{"id":301302,"date":"2007-02-09T12:00:00","date_gmt":"2007-02-09T17:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/holy-sex\/"},"modified":"2007-02-09T12:00:00","modified_gmt":"2007-02-09T17:00:00","slug":"holy-sex","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/holy-sex\/","title":{"rendered":"Holy Sex?"},"content":{"rendered":"","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>On the broadcast today, Tim Gardner, founding director of The Marriage Institute and author of the book Sacred Sex, tells of the different ways husbands and wives approach the sexual relationship and contrasts that with the way God wants us to view the sexual union in marriage.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2007-02-09.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:","filesize":"10.71M","filesize_raw":"11226892","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2088],"tags":[4066,2991],"podcast_series":[7504],"cwp_profile":[9058],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-301302","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-romance-and-sex","tag-intimacy","tag-sex","podcast_series-sacred-sex","cwp_profile-tim-gardner","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/301302\/holy-sex","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/301302\/holy-sex","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"1Zk7x4yW9w\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/holy-sex\/\">Holy Sex?<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/holy-sex\/embed\/#?secret=1Zk7x4yW9w\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Holy Sex?&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"1Zk7x4yW9w\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2007-02-09.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2007-02-09.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0What is the sign of your marriage covenant with one another?\u00a0 If you answered, \"It's my wedding ring,\" you're only partially right.\u00a0 Here is Tim Gardner.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTim:\u00a0Every covenant made has two parts \u2013 the verbal declaration in our modern wedding ceremony is the vows.\u00a0 Now, what's the oath sign?\u00a0 In God's design and God's plan, the oath sign is sex.\u00a0 That is the sealing of the deal, so to speak.\u00a0 That is the creation of the covenant; that is the oneness.\u00a0 Understanding that God uses sex in such a powerful way to create this oneness relationship is, I think, where we have to begin in our understanding of what was God thinking.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0This is FamilyLife Today for Friday, February 9th.\u00a0 Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.\u00a0 God had a lot more in mind when he designed marital intimacy than most of us have in mind when we experience it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us.\u00a0 You and I have been in situations, Dennis, where we have encouraged couples, in fact, you've led couples in repeating their wedding vows to one another.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0Right, right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0And we've talked about the fact that most of the time couples will say their wedding vows once, and then that's it.\u00a0 You never say them again unless there's some special event that causes you to say them again.\u00a0 And it seems, to us, that repeating our wedding vows is not a bad thing at all.\u00a0 In fact, I've used the illustration of the Pledge of Allegiance and said I've said that more than once about the flag, and I certainly \u2013 I have deeper allegiance to my wife, frankly, than I do to my flag.\u00a0 Is that going to get me in trouble here on FamilyLife Today, do you think?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0No, no, I don't think so.\u00a0 But I think it does make the point well, isn't it interesting that we pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States more often than we pledge allegiance to our spouse?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0Although, as we've already heard this week, there is \u2026\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0There's another way.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0There's another way to restate your vows, isn't there?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0It's called \"Sacred Sex,\" and that's the name of a book by Dr. Tim Gardner.\u00a0 Tim, welcome back to FamilyLife Today.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTim:\u00a0Thank you, it's good to be here again.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0Tim is a speaker, a teacher, an author, a licensed counselor, also the founder and director of The Marriage Institute, and he and his wife, Amy, along with their three children, live in Indiana.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0Tim, you tell a story in your book about a couple by the name of Jake and Karen.\u00a0 Now, I need to be careful with this, because my son-in-law's name is Jake, and this is not about him.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0No, in fact, you use pseudonyms for all the folks in your book, didn't you?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTim:\u00a0And I even used conglomerate couples.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0I just don't want him calling me saying, \"What'd you use my name for on the broadcast?\"\u00a0 But, anyway, Jake and Karen came to you for counsel, and Karen had a complaint that all Jake wanted in their marriage was sex.\u00a0 Now, what was at the root of Karen's discontent of their marital intimacy?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTim:\u00a0Karen's chief complaint was that she had become an object.\u00a0 All her husband wanted was sex from her and didn't really want to do anything else.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0Didn't want any other kind of relationship.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTim:\u00a0And, to him, that was \u2013 he thought he was being kind and loving, but she was simply an object.\u00a0 She was the, as C.S. Lewis used to say, \"the necessary apparatus\" for what the man wanted.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0And you have a diagnosis or a name you give to this dysfunction, right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTim:\u00a0Right.\u00a0 I call it \"HD.\"\u00a0 It's no \"ED\" like we hear about on the commercials all the time, it's \"HD\" which stands for husbandus dysfunctionus.\u00a0 And it's just a husband who doesn't understand the whole picture of his role as a husband and, even more, his role as a lover of his wife.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0Well, let's talk about what that looks like, all right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTim:\u00a0Great.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0Take us to the picture of what Jake needs to understand about a woman first, and then about Karen specifically.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTim:\u00a0Men seem to have this ability.\u00a0 Now, I always caution by saying it's not an excuse because men shouldn't use this as an excuse, but men have a great ability than women to compartmentalize.\u00a0 They can have a horrible day at work and be chewed on by the boss and get caught in traffic on the way home, but they can seem to put all that out of the way to just want to come home and focus on having sex with their wife.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0A woman is much less able to compartmentalize, so if she's had a rough day or connected with her husband, if she feels disconnected to him, they haven't spent any time talking or she doesn't feel that he knows her in her world, what's going on, then she's not real likely to want to have sex, because that comes as a result of being known.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0So this type of husband comes home, and instead of saying \"Honey, how can I help with the kids or dinner or the house,\" he'll pick up the mail, he'll flip on Sports Center, he'll head straight and start checking e-mail, and he'll go through the whole night doing his thing, and then he can't figure out why his wife is not ready to make love to him that night.