{"id":301625,"date":"2008-07-15T11:00:00","date_gmt":"2008-07-15T15:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/spiritual-issues-surrounding-contraception\/"},"modified":"2008-07-15T11:00:00","modified_gmt":"2008-07-15T15:00:00","slug":"spiritual-issues-surrounding-contraception","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/spiritual-issues-surrounding-contraception\/","title":{"rendered":"Spiritual Issues Surrounding Contraception"},"content":{"rendered":"","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Today on the broadcast, Dennis Rainey talks with Dr. Bill Cutrer, an OB-GYN and Professor of Christian Ministry at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, KY, and Dr. Mark Povich, an advocate of Natural Family Planning who practices family medicine in Michigan, about the spiritual issues men and women need to consider when choosing a birth control method.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2008-07-15.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:","filesize":"12.25M","filesize_raw":"12847470","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2833,2808],"tags":[5007],"podcast_series":[7595],"cwp_profile":[9133,9134],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-301625","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-godly-legacy","category-newlyweds","tag-birth-control","podcast_series-a-biblical-approach-to-family-planning","cwp_profile-bill-cutrer","cwp_profile-dr-mark-povich","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/301625\/spiritual-issues-surrounding-contraception","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/301625\/spiritual-issues-surrounding-contraception","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"RU2ATkIn9J\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/spiritual-issues-surrounding-contraception\/\">Spiritual Issues Surrounding Contraception<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/spiritual-issues-surrounding-contraception\/embed\/#?secret=RU2ATkIn9J\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Spiritual Issues Surrounding Contraception&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"RU2ATkIn9J\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2008-07-15.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2008-07-15.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Dr. Bill Cutrer spent a number of years practicing obstetrics and had the opportunity to tell many couples the good news that they were expecting a baby.\u00a0 But some of those couples didn't see the good news as good news.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bill:<\/strong> Unfortunately, we live in a culture that has made children more of a burden and interfering with what our normal plans would be as we view our lives.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Woman:<\/strong> Hey, baby.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Man:<\/strong> Hey, wazzup?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Woman:<\/strong> How ya doin'?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Man:<\/strong> Great.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Woman:<\/strong> I need to talk to you for a minute.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Man:<\/strong> What have you got to talk to me about?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Woman:<\/strong> Well, I went to the doctor today.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Man:<\/strong> Mm-hm.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Woman:<\/strong> And I didn't have good news.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Man:<\/strong> Oh, what are you talking about?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Woman:<\/strong> Well, we will be expecting a little one.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bill:<\/strong> We see marriage as fulfilling us when, in fact, I'm not certain, at all, that's what God had intended in the covenant.\u00a0 The relationship is one of sacrifice and other-seeking, and children are often, naturally, if I may use that term, the outpouring, or the fruit, of such a relationship.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Man:<\/strong> Are you serious?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Woman:<\/strong> I'm real serious.\u00a0 I hope you're not upset.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Man:<\/strong> Oh! I'm so happy.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> This is FamilyLife Today for Tuesday, July 15th.\u00a0 Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.\u00a0 Before you think too long about the number of children you'd like to have, you need to make sure you're thinking correctly about the whole subject of children.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us on the Tuesday edition.\u00a0 What we're talking about this week is \u2013 well, it's a little controversial, and you're sure you want to open this can of worms, right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Well, the Bible begins with this subject.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I guess that's true, yeah, it is.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Let me just read it \u2013 Genesis, chapter 1, verse 28 \u2013 \"And God blessed them, and God said to them, 'Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it and rule over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the sky, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.'\"\u00a0 God gave man a command.\u00a0 He commanded us to multiply and not just multiply children but multiply a godly legacy, and you know, you've read the e-mails.\u00a0 One of the hot subjects that our listening audience wants us to deal with is the subject of our approach to babies, birth control, and contraception.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> My wife said, before we came in here today, she said, \"Please don't call it birth control.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Okay, I'll stop.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> That was quick.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I'll stop.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> She has this philosophical orientation, and I understand that only one person really controls birth.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Yeah, really.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And that's God.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> That's a good point.\u00a0 You know, Mary Ann, she's \u2026\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> She can come up with them.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I'm telling you, more often than not, too.\u00a0 I've got some disclaimers, but before I get to the disclaimers, I've got to make just one solid statement that is not a disclaimer, it's just a reality.\u00a0 We are unashamedly pro-life, period.\u00a0 Our approach to this subject is going to be from the standpoint that life begins at that point of conception when the sperm and the egg meet, and as we approach this subject that truth, that reality, is going to impact what we share with our listening audience.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut we're going to challenge you \u2013 here is the point of these next few broadcasts.\u00a0 I want to challenge you to prayerfully think through what you believe about the subject of contraception.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Mm-hm, there are certainly practical ramifications of the decisions that couples are going to wrestle with on any side of this, and that's why we want to look at what the Scriptures do say to help guide couples into the best decision-making process they can make.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And to do that, today we are actually going to talk about the process of deciding what you believe about contraception \u2013 whether you believe in it or not and how you're going to live according to the assumptions and the beliefs that you embrace.