{"id":301710,"date":"2008-11-05T12:00:00","date_gmt":"2008-11-05T17:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/finding-freedom-in-christ\/"},"modified":"2008-11-05T12:00:00","modified_gmt":"2008-11-05T17:00:00","slug":"finding-freedom-in-christ","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/finding-freedom-in-christ\/","title":{"rendered":"Finding Freedom in Christ"},"content":{"rendered":"","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Find out what to do if you see the tell-tale signs of pornography addiction in your spouse.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2008-11-05.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:","filesize":"11.52M","filesize_raw":"12076996","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2844],"tags":[4129,2989,2320,2991],"podcast_series":[7615],"cwp_profile":[9149],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-301710","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-pornography","tag-homosexuality","tag-pornography","tag-purity","tag-sex","podcast_series-setting-captives-free","cwp_profile-mike-cleveland","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/301710\/finding-freedom-in-christ","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/301710\/finding-freedom-in-christ","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"JuBk95DwNN\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/finding-freedom-in-christ\/\">Finding Freedom in Christ<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/finding-freedom-in-christ\/embed\/#?secret=JuBk95DwNN\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Finding Freedom in Christ&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"JuBk95DwNN\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2008-11-05.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2008-11-05.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jody:<\/strong> When you go in anger, James tells us that the anger in a man does not produce the righteous life that God desires, and you're not going to get a good response when you come in all ragey.\u00a0 But if you come in gently in love saying, \"We can make this work; we can get where we need to be if we work together as a team.\"\u00a0 Then, usually, you get a very good response.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> This is FamilyLife Today for Wednesday, November 5th.\u00a0 Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.\u00a0 When sexual sin has found its way into a marriage, it takes a husband and a wife working together in the power of the Holy Spirit for there to be forgiveness and freedom.\u00a0 Stay tuned.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us.\u00a0 You know, I think a lot of people who find themselves snared by a particular pattern of sin in their lives, they wind up feeling like there's just no hope.\u00a0 Because they've tried, Dennis, to do something \u2013 to say \"I'm going to use more willpower, I'm going to try this, I'm going to stop this\" \u2026\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \"I'll never do it again.\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And they fall, and so they go, \"Well, my willpower is useless against this problem.\u00a0 There is no hope for me.\"\u00a0 But if they've been paying attention this week, there is hope, isn't there?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> There really is and, you know, let's be honest \u2013 there are some habitual sins that, man, they're just around the corner.\u00a0 We can step off into them so easily.\u00a0 Maybe it's a sin of the tongue, maybe it's an attitude, maybe it's alcohol, drugs, pornography, chat rooms \u2013 everybody has their snares.\u00a0 They have to be on guard.\u00a0 You can't drop your guard for a moment, but there is hope, there is hope.\u00a0 That's what the Scripture offers us.\u00a0 It speaks to people who are broken who need a Savior, who need forgiveness regularly, and I receive that forgiveness gratefully from God on a regular basis.\u00a0 He is a great God who is gracious and loves to forgiveness us.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThis week we've heard a compelling story from Mike and Jody Cleveland who have been sharing a story of, really, that same redemption.\u00a0 A story of pornography, chat rooms on the Internet resulting in affairs, deception, really, over a 15-year period that ultimately resulted in Mike coming clean, and then both he and his wife, Jody, coming to faith in Christ, and I just want to say thanks, Jody, for joining us on FamilyLife Today and, you, too, Mike, and sharing your story.\u00a0 I think just sharing your story is going to set a lot of captives free in and of itself.\u00a0 Welcome back.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mike:<\/strong> Thank you, good to be here.\u00a0 That's why we share our testimonies.\u00a0 It's hope giving to others.\u00a0 I was thinking, as you were talking, Bob, about hope.\u00a0 The Scripture says \"As for you, because of the blood of my covenant with you, I will free your prisoners from the waterless pit.\u00a0 Return to your fortress, O prisoners of hope.\u00a0 Even now I announce that I will restore twice as much to you.\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo when we become captive to Christ, we become prisoners of hope.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> That's great.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Yeah, and the one who always accepts us and welcomes us back no matter how many times we flub up.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And, Jody, we've unpacked your story this week hearing about Mike's involvement in pornography and how it ended his first marriage.\u00a0 The two of you met and were married.\u00a0 You were oblivious to the fact that he was continuing to be involved in pornography and in immorality prior to your marriage and then after you were married.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tLooking back on your dating months together, were there any signs that you saw at the time or signs that you looked back and said, \"Oh, I should have been alert to that,\" that would have been a tipoff that something wasn't right here?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jody:<\/strong> Oh, sure.\u00a0 Things like evasiveness, being gone or inaccessible for long periods of time, small lies, lies about things that don't really matter, like what you ate for lunch or what you did today.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Would you catch him in those lies?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jody:<\/strong> Oh, yeah, sometimes.\u00a0 It would be like, \"Oh, I had\" \u2013 or \"I went here,\" and then he didn't go there, and it was like, \"But what's this Burger King wrapper or whatever?\"\u00a0 You know, so odd things that just didn't make any sense were really fatigued, being very, very tired after he should have rested all night.\u00a0 I'm like, \"Okay, why are you so tired?\"\u00a0 \"Oh, I don't know, I just didn't sleep well.\"\u00a0 Well, really, he was up all night involved with sin.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd strange phone calls from people that we didn't know or \u2013\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And were you just living in denial and not picking that up or were you \u2013 was there some plausible explanation to why there was a Burger King wrapper instead of a restaurant?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Well, Mike said he snowed you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jody:<\/strong> He did, he really did, and I wanted to believe the best.\u00a0 Love hopes the best, and that's really what I did with him.\u00a0 I mean, whatever he said, \"Oh, okay, that \u2013 sure, all right.\"\u00a0 And I would believe the lie.