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0So the dysfunctional husband is one who simply sees his world as the most important piece and doesn't see it as his job to get fully, 100 percent involved in his wife's world.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0Okay, and I just want to stick up for the guys here who are listening and saying, \"Okay, I've heard this, and I've made the switch.\u00a0 You know, Tim, I've decided to be that kind of husband who does come home and help out.\u00a0 I'm tender, and I say the right words, and I do all the right stuff, and I've been doing this for a while now and, you know, I haven't seen a dramatic change in my wife.\u00a0 So I may have had HD.\u00a0 I'm cured, but the situation is still there.\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTim:\u00a0That's a great insight, but, to be honest, most of my experience is when a guy says they've done that, they've done it for two days.\u00a0 They've done it for a day and a half.\u00a0 They haven't done it for this long-term commitment focused on serving their wife.\u00a0 And I guess to take that to the next level of what serving really means \u2013 if I'm doing it because I expect any response out of my wife, that's not service that's manipulation.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0If I'm doing it to really minister to my wife, to really serve her, then the response I'm not as worried about \u2013 or I shouldn't be as worried about.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0And if a wife senses she's being manipulated, that just shuts her down emotionally, physically, all the way around, doesn't it?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTim:\u00a0Absolutely.\u00a0 I mean, a common complaint that you hear from wives is that, \"Okay, my husband does those types of things when he wants sex.\u00a0 I can tell by the way he begins acting when he gets home of taking dishes to the kitchen\" or whatever it might be.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0Now, granted, there are, to take that to the other side of this conversation, there are men who are very servant-focused, whose wives don't respond as well, and then I come back to say, \"Okay, then, we need to have a discussion with the wife to see what her understanding of sexual intimacy really is.\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0Yeah, and I found that interesting in your book.\u00a0 You said that there are two questions a wife needs to answer \u2013 not only what she thinks about sex but also how she thinks about sex.\u00a0 Unpack that a bit, if you would.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTim:\u00a0If sex for her is simply another thing on the to-do list, and it's simply a physical pleasure, then if she comes to the end of the day, and she's tired, and she has a choice between sleeping or sex \u2026\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0\u2026 or another chore, in her mind?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTim:\u00a0Or another chore \u2013 she's like, you know what?\u00a0 Give me the sleep.\u00a0 So if she is approaching it from the \"It is just another thing on my to-do list\" or \"just a physical pleasure that I'm going to have to\" \u2013 even if she's able to respond sexually and enjoy it when she wants to, if it's simply an act or a physical pleasure, she'll let it go.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0The shift goes back to what we've already covered this week, and that's that sexual intimacy is about the creation and re-creation of oneness, the creation and re-creation of the covenant, the saying all over again that \"I would marry you.\"\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0So thinking about sex is something for the \"us,\" for the celebration of the oneness, to honor God, even, will be the thought process that she needs to go through to see it a different way and not just something else on the to-do list.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0So how she thinks about sex and what she thinks about sex then becomes, \"I want to celebrate my marriage with my husband and re-commit our marriage covenant.\u00a0 I want to demonstrate that, and I want to do that on a regular basis.\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTim:\u00a0Absolutely \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0\"I want to say to him, 'I would marry you all over again.'\"\u00a0 That's how she is to think, and that's what she's supposed to think as she approaches this subject.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0You know, as I hear you guys talking about this, I'm thinking about the difference between a chore and a gift.\u00a0 If you're doing a chore for someone, it's drudgery, it's work, it's something you'd rather not do.\u00a0 If you're giving someone a gift, you're kind of excited about the gift, and you want the person to like the gift, and you are doing it because you want to bless this person or honor this person, and I think there may be a lot of wives who are thinking of sex as a chore and not as a gift they can give regularly to their husbands.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTim:\u00a0And to bring in Paul's words, \"God loves a cheerful giver\" where you're not giving grudgingly or under compulsion.\u00a0 And, again, I think that's the factor.\u00a0 If a wife feels that she has to give sex to her husband, like it is a have-to \u2013 it's not something for her to give, it's something that's, in some effects, has been taken from her, then it will not have that spirit that it is supposed to have.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0Women who have experienced sexual abuse of one kind of another in their life, what they have learned is that sex and sexuality is something to be taken from them.\u00a0 They didn't have the power to prevent somebody, they did not give it freely, it was taken from them, and one huge piece of the healing process for somebody that has been sexually abused is to realize that this is a gift that God has given them and given them the ability to freely give.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0It's not just giving sex, it's giving yourself, it's giving everything about you, and there is so much freedom in that.\u00a0 Again, it's where it goes from the have-to to the get-to.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0In your book you mention something that's called \"meta sex.\"\u00a0 Is this the solution to this scenario we're talking about here \u2013 because you describe a fresh way of looking at this whole subject of two becoming one.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTim:\u00a0In the business world, we talk often about meta communication, where that's not just how you communicate, it's what you think about communication, it's what you think the purpose of communication is, and so I started thinking about that in connection to sex \u2013 that we have to realize that everything that wanders through our days and our minds affects what we think about sex or even how we experience sex.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0So meta sex is understanding that what goes on at breakfast affects our sexual intimacy.\u00a0 What I think about sex during the day, what I see during the day, what happened to me 15 years ago, if I haven't dealt with it \u2013 all of that affects sex.\u00a0 So meta sex is realizing that everything I think, do, and respond, everything that I've created in my mind impacts the sexual experience.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0And for you and Amy, as your marriage progressed, there was something taking place in your marriage that was causing her to be able to keep her focus off of marital intimacy and oneness.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTim:\u00a0Yeah, I appreciate you bringing that up, thanks.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0Well, you were the one that wrote about it.\u00a0 That's one of the problems of being \u2026\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0\u2026 with her permission, I might add, right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0Being an author, you know, you tell these stories, and then you're going to be asked about it by some radio interviewer, you know?