{"id":301836,"date":"2009-06-10T11:00:00","date_gmt":"2009-06-10T15:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/trusting-in-the-truths-of-god\/"},"modified":"2009-06-10T11:00:00","modified_gmt":"2009-06-10T15:00:00","slug":"trusting-in-the-truths-of-god","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/trusting-in-the-truths-of-god\/","title":{"rendered":"Trusting in the Truths of God"},"content":{"rendered":"","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Where is God when we suffer?<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2009-06-10.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:","filesize":"11.97M","filesize_raw":"12551836","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2847],"tags":[4932,2605,2216],"podcast_series":[7652],"cwp_profile":[3406],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-301836","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-death-and-dying","tag-difficulty","tag-sickness","tag-suffering","podcast_series-when-god-breaks-your-heart","cwp_profile-ed-underwood","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/301836\/trusting-in-the-truths-of-god","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/301836\/trusting-in-the-truths-of-god","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"dZsDLvpljD\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/trusting-in-the-truths-of-god\/\">Trusting in the Truths of God<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/trusting-in-the-truths-of-god\/embed\/#?secret=dZsDLvpljD\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Trusting in the Truths of God&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"dZsDLvpljD\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2009-06-10.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2009-06-10.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Am I making all of this up? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Is this really true or is this a fairy tale. And yet, when you pull back and take a look at what the Bible teaches you\u2019ve really got only a couple of choices. You\u2019ve either got a choice of believing that there is a God who sovereignly rules in the affairs of men and women, or that there is no God and it\u2019s all random. And I\u2019m going to tell you, I think the overwhelming evidence of creation and of the scripture, well the scripture teaches us that God is in charge and he does know what befalls us and he loves and cares for us.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>I remember having conversations with my boys as they were going through high school. And we\u2019d talk about existentialist philosophy and different things they were being exposed to in school appropriately. And I remember saying, I think there\u2019s either the truth of the Bible, or else Nietzsche was right, \u201cThere is no god, and life is absurd and you ought to live that way.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> It\u2019s hopeless. And we have a guest with us today who has been at that dark spot you\u2019re talking about, Bob.\u00a0 Ed Underwood joins us on FamilyLife Today. Ed, welcome to the broadcast. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed Underwood:<\/strong> Thank you, it\u2019s great to be here.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Ed is the pastor of a famous church that started in Los Angeles, Church of the Open Door. He is a graduate of my alma mater, as well, Dallas Theological Seminary, he\u2019s been in the U.S. Army, a firefighter for the U.S. Forest Service, and he and his wife Judy live in Southern California. He\u2019s written a book called <em>When God Breaks Your Heart: Choosing hope in the midst of faith shattering circumstances. <\/em>Now some of our listeners are in the midst of faith shattering circumstances right now, and they need to hear your story, Ed. Yours started really, over seven years ago when you were diagnosed with cancer.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed Underwood: <\/strong>Yes I was diagnosed with cancer, chronic lymphoma. And those who have been through this know that you get the diagnosis, a little at a time.\u00a0 And, basically what happens is your doctors are hoping you don\u2019t have it, and you can kinda see that in their face. And they send you to all the other specialists, and found out that I have a chronic leukemia, and it is a vicious one, and it shook my faith.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>What was the tipoff that you had a problem in the first place?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed Underwood: <\/strong>Well, what happened was, I had a knee infection. I have a fake knee, and it got infected and they couldn\u2019t figure out why. They were thinking maybe it was an autoimmune thing, but when I had it put back in, I started rashing. And they could not stop the rash. And I\u2019m not talking about poison oak; I\u2019m talking about my skin being burned from the inside out, and just not staying on me. They could not keep my skin on me. So they take you to all these different things. And finally they found that I have a very rare, they call it an orphan disease, but it is called caesurae(sp) syndrome, and I\u2019m one of the few that have it. And that was the diagnosis, but it took them a long time to get to that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Why do they call it the orphan disease?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed Underwood: <\/strong>They call it an orphan disease if just very few people have it. Which also means it gets very little attention from the medical community so there aren\u2019t very many drugs, and they have to orphan in drugs from other diseases to treat it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob<\/strong>: So, this rash that you were experiencing, how long was it from the time you first started having the rash until they figured out what was going on and could help you? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed Underwood: <\/strong>It was about six weeks for them to diagnose it. And then I went to the cancer center there and it took about two years before the rash finally got to a controllable state.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> So were you in chronic progressive pain throughout this whole time?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed Underwood:<\/strong> Yeah, I really was.\u00a0 And I had never been through it before. You know I hurt myself jumping out of airplanes and all of the things that I\u2019d done in the Army, or in the Forest Service, but I had just never had to deal with chronic pain. And my family has never had to deal with that whole\u2026 Suddenly you\u2019re an expert on T cells now, because I have a T cell lymphoma, so that\u2019s our life, totally changed because of this disease.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And the symptoms of this are really pretty tough. You literally itch you have a desire to scratch your skin, and yet your skin is coming off.