{"id":301062,"date":"2006-02-22T12:00:00","date_gmt":"2006-02-22T17:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/designing-church-to-appeal-to-men\/"},"modified":"2024-10-07T22:42:15","modified_gmt":"2024-10-08T02:42:15","slug":"designing-church-to-appeal-to-men","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/designing-church-to-appeal-to-men\/","title":{"rendered":"Designing Church to Appeal to Men"},"content":{"rendered":"","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>David Murrow shares some of the reasons men give for not attending church.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2006-02-22.mp3","podmotor_file_id":"","podmotor_episode_id":"","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:","filesize":"11.41M","filesize_raw":"11960451","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2867],"tags":[4369,4299,2916],"podcast_series":[7436],"cwp_profile":[8994],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-301062","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-church-involvement","tag-church","tag-faith","tag-men","podcast_series-why-men-hate-going-to-church","cwp_profile-david-murrow","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/301062\/designing-church-to-appeal-to-men","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/301062\/designing-church-to-appeal-to-men","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"JB0Qgl5jof\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/designing-church-to-appeal-to-men\/\">Designing Church to Appeal to Men<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/designing-church-to-appeal-to-men\/embed\/#?secret=JB0Qgl5jof\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Designing Church to Appeal to Men&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"JB0Qgl5jof\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"uagb_featured_image_src":{"full":["https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg",508,508,false]},"uagb_author_info":{"display_name":"kfairris@familylife.com","author_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/author\/kfairrisfamilylife-com\/"},"uagb_comment_info":0,"uagb_excerpt":"David Murrow shares some of the reasons men give for not attending church.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2006-02-22.pdf","transcript_content":"<p>\n\t\t\t\tDavid:\u00a0When we look for volunteers, we're looking for people to work with children; planning ceremonial gatherings at weddings, funerals; sitting in committee meetings \u2013 really, there's nothing in most churches' ministry opportunities that would get a man out of bed on Sunday morning.\u00a0 We need opportunities for men to win \u2013 pounding nails or doing projects, hanging out with guys, going on adventurous mission trips.\u00a0 The churches that are doing those things with men are experiencing a lot of success in getting them integrated.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0This is FamilyLife Today for Wednesday, February 22nd.\u00a0 Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.\u00a0 Today we've got some strategies for stirring the spiritual passions of men.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us.\u00a0 Can I tell you a church story?\u00a0 This is kind of a fun church story.\u00a0 When Mary Ann and I first started dating, we were in college, and I had grown up in a particular denomination that \u2013 well, it's not known for being really Gospel-centered.\u00a0 And so I said to Mary Ann, \"Let's go to church on Sunday, and she said, \"Okay, where do you want to go?\"\u00a0 And I said, \"We'll go to the little church that's right off the campus,\" that was a part of the denomination I'd grown up in.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0And we wound up at this church, and afterwards I said to her, \"What did you think?\"\u00a0 And she said, \"Well, they didn't talk much about the Bible.\"\u00a0 And I thought, \"Well, no, you don't do that at church, do you?\"\u00a0 I mean, I really did, because I'd grown up in this church, they didn't talk much about the Bible at church.\u00a0 I thought you did that at Young Life or a Campus Crusade meeting.\u00a0 You know, I thought that's where they cracked out the Bible, but at church you were supposed to talk about other things.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0And she said, \"Well, let's go to this other church,\" the next Sunday, and it was funny, because they talked about the Bible at that church, and I found I liked that better than the church where they didn't talk about the Bible.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0And was that church, by any possibility, University Baptist Church in Fayetteville, Arkansas?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0Well, we did eventually wind up visiting there.\u00a0 We were in Tulsa at the time, and so we didn't travel all the way over to University Baptist, but I remember when Mary Ann and I went up to a U of A football game, and we went the next morning to University Baptist, and I thought, \"This is a pretty good church.\u00a0 If there were more like this, you could have a whole movement going here, you know?\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0That church was led by a man who was used mightily in my life \u2013 H.D. McCarty.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0And everybody called him \"H\" right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0Everybody called him \"H\" or H.D.