\u00a0 And, to do that, we've got a pair of doctors here with us in the studio \u2013 Dr. Bill Cutrer joins us.\u00a0 Bill has been a guest on FamilyLife Today before.\u00a0 He and his wife live in Louisville \u2013 did I pronounce that right, Bill?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bill:<\/strong> Yes, you did.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> He is a professor at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary there in Louisville, and he is a former OB doctor who is now an ordained minister teaching in seminary.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bill:<\/strong> Correct.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Now, that is a load.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bill:<\/strong> Well, thank you for inviting me.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You must have liked school a lot, huh?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bill:<\/strong> Loved school, couldn't get away from it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> How many years have you been in school, Bill?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bill:<\/strong> Well, it took seven through seminary, and it took a good bit through med school and OB-GYN training.\u00a0 So longer than I'd like to admit.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Add them all up, how many?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bill:<\/strong> I don't know.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Thirty?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bill:<\/strong> A good part of my life has been spent in school, yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Also joining us is Dr. Mark Povich.\u00a0 Dr. Povich is from the Upper Peninsula of Michigan, where he practices family medicine and lives, along with his wife and nine \u2013 nine children.\u00a0 What are the ages?\u00a0 Don't give us every age, but the span.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mark:<\/strong> I couldn't give you the birth dates if you asked me.\u00a0 My oldest is 22, and my youngest is 3.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> That's a good span, yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> That is a good span.\u00a0 Well, we're thrilled that you could join us as well.\u00a0 Dr. Cutrer, I want to ask you the first question.\u00a0 Where do we start when we come to this subject of what we're going to believe and the convictions we are going to hold about contraception?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bill:<\/strong> Well, I think you already started by reading from the Book of Genesis, but let me tell you where I started in counseling practice.\u00a0 I'd often have the engaged couple come and sit \u2013 I'd make them face back-to-back, and then ask them to raise the number of fingers for the number of children they thought they wanted to have.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> So neither one can see what the other \u2026\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bill:<\/strong> They couldn't see what the other was doing, and they never had the same one.\u00a0 So this gave us an opportunity to recognize that here they were planning to marry, and they hadn't even discussed a very important part \u2013 it is part of marriage, and I think we need to begin by understanding what marriage is, what it's for, and then sexuality \u2013 what its purpose is.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd you read from Genesis 1:28, that command, as you said, and you have to begin there.\u00a0 Is that a moral imperative?\u00a0 Is it a duty to procreate?\u00a0 Or, as some hold, is it more of a blessing that couples do have some decision-making ability?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I guess that's a first, kind of, fundamental decision that couples have to make.\u00a0 I have some friends who have, through their marriage, chosen to be childless \u2013 not because of any fertility issues but because that's been their choice.\u00a0 And we've gone back and forth on this issue as to whether the Scriptures allow them that option.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou read Genesis 1:28, and it doesn't sound like God is making space in there for couples to say, \"You know, if you decide you don't want to have kids, that's okay with me.\"\u00a0 It sounds like He's saying, \"This is a responsibility, this is a part of what marriage is supposed to be.\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bill:<\/strong> Perhaps.\u00a0 I certainly think that Scripture would indicate a couple needs to be open to the possibility of children.\u00a0 But you'll find two verses before that one that the same moral imperative is given to the fish and the fowls to be fruitful and multiply, and it isn't until Chapter 2 when we get the more details parts of men and women and living together, and childbearing isn't even mentioned there.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo is it a moral imperative, or is it a blessing?\u00a0 Is it an area of life where couples have some choice as whether they choose to marry, when they choose whether to have sex, can they choose to space their family?\u00a0 Can they choose, as much as one can choose, because God is the Author of life, and in my infertility practice, just because someone chooses to have children doesn't necessarily mean that they will have children.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Dr. Povich, you have nine children.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mark:<\/strong> That's correct.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> You came to your own conclusion, both as a man but also as a physician.\u00a0 What was the process that you went through?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mark:<\/strong> When we first got married, my desire as to have two, maybe three, children.\u00a0 I thought that was a nice family size.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Was your wife holding up five fingers on one hand and four on the other?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mark:<\/strong> I don't remember that she was doing that.\u00a0 I think she was probably a little more spiritual in all this than I was as far as wanting God to have some say in how many children we had.\u00a0 Over time, we had our two children, then three children, and as time went on, and we were able to think about what does God want with our lives?\u00a0 Are we open to more children?\u00a0 Children kind of grew on us one at a time.\u00a0 It wasn't \u2013 we certainly never started out with nine children.\u00a0 I would have fallen over had that been expressed to me that I would have nine children.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Bob, I don't know about you, but when we got married, I didn't even like kids.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And I think the starting place for most of us tends not to be what does God want for me and my marriage?\u00a0 It tends to be what do I want for me and my marriage?\u00a0 So that whether it's a choice to be childless or a choice to be parents of as many children as God would grant, a lot of folks are starting with the wrong question, I think, Bill, where they are saying, \"What do we want here?\" rather than saying, \"What does God want?\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI go back to my childless friends, and as we've dialoged on this subject, and I've asked them about their choices, we've had to keep coming back to is that what the Lord wants for you or is that what you want for yourself?\u00a0 The whole issue of self \u2013 it's hard to know when we've gotten past that to really get to the mind and heart of God, don't you think?