 But the thing that surprised me was the number of people I had that came to me after my counseling was over that said, \"Cindy, you have changed.\u00a0 What is different about you?\"\u00a0 People who didn't know I had been in counseling but saw that I was softer.\u00a0 I was more comfortable with how God made me.<\/p>\n<p>One of the biggest things I learned from counseling is that God loves me exactly like I am.\u00a0 That was something I had never understood because I had always walled myself up and that\u2019s why I couldn\u2019t give all my emotions to Michael.\u00a0 I was afraid to reveal who I was for fear of rejection.\u00a0 As I learned that God loves me in my sin I was saved but I hadn\u2019t experienced that until I went through counseling.\u00a0 I wanted to shout it to the world.<\/p>\n<p>I could relate to their pain because I had always kept people at a distance because I feared their pain.\u00a0 As they saw that I was beginning to move into other people's lives, they saw I was different.\u00a0 And then, frankly, I could proudly say, \"Oh, God led us to the best counselor to help me with issues that I should have dealt with years ago, that I finally dealt with them.\"<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Michael as she was sharing you were getting pretty emotional here.\u00a0 What are you feeling?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Michael:<\/strong>\u00a0 My mentor friend who I mentioned who is in his 70s is the closest male friend I\u2019ve ever had.\u00a0 In a lot of ways he\u2019s the spiritual father that a lot of men long for and God gave that to me in a man who has had such a remarkable impact.\u00a0 He said in 20 years of counseling I\u2019ve never seen a person change as dramatically as Cindy.\u00a0 And that is true.\u00a0 I got a new wife.\u00a0 My wife was a wonderful person when we got married and in our early years of marriage.\u00a0 But here was a woman who was able to tap in to some things spiritually and emotionally that she had never been allowed to tap into before.<\/p>\n<p>It was funny because we had one of the most incredible arguments we\u2019d ever had had in our marriage yelling and screaming.\u00a0 I\u2019m mad at Cindy like I\u2019ve never been before and she\u2019s laughing at me.\u00a0 And I asked, how can you laugh at me?\u00a0 She says before counseling I didn\u2019t know how.<\/p>\n<p>(laughter)<\/p>\n<p>It was so wonderful to see that she had understood the pain and the joy and it started to unfold.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Cindy, as you were saying that, you've shared in the process of today's broadcast that you're pretty reserved, can be stoic, maybe a little distant from time to time, but I was watching you as you were sharing that, I think I saw a tear.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Cindy:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\u00a0 Oh yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 I think I heard some emotion.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Cindy:<\/strong>\u00a0\u00a0 I have to tell you, counseling has made me very emotional.\u00a0 I'm the one now that every praise song ends up weeping in church.\u00a0 And my children are looking up at me going \"What is wrong with you, woman?\" because it did allow me to get in touch with both my pain and my joy in a way that I never felt.\u00a0 I learned that you can't experience joy until you experience pain.\u00a0 You have to see the contradiction or the contrast in the two to get both extremes.\u00a0 And I like both extremes now ... not that I go out and look for pain, but I do go out and look for joy.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Do you hear the process?\u00a0 First the snip, snip, snip of the vine dresser on the vine that is to bear fruit, and now the fruit, people observing in Cindy's life.<\/p>\n<p>I've got to ask you because one of the things that prompted you to go seek counseling was the desire to share those intimate moments in a non-sexual situation.\u00a0 Was there a time, Michael, when you knew that the counseling had been worth it?\u00a0 That she really entered into the joy, the pain of what you were feeling as a man?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Michael:<\/strong>\u00a0 Dennis, I came under an interesting assault in ministry at one juncture, and it was from a professional, personal, emotional experience the worst thing I had ever tasted.\u00a0 My character was being maligned, some accusations were roiling around in the church family, and there was good reason for people to look at us at a distance and wonder \"Is this guy really true, or is there some ... you know, is there something rotten in his life?\"<\/p>\n<p>So I was coming home pretty beat up from some long, interesting church meetings.\u00a0 There was one particular event where I came home and all I could do emotionally was go to bed, get up, shave, shower and go to work.\u00a0 There was ... there was nothing there.\u00a0 It was a flat line emotionally.\u00a0 And during those assaults, to have my wife with me, she was there.\u00a0 She understood me.\u00a0 She believed in me.\u00a0 She knew the allegations and accusations were false.\u00a0 She knew that my character was the same man she married.\u00a0 She trusted me.\u00a0 And to weather that experience with her, it was a remarkable time.<\/p>\n<p>There was a verse in Exodus, I think it's 14:17, that she quoted to me one morning on the way out the door.\u00a0 She said, \"Michael,\" she said, \"God told Moses when he was at the Red Sea and Pharaoh's army was behind him to stand by and see the salvation of your Lord today.\"<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Cindy, as you were watching him go through that, what were you feeling?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Cindy:<\/strong>\u00a0\u00a0 Oh, I feel all the emotions again as if we were there yesterday.\u00a0 And again, it is such a joy to be able to enter into his emotional state, whatever it is, good or bad, and to feel my own.\u00a0 It's not just to enter into his, but it's to feel my own emotions as well.<\/p>\n<p>Every time we tell this story, I talk a little bit about counseling when I speak at the FamilyLife Marriage Conferences and what counseling has done for me.