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTim:\u00a0Out there forever.\u00a0 That's exactly right, and I look back on \u2013 you know, we're getting close to 20 years, and I was a real clod in this whole area for a lot of years \u2013 still a clod in a lot of ways \u2013 but I was fascinated, as wives will think their husbands are, with sex.\u00a0 But learning about it and what was God saying and always reading books on it, and my wife, being much more practical and grounded than me in a lot of ways was always concerned about our finances.\u00a0 She was a schoolteacher, I was a youth minister, so we were always keeping an eye on things.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0So she would say, \"Well, honey, what about the budget and have you \u2013 we need to talk about the budget and what about this?\"\u00a0 And I'd say, \"Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, but let me tell you what I just read about sex.\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0And one day it was the proverbial board between the eyes when she said, \"Honey, I wish you cared about our finances as you do about our sex life.\"\u00a0 And that was the stop-me-in-my-tracks comment of you know what?\u00a0 She's right.\u00a0 She's exactly right.\u00a0 I need to deal with what's important to her, important to our family, but this is an issue that I am ignoring that she is trying to get my attention.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0And what I had to understand was that that was hurting our sex life.\u00a0 That was hurting our intimacy; that was hurting our entire relationship because I was not paying attention to something that was vitally important to her.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0Unless the man listened to your story and have some pride thinking, \"Well, I'm glad I balance my checkbook and my wife knows I'm fully in charge of this area,\" you could pretty much fill in the blank with whatever our wife's needs are at this time.\u00a0 And her needs change, by the way, as you move through the different seasons of life.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0It could be \"You're not paying as much attention to our family,\" \"to the raising of our children,\" \"to me and my needs\" \"to how I need your help around the house,\" \"to spiritual direction of this family.\"\u00a0 You could just keep on adding.\u00a0 The list goes on and on, but the question is for every husband who is listening to our broadcast, what is your wife's greatest need right now from you.\u00a0 How would she answer that?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0You need to get on the phone or send her an e-mail and let her be thinking about it before you pop the question to her tonight and then listen carefully to what she says \u2013 maybe ask her for her top three needs and ask her to prioritize them.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0I have to ask you about another scenario, because, Dennis, it's something you've written about in your book, \"Rekindling the Romance,\" and I know you've seen it, Tim, as you talk with couples.\u00a0 We've been operating on the assumption that this is kind of a one-way scenario; that guys have a higher sexual appetite than women do.\u00a0 Women, for whatever reason, are less interested, and yet you know in this culture there is almost an inverse phenomenon that's beginning to go on.\u00a0 There are wives who are listening going, \"That is not our situation at all.\u00a0 In fact, it's just the opposite.\"\u00a0 What's going on there?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTim:\u00a0Besides the HD I talk about in the book, I also talk about what I called \"CWM,\" and it's not country western music \u2013 I like that, actually.\u00a0 CWM is a critical wife or mom.\u00a0 Complaints are good in marriage.\u00a0 Criticism is something different.\u00a0 Criticism gets at there's something inherently wrong with you, and if a husband feels criticized by his earning potential, it's one thing to complain about his role with the kids, it's another thing to be critical of the way he is interacting with the kids.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0If he feels criticized all the time, where he is not feeling naked and unashamed, because that is a two-way thing, then he will find himself less willing to engage sexually.\u00a0 He may be somebody that is more in tune with the wholeness of his life.\u00a0 I want to make sure I stress \u2013 we talk about that men can be more compartmentalized, but I don't think that's what God wants.\u00a0 God wants us to be as connected with our whole world and sharing our world with our spouse as much as she wants to share hers with us.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0I think we hide behind that.\u00a0 I'll have people come into the counseling office and say, \"You know, my dad didn't share his feelings, and my granddad didn't share his feelings, and I don't share mine,\" and I go \"Great, you're a third-generation cripple.\u00a0 Break that cycle.\u00a0 Your wife wants to know what's going on inside your world.\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0Barbara and I have recently had a conversation just, it seems like, for about the 100th time about the schedule.\u00a0 As you might imagine, our schedules get rather brisk from time to time, and my wife is slower paced than I am.\u00a0 And, I'll tell you, the answer did not come immediately.\u00a0 I had to interact with my wife over and over and over again to begin to really fine-tune this and hear what she was saying, but what you are saying is relevant.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0Our wives need to feel understood, and that doesn't necessarily mean at the point of understanding that you provide a solution to the problem.\u00a0 It just means that you've heard them, and that you are beginning to express concern and affection and love and action that shows her and demonstrates to her, you know what?\u00a0 Your life is important to me, and I do want to serve you, and I do want to love you well.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTim:\u00a0I should not hide behind, \"Honey, that's just the way I am.\"\u00a0 A similar event from our own marriage \u2013 I enjoy public speaking, I get to do quite a bit of it, and I am one of those that usually can walk into a situation having really thought through it just the day or a couple of days before I'm supposed to speak.\u00a0 My wife's not that way at all.\u00a0 She wants to have the whole outline and know everything she is supposed to say weeks ahead of time.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0Well, you see the conflict.\u00a0 It would be urgent for her to sit down and have this conversation three or four weeks away, and I'm going, \"Three or four weeks away?\u00a0 That's an eternity.\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0Exactly.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTim:\u00a0And after we had a number of these, I realized you know what?\u00a0 I may not need that but my wife does, and it is a great service to her to clear the calendar, clear an evening, sit down and say, \"Honey, let's go through this.\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0And not do it begrudgingly.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTim:\u00a0Absolutely \u2013 back to the cheerful giver.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0Tim, what I really appreciate about what you're doing here is you're calling all of us men to truly be better lovers, and you're calling wives to be more intelligent lovers of their husbands as well.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0The marriage relationship is one long process as a man of me learning what it really means to truly love and accept and understand and care for and serve my wife.\u00a0 And I've gone to that school repeatedly.