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bill:<\/strong> Oh, I think you're right.\u00a0 We tend to be selfish individuals and, unfortunately, we live in a culture that has made children more of a burden and interfering with what our normal plans would be as we view our lives.\u00a0 We see marriage as fulfilling us when, in fact, I'm not certain, at all, that's what God had intended in the covenant.\u00a0 The relationship is one of sacrifice and other-seeking.\u00a0 A relationship with God first and then a beautiful covenant, intimate relationship, husband and wife, where you grow to know one another in very deep sorts of ways, over time.\u00a0 And children are often, and I think naturally, if I may use that term, the outpouring, or the fruit, of such a relationship.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tFor some, that means quite a number of children.\u00a0 For others, because of genetic or medical problems, they may not be able to have children at all.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I think the first thing that we need to clarify then is we've got to push back and evaluate what's God up to when He gives us children?\u00a0 I believe He is whacking away at our selfishness.\u00a0 I believe He wants to redeem us from our self-absorption and wants to call us to deny ourselves and outlive ourselves by investing in future generations.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut I fear there is a generation of young married couples growing up and getting married today who don't view children like that.\u00a0 They view children as more of a limited commodity, or something that they are going to control, and it's not going to encroach upon my lifestyle all that much, and at the point where it does, well, now, we can't have too many of these.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd I'm not \u2013 by the way, I'm not advocating that everybody have nine children or six children, as Barbara and I do.\u00a0 Bob, you have five \u2013 Bill?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bill:<\/strong> I have three.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I want to throw this out for all of you to offer your opinion on.\u00a0 I read an article not too long ago from a couple who had decided that they were going to not have children in their marriage.\u00a0 That decision, they felt, would enhance their opportunity for ministry.\u00a0 They were both active in outreach through their church and into their community, and they really saw children as something that would inhibit that opportunity for ministry.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo they said, \"We've decided that the thing that we can do that will bring glory to God is to not have children so that we can be more active in ministry.\"\u00a0 Bill, what would you say to them?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bill:<\/strong> Well, I think the norm for marriage is children, but I would never superimpose my understanding on someone's feeling of God's calling, because as we read in Scripture, children are a great blessing, indeed, but we are also called \u2013 you'll find in the New Testament \u2013 called to love one another, to love God, and then to make disciples.\u00a0 So there is a spiritual calling that, for many of us, is experienced through childbearing but, for others, it comes through other kinds of ministry and other kinds of calls.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIn Matthew 19, Jesus speaks about those that are eunuchs born, those that are made eunuchs by men, and then those who choose.\u00a0 But I think that would more likely be the person who has the gift of celibacy and not necessarily in a marriage relationship.\u00a0 So my inclination \u2013 I would be very reluctant to marry a couple who had decided up front not to have children.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Mark, how about you?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mark:<\/strong> I would see \u2013 at least in my experience, children are a huge ministry.\u00a0 I think they're the primary ministry that a wife and a husband have together \u2013 is to raise godly children.\u00a0 And I think other ministries come secondary to that, and I agree with Bill that if a Christian couple is not wanting children, I would question whether they really ought to be getting married, understanding that God's purpose for marriage is to raise children, if He so blesses them.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Mark, you're a family physician.\u00a0 If a young couple walked into your office, and they were thinking through what they were going to embrace in terms of the subject of contraception as a Christian couple, how would you begin to advise them?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mark:<\/strong> Before you can discuss contraception, I think you need to have an understanding of what a woman's cycle is, how things are functioning in her body in regard to her fertility, and then what impacts any method would have on those particular cycles.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> So you're saying you'd start from some basic biology, not assuming that a woman who has maybe been experiencing a cycle for five or six years, understands what's going on in the midst of that?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mark:<\/strong> I think most women don't have a good understanding at all of how their cycles work and what's happening in the course of their cycle.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And why would you start there and not more \u2013 maybe more anchored from a biblical standpoint of this subject and discussion?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mark:<\/strong> Because an understanding of the mechanisms of the cycles is crucial in choosing what type of method they might want to use to plan their family; because there are the potential for moral implications in different methods of family planning.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> So you're going to explain, then, some of the aspect of the ovulation and how, at that point, if it meets a sperm, it becomes a living person at that point, right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mark:<\/strong> That's a very critical thing to know.\u00a0 There's \u2013 you may know that in our society there is a movement that's been around for a while to define pregnancy as the time an egg, a fertilized egg, would implant into the uterus.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAs a Christian, I believe our understanding is that life begins at the time that egg and sperm meet; that that is the critical moment that this new life begins.\u00a0 There's a new creation, there's a new soul there that has an eternal basis to it, and it starts then.\u00a0 And how we choose a method needs to take into account that particular time format.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> We're at a point in this discussion, Dennis, where there's a collision point between what we know from biology and what we know from the pages of Scripture.\u00a0 The issue of the beginning of life is not simply a biological issue.\u00a0 We can know when cells have a life of their own.\u00a0 The question is, when does a soul join the cell, and that's part of what Dr. Povich is talking about here. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tReally, Christians have to wrestle with some of these significant questions because life and truth are about to meet headon.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Bob, you're right, and the Psalmist declared that he was known by God while he was in his mother's womb, and God understood how he had been fashioned at that point.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo you really do have to wrestle through \u2013 when does life begin?\u00a0 It can't be left to the politicians or just to your pastor.