\" \u2013 Harvey Dwight was his name, and H.D. was one of the three most influential men outside of my father who was used by God spiritually in my life, and the reason I mention him is because he led a church in being relevant and biblical.\u00a0 And as a result, attracted a ton of men from Northwest Arkansas not only from the business community but from the campus there, the University of Arkansas.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0His background had a little to do with that.\u00a0 He was a pilot of some kind, wasn't he?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0That's right.\u00a0 He flew in the Air Force, but his father deserted him when he was a boy.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0Oh, really?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0And so he learned the hard way that men need men.\u00a0 And, you know, when it comes to the Christian community today, I think the church and all of us as followers of Christ need to be acutely aware of what men are looking for as we point them to God, and we have a guest here on FamilyLife Today, David Murrow, who is going to help us know better how to connect with men and not merely get them to church but connect them to God.\u00a0 David, I want to welcome you to the broadcast, glad you're here.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDavid:\u00a0Good to be here.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0David is the director of Church for Men.\u00a0 It's an organization dedicated to restoring healthy, masculine spirits in men and pointing them in the right direction as they address their spiritual needs.\u00a0 He is married to his wife Gina, and they have a son and two daughters and live in Anchorage, Alaska.\u00a0 Now, I happen to know this because I have some very good friends who also give leadership to a great church \u2013 Change Point Church in Anchorage, Alaska.\u00a0 The sun doesn't shine much in the winter.\u00a0 What are winters like there in your home?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDavid:\u00a0Well, in Anchorage it's not so bad.\u00a0 On the worst day of the year, we're getting maybe five hours, and every point on the globe gets the same amount of light.\u00a0 We have front-loaded in the summer \u2013 we get 19 hours on the longest day.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0And the flowers go crazy.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDavid:\u00a0They go nuts, because they don't take a night off.\u00a0 They just grow all night.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0And it's the people who go crazy.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDavid:\u00a0We're the ones who go, yeah, because we're all down to like five hours, but as you go further north up toward the Arctic Circle, Fairbanks is, like, two-and-a-half hours, and then Barrow, the sun is down for, like, two-and-a-half months.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0So on the shortest day of the year, the sun comes up at 11 and goes down at 4, something like that?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDavid:\u00a0About 2:30 in Fairbanks.\u00a0 I used to live in Fairbanks, and that's very close to the Arctic Circle.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0Well, Alaska is also known for a lot of men who love the outdoors, and it's also known as a state that is \u2013 well, has the most number of unchurched men.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDavid:\u00a0Yes, the entire Pacific Northwest region has a lot of men who don't go to church.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0Was that a part of why you wrote your book, \"Why Men Hate Going to Church?\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDavid:\u00a0Well, I just have a burden for guys.\u00a0 I want to see guys connected with their Savior, I want to see them in church.\u00a0 And I've been a follower of Jesus for 28 years, and I've always wondered why there were more women than men in the congregation.\u00a0 One day I was just sitting there looking around, and I counted noses and saw that about 60 percent of the people there were women, the average age of those women was about 50 to 55 years old.\u00a0 I looked around at how the church was decorated, and I saw quilted banners and fresh flowers and boxes of Kleenex, and a lace doily on the communion table, and it just came to me that the whole atmosphere that we were creating in the church was a very feminine one.\u00a0 It was very comfortable for these middle-aged older women, but your average 20-year-old construction worker walking in there, there's nothing for him to relate to.\u00a0 He wouldn't be as comfortable walking into a church.\u00a0 And that's what kind of got me thinking about what is it about what we're doing on Sunday morning that's putting the big stop sign up for men?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0You studied anthropology at Baylor, so you were doing a little anthropological work as you sat in your church that morning.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDavid:\u00a0Yeah, they teach us to do what are called \"ethnographic studies,\" and I was actually sitting there, a little bit bored during a sermon one time, and decided to do an ethnographic study, and I realized that the target audience of the church I was attending was a 55-year-old woman.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0And it's not just in America.\u00a0 I have spoken at churches in the former Soviet Union and, they're, for the most part, 70 percent women \u2013 matriarchal.