{"id":301738,"date":"2009-01-01T12:00:00","date_gmt":"2009-01-01T17:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/coming-to-grips-with-grace\/"},"modified":"2009-01-01T12:00:00","modified_gmt":"2009-01-01T17:00:00","slug":"coming-to-grips-with-grace","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/coming-to-grips-with-grace\/","title":{"rendered":"Coming to Grips With Grace"},"content":{"rendered":"","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Unabashed loyalty to Richard Nixon landed former White House aide Chuck Colson in prison.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2009-01-01.mp3","podmotor_file_id":"","podmotor_episode_id":"","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:","filesize":"11.09M","filesize_raw":"11624470","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2822],"tags":[4846,4299,4634],"podcast_series":[7398],"cwp_profile":[8965],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-301738","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-growing-in-your-faith","tag-chuck-colson","tag-faith","tag-grace","podcast_series-the-good-life-with-chuck-colson","cwp_profile-chuck-colson","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/301738\/coming-to-grips-with-grace","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/301738\/coming-to-grips-with-grace","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"WiEuM3EyOd\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/coming-to-grips-with-grace\/\">Coming to Grips With Grace<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/coming-to-grips-with-grace\/embed\/#?secret=WiEuM3EyOd\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Coming to Grips With Grace&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"WiEuM3EyOd\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var 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prison.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2009-01-01.pdf","transcript_content":"<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Chuck:<\/strong> We live in a time what's called \"post-modernism,\" which means there is no truth, everything is relative, so there's no standards, no yardsticks, nothing to measure your life by \u2013 it's pure drifting in the vapor.\u00a0 And what I'm saying to people is, \"Yeah, that's where the secular world is,\" and if we hit them with the Bible, they're going to turn away.\u00a0 They're just going to say, \"Oh, it comes from one of these people preaching at us.\u00a0 This is the Bible Belt.\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut if you start talking about the meaning of their lives and where they're going to find fulfillment in life, you can engage them.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> This is FamilyLife Today for Thursday, January 1st.\u00a0 Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.\u00a0 We'll talk today with our guest, Chuck Colson, about how we can engage people around us in a spiritual dialog in the year 2009.\u00a0 Stay with us.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us.\u00a0 You know, it's not often when somebody comes to faith in Christ that it makes national news headlines, but I remember back when I was \u2013 I guess I was in high school or in college when the news came that Chuck Colson had found Christ.\u00a0 And the reason I remember it is because, honestly, if I'm telling the truth, I was kind of cynical about the whole thing, and I thought, \"Oh, yeah, I bet he found Christ,\" you know, the guy is trying to get out of a prison term, and he thinks maybe religion will help him out a little bit with that.\u00a0 Did you think \u2013 do you remember hearing about it?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I do and, frankly, I remember having some of those same thoughts.\u00a0 And he joins us on the broadcast \u2026\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Here we are confessing our cynicism.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> It was the real deal.\u00a0 Chuck, I'm glad it wasn't a fake.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Chuck:<\/strong> Thirty-two years ago, if it was a fake, I've certainly maintained it\u00a0 [inaudible] over these years.\u00a0 But you guys weren't alone, I mean, 90 percent of the world believed I was just looking for sympathy.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Well, and Larry King has said to you he has been impressed by, he's been witnessed to by the fact that you've persevered in your faith.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Chuck:<\/strong> Every time I have an interview with Larry King over the years, and I've had many of them, he will say, \"You know, I just am so impressed.\u00a0 You keep doing this,\" he said.\u00a0 And a number of the secular interviewers will say, \"You're really doing something with your life that I should have been doing in my life.\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo maybe that's the witness, and when you say \"publicity,\" goodness, most of our listeners won't remember Eric Sevareid or Walter Cronkite, but they devoted almost an entire broadcast on CBS News to my conversion.\u00a0 It was bigger news than Watergate because it was so improbable.\u00a0 The Boston Globe said \"if Mr. Colson can find God and be forgiven, there is hope for everybody.\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And there is.