{"id":301709,"date":"2008-11-04T12:00:00","date_gmt":"2008-11-04T17:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/shedding-light-on-the-darkness\/"},"modified":"2008-11-04T12:00:00","modified_gmt":"2008-11-04T17:00:00","slug":"shedding-light-on-the-darkness","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/shedding-light-on-the-darkness\/","title":{"rendered":"Shedding Light on the Darkness"},"content":{"rendered":"","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Jody\u2019s suspicions became a reality when she discovered her husband\u2019s pornography.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2008-11-04.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:","filesize":"12.11M","filesize_raw":"12698718","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2844],"tags":[4129,2989,2320,2991],"podcast_series":[7615],"cwp_profile":[9149],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-301709","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-pornography","tag-homosexuality","tag-pornography","tag-purity","tag-sex","podcast_series-setting-captives-free","cwp_profile-mike-cleveland","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/301709\/shedding-light-on-the-darkness","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/301709\/shedding-light-on-the-darkness","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"Mvz9ba5Fat\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/shedding-light-on-the-darkness\/\">Shedding Light on the Darkness<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/shedding-light-on-the-darkness\/embed\/#?secret=Mvz9ba5Fat\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Shedding Light on the Darkness&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"Mvz9ba5Fat\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2008-11-04.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2008-11-04.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Romans, chapter 1, describes the progressive nature of sin, the descent from one kind of sin to another deeper, darker kind of sin.\u00a0 Mike Cleveland experienced that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mike:<\/strong> The involvement in pornography led to adultery because that's what you begin dwelling on, and so I was involved in immorality and adultery for many years.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Mike's wife, Jody, was stunned when she learned her husband had been with other women.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t[musical transition] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jody:<\/strong> In fact, I actually spoke with one because there were some odd phone calls, and I was, like, \"Who are these people?\"\u00a0 So I called, and I actually heard the woman on the other line.\u00a0 I hung up immediately, I was so terrified, and that sort of made it real to me.\u00a0 There were other real people, and it was devastating.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t[musical transition] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> This is FamilyLife Today for Tuesday, November 4th.\u00a0 Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.\u00a0 We hope you will get out and vote today.\u00a0 We also hope you'll stay tuned as we hear how Mike Cleveland hit bottom in his struggle with sexual sin and found hope.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us.\u00a0 You know, as you and I have had the opportunity to talk with many men at Weekend to Remember Marriage Conferences around the country, we have found that the issue of pornography, particularly, has been a source of bondage for a lot of men and a huge issue in marriages all around the country.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThere are guys who realize they've got a problem, but have not been able to get free from the snare of this kind of behavior.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And, Bob, it's now not just the men who are being ensnared.\u00a0 The other half of the population are being ensnared as well by social websites, social networking, and striking up relationships where they get the same adrenalin rush that a man gets by visiting a pornographic site.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd this has now become a universal problem in our culture in marriages and families that must be addressed, and it needs to be addressed from a biblical perspective, and I am grateful for Mike Cleveland and for his ministry, and I just want to thank you, Mike, for coming back on our broadcast and sharing more about your story.\u00a0 I want to welcome you FamilyLife Today again and just thank you for your ministry.\u00a0 Thanks for joining us.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mike:<\/strong> Thank you, it's so good to be with you and I so enjoy sharing the grace of God, and I know that's what we'll talk about in this session.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> If you missed what we've already talked about this week, Mike has shared a compelling story of how pornography and chat rooms and affairs and infidelity destroyed one marriage that involved two children and nearly destroyed a second marriage in the process, and the deceit and the deception around pornography \u2013 well, it pushed him to the brink, to the brink of destruction of his own life, and it's just a great story because it's a story of redemption.\u00a0 So much so that Mike is now the president and founder of Setting Captives Free, which is a ministry both in literature and online that has courses that help people who have addictions get free of those addictions, and Mike and his wife, Jody, have six children.\u00a0 He's a pastor, he's an author, an airline pilot \u2013 Mike, you're pretty busy.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mike:<\/strong> Not busy enough to come see you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> But you've got a great story, and earlier this week we talked about how you were at that point of despair, and something clicked and began to turn your life around.\u00a0 What took place?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mike:<\/strong> Well, it was about a year into my second marriage, and we were having the same kinds of problems, of course, because the same sin was in that marriage as in the first.\u00a0 And so my wife, Jody, began looking for help, and she somehow came across a book called \"The Excellent Wife\" by Martha Peace, and she read that book, felt that Martha understood, could offer some hope, and she wrote to Martha Peace.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe didn't expect to get an answer back, but we did, and Martha Peace suggested that we go see a counselor, and that we looked and there was one right there in Medina, Ohio, where we lived.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Now, you were aware of the fact that she was writing to somebody looking for help.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mike:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Did you want help?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mike:<\/strong> Yes, yes.\u00a0 I had actually been to various counselors, various psychologists; I'd tried the tips and the gimmicks that they would give you; I had tried to put a rubber band on your wrist, and any time you are tempted, snap that rubber band, and you'll begin to associate temptation and pain, and you won't do this anymore.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI tried their various gimmicks and things like that \u2013 the regressive method and so many different ways I'd tried to get help in the past, and nothing worked.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> When Jody confronted you with her awareness of what you were into, was that a tearful evening?