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDavid:\u00a0The gender gap is worldwide, but what's so troubling to me is that the gender gap is only in Christianity.\u00a0 If you go to the Middle East, and you go to a mosque, you find robust male participation \u2013 50 percent, 55 percent of the worshipers are men \u2013 same with Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism, especially Orthodox Judaism.\u00a0 But when you come to Christianity, the church right next door to the mosque has got 70 percent women in it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0And you would say that's not because Christianity is an intrinsically feminine religion, right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDavid:\u00a0Well, I mean, look at the Bible.\u00a0 Was there any shortage of enthusiastic men in those days?\u00a0 It's the story of bold, courageous men.\u00a0 Our faith was founded by a man and His 12 male disciples.\u00a0 So something has happened in the last 2,000 years to give us a reputation as a place for little old ladies of both sexes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0And has this been a cultural phenomenon that you can trace back 100 years or 500 years or 1,000 years?\u00a0 When did the church become feminized?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDavid:\u00a0Well, there's a gentleman by the name of Leon Podles who wrote a book called \"The Feminization of Christianity.\"\u00a0 He traces it back to medieval times.\u00a0 There was a heavy emphasis on Mary in the Catholic Church.\u00a0 Instead of venerating a male deity now, all of a sudden, we had a female deity.\u00a0 We had bridal mysticism coming in.\u00a0 But I think it really got rolling in the Victorian Era when we saw men leaving home to seek work in mines, mills, and factories.\u00a0 Pastors looked out at their congregations, and they saw women, children, and aged men, and so they began to subtly tailor their methods, their messages.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0You know, we used to have in the 1700s is was sinners in the hands of an angry God and repent and more masculine type messages, but in the 1800s it became more a personal walk with Jesus and Jesus loving you, and, you know, you need a balance between the two but, definitely, one is more motivating to a man; one is more motivating to a woman.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0When I was a boy, and I was on my own spiritual journey, it's interesting what you're talking about, because you're bringing back some emotions and memories I had of feeling like church was not for real men.\u00a0 And so even as a boy, I remember kind of keeping it at a distance, not wanting to be like \"that.\"\u00a0 Do you find that's the case even among men, as they move into their 20s, 30s, and 40s today \u2013 that same type of description?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDavid:\u00a0Oh, you've hit it right on the head.\u00a0 I mean, there is just a widespread perception the church is something for women, weirdos, and wimps.\u00a0 I mean, no real guy would get involved in church.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0Now, when we say women, weirdos, and wimps, we're not lumping women in with \u2026\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0\u2026 weirdos and wimps.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0Exactly.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0We're not saying they're defective in some way.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0Exactly.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDavid:\u00a0No, I'm just talking about that's sort of \u2013 I got that quote from \u2013 actually, a Catholic priest.\u00a0 I was talking about the shortage of men in the Catholic church, and he said he has heard that from many men that don't want to come to mass; that they're going to have to hang out with a collection of women, weirdos, kind of strange guys, and wimpy guys.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0Well, and I'm thinking back to my own presupposition of what piety and holiness looks like, and thinking to myself, \"I don't know that that's me.\u00a0 I don't know that I can be that.\"\u00a0 Now, again, I'm not talking about genuine holiness or genuine piety.\u00a0 It's the caricature of somebody where meekness is weakness; where you're quiet, you don't laugh, you never \u2026\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0Well, we've heard our Savior referred to at times as even being soft, you know, He was one who said \u2026\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0\u2026 \"gentle Jesus, meek and mild.\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0There we go, and that doesn't somehow translate into real masculinity, at least in some people's minds.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDavid:\u00a0Well, let's talk about where it starts.\u00a0 It starts in our Sunday school program.\u00a0 Now, let's picture a little boy, let's call him Tom.\u00a0 Tom comes into Sunday school and what do we ask of him \u2013 sit still, be gentle, be relational, read, speak verbally.\u00a0 Well, you know what?\u00a0 Girls are better at all those things than boys are.\u00a0 So after five or six years of Tom being beaten every week by the girl sitting next to him who can read better, who can emote better, who can express herself better, by the time he's gotten through the sixth grade, he's convinced, \"I can't win at church.