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Chuck:<\/strong> And there is.\u00a0 My life proves that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> There really is.\u00a0 You write in your book called \"The Good Life,\" you mentioned that this book is like looking in a rearview mirror.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Chuck:<\/strong> Yeah, it is.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And you're looking back over how you describe a \"tumultuous\" life.\u00a0 And, you know, if you'd have said that to me 25 years ago, Chuck, I'd have said, \"Well, yeah, maybe you because of where you came from being with Nixon and in the White House and going to prison and all the fallout of making national news with a crime,\" but, you know what?\u00a0 Now I understand what you mean \u2013 life is tumultuous and looking back over it, we can live a good life if we have our hope in the right place.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Chuck:<\/strong> Yeah, it's true.\u00a0 Everybody thinks that you can go through life, and it's a breeze.\u00a0 People who haven't had a major crisis in life, people who haven't fallen on their face, just have to wait for their turn, because it will happen.\u00a0 You think you've got life all together, the world rolls over on top of you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut I've tried to write this book \u2013 you're quite right \u2013 looking at my life through the rearview mirror.\u00a0 I'm 73 years old, and you learn a lot.\u00a0 You learn a lot from your own experiences, you learn from your own failures \u2013 which I've had my share, certainly \u2013 and you learn from the lessons of other people's lives.\u00a0 And so \"Born Again\" was written prospectively.\u00a0 I tell the story of my conversion, coming out of politics, coming to Christ, going to prison, and that was sort of a forward look at a new life in Christ.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, 32 years later, let's look back and see what really happened \u2013 what worked out, what didn't work out.\u00a0 And I wrote this basically \u2013 I think you fellows know, I wrote it principally for seekers.\u00a0 People today are searching for the questions about meaning and purpose \u2013 what is life all about and how do I find my fulfillment and why am I here and what's my purpose, what am I going to do with my life?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo I wrote this, hopefully, because my life has been such a rollercoaster up and down, that people would look at my life and then learn some of the lessons that I've learned, and it leads you to only one place as all of us know.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Well, it's interesting, because as I started reading through this book, I had the thought, \"This is your Ecclesiastes.\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Chuck:<\/strong> Yeah, it is \u2013 \"Vanity, vanity and a striving after the wind,\" precisely.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> All of life is that until you come to the end, and you say if there is no faith, if there is no hope, then there is nothing.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Chuck:<\/strong> Yeah, the last words of Ecclesiastes capture it all.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> They really do.\u00a0 There's a scene that I think really sets the stage for your book, and it's early in the book, but it tells the story of how you got together with a group of people and announced your conversion.\u00a0 You said there was polite applause, and you were near some bay or some sound, and a man was \u2013 I loved the way you described it \u2013 he was leaning back with a cocktail in his hand, and he basically said, \"Mr. Colson, as you can see, all of us here have lived a good life.\u00a0 We have it all.\"\u00a0 It was evidently people who owned yachts and three and four homes around the world.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Chuck:<\/strong> It was Hope Sound in Florida, which is one of the watering spots for the truly rich and famous and wealthy from all over the world, and this woman is a lovely, beautiful Christian woman \u2013 took her backyard, which looks over the bay, and the bay was full of beautiful 70, 80, 100-foot yachts, and she put a tent out, and she had a 5:00 party, and everybody came in their white dinner jackets and long gowns because they were heading off to different parties for the evening, and I gave my testimony because she had arranged it this way.\u00a0 I would give my testimony and then take questions and answers.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI gave my testimony, and most people were looking away, or they had this studied indifference about them \u2013 they didn't want to appear to be affected by it.\u00a0 All the questions were then about Watergate, Nixon, the presidency, prison, and just as it was getting ready to get over \u2013 it was not an easy experience \u2013 just as it was about to end, this man leaning against the tent pole, legs crossed, cocktail in one hand, looks at me and says, \"Mr. Colson, you had this dramatic experience going from the White House to prison, but what are you going to say to the rest of us here?\"\u00a0 He said, \"You can see,\" and he sweeps his hand overlooking at the bay, \"You can see that we really have the good life.\u00a0 We don't have these kinds of problems.