\u00a0 I know again that Michael and I are opposite of most couples, and so if there's any men that I could reach today, I would say please listen to your wives.\u00a0 You have an emotional side to you.\u00a0 Please, if she is begging for your emotional side to come out, do whatever it takes so that you can experience the oneness that Michael and I can experience.\u00a0 You can't experience it without that emotional oneness, without emotional intimacy.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 And there are a lot of men, Bob, who are listening to the broadcast right now who quite frankly can identify with Cindy's fear, their insecurity, not wanting to face the pain, not knowing what it means to have to delve into those issues.\u00a0 We are made in the image of God.\u00a0 A part of that image that he stamped within us is our emotional being.<\/p>\n<p>It's the side that Christians, I think, feel most uncomfortable with because you can't touch it, you can't grasp it, you can't put your arms around it, and yet God is a god of jealousy and anger and love.\u00a0 He is a God of peace.\u00a0 And he wants us to be in full reflection of him.\u00a0 At some point it may mean for a married couple that they need to submit to the counsel of a third party in their marriage, and that can bring peace, wholeness, and goodness to their home.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 We\u2019ve talked to a number of marriage counselors who have said to us that they recommend to a couple before they even get into counseling is that they come out and spend a weekend with us at a FamilyLife\u2019s Weekend to Remember\u00ae marriage conferences.<\/p>\n<p>In fact I talked to one counselor one time who said if a couple will do that often it takes six months off the counseling time that he needs with them.\u00a0 In some cases they don\u2019t need the counseling after all.\u00a0 The weekend gives them the tools they need to patch up the issues that have emerged in their relationship.\u00a0 And really for every married couple to take some time and get away and focus on your marriage that\u2019s good preventive maintenance.<\/p>\n<p>I mentioned that you guys are the Easleys and the Raineys are going to be together not this weekend but next weekend speaking at the FamilyLife Weekend to Remember\u00ae marriage conference that we are hosting in Washington, D.C. at the Gaylord National hotel.\u00a0 We still have room available for those who would like to attend this fun, romantic getaway for couples.\u00a0 In fact that weekend that weekend, Valentine\u2019s weekend, is the kickoff of our spring conference season.<\/p>\n<p>While you guys are going to be in the nation\u2019s capital I\u2019m going to be in the chocolate capital in Hershey, Pennsylvania at the Hershey lodge.\u00a0 We have other conferences that same weekend and in the weeks to come all across the country.\u00a0 We really believe that for a marriage to go the distance from time to time you need to get a tune up done.\u00a0 You need to pull off to the side and let the engine cool off a little bit and let our mechanics take a look under the hood and let us perform the necessary preventive maintenance.<\/p>\n<p>You can find out more when you go to our website FamilyLifeToday.com or call 1-800-FL-TODAY.\u00a0 Our team can help with that.<\/p>\n<p>If you can\u2019t get to a conference this spring but you want to do something that is really good for your marriage get together with four or five other couples and get one of our HomeBuilders Couples Series\u00ae study guide.\u00a0 It\u2019s a curriculum for small groups and it\u2019s all about building your marriage relationship and building your spouse.<\/p>\n<p>Meet together every other week with these other couples and just have a conversation about marriage.\u00a0 We\u2019ve got studies on communication and how to handle pressure in marriage, growing together in Christ, how to resolve conflict and how to work together as a team.\u00a0 We take core issues and deal with them in these HomeBuilders study guides.\u00a0 These are self led and nobody has to be the expert when you get together and work your way through these questions.<\/p>\n<p>I think the point we are trying to make is do something for your marriage.\u00a0 Come to a conference or join a HomeBuilders group whatever it is be intentional.\u00a0 Be purposeful.\u00a0 Be deliberate.<\/p>\n<p>Speaking of things you can do to help your marriage this month if you are able to help with a donation of any amount to help support the ministry of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> we have a CD that we\u2019d love to send you.\u00a0 It features Linda and Jody Dillow.\u00a0 The title of the message is <em>The Four Flames of Marital Intimacy<\/em> and if you\u2019d like to receive the CD when you make your donation online at FamilyLifeToday.com just type the word \u201cFOUR\u201d into the key code box on the online donation form.<\/p>\n<p>Or call 1-800-FL-TODAY and you can make a donation over the phone.\u00a0 When you call just ask for the CD on marital intimacy or the CD with the Dillows.\u00a0 We will be happy to send it out to you again as our way of saying thank you for your support of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p>As we've heard the story today, Dennis, of Michael and Cindy going to counseling, I just ... I want to know from the two of them, you went there with a ... you said it was a C-minus, that would be a little worse than average.\u00a0 I'm guessing it was maybe an average marriage, right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Michael:<\/strong>\u00a0 Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 But you said \"I don't want it to be average.\"\u00a0 So, what's the grade today?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Michael:<\/strong>\u00a0 A-plus, Bob.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 No, is it?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Michael:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes, it is.\u00a0 I used to hear couples that were married 30 years say, \"Oh, I love my spouse more than the day I married them.\"\u00a0 And I used to say to myself, \"They're lying.\"<\/p>\n<p>[Laughter.]<\/p>\n<p>\"They're lying men.\"\u00a0 And you know, we have almost 20 years now, and God has been so gracious to us.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Is it an A-plus, Cindy?