\u00a0 I lose every Sunday at church.\" \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0It's very important for boys to be competent, it's important for boys to win.\u00a0 So then it continues into the church service.\u00a0 He grows up, he marries Tina, Tom and Tina go to church, they both know Jesus, they both love the Lord but, again, the same judgments are in place \u2013 how verbal are you, how sensitive are you, how relational are you, how good are you at reading and speaking in Sunday school classses?\u00a0 Tina outshines Tom every week.\u00a0 So it's very hard.\u00a0 Eventually, Tom gets discouraged and drops out of church.\u00a0 Not because he's not interested in the Gospel, not because he's not interested in Jesus Christ, but we've created a standard that is very hard for Tom to win at.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0So you're not saying we need to add foosball and air hockey back into the worship service so that guys can win at some things, are you?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDavid:\u00a0We need some things that men can win at.\u00a0 I mean, Dennis, you were talking a little bit about Sunday school and some of the volunteer opportunities.\u00a0 When we look for volunteers, we're looking for people to work with children; child care; teaching; planning ceremonial gatherings at weddings, funerals; sitting in committee meetings \u2013 really, there's nothing in most churches' ministry opportunities that would get a man out of bed on Sunday morning.\u00a0 We need opportunities for men to win \u2013 pounding nails or doing projects, hanging out with guys, going on adventurous mission trips.\u00a0 The churches that are doing those things with men are experiencing a lot of success in getting them integrated.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0You know, I was in a church not long after Hurricane Katrina hit, and it was fascinating to watch an announcement go up at this church where there were a lot of great men that after the service, a number of men were getting tools, they were getting equipment, and they were going to get in a bunch of vans, a bunch of trucks, and they were heading down to New Orleans.\u00a0 And you know what?\u00a0 The front of that church was absolutely packed.\u00a0 There were men who stepped forward into that gap, and you have to wonder, at that point \u2013 and there wasn't a lot on the evening news about how the church stepped in quietly, individual churches from all over the nation brought men with hammers and nails and air guns and power saws and tools and chainsaws and did the man's work.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDavid:\u00a0Yeah, and for a lot of these guys it was probably the first time in years they've had a win at church.\u00a0 Here is something I'm really good at, and here is my chance to serve God doing something I'm good at, rather than squeezing them into a mold like, \"Well, here, change this diaper.\"\u00a0 Maybe guys \u2013 that's not going to thrill his imagination as much as slicing a two-by-four.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0I want to take you back to my sixth grade Sunday school class, because you just raised a question, and I'm not sure how I would answer it for myself.\u00a0 You said it's the girls who are good at relating and sitting still and doing a better job in terms of sitting in Sunday school.\u00a0 And, boy, that was true of my sixth grade Sunday school class.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0You're talking about the one that you led.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0I led \u2013\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0Not the one you were in.\u00a0 No \u2013 well, yeah, it could have been true of the one I was in, although back when I was in it, the boys and the girls were separated, and I was in a sixth grade Sunday school class with my dad, and I just remember it was hard to sit still, and I was firing spitwad bullets and flying airplanes and getting in trouble, even with my dad there, but my dad had a way of ground all the airplanes that were taking off in the class.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0But I'm reflecting back, and I'm thinking, \"What should I have done as a teacher with those young men in terms of allowing them to express their masculinity?\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDavid:\u00a0 Well, there are solutions out there.\u00a0 The church that I attend \u2013 you mentioned Change Point in Anchorage.\u00a0 We've done away with the Sunday school.\u00a0 We have something called \"Summit Kids,\" where we take the kids; we put them in a gym environment; we let them run around.\u00a0 We have competitions not only for memorizing Bible verses but also for physical contests \u2013 see who can jump the highest.\u00a0 So the boys get a chance to win every week.\u00a0 It's much more interactive and hands-on type learning.\u00a0 They sing silly songs.\u00a0 So the purpose of it is not necessarily to cram their heads with Bible knowledge, but to let them know God loves them, God's on their side, and then when the boys come out in the sixth grade, they know they can win, they have a chance to do well in church.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0The whole problem with the Sunday school system is after a six-year losing streak, boys get into junior high, and they don't want to have anything more to do with church.\u00a0 They're tired of losing.