\u00a0 Was that an angry evening?\u00a0 Do you remember when she blew the whistle on you?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mike:<\/strong> I do, although it runs together.\u00a0 There were probably not maybe one even but a series of a week or two that these issues began to come forth, and I really confessed and shared with her that this was a problem I'd had for 15 years of my life.\u00a0 And those times were times of great shock to her and, really, the light being turned on in my life began to expose what I really was as well.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Tell me this \u2013 how many years into your marriage \u2013 your second marriage \u2013 was this?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mike:<\/strong> One year.\u00a0 One year into the second marriage.\u00a0 We both discovered these things that were in my life; Jody finding pornographic images on the computer and various chat groups that I was involved in, and this was a year into our marriage.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> You know, I have to ask you at this point because for a lot of women, when a husband comes clean, it's like he takes a garbage can \u2026\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mike:<\/strong> Yeah.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2026 you just winced as I said that.\u00a0 You just \u2013 you know what I'm talking about here?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mike:<\/strong> Well, you're dumping on your wife.\u00a0 You're taking all the impurity and throwing it at her.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Yeah, and a man's way of thinking \u2013 I'm going to dump this out on the kitchen table, and my wife is going to be able to see it, process it and flip a switch and move on with me in the next 30 to 45 minutes.\u00a0 That doesn't happen, does it?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mike:<\/strong> No.\u00a0 In fact, that's why she began looking for help, because she realized that this was a big issue, and that it needed to be addressed fully.\u00a0 So, yeah, it was like dumping the garbage can on her.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> You know what?\u00a0 Jody's out there listening to this.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Do you want us to have them bring her in here?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I think I'd like to hear just her perspective of what was taking place at this point.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mike:<\/strong> She's used to it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Is she?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Jody, come on in and have a seat.\u00a0 Thank you for popping in here and sharing with us.\u00a0 When you first found out what your husband was into, what did you feel?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jody:<\/strong> Oh, it was devastating.\u00a0 I was just mostly heartbroken because I loved him so much, and I wanted so much for us to have this beautiful marriage, and we had just had Joshua, so he was only just a few weeks old when I came out and covered the whole story.\u00a0 I was a new mom and very afraid but very much in love and just wanted to fix it.\u00a0 I wanted to find the way out.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Were you angry or hurt?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jody:<\/strong> Yes, but more just so wounded, because I wanted so much \u2013 I loved him so much, and I just wanted to share that with him, and I thought we had such a beautiful thing, and it sort of was like this whole thing has just been a lie, and so there was a lot of doubt and a lot of fear \u2013 more than anger, more of the fear.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And so when he confessed this, actually when you confronted him, right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jody:<\/strong> I did.\u00a0 I was so afraid to do it, but our pastor said that I had to and so, yeah.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And Dennis talked about the feeling of having garbage all dumped over the table as he confessed to things you didn't know anything about.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jody:<\/strong> Right, right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Did you just want to die?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jody:<\/strong> Well, in many respects I did, but before Mike and I married, I was a registered nurse, and I worked in a neonatal intensive care unit, so I was used to death and dying and sickness and those types of things, and, to me, this was just another form of something that needed to be dealt with, and I knew that if there is a sin problem, there is always a biblical solution, there had to be, because I was raised that way.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut I didn't have it in my heart yet at this point.\u00a0 But I knew there was something out there, and I wanted to find it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> You're speaking of Christ.\u00a0 You didn't have a relationship with Christ yet.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jody:<\/strong> I knew about Him.\u00a0 I had a lot of head knowledge, but no personal relationship at that time.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> So take us to the room or was it the kitchen?\u00a0 Where did he confess this to you?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jody:<\/strong> Oh, well, I'm trying to remember.\u00a0 It was so many years ago, but now I think we were in the living room when it kind of all came out because I was looking at his computer, I was working something on his computer and kind of uncovered a lot of things, and then just sort of brought it up to him and said, \"Hey, what's going on?\"\u00a0 And then it kind of, it was like taking your finger out of the dam, and the whole thing just broke loose.\u00a0 And it was so relieving to him \u2013 very burdensome to me, but very relieving to him.\u00a0 You could see the weight just come off.\u00a0 It was amazing.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> You know, you used two words that I don't want our listeners to miss here because it will help men understand what they are feeling right now but also potentially what their wives will feel \u2013 relieving to Mike but burdensome to you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jody:<\/strong> Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> What is cleansing to him becomes \u2026\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mike:<\/strong> Defiling.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Yeah, I mean, of the worst kind.\u00a0 So did you think about leaving him at that point?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jody:<\/strong> I did not.\u00a0 You know, oddly enough, pornography was not something that I ever viewed as a child, but I knew it was out there.\u00a0 My cousins and uncles and things like that, and I had seen it around their houses and stuff, so I knew it was out there, and I really just thought it was a man problem.\u00a0 And I was, like, there's got to be a solution for this.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo I probably wasn't \u2013 my response probably wasn't as shocking as maybe someone who lived a more sheltered life.\u00a0 But it was distressing.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And you were aware that night that it wasn't just viewing pornography but there had been other women?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jody:<\/strong> Yes, in fact, I actually spoke with one because of some odd phone calls, and I was, like, \"Who are these people?