\u00a0 Money that went missing, or just very closed off.\u00a0 I was not really in the know about his life at all.\u00a0 It was only what he allowed me to know.\u00a0 And then \u2013 but that was okay with me.\u00a0 I was fine.\u00a0 I just loved him so much, but it was like, \"Oh, okay,\" and I just accepted it because I loved him.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Mike, the reason I ask the question is because there are a lot of wives today who are wondering, and they want to believe the best, but they don't know if they're being na\u00efve and, you know what?\u00a0 Maybe they should believe the best because maybe their husband is innocent.\u00a0 But what does a wife do or what can she do if she suspects that her husband may be online, watching movies in hotel rooms, or more?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mike:<\/strong> Well, we teach them at our ministry to become detectives in the sense of to look at the Internet history, to look at the viewing habits on the computer and on the TV and various things.\u00a0 And it's not that they're saying, \"I don't trust you, and I'm going to go on a witch hunt to find out what you're doing.\"\u00a0 It's, \"I love you, and I care about you, and if the devil is ensnaring you somewhere, I want to come alongside with you and be your teammate against this stuff.\"\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, yes, we want them to begin looking and inspecting the life of their husband because the two are one.\u00a0 What happens in the man's life happens, whether he likes it or not, in the woman's life as well.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Jody, you just real quickly said something I wanted to go back to \u2013 you said money was missing?<br>\u00a0\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jody:<\/strong> Oh, yes.\u00a0 He made a certain amount of money, so there should have been so much money at the end of the month.\u00a0 But if he spent it on things, immoral things, then he would hide that from me \u2013 or on other women, money that he spent on other people, and he would just say, \"Oh, well, I did this or I did that at work,\" or I bought this for those people, or he just always had a good answer but, really, it was for immorality.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I want you to address women who are already in a relationship who have listened to us this week, say \"That's my husband, that's us, that's me.\"\u00a0 There are too many of these things getting checked off \u2013 where does she begin?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jody:<\/strong> Well, you want to begin at the source.\u00a0 You want to begin with her husband and going to him and saying \u2013 after you've gathered some evidence.\u00a0 Maybe she's found suspect websites, or she's found immoral material or whatever.\u00a0 And so she goes to him, and she says, \"Here is what I've got.\"\u00a0 Now, if her husband is a believer, she can biblically confront him.\u00a0 She can say, \"The Scriptures say have nothing to do with immorality, flee sexual immorality.\u00a0 We need to purify our home, and I love you, and I want to be pure with you, and let's get rid of all this stuff, and let's do it together and how can I help you?\"\u00a0 And go at it with that attitude.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf he's not a believer, she can appeal to him on a purely moral basis as saying, you know, \"This isn't healthy.\u00a0 It's not good for our marriage.\"\u00a0 But if he's a believer, she's got grounds, you know, to really appeal to his heart and to really make some progress.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd always going in love, because when you go in anger, James tells us that the anger of man does not produce the righteous life that God desires, and you're not going to get a good response when you come in all ragey.\u00a0 But if you come in gently in love saying, \"We can make this work.\u00a0 We can get where we need to be if we work together as a team,\" usually, you get a very good response.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mike:<\/strong> I'm going to say in addition to that that the man who is needing to confess to his wife should not do it as I have done it \u2013 as just a pure cleansing thing for the man \u2013 \"I'm going to dump all this out and feel better about myself.\"\u00a0 He needs to present his plan of what he is going to do to be free from this.\u00a0 \"Yes, that's true, I have viewed this, however, I found a website, Setting Captives Free,\" or whatever, \"that I'm working through this to get free from it.\" \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSecond of all, here is my accountability partners' phone number \u2013 my pastor, my elder, my friend \u2013 and you can call them if you have an issue that you wonder if I\u2019m not telling you the truth or something.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThirdly, I've rid my life of cable TV and of whatever \u2013 so that you're not just dumping, you're actually explaining to her that \"Here is what I'm doing about it, and will you come along with me in this plan and help me to get free.\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And as you get free, you are free to begin to build bridges that re-establish trust, and that's my question for you, Jody, is, okay, you've both come to faith in Christ now in your story, but here is a man who has just confessed for 15 years he's had an addiction to pornography, chat rooms, infidelity, he's lied to you, deceived you, hoodwinked you into a relationship, and now you're a year into your marriage, you've just had your first child \u2013 how did you rebuild trust?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jody:<\/strong> Well, when he was talking earlier about radical amputation, I was thinking the whole time, those were huge trust-building things that he did.\u00a0 He got rid of his laptop computer, which meant no more chat rooms, no more access to the Internet, so that was a huge faith-builder, a trust-building thing that he did. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHe got rid of anything that was suspect.\u00a0 He came to me and said, \"What bothers you?\u00a0 What's going to help you feel safe in the marriage?\u00a0 And what's going to help you know that I love you and that I'm for you?\"\u00a0 And so we brainstormed together \u2013 how can we build trust together?\u00a0 And he didn't put any limits on it.\u00a0 He didn't say, \"Okay, everything but that, I've got to keep that for whatever,\" he didn't.\u00a0 He said, \"I'm willing to do whatever it takes.\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt was so beautiful, and it was really encouraging to my soul.\u00a0 It wasn't that it all just suddenly was perfect and roses, but he was making an effort, and if he made an effort, I was able to do that, too.\u00a0 He brought me, he told me all about our finances, I saw every bill, every phone bill, every credit card, everything.\u00a0 I knew everything about our \u2013 and that was new to our marriage, because I didn't know anything before.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> So all these steps that he took really fueled your ability to be able to trust him \u2013 still, take me to the first trip he made.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jody:<\/strong> Oh, well, yeah.\u00a0 There was a lot of trepidation, right, because here I knew, and now I'm fearful.\u00a0 He flies with beautiful women, and he's in foreign cities, and the evil one is never far away.\u00a0 So I feared for him, but he was really great.\u00a0 He went \u2013 in fact, they used to tease him because they said he had the phone stuck to his ear, because he got a new cell phone, and he would call me the minute he landed, and he would talk to me all the way to the hotel, then he would \u2013 when he got to the hotel, he would get everything all situated, get rid of the TV and whatever, and then he would tell me what he was going to do while he was there.