\u00a0 I think the same thing can be true for a woman, and in this area of the marriage relationship it may be that the husband is more interested than the wife but, at that point, she perhaps needs to use this area of her life to get God's perspective of sexual oneness and marital oneness and re-think her own perspective of what she thinks about sex and how she thinks about sex and realize that it is also a call to redemption, too.\u00a0 It's a way to learn how to love an imperfect man.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0And, again, it's back to the lifelong process that marriage is.\u00a0 Where else could this happen but between two people who have forged a covenant, a promise, a pledge to one another \u2013 \"I'm not going anywhere.\u00a0 You're the one for me.\u00a0 I love you, sweetheart, and you know what?\u00a0 I'm glad I get to go through this process with you as a person.\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0You know, I've talked to a lot of guys over the years, and we've talked about their love life and how's your love life, and I've said, \"Look at 1 Corinthians, chapter 13.\u00a0 Go down to verse 4 and start reading where it says love is patient and kind, love does not envy or boast, love is not arrogant.\"\u00a0 I said, \"Just get that far.\u00a0 Now go back up and instead of 'love' just put your name in there.\u00a0 Bob is patient is patient and kind, Bob does not envy or boast, Bob is not arrogant.\"\u00a0 I say, \"I usually have to stop there, you know, because I'm blowing\" \u2013 if I want to be a lover, if I want our love life to flourish, then this needs to be the milieu in which that happens.\u00a0 These things need to be happening.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0Mary Ann needs to be married to somebody who is patient and kind and who does not envy or boast and is not arrogant or rude; does not insist on his own way; is not irritable or resentful; does not rejoice at wrongdoing but rejoices in the truth; who bears all things; believes all things; hopes all things; and endures all things.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0And one who doesn't sit in front of the tube watching \"Game Day\" and \"Sports Center\" and the hunting channel or whatever it is.\u00a0 Are you with me?\u00a0 The one who gets out of the \u2026\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0I wish you hadn't brought that up.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0\u2026 but gets out of that chair and goes in there and turns off the TV and makes a statement and says, \"Sweetheart, how can I serve you tonight?\u00a0 How can I love you?\"\u00a0 Without, back to your point, Tim, without expecting a bonus on the other side of the evening.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0But I wonder how many couples could be honest and transparent enough to have that kind of a conversation, you know?\u00a0 I think there are so many couples who tiptoe or dance around this subject and feel like we can't bring it up without there being hurt feelings or hard feelings, and maybe they need someone who they can sit down with and have an open conversation.\u00a0 Maybe they need to attend a Weekend to Remember where we talk very candidly about this subject and where there's a project that couples can work through.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0In fact, we're kicking off our spring season of Weekend to Remember conferences this evening in cities all across the country in the conferences and continues into June.\u00a0 If you're not currently scheduled to attend one of these conferences, let me encourage you to go online at FamilyLife.com and get more information about the Weekend to Remember, and if you want to find that, go to our website, FamilyLife.com.\u00a0 Click the red button that you see in the middle of the screen that's heart-shaped right now, and that will take you right to a page where there is a link to the Weekend to Remember information.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0There is also information about Tim Gardner's book, \"Sacred Sex,\" and that's something that couples could sit down and read together that might open this subject up for them and make it possible for them to communicate with one another about this admittedly delicate subject for husbands and wives to talk about.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0Again, the title of Tim's book is \"Sacred Sex, a Spiritual Celebration of Oneness in Marriage,\" and we've got it in the FamilyLife Resource Center along with other resources that are available on the subject of romance and passion in marriage.\u00a0 You'll find the information about these resources on our website.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0When you go to FamilyLife.com, and you click the red heart-shaped button that says \"Go,\" that's right in the middle of the screen, that will take you to an area, the site where you'll get more information about what is available from us here at FamilyLife Today related to romance in marriage.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0Let me say a quick word of thanks, if I can, Dennis, to the folks who help support the ministry of FamilyLife Today.\u00a0 I don't know how many of our listeners realize this, but the reason we are on the air today is because we have friends of the ministry who, in the past, have said \"We believe in what you're doing, and we want to support it.\u00a0 We'll make a donation to help keep you on the air in this city and in other cities all across the country.\"\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0In fact, we've got a whole new group of Legacy Partners who have just joined us recently.\u00a0 They support the ministry on a monthly basis.\u00a0 This month when you make a donation of any amount to the ministry of FamilyLife Today, we want to invite you to request a thank you gift.\u00a0 It's a CD that features two messages \u2013 one from C.J. Mahaney, and the other from his wife, Carolyn, both of them talking about romance in marriage, the basics of romance.\u00a0 C.J. helping us as husbands understand how we can do a better job of expressing our love and our care for our wives, and Carolyn helping wives understand how they can affirm their husbands romantically.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0That CD is our thank you gift when you make a donation of any amount to the ministry of FamilyLife Today during the month of February.\u00a0 If you're donating online, as you fill out the donation form, you'll come to a keycode box.\u00a0 If you'd like a copy of the CD I'm talking about, just type the word \"Love\" in that keycode box, and we'll send it out to you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0Or if you call 1-800-FLTODAY to make a donation, mention that you'd like the CD that is the thank you gift this month.\u00a0 They'll know what you're talking about, and we'll get it sent out to you.\u00a0 Again, it's our way of thanking you for your partnership with us here in the ministry of FamilyLife Today.\u00a0 Dennis?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0You know, Bob, it's been good this week to talk about this subject of marital intimacy, and, Tim Gardner, I just want to express my appreciation to you for writing this book, \"Sacred Sex.\"\u00a0 I think you've really brought a unique perspective from the Scriptures around this that has lifted us out of the worldly and put it in the perspective in the spiritual realm where I believe this truly belongs, because sex was really created by God for men and women to enjoy together, and I just want to thank you for being on FamilyLife Today.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTim:\u00a0It's been an honor to be here.\u00a0 Thank you for having me.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0And I want to thank our listeners for being with us this week as well, and I hope you have a great weekend.\u00a0 I hope you and your family are able to worship together this weekend, and I hope you can join us back on Monday when your wife, Barbara, is going to join us, Dennis, and we're going to talk about understanding better a woman's perspective on this subject of romance in marriage.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team.\u00a0 On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine.\u00a0 Have a great weekend.