\u00a0 This is a personal conclusion that every believer has got to come to.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bill:<\/strong> Yes, and the psalm says that the days were known; that they were ordained for him before there was yet one of them, and I think it's interesting, precisely as Dr. Povich has said, that when the sperm penetrates the egg, until that moment when the chromosomes align and the new individual begins, takes between 12 and 24 hours.\u00a0 So within that first day of that moment, it's beyond our comprehension.\u00a0 The complexity is a beautiful revelation of who God is.\u00a0 You become you, and I totally agree with him that while the Bible doesn't say when the soul enters, I see no other point that we can take it, and I think\u00a0 we should join to recognize life and its value at that moment.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And, Bill, as a Christian grapples with this, he can't help but push back and go, \"It is God who does create life.\u00a0 He is the One who does bring it into being, and yet He has also given us the responsibility of being a part of that process.\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd I'm going to come back to you, Dr. Povich, as a young couple would be sitting in your office, and you then explain the biology of the cycle, where would you go from there?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mark:<\/strong> The next step would be to describe how different methods work interfering with that natural process, which would result in a pregnancy, and helping them to see that some methods may cause them to violate their conscience in their determination of when life might begin.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I just, again, can't help but wonder if we'd been sitting here 150 years ago, back in the mid-1800s, I can't help but wonder what kind of discussion we would be having at this point?\u00a0 If we were talking to a couple of doctors \u2026\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2026 back before ultrasound.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Yeah, and the pictures that we've seen and all that technology has revealed and the knowledge that we have, I can't help but wonder how we'd be thinking about this as a group of Christians.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Well, and, certainly, over the last 40 years culturally, there has been what you could describe as a mega-shift in this area.\u00a0 Beyond the Christian community, the culture has embraced the issue of contraception as a healthy norm, and Christians have not necessarily wrestled to say, \"Now, wait, is that on the heart of God, and how does that interact with the heart of God?\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Bob, I think that is really the key point that I want to challenge today is that we, as believers, I fear, many times, are a lot like cattle or sheep.\u00a0 We get kind of herded into a direction, and we just kind of follow along, not mindlessly, but close to it.\u00a0 I would have to say that was how we got married.\u00a0 We really didn't think through a lot of these issues.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, back when we got married, technologically speaking, we didn't have as many discoveries as we have today, but there was enough thinking and enough spiritual thought that had occurred to that point that there's really no excuse.\u00a0 Barbara and I should have had more profound discussion around these issues and have hammered out what we believe about the subject of contraception.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Well, that's what we're trying to help couples do as we unpack this issue this week, and I know it's what you tried to do, Dr. Cutrer, when you and Sandra Glahn wrote \"The Contraception Guidebook.\"\u00a0 It looks at options, risks, and provides help and answers for Christian couples on this subject so that couples can think and pray and consider and decide what is right for them in this area.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe've got copies of your book in our FamilyLife Resource Center, and if couples are looking for something that will help them have deeper conversations like you talked about, Dennis, they can go to our website, FamilyLife.com.\u00a0 On the right side of the screen, they'll see a box that says \"Today's Broadcast,\" and if you click the button in there that says \"Learn More,\" it will take you to an area of the site where there is more information about the book, \"The Contraception Guidebook.\"\u00a0 There is a link to a list of things that Christians ought to consider as they are making these choices, things that we've already talked about this week, Dennis.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd then there is a link to an article by our friend, Randy Alcorn, on the subject of the birth control pill and not all of our listeners are going to necessarily agree with where Randy lands on that subject, perhaps, but it does give them an opportunity to wrestle through together, how do we want to do this as husband and wife?\u00a0 What choices do we want to make?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAgain, our website is FamilyLife.com.\u00a0 On the right side of the home page, you'll see a box that says \"Today's Broadcast.\"\u00a0 Click where it says \"Learn More,\" and that will take you to the area of the site where you can get more information about these resources or order a copy of Dr. Cutrer's book.\u00a0 You can also order the book by calling us at 1-800-FLTODAY, 1-800-358-6329.\u00a0 That's 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY.\u00a0 When you do get in touch with us, someone will get you the information about how you can have a copy of the book sent to you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe have had a number of our listeners this month who have gotten in touch with us requesting a copy of a CD that we have been making available.\u00a0 This is a conversation that we had not long ago with Nancy Leigh DeMoss about a book she's written called \"Choosing Forgiveness,\" and because that subject is such a vital subject for us, as followers of Jesus, we wanted to make the CD available this month to listeners who contact us and make a donation of any amount for the ministry of FamilyLife Today.\u00a0 And many of you have already done that.\u00a0 We appreciate hearing from you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYour donations actually make it possible for us to be on the air on this station and on other stations all across the country and especially here in the summer months, it is very helpful to hear from our listeners because this is a time of year when traditionally that giving is a little lower than normal.\u00a0 So we want to say thanks to those of you who have already gotten in touch with us, and if you can help support the ministry of FamilyLife Today with a donation of any amount this month, we would love to send you a copy of this helpful CD featuring Nancy Leigh DeMoss. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou can request a copy when you make your donation of any amount online at FamilyLife.com.\u00a0 There is a keycode box on the donation form.\u00a0 Just type in the word \"forgive,\" and we'll know to send you a copy of this CD.\u00a0 Or call and make a donation over the phone \u2013 1-800-FLTODAY is the number.\u00a0 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY, request a copy of the CD from Nancy Leigh DeMoss when you make your donation and let me just say in advance we appreciate your partnership with us and your financial support of this ministry.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWell, tomorrow we're going to continue to look at what the Bible has to say about family planning, birth control, contraception, with our guests Dr. Bill Cutrer and Dr. Mark Povich.\u00a0 I hope you can be back with us as we have that discussion tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team.