\u00a0 And anytime I phoned, he would answer.\u00a0 He had that with him all the time so that I could catch him anytime.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd he was just available, which was so different than what it was before.\u00a0 It was just a complete 180 in our relationship.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Mike, from the point where you came to faith and where you started to take these radical steps that you've been talking about\u2013 were there lapses in your life?\u00a0 Times when you drifted back into old behavior?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mike:<\/strong> There was never a lapse at all with pornography or chat groups or anything like that.\u00a0 I've been totally free from that now since January of '99, however long that is.\u00a0 But there was an issue of six months of self-gratification that continued because that was formed when I was a young boy as a habit, and that continued on.\u00a0 And I didn't realize how that was still impurity, and, you know, if you are burning, Paul says, you are to marry, not to self-gratify.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd so when that stopped after six months, that completely ceased, and then I had to go to my wife for any times that I was really desiring, and that's what really bonded us because now there was no false intimacy outside of me and her.\u00a0 And so there has certainly been temptation but, you know, when a man becomes pure, the power of God actually begins working in him as well, and so that being in the light is an armor \u2013 put on the armor of light, and so there has been no false \u2013 not to say that there couldn't be, I don't dare say, hey, when, you know, I could view pornography today, no problem \u2013 no, I don't do that.\u00a0 I steer clear of it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Mike, you have two children from a previous marriage, a previous marriage that was destroyed by your sexual sin.\u00a0 How did you approach your ex-wife and your children with the news of your repentance, and how was that received?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mike:<\/strong> That's a good question, it's a hard question.\u00a0 Jody and I, one year after our repentance and coming to faith in Jesus, flew with our pastor and an elder up to Vancouver, Washington, to where they were and confessed adultery and asked for forgiveness and had a meeting with \u2013 I guess there was probably 15 people there, maybe 20, and just simply asked for their forgiveness.\u00a0 And the same with our children \u2013 I went into a room with them and our pastor, and we came in, and I explained the sin struggles that I had, and that God had set me free from them and that Jesus was my Lord, and that I asked their forgiveness for that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd they granted it to me and others did as well.\u00a0 And so we have a foundation of grace now.\u00a0 My oldest son is going into the ministry at this point, and God has just worked wonderful grace through all of that situation.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You developed a 60-day program.\u00a0 Was this kind of looking back at your own path and saying, \"I'm going to chart out for other guys the path that God took me on,\" or how did that come about?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mike:<\/strong> It did.\u00a0 Let me share with you the verse that helped me to develop that \u2013 \"In a large house there are articles not only of gold, silver, but also of wood and clay.\u00a0 Some are for noble purposes and some for ignoble.\u00a0 If a man cleanses himself from the latter, he will be an instrument for noble purposes, made holy, useful to the Master, and prepared to do any good work.\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd I came across this verse, and I said, \"I wonder if God could use me?\"\u00a0 At this point, I felt that I had gone too far and was in too deep and so forth, but I just began praying that maybe God would bring another couple along that needed help and, sure enough, we found some at church and began to pour the truths of God's Word into them.\u00a0 And it was actually that first couple that said, \"You really need to write this down because it's so helpful.\u00a0 We need to be able to read it together.\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd so I did and began putting the truths of Scripture into a book format.\u00a0 Actually, we put it online, and the first day that we opened the Internet doors, there were 800 visitors that day, and it told me that this problem is probably bigger than we had originally thought.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Eight hundred visitors who found you how?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mike:<\/strong> Well, I don't really remember. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> They just \u2013 you opened the doors, and they were there, ready, looking for help?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mike:<\/strong> Yeah.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And so now there's 6,000 people right now going through one of your courses dealing with various addictions and things that ensnare people?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mike:<\/strong> Yeah, we have about 6,000 every month.\u00a0 Every month there's about another 3,000 or 4,000 that come and sign up to go through.\u00a0 But it's not just impurity issues now.\u00a0 It's also all kinds of other areas that it's branched out to \u2013 things like overeating and issues with food, things like gambling and drunkenness and drugs and homosexuality and just \u2013 as people would come along and get free from their particular issues, they would say, \"Hey, we could make a course that would help specifically in this area.\"\u00a0 And so we would partner with other people to sort of formulate the truths of Scripture towards that direction.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And we've got a link on our website at FamilyLife.com for folks who would like to find out more about your website and about what's available, and all of these courses that you've got up there are just free for anyone who wants to go through them, right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mike:<\/strong> Freely we've received, freely we need to give, so there is no charge ever for anything, even our conferences are all free.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I'm thinking of parents who have been listening to our broadcast this week.\u00a0 They've got to be scared to death, I mean, maybe they're raising little kids right now, still in grade school or younger, and they're going, \"Man, are we headed into some turbulent waters.\"\u00a0 And the answer is, \"Yes, you are.\"\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat do you say to them to give them hope but, at the same time, give them some direction and guidance as to how they can not overprotect their kids \u2013 and I think we should do that as much as possible.\u00a0 I'm not putting a disclaimer on that, but I'm just not sure it's possible, in this culture, to totally protect.\u00a0 There are so many places, public places, where they could get access.\u00a0 Where do parents start today?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mike:<\/strong> Well, first of all, I think a really great book is called \"Interviewing Your Daughter's Date,\" by Dennis Rainey.\u00a0 That's probably a good place to start.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And, by the way, we have that in our FamilyLife Resource Center, if you'd like to get a copy of that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> No, seriously, where can they find help?