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Cindy:<\/strong>\u00a0 Oh yes, definitely.\u00a0 Definitely.\u00a0 And every minute was worth it in counseling.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 This isn't just because you're on national radio and everybody is listening and you have to say that?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Cindy:<\/strong>\u00a0 No.\u00a0 Okay, we have our A-minus days.<\/p>\n<p>[Laughter.]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yeah, right.\u00a0 You have your B days with all of us.\u00a0 But you know, the real question is, I think, Bob, that's a good health ... kind of a health test question.\u00a0 Would you want your children to experience a relationship like you've had with your spouse?\u00a0 And if you wouldn't want your son or daughter to experience that, then you've got to ask yourself why would you continue to allow yourself to experience that.\u00a0 Do something about it.\u00a0 Go to a FamilyLife Marriage Conference, get some counsel, get into a small group, a Home Builders Bible Study, do something.<\/p>\n<p>And I know, Bob, at this point we're speaking to a group where half of the marital equation wants to have it, the other half is, as Cindy addressed earlier, refusing that, and that's a difficult situation.\u00a0 My encouragement is pray.\u00a0 Ask God to break through.<\/p>\n<p><em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas.<\/p>\n<p>Help for today.\u00a0 Hope for tomorrow.<\/p>\n<p><strong>\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>We are so happy to provide these transcripts for you. However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?<\/p>\n<p>Copyright \u00a9 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.<\/p>\n<p><strong>www.FamilyLife.com<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n"],"duration":["00:"],"_thumbnail_id":["294104"],"filesize":["16.28M"],"filesize_raw":["17072208"],"_edit_lock":["1737044453:47000"],"_edit_last":["47000"],"theme_header_position":["Sticky"],"post_header_is_sticky":["default"],"is_header_overlay":["0"],"episode_type":["audio"],"date_recorded":["2010-02-02 12:00:00"],"enclosure":["https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2010-02-02.mp3"],"_seopress_redirections_type":["301"],"_seopress_redirections_logged_status":["both"],"_seopress_analysis_target_kw":[""],"_uag_css_file_name":["uag-css-301974.css"],"_uag_js_file_name":["uag-js-301974.js"],"_uag_page_assets":["a:9:{s:3:\"css\";s:82560:\".wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-top svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-top .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: 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and trials don\u2019t have to destroy you.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2010-02-02.pdf","transcript_content":"<p><strong>\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 How does a marriage that starts off so hopeful often wind up quickly deteriorating?\u00a0 Here's Cindy Easley.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Cindy:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>You know, you get so busy in your stuff ... he was working.\u00a0 I was working that you start not communicating again.\u00a0 After our first six months we had gotten pretty good at communicating.\u00a0 But just with the dailyness of work, and housekeeping, and everything it took, that slipped away.\u00a0 If you don\u2019t work at it every day it\u2019s gone.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Tuesday, February 2<sup>nd<\/sup>.\u00a0 Our host is the President of FamilyLife is Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.\u00a0 Michael and Cindy Easley join us today to talk about the season in their marriage when they looked at each other and said I think we need to see a marriage counselor.<\/p>\n<p>And welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\u00a0 Thanks for joining us on the Tuesday edition.\u00a0 I wonder what our listeners would do Dennis if all of a sudden they found out through the grapevine somehow that their pastor and his wife had had to go spend some time with a marriage counselor.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 I think they'd be relieved.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 You don't think that would create a big scandal around the church?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Oh, I think some of the more narrow-minded saints might.\u00a0 [Laughter.]\u00a0 And I would say ...<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 How do you really feel about that?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Well, I think some of the narrow-minded, people who aren't grace oriented, might call 911 over it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 But I think in reality there are times in a marriage when even a spiritual leader, a Christian leader, needs to get advice.\u00a0 I have people that give me advice.\u00a0 You and I, we interact over the broadcast here, but we talk to one another frequently about \"what would you do if?\"<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 That's right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 I've talked to our guests on the broadcast today and asked for advice on matters.\u00a0 You know, the person who is not teachable ... in fact, if you look at the book of proverbs, one of the key themes in the book of proverbs is a teachable spirit, is a person who is willing to learn ... learn from God, learn from others, learn from those in authority.<\/p>\n<p>I don't know any marriage that at some point in its existence that doesn't need a third party to step in and say \"Could I give you some insights?\u00a0 Could I give you some wisdom?\"\u00a0 In fact, Bob, I wish someone in our first five years of marriage would have said to me, \"You know, Dennis, Barbara, the best thing you can invest in right now would be a little wheel alignment.\"\u00a0 You know, a space shuttle can miss the moon if you're just a little off at the beginning.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 That's right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Like one degree.\u00a0 You can miss the orbit and end up not achieving your objective.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 I don't usually come to you and say \"What would I do if?