\u00a0 We'll see you Monday for another edition of FamilyLife Today. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t________________________________________________________________\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts for you. However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright \u00a9 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>www.FamilyLife.com<\/strong>\u00a0\n\t\t\t<\/p>"],"_seopress_titles_title":[""],"_seopress_titles_desc":[""],"_seopress_robots_index":[""],"duration":["00:"],"show_notes":[""],"_thumbnail_id":["294104"],"filesize":["10.71M"],"filesize_raw":["11226892"],"_uag_css_file_name":["uag-css-301302.css"],"_uag_js_file_name":["uag-js-301302.js"],"_uag_page_assets":["a:9:{s:3:\"css\";s:82560:\".wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-top svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-top .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-bottom svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-bottom .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f 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the broadcast today, Tim Gardner, founding director of The Marriage Institute and author of the book Sacred Sex, tells of the different ways husbands and wives approach the sexual relationship and contrasts that with the way God wants us to view the sexual union in marriage.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2007-02-09.pdf","transcript_content":"<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0What is the sign of your marriage covenant with one another?\u00a0 If you answered, \"It's my wedding ring,\" you're only partially right.\u00a0 Here is Tim Gardner.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTim:\u00a0Every covenant made has two parts \u2013 the verbal declaration in our modern wedding ceremony is the vows.\u00a0 Now, what's the oath sign?\u00a0 In God's design and God's plan, the oath sign is sex.\u00a0 That is the sealing of the deal, so to speak.\u00a0 That is the creation of the covenant; that is the oneness.\u00a0 Understanding that God uses sex in such a powerful way to create this oneness relationship is, I think, where we have to begin in our understanding of what was God thinking.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0This is FamilyLife Today for Friday, February 9th.\u00a0 Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.\u00a0 God had a lot more in mind when he designed marital intimacy than most of us have in mind when we experience it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us.\u00a0 You and I have been in situations, Dennis, where we have encouraged couples, in fact, you've led couples in repeating their wedding vows to one another.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0Right, right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0And we've talked about the fact that most of the time couples will say their wedding vows once, and then that's it.\u00a0 You never say them again unless there's some special event that causes you to say them again.\u00a0 And it seems, to us, that repeating our wedding vows is not a bad thing at all.\u00a0 In fact, I've used the illustration of the Pledge of Allegiance and said I've said that more than once about the flag, and I certainly \u2013 I have deeper allegiance to my wife, frankly, than I do to my flag.\u00a0 Is that going to get me in trouble here on FamilyLife Today, do you think?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0No, no, I don't think so.\u00a0 But I think it does make the point well, isn't it interesting that we pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States more often than we pledge allegiance to our spouse?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0Although, as we've already heard this week, there is \u2026\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0There's another way.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0There's another way to restate your vows, isn't there?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0It's called \"Sacred Sex,\" and that's the name of a book by Dr. Tim Gardner.\u00a0 Tim, welcome back to FamilyLife Today.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTim:\u00a0Thank you, it's good to be here again.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0Tim is a speaker, a teacher, an author, a licensed counselor, also the founder and director of The Marriage Institute, and he and his wife, Amy, along with their three children, live in Indiana.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0Tim, you tell a story in your book about a couple by the name of Jake and Karen.\u00a0 Now, I need to be careful with this, because my son-in-law's name is Jake, and this is not about him.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0No, in fact, you use pseudonyms for all the folks in your book, didn't you?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTim:\u00a0And I even used conglomerate couples.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0I just don't want him calling me saying, \"What'd you use my name for on the broadcast?\"\u00a0 But, anyway, Jake and Karen came to you for counsel, and Karen had a complaint that all Jake wanted in their marriage was sex.\u00a0 Now, what was at the root of Karen's discontent of their marital intimacy?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTim:\u00a0Karen's chief complaint was that she had become an object.\u00a0 All her husband wanted was sex from her and didn't really want to do anything else.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0Didn't want any other kind of relationship.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTim:\u00a0And, to him, that was \u2013 he thought he was being kind and loving, but she was simply an object.\u00a0 She was the, as C.S. Lewis used to say, \"the necessary apparatus\" for what the man wanted.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0And you have a diagnosis or a name you give to this dysfunction, right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTim:\u00a0Right.\u00a0 I call it \"HD.\"\u00a0 It's no \"ED\" like we hear about on the commercials all the time, it's \"HD\" which stands for husbandus dysfunctionus.\u00a0 And it's just a husband who doesn't understand the whole picture of his role as a husband and, even more, his role as a lover of his wife.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0Well, let's talk about what that looks like, all right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTim:\u00a0Great.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0Take us to the picture of what Jake needs to understand about a woman first, and then about Karen specifically.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTim:\u00a0Men seem to have this ability.\u00a0 Now, I always caution by saying it's not an excuse because men shouldn't use this as an excuse, but men have a great ability than women to compartmentalize.\u00a0 They can have a horrible day at work and be chewed on by the boss and get caught in traffic on the way home, but they can seem to put all that out of the way to just want to come home and focus on having sex with their wife.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0A woman is much less able to compartmentalize, so if she's had a rough day or connected with her husband, if she feels disconnected to him, they haven't spent any time talking or she doesn't feel that he knows her in her world, what's going on, then she's not real likely to want to have sex, because that comes as a result of being known.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0So this type of husband comes home, and instead of saying \"Honey, how can I help with the kids or dinner or the house,\" he'll pick up the mail, he'll flip on Sports Center, he'll head straight and start checking e-mail, and he'll go through the whole night doing his thing, and then he can't figure out why his wife is not ready to make love to him that night.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0So the dysfunctional husband is one who simply sees his world as the most important piece and doesn't see it as his job to get fully, 100 percent involved in his wife's world.