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mike:<\/strong> You need to have open and free communication with your children.\u00a0 You need to talk about these issues with them, because if you don't, their kids will at school, or somebody they run into on the street.\u00a0 And so we start with open communication about self-gratification, teaching about, you know, that \u2013 I remember the first time we talked with our young boy about this issue and told him that God gave us these private parts to enjoy with our future mates, and that's what they're for.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd the first question he said \u2013 he was about eight \u2013 \"Well, when can I get a wife?\"\u00a0 Because he had the desire, as we all do, at a young age.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut to talk openly about that is the greatest thing that you can do to explain that God has His Book, the Bible.\u00a0 The devil has his book, it's got naked pictures in it.\u00a0 And as you grow up, you'll be presented with the Tree of Life or the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, and as that choice comes to you, we want to prepare you for turning to the Lord and to His Word and saving yourself for your spouse.\u00a0 So you've got to talk openly about it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> As you were talking, Mike and Jody, you'll remember right before we came in the studio, I got a chance to meet your kids, and you've got a couple of twin girls who are, what, seven years old?\u00a0 Seven years old, and a son who is about to turn 10, another one 13, and they've all been really good out in the studio taking care of the buttons out there and helping the broadcast.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut I brought a book in for each of them that I wanted to give them called \"So You're About to be a Teenager.\"\u00a0 I think we underestimate how important it is for parents to stay connected with their kids not just up until the point of puberty but get them ready for it, equip them for it, talk to them about it, Passport to Purity weekend for a mother\/daughter, father\/son, is a great investment because it connects your heart to theirs around the most intimate of life issues, and then to stay connected.\u00a0 All the way through \u2013 13, 14, 15, 16, on into young adulthood and continue to ask your kids questions \u2013 how are you doing?\u00a0 How's the struggle?\u00a0 Because the temptations are not going to go away just because they become young adults.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIn fact, I recently wrote a letter to all the men in my family.\u00a0 I've just seen infidelity and what it does to a marriage, fresh, through a friend that had stumbled, and I just wrote a passionate e-mail to all the men saying, \"Guys, be faithful, stand firm.\"\u00a0 And what we're talking about here is really parents who represent what's right, teach what's right, continue to teach what's right, don't quit, persevere, and I think you guys have done a great job this week of really encouraging us to be transparent, to be honest, and to also instruct our kids. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tMike, Jody, thanks for your ministry and just all you do.\u00a0 I appreciate you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mike:<\/strong> Dennis, thank you so much for your ministry, and it's just been a joy to see the Lord use you as well, and we're just glad to be with you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jody:<\/strong> Thank you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Well, and we hope that folks who need help will come to our website at FamilyLife.com.\u00a0 Click on the right side of the home page where it says \"Today's Broadcast.\"\u00a0 That will take you to an area of the site where there is a link to your website, and there is also more information about the workbook that you've created called \"The Way of Purity,\" and that material is also available online on your website, if folks would like to go through the 60-day course that you take folks through that's the path from bondage to freedom.\u00a0 They can get the workbook from us, or they can get the material from your website.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd if they're serious about this and want to maintain purity, we've talked about this whole issue of accountability being so key to this \u2013 we would encourage them to consider using a tool like the Covenant Eyes program.\u00a0 This is way where you and an accountability partner can share with one another each week the websites you've been looking at.\u00a0 In fact, there is an automatic e-mail that goes out each week that tells your accountability partner where you've been on the Web, and you find out where he has been on the Web, and the two of you can be praying for one another, can be holding each other accountable, can be challenging each other to be men of purity.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAgain, all the details about Covenant Eyes are on our website at FamilyLife.com.\u00a0 Click on the right side of the home page where it says \"Today's Broadcast,\" and you'll find the information you need there.\u00a0 Or you can call us at 1-800-FLTODAY, 1-800-358-6329, that's 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY.\u00a0 Someone on our team will make arrangements to get the resources you need sent out to you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen you get in touch with us, can I encourage you to consider making a donation to the ministry of FamilyLife Today?\u00a0 Your donations are what keep us on the air in this city and in other cities all across the country.\u00a0 So we appreciate your financial support of this ministry, and this month when you make a donation of any amount, there's a book we'd love to send you.\u00a0 It's a prayer guide for parents called \"While They Were Sleeping.\" \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThis is a book that gives you specific character qualities to be praying for as your children are growing and, in fact, purity is one of those character qualities that's highlighted in this book, and we need to be faithful, as parents, to pray for these things with our children.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou can request a copy of the book when you make a donation online at FamilyLife.com, and if you do that, when you come to the keycode box on the donation form, just type in the word \"sleep\" or call 1-800-FLTODAY, make a donation over the phone and just request a copy of the book, \"While They Were Sleeping,\" or the prayer guide for parents and, again, we're happy to send it out to you.\u00a0 We so much appreciate your partnership with us financially, and it's always a joy to hear from you.\u00a0 So thanks for getting in touch.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, tomorrow, Kurt and Olivia Bruner are going to join us.\u00a0 We're going to talk about fun things that families can do that will also help your children grow in their faith.\u00a0 We've got some recipes for you tomorrow, and I hope you'll tune in.\u00a0 I think you'll enjoy them.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team.\u00a0 On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine.\u00a0 We'll see you again tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tFamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas \u2013 help for today; hope for tomorrow.