\"\u00a0 It's usually \"What should I have done last night?\"\u00a0 But we're going to meet a couple today that got that wheel alignment early on in their marriage.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 That's right.\u00a0 Michael and Cindy Easley, a pair of friends, join us on the broadcast today.\u00a0 Cindy, Michael, welcome back to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Cindy:<\/strong>\u00a0 Thank you.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Michael:<\/strong>\u00a0 Thanks, Dennis.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 We have to say not only did you get that wheel alignment for your own marriage but you have spoken to tens of thousands of couples over the years at FamilyLife\u2019s Weekend to Remember\u00ae marriage conferences helping them with their marriages.\u00a0 In fact, next weekend not this coming weekend but Valentine\u2019s weekend, you and Cindy are going to be with Dennis and Barbara up at the Gaylord National hotel in the Washington, D.C. area where you pastored Emmanuel Bible Church for a number of years.\u00a0 You will be speaking that weekend at the Weekend to Remember\u00ae conference that is going on there.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019m going to be at the Hershey Lodge in Hershey, Pennsylvania that same weekend.\u00a0 We\u2019ve got other conferences on Valentine\u2019s weekend in other parts of the country and throughout the spring we are going to be hosting our Weekend to Remember\u00ae in some great locations.\u00a0 We hope our listeners will follow your example and get their own wheel alignment for a fun, romantic weekend getaway with us at an upcoming Weekend to Remember\u00ae marriage conference.<\/p>\n<p>There is more information on our website at FamilyLifeToday.com.\u00a0 We probably ought to mention Dennis that Michael is the pastor at Fellowship Bible Church in Franklin, Tennessee.\u00a0 He is past president of the Moody Bible Institute.\u00a0 Cindy is also an author and speaker and as I\u2019ve said they have spoken to couples all across the country about marriage.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 In addition to all that, they took me the other day, Bob, to a restaurant near Washington, D.C. ... Barbara and I went out to eat with them, and we had some Vietnamese food.\u00a0 What was it called?\u00a0 A Taste of Saigon?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Michael:<\/strong>\u00a0 A Taste of Saigon.\u00a0 Free advertisement.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 I'm telling you, that was some mean cuisine that we had.\u00a0 They didn't make that stuff in Ozark, Missouri, I want to tell you, where I grew up.<\/p>\n<p>Well, if you listened to yesterday's broadcast, you found out that this pastor and his wife started out their marriage ... they started their marriage out on the rock of Jesus Christ, but they had some floods and some winds, and some rain, and their house didn't fall, but it quaked.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 There was a tornado or two that blew through East Texas.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 You guys weathered those storms.\u00a0 In fact, you describe your marriage to the folks who attend our FamilyLife marriage conference when you two speak you describe it in some pretty descriptive words.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Michael:<\/strong>\u00a0 The first six months of our marriage was hell.\u00a0 It was really interesting.\u00a0 We got beyond some of those junctures and I remember we sat in a Bonanza restaurant during the first year of our marriage talking like crazy, just chattering across the table, laughing, having a great time.\u00a0 And we looked over and saw a couple across from us and they didn't say one word the whole meal.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Just picking at their food.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Michael:<\/strong>\u00a0 That's right.\u00a0 And I looked at Cindy, I remember looking at her, telling her, \"You know, honey, we'll never be that way.\"\u00a0 Well, about a year later we sat in that Bonanza and ate a meal without a word.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Really?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Michael:<\/strong>\u00a0 Really.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 You were that other couple.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Michael:<\/strong>\u00a0 That's right.\u00a0 In one year.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Do you remember that meal, Cindy?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Cindy:<\/strong>\u00a0 I do.\u00a0 I do.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dennis: <\/strong>\u00a0What prompted it?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Cindy:<\/strong>\u00a0 The not talking?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Cindy:<\/strong>\u00a0 Just the dailyness of life.\u00a0 You know, you get so busy in your stuff ... he was working.\u00a0 I was working ... that you start not communicating again.\u00a0 You know, we had gotten after our first six months pretty good at communicating.\u00a0 But just with the daily-ness of work, and housekeeping, and everything it took, that slipped away.\u00a0 We learned quickly if you don't work at it every day, it's gone.\u00a0 So there we were in the Bonanza not talking, and it hit us both.\u00a0 Oh my goodness, what has happened?\u00a0 How did we get here again?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 I\u2019ve got to jump in here.\u00a0 So you have a meal in a Bonanza and you don\u2019t talk to one another very much during the meal we\u2019ve all had those.\u00a0 But we didn\u2019t wake up the next morning and call the marriage counselor and say we need to make an appointment to come see you.\u00a0 I mean, what was going on here?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Cindy:<\/strong>\u00a0 I think what it was, is that we had this pervasive boredom in our marriage and we both wondered is this all there is?\u00a0 Is this as good as it gets?\u00a0 We weren\u2019t arguing or fighting but we were bored.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Stale?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Cindy:<\/strong>\u00a0 Stale.