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0Okay, and I just want to stick up for the guys here who are listening and saying, \"Okay, I've heard this, and I've made the switch.\u00a0 You know, Tim, I've decided to be that kind of husband who does come home and help out.\u00a0 I'm tender, and I say the right words, and I do all the right stuff, and I've been doing this for a while now and, you know, I haven't seen a dramatic change in my wife.\u00a0 So I may have had HD.\u00a0 I'm cured, but the situation is still there.\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTim:\u00a0That's a great insight, but, to be honest, most of my experience is when a guy says they've done that, they've done it for two days.\u00a0 They've done it for a day and a half.\u00a0 They haven't done it for this long-term commitment focused on serving their wife.\u00a0 And I guess to take that to the next level of what serving really means \u2013 if I'm doing it because I expect any response out of my wife, that's not service that's manipulation.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0If I'm doing it to really minister to my wife, to really serve her, then the response I'm not as worried about \u2013 or I shouldn't be as worried about.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0And if a wife senses she's being manipulated, that just shuts her down emotionally, physically, all the way around, doesn't it?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTim:\u00a0Absolutely.\u00a0 I mean, a common complaint that you hear from wives is that, \"Okay, my husband does those types of things when he wants sex.\u00a0 I can tell by the way he begins acting when he gets home of taking dishes to the kitchen\" or whatever it might be.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0Now, granted, there are, to take that to the other side of this conversation, there are men who are very servant-focused, whose wives don't respond as well, and then I come back to say, \"Okay, then, we need to have a discussion with the wife to see what her understanding of sexual intimacy really is.\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0Yeah, and I found that interesting in your book.\u00a0 You said that there are two questions a wife needs to answer \u2013 not only what she thinks about sex but also how she thinks about sex.\u00a0 Unpack that a bit, if you would.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTim:\u00a0If sex for her is simply another thing on the to-do list, and it's simply a physical pleasure, then if she comes to the end of the day, and she's tired, and she has a choice between sleeping or sex \u2026\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0\u2026 or another chore, in her mind?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTim:\u00a0Or another chore \u2013 she's like, you know what?\u00a0 Give me the sleep.\u00a0 So if she is approaching it from the \"It is just another thing on my to-do list\" or \"just a physical pleasure that I'm going to have to\" \u2013 even if she's able to respond sexually and enjoy it when she wants to, if it's simply an act or a physical pleasure, she'll let it go.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0The shift goes back to what we've already covered this week, and that's that sexual intimacy is about the creation and re-creation of oneness, the creation and re-creation of the covenant, the saying all over again that \"I would marry you.\"\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0So thinking about sex is something for the \"us,\" for the celebration of the oneness, to honor God, even, will be the thought process that she needs to go through to see it a different way and not just something else on the to-do list.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0So how she thinks about sex and what she thinks about sex then becomes, \"I want to celebrate my marriage with my husband and re-commit our marriage covenant.\u00a0 I want to demonstrate that, and I want to do that on a regular basis.\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTim:\u00a0Absolutely \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0\"I want to say to him, 'I would marry you all over again.'\"\u00a0 That's how she is to think, and that's what she's supposed to think as she approaches this subject.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0You know, as I hear you guys talking about this, I'm thinking about the difference between a chore and a gift.\u00a0 If you're doing a chore for someone, it's drudgery, it's work, it's something you'd rather not do.\u00a0 If you're giving someone a gift, you're kind of excited about the gift, and you want the person to like the gift, and you are doing it because you want to bless this person or honor this person, and I think there may be a lot of wives who are thinking of sex as a chore and not as a gift they can give regularly to their husbands.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTim:\u00a0And to bring in Paul's words, \"God loves a cheerful giver\" where you're not giving grudgingly or under compulsion.\u00a0 And, again, I think that's the factor.\u00a0 If a wife feels that she has to give sex to her husband, like it is a have-to \u2013 it's not something for her to give, it's something that's, in some effects, has been taken from her, then it will not have that spirit that it is supposed to have.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0Women who have experienced sexual abuse of one kind of another in their life, what they have learned is that sex and sexuality is something to be taken from them.\u00a0 They didn't have the power to prevent somebody, they did not give it freely, it was taken from them, and one huge piece of the healing process for somebody that has been sexually abused is to realize that this is a gift that God has given them and given them the ability to freely give.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0It's not just giving sex, it's giving yourself, it's giving everything about you, and there is so much freedom in that.\u00a0 Again, it's where it goes from the have-to to the get-to.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0In your book you mention something that's called \"meta sex.\"\u00a0 Is this the solution to this scenario we're talking about here \u2013 because you describe a fresh way of looking at this whole subject of two becoming one.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTim:\u00a0In the business world, we talk often about meta communication, where that's not just how you communicate, it's what you think about communication, it's what you think the purpose of communication is, and so I started thinking about that in connection to sex \u2013 that we have to realize that everything that wanders through our days and our minds affects what we think about sex or even how we experience sex.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0So meta sex is understanding that what goes on at breakfast affects our sexual intimacy.\u00a0 What I think about sex during the day, what I see during the day, what happened to me 15 years ago, if I haven't dealt with it \u2013 all of that affects sex.\u00a0 So meta sex is realizing that everything I think, do, and respond, everything that I've created in my mind impacts the sexual experience.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0And for you and Amy, as your marriage progressed, there was something taking place in your marriage that was causing her to be able to keep her focus off of marital intimacy and oneness.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTim:\u00a0Yeah, I appreciate you bringing that up, thanks.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0Well, you were the one that wrote about it.\u00a0 That's one of the problems of being \u2026\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0\u2026 with her permission, I might add, right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0Being an author, you know, you tell these stories, and then you're going to be asked about it by some radio interviewer, you know?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTim:\u00a0Out there forever.