\"\u00a0 So I called, and I actually heard the woman on the other line, and I hung up immediately, I was so terrified.\u00a0 And that sort of made it real to me.\u00a0 There were other real people, and it was devastating.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> For a wife to hear that her husband has been looking at pornography on the Internet, that's devastating \u2026\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jody:<\/strong> It can be.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> But when it moves beyond that to involve adultery, that's even more crushing, isn't it?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jody:<\/strong> It is, definitely.\u00a0 Because now you are dealing with an actual, physical, and the Scriptures deal with it in a different way as well.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> So, Mike, was it Jody who said, \"We've got to get help,\" and you said, \"I'm ready?\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mike:<\/strong> Yes, it was.\u00a0 She had discovered \"The Excellent Wife\" book and had read through that, and she contacted Martha Peace, the author, and Martha and, I believe, her husband, Sanford, wrote back to us and suggested that we go to a National Association Nouthetic counselor, and so we had never heard of them, didn't know if there would be any, but there was one right in Medina, Ohio, where we lived.\u00a0 And I was ready at that point, I truly was ready.\u00a0 I was all done with my life of deception, and I saw \u2013 especially, I think, looking at Jody and the pain \u2013 it wasn't so much anger with her, as she described, it was more hurt.\u00a0 Her heart was torn up and, I tell you, that tore me up because I saw the pain that my life had brought to this lady that I truly loved, and at that point it was, \"Yes, let's go, let's get help.\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd so we began at that point, went in to see the counselor, and this was different than any other type of help I'd ever tried to get.\u00a0 This was, \"Let's open our Bible and pray,\" and I thought, \"Well, that's religion, you know, what do we need with that?\u00a0 I need help with my problem.\"\u00a0 And, you know, and yet that was exactly what I needed.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd the counselor brought forward the Gospel.\u00a0 He brought me to the cross of Jesus Christ, and as I began to see that cross and the blood that was shed for me and the death that Christ died on my behalf, it became very real, it became like I was viewing the death of the Son of God for my sin, and I remember kneeling at the foot of that cross and just having wave after wave of forgiveness wash over me and cleansing come over me, and it was like I stood up a new person.\u00a0 Like, all that had been washed away, like, I had become new, and my slate was clean, and my guilt was gone.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd so that was the experience that happened.\u00a0 I didn't know it at the time, but the Bible describes that as being born again.\u00a0 And so the old is gone, and the new has come.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Was this the first counseling session you had with this counselor?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mike:<\/strong> It was about a month into it, and \u2026\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Okay, and so you'd been unpacking stuff, and the counselor goes to himself or herself, \"I don't think this guy gets it,\" and shared the Gospel with you?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mike:<\/strong> He was sharing the Gospel all the way through because he realized my condition, and far more than I did, and so he was.\u00a0 But he also began to apply the Scriptures practically to me, and that's where I began to discover the how-to as far as getting free from all the impurity.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I wanted to ask you about that because it wasn't just a situation where he shared the Gospel, you were born again, and now you had no struggle anymore with any kind of sexual impurity.\u00a0 The struggle was still there, right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mike:<\/strong> I had the habit of turning to pornography and various other things, and that habit was not broken like that.\u00a0 But what happened is, if you read the rest of Psalm 107, it says, \"Then they cried to the Lord in their trouble, and He saved them from their distress.\u00a0 He brought them out of darkness and the deepest gloom and broke away their chains.\"\u00a0 So now we have the Lord working in our lives, and He is bringing us out of darkness and breaking chains.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat happened is the counselor began to share with me the how-tos of actually getting free from this stuff, and it didn't have anything to do with a rubber band or any drugs or anything like that.\u00a0 It was the actual biblical principles of radical amputation where Jesus said, \"If you're lusting after a woman, pluck out your eye,\" or \"cut of your hand.\"\u00a0 Now, obviously, He's not speaking of physical dismemberment there where you're going to cut off your hand.\u00a0 He's talking about make it impossible to view that anymore.\u00a0 Make it so that you can't gratify your flesh anymore.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo I remember taking the TV out of my hotel room, disconnecting the wires, unplugging it, carrying it down the hall to my co-pilot's room, and as I did that, the maid walks by, and I'm carrying this TV, you know, and I walk by her, and she's thinking I'm stealing the TV.\u00a0 But I got to my co-pilot's room and said, \"Could you please take this for the evening.\"\u00a0 He's, like, \"What?\"\u00a0 And I said, \"Yeah, I can't have this in my room,\" and I went back that night to my hotel room, and I did the victory dance, because I knew I wasn't going to fall that night.\u00a0 I couldn't.\u00a0 I didn't have access to it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd so I began looking at areas in my life where I was falling to this sin, and I began cutting them off and plucking them out and getting rid of them one by one.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Do you still have a laptop that you carry with you?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mike:<\/strong> I gave my laptop to my pastor at that point.\u00a0 The counselor \u2013 it was also the pastor \u2013 I gave my laptop to him.\u00a0 I gave my cell phone away.\u00a0 I began looking at any area that I fell in, and I began to cut it off. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, some people say, \"Well, I'm not struggling with the Internet.\u00a0 Do I have to cut that off?\"\u00a0 No.\u00a0 It's wherever you're falling, wherever you're in bondage to \u2013 that has to be severed.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> But the guy who says, \"Okay, I hear you, but I've got to have the laptop when I get back to the hotel room at night because I've got to use it for work.\"\u00a0 What do you say to him?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mike:<\/strong> Right.\u00a0 And if you will look at what Jesus said \u2013 it is a radical approach to being free from this sin.\u00a0 If you think of cutting your hand off or plucking your eye out, it means that there is going to be some pain involved in this, and wherever somebody will say, \"Oh, I couldn't do that because\" \u2013 that's where you know they're going to continue to stumble.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe second pillar of freedom is radical appropriation so that we replace whatever it was we cut off.