\u00a0 On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine.\u00a0 We'll see you next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tFamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas \u2013 help for today; hope for tomorrow.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<u>______________________________________________________________<\/u>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts for you. However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright \u00a9 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>www.FamilyLife.com<\/strong>\u00a0\u00a0\n\t\t\t<\/p>"],"_seopress_titles_title":[""],"_seopress_titles_desc":[""],"_seopress_robots_index":[""],"duration":["00:"],"show_notes":[""],"_thumbnail_id":["294104"],"filesize":["12.25M"],"filesize_raw":["12847470"],"_uag_css_file_name":["uag-css-301625.css"],"_uag_js_file_name":["uag-js-301625.js"],"_uag_page_assets":["a:9:{s:3:\"css\";s:82560:\".wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-top svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-top .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-bottom svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-bottom .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: 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on the broadcast, Dennis Rainey talks with Dr. Bill Cutrer, an OB-GYN and Professor of Christian Ministry at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, KY, and Dr. Mark Povich, an advocate of Natural Family Planning who practices family medicine in Michigan, about the spiritual issues men and women need to consider when choosing a&hellip;","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2008-07-15.pdf","transcript_content":"<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Dr. Bill Cutrer spent a number of years practicing obstetrics and had the opportunity to tell many couples the good news that they were expecting a baby.\u00a0 But some of those couples didn't see the good news as good news.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bill:<\/strong> Unfortunately, we live in a culture that has made children more of a burden and interfering with what our normal plans would be as we view our lives.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Woman:<\/strong> Hey, baby.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Man:<\/strong> Hey, wazzup?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Woman:<\/strong> How ya doin'?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Man:<\/strong> Great.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Woman:<\/strong> I need to talk to you for a minute.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Man:<\/strong> What have you got to talk to me about?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Woman:<\/strong> Well, I went to the doctor today.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Man:<\/strong> Mm-hm.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Woman:<\/strong> And I didn't have good news.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Man:<\/strong> Oh, what are you talking about?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Woman:<\/strong> Well, we will be expecting a little one.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bill:<\/strong> We see marriage as fulfilling us when, in fact, I'm not certain, at all, that's what God had intended in the covenant.\u00a0 The relationship is one of sacrifice and other-seeking, and children are often, naturally, if I may use that term, the outpouring, or the fruit, of such a relationship.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Man:<\/strong> Are you serious?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Woman:<\/strong> I'm real serious.\u00a0 I hope you're not upset.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Man:<\/strong> Oh! I'm so happy.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> This is FamilyLife Today for Tuesday, July 15th.\u00a0 Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.\u00a0 Before you think too long about the number of children you'd like to have, you need to make sure you're thinking correctly about the whole subject of children.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us on the Tuesday edition.\u00a0 What we're talking about this week is \u2013 well, it's a little controversial, and you're sure you want to open this can of worms, right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Well, the Bible begins with this subject.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I guess that's true, yeah, it is.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Let me just read it \u2013 Genesis, chapter 1, verse 28 \u2013 \"And God blessed them, and God said to them, 'Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it and rule over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the sky, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.'\"\u00a0 God gave man a command.\u00a0 He commanded us to multiply and not just multiply children but multiply a godly legacy, and you know, you've read the e-mails.\u00a0 One of the hot subjects that our listening audience wants us to deal with is the subject of our approach to babies, birth control, and contraception.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> My wife said, before we came in here today, she said, \"Please don't call it birth control.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Okay, I'll stop.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> That was quick.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I'll stop.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> She has this philosophical orientation, and I understand that only one person really controls birth.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Yeah, really.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And that's God.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> That's a good point.\u00a0 You know, Mary Ann, she's \u2026\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> She can come up with them.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I'm telling you, more often than not, too.\u00a0 I've got some disclaimers, but before I get to the disclaimers, I've got to make just one solid statement that is not a disclaimer, it's just a reality.\u00a0 We are unashamedly pro-life, period.\u00a0 Our approach to this subject is going to be from the standpoint that life begins at that point of conception when the sperm and the egg meet, and as we approach this subject that truth, that reality, is going to impact what we share with our listening audience.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut we're going to challenge you \u2013 here is the point of these next few broadcasts.\u00a0 I want to challenge you to prayerfully think through what you believe about the subject of contraception.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Mm-hm, there are certainly practical ramifications of the decisions that couples are going to wrestle with on any side of this, and that's why we want to look at what the Scriptures do say to help guide couples into the best decision-making process they can make.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And to do that, today we are actually going to talk about the process of deciding what you believe about contraception \u2013 whether you believe in it or not and how you're going to live according to the assumptions and the beliefs that you embrace.\u00a0 And, to do that, we've got a pair of doctors here with us in the studio \u2013 Dr. Bill Cutrer joins us.\u00a0 Bill has been a guest on FamilyLife Today before.\u00a0 He and his wife live in Louisville \u2013 did I pronounce that right, Bill?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bill:<\/strong> Yes, you did.