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed Underwood:<\/strong> It\u2019s coming off, your skin is like jelly, and it\u2019s interesting that the number one cause of death with this disease is suicide. Because it is just itching\u2014if you\u2019ve ever had a rash that itches you can\u2019t get away from it. And body fluids seep. I\u2019ve ruined two couches I\u2019ve had two real bad episodes of this.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Over what percent of your body would you have this rash? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed Underwood: <\/strong>One Hundred.100% of your body.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Now Ed, you were trained at Dallas Seminary \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed Underwood:<\/strong> I was.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>I mean, you had a four year degree, which is incredibly thorough.\u00a0 You know Hebrew, Greek, you\u2019ve heard from some of the leading Bible scholars in the world.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed Underwood: <\/strong>I\u2019ve been privileged as you know.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>How did you counsel your own soul? Because we do counsel our own soul theologically.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed Underwood: <\/strong>We do. And what I would say is: the text. I\u2019ve gotta tell you, I love the text.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>The Bible\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed Underwood: <\/strong>There was the night that I told Judy that I wasn\u2019t going to pray any more. This was before I was diagnosed.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Before you were diagnosed? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed Underwood:<\/strong> Before I was diagnosed, just when I was suffering.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 So, you\u2019re having the rash and they don\u2019t know what the problem is.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed Underwood:<\/strong> I was having the rash. I was weak. They had saved my life but it just would not quit. And our daughter had come down with her kids and the grandkids are there, and my life is so different I can\u2019t even talk to the grandkids. The grandkids wouldn\u2019t come to me because this is a disfiguring disease. They were afraid of me. And I went upstairs and Judy said, \u201cWell honey, let\u2019s pray.\u201d I said \u201cI\u2019m through praying. I\u2019m through praying, there\u2019s no way that I could be God\u2019s child. I\u2019m a father.\u00a0 And, I know a father\u2019s heart. And I would not let this happen to my child.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tShe didn\u2019t argue with me. She just said, \u201cyou can\u2019t do this.\u201d And then her prayer was, \u201cI\u2019m going to pray that God would bring you back. To him, and to me.\u201d And it was the text that brought me back.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Were you really, I mean in your heart were you thinking that all that you had thought and believed about God had to just be bogus?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed Underwood:<\/strong> I didn\u2019t want to. Because I\u2019ve had so much\u2014I\u2019m a Jesus Movement guy. I came out of a pagan home. Since I trusted in Christ, my relationship with him has defined my life. Judy and I met that way. I just couldn\u2019t understand; how could he let this happen? It just broke my heart.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>And was there anger also in your heart?<br>\u00a0\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed Underwood:<\/strong> Oh, yes. There was anger in my heart. You hate to admit it and you heard people say all these things through the years. \u201cI\u2019m angry at God, I don\u2019t think he still loves me\u2026\u201d And in the back of my mind was always, \u201cYeah but I won\u2019t do that. Because I\u2019m really, really committed to Christ. I can understand how this would happen to other people.\u201d But I\u2019m telling you, that night, I had decided that it wasn\u2019t worth it to pray.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>And you know, if you haven\u2019t ever been there, in that situation, you really can\u2019t guarantee how your own soul will respond in a situation like this. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed Underwood:<\/strong> You really can\u2019t.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Barbara\u2019s nearly died on four different occasions from a rapid heart rate.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed Underwood: <\/strong>Wow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>I\u2019ve seen a teenaged young man, our son, stricken with a disease that took away his ability to run.\u00a0 And he was an athlete. And he was not a scholar, but it tossed him upside-down as a teenager for the last four or five years of his adolescence. I\u2019ve been a part of burying a granddaughter.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed Underwood: <\/strong>Mighty Molly, I read the story.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Mighty Molly seven days old. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed Underwood: <\/strong>\u00a0Boy did I identify with that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>And Ed, if you haven\u2019t been at those moments, there are dark moments in our lives, when we do question. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed Underwood: <\/strong>Exactly.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>We question God\u2019s judgment, God\u2019s love, and even, as Bob said, God\u2019s existence. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed Underwood: <\/strong>Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>You were right there.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed Underwood: <\/strong>Oh, I was right there, I was all the way there. I was all the way there. In fact I dedicated the book to Judy. \u2018Cause I say very honestly, without her faith, I would have lost mine. Without her prayers, I would have died.\u00a0 And I believe that. Because, having watched people I love suffer, it\u2019s harder to watch the one you love suffer than it is to suffer yourself. And she just has such a great faith. But I was right there I just remember thinking, I should have stayed in the Army, I\u2019d be a colonel, I\u2019d have better insurance and if there is no God, I\u2019d be way better off. My life would have counted for a lot more.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Ed, you\u2019ve\u2014we\u2019ve been talking here for a dozen minutes and you\u2019ve gone into the description of the disease, the pain you were experiencing. But it was only as you began to talk about the faith of your wife and the hope and encouragement that she gave you that you began to become emotional.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed Underwood:<\/strong> She\u2019s my bride. You know, we met Jesus\u2014We kinda met Jesus together. Neither one of us came from a Christian home. We married way too young. Everybody told us not to. We raised each other. And we have made a lot of mistakes that kids who come from pagan homes make; the mistakes of excess. But Jesus has been our only hope, and I lost it that night. And it was my Judy who kept me there.