\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI said, \"Well, you may not have had them yet \u2013 you will.\u00a0 If there is anybody here who has really had a life without problems, I'd sure like to talk to them afterwards, because everybody has their share of problems, and if you don't now, you will when you're lying on your deathbed and all of these things will have no meaning to you because you know your life is about to end.\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt was like letting air out of a bellows.\u00a0 Just \u2013 whoosh!\u00a0 You could feel people exhaling.\u00a0 There wasn't a sound, nobody applauded.\u00a0 The hostess got up and said, \"Well, make yourselves comfortable, and Mr. Colson will stay and answer questions.\"\u00a0 And I had a stream of people, and my wife did as well.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Chuck:<\/strong> And we did a dinner that night, coming up telling me, \"My son is on drugs, and I can't find him,\" and \"My husband's got four mistresses, I don't know how to deal with it.\"\u00a0 I mean, it was just a neverending series of problems.\u00a0 There's one study I cite in the book that finds that \u2013 empirically finds \u2013 that people can become content and happy in a middle-class lifestyle.\u00a0 Money in excess of that doesn't do anything.\u00a0 It does not increase their happiness by any measure, and very often creates unhappiness.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> You know, there is a generation of our listeners who really have never heard the story of how you came to faith in Christ.\u00a0 So to set the stage for how this book has come about, how your Ecclesiastes began to be written, take us back to the White House.\u00a0 You were working for President Nixon; had one of the most prestigious jobs there.\u00a0 You were a powerful man, an attorney, you and your wife, Patty, were raising your family at the time.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Were you counsel to the president?\u00a0 Was that your \u2026?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Chuck:<\/strong> I was special counsel to the president, yes, and I was in the office \u2013 as a matter of fact, my office was immediately next to his \u2013 his working office in the executive office building, and we were very close.\u00a0 I was one of the four or five people closest to the president.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI really came up with the strategy for the 1972 campaign, which was a landslide victory for the president \u2013 historic landslide victory, as a matter of fact.\u00a0 And when the election was over, that night, as a matter of fact, when the voting was taking place, Nixon had me and Bob Haldeman, just two of us, in his office.\u00a0 We sat there until 2 in the morning \u2013 Patty and my kids were in my office waiting for me.\u00a0 And he's toasting me with all the vote results coming in and talking about the fact that I'd made his presidency, and I can do anything I want in the cabinet and go practice law, and I'd make hundreds of thousands of dollars a year, which I had done before I'd come to the White House.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo I really had the life made, and the next morning I woke up feeling miserable and for two or three months I would sit in my office and look out over the beautiful manicured lawns of the south lawn of the White House and think about, \"Boy, this is pretty good, you know, the grandson of immigrants comes to this country, rises to the top, earns a scholarship to college, I'd been a success at everything I'd ever done, and here I am and what's it all about?\"\u00a0 And had this incredible period of emptiness.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd then I went to Boston one day after I left the White House, then I went back to my law firm.\u00a0 I had a meeting with the president of Raytheon, one of the largest corporations in America, because I was once again to be their counsel; I'd been counsel before I went to the White House and I was coming back to be counsel again.\u00a0 And he \u2013 Tom Phillips, the president, just seemed so different.\u00a0 He was calm, and he was peaceful, and we had a great conversation, and he started asking me about me and my family and how I was weathering Watergate.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI said, \"Tom, you've changed, what's happened to you?\"\u00a0 He said, \"Yes, I've accepted Jesus Christ and committed my life to Him.\"\u00a0 He kind of looked away when he did that, almost like he was embarrassed to say it, but he shocked me.\u00a0 I took a firm grip on the bottom of the chair.\u00a0 I'd never heard anyone say something like that \u2013 that boldly.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Now, wait a second.\u00a0 You hadn't grown up in the church?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Chuck:<\/strong> Oh, no.\u00a0 I'd been in church twice a year, if that, and would say I was a Christian because I grew up in America, and it's a Christian country, and I wasn't Jewish, so I must be a Christian.\u00a0 I had no idea what a Christian was, no clue.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd he said to me, \"I've given my life to Jesus Christ,\" it was shocking words.\u00a0 But over those next several months, I began to think about that conversation and wonder what he really meant and why he was so peaceful and why his personality had changed so dramatically.