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Were you a pastor at this point?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Michael:<\/strong>\u00a0 No, and let me fast forward a little bit in time because we moved from Nacadoches, Texas where we had had our first year of marriage.\u00a0 We go to Dallas.\u00a0 I attend graduate school for a four-year program and you get caught in the synergy and the routines, jobs, and that type of thing.\u00a0 I finished seminary.<\/p>\n<p>We go to our first church in Grand Prairie, Texas.\u00a0 It\u2019s a great experience, great ministry opportunity for Cindy and for me.\u00a0 And we hit the 10-year mark.\u00a0 We are now looking at 10 years of marriage.\u00a0 I'm looking at the landscape of my job, my life.\u00a0 We have a child now who is six.\u00a0 We have an adopted child now who is an infant, after five years of infertility.\u00a0 So, we've weathered a few things and we look around, and I just wondered, you know, \"Is this what my marriage is going to be like?\"<\/p>\n<p>I mean, I like this woman.\u00a0 I love her.\u00a0 We get along pretty well.\u00a0 But I looked around the landscape and saw very few marriages that were still passionate, growing in Christ, deeper in their relationship.\u00a0 Frankly, I would look across the audience of our church and wonder how many of these marriages are just C-minus and how many of them are Ds.\u00a0 I really couldn't point to five or six or 10 that were As.\u00a0 And I thought, you know, entropy is tough to beat.<\/p>\n<p>I have a friend who is a mentor and we used to meet quite often, a 72-year-old retired psychologist.\u00a0 I asked him one time, \"Do you think it would be beneficial if we went to counseling?\"\u00a0 And he said, \"Yes, I do.\"\u00a0 And he articulated several reasons why.<\/p>\n<p>So very a typically I was the one who said I think we ought to go to counseling.\u00a0 I investigated on my own.\u00a0 I found a name, a neutral party, someone we didn't know, and I went and made an appointment with this guy.\u00a0 And I said to him, \"Steve, 10 years of marriage.\u00a0 This is how I'm feeling.\u00a0 I'm feeling and wondering if this is as good as it gets.\u00a0 If so, help me understand that set of expectations.\u00a0 If not, help me make it better.\"<\/p>\n<p>We had a great chat.\u00a0 He said, \"Yeah, I think we could help you, but it's a three-month waiting list with my client load.\"\u00a0 I said, \"I'll wait.\"\u00a0 So, I drive home that day.\u00a0 I'm all excited.\u00a0 I walk in the front door and I say, \"Honey, I went to a marriage counselor and we're going to go see him in three months and start marriage counseling.\"<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Rock your world, huh?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Cindy:<\/strong>\u00a0 Oh, I was not happy.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Oh really?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Cindy:<\/strong>\u00a0 We are totally opposite of most couples.\u00a0 Usually it's the wife that's dragging the husband to counseling, but I did not want to go.\u00a0 A lot of it was I knew I had issues that I needed to deal with personally, and I didn't want to go to that pain.\u00a0 I didn't want to feel it.\u00a0 So my reaction to Michael was, \"No.\u00a0 No, no.\u00a0 Let's not go.\u00a0 Just tell me what to do and I'll do it.\"<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 You know, as Cindy was talking, I was thinking about John 15.\u00a0 It's a section in the New Testament where Jesus is talking about fruit bearing.\u00a0 Basically, the bottom line of his illustration is he talks about the vineyard and the father being the vine dresser. There is no gain without pain.\u00a0 There is not fruit without first pruning the branches of the vine.<\/p>\n<p>What Cindy is talking about here I think typifies so many Christians today.\u00a0 We don't want the pain associated with the father who is the vine dressing coming into our lives and clipping away some of the dead branches and some of the branches that aren't bearing fruit so that we can be even more fruitful.\u00a0 We're willing to settle in at year 10, or maybe it's earlier than that ... maybe it's year three ... we're willing to settle in to mediocrity and not ever be the fruit bearers that Jesus Christ wants us to be.<\/p>\n<p>And you think about it, there are all levels of fruit bearing ... 30, 60 and 100 fold Jesus said in another parable.\u00a0 I don't enjoy pain either, but I sure enjoy the fruit.\u00a0 If we understand what Jesus is talking about here, if we abide in Christ, then the father, who is the vine dresser will visit our lives.\u00a0 Sometimes through a counselor, sometimes through our spouse, and there will be some clipping and snipping so that we can bear more fruit in our marriage, our family and our lives.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 You know, Michael, I've though in my marriage, I think most folks have, okay, it's not perfect.\u00a0 It's not great.\u00a0 It's probably better than average, it's a C-plus.\u00a0 My grade point average here is a 2.5.\u00a0 I'm going to graduate, not with honors, but the option of really getting in and digging around and being with a counselor, I'd rather coast sometimes than address those issues.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Michael:<\/strong>\u00a0 Counseling was an opportunity to have somebody else help me with a problem.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 But there's the pride issue in both a man and a woman, of having to face your, quote, issues.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Michael:<\/strong>\u00a0 Well, the pride issue verses a C-minus relationship with the soul mate God gave me stinks.\u00a0 I don't care about my pride.\u00a0 This is a soul mate that Jesus gave to me.\u00a0 This should be the most intimate relationship I have, and I mean non-sexually intimate ... this should be the most non-sexual intimate relationship I have with the woman God gave me.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Did the people in your church know you were going to counseling?\u00a0 Did the elders know you were going to counseling?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Michael:<\/strong>\u00a0 At first not.\u00a0 At first we did it in such a way ... I had a fantastic secretary ... I said \"Look, we're going to do this thing once a week.