\u00a0 That's exactly right, and I look back on \u2013 you know, we're getting close to 20 years, and I was a real clod in this whole area for a lot of years \u2013 still a clod in a lot of ways \u2013 but I was fascinated, as wives will think their husbands are, with sex.\u00a0 But learning about it and what was God saying and always reading books on it, and my wife, being much more practical and grounded than me in a lot of ways was always concerned about our finances.\u00a0 She was a schoolteacher, I was a youth minister, so we were always keeping an eye on things.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0So she would say, \"Well, honey, what about the budget and have you \u2013 we need to talk about the budget and what about this?\"\u00a0 And I'd say, \"Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, but let me tell you what I just read about sex.\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0And one day it was the proverbial board between the eyes when she said, \"Honey, I wish you cared about our finances as you do about our sex life.\"\u00a0 And that was the stop-me-in-my-tracks comment of you know what?\u00a0 She's right.\u00a0 She's exactly right.\u00a0 I need to deal with what's important to her, important to our family, but this is an issue that I am ignoring that she is trying to get my attention.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0And what I had to understand was that that was hurting our sex life.\u00a0 That was hurting our intimacy; that was hurting our entire relationship because I was not paying attention to something that was vitally important to her.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0Unless the man listened to your story and have some pride thinking, \"Well, I'm glad I balance my checkbook and my wife knows I'm fully in charge of this area,\" you could pretty much fill in the blank with whatever our wife's needs are at this time.\u00a0 And her needs change, by the way, as you move through the different seasons of life.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0It could be \"You're not paying as much attention to our family,\" \"to the raising of our children,\" \"to me and my needs\" \"to how I need your help around the house,\" \"to spiritual direction of this family.\"\u00a0 You could just keep on adding.\u00a0 The list goes on and on, but the question is for every husband who is listening to our broadcast, what is your wife's greatest need right now from you.\u00a0 How would she answer that?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0You need to get on the phone or send her an e-mail and let her be thinking about it before you pop the question to her tonight and then listen carefully to what she says \u2013 maybe ask her for her top three needs and ask her to prioritize them.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0I have to ask you about another scenario, because, Dennis, it's something you've written about in your book, \"Rekindling the Romance,\" and I know you've seen it, Tim, as you talk with couples.\u00a0 We've been operating on the assumption that this is kind of a one-way scenario; that guys have a higher sexual appetite than women do.\u00a0 Women, for whatever reason, are less interested, and yet you know in this culture there is almost an inverse phenomenon that's beginning to go on.\u00a0 There are wives who are listening going, \"That is not our situation at all.\u00a0 In fact, it's just the opposite.\"\u00a0 What's going on there?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTim:\u00a0Besides the HD I talk about in the book, I also talk about what I called \"CWM,\" and it's not country western music \u2013 I like that, actually.\u00a0 CWM is a critical wife or mom.\u00a0 Complaints are good in marriage.\u00a0 Criticism is something different.\u00a0 Criticism gets at there's something inherently wrong with you, and if a husband feels criticized by his earning potential, it's one thing to complain about his role with the kids, it's another thing to be critical of the way he is interacting with the kids.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0If he feels criticized all the time, where he is not feeling naked and unashamed, because that is a two-way thing, then he will find himself less willing to engage sexually.\u00a0 He may be somebody that is more in tune with the wholeness of his life.\u00a0 I want to make sure I stress \u2013 we talk about that men can be more compartmentalized, but I don't think that's what God wants.\u00a0 God wants us to be as connected with our whole world and sharing our world with our spouse as much as she wants to share hers with us.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0I think we hide behind that.\u00a0 I'll have people come into the counseling office and say, \"You know, my dad didn't share his feelings, and my granddad didn't share his feelings, and I don't share mine,\" and I go \"Great, you're a third-generation cripple.\u00a0 Break that cycle.\u00a0 Your wife wants to know what's going on inside your world.\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0Barbara and I have recently had a conversation just, it seems like, for about the 100th time about the schedule.\u00a0 As you might imagine, our schedules get rather brisk from time to time, and my wife is slower paced than I am.\u00a0 And, I'll tell you, the answer did not come immediately.\u00a0 I had to interact with my wife over and over and over again to begin to really fine-tune this and hear what she was saying, but what you are saying is relevant.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0Our wives need to feel understood, and that doesn't necessarily mean at the point of understanding that you provide a solution to the problem.\u00a0 It just means that you've heard them, and that you are beginning to express concern and affection and love and action that shows her and demonstrates to her, you know what?\u00a0 Your life is important to me, and I do want to serve you, and I do want to love you well.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTim:\u00a0I should not hide behind, \"Honey, that's just the way I am.\"\u00a0 A similar event from our own marriage \u2013 I enjoy public speaking, I get to do quite a bit of it, and I am one of those that usually can walk into a situation having really thought through it just the day or a couple of days before I'm supposed to speak.\u00a0 My wife's not that way at all.\u00a0 She wants to have the whole outline and know everything she is supposed to say weeks ahead of time.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0Well, you see the conflict.\u00a0 It would be urgent for her to sit down and have this conversation three or four weeks away, and I'm going, \"Three or four weeks away?\u00a0 That's an eternity.\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0Exactly.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTim:\u00a0And after we had a number of these, I realized you know what?\u00a0 I may not need that but my wife does, and it is a great service to her to clear the calendar, clear an evening, sit down and say, \"Honey, let's go through this.\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0And not do it begrudgingly.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTim:\u00a0Absolutely \u2013 back to the cheerful giver.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0Tim, what I really appreciate about what you're doing here is you're calling all of us men to truly be better lovers, and you're calling wives to be more intelligent lovers of their husbands as well.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0The marriage relationship is one long process as a man of me learning what it really means to truly love and accept and understand and care for and serve my wife.\u00a0 And I've gone to that school repeatedly.\u00a0 I think the same thing can be true for a woman, and in this area of the marriage relationship it may be that the husband is more interested than the wife but, at that point, she perhaps needs to use this area of her life to get God's perspective of sexual oneness and marital oneness and re-think her own perspective of what she thinks about sex and how she thinks about sex and realize that it is also a call to redemption, too.\u00a0 It's a way to learn how to love an imperfect man.