\u00a0 So now we begin ingesting the Word of God.\u00a0 We begin to take in the grace of Christ and the Holy Spirit and feed on it, and so we've cut off, radically amputated that which is causing us to stumble.\u00a0 Now we're beginning to appropriate the Word of God, but the third area is radical accountability, because there's times when I think I've cut everything off, and I think I'm appropriating the Word, but I may fall.\u00a0 And so my accountability partner, who became my wife, is able to examine \u2013 is there any area where the enemy is hiding here?\u00a0 Are there any dark corners where he might be lurking? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd so we applied these three principles, and then as our ministry began to develop, certainly, we definitely came out into the light, and our story was put on the Internet, and so there was all kinds of accountability.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut for one year after I began to cut off things, I e-mailed my pastor every day for a year, and said, \"I just want you to know, I'm free today, and I want you to be involved in my life.\u00a0 I care that you know,\" and so I would just e-mail him every day because I didn't feel like, at that point, I could walk on my own two feet.\u00a0 And so that's the accountability part.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> What did this do to your relationships with other pilots in your airline when word starts getting out about, \"Did you hear about Mike Cleveland?\u00a0 Could you believe what's going on with him?\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mike:<\/strong> Yeah, actually, it was a very neat thing that happened.\u00a0 I was so scared, I even told my pastor, \"Hey, I fear what would happen if I took the TV out of my room.\"\u00a0 He said, \"If you're not willing to be embarrassed, you'll never be free.\"\u00a0 And so I said, \"I want freedom.\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo here is what happened \u2013 I took the TV over to my co-pilot \u2013 that was the first night.\u00a0 He kind of looked at me weird and said, \"Okay, sure, I'll take it.\"\u00a0 The next day he said to me, \"Mike, I know why you took the TV out of your room,\" he said, \"and I probably need to do the same thing.\"\u00a0 And it opened up an area of discussion where we began to talk about these things, and I began to discover that just as my life in impurity affected others negatively, so my life in repentance and, with the grace of God, now began to have a good impact.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd it wasn't that I got a reputation for, \"Oh, yeah, he uses that porn thing.\"\u00a0 It was that I began influencing them towards coming to Christ and understanding the issues that they were dealing with, and now we began to talk openly about these things.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Your story, well, it just reminds me of what's been a favorite verse of mine for the past couple of years \u2013 Romans, chapter 1, verse 21 \u2013 \"Do not be overcome by evil but overcome evil with good.\"\u00a0 There are some listeners right now who need to overcome evil with good.\u00a0 In fact, they know what they need to do.\u00a0 They don't need us to tell them.\u00a0 They've listened to you talk about these pillars.\u00a0 They know they need to repent, they know they need to get in the Scriptures, and they know they need to be accountable and come out of the dark.\u00a0 Just do it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDo not be overcome by evil but overcome evil with good.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yeah, and since the year 2000, Mike, that's what you've been trying to help people do with your website, which is Setting Captives Free.\u00a0 We've got a link on our website at FamilyLife.com to your website, and if folks would like more information about what's available from your ministry, they can come to FamilyLife.com and follow the link.\u00a0 They can also find information about the Way of Purity workbook that you've created that takes men on a step-by-step journey from bondage to freedom, the same path that you followed and that we've talked about here today.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe workbook is on our website at FamilyLife.com along with additional resources designed to help a husband and wife win this battle and keep their marriage strong and keep it together.\u00a0 In fact, one of the resources we've heard about recently is the Covenant Eyes Program where a man can have an accountability partner, and each week the two of you get a copy of where the other person has been on the Web so somebody knows what you're up to.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd somebody can come back around and be praying for you and be challenging you, be encouraging you to do what's right and to stay away from what's wrong.\u00a0 And if you'd like more information about Covenant Eyes, that's on our website, too.\u00a0 Go to FamilyLife.com, on the right side of the home page, you'll see a box that says \"Today's Broadcast.\"\u00a0 Click where it says \"Learn More.\"\u00a0 That will take you to an area of the site where there is information about all of these resources.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAgain, it's FamilyLife.com, click on the right side of the screen where it says \"Today's Broadcast,\" or call us at 1-800-FLTODAY, 1-800-358-6329, that's 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY, and when you get in touch with us, someone on our team will let you know how you can get the resources you need send to you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt occurs to me that this kind of an issue is becoming an issue at a much younger and younger age, and that's one of the reasons why, as parents, we have to be on the alert, we have to be paying attention to what our children are doing, and we have to be praying for them, because we can't always be around and watching everything that they're into.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tFamilyLife has created a book for parents to help you pray specifically for character qualities, to be a part of your child's life as your child is growing.\u00a0 The book is called, \"While They Were Sleeping,\" and it outlines 12 different character qualities, and over the course of 12 weeks you pray each week for one of these qualities to be molded into a child's life and heart.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe'd love to send this book to you as a thank you gift this month when you make a donation to help support the ministry of FamilyLife Today.\u00a0 We are listener-supported, so those donations are what keep us on the air in this city and in other cities all across the country.\u00a0 We do appreciate your support.\u00a0 If you're making a donation online, and you'd like a copy of the prayer guide for parents, \"While They Were Sleeping,\" just type the word \"sleep\" into the keycode box on the donation from, or call 1-800-FLTODAY, 1-800-358-6329.\u00a0 You can make a donation over the phone and just mention that you'd like the prayer guide, or the book, \"While They Were Sleeping\" and, again, we're happy to send it out to you.\u00a0 We so much appreciate your financial support of this ministry.\u00a0 It's always great to hear from you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTomorrow we're going to talk about how a husband and wife can work together to rescue a marriage that has been rocked by sexual sin, and I hope you can be with us for that.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team.\u00a0 On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine.\u00a0 We'll see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tFamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas \u2013 help for today; hope for tomorrow.\u00a0\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t_______________________________________________________________\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you.\u00a0 However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website.\u00a0 If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would\u00a0\u00a0 you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/site\/c.dnJHKLNnFoG\/b.3782043\/k.384D\/Support_Us.htm\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright \u00a9 FamilyLife.\u00a0 All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/www.FamilyLife.com\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 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suspicions became a reality when she discovered her husband\u2019s pornography.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2008-11-04.pdf","transcript_content":"<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\u00ad\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Romans, chapter 1, describes the progressive nature of sin, the descent from one kind of sin to another deeper, darker kind of sin.\u00a0 Mike Cleveland experienced that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mike:<\/strong> The involvement in pornography led to adultery because that's what you begin dwelling on, and so I was involved in immorality and adultery for many years.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Mike's wife, Jody, was stunned when she learned her husband had been with other women.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t[musical transition] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jody:<\/strong> In fact, I actually spoke with one because there were some odd phone calls, and I was, like, \"Who are these people?\"\u00a0 So I called, and I actually heard the woman on the other line.\u00a0 I hung up immediately, I was so terrified, and that sort of made it real to me.\u00a0 There were other real people, and it was devastating.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t[musical transition] \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> This is FamilyLife Today for Tuesday, November 4th.\u00a0 Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.\u00a0 We hope you will get out and vote today.\u00a0 We also hope you'll stay tuned as we hear how Mike Cleveland hit bottom in his struggle with sexual sin and found hope.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us.\u00a0 You know, as you and I have had the opportunity to talk with many men at Weekend to Remember Marriage Conferences around the country, we have found that the issue of pornography, particularly, has been a source of bondage for a lot of men and a huge issue in marriages all around the country.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThere are guys who realize they've got a problem, but have not been able to get free from the snare of this kind of behavior.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And, Bob, it's now not just the men who are being ensnared.\u00a0 The other half of the population are being ensnared as well by social websites, social networking, and striking up relationships where they get the same adrenalin rush that a man gets by visiting a pornographic site.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd this has now become a universal problem in our culture in marriages and families that must be addressed, and it needs to be addressed from a biblical perspective, and I am grateful for Mike Cleveland and for his ministry, and I just want to thank you, Mike, for coming back on our broadcast and sharing more about your story.\u00a0 I want to welcome you FamilyLife Today again and just thank you for your ministry.\u00a0 Thanks for joining us.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mike:<\/strong> Thank you, it's so good to be with you and I so enjoy sharing the grace of God, and I know that's what we'll talk about in this session.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> If you missed what we've already talked about this week, Mike has shared a compelling story of how pornography and chat rooms and affairs and infidelity destroyed one marriage that involved two children and nearly destroyed a second marriage in the process, and the deceit and the deception around pornography \u2013 well, it pushed him to the brink, to the brink of destruction of his own life, and it's just a great story because it's a story of redemption.\u00a0 So much so that Mike is now the president and founder of Setting Captives Free, which is a ministry both in literature and online that has courses that help people who have addictions get free of those addictions, and Mike and his wife, Jody, have six children.\u00a0 He's a pastor, he's an author, an airline pilot \u2013 Mike, you're pretty busy.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mike:<\/strong> Not busy enough to come see you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> But you've got a great story, and earlier this week we talked about how you were at that point of despair, and something clicked and began to turn your life around.\u00a0 What took place?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mike:<\/strong> Well, it was about a year into my second marriage, and we were having the same kinds of problems, of course, because the same sin was in that marriage as in the first.\u00a0 And so my wife, Jody, began looking for help, and she somehow came across a book called \"The Excellent Wife\" by Martha Peace, and she read that book, felt that Martha understood, could offer some hope, and she wrote to Martha Peace.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe didn't expect to get an answer back, but we did, and Martha Peace suggested that we go see a counselor, and that we looked and there was one right there in Medina, Ohio, where we lived.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Now, you were aware of the fact that she was writing to somebody looking for help.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mike:<\/strong> Yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Did you want help?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mike:<\/strong> Yes, yes.\u00a0 I had actually been to various counselors, various psychologists; I'd tried the tips and the gimmicks that they would give you; I had tried to put a rubber band on your wrist, and any time you are tempted, snap that rubber band, and you'll begin to associate temptation and pain, and you won't do this anymore.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI tried their various gimmicks and things like that \u2013 the regressive method and so many different ways I'd tried to get help in the past, and nothing worked.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> When Jody confronted you with her awareness of what you were into, was that a tearful evening?\u00a0 Was that an angry evening?\u00a0 Do you remember when she blew the whistle on you?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mike:<\/strong> I do, although it runs together.\u00a0 There were probably not maybe one even but a series of a week or two that these issues began to come forth, and I really confessed and shared with her that this was a problem I'd had for 15 years of my life.\u00a0 And those times were times of great shock to her and, really, the light being turned on in my life began to expose what I really was as well.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Tell me this \u2013 how many years into your marriage \u2013 your second marriage \u2013 was this?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mike:<\/strong> One year.