\u00a0 And so in the summer of 1973, in the darkest days of Watergate, the world caving in, I went back and spent an evening on the porch of his home outside of Boston \u2013 a hot August night, and he witnessed to me; told me what had happened to him; told me his story, an amazing story.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd he also read to me a chapter out of C.S. Lewis's book, \"Mere Christianity\" about the great sin, the great sin, pride, and it was me Lewis was writing about, and I realized my life, I thought was idealistic, I was trying to do all these things for my family, I was trying to serve my country \u2013 it was all about me, and it was pride.\u00a0 And I didn't give in.\u00a0 He wanted to pray with me, and he led a prayer, but I didn't.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> You resisted?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Chuck:<\/strong> I resisted, sure.\u00a0 I'm too proud \u2013 a big-time Washington lawyer and friend of the President of the United States.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> You didn't want to bow to anybody?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Chuck:<\/strong> That's right.\u00a0 And I went up to get in my automobile and start to drive away, and got about 100 yards and had to stop the car, I was crying too hard.\u00a0 I called out to God \u2013 I said, \"Come into my life.\u00a0 If this is true, I want to know You, I want to be forgiven.\"\u00a0 And that was the night that Jesus came into my life, nothing has been the same since, nothing can ever be the same again.\u00a0 The world all scoffed, as you guys noted at the beginning of the program, but it was okay.\u00a0 I persevered, and my faith really sustained me through prison, and then I saw a mission in life.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd, of course, that's the great paradox.\u00a0 One of the things I talk about in this book is that everything about life is a paradox.\u00a0 It's not the way it appears, and we get this idea about what's good in life, but what turns out to be best for us is the thing we least expect or maybe don't want.\u00a0 The greatest thing that ever happened in my life was going to prison.\u00a0 Thank God for Watergate, thank God for what happened to me.\u00a0 Because I went through this, I've discovered what life is really all about, and that's what I write it in here, basically, what I've discovered life is all about.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> You actually said that in a \"60 Minutes\" interview.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Chuck:<\/strong> I did.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And Mike Wallace \u2013 it stunned him that you said that \u2013 \"Thank God for Watergate.\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Chuck:<\/strong> He stopped the interview.\u00a0 That was the 20th anniversary of Watergate, and he was sitting on my porch at home.\u00a0 He brought his camera crew, and Mike and I had been pretty good friends, actually, through the years.\u00a0 And he was sitting there, and I said, \"Yeah, I thank God for Watergate.\"\u00a0 He just \u2013 he was at a loss for words, and they stopped, and when you saw that on the screen, there was a break at that point, because he didn't know how to respond to that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Your spiritual malaise, though, really came before Watergate was a news story.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Chuck:<\/strong> Oh, yeah, yeah.\u00a0 It was the fact that I'd done everything, and I was 41 years old, I'd ended up in the office next to the president.\u00a0 I grew up in very humble circumstances; I earned scholarships; I went into the Marines; became the youngest company officer for a brief period in the Marine Corps; the youngest administrative assistant in the United States Senate; went through law school at night, which was a tremendously difficult thing to do and, you know, here I am.\u00a0 I've done everything \u2013 built a law firm, great success, and I couldn't see what life was about.\u00a0 And you get to the place \u2013 \"Is this all it is?\u00a0 There's got to be more to life than this.\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd I think every human being arrives at that point.\u00a0 When they do \u2013 a lot of people will go and take a drink and try to make that feeling go away, or they'll take some pills or they get in drugs, or they go have an affair.\u00a0 But those are nagging questions in the life of every human being, and I think what we Christians have to do today \u2013 I think it's really a difficult period, because we live in a time what's called \"post-modernism,\" which means there is no truth, everything is relative, you can't trust anything you read because all it is is the opinion of the person who wrote it.\u00a0 So there are no standards, no yardsticks, nothing to measure your life by.\u00a0 It's pure drifting in the vapor.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd what I'm saying to people is, \"Yeah, that's where the secular world is,\" and if we hit them with the Bible, they're going to turn away.\u00a0 They're just going to say, \"Oh, here comes one of these people preaching at us.\u00a0 This is the Bible Belt.\"\u00a0 But if you start talking about the meaning of their lives and where they're going to find fulfillment in life, you can engage them.