\u00a0 I need your help.\"\u00a0 And she was a very trustworthy person.\u00a0 So once a week we\u2019d hop in the car and drive 30 minutes to Dallas had an hour of counseling and drove back in silence.<\/p>\n<p>(laughter)<\/p>\n<p><strong>Cindy:<\/strong>\u00a0 Not always.\u00a0 But at first it was certainly silent.\u00a0 Our counselor was absolutely brilliant.\u00a0 The first six weeks of counseling he talked to Michael and he let me listen.\u00a0 He knew that Michael was the one who was seeking counseling and I think I made it pretty clear the first day we sat down with him that I didn\u2019t really want to be there.\u00a0 I would communicate when I was forced to but that I wasn\u2019t comfortable with the situation.\u00a0 I never felt attacked.\u00a0 I felt loved before I ever opened my mouth.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 The counseling profession is not unlike a lot of other professions whether it be the pastorate or a politician or a businessman you have good ones and bad ones.\u00a0 There are some who do an accurate job of handling the scripture and of giving counsel according to the Bible and others who pretty much ignore it.<\/p>\n<p>I think in the right hands a couple like this can benefit from a Christian counselor who is basing his approach upon the scripture.\u00a0 There are members of the body of Christ that can help us at crisis points in our lives.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Michael:<\/strong>\u00a0 Dennis, I\u2019m going to be a pastor for just a moment.\u00a0 There are a lot of counselors out there who have a shingle and they have Christian near their name but I want to underscore and agree with what you said.\u00a0 It\u2019s got to be a good counselor.\u00a0 There are a lot of counselors who have a shingle and a degree and frankly it\u2019s like a lot of churches.\u00a0 They are not teaching the scripture.<\/p>\n<p>I sure don\u2019t want anyone to think everybody needs to go to counseling.\u00a0 The reason I wanted to go was because I was not content with a mediocre or even a C+ marriage.\u00a0 I wasn\u2019t smart enough and I needed someone who could help me with a problem.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 The word eventually leaked out or somehow got revealed to the church.\u00a0 Did you announce it on a Sunday morning and say my wife and I have been in counseling?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Michael:<\/strong>\u00a0 No, I did not.\u00a0 Now there would come a point in sermons years later where I refer to that without any pause to the fact that Cindy and I went through marital counseling.\u00a0 And I\u2019m very comfortable with that as she is today.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Cindy, if somebody came to you and said \"I don't know if we need counseling or not,\" how can you help somebody determine it would be good for you to go, verses no, you probably don't need it?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Cindy:<\/strong>\u00a0 Well, I think the first thing that I would tell them is to have an appointment with their pastor to see what the pastor says.\u00a0 If the pastor goes, \"You know, let's just look at these verses and let's talk about this, maybe we've just got some role issues we need to discuss.\"<\/p>\n<p>But usually I think if somebody says \"Do we need to go to counseling?\" my initial response would be, \"Make an appointment with a counselor and just talk to him one time.\u00a0 Ask him what he thinks.\"\u00a0 If there are issues that bother you and you just need somebody else to help you talk them out, I think that it's important.<\/p>\n<p>We told a few friends about it, and I don't think we actually told a group until we were totally finished with counseling.\u00a0 But the thing that surprised me was the number of people I had that came to me after my counseling was over that said, \"Cindy, you have changed.\u00a0 What is different about you?\"\u00a0 People who didn't know I had been in counseling but saw that I was softer.\u00a0 I was more comfortable with how God made me.<\/p>\n<p>One of the biggest things I learned from counseling is that God loves me exactly like I am.\u00a0 That was something I had never understood because I had always walled myself up and that\u2019s why I couldn\u2019t give all my emotions to Michael.\u00a0 I was afraid to reveal who I was for fear of rejection.\u00a0 As I learned that God loves me in my sin I was saved but I hadn\u2019t experienced that until I went through counseling.\u00a0 I wanted to shout it to the world.<\/p>\n<p>I could relate to their pain because I had always kept people at a distance because I feared their pain.\u00a0 As they saw that I was beginning to move into other people's lives, they saw I was different.\u00a0 And then, frankly, I could proudly say, \"Oh, God led us to the best counselor to help me with issues that I should have dealt with years ago, that I finally dealt with them.\"<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Michael as she was sharing you were getting pretty emotional here.\u00a0 What are you feeling?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Michael:<\/strong>\u00a0 My mentor friend who I mentioned who is in his 70s is the closest male friend I\u2019ve ever had.\u00a0 In a lot of ways he\u2019s the spiritual father that a lot of men long for and God gave that to me in a man who has had such a remarkable impact.\u00a0 He said in 20 years of counseling I\u2019ve never seen a person change as dramatically as Cindy.\u00a0 And that is true.\u00a0 I got a new wife.\u00a0 My wife was a wonderful person when we got married and in our early years of marriage.\u00a0 But here was a woman who was able to tap in to some things spiritually and emotionally that she had never been allowed to tap into before.<\/p>\n<p>It was funny because we had one of the most incredible arguments we\u2019d ever had had in our marriage yelling and screaming.\u00a0 I\u2019m mad at Cindy like I\u2019ve never been before and she\u2019s laughing at me.\u00a0 And I asked, how can you laugh at me?\u00a0 She says before counseling I didn\u2019t know how.<\/p>\n<p>(laughter)<\/p>\n<p>It was so wonderful to see that she had understood the pain and the joy and it started to unfold.