\u00a0 One year into the second marriage.\u00a0 We both discovered these things that were in my life; Jody finding pornographic images on the computer and various chat groups that I was involved in, and this was a year into our marriage.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> You know, I have to ask you at this point because for a lot of women, when a husband comes clean, it's like he takes a garbage can \u2026\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mike:<\/strong> Yeah.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2026 you just winced as I said that.\u00a0 You just \u2013 you know what I'm talking about here?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mike:<\/strong> Well, you're dumping on your wife.\u00a0 You're taking all the impurity and throwing it at her.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Yeah, and a man's way of thinking \u2013 I'm going to dump this out on the kitchen table, and my wife is going to be able to see it, process it and flip a switch and move on with me in the next 30 to 45 minutes.\u00a0 That doesn't happen, does it?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mike:<\/strong> No.\u00a0 In fact, that's why she began looking for help, because she realized that this was a big issue, and that it needed to be addressed fully.\u00a0 So, yeah, it was like dumping the garbage can on her.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> You know what?\u00a0 Jody's out there listening to this.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Do you want us to have them bring her in here?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I think I'd like to hear just her perspective of what was taking place at this point.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mike:<\/strong> She's used to it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Is she?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Jody, come on in and have a seat.\u00a0 Thank you for popping in here and sharing with us.\u00a0 When you first found out what your husband was into, what did you feel?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jody:<\/strong> Oh, it was devastating.\u00a0 I was just mostly heartbroken because I loved him so much, and I wanted so much for us to have this beautiful marriage, and we had just had Joshua, so he was only just a few weeks old when I came out and covered the whole story.\u00a0 I was a new mom and very afraid but very much in love and just wanted to fix it.\u00a0 I wanted to find the way out.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Were you angry or hurt?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jody:<\/strong> Yes, but more just so wounded, because I wanted so much \u2013 I loved him so much, and I just wanted to share that with him, and I thought we had such a beautiful thing, and it sort of was like this whole thing has just been a lie, and so there was a lot of doubt and a lot of fear \u2013 more than anger, more of the fear.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And so when he confessed this, actually when you confronted him, right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jody:<\/strong> I did.\u00a0 I was so afraid to do it, but our pastor said that I had to and so, yeah.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And Dennis talked about the feeling of having garbage all dumped over the table as he confessed to things you didn't know anything about.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jody:<\/strong> Right, right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Did you just want to die?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jody:<\/strong> Well, in many respects I did, but before Mike and I married, I was a registered nurse, and I worked in a neonatal intensive care unit, so I was used to death and dying and sickness and those types of things, and, to me, this was just another form of something that needed to be dealt with, and I knew that if there is a sin problem, there is always a biblical solution, there had to be, because I was raised that way.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut I didn't have it in my heart yet at this point.\u00a0 But I knew there was something out there, and I wanted to find it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> You're speaking of Christ.\u00a0 You didn't have a relationship with Christ yet.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jody:<\/strong> I knew about Him.\u00a0 I had a lot of head knowledge, but no personal relationship at that time.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> So take us to the room or was it the kitchen?\u00a0 Where did he confess this to you?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jody:<\/strong> Oh, well, I'm trying to remember.\u00a0 It was so many years ago, but now I think we were in the living room when it kind of all came out because I was looking at his computer, I was working something on his computer and kind of uncovered a lot of things, and then just sort of brought it up to him and said, \"Hey, what's going on?\"\u00a0 And then it kind of, it was like taking your finger out of the dam, and the whole thing just broke loose.\u00a0 And it was so relieving to him \u2013 very burdensome to me, but very relieving to him.\u00a0 You could see the weight just come off.\u00a0 It was amazing.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> You know, you used two words that I don't want our listeners to miss here because it will help men understand what they are feeling right now but also potentially what their wives will feel \u2013 relieving to Mike but burdensome to you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jody:<\/strong> Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> What is cleansing to him becomes \u2026\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mike:<\/strong> Defiling.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Yeah, I mean, of the worst kind.\u00a0 So did you think about leaving him at that point?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jody:<\/strong> I did not.\u00a0 You know, oddly enough, pornography was not something that I ever viewed as a child, but I knew it was out there.\u00a0 My cousins and uncles and things like that, and I had seen it around their houses and stuff, so I knew it was out there, and I really just thought it was a man problem.\u00a0 And I was, like, there's got to be a solution for this.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo I probably wasn't \u2013 my response probably wasn't as shocking as maybe someone who lived a more sheltered life.\u00a0 But it was distressing.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And you were aware that night that it wasn't just viewing pornography but there had been other women?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jody:<\/strong> Yes, in fact, I actually spoke with one because of some odd phone calls, and I was, like, \"Who are these people?\"\u00a0 So I called, and I actually heard the woman on the other line, and I hung up immediately, I was so terrified.\u00a0 And that sort of made it real to me.\u00a0 There were other real people, and it was devastating.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> For a wife to hear that her husband has been looking at pornography on the Internet, that's devastating \u2026\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jody:<\/strong> It can be.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> But when it moves beyond that to involve adultery, that's even more crushing, isn't it?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Jody:<\/strong> It is, definitely.\u00a0 Because now you are dealing with an actual, physical, and the Scriptures deal with it in a different way as well.