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Was anybody else aware of this crisis of faith that was going on? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed Underwood:<\/strong> A couple of my closest, closest friends. And as transparent and as vulnerable as I maintained myself, I knew intuitively that I\u2019d better not be sharing this with a lot of people. So, I\u2019m sure my kids knew. It was all a fog, I forget what was going on around me at that time. I\u2019m living from test to test. I\u2019m putting on all these medications trying to keep my skin on in the middle of all of this. But there were just three or four people besides Judy that I let in.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Were you still preaching at the time?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed Underwood: <\/strong>Oh, no; which was another reason I couldn\u2019t understand why God did this. I really didn\u2019t think Church of the Open Door would survive my death. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>You know, we started this broadcast by talking about, there perhaps were people listening who are in a faith shattering crisis. There are also maybe those who are listening who are married to someone who\u2019s in it. And, what Judy models here is the importance our words, our faithfulness and our love have for someone who loses hope.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0<strong>Ed Underwood: <\/strong>Exactly.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>And, you know, it can be a teenager who\u2019s losing hope, it can be our spouse that\u2019s losing hope, it can be our parents, as they age who lose hope. We really are important in one another\u2019s lives to continue to just stay the course.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed Underwood: <\/strong>Intensely so. Intensely so.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Unpack that a little bit for us. What is it that Judy did or didn\u2019t do that was right during that time?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed Underwood: <\/strong>She didn\u2019t argue with me and correct me and preach at me. She loved me, she stayed up at night reading the Psalms, and I told her I didn\u2019t want to hear them. She said, \u201cWell, I\u2019m going to read them anyway. I\u2019m reading them for me.\u201d I can still remember falling asleep and her reading our favorite Psalms. And then, when I told her I lost my faith, she just looked at me. She was crying, she said, \u201cYou can\u2019t do this. He\u2019s everything to us. I\u2019m going to pray that God would bring you back to him and me.\u201d And I think that when I found John 11 the next day, it was God\u2019s answer to her prayer.\u00a0 Because it was that text that gave me hope.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>I\u2019m surprised you even went looking back in the Bible. I mean, given where you were emotionally, I\u2019m surprised you even picked up a Bible.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed Underwood: <\/strong>I think it\u2019s what Dennis was just saying. I think there was something about Judy\u2019s unshakable faith. And you gotta realize, I\u2019ve got some friends, who still believed for me. And they were saying the kind of things that I needed to hear. Sometimes, they were a lot more frontal with me, than Judy was.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>So they were saying hard things to you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed Underwood: <\/strong>They were saying hard things to me, but not shaming things. There\u2019s a difference between a hard thing and a shaming thing. Grace is a safe place it\u2019s not a soft place. So, I felt safe with them.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Give us an illustration of something they might say to you, in the midst of that that feels safe, yet is still an exhortation to step up and out of your despair.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed Underwood: <\/strong>This is after I started back on my way back toward God, and I was kind of tracking again, but I still had, we called them \u201cthe greased pig exercise\u201d where, we get to the point\u2014since your skin regulates your body heat. We\u2019d get to the point where I would just be shaking, like you see people from a burn.\u00a0 And then I would have to go upstairs, take off all my clothes and rub this Eucerin paste all over my body.\u00a0 And that, of course would make me burn up, and so I would have to sit in front of a fan until my body finally regulated. I had to do that about every three hours. And it was just miserable, and I would moan and wail, and so I wrote to Bruce. And I said, \u201cHave you got anything that will help me through this?\u201d And he said, \u201cYou need a discipline of praise,\u201d Is what he told me, \u201cYou need a discipline of praise.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br>And I wrote him back, this is Bruce Wilkinson. I said, \u201cEasy for you to say Mr. \u2018Jabez\u2019 man.\u201d And he said, \u201cEd, I\u2019m telling you, you need a discipline of praise. I\u2019m not going to back off on this.\u201d And he said, \u201cI want you\u2014just try it next time.\u201d And he gave me this discipline of praise: Five verses that mean the most to you in life, five ways that God has worked in your life and about twenty things. And I just had to discipline myself to praise God. And, it pulled me through. In fact, I would say, I never want to do the greased pig thing again, but I miss those times, some of the most intimate times I\u2019ve ever had. And if Bruce would have backed off and said, \u201cOK, I\u2019m sorry Ed, I don\u2019t understand.\u201d\u00a0 I never would have probably done that, and I would have missed that blessing of the Holy Spirit to draw me closer to God than I can remember being, during those times that I was so, so much in pain.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> So safe words speak the truth.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed Underwood:<\/strong> They speak the truth in ways that the relationship comes through too. And they\u2019re words that don\u2019t protect God.\u00a0 They\u2019re words that connect to God. That\u2019s the way I would put it. The words that protect God for the sufferer just do you no good. People who are so worried that they gotta take care of God. So when you say \u201cI\u2019m losing my faith.\u201d They start giving you all of these verses about how good God is and all that. You need verses, and you need truth that connects you to God. God doesn\u2019t need protection, he\u2019s God. If God was going to protect himself, he\u2019s risking it. He\u2019s risking suffering and all the questions that we\u2019re asking for the sake of being able to reach us with his redemptive plan. So, they would be words that don\u2019t protect God. Words that connect people to God. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You know, you mentioned John 11. And this week we\u2019re going to unpack that a little bit as we continue to hear more of the process that you went through in this. But, as I think, this has been helpful for any of us. Whether we\u2019re in the position of doubting, questioning, wondering about, is there a God, or whether we\u2019re coming alongside someone who\u2019s in that position to know how we can love them, support them, encourage them, exhort them, how we can be safe without being soft, and help steer them back in the right direction.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Bob, I think in the Christian faith, sometimes we become, well we lack authenticity. And in our efforts maybe to protect God like Ed was talking about, or somehow wanting to appear spiritual, or really try to offer someone spiritual help, we don\u2019t allow faith to have the dark underbelly of doubt, and of disbelief.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed Underwood:<\/strong> That\u2019s right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 And honestly, if you look at the disciples\u2019 lives, they experienced both. They had great faith, and they had disbelief. And as we\u2019re talking about here, I\u2019m just reminded of a great quote that I\u2019ve shared on this broadcast numerous times. But I want to mention it right now, because there may be a listener who needs to hear this quote by Tom Skinner, who was chaplain of the Washington Redskins. He said this, \u201cI spent a long time trying to come to grips with my doubts, when suddenly I realized, I had better come to grips with what I believe. I have since moved from the agony of questions that I can\u2019t answer, to the reality of answers that I cannot escape. And it\u2019s a great relief.\u201d\u00a0 And, as I hear your story Ed, it wasn\u2019t that you denied the existence of your doubts, you ultimately moved toward those things you knew to be true. And that were worthy of faith.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed Underwood:<\/strong> Wow. Dennis, I\u2019ve never heard that quote before. But as you were speaking the words I remember thinking, that\u2019s exactly what happened\u2014what happened to me. It wasn\u2019t what I didn\u2019t know about Jesus that brought me back, it is what I knew about Jesus that brought me back. And the stuff that I know about him, makes him absolutely worthy of my trust. And the things I learned about him through this makes me want to follow him even more. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And you\u2019ve captured that really well in the book that you\u2019ve written that describes this whole experience. It\u2019s called <em>When God Breaks Your Heart: Choosing hope in the midst of faith shattering circumstances<\/em>. And I think people wrestle all the time with where is God in the midst of suffering, and how do we understand a good God when there is so much suffering? And through your own experience and looking at the account of the death of Lazarus in John, chapter 11, you\u2019ve given us insight into the reality of God and what he\u2019s up to, and how we\u2019re to understand it when we walk through these kinds of difficult, tragic circumstances. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe\u2019ve got copies of the book <em>When God Breaks Your Heart<\/em> in our FamilyLife resource center, and I want to encourage our listeners, go to our website FamilyLifeToday.com, information about Ed\u2019s book is available there. Again it\u2019s called: <em>When God Breaks Your Heart, <\/em>and the website is FamilyLifeToday.com. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe also have information on our website about the brand new book that, Dennis, you\u2019re wife Barbara, and your daughter Rebecca have written that is called <em>A Symphony in the Dark <\/em>\u00a0that tells the story of the birth and life and death of Rebecca\u2019s baby daughter Molly who died a year ago next week. In fact next week we\u2019re going to be spending some time looking at Molly\u2019s life here on FamilyLife Today. And the book is just out and I want to encourage our listeners to get a copy of this new book as well. It is powerful. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThere\u2019s information on both books our website FamilyLifeToday.com You can order from us online, or you can call us toll free at 1- 800-FL Today. 1-800 358-6329. That\u2019s 1-800 F as in \u201cfamily\u201d L as in \u201clife\u201d and then the word TODAY.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tLet me just quickly mention, there is also on our website a short clip\u2014a preview of what we\u2019re going to be listening to next week as we hear Molly\u2019s story. So if listeners would like a chance to preview what\u2019s going to be on the air next week, go to FamilyLifeToday.com. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou know as we are unpacking Ed\u2019s story this week on FamilyLife Today, I was thinking about a message that you shared with our staff, Dennis, a while back. A message from Psalm 34 where you talked about finding encouragement and hope and help in the middle of trial and tribulations. It\u2019s a great message and one that a lot of our staff asked for copies of so they could send it out to friends and folks that they knew who were walking a very difficult path. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThis month we want to make that CD available to any of our listeners who will help support the ministry of FamilyLife Today with a donation of any amount.\u00a0 When you call to make your donation, or when you go online at FamilyLifeToday.com, and make a donation, you can request a copy of the CD message from Dennis Rainey, \u201cTrials and Tribulations: Encouragement, Hope and Help found in Psalm 34. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tLet me just say quickly a word of thanks to those of you who are able to make a donation this month. We appreciate your financial support. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe\u2019ve faced some difficult decisions here at the ministry in the past several months. We\u2019ve had to make some adjustments because of a decline in donations. We\u2019ve had to release some staff and make other adjustments as well. So we appreciate those of you who can make a donation of any amount this month. And when you do, feel free to request a copy of this CD.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf you\u2019re making you donation online, at FamilyLifeToday.com, just type the word \u201c<u>trials<\/u>\u201d in the keycode box on your donation form online. Or call toll free, 1-800-FL Today, make your donation over the phone, and just ask for a copy of the CD from Dennis. Again it\u2019s our gift to you this month, and our way of saying thank you for standing with us, and for your financial support of this ministry.