{"id":301089,"date":"2006-04-10T11:00:00","date_gmt":"2006-04-10T15:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/fire-testing-from-a-loving-father\/"},"modified":"2024-10-07T22:42:18","modified_gmt":"2024-10-08T02:42:18","slug":"fire-testing-from-a-loving-father","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/fire-testing-from-a-loving-father\/","title":{"rendered":"Fire-Testing from a Loving Father"},"content":{"rendered":"","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Gary Thomas explains the difference between authentic faith and cultural Christianity.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2006-04-10.mp3","podmotor_file_id":"","podmotor_episode_id":"","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:","filesize":"11.41M","filesize_raw":"11961263","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2822],"tags":[4722,4299],"podcast_series":[7445],"cwp_profile":[3158],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-301089","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-growing-in-your-faith","tag-christianity","tag-faith","podcast_series-authentic-faith","cwp_profile-gary-thomas","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/301089\/fire-testing-from-a-loving-father","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/301089\/fire-testing-from-a-loving-father","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"tPqyWvoDbw\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/fire-testing-from-a-loving-father\/\">Fire-Testing from a Loving Father<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/fire-testing-from-a-loving-father\/embed\/#?secret=tPqyWvoDbw\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Fire-Testing from a Loving Father&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"tPqyWvoDbw\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"uagb_featured_image_src":{"full":["https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg",508,508,false]},"uagb_author_info":{"display_name":"kfairris@familylife.com","author_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/author\/kfairrisfamilylife-com\/"},"uagb_comment_info":0,"uagb_excerpt":"Gary Thomas explains the difference between authentic faith and cultural Christianity.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2006-04-10.pdf","transcript_content":"<p>\n\t\t\t\tGary:\u00a0The world is filled with gifted Christian leaders who have the voice, the manner, the force of personality that impress us to no end.\u00a0 But for every thousand of those, there is one who directly communicates the very presence of Jesus so that you're not impressed by them so much as you just felt like you've met your Lord.\u00a0 What do we think the world needs more \u2013 people who translate us into the presence of Jesus Christ or people that just impress us with their manifold gifts?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0This is FamilyLife Today for Monday, April 10th.\u00a0 Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.\u00a0 Today we're going to try to dig past the Christian clutter and understand a little more about authentic faith.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us on the Monday edition.\u00a0 Have you ever been given what you would refer to as a \"severe gift?\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0Mm-hm.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0You don't usually think of gifts as being severe and, certainly, when you open the box and go, \"What kind of gift is this?\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0Some of our listeners, Bob, do not know what a severe gift is.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0Well, that's true.\u00a0 I'm thinking back to a book I read a number of years ago, which was called \"A Severe Mercy,\" and the author of that book talked about the death of his wife being a gift from God for his own spiritual growth.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0And that's what we're talking about when we talk about a \"severe gift.\"\u00a0 I'm just wondering \u2013 with that kind of subject, why do we want to talk about this on the radio?\u00a0 Can't we talk about something happy today?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0Well, I'll tell you why we want to talk about it, because we all receive severe gifts.\u00a0 Many of our listeners right now have either or are about to receive a time of being tested, and our faith if, indeed, it is going to grow, I think must have some fire applied.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0I think of what we talk about at the Weekend to Remember conference \u2013 on the first night we talk about one of the things couples don't do in marriage is they don't anticipate the severe trials that are going to come into every marriage.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0Well, we have someone here who is going to help folks not only anticipate some of those trials, some of those storms, but also equip you to be able to handle it.\u00a0 Gary Thomas joins us again on FamilyLife Today.\u00a0 Gary, you've been on FamilyLife Today a number of times.\u00a0 It's good to welcome back an old friend.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tGary:\u00a0Well, it's a highlight of my life to be here, thank you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0Gary is an author of a number of books, popular books \u2013 \"Sacred Marriage,\" \"Sacred Parenting,\" and a book called \"Authentic Faith,\" which won the Gold Medallion Award, which is \u2013 I want to tell you, they don't pass those out.\u00a0 That's for excellence in writing, and anyone who has ever read any of Gary's work knows he is an excellent writer.\u00a0 He is a speaker, a teacher at Western Seminary, a husband and a father, has three children and lives in the state of Washington, and this book, \"Authentic Faith,\" really does talk about these gifts, Gary.