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> He is a professor at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary there in Louisville, and he is a former OB doctor who is now an ordained minister teaching in seminary.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bill:<\/strong> Correct.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Now, that is a load.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bill:<\/strong> Well, thank you for inviting me.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You must have liked school a lot, huh?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bill:<\/strong> Loved school, couldn't get away from it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> How many years have you been in school, Bill?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bill:<\/strong> Well, it took seven through seminary, and it took a good bit through med school and OB-GYN training.\u00a0 So longer than I'd like to admit.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Add them all up, how many?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bill:<\/strong> I don't know.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Thirty?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bill:<\/strong> A good part of my life has been spent in school, yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Also joining us is Dr. Mark Povich.\u00a0 Dr. Povich is from the Upper Peninsula of Michigan, where he practices family medicine and lives, along with his wife and nine \u2013 nine children.\u00a0 What are the ages?\u00a0 Don't give us every age, but the span.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mark:<\/strong> I couldn't give you the birth dates if you asked me.\u00a0 My oldest is 22, and my youngest is 3.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> That's a good span, yes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> That is a good span.\u00a0 Well, we're thrilled that you could join us as well.\u00a0 Dr. Cutrer, I want to ask you the first question.\u00a0 Where do we start when we come to this subject of what we're going to believe and the convictions we are going to hold about contraception?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bill:<\/strong> Well, I think you already started by reading from the Book of Genesis, but let me tell you where I started in counseling practice.\u00a0 I'd often have the engaged couple come and sit \u2013 I'd make them face back-to-back, and then ask them to raise the number of fingers for the number of children they thought they wanted to have.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> So neither one can see what the other \u2026\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bill:<\/strong> They couldn't see what the other was doing, and they never had the same one.\u00a0 So this gave us an opportunity to recognize that here they were planning to marry, and they hadn't even discussed a very important part \u2013 it is part of marriage, and I think we need to begin by understanding what marriage is, what it's for, and then sexuality \u2013 what its purpose is.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd you read from Genesis 1:28, that command, as you said, and you have to begin there.\u00a0 Is that a moral imperative?\u00a0 Is it a duty to procreate?\u00a0 Or, as some hold, is it more of a blessing that couples do have some decision-making ability?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I guess that's a first, kind of, fundamental decision that couples have to make.\u00a0 I have some friends who have, through their marriage, chosen to be childless \u2013 not because of any fertility issues but because that's been their choice.\u00a0 And we've gone back and forth on this issue as to whether the Scriptures allow them that option.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou read Genesis 1:28, and it doesn't sound like God is making space in there for couples to say, \"You know, if you decide you don't want to have kids, that's okay with me.\"\u00a0 It sounds like He's saying, \"This is a responsibility, this is a part of what marriage is supposed to be.\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bill:<\/strong> Perhaps.\u00a0 I certainly think that Scripture would indicate a couple needs to be open to the possibility of children.\u00a0 But you'll find two verses before that one that the same moral imperative is given to the fish and the fowls to be fruitful and multiply, and it isn't until Chapter 2 when we get the more details parts of men and women and living together, and childbearing isn't even mentioned there.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo is it a moral imperative, or is it a blessing?\u00a0 Is it an area of life where couples have some choice as whether they choose to marry, when they choose whether to have sex, can they choose to space their family?\u00a0 Can they choose, as much as one can choose, because God is the Author of life, and in my infertility practice, just because someone chooses to have children doesn't necessarily mean that they will have children.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Dr. Povich, you have nine children.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mark:<\/strong> That's correct.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> You came to your own conclusion, both as a man but also as a physician.\u00a0 What was the process that you went through?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mark:<\/strong> When we first got married, my desire as to have two, maybe three, children.\u00a0 I thought that was a nice family size.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Was your wife holding up five fingers on one hand and four on the other?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mark:<\/strong> I don't remember that she was doing that.\u00a0 I think she was probably a little more spiritual in all this than I was as far as wanting God to have some say in how many children we had.\u00a0 Over time, we had our two children, then three children, and as time went on, and we were able to think about what does God want with our lives?\u00a0 Are we open to more children?\u00a0 Children kind of grew on us one at a time.\u00a0 It wasn't \u2013 we certainly never started out with nine children.\u00a0 I would have fallen over had that been expressed to me that I would have nine children.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Bob, I don't know about you, but when we got married, I didn't even like kids.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And I think the starting place for most of us tends not to be what does God want for me and my marriage?\u00a0 It tends to be what do I want for me and my marriage?\u00a0 So that whether it's a choice to be childless or a choice to be parents of as many children as God would grant, a lot of folks are starting with the wrong question, I think, Bill, where they are saying, \"What do we want here?\" rather than saying, \"What does God want?\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI go back to my childless friends, and as we've dialoged on this subject, and I've asked them about their choices, we've had to keep coming back to is that what the Lord wants for you or is that what you want for yourself?\u00a0 The whole issue of self \u2013 it's hard to know when we've gotten past that to really get to the mind and heart of God, don't you think?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bill:<\/strong> Oh, I think you're right.\u00a0 We tend to be selfish individuals and, unfortunately, we live in a culture that has made children more of a burden and interfering with what our normal plans would be as we view our lives.\u00a0 We see marriage as fulfilling us when, in fact, I'm not certain, at all, that's what God had intended in the covenant.\u00a0 The relationship is one of sacrifice and other-seeking.