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0And, again, it's back to the lifelong process that marriage is.\u00a0 Where else could this happen but between two people who have forged a covenant, a promise, a pledge to one another \u2013 \"I'm not going anywhere.\u00a0 You're the one for me.\u00a0 I love you, sweetheart, and you know what?\u00a0 I'm glad I get to go through this process with you as a person.\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0You know, I've talked to a lot of guys over the years, and we've talked about their love life and how's your love life, and I've said, \"Look at 1 Corinthians, chapter 13.\u00a0 Go down to verse 4 and start reading where it says love is patient and kind, love does not envy or boast, love is not arrogant.\"\u00a0 I said, \"Just get that far.\u00a0 Now go back up and instead of 'love' just put your name in there.\u00a0 Bob is patient is patient and kind, Bob does not envy or boast, Bob is not arrogant.\"\u00a0 I say, \"I usually have to stop there, you know, because I'm blowing\" \u2013 if I want to be a lover, if I want our love life to flourish, then this needs to be the milieu in which that happens.\u00a0 These things need to be happening.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0Mary Ann needs to be married to somebody who is patient and kind and who does not envy or boast and is not arrogant or rude; does not insist on his own way; is not irritable or resentful; does not rejoice at wrongdoing but rejoices in the truth; who bears all things; believes all things; hopes all things; and endures all things.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0And one who doesn't sit in front of the tube watching \"Game Day\" and \"Sports Center\" and the hunting channel or whatever it is.\u00a0 Are you with me?\u00a0 The one who gets out of the \u2026\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0I wish you hadn't brought that up.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0\u2026 but gets out of that chair and goes in there and turns off the TV and makes a statement and says, \"Sweetheart, how can I serve you tonight?\u00a0 How can I love you?\"\u00a0 Without, back to your point, Tim, without expecting a bonus on the other side of the evening.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0But I wonder how many couples could be honest and transparent enough to have that kind of a conversation, you know?\u00a0 I think there are so many couples who tiptoe or dance around this subject and feel like we can't bring it up without there being hurt feelings or hard feelings, and maybe they need someone who they can sit down with and have an open conversation.\u00a0 Maybe they need to attend a Weekend to Remember where we talk very candidly about this subject and where there's a project that couples can work through.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0In fact, we're kicking off our spring season of Weekend to Remember conferences this evening in cities all across the country in the conferences and continues into June.\u00a0 If you're not currently scheduled to attend one of these conferences, let me encourage you to go online at FamilyLife.com and get more information about the Weekend to Remember, and if you want to find that, go to our website, FamilyLife.com.\u00a0 Click the red button that you see in the middle of the screen that's heart-shaped right now, and that will take you right to a page where there is a link to the Weekend to Remember information.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0There is also information about Tim Gardner's book, \"Sacred Sex,\" and that's something that couples could sit down and read together that might open this subject up for them and make it possible for them to communicate with one another about this admittedly delicate subject for husbands and wives to talk about.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0Again, the title of Tim's book is \"Sacred Sex, a Spiritual Celebration of Oneness in Marriage,\" and we've got it in the FamilyLife Resource Center along with other resources that are available on the subject of romance and passion in marriage.\u00a0 You'll find the information about these resources on our website.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0When you go to FamilyLife.com, and you click the red heart-shaped button that says \"Go,\" that's right in the middle of the screen, that will take you to an area, the site where you'll get more information about what is available from us here at FamilyLife Today related to romance in marriage.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0Let me say a quick word of thanks, if I can, Dennis, to the folks who help support the ministry of FamilyLife Today.\u00a0 I don't know how many of our listeners realize this, but the reason we are on the air today is because we have friends of the ministry who, in the past, have said \"We believe in what you're doing, and we want to support it.\u00a0 We'll make a donation to help keep you on the air in this city and in other cities all across the country.\"\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0In fact, we've got a whole new group of Legacy Partners who have just joined us recently.\u00a0 They support the ministry on a monthly basis.\u00a0 This month when you make a donation of any amount to the ministry of FamilyLife Today, we want to invite you to request a thank you gift.\u00a0 It's a CD that features two messages \u2013 one from C.J. Mahaney, and the other from his wife, Carolyn, both of them talking about romance in marriage, the basics of romance.\u00a0 C.J. helping us as husbands understand how we can do a better job of expressing our love and our care for our wives, and Carolyn helping wives understand how they can affirm their husbands romantically.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0That CD is our thank you gift when you make a donation of any amount to the ministry of FamilyLife Today during the month of February.\u00a0 If you're donating online, as you fill out the donation form, you'll come to a keycode box.\u00a0 If you'd like a copy of the CD I'm talking about, just type the word \"Love\" in that keycode box, and we'll send it out to you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0Or if you call 1-800-FLTODAY to make a donation, mention that you'd like the CD that is the thank you gift this month.\u00a0 They'll know what you're talking about, and we'll get it sent out to you.\u00a0 Again, it's our way of thanking you for your partnership with us here in the ministry of FamilyLife Today.\u00a0 Dennis?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0You know, Bob, it's been good this week to talk about this subject of marital intimacy, and, Tim Gardner, I just want to express my appreciation to you for writing this book, \"Sacred Sex.\"\u00a0 I think you've really brought a unique perspective from the Scriptures around this that has lifted us out of the worldly and put it in the perspective in the spiritual realm where I believe this truly belongs, because sex was really created by God for men and women to enjoy together, and I just want to thank you for being on FamilyLife Today.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tTim:\u00a0It's been an honor to be here.\u00a0 Thank you for having me.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0And I want to thank our listeners for being with us this week as well, and I hope you have a great weekend.\u00a0 I hope you and your family are able to worship together this weekend, and I hope you can join us back on Monday when your wife, Barbara, is going to join us, Dennis, and we're going to talk about understanding better a woman's perspective on this subject of romance in marriage.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team.\u00a0 On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine.\u00a0 Have a great weekend.\u00a0 We'll see you Monday for another edition of FamilyLife Today. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t________________________________________________________________\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts for you. However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright \u00a9 FamilyLife. 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