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Well, and we can be seduced, as believers, by the cultural message, which says, \"You will find meaning and purpose and fulfillment.\"\u00a0 I think materialism is the greatest seductress of our day, don't you?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Chuck:<\/strong> Absolutely.\u00a0 And it gets into the church, it seeps into the church.\u00a0 It's almost impossible for it not to affect Christians, because you can't turn on a radio, look at a billboard, pick up a newspaper, magazine \u2013 so we Christians absorb all this stuff, and then we kind of give it a little bit of a holy varnish by saying, \"Well, we're really Christians, and, you know, Sunday morning, at least, I'm going to be devoted to Christ.\"\u00a0 So we get affected by this.\u00a0 Yeah, we get a look at ourselves and our values.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Chuck, there's a scene that you paint vividly in your book of you've just been picked up by the federal marshals.\u00a0 You are being taken to this prison that was anything like the White House.\u00a0 I mean, you describe it well of how musty and paint \u2026\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> It wasn't a country club like everybody said it was?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Chuck:<\/strong> Well, you know, it's interesting, people say that about prisons \u2013 minimum security prisons \u2013 but I never found anybody trying to get in.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t[laughter] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> You describe that scene, though, of driving along with those federal marshals.\u00a0 You've just left your family, and you describe a peace, a lack of fear.\u00a0 Now, I have to ask you \u2013 was it your newfound faith in Christ that was the basis of you moving toward three years of incarceration?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Chuck:<\/strong> Yes.\u00a0 You go through something like Watergate where you pick up the newspaper every day and hear these charges made about you and headlines and screaming headlines, people saying outrageous things, you're in the middle of a battle for your life.\u00a0 It just totally absorbs you, it's very hard on the family, and so, all of a sudden, I've made the decision, I pled guilty, I got my sentence, I'm going off to prison, and on the ride to the prison I was kind of, well, I'm relieved, it's over.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIn fact, I slept \u2013 the first night in prison I slept better than I'd slept at home in months because I knew what I had to do, and I knew what I was going to have to face, and I knew it was going to be tough, but I knew that Jesus would sustain me.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> There was one other scene that you didn't write about in your book, but I have to wonder if it happened, and that was a scene with your family, where the reality of your choice, your guilty verdict, and the reality of prison came pressing in, and you faced your wife and your children.\u00a0 Was there a scene like that when you broke emotionally with your family?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Chuck:<\/strong> Just once \u2013 just once when I broke emotionally, yes.\u00a0 No, we talked about it, and I told the kids \u2013 first I talked to Patty, and she was really shaken when I made the decision, because it meant going to prison.\u00a0 I got a three-year sentence, I actually didn't \u2013 I served seven months, but it was a tough deal, and when she realized when I explained it that it was the right thing to do because I knew I couldn't live a Christian life and be free to live a Christian life as long as everything I was doing was being judged by how I testified in the Watergate trials.\u00a0 So, in a sense, it meant freedom to get it put behind us.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd she took it very well.\u00a0 She's been a great, strong support.\u00a0 The kids took it in different ways.\u00a0 The boys, the two boys were dismayed because they passionately believed I was innocent and should fight for it.\u00a0 The only time I broke down was with my daughter who \u2026\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> You're talking about Emily?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Chuck:<\/strong> Emily, yeah, and I was putting her on a plane and she said \u2013 to go back to school \u2013 and I said, \"I hope I haven't disappointed you, Emily,\" and she turned around, threw her arms around me and said, \"I'm proud of you, Daddy.\"\u00a0 That was a great moment.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You know, even as you recount that, I'm thinking of the paradox that must have been a part of your life.\u00a0 You were a Marine, right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Chuck:<\/strong> Mm-hm.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> The Marine Corps is all about character.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Chuck:<\/strong> Oh, yeah, absolutely.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Chuck Colson in the White House was the antithesis of character.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Chuck:<\/strong> Well, he didn't know it at the time.\u00a0 He thought he was being the embodiment of the Marine Corps character.