\u00a0\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t_______________________________________________________________\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts for you. However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright \u00a9 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>www.FamilyLife.com<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>"],"_seopress_titles_title":[""],"_seopress_titles_desc":[""],"_seopress_robots_index":[""],"duration":["00:"],"show_notes":[""],"_thumbnail_id":["294104"],"filesize":["11.52M"],"filesize_raw":["12076996"],"_uag_css_file_name":["uag-css-301710.css"],"_uag_js_file_name":["uag-js-301710.js"],"_uag_page_assets":["a:9:{s:3:\"css\";s:82560:\".wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-top svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-top .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-bottom svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-bottom .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f 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out what to do if you see the tell-tale signs of pornography addiction in your spouse.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2008-11-05.pdf","transcript_content":"<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jody:<\/strong> When you go in anger, James tells us that the anger in a man does not produce the righteous life that God desires, and you're not going to get a good response when you come in all ragey.\u00a0 But if you come in gently in love saying, \"We can make this work; we can get where we need to be if we work together as a team.\"\u00a0 Then, usually, you get a very good response.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> This is FamilyLife Today for Wednesday, November 5th.\u00a0 Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.\u00a0 When sexual sin has found its way into a marriage, it takes a husband and a wife working together in the power of the Holy Spirit for there to be forgiveness and freedom.\u00a0 Stay tuned.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us.\u00a0 You know, I think a lot of people who find themselves snared by a particular pattern of sin in their lives, they wind up feeling like there's just no hope.\u00a0 Because they've tried, Dennis, to do something \u2013 to say \"I'm going to use more willpower, I'm going to try this, I'm going to stop this\" \u2026\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \"I'll never do it again.\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And they fall, and so they go, \"Well, my willpower is useless against this problem.\u00a0 There is no hope for me.\"\u00a0 But if they've been paying attention this week, there is hope, isn't there?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> There really is and, you know, let's be honest \u2013 there are some habitual sins that, man, they're just around the corner.\u00a0 We can step off into them so easily.\u00a0 Maybe it's a sin of the tongue, maybe it's an attitude, maybe it's alcohol, drugs, pornography, chat rooms \u2013 everybody has their snares.\u00a0 They have to be on guard.\u00a0 You can't drop your guard for a moment, but there is hope, there is hope.\u00a0 That's what the Scripture offers us.\u00a0 It speaks to people who are broken who need a Savior, who need forgiveness regularly, and I receive that forgiveness gratefully from God on a regular basis.\u00a0 He is a great God who is gracious and loves to forgiveness us.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThis week we've heard a compelling story from Mike and Jody Cleveland who have been sharing a story of, really, that same redemption.\u00a0 A story of pornography, chat rooms on the Internet resulting in affairs, deception, really, over a 15-year period that ultimately resulted in Mike coming clean, and then both he and his wife, Jody, coming to faith in Christ, and I just want to say thanks, Jody, for joining us on FamilyLife Today and, you, too, Mike, and sharing your story.\u00a0 I think just sharing your story is going to set a lot of captives free in and of itself.\u00a0 Welcome back.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mike:<\/strong> Thank you, good to be here.\u00a0 That's why we share our testimonies.\u00a0 It's hope giving to others.\u00a0 I was thinking, as you were talking, Bob, about hope.\u00a0 The Scripture says \"As for you, because of the blood of my covenant with you, I will free your prisoners from the waterless pit.\u00a0 Return to your fortress, O prisoners of hope.\u00a0 Even now I announce that I will restore twice as much to you.\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo when we become captive to Christ, we become prisoners of hope.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> That's great.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Yeah, and the one who always accepts us and welcomes us back no matter how many times we flub up.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And, Jody, we've unpacked your story this week hearing about Mike's involvement in pornography and how it ended his first marriage.\u00a0 The two of you met and were married.\u00a0 You were oblivious to the fact that he was continuing to be involved in pornography and in immorality prior to your marriage and then after you were married.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tLooking back on your dating months together, were there any signs that you saw at the time or signs that you looked back and said, \"Oh, I should have been alert to that,\" that would have been a tipoff that something wasn't right here?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jody:<\/strong> Oh, sure.\u00a0 Things like evasiveness, being gone or inaccessible for long periods of time, small lies, lies about things that don't really matter, like what you ate for lunch or what you did today.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Would you catch him in those lies?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jody:<\/strong> Oh, yeah, sometimes.\u00a0 It would be like, \"Oh, I had\" \u2013 or \"I went here,\" and then he didn't go there, and it was like, \"But what's this Burger King wrapper or whatever?\"\u00a0 You know, so odd things that just didn't make any sense were really fatigued, being very, very tired after he should have rested all night.\u00a0 I'm like, \"Okay, why are you so tired?\"\u00a0 \"Oh, I don't know, I just didn't sleep well.\"\u00a0 Well, really, he was up all night involved with sin.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd strange phone calls from people that we didn't know or \u2013\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And were you just living in denial and not picking that up or were you \u2013 was there some plausible explanation to why there was a Burger King wrapper instead of a restaurant?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Well, Mike said he snowed you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jody:<\/strong> He did, he really did, and I wanted to believe the best.\u00a0 Love hopes the best, and that's really what I did with him.\u00a0 I mean, whatever he said, \"Oh, okay, that \u2013 sure, all right.\"\u00a0 And I would believe the lie.\u00a0 Money that went missing, or just very closed off.\u00a0 I was not really in the know about his life at all.\u00a0 It was only what he allowed me to know.\u00a0 And then \u2013 but that was okay with me.\u00a0 I was fine.\u00a0 I just loved him so much, but it was like, \"Oh, okay,\" and I just accepted it because I loved him.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Mike, the reason I ask the question is because there are a lot of wives today who are wondering, and they want to believe the best, but they don't know if they're being na\u00efve and, you know what?\u00a0 Maybe they should believe the best because maybe their husband is innocent.\u00a0 But what does a wife do or what can she do if she suspects that her husband may be online, watching movies in hotel rooms, or more?