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> So, Mike, was it Jody who said, \"We've got to get help,\" and you said, \"I'm ready?\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mike:<\/strong> Yes, it was.\u00a0 She had discovered \"The Excellent Wife\" book and had read through that, and she contacted Martha Peace, the author, and Martha and, I believe, her husband, Sanford, wrote back to us and suggested that we go to a National Association Nouthetic counselor, and so we had never heard of them, didn't know if there would be any, but there was one right in Medina, Ohio, where we lived.\u00a0 And I was ready at that point, I truly was ready.\u00a0 I was all done with my life of deception, and I saw \u2013 especially, I think, looking at Jody and the pain \u2013 it wasn't so much anger with her, as she described, it was more hurt.\u00a0 Her heart was torn up and, I tell you, that tore me up because I saw the pain that my life had brought to this lady that I truly loved, and at that point it was, \"Yes, let's go, let's get help.\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd so we began at that point, went in to see the counselor, and this was different than any other type of help I'd ever tried to get.\u00a0 This was, \"Let's open our Bible and pray,\" and I thought, \"Well, that's religion, you know, what do we need with that?\u00a0 I need help with my problem.\"\u00a0 And, you know, and yet that was exactly what I needed.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd the counselor brought forward the Gospel.\u00a0 He brought me to the cross of Jesus Christ, and as I began to see that cross and the blood that was shed for me and the death that Christ died on my behalf, it became very real, it became like I was viewing the death of the Son of God for my sin, and I remember kneeling at the foot of that cross and just having wave after wave of forgiveness wash over me and cleansing come over me, and it was like I stood up a new person.\u00a0 Like, all that had been washed away, like, I had become new, and my slate was clean, and my guilt was gone.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd so that was the experience that happened.\u00a0 I didn't know it at the time, but the Bible describes that as being born again.\u00a0 And so the old is gone, and the new has come.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Was this the first counseling session you had with this counselor?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mike:<\/strong> It was about a month into it, and \u2026\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Okay, and so you'd been unpacking stuff, and the counselor goes to himself or herself, \"I don't think this guy gets it,\" and shared the Gospel with you?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mike:<\/strong> He was sharing the Gospel all the way through because he realized my condition, and far more than I did, and so he was.\u00a0 But he also began to apply the Scriptures practically to me, and that's where I began to discover the how-to as far as getting free from all the impurity.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I wanted to ask you about that because it wasn't just a situation where he shared the Gospel, you were born again, and now you had no struggle anymore with any kind of sexual impurity.\u00a0 The struggle was still there, right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mike:<\/strong> I had the habit of turning to pornography and various other things, and that habit was not broken like that.\u00a0 But what happened is, if you read the rest of Psalm 107, it says, \"Then they cried to the Lord in their trouble, and He saved them from their distress.\u00a0 He brought them out of darkness and the deepest gloom and broke away their chains.\"\u00a0 So now we have the Lord working in our lives, and He is bringing us out of darkness and breaking chains.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat happened is the counselor began to share with me the how-tos of actually getting free from this stuff, and it didn't have anything to do with a rubber band or any drugs or anything like that.\u00a0 It was the actual biblical principles of radical amputation where Jesus said, \"If you're lusting after a woman, pluck out your eye,\" or \"cut of your hand.\"\u00a0 Now, obviously, He's not speaking of physical dismemberment there where you're going to cut off your hand.\u00a0 He's talking about make it impossible to view that anymore.\u00a0 Make it so that you can't gratify your flesh anymore.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo I remember taking the TV out of my hotel room, disconnecting the wires, unplugging it, carrying it down the hall to my co-pilot's room, and as I did that, the maid walks by, and I'm carrying this TV, you know, and I walk by her, and she's thinking I'm stealing the TV.\u00a0 But I got to my co-pilot's room and said, \"Could you please take this for the evening.\"\u00a0 He's, like, \"What?\"\u00a0 And I said, \"Yeah, I can't have this in my room,\" and I went back that night to my hotel room, and I did the victory dance, because I knew I wasn't going to fall that night.\u00a0 I couldn't.\u00a0 I didn't have access to it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd so I began looking at areas in my life where I was falling to this sin, and I began cutting them off and plucking them out and getting rid of them one by one.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Do you still have a laptop that you carry with you?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mike:<\/strong> I gave my laptop to my pastor at that point.\u00a0 The counselor \u2013 it was also the pastor \u2013 I gave my laptop to him.\u00a0 I gave my cell phone away.\u00a0 I began looking at any area that I fell in, and I began to cut it off. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, some people say, \"Well, I'm not struggling with the Internet.\u00a0 Do I have to cut that off?\"\u00a0 No.\u00a0 It's wherever you're falling, wherever you're in bondage to \u2013 that has to be severed.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> But the guy who says, \"Okay, I hear you, but I've got to have the laptop when I get back to the hotel room at night because I've got to use it for work.\"\u00a0 What do you say to him?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mike:<\/strong> Right.\u00a0 And if you will look at what Jesus said \u2013 it is a radical approach to being free from this sin.\u00a0 If you think of cutting your hand off or plucking your eye out, it means that there is going to be some pain involved in this, and wherever somebody will say, \"Oh, I couldn't do that because\" \u2013 that's where you know they're going to continue to stumble.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe second pillar of freedom is radical appropriation so that we replace whatever it was we cut off.\u00a0 So now we begin ingesting the Word of God.\u00a0 We begin to take in the grace of Christ and the Holy Spirit and feed on it, and so we've cut off, radically amputated that which is causing us to stumble.\u00a0 Now we're beginning to appropriate the Word of God, but the third area is radical accountability, because there's times when I think I've cut everything off, and I think I'm appropriating the Word, but I may fall.\u00a0 And so my accountability partner, who became my wife, is able to examine \u2013 is there any area where the enemy is hiding here?\u00a0 Are there any dark corners where he might be lurking? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd so we applied these three principles, and then as our ministry began to develop, certainly, we definitely came out into the light, and our story was put on the Internet, and so there was all kinds of accountability.