\u00a0 The Marine Corps character is Semper Fidelis, always faithful; can do \u2013 whatever the job is, you're going to do it, it doesn't matter \u2013 walk through fire and bullets.\u00a0 So when Nixon would say, \"We've made a decision,\" there were times I'd argue with him because I thought he was wrong sometimes.\u00a0 But once he made the decision, he was the guy that got elected president.\u00a0 I wasn't.\u00a0 I was there to serve him.\u00a0 I had two choices \u2013 obey the order or resign.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo I did it.\u00a0 For me, the ends justified the means, and that's why I say in this book, you cannot live the good life until you recognize the evil within yourself.\u00a0 The good life is impossible without recognizing evil in yourself.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Yes, and it's all centered around who God is and I just wanted to say, too, at the conclusion of this broadcast, thank you for being faithful.\u00a0 I'm sure there have been many traps in leadership since you came to faith and, personally, I'm glad Bob and I were wrong back when we heard of your conversion and that the cynicism that many felt has been disproved by a life well lived and by someone who is finishing strong.\u00a0 I just personally want to say thank you to you for not just living the good life but for following the King faithfully and representing Him exceptionally well.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Chuck:<\/strong> Well, I thank you very much, Dennis, those are kind words.\u00a0 I have to tell you that I've just been a man doing his duty.\u00a0 When I think of what my Savior did for me that night in the driveway when it became so clear to me that my sins had been forgiven, I would be dead today were it not for that.\u00a0 I would have suffocated in the stench of my own sin.\u00a0 So I do what I do out of gratitude to God for what He's done for me.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And the point, again, is that the man who is doing his duty is the man who is living the good life, isn't it?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Chuck:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> We've got copies of your book in our FamilyLife Resource Center.\u00a0 In fact, I want to encourage our listeners, go to FamilyLifeToday.com.\u00a0 On our website, we have listed a number of resources, like Chuck's book, that are designed to help you think about how to engage people around you in this kind of a dialog that can get their minds opened up to the reality of the Gospel.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe've got copies of the book, \"Mere Christianity,\" which was the book you said, Chuck, was instrumental in you coming to faith in Christ, and other resources as well.\u00a0 Again, our website if FamilyLifeToday.com, and let me encourage you to spend a little time there today and think about what you can do to be ready in this new year to initiate some of these spiritual conversations and get the dialog going about the Bible and about Jesus and about why that matters in their lives.\u00a0 Think about how you can approach this year with an evangelistic purpose in mind.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOnce again, our website is FamilyLifeToday.com, and the resources we've talked about today are available right there, or you can give us a call at 1-800-FLTODAY.\u00a0 Our phones are closed today, but we'll have a team here tomorrow, and if you need to get in touch with us then, or if you'd like to have these resources sent to you, just write down the number, 1-800-358-6329.\u00a0 That's 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY.\u00a0 Give us a call tomorrow, and we'll make arrangements to have the resources you need sent to you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, tomorrow we want to encourage you to be back with us.\u00a0 Chuck Colson is going to be here again, and we're going to continue talking about how we engage our friends, our co-workers, our neighbors, in the kind of conversation that helps reshape their thinking and ultimately may lead them to faith in Christ.\u00a0 I hope you can join us for that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team.\u00a0 On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine.\u00a0 We'll see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tFamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas \u2013 help for today; hope for tomorrow.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts for you. However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright \u00a9 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>www.FamilyLife.com<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>","theme_header_position":"","post_header_is_sticky":"","is_header_overlay":""},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/301738","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/91"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=301738"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/294104"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=301738"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=301738"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=301738"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=301738"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=301738"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=301738"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}