\u00a0 A relationship with God first and then a beautiful covenant, intimate relationship, husband and wife, where you grow to know one another in very deep sorts of ways, over time.\u00a0 And children are often, and I think naturally, if I may use that term, the outpouring, or the fruit, of such a relationship.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tFor some, that means quite a number of children.\u00a0 For others, because of genetic or medical problems, they may not be able to have children at all.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I think the first thing that we need to clarify then is we've got to push back and evaluate what's God up to when He gives us children?\u00a0 I believe He is whacking away at our selfishness.\u00a0 I believe He wants to redeem us from our self-absorption and wants to call us to deny ourselves and outlive ourselves by investing in future generations.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut I fear there is a generation of young married couples growing up and getting married today who don't view children like that.\u00a0 They view children as more of a limited commodity, or something that they are going to control, and it's not going to encroach upon my lifestyle all that much, and at the point where it does, well, now, we can't have too many of these.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd I'm not \u2013 by the way, I'm not advocating that everybody have nine children or six children, as Barbara and I do.\u00a0 Bob, you have five \u2013 Bill?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bill:<\/strong> I have three.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I want to throw this out for all of you to offer your opinion on.\u00a0 I read an article not too long ago from a couple who had decided that they were going to not have children in their marriage.\u00a0 That decision, they felt, would enhance their opportunity for ministry.\u00a0 They were both active in outreach through their church and into their community, and they really saw children as something that would inhibit that opportunity for ministry.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo they said, \"We've decided that the thing that we can do that will bring glory to God is to not have children so that we can be more active in ministry.\"\u00a0 Bill, what would you say to them?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bill:<\/strong> Well, I think the norm for marriage is children, but I would never superimpose my understanding on someone's feeling of God's calling, because as we read in Scripture, children are a great blessing, indeed, but we are also called \u2013 you'll find in the New Testament \u2013 called to love one another, to love God, and then to make disciples.\u00a0 So there is a spiritual calling that, for many of us, is experienced through childbearing but, for others, it comes through other kinds of ministry and other kinds of calls.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIn Matthew 19, Jesus speaks about those that are eunuchs born, those that are made eunuchs by men, and then those who choose.\u00a0 But I think that would more likely be the person who has the gift of celibacy and not necessarily in a marriage relationship.\u00a0 So my inclination \u2013 I would be very reluctant to marry a couple who had decided up front not to have children.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Mark, how about you?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mark:<\/strong> I would see \u2013 at least in my experience, children are a huge ministry.\u00a0 I think they're the primary ministry that a wife and a husband have together \u2013 is to raise godly children.\u00a0 And I think other ministries come secondary to that, and I agree with Bill that if a Christian couple is not wanting children, I would question whether they really ought to be getting married, understanding that God's purpose for marriage is to raise children, if He so blesses them.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Mark, you're a family physician.\u00a0 If a young couple walked into your office, and they were thinking through what they were going to embrace in terms of the subject of contraception as a Christian couple, how would you begin to advise them?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mark:<\/strong> Before you can discuss contraception, I think you need to have an understanding of what a woman's cycle is, how things are functioning in her body in regard to her fertility, and then what impacts any method would have on those particular cycles.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> So you're saying you'd start from some basic biology, not assuming that a woman who has maybe been experiencing a cycle for five or six years, understands what's going on in the midst of that?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mark:<\/strong> I think most women don't have a good understanding at all of how their cycles work and what's happening in the course of their cycle.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And why would you start there and not more \u2013 maybe more anchored from a biblical standpoint of this subject and discussion?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mark:<\/strong> Because an understanding of the mechanisms of the cycles is crucial in choosing what type of method they might want to use to plan their family; because there are the potential for moral implications in different methods of family planning.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> So you're going to explain, then, some of the aspect of the ovulation and how, at that point, if it meets a sperm, it becomes a living person at that point, right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mark:<\/strong> That's a very critical thing to know.\u00a0 There's \u2013 you may know that in our society there is a movement that's been around for a while to define pregnancy as the time an egg, a fertilized egg, would implant into the uterus.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAs a Christian, I believe our understanding is that life begins at the time that egg and sperm meet; that that is the critical moment that this new life begins.\u00a0 There's a new creation, there's a new soul there that has an eternal basis to it, and it starts then.\u00a0 And how we choose a method needs to take into account that particular time format.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> We're at a point in this discussion, Dennis, where there's a collision point between what we know from biology and what we know from the pages of Scripture.\u00a0 The issue of the beginning of life is not simply a biological issue.\u00a0 We can know when cells have a life of their own.\u00a0 The question is, when does a soul join the cell, and that's part of what Dr. Povich is talking about here. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tReally, Christians have to wrestle with some of these significant questions because life and truth are about to meet headon.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Bob, you're right, and the Psalmist declared that he was known by God while he was in his mother's womb, and God understood how he had been fashioned at that point.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo you really do have to wrestle through \u2013 when does life begin?\u00a0 It can't be left to the politicians or just to your pastor.\u00a0 This is a personal conclusion that every believer has got to come to.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bill:<\/strong> Yes, and the psalm says that the days were known; that they were ordained for him before there was yet one of them, and I think it's interesting, precisely as Dr. Povich has said, that when the sperm penetrates the egg, until that moment when the chromosomes align and the new individual begins, takes between 12 and 24 hours.\u00a0 So within that first day of that moment, it's beyond our comprehension.