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mike:<\/strong> Well, we teach them at our ministry to become detectives in the sense of to look at the Internet history, to look at the viewing habits on the computer and on the TV and various things.\u00a0 And it's not that they're saying, \"I don't trust you, and I'm going to go on a witch hunt to find out what you're doing.\"\u00a0 It's, \"I love you, and I care about you, and if the devil is ensnaring you somewhere, I want to come alongside with you and be your teammate against this stuff.\"\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, yes, we want them to begin looking and inspecting the life of their husband because the two are one.\u00a0 What happens in the man's life happens, whether he likes it or not, in the woman's life as well.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Jody, you just real quickly said something I wanted to go back to \u2013 you said money was missing?<br>\u00a0\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jody:<\/strong> Oh, yes.\u00a0 He made a certain amount of money, so there should have been so much money at the end of the month.\u00a0 But if he spent it on things, immoral things, then he would hide that from me \u2013 or on other women, money that he spent on other people, and he would just say, \"Oh, well, I did this or I did that at work,\" or I bought this for those people, or he just always had a good answer but, really, it was for immorality.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I want you to address women who are already in a relationship who have listened to us this week, say \"That's my husband, that's us, that's me.\"\u00a0 There are too many of these things getting checked off \u2013 where does she begin?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jody:<\/strong> Well, you want to begin at the source.\u00a0 You want to begin with her husband and going to him and saying \u2013 after you've gathered some evidence.\u00a0 Maybe she's found suspect websites, or she's found immoral material or whatever.\u00a0 And so she goes to him, and she says, \"Here is what I've got.\"\u00a0 Now, if her husband is a believer, she can biblically confront him.\u00a0 She can say, \"The Scriptures say have nothing to do with immorality, flee sexual immorality.\u00a0 We need to purify our home, and I love you, and I want to be pure with you, and let's get rid of all this stuff, and let's do it together and how can I help you?\"\u00a0 And go at it with that attitude.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf he's not a believer, she can appeal to him on a purely moral basis as saying, you know, \"This isn't healthy.\u00a0 It's not good for our marriage.\"\u00a0 But if he's a believer, she's got grounds, you know, to really appeal to his heart and to really make some progress.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd always going in love, because when you go in anger, James tells us that the anger of man does not produce the righteous life that God desires, and you're not going to get a good response when you come in all ragey.\u00a0 But if you come in gently in love saying, \"We can make this work.\u00a0 We can get where we need to be if we work together as a team,\" usually, you get a very good response.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mike:<\/strong> I'm going to say in addition to that that the man who is needing to confess to his wife should not do it as I have done it \u2013 as just a pure cleansing thing for the man \u2013 \"I'm going to dump all this out and feel better about myself.\"\u00a0 He needs to present his plan of what he is going to do to be free from this.\u00a0 \"Yes, that's true, I have viewed this, however, I found a website, Setting Captives Free,\" or whatever, \"that I'm working through this to get free from it.\" \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSecond of all, here is my accountability partners' phone number \u2013 my pastor, my elder, my friend \u2013 and you can call them if you have an issue that you wonder if I\u2019m not telling you the truth or something.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThirdly, I've rid my life of cable TV and of whatever \u2013 so that you're not just dumping, you're actually explaining to her that \"Here is what I'm doing about it, and will you come along with me in this plan and help me to get free.\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And as you get free, you are free to begin to build bridges that re-establish trust, and that's my question for you, Jody, is, okay, you've both come to faith in Christ now in your story, but here is a man who has just confessed for 15 years he's had an addiction to pornography, chat rooms, infidelity, he's lied to you, deceived you, hoodwinked you into a relationship, and now you're a year into your marriage, you've just had your first child \u2013 how did you rebuild trust?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jody:<\/strong> Well, when he was talking earlier about radical amputation, I was thinking the whole time, those were huge trust-building things that he did.\u00a0 He got rid of his laptop computer, which meant no more chat rooms, no more access to the Internet, so that was a huge faith-builder, a trust-building thing that he did. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHe got rid of anything that was suspect.\u00a0 He came to me and said, \"What bothers you?\u00a0 What's going to help you feel safe in the marriage?\u00a0 And what's going to help you know that I love you and that I'm for you?\"\u00a0 And so we brainstormed together \u2013 how can we build trust together?\u00a0 And he didn't put any limits on it.\u00a0 He didn't say, \"Okay, everything but that, I've got to keep that for whatever,\" he didn't.\u00a0 He said, \"I'm willing to do whatever it takes.\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt was so beautiful, and it was really encouraging to my soul.\u00a0 It wasn't that it all just suddenly was perfect and roses, but he was making an effort, and if he made an effort, I was able to do that, too.\u00a0 He brought me, he told me all about our finances, I saw every bill, every phone bill, every credit card, everything.\u00a0 I knew everything about our \u2013 and that was new to our marriage, because I didn't know anything before.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> So all these steps that he took really fueled your ability to be able to trust him \u2013 still, take me to the first trip he made.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jody:<\/strong> Oh, well, yeah.\u00a0 There was a lot of trepidation, right, because here I knew, and now I'm fearful.\u00a0 He flies with beautiful women, and he's in foreign cities, and the evil one is never far away.\u00a0 So I feared for him, but he was really great.\u00a0 He went \u2013 in fact, they used to tease him because they said he had the phone stuck to his ear, because he got a new cell phone, and he would call me the minute he landed, and he would talk to me all the way to the hotel, then he would \u2013 when he got to the hotel, he would get everything all situated, get rid of the TV and whatever, and then he would tell me what he was going to do while he was there.\u00a0 And anytime I phoned, he would answer.\u00a0 He had that with him all the time so that I could catch him anytime.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd he was just available, which was so different than what it was before.\u00a0 It was just a complete 180 in our relationship.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Mike, from the point where you came to faith and where you started to take these radical steps that you've been talking about\u2013 were there lapses in your life?\u00a0 Times when you drifted back into old behavior?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mike:<\/strong> There was never a lapse at all with pornography or chat groups or anything like that.