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0I wanted to ask you a question here at the beginning \u2013 what is authentic Christianity?\u00a0 I do a little program called \"Real FamilyLife,\" because I want to talk about authentic FamilyLife, not some kind of pie-in-the-sky, and I think, many times, Christianity, for a lot of folks who go to church, looks like a pie-in-the-sky \u2013 something that's unachievable, unattainable.\u00a0 But I want to know right now, today, what is real Christianity?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tGary:\u00a0It's God working in the soul of a man or woman, conforming them into the image of Jesus Christ.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0You know what?\u00a0 That's simple, but I can understand that, and I'll tell you what else \u2013 I've experienced it.\u00a0 And I think what a lot of people haven't experienced who sit in the church pews of America is they've sat there, and they've nibbled around the edges of real Christianity, but they've never experienced the Lord God Almighty, the Creator of a billion galaxies, they've never experienced His work in their souls.\u00a0 We have a soul.\u00a0 The problem is we don't feed it, we don\u2019t exercise it, we don't see it grow and so, many of us, I think, give up on it.\u00a0 But what you've written about here is you're trying to give us some nourishment for our souls so we can grow in authentic Christianity.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0And when it comes to the care of our souls, there are some things we can do.\u00a0 We can be active in what are commonly referred to as the spiritual disciplines \u2013 fellowship and evangelism and prayer and solitude and all of those things.\u00a0 Those are soul-enriching activities.\u00a0 But in your book, \"Authentic Faith,\" you're talking about the things we can't do \u2013 the severe gifts \u2013 the things that God comes along and does that we sometimes don't like, but it's really part of His design to make us more like Christ.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tGary:\u00a0And for us to cooperate with that, I think we need to improve our hearing, and that's really what led to the idea of authentic faith for me, because my youngest daughter, Kelsey, is a delight to live with.\u00a0 Some years ago I was speaking at a church, and it was a local church that I could drive to, and Kelsey was young enough to where when she'd ask me when I'd be home, instead of giving her a time, I would have to tell her an event.\u00a0 So I told Kelsey, \"Kelsey, I'll be home in time to tuck you in.\"\u00a0 She said, \"Great.\"\u00a0 She was happy I was going to be there to tuck her in.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0And so as I was going home, I realized, looking at my watch, that by the time I got into Bellingham where we live, I wouldn't be home in time to tuck her in, so I called my wife.\u00a0 I said, \"Hey, Elise, please keep Kelsey up a little bit late.\u00a0 I'm going to be about half an hour late.\"\u00a0 And she said, \"Actually, Kelsey is spending the night at her best friend's house.\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0And so I said, \"Well, give me the address.\u00a0 I want to surprise her.\u00a0 I want to go to that house and tuck her in.\"\u00a0 So my wife took care of all that.\u00a0 She called me back, I got the directions.\u00a0 I went straight to the Figgies' [ph] house.\u00a0 They saw me pull up, so they silently opened the door, I didn't have to knock.\u00a0 I walked down the hallway, opened up the door of the room that Kelsey was in, fully expecting to completely surprise her, and she said, \"Hi, Daddy.\"\u00a0 And I said, \"Kelsey, did somebody tell you I was coming here to tuck you in?\"\u00a0 She said, \"No, but I heard your footsteps walking down the hall, and I thought you must have come to tuck me in because I remember you said you were going to do that.\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0And it dawned on me that she'd become so familiar with her father's footsteps that even in a house where she wouldn't expect it at a time when she wouldn't expect it, she heard those footsteps, and she said, \"That's my dad, and he's come here to take care of me.\"\u00a0 And what hit me as I was driving away is I thought, you know, sometimes God's footsteps come in surprising places \u2013 things that we don't expect, things that can seem very severe, and I remember praying, \"Lord, help me to hear Your care in those footsteps to know that even if it's in a hallway that I might not like, the hallway of difficulty, the hallway of suffering, the hallway of persecution, the hallway of sickness, let me know if it's Your footsteps; You're coming here to take care of me and to recognize those footsteps.\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0Jesus said, \"My sheep know me, and they know My voice, and they follow Me.\"\u00a0 And I think it's a tragedy if a Christian, a true follower of Christ doesn't recognize those footsteps and keeps the door shut.\u00a0 Now, you had a friend who not only experienced a severe mercy, but he went through a very, very difficult time where he'd learned what those footsteps sounded like, didn't he?\u00a0 Mike Ditman [ph]?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tGary:\u00a0He did.\u00a0 Mike Ditman is an amazing man.\u00a0 He had a huge impact on me in college.\u00a0 He was one of those guys where \u2013 he just seemed to have everything going for him.\u00a0 He was a great athlete, a great musician, very gifted worship leader, even a gifted teacher in his early 20s.\u00a0 I just remember the way that God used him in my life.\u00a0 In fact, back then, if I was honest, I would have told you I want to be like Mike.\u00a0 That was before the Michael Jordan days.