\u00a0 The complexity is a beautiful revelation of who God is.\u00a0 You become you, and I totally agree with him that while the Bible doesn't say when the soul enters, I see no other point that we can take it, and I think\u00a0 we should join to recognize life and its value at that moment.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And, Bill, as a Christian grapples with this, he can't help but push back and go, \"It is God who does create life.\u00a0 He is the One who does bring it into being, and yet He has also given us the responsibility of being a part of that process.\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd I'm going to come back to you, Dr. Povich, as a young couple would be sitting in your office, and you then explain the biology of the cycle, where would you go from there?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Mark:<\/strong> The next step would be to describe how different methods work interfering with that natural process, which would result in a pregnancy, and helping them to see that some methods may cause them to violate their conscience in their determination of when life might begin.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I just, again, can't help but wonder if we'd been sitting here 150 years ago, back in the mid-1800s, I can't help but wonder what kind of discussion we would be having at this point?\u00a0 If we were talking to a couple of doctors \u2026\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2026 back before ultrasound.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Yeah, and the pictures that we've seen and all that technology has revealed and the knowledge that we have, I can't help but wonder how we'd be thinking about this as a group of Christians.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Well, and, certainly, over the last 40 years culturally, there has been what you could describe as a mega-shift in this area.\u00a0 Beyond the Christian community, the culture has embraced the issue of contraception as a healthy norm, and Christians have not necessarily wrestled to say, \"Now, wait, is that on the heart of God, and how does that interact with the heart of God?\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Bob, I think that is really the key point that I want to challenge today is that we, as believers, I fear, many times, are a lot like cattle or sheep.\u00a0 We get kind of herded into a direction, and we just kind of follow along, not mindlessly, but close to it.\u00a0 I would have to say that was how we got married.\u00a0 We really didn't think through a lot of these issues.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tNow, back when we got married, technologically speaking, we didn't have as many discoveries as we have today, but there was enough thinking and enough spiritual thought that had occurred to that point that there's really no excuse.\u00a0 Barbara and I should have had more profound discussion around these issues and have hammered out what we believe about the subject of contraception.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Well, that's what we're trying to help couples do as we unpack this issue this week, and I know it's what you tried to do, Dr. Cutrer, when you and Sandra Glahn wrote \"The Contraception Guidebook.\"\u00a0 It looks at options, risks, and provides help and answers for Christian couples on this subject so that couples can think and pray and consider and decide what is right for them in this area.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe've got copies of your book in our FamilyLife Resource Center, and if couples are looking for something that will help them have deeper conversations like you talked about, Dennis, they can go to our website, FamilyLife.com.\u00a0 On the right side of the screen, they'll see a box that says \"Today's Broadcast,\" and if you click the button in there that says \"Learn More,\" it will take you to an area of the site where there is more information about the book, \"The Contraception Guidebook.\"\u00a0 There is a link to a list of things that Christians ought to consider as they are making these choices, things that we've already talked about this week, Dennis.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd then there is a link to an article by our friend, Randy Alcorn, on the subject of the birth control pill and not all of our listeners are going to necessarily agree with where Randy lands on that subject, perhaps, but it does give them an opportunity to wrestle through together, how do we want to do this as husband and wife?\u00a0 What choices do we want to make?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAgain, our website is FamilyLife.com.\u00a0 On the right side of the home page, you'll see a box that says \"Today's Broadcast.\"\u00a0 Click where it says \"Learn More,\" and that will take you to the area of the site where you can get more information about these resources or order a copy of Dr. Cutrer's book.\u00a0 You can also order the book by calling us at 1-800-FLTODAY, 1-800-358-6329.\u00a0 That's 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY.\u00a0 When you do get in touch with us, someone will get you the information about how you can have a copy of the book sent to you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe have had a number of our listeners this month who have gotten in touch with us requesting a copy of a CD that we have been making available.\u00a0 This is a conversation that we had not long ago with Nancy Leigh DeMoss about a book she's written called \"Choosing Forgiveness,\" and because that subject is such a vital subject for us, as followers of Jesus, we wanted to make the CD available this month to listeners who contact us and make a donation of any amount for the ministry of FamilyLife Today.\u00a0 And many of you have already done that.\u00a0 We appreciate hearing from you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYour donations actually make it possible for us to be on the air on this station and on other stations all across the country and especially here in the summer months, it is very helpful to hear from our listeners because this is a time of year when traditionally that giving is a little lower than normal.\u00a0 So we want to say thanks to those of you who have already gotten in touch with us, and if you can help support the ministry of FamilyLife Today with a donation of any amount this month, we would love to send you a copy of this helpful CD featuring Nancy Leigh DeMoss. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou can request a copy when you make your donation of any amount online at FamilyLife.com.\u00a0 There is a keycode box on the donation form.\u00a0 Just type in the word \"forgive,\" and we'll know to send you a copy of this CD.\u00a0 Or call and make a donation over the phone \u2013 1-800-FLTODAY is the number.\u00a0 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY, request a copy of the CD from Nancy Leigh DeMoss when you make your donation and let me just say in advance we appreciate your partnership with us and your financial support of this ministry.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWell, tomorrow we're going to continue to look at what the Bible has to say about family planning, birth control, contraception, with our guests Dr. Bill Cutrer and Dr. Mark Povich.\u00a0 I hope you can be back with us as we have that discussion tomorrow.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team.\u00a0 On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine.\u00a0 We'll see you next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tFamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas \u2013 help for today; hope for tomorrow.\u00a0 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However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright \u00a9 FamilyLife. 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