\u00a0 I've been totally free from that now since January of '99, however long that is.\u00a0 But there was an issue of six months of self-gratification that continued because that was formed when I was a young boy as a habit, and that continued on.\u00a0 And I didn't realize how that was still impurity, and, you know, if you are burning, Paul says, you are to marry, not to self-gratify.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd so when that stopped after six months, that completely ceased, and then I had to go to my wife for any times that I was really desiring, and that's what really bonded us because now there was no false intimacy outside of me and her.\u00a0 And so there has certainly been temptation but, you know, when a man becomes pure, the power of God actually begins working in him as well, and so that being in the light is an armor \u2013 put on the armor of light, and so there has been no false \u2013 not to say that there couldn't be, I don't dare say, hey, when, you know, I could view pornography today, no problem \u2013 no, I don't do that.\u00a0 I steer clear of it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Mike, you have two children from a previous marriage, a previous marriage that was destroyed by your sexual sin.\u00a0 How did you approach your ex-wife and your children with the news of your repentance, and how was that received?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mike:<\/strong> That's a good question, it's a hard question.\u00a0 Jody and I, one year after our repentance and coming to faith in Jesus, flew with our pastor and an elder up to Vancouver, Washington, to where they were and confessed adultery and asked for forgiveness and had a meeting with \u2013 I guess there was probably 15 people there, maybe 20, and just simply asked for their forgiveness.\u00a0 And the same with our children \u2013 I went into a room with them and our pastor, and we came in, and I explained the sin struggles that I had, and that God had set me free from them and that Jesus was my Lord, and that I asked their forgiveness for that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd they granted it to me and others did as well.\u00a0 And so we have a foundation of grace now.\u00a0 My oldest son is going into the ministry at this point, and God has just worked wonderful grace through all of that situation.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You developed a 60-day program.\u00a0 Was this kind of looking back at your own path and saying, \"I'm going to chart out for other guys the path that God took me on,\" or how did that come about?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mike:<\/strong> It did.\u00a0 Let me share with you the verse that helped me to develop that \u2013 \"In a large house there are articles not only of gold, silver, but also of wood and clay.\u00a0 Some are for noble purposes and some for ignoble.\u00a0 If a man cleanses himself from the latter, he will be an instrument for noble purposes, made holy, useful to the Master, and prepared to do any good work.\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd I came across this verse, and I said, \"I wonder if God could use me?\"\u00a0 At this point, I felt that I had gone too far and was in too deep and so forth, but I just began praying that maybe God would bring another couple along that needed help and, sure enough, we found some at church and began to pour the truths of God's Word into them.\u00a0 And it was actually that first couple that said, \"You really need to write this down because it's so helpful.\u00a0 We need to be able to read it together.\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd so I did and began putting the truths of Scripture into a book format.\u00a0 Actually, we put it online, and the first day that we opened the Internet doors, there were 800 visitors that day, and it told me that this problem is probably bigger than we had originally thought.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Eight hundred visitors who found you how?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mike:<\/strong> Well, I don't really remember. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> They just \u2013 you opened the doors, and they were there, ready, looking for help?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mike:<\/strong> Yeah.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And so now there's 6,000 people right now going through one of your courses dealing with various addictions and things that ensnare people?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mike:<\/strong> Yeah, we have about 6,000 every month.\u00a0 Every month there's about another 3,000 or 4,000 that come and sign up to go through.\u00a0 But it's not just impurity issues now.\u00a0 It's also all kinds of other areas that it's branched out to \u2013 things like overeating and issues with food, things like gambling and drunkenness and drugs and homosexuality and just \u2013 as people would come along and get free from their particular issues, they would say, \"Hey, we could make a course that would help specifically in this area.\"\u00a0 And so we would partner with other people to sort of formulate the truths of Scripture towards that direction.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And we've got a link on our website at FamilyLife.com for folks who would like to find out more about your website and about what's available, and all of these courses that you've got up there are just free for anyone who wants to go through them, right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mike:<\/strong> Freely we've received, freely we need to give, so there is no charge ever for anything, even our conferences are all free.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I'm thinking of parents who have been listening to our broadcast this week.\u00a0 They've got to be scared to death, I mean, maybe they're raising little kids right now, still in grade school or younger, and they're going, \"Man, are we headed into some turbulent waters.\"\u00a0 And the answer is, \"Yes, you are.\"\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat do you say to them to give them hope but, at the same time, give them some direction and guidance as to how they can not overprotect their kids \u2013 and I think we should do that as much as possible.\u00a0 I'm not putting a disclaimer on that, but I'm just not sure it's possible, in this culture, to totally protect.\u00a0 There are so many places, public places, where they could get access.\u00a0 Where do parents start today?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mike:<\/strong> Well, first of all, I think a really great book is called \"Interviewing Your Daughter's Date,\" by Dennis Rainey.\u00a0 That's probably a good place to start.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And, by the way, we have that in our FamilyLife Resource Center, if you'd like to get a copy of that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> No, seriously, where can they find help?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mike:<\/strong> You need to have open and free communication with your children.\u00a0 You need to talk about these issues with them, because if you don't, their kids will at school, or somebody they run into on the street.\u00a0 And so we start with open communication about self-gratification, teaching about, you know, that \u2013 I remember the first time we talked with our young boy about this issue and told him that God gave us these private parts to enjoy with our future mates, and that's what they're for.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd the first question he said \u2013 he was about eight \u2013 \"Well, when can I get a wife?\"\u00a0 Because he had the desire, as we all do, at a young age.