\u00a0 This was \"be like Mike\" meant be like Michael Ditman.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0He was at a church one time, though, and some godly men who cared for Mike pulled him aside, and they said, \"Mike, you're very gifted, you're charismatic, you're dynamic, you're a credible speaker, but you have a tendency to be a little harsh.\u00a0 You're wounding people, you're leaving some victims in your wake.\"\u00a0 And Mike, being a godly man, really considered what they had to say, and it dawned on him that every strength that they mentioned was a human quality, and he found himself praying, \"Lord, I wish I was a little less dynamic and a little more compassionate.\u00a0 I wish I was a little less charismatic and a little more understanding.\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0Those are interesting prayers to pray.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tGary:\u00a0Well, they can be dangerous prayers to pray almost, as Michael found out.\u00a0 It wasn't all that long after that, he was playing basketball in the morning.\u00a0 After the game was over, his body dropped to the floor.\u00a0 A brain aneurysm exploded in his head, and there was an emergency medical technician who was there playing basketball with him that was able to keep him alive, but it was a very different Mike that left the hospital weeks later than the one that dropped onto the floor.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0For starters, part of his face fell.\u00a0 One side was pulled tight, the other one was pushed up, and mouth was moved over, so it isn't fully in the center of his face.\u00a0 So the Hollywood handsome looks were gone.\u00a0 He couldn't play the guitar \u2013 still, to this day, is not able to do that again.\u00a0 And giving up music was a huge sacrifice for him.\u00a0 And even with his speech, he had to go through months of therapy to learn how to talk again, and even now when he gets tired, you can start to hear some of the lisp come back in.\u00a0 In short, he was humbled in about every way it's possible for a young man to be humbled.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0But it's amazing what happened out of that.\u00a0 Going in, everybody thought he would have this dynamic ministry to the crowds and now he's a close personal friend of Larry Crabb, many of the listeners will know, and he's told Larry, he said, \"Look, you go talk to the crowds.\u00a0 God sent me to the individuals,\" and he started a ministry in Philadelphia \u2013 a counseling ministry where he built a counseling department out of nothing at the school where he works, and I was very privileged to get together with Mike a couple of years after the aneurysm had happened, and we got to spend a couple of hours together and just talking with him.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0There was a difference in his ministry that really struck me.\u00a0 I remember calling my wife that night from the hotel room and talking to her, and I said, \"You know, Elise, I remember back when I was in college I'd say \"I want to be like Mike.\"\u00a0 I said, \"But I met with him for a couple of hours tonight, and I left him, and I didn't say I want to be like Mike.\u00a0 My prayer was, 'Lord, I want to be more like Jesus.'\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0And, you know, the world is filled with gifted Christian leaders who have the hair, the voice, the manner, the force of personality that impress us to no end.\u00a0 But for every thousand of those, there is one who directly communicates the very presence of Jesus so that you're not impressed by them so much as you just felt like you've met your Lord.\u00a0 That doesn't come about easily.\u00a0 We have to die for that to happen.\u00a0 In some ways, God has to strip everything away until we can have that one-on-one ministry, and I just challenge people \u2013 what do we think the world needs more \u2013 people who can almost directly translate us into the presence of Jesus Christ or people that just impress us with their manifold gifts?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0You know, I've never forgotten interviewing Chuck Swindoll a number of years ago, and he quoted \u2013 I think it was Tozer he was quoting, who said, \"God does not greatly use the man He does not first greatly wound.\"\u00a0 And we've talked about this before \u2013 when Chuck said that on our program, my immediate reaction was \"Well, then, I don't want to be greatly used.\"\u00a0 I mean, who was saying, \"Lord, greatly wound me.\u00a0 Lord, I want to have happen to me what happened to Mike?\"\u00a0 I mean, that's not \u2013 you're talking about this gift from God in Mike Ditman's life, and all of us are thinking, \"Lord, I hope that never happens to me.\"\u00a0 There is a paradox here \u2013 we do want Christlikeness, but who wants what it sometimes takes?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tGary:\u00a0Bob, I remember when I was a seminary student, I have grown up on the Christian classics, I've loved reading the Christian classics, which are just the great books that people still read, hundreds or even thousands of years after they were written, and I got so into them, I started to read the biographies of the people who wrote these books, and I got scared, literally scared, because there wasn't a single life of theirs that I would want to have \u2013 the illnesses, the persecution, the difficulties they faced, and I could understand when Theresa of Avila, who wrote a classic on prayer called \"The Interior Castle,\" finally prayed one time, she said to the Lord, \"If this is how you treat your friends, it's no wonder you have so many enemies.\"\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0And yet they talked about the precious nature of these wounds.