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Cindy, as you were saying that, you've shared in the process of today's broadcast that you're pretty reserved, can be stoic, maybe a little distant from time to time, but I was watching you as you were sharing that, I think I saw a tear.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Cindy:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes.\u00a0 Oh yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 I think I heard some emotion.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Cindy:<\/strong>\u00a0\u00a0 I have to tell you, counseling has made me very emotional.\u00a0 I'm the one now that every praise song ends up weeping in church.\u00a0 And my children are looking up at me going \"What is wrong with you, woman?\" because it did allow me to get in touch with both my pain and my joy in a way that I never felt.\u00a0 I learned that you can't experience joy until you experience pain.\u00a0 You have to see the contradiction or the contrast in the two to get both extremes.\u00a0 And I like both extremes now ... not that I go out and look for pain, but I do go out and look for joy.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Do you hear the process?\u00a0 First the snip, snip, snip of the vine dresser on the vine that is to bear fruit, and now the fruit, people observing in Cindy's life.<\/p>\n<p>I've got to ask you because one of the things that prompted you to go seek counseling was the desire to share those intimate moments in a non-sexual situation.\u00a0 Was there a time, Michael, when you knew that the counseling had been worth it?\u00a0 That she really entered into the joy, the pain of what you were feeling as a man?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Michael:<\/strong>\u00a0 Dennis, I came under an interesting assault in ministry at one juncture, and it was from a professional, personal, emotional experience the worst thing I had ever tasted.\u00a0 My character was being maligned, some accusations were roiling around in the church family, and there was good reason for people to look at us at a distance and wonder \"Is this guy really true, or is there some ... you know, is there something rotten in his life?\"<\/p>\n<p>So I was coming home pretty beat up from some long, interesting church meetings.\u00a0 There was one particular event where I came home and all I could do emotionally was go to bed, get up, shave, shower and go to work.\u00a0 There was ... there was nothing there.\u00a0 It was a flat line emotionally.\u00a0 And during those assaults, to have my wife with me, she was there.\u00a0 She understood me.\u00a0 She believed in me.\u00a0 She knew the allegations and accusations were false.\u00a0 She knew that my character was the same man she married.\u00a0 She trusted me.\u00a0 And to weather that experience with her, it was a remarkable time.<\/p>\n<p>There was a verse in Exodus, I think it's 14:17, that she quoted to me one morning on the way out the door.\u00a0 She said, \"Michael,\" she said, \"God told Moses when he was at the Red Sea and Pharaoh's army was behind him to stand by and see the salvation of your Lord today.\"<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Cindy, as you were watching him go through that, what were you feeling?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Cindy:<\/strong>\u00a0\u00a0 Oh, I feel all the emotions again as if we were there yesterday.\u00a0 And again, it is such a joy to be able to enter into his emotional state, whatever it is, good or bad, and to feel my own.\u00a0 It's not just to enter into his, but it's to feel my own emotions as well.<\/p>\n<p>Every time we tell this story, I talk a little bit about counseling when I speak at the FamilyLife Marriage Conferences and what counseling has done for me.\u00a0 I know again that Michael and I are opposite of most couples, and so if there's any men that I could reach today, I would say please listen to your wives.\u00a0 You have an emotional side to you.\u00a0 Please, if she is begging for your emotional side to come out, do whatever it takes so that you can experience the oneness that Michael and I can experience.\u00a0 You can't experience it without that emotional oneness, without emotional intimacy.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 And there are a lot of men, Bob, who are listening to the broadcast right now who quite frankly can identify with Cindy's fear, their insecurity, not wanting to face the pain, not knowing what it means to have to delve into those issues.\u00a0 We are made in the image of God.\u00a0 A part of that image that he stamped within us is our emotional being.<\/p>\n<p>It's the side that Christians, I think, feel most uncomfortable with because you can't touch it, you can't grasp it, you can't put your arms around it, and yet God is a god of jealousy and anger and love.\u00a0 He is a God of peace.\u00a0 And he wants us to be in full reflection of him.\u00a0 At some point it may mean for a married couple that they need to submit to the counsel of a third party in their marriage, and that can bring peace, wholeness, and goodness to their home.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 We\u2019ve talked to a number of marriage counselors who have said to us that they recommend to a couple before they even get into counseling is that they come out and spend a weekend with us at a FamilyLife\u2019s Weekend to Remember\u00ae marriage conferences.<\/p>\n<p>In fact I talked to one counselor one time who said if a couple will do that often it takes six months off the counseling time that he needs with them.\u00a0 In some cases they don\u2019t need the counseling after all.\u00a0 The weekend gives them the tools they need to patch up the issues that have emerged in their relationship.\u00a0 And really for every married couple to take some time and get away and focus on your marriage that\u2019s good preventive maintenance.<\/p>\n<p>I mentioned that you guys are the Easleys and the Raineys are going to be together not this weekend but next weekend speaking at the FamilyLife Weekend to Remember\u00ae marriage conference that we are hosting in Washington, D.C. at the Gaylord National hotel.\u00a0 We still have room available for those who would like to attend this fun, romantic getaway for couples.\u00a0 In fact that weekend that weekend, Valentine\u2019s weekend, is the kickoff of our spring conference season.