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut to talk openly about that is the greatest thing that you can do to explain that God has His Book, the Bible.\u00a0 The devil has his book, it's got naked pictures in it.\u00a0 And as you grow up, you'll be presented with the Tree of Life or the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, and as that choice comes to you, we want to prepare you for turning to the Lord and to His Word and saving yourself for your spouse.\u00a0 So you've got to talk openly about it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> As you were talking, Mike and Jody, you'll remember right before we came in the studio, I got a chance to meet your kids, and you've got a couple of twin girls who are, what, seven years old?\u00a0 Seven years old, and a son who is about to turn 10, another one 13, and they've all been really good out in the studio taking care of the buttons out there and helping the broadcast.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut I brought a book in for each of them that I wanted to give them called \"So You're About to be a Teenager.\"\u00a0 I think we underestimate how important it is for parents to stay connected with their kids not just up until the point of puberty but get them ready for it, equip them for it, talk to them about it, Passport to Purity weekend for a mother\/daughter, father\/son, is a great investment because it connects your heart to theirs around the most intimate of life issues, and then to stay connected.\u00a0 All the way through \u2013 13, 14, 15, 16, on into young adulthood and continue to ask your kids questions \u2013 how are you doing?\u00a0 How's the struggle?\u00a0 Because the temptations are not going to go away just because they become young adults.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIn fact, I recently wrote a letter to all the men in my family.\u00a0 I've just seen infidelity and what it does to a marriage, fresh, through a friend that had stumbled, and I just wrote a passionate e-mail to all the men saying, \"Guys, be faithful, stand firm.\"\u00a0 And what we're talking about here is really parents who represent what's right, teach what's right, continue to teach what's right, don't quit, persevere, and I think you guys have done a great job this week of really encouraging us to be transparent, to be honest, and to also instruct our kids. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tMike, Jody, thanks for your ministry and just all you do.\u00a0 I appreciate you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mike:<\/strong> Dennis, thank you so much for your ministry, and it's just been a joy to see the Lord use you as well, and we're just glad to be with you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jody:<\/strong> Thank you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Well, and we hope that folks who need help will come to our website at FamilyLife.com.\u00a0 Click on the right side of the home page where it says \"Today's Broadcast.\"\u00a0 That will take you to an area of the site where there is a link to your website, and there is also more information about the workbook that you've created called \"The Way of Purity,\" and that material is also available online on your website, if folks would like to go through the 60-day course that you take folks through that's the path from bondage to freedom.\u00a0 They can get the workbook from us, or they can get the material from your website.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd if they're serious about this and want to maintain purity, we've talked about this whole issue of accountability being so key to this \u2013 we would encourage them to consider using a tool like the Covenant Eyes program.\u00a0 This is way where you and an accountability partner can share with one another each week the websites you've been looking at.\u00a0 In fact, there is an automatic e-mail that goes out each week that tells your accountability partner where you've been on the Web, and you find out where he has been on the Web, and the two of you can be praying for one another, can be holding each other accountable, can be challenging each other to be men of purity.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAgain, all the details about Covenant Eyes are on our website at FamilyLife.com.\u00a0 Click on the right side of the home page where it says \"Today's Broadcast,\" and you'll find the information you need there.\u00a0 Or you can call us at 1-800-FLTODAY, 1-800-358-6329, that's 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY.\u00a0 Someone on our team will make arrangements to get the resources you need sent out to you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhen you get in touch with us, can I encourage you to consider making a donation to the ministry of FamilyLife Today?\u00a0 Your donations are what keep us on the air in this city and in other cities all across the country.\u00a0 So we appreciate your financial support of this ministry, and this month when you make a donation of any amount, there's a book we'd love to send you.\u00a0 It's a prayer guide for parents called \"While They Were Sleeping.\" \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThis is a book that gives you specific character qualities to be praying for as your children are growing and, in fact, purity is one of those character qualities that's highlighted in this book, and we need to be faithful, as parents, to pray for these things with our children.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou can request a copy of the book when you make a donation online at FamilyLife.com, and if you do that, when you come to the keycode box on the donation form, just type in the word \"sleep\" or call 1-800-FLTODAY, make a donation over the phone and just request a copy of the book, \"While They Were Sleeping,\" or the prayer guide for parents and, again, we're happy to send it out to you.\u00a0 We so much appreciate your partnership with us financially, and it's always a joy to hear from you.\u00a0 So thanks for getting in touch.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, tomorrow, Kurt and Olivia Bruner are going to join us.\u00a0 We're going to talk about fun things that families can do that will also help your children grow in their faith.\u00a0 We've got some recipes for you tomorrow, and I hope you'll tune in.\u00a0 I think you'll enjoy them.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team.\u00a0 On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine.\u00a0 We'll see you again tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tFamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas \u2013 help for today; hope for tomorrow.\u00a0\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t_______________________________________________________________\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts for you. However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright \u00a9 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>www.FamilyLife.com<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>","theme_header_position":"","post_header_is_sticky":"","is_header_overlay":""},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/301710","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/91"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=301710"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/294104"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=301710"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=301710"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=301710"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=301710"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=301710"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=301710"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}