\u00a0 It sounds terrifying before you go into them, but when you go out of them, and you're looking back at what happened, it's amazing how people treasure them, even people who aren't of faith.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0I've always been amazed at Lance Armstrong with the Tour de France.\u00a0 Hearing Lance talk about, of course, going through cancer, and then hearing him say in his book, \"It's Not About the Bike\" \u2013 \"If I had to choose between winning the Tour de France and going through cancer, I'd choose cancer because it taught me so much more.\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0Gary, you know, as you were talking, I was reflecting upon some of the things God's been teaching me, and Bob knows I just recently, in the past few months, got cable.\u00a0 We had chosen, with our children, not to have that as an option.\u00a0 But here is what I've been learning \u2013 all those cable channels \u2013 yeah, there's a few religious broadcasters on there, but the major networks, the place where most of the sheep go, there just isn't any programming that speak to the needs of the soul.\u00a0 They're speaking to the needs of the flesh and the needs of the mind and the needs of the will and people wanting to be God, not recognizing God as God, and I remember flipping through and finally, on one of the major networks, there was a light on a hill, and guess who it was?\u00a0 Billy Graham.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tGary:\u00a0There you go.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0He was stooped over the podium in one of his last crusades, and there he was, speaking faithfully to the needs of the soul.\u00a0 And I think in America today, more than ever, I think we are ignoring the soul.\u00a0 I think we are a nation that has become so preoccupied with our toys, pampering our flesh, all the catalogs that give us options.\u00a0 I mean, we are a nation of enormous prosperity and yet souls that live in poverty.\u00a0 And authentic faith \u2013 what authentic faith is all about is calling an individual \u2013 calling them, \"You know what?\u00a0 There's more to life than just material.\u00a0 There's more to life than just what you see.\u00a0 There's an invisible component of your life that must be fed and cared for, and if you don't address it you're not going to live life on a plane that you were designed by the Lord God Almighty to live.\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0I remember having the thought almost two decades ago \u2013 we'd been having a Bible study in our home, and it just occurred to me as I looked around, I said, \"Probably the greatest thing that could happen today to help purify the church would be for us to go through another economic depression like we went through in the '30s.\"\u00a0 And as soon as I thought that, I thought, \"Oh, Lord, please, no.\"\u00a0 Now, it addresses that tension, Gary, that we talk about \u2013 I want to be like Jesus, but I don't want the chisel, I don't want the hammer, I want to go there gently.\u00a0 Is that possible?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tGary:\u00a0One of the challenges, Bob, that I think we face is that we look at the sacrifice apart from what it gives us.\u00a0 Intimacy with Jesus is real \u2013 soul satisfaction is deep and it's profound.\u00a0 It might not be as loud or as exciting as infatuation and the exhilaration sometimes that the world offers, but you were mentioning Billy Graham.\u00a0 I listen to souls like that, and there is something there.\u00a0 He shot Larry King one time during an interview.\u00a0 I saw him on television, and it's when he was discussing facing Parkinson's disease, and as he's getting older, and Larry King asked him, \"Well, you prayed to be healed haven't you?\"\u00a0 And Billy Graham shocked him by saying, \"No.\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0Now, the Bible tells us we can pray to be healed so, certainly, that's biblical, to pray to be healed but, for whatever reason, Billy Graham said at that point he hasn't.\u00a0 And then Larry followed up by saying, \"Well, you pray not to be in pain, don't you?\"\u00a0 And again Billy shocked him by saying \"No, I pray for God's will, and if He has something else to teach me, I want to learn it.\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0Now, here is a man in his 80s that God has used.\u00a0 Certainly, he would admit he's in the winter of his life, and he's still saying, \"I want to become more like Jesus, and if the lesson has to be painful then bring it on.\"\u00a0 And what that tells me, Bob, is there is something there.\u00a0 He is getting something.\u00a0 He's experiencing an intimacy and a character that he's not comparing the pain to his comfort, he's comparing the pain to what it's giving him in a different light \u2013 to his soul, as Dennis was talking about.\u00a0 It's not just his body, it's doing something to his soul, and he thinks it's a good trade.\u00a0 And so I think we have to look at it that way or we are going to be too afraid.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0But you know what?\u00a0 Whether we're afraid or not, if we love the Lord, it's going to come, because He's going to perfect us.\u00a0 He doesn't have to ask our permission.\u00a0 When we said, \"Lord, you're my Savior,\" we also said, \"You're my Lord,\" and that means he gets to call the shots.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0And when it comes, God gives the grace to walk through it so that it does not destroy you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0That's right, and the Scriptures are the guide as you walk through it.\u00a0 I think we'll let the Apostle Paul summarize what we've been talking about here today.\u00a0 He said this in Romans, chapter 5 \u2013 \"And not only this, we also exult in our tribulations.