<\/p>\n<p>While you guys are going to be in the nation\u2019s capital I\u2019m going to be in the chocolate capital in Hershey, Pennsylvania at the Hershey lodge.\u00a0 We have other conferences that same weekend and in the weeks to come all across the country.\u00a0 We really believe that for a marriage to go the distance from time to time you need to get a tune up done.\u00a0 You need to pull off to the side and let the engine cool off a little bit and let our mechanics take a look under the hood and let us perform the necessary preventive maintenance.<\/p>\n<p>You can find out more when you go to our website FamilyLifeToday.com or call 1-800-FL-TODAY.\u00a0 Our team can help with that.<\/p>\n<p>If you can\u2019t get to a conference this spring but you want to do something that is really good for your marriage get together with four or five other couples and get one of our HomeBuilders Couples Series\u00ae study guide.\u00a0 It\u2019s a curriculum for small groups and it\u2019s all about building your marriage relationship and building your spouse.<\/p>\n<p>Meet together every other week with these other couples and just have a conversation about marriage.\u00a0 We\u2019ve got studies on communication and how to handle pressure in marriage, growing together in Christ, how to resolve conflict and how to work together as a team.\u00a0 We take core issues and deal with them in these HomeBuilders study guides.\u00a0 These are self led and nobody has to be the expert when you get together and work your way through these questions.<\/p>\n<p>I think the point we are trying to make is do something for your marriage.\u00a0 Come to a conference or join a HomeBuilders group whatever it is be intentional.\u00a0 Be purposeful.\u00a0 Be deliberate.<\/p>\n<p>Speaking of things you can do to help your marriage this month if you are able to help with a donation of any amount to help support the ministry of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> we have a CD that we\u2019d love to send you.\u00a0 It features Linda and Jody Dillow.\u00a0 The title of the message is <em>The Four Flames of Marital Intimacy<\/em> and if you\u2019d like to receive the CD when you make your donation online at FamilyLifeToday.com just type the word \u201cFOUR\u201d into the key code box on the online donation form.<\/p>\n<p>Or call 1-800-FL-TODAY and you can make a donation over the phone.\u00a0 When you call just ask for the CD on marital intimacy or the CD with the Dillows.\u00a0 We will be happy to send it out to you again as our way of saying thank you for your support of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p>As we've heard the story today, Dennis, of Michael and Cindy going to counseling, I just ... I want to know from the two of them, you went there with a ... you said it was a C-minus, that would be a little worse than average.\u00a0 I'm guessing it was maybe an average marriage, right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Michael:<\/strong>\u00a0 Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 But you said \"I don't want it to be average.\"\u00a0 So, what's the grade today?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Michael:<\/strong>\u00a0 A-plus, Bob.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 No, is it?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Michael:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yes, it is.\u00a0 I used to hear couples that were married 30 years say, \"Oh, I love my spouse more than the day I married them.\"\u00a0 And I used to say to myself, \"They're lying.\"<\/p>\n<p>[Laughter.]<\/p>\n<p>\"They're lying men.\"\u00a0 And you know, we have almost 20 years now, and God has been so gracious to us.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 Is it an A-plus, Cindy?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Cindy:<\/strong>\u00a0 Oh yes, definitely.\u00a0 Definitely.\u00a0 And every minute was worth it in counseling.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 This isn't just because you're on national radio and everybody is listening and you have to say that?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Cindy:<\/strong>\u00a0 No.\u00a0 Okay, we have our A-minus days.<\/p>\n<p>[Laughter.]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 Yeah, right.\u00a0 You have your B days with all of us.\u00a0 But you know, the real question is, I think, Bob, that's a good health ... kind of a health test question.\u00a0 Would you want your children to experience a relationship like you've had with your spouse?\u00a0 And if you wouldn't want your son or daughter to experience that, then you've got to ask yourself why would you continue to allow yourself to experience that.\u00a0 Do something about it.\u00a0 Go to a FamilyLife Marriage Conference, get some counsel, get into a small group, a Home Builders Bible Study, do something.<\/p>\n<p>And I know, Bob, at this point we're speaking to a group where half of the marital equation wants to have it, the other half is, as Cindy addressed earlier, refusing that, and that's a difficult situation.\u00a0 My encouragement is pray.\u00a0 Ask God to break through.<\/p>\n<p><em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas.<\/p>\n<p>Help for today.\u00a0 Hope for tomorrow.<\/p>\n<p><strong>\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>We are so happy to provide these transcripts for you. However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?<\/p>\n<p>Copyright \u00a9 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.<\/p>\n<p><strong>www.FamilyLife.com<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n","theme_header_position":"Sticky","post_header_is_sticky":"default","is_header_overlay":"0"},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/301974","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/91"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=301974"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/294104"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=301974"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=301974"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=301974"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=301974"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=301974"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=301974"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}