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTomorrow we\u2019re going to hear from Ed Underwood about the lesson he learned on prayer, as he lay dying. And I hope you can be back with us for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch and the entire broadcast production team. On behalf of out host, Dennis Rainey I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We\u2019ll see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tFamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts for you. However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright \u00a9 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>www.FamilyLife.com<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>"],"_seopress_titles_title":[""],"_seopress_titles_desc":[""],"_seopress_robots_index":[""],"duration":["00:"],"show_notes":[""],"_thumbnail_id":["294104"],"filesize":["11.97M"],"filesize_raw":["12551836"],"_uag_css_file_name":["uag-css-301836.css"],"_uag_js_file_name":["uag-js-301836.js"],"_uag_page_assets":["a:9:{s:3:\"css\";s:82560:\".wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-top svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-top .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-bottom svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-bottom .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f 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is God when we suffer?","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2009-06-10.pdf","transcript_content":"<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Am I making all of this up? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Is this really true or is this a fairy tale. And yet, when you pull back and take a look at what the Bible teaches you\u2019ve really got only a couple of choices. You\u2019ve either got a choice of believing that there is a God who sovereignly rules in the affairs of men and women, or that there is no God and it\u2019s all random. And I\u2019m going to tell you, I think the overwhelming evidence of creation and of the scripture, well the scripture teaches us that God is in charge and he does know what befalls us and he loves and cares for us.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>I remember having conversations with my boys as they were going through high school. And we\u2019d talk about existentialist philosophy and different things they were being exposed to in school appropriately. And I remember saying, I think there\u2019s either the truth of the Bible, or else Nietzsche was right, \u201cThere is no god, and life is absurd and you ought to live that way.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> It\u2019s hopeless. And we have a guest with us today who has been at that dark spot you\u2019re talking about, Bob.\u00a0 Ed Underwood joins us on FamilyLife Today. Ed, welcome to the broadcast. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed Underwood:<\/strong> Thank you, it\u2019s great to be here.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Ed is the pastor of a famous church that started in Los Angeles, Church of the Open Door. He is a graduate of my alma mater, as well, Dallas Theological Seminary, he\u2019s been in the U.S. Army, a firefighter for the U.S. Forest Service, and he and his wife Judy live in Southern California. He\u2019s written a book called <em>When God Breaks Your Heart: Choosing hope in the midst of faith shattering circumstances. <\/em>Now some of our listeners are in the midst of faith shattering circumstances right now, and they need to hear your story, Ed. Yours started really, over seven years ago when you were diagnosed with cancer.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed Underwood: <\/strong>Yes I was diagnosed with cancer, chronic lymphoma. And those who have been through this know that you get the diagnosis, a little at a time.\u00a0 And, basically what happens is your doctors are hoping you don\u2019t have it, and you can kinda see that in their face. And they send you to all the other specialists, and found out that I have a chronic leukemia, and it is a vicious one, and it shook my faith.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>What was the tipoff that you had a problem in the first place?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed Underwood: <\/strong>Well, what happened was, I had a knee infection. I have a fake knee, and it got infected and they couldn\u2019t figure out why. They were thinking maybe it was an autoimmune thing, but when I had it put back in, I started rashing. And they could not stop the rash. And I\u2019m not talking about poison oak; I\u2019m talking about my skin being burned from the inside out, and just not staying on me. They could not keep my skin on me. So they take you to all these different things. And finally they found that I have a very rare, they call it an orphan disease, but it is called caesurae(sp) syndrome, and I\u2019m one of the few that have it. And that was the diagnosis, but it took them a long time to get to that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Why do they call it the orphan disease?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed Underwood: <\/strong>They call it an orphan disease if just very few people have it. Which also means it gets very little attention from the medical community so there aren\u2019t very many drugs, and they have to orphan in drugs from other diseases to treat it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob<\/strong>: So, this rash that you were experiencing, how long was it from the time you first started having the rash until they figured out what was going on and could help you? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed Underwood: <\/strong>It was about six weeks for them to diagnose it. And then I went to the cancer center there and it took about two years before the rash finally got to a controllable state.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> So were you in chronic progressive pain throughout this whole time?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed Underwood:<\/strong> Yeah, I really was.\u00a0 And I had never been through it before. You know I hurt myself jumping out of airplanes and all of the things that I\u2019d done in the Army, or in the Forest Service, but I had just never had to deal with chronic pain. And my family has never had to deal with that whole\u2026 Suddenly you\u2019re an expert on T cells now, because I have a T cell lymphoma, so that\u2019s our life, totally changed because of this disease.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And the symptoms of this are really pretty tough. You literally itch you have a desire to scratch your skin, and yet your skin is coming off.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed Underwood:<\/strong> It\u2019s coming off, your skin is like jelly, and it\u2019s interesting that the number one cause of death with this disease is suicide. Because it is just itching\u2014if you\u2019ve ever had a rash that itches you can\u2019t get away from it. And body fluids seep. I\u2019ve ruined two couches I\u2019ve had two real bad episodes of this.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Over what percent of your body would you have this rash? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed Underwood: <\/strong>One Hundred.100% of your body.