\"\u00a0 Now, I want to ask you a question.\u00a0 When is the last time you exulted, you rejoiced, you gave thanks in your tribulations?\u00a0 It goes on \u2013 \"Knowing that tribulations bring about perseverance and perseverance proven character and proven character hope, and hope does not disappoint because\" \u2013 and here is what motivated Paul \u2013 \"Because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.\"\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0You and I can ignore the needs of our soul, but there is a God of Heaven who doesn't.\u00a0 He's after us, and the Holy Spirit is chasing us.\u00a0 The question is, will we recognize His footsteps and open the door and let Him come in and minister to us and give us that hope.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0The question is, do we long for the authentic faith that Gary is talking about in his book?\u00a0 Do we really want to be more like Jesus or are we addicted to pleasure, happiness, this life, this world, that we'd rather pursue those things than Christlikeness?\u00a0 And our good and gracious God is going to continue to press us toward what really matters, which is a relationship with Him and a life that is lived for His purposes and for His glory.\u00a0 And I want to encourage our listeners to get a copy of Gary's book.\u00a0 I think they will find it spiritually profitable.\u00a0 The book, again, is called \"Authentic Faith,\" and you ask a provocative question here on the front cover \u2013 \"What if life isn't meant to be perfect but we are meant to trust the One who is?\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0We have copies of the book in our FamilyLife Resource Center, and we would love to get a copy to you.\u00a0 Go to our website, FamilyLife.com.\u00a0 In the middle of the home page, you will see a red button that says \"Go,\" and if you click that red button, it will take you right to the page where you can get more information about Gary's book and other resources we have available to help challenge you in your walk with Christ.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0In fact, we've come across a wonderful book by our friend, Elisabeth Elliot, called \"Faith That Does Not Falter.\"\u00a0 It really reinforces a lot of the themes, Gary, you talk about in your book, \"Authentic Faith,\" and any of our listeners who are interested in getting both of these books together, we'd be happy to send along at no additional cost the CD audio of our conversation this week on this subject.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0Again, go to our website, FamilyLife.com and click that red button that says \"Go\" in the middle of the screen.\u00a0 More information is available there about resources in our FamilyLife Resource Center to help you in this area, or you can call us at 1-800-FLTODAY, that's 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY, and we've got folks on our team who would be happy to let you know how you can have these resources sent to you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0You know, one of the things our family has enjoyed doing during the Easter season is watching movies that remind us of the life, the death, the burial, the Resurrection of Christ \u2013 classic movies like \"Ben Hur,\" and \"Quo Vadis,\" the movie, \"The Robe\" \u2013 those movies were made in the '50s and the '60s, and we've enjoyed watching those.\u00a0 And then more contemporary movies like the Jesus film.\u00a0 I don't know if you're aware, that is the most viewed movie.\u00a0 It has been viewed by more than 5.5 billion people all around the world, and one of the reasons for that is because it's been translated into a number of different languages.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0Recently, our team was thinking about a way that we could say thank you to those of you who are able to help with our financial needs here at FamilyLife by making a donation of any amount, and we decided we would love to send you a DVD that has the Jesus film, and has it with a variety of different languages dubbed in.\u00a0 It has it in English, of course, but also in Spanish and German, Arabic, Korean, Vietnamese, and Tagalog.\u00a0 There is also on the DVD a special feature for children called \"The Story of Jesus for Children,\" and it's designed for elementary-age students.\u00a0 We would love to send this DVD to you, and we'll send it this week when you make a donation of any amount to the ministry of FamilyLife Today.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0If you're donating online, you can simply write the word \"Jesus\" in the keycode box as you fill out the donation form, and we'll know that you'd like to have the DVD sent to you, or if you call 1-800-FLTODAY to make a donation just mention that you'd like the Jesus DVD, and we'll be sure to get that to you and, again, let me say thank you for your ongoing financial support of this ministry.\u00a0 We appreciate your partnership with us.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0Tomorrow we're going to continue to look at how God uses events and circumstances in our life to press us toward an authentic faith.\u00a0 I hope you can be with us for that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team.\u00a0 On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine.\u00a0 We'll see you next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you.\u00a0 However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website.\u00a0 If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/site\/c.dnJHKLNnFoG\/b.3782043\/k.384D\/Support_Us.htm\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright \u00a9 FamilyLife.\u00a0 All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/www.FamilyLife.com\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 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