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut for one year after I began to cut off things, I e-mailed my pastor every day for a year, and said, \"I just want you to know, I'm free today, and I want you to be involved in my life.\u00a0 I care that you know,\" and so I would just e-mail him every day because I didn't feel like, at that point, I could walk on my own two feet.\u00a0 And so that's the accountability part.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> What did this do to your relationships with other pilots in your airline when word starts getting out about, \"Did you hear about Mike Cleveland?\u00a0 Could you believe what's going on with him?\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mike:<\/strong> Yeah, actually, it was a very neat thing that happened.\u00a0 I was so scared, I even told my pastor, \"Hey, I fear what would happen if I took the TV out of my room.\"\u00a0 He said, \"If you're not willing to be embarrassed, you'll never be free.\"\u00a0 And so I said, \"I want freedom.\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo here is what happened \u2013 I took the TV over to my co-pilot \u2013 that was the first night.\u00a0 He kind of looked at me weird and said, \"Okay, sure, I'll take it.\"\u00a0 The next day he said to me, \"Mike, I know why you took the TV out of your room,\" he said, \"and I probably need to do the same thing.\"\u00a0 And it opened up an area of discussion where we began to talk about these things, and I began to discover that just as my life in impurity affected others negatively, so my life in repentance and, with the grace of God, now began to have a good impact.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd it wasn't that I got a reputation for, \"Oh, yeah, he uses that porn thing.\"\u00a0 It was that I began influencing them towards coming to Christ and understanding the issues that they were dealing with, and now we began to talk openly about these things.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Your story, well, it just reminds me of what's been a favorite verse of mine for the past couple of years \u2013 Romans, chapter 1, verse 21 \u2013 \"Do not be overcome by evil but overcome evil with good.\"\u00a0 There are some listeners right now who need to overcome evil with good.\u00a0 In fact, they know what they need to do.\u00a0 They don't need us to tell them.\u00a0 They've listened to you talk about these pillars.\u00a0 They know they need to repent, they know they need to get in the Scriptures, and they know they need to be accountable and come out of the dark.\u00a0 Just do it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDo not be overcome by evil but overcome evil with good.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yeah, and since the year 2000, Mike, that's what you've been trying to help people do with your website, which is Setting Captives Free.\u00a0 We've got a link on our website at FamilyLife.com to your website, and if folks would like more information about what's available from your ministry, they can come to FamilyLife.com and follow the link.\u00a0 They can also find information about the Way of Purity workbook that you've created that takes men on a step-by-step journey from bondage to freedom, the same path that you followed and that we've talked about here today.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe workbook is on our website at FamilyLife.com along with additional resources designed to help a husband and wife win this battle and keep their marriage strong and keep it together.\u00a0 In fact, one of the resources we've heard about recently is the Covenant Eyes Program where a man can have an accountability partner, and each week the two of you get a copy of where the other person has been on the Web so somebody knows what you're up to.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd somebody can come back around and be praying for you and be challenging you, be encouraging you to do what's right and to stay away from what's wrong.\u00a0 And if you'd like more information about Covenant Eyes, that's on our website, too.\u00a0 Go to FamilyLife.com, on the right side of the home page, you'll see a box that says \"Today's Broadcast.\"\u00a0 Click where it says \"Learn More.\"\u00a0 That will take you to an area of the site where there is information about all of these resources.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAgain, it's FamilyLife.com, click on the right side of the screen where it says \"Today's Broadcast,\" or call us at 1-800-FLTODAY, 1-800-358-6329, that's 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY, and when you get in touch with us, someone on our team will let you know how you can get the resources you need send to you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt occurs to me that this kind of an issue is becoming an issue at a much younger and younger age, and that's one of the reasons why, as parents, we have to be on the alert, we have to be paying attention to what our children are doing, and we have to be praying for them, because we can't always be around and watching everything that they're into.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tFamilyLife has created a book for parents to help you pray specifically for character qualities, to be a part of your child's life as your child is growing.\u00a0 The book is called, \"While They Were Sleeping,\" and it outlines 12 different character qualities, and over the course of 12 weeks you pray each week for one of these qualities to be molded into a child's life and heart.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe'd love to send this book to you as a thank you gift this month when you make a donation to help support the ministry of FamilyLife Today.\u00a0 We are listener-supported, so those donations are what keep us on the air in this city and in other cities all across the country.\u00a0 We do appreciate your support.\u00a0 If you're making a donation online, and you'd like a copy of the prayer guide for parents, \"While They Were Sleeping,\" just type the word \"sleep\" into the keycode box on the donation from, or call 1-800-FLTODAY, 1-800-358-6329.\u00a0 You can make a donation over the phone and just mention that you'd like the prayer guide, or the book, \"While They Were Sleeping\" and, again, we're happy to send it out to you.\u00a0 We so much appreciate your financial support of this ministry.\u00a0 It's always great to hear from you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTomorrow we're going to talk about how a husband and wife can work together to rescue a marriage that has been rocked by sexual sin, and I hope you can be with us for that.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team.\u00a0 On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine.\u00a0 We'll see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tFamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas \u2013 help for today; hope for tomorrow.\u00a0\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t_______________________________________________________________\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you.\u00a0 However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website.\u00a0 If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would\u00a0\u00a0 you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/site\/c.dnJHKLNnFoG\/b.3782043\/k.384D\/Support_Us.htm\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright \u00a9 FamilyLife.\u00a0 All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/www.FamilyLife.com\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 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