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Now Ed, you were trained at Dallas Seminary \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed Underwood:<\/strong> I was.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>I mean, you had a four year degree, which is incredibly thorough.\u00a0 You know Hebrew, Greek, you\u2019ve heard from some of the leading Bible scholars in the world.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed Underwood: <\/strong>I\u2019ve been privileged as you know.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>How did you counsel your own soul? Because we do counsel our own soul theologically.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed Underwood: <\/strong>We do. And what I would say is: the text. I\u2019ve gotta tell you, I love the text.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>The Bible\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed Underwood: <\/strong>There was the night that I told Judy that I wasn\u2019t going to pray any more. This was before I was diagnosed.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Before you were diagnosed? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed Underwood:<\/strong> Before I was diagnosed, just when I was suffering.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong>\u00a0 So, you\u2019re having the rash and they don\u2019t know what the problem is.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed Underwood:<\/strong> I was having the rash. I was weak. They had saved my life but it just would not quit. And our daughter had come down with her kids and the grandkids are there, and my life is so different I can\u2019t even talk to the grandkids. The grandkids wouldn\u2019t come to me because this is a disfiguring disease. They were afraid of me. And I went upstairs and Judy said, \u201cWell honey, let\u2019s pray.\u201d I said \u201cI\u2019m through praying. I\u2019m through praying, there\u2019s no way that I could be God\u2019s child. I\u2019m a father.\u00a0 And, I know a father\u2019s heart. And I would not let this happen to my child.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tShe didn\u2019t argue with me. She just said, \u201cyou can\u2019t do this.\u201d And then her prayer was, \u201cI\u2019m going to pray that God would bring you back. To him, and to me.\u201d And it was the text that brought me back.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Were you really, I mean in your heart were you thinking that all that you had thought and believed about God had to just be bogus?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed Underwood:<\/strong> I didn\u2019t want to. Because I\u2019ve had so much\u2014I\u2019m a Jesus Movement guy. I came out of a pagan home. Since I trusted in Christ, my relationship with him has defined my life. Judy and I met that way. I just couldn\u2019t understand; how could he let this happen? It just broke my heart.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>And was there anger also in your heart?<br>\u00a0\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed Underwood:<\/strong> Oh, yes. There was anger in my heart. You hate to admit it and you heard people say all these things through the years. \u201cI\u2019m angry at God, I don\u2019t think he still loves me\u2026\u201d And in the back of my mind was always, \u201cYeah but I won\u2019t do that. Because I\u2019m really, really committed to Christ. I can understand how this would happen to other people.\u201d But I\u2019m telling you, that night, I had decided that it wasn\u2019t worth it to pray.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>And you know, if you haven\u2019t ever been there, in that situation, you really can\u2019t guarantee how your own soul will respond in a situation like this. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed Underwood:<\/strong> You really can\u2019t.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0 <\/strong>Barbara\u2019s nearly died on four different occasions from a rapid heart rate.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed Underwood: <\/strong>Wow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>I\u2019ve seen a teenaged young man, our son, stricken with a disease that took away his ability to run.\u00a0 And he was an athlete. And he was not a scholar, but it tossed him upside-down as a teenager for the last four or five years of his adolescence. I\u2019ve been a part of burying a granddaughter.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed Underwood: <\/strong>Mighty Molly, I read the story.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Mighty Molly seven days old. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed Underwood: <\/strong>\u00a0Boy did I identify with that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>And Ed, if you haven\u2019t been at those moments, there are dark moments in our lives, when we do question. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed Underwood: <\/strong>Exactly.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>We question God\u2019s judgment, God\u2019s love, and even, as Bob said, God\u2019s existence. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed Underwood: <\/strong>Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>You were right there.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed Underwood: <\/strong>Oh, I was right there, I was all the way there. I was all the way there. In fact I dedicated the book to Judy. \u2018Cause I say very honestly, without her faith, I would have lost mine. Without her prayers, I would have died.\u00a0 And I believe that. Because, having watched people I love suffer, it\u2019s harder to watch the one you love suffer than it is to suffer yourself. And she just has such a great faith. But I was right there I just remember thinking, I should have stayed in the Army, I\u2019d be a colonel, I\u2019d have better insurance and if there is no God, I\u2019d be way better off. My life would have counted for a lot more.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Ed, you\u2019ve\u2014we\u2019ve been talking here for a dozen minutes and you\u2019ve gone into the description of the disease, the pain you were experiencing. But it was only as you began to talk about the faith of your wife and the hope and encouragement that she gave you that you began to become emotional.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed Underwood:<\/strong> She\u2019s my bride. You know, we met Jesus\u2014We kinda met Jesus together. Neither one of us came from a Christian home. We married way too young. Everybody told us not to. We raised each other. And we have made a lot of mistakes that kids who come from pagan homes make; the mistakes of excess. But Jesus has been our only hope, and I lost it that night. And it was my Judy who kept me there.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Was anybody else aware of this crisis of faith that was going on? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed Underwood:<\/strong> A couple of my closest, closest friends. And as transparent and as vulnerable as I maintained myself, I knew intuitively that I\u2019d better not be sharing this with a lot of people. So, I\u2019m sure my kids knew. It was all a fog, I forget what was going on around me at that time. I\u2019m living from test to test. I\u2019m putting on all these medications trying to keep my skin on in the middle of all of this. But there were just three or four people besides Judy that I let in.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Were you still preaching at the time?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed Underwood: <\/strong>Oh, no; which was another reason I couldn\u2019t understand why God did this. I really didn\u2019t think Church of the Open Door would survive my death. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>You know, we started this broadcast by talking about, there perhaps were people listening who are in a faith shattering crisis. There are also maybe those who are listening who are married to someone who\u2019s in it. And, what Judy models here is the importance our words, our faithfulness and our love have for someone who loses hope.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0<strong>Ed Underwood: <\/strong>Exactly.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>And, you know, it can be a teenager who\u2019s losing hope, it can be our spouse that\u2019s losing hope, it can be our parents, as they age who lose hope. We really are important in one another\u2019s lives to continue to just stay the course.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed Underwood: <\/strong>Intensely so. Intensely so.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Unpack that a little bit for us. What is it that Judy did or didn\u2019t do that was right during that time?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed Underwood: <\/strong>She didn\u2019t argue with me and correct me and preach at me. She loved me, she stayed up at night reading the Psalms, and I told her I didn\u2019t want to hear them. She said, \u201cWell, I\u2019m going to read them anyway. I\u2019m reading them for me.\u201d I can still remember falling asleep and her reading our favorite Psalms. And then, when I told her I lost my faith, she just looked at me. She was crying, she said, \u201cYou can\u2019t do this. He\u2019s everything to us. I\u2019m going to pray that God would bring you back to him and me.\u201d And I think that when I found John 11 the next day, it was God\u2019s answer to her prayer.\u00a0 Because it was that text that gave me hope.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>I\u2019m surprised you even went looking back in the Bible. I mean, given where you were emotionally, I\u2019m surprised you even picked up a Bible.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed Underwood: <\/strong>I think it\u2019s what Dennis was just saying. I think there was something about Judy\u2019s unshakable faith. And you gotta realize, I\u2019ve got some friends, who still believed for me. And they were saying the kind of things that I needed to hear. Sometimes, they were a lot more frontal with me, than Judy was.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob: <\/strong>So they were saying hard things to you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed Underwood: <\/strong>They were saying hard things to me, but not shaming things. There\u2019s a difference between a hard thing and a shaming thing. Grace is a safe place it\u2019s not a soft place. So, I felt safe with them.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Give us an illustration of something they might say to you, in the midst of that that feels safe, yet is still an exhortation to step up and out of your despair.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed Underwood: <\/strong>This is after I started back on my way back toward God, and I was kind of tracking again, but I still had, we called them \u201cthe greased pig exercise\u201d where, we get to the point\u2014since your skin regulates your body heat. We\u2019d get to the point where I would just be shaking, like you see people from a burn.\u00a0 And then I would have to go upstairs, take off all my clothes and rub this Eucerin paste all over my body.\u00a0 And that, of course would make me burn up, and so I would have to sit in front of a fan until my body finally regulated. I had to do that about every three hours. And it was just miserable, and I would moan and wail, and so I wrote to Bruce. And I said, \u201cHave you got anything that will help me through this?\u201d And he said, \u201cYou need a discipline of praise,\u201d Is what he told me, \u201cYou need a discipline of praise.\u201d\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br>And I wrote him back, this is Bruce Wilkinson. I said, \u201cEasy for you to say Mr. \u2018Jabez\u2019 man.\u201d And he said, \u201cEd, I\u2019m telling you, you need a discipline of praise. I\u2019m not going to back off on this.\u201d And he said, \u201cI want you\u2014just try it next time.\u201d And he gave me this discipline of praise: Five verses that mean the most to you in life, five ways that God has worked in your life and about twenty things. And I just had to discipline myself to praise God. And, it pulled me through. In fact, I would say, I never want to do the greased pig thing again, but I miss those times, some of the most intimate times I\u2019ve ever had. And if Bruce would have backed off and said, \u201cOK, I\u2019m sorry Ed, I don\u2019t understand.\u201d\u00a0 I never would have probably done that, and I would have missed that blessing of the Holy Spirit to draw me closer to God than I can remember being, during those times that I was so, so much in pain.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> So safe words speak the truth.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed Underwood:<\/strong> They speak the truth in ways that the relationship comes through too. And they\u2019re words that don\u2019t protect God.\u00a0 They\u2019re words that connect to God. That\u2019s the way I would put it. The words that protect God for the sufferer just do you no good. People who are so worried that they gotta take care of God. So when you say \u201cI\u2019m losing my faith.\u201d They start giving you all of these verses about how good God is and all that. You need verses, and you need truth that connects you to God. God doesn\u2019t need protection, he\u2019s God. If God was going to protect himself, he\u2019s risking it. He\u2019s risking suffering and all the questions that we\u2019re asking for the sake of being able to reach us with his redemptive plan. So, they would be words that don\u2019t protect God. Words that connect people to God. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You know, you mentioned John 11. And this week we\u2019re going to unpack that a little bit as we continue to hear more of the process that you went through in this. But, as I think, this has been helpful for any of us. Whether we\u2019re in the position of doubting, questioning, wondering about, is there a God, or whether we\u2019re coming alongside someone who\u2019s in that position to know how we can love them, support them, encourage them, exhort them, how we can be safe without being soft, and help steer them back in the right direction.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Bob, I think in the Christian faith, sometimes we become, well we lack authenticity. And in our efforts maybe to protect God like Ed was talking about, or somehow wanting to appear spiritual, or really try to offer someone spiritual help, we don\u2019t allow faith to have the dark underbelly of doubt, and of disbelief.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed Underwood:<\/strong> That\u2019s right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong>\u00a0 And honestly, if you look at the disciples\u2019 lives, they experienced both. They had great faith, and they had disbelief. And as we\u2019re talking about here, I\u2019m just reminded of a great quote that I\u2019ve shared on this broadcast numerous times. But I want to mention it right now, because there may be a listener who needs to hear this quote by Tom Skinner, who was chaplain of the Washington Redskins. He said this, \u201cI spent a long time trying to come to grips with my doubts, when suddenly I realized, I had better come to grips with what I believe. I have since moved from the agony of questions that I can\u2019t answer, to the reality of answers that I cannot escape. And it\u2019s a great relief.\u201d\u00a0 And, as I hear your story Ed, it wasn\u2019t that you denied the existence of your doubts, you ultimately moved toward those things you knew to be true. And that were worthy of faith.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Ed Underwood:<\/strong> Wow. Dennis, I\u2019ve never heard that quote before. But as you were speaking the words I remember thinking, that\u2019s exactly what happened\u2014what happened to me. It wasn\u2019t what I didn\u2019t know about Jesus that brought me back, it is what I knew about Jesus that brought me back. And the stuff that I know about him, makes him absolutely worthy of my trust. And the things I learned about him through this makes me want to follow him even more. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And you\u2019ve captured that really well in the book that you\u2019ve written that describes this whole experience. It\u2019s called <em>When God Breaks Your Heart: Choosing hope in the midst of faith shattering circumstances<\/em>. And I think people wrestle all the time with where is God in the midst of suffering, and how do we understand a good God when there is so much suffering? And through your own experience and looking at the account of the death of Lazarus in John, chapter 11, you\u2019ve given us insight into the reality of God and what he\u2019s up to, and how we\u2019re to understand it when we walk through these kinds of difficult, tragic circumstances. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe\u2019ve got copies of the book <em>When God Breaks Your Heart<\/em> in our FamilyLife resource center, and I want to encourage our listeners, go to our website FamilyLifeToday.com, information about Ed\u2019s book is available there. Again it\u2019s called: <em>When God Breaks Your Heart, <\/em>and the website is FamilyLifeToday.com. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe also have information on our website about the brand new book that, Dennis, you\u2019re wife Barbara, and your daughter Rebecca have written that is called <em>A Symphony in the Dark <\/em>\u00a0that tells the story of the birth and life and death of Rebecca\u2019s baby daughter Molly who died a year ago next week. In fact next week we\u2019re going to be spending some time looking at Molly\u2019s life here on FamilyLife Today. And the book is just out and I want to encourage our listeners to get a copy of this new book as well. It is powerful. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThere\u2019s information on both books our website FamilyLifeToday.com You can order from us online, or you can call us toll free at 1- 800-FL Today. 1-800 358-6329. That\u2019s 1-800 F as in \u201cfamily\u201d L as in \u201clife\u201d and then the word TODAY.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tLet me just quickly mention, there is also on our website a short clip\u2014a preview of what we\u2019re going to be listening to next week as we hear Molly\u2019s story. So if listeners would like a chance to preview what\u2019s going to be on the air next week, go to FamilyLifeToday.com. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou know as we are unpacking Ed\u2019s story this week on FamilyLife Today, I was thinking about a message that you shared with our staff, Dennis, a while back. A message from Psalm 34 where you talked about finding encouragement and hope and help in the middle of trial and tribulations. It\u2019s a great message and one that a lot of our staff asked for copies of so they could send it out to friends and folks that they knew who were walking a very difficult path. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThis month we want to make that CD available to any of our listeners who will help support the ministry of FamilyLife Today with a donation of any amount.\u00a0 When you call to make your donation, or when you go online at FamilyLifeToday.com, and make a donation, you can request a copy of the CD message from Dennis Rainey, \u201cTrials and Tribulations: Encouragement, Hope and Help found in Psalm 34. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tLet me just say quickly a word of thanks to those of you who are able to make a donation this month. We appreciate your financial support. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe\u2019ve faced some difficult decisions here at the ministry in the past several months. We\u2019ve had to make some adjustments because of a decline in donations. We\u2019ve had to release some staff and make other adjustments as well. So we appreciate those of you who can make a donation of any amount this month. And when you do, feel free to request a copy of this CD.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf you\u2019re making you donation online, at FamilyLifeToday.com, just type the word \u201c<u>trials<\/u>\u201d in the keycode box on your donation form online. Or call toll free, 1-800-FL Today, make your donation over the phone, and just ask for a copy of the CD from Dennis. Again it\u2019s our gift to you this month, and our way of saying thank you for standing with us, and for your financial support of this ministry.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTomorrow we\u2019re going to hear from Ed Underwood about the lesson he learned on prayer, as he lay dying. And I hope you can be back with us for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch and the entire broadcast production team. On behalf of out host, Dennis Rainey I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We\u2019ll see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tFamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts for you. However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright \u00a9 FamilyLife. 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