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0Mm-hm, and, you know, I'm thinking of how my church here in Little Rock, Fellowship Bible Church is really touching the nation through it's ministry to men called Men's Fraternity.\u00a0\u00a0 Robert Lewis, who is a very good friend of mine, started meeting with a number of men back, I think, about 1990, and I think maybe there were 40 or 50 men who would get up at 6 a.m. in the morning and meet with him and start hammering out some biblical principles of manhood and how men could relate to each other and tell their story to one another.\u00a0 Is this the kind of thing we need to provide more of, David, so that men can gather together, they can rub shoulders and not be ashamed of their masculinity?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDavid:\u00a0Well, that's exactly right.\u00a0 I mean, men are interested in God.\u00a0 Every poll says that 90 percent of American men believe in God, five out of six claim to be Christians, but only two out of six are in church on a given Sunday.\u00a0 And I think it's because of the way we worship God, the sentiments we express or the passivity and the receptivity and the gentleness that we accept.\u00a0 It just doesn't resonate with the masculine heart.\u00a0 But if you get him into a situation like Men's Fraternity, you see the hunger they have to follow God.\u00a0 But the format of the Sunday service just doesn't do it for them.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0I'm curious about that, because I'm thinking about the traditional Sunday worship service and, certainly, the elements that are there \u2013 the preaching of the Word, you'd say that's biblical; the public reciting of Scripture \u2013 these are all good things.\u00a0 What makes it feminine and unappealing to guys?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDavid:\u00a0Well, I think it starts with the d\u00e9cor.\u00a0 Men are very symbolic, and when they walk in, the symbols they see are usually feminine.\u00a0 They might see quilted banners on the walls, fresh flowers on the altar, a lace doily on the communion table, boxes of Kleenex, soft, cushiony pews.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0You keep mentioning this lace doily.\u00a0 Does that bother you a little bit, the lace doily?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDavid:\u00a0Well, I'm just trying to put myself into the shoes of a 22-year-old construction worker, sports fan type guy.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0He doesn't know what to do with it, does he?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDavid:\u00a0It just doesn't compute.\u00a0 It says \"Grandma\" to him.\u00a0 That's the only place he's ever seen that symbol.\u00a0 The symbols that resonate with him are sports teams, the military, challenge, adventure.\u00a0 Just look at the films these men watch \u2013 it's all about a band of brothers that goes out to change the world.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0So what kind of d\u00e9cor should they have?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDavid:\u00a0I was speaking to John Eldridge who tells of a church that had a prayer room, and none of the men would ever go in there to pray, because it was decorated exactly as I described.\u00a0 Well, he challenged the men to redecorate.\u00a0 And they stripped the place and put up Celtic shields and swords and banners and candles \u2013 you know, like, big, thick candles, and all these sort of masculine images.\u00a0 Here is what they found \u2013 not only did the men go in to pray, you couldn't get the women out with a crowbar.\u00a0 They loved that masculine imagery, and that's the thing that I'm saying with my book, \"Why Men Hate Going to Church.\"\u00a0 Not only do we have to turn the thermostat more toward men's comfort for the men, this upcoming generation of women, these masculine images really resonate.\u00a0 They find God in them.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0And what we want to make sure women are hearing us say, we're not talking about ignoring the needs of a woman or maximizing the worship experience for a woman.\u00a0 What we're talking about is, as you said, turning up the thermostat to a temperature that's appealing to a man.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDavid:\u00a0Yeah, let me build on that \u2013 in the last 30 years we've had a big movement toward praise and worship in the church, and that's been a healthy thing on a lot of levels, but in moving toward more of an experiential, \"I love you, Jesus,\" personal relationship with God, we've lost the mission.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0And a lot of guys come in, they come in on Sunday morning, they don't sense a sense of purpose or mission or challenge there, it's just all about me and God.\u00a0 Well, men won't give up their weekends for a relationship, even one with God.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0I was visiting a church in another community recently on a weekend where I was away from home, and the church had its mission statement.\u00a0 I don't remember exactly what it was, but it was something about advancing the work of the Kingdom and allegiance to the King, and, you know, I thought to myself, that's a pretty good mission, isn't it?\u00a0 The Kingdom and the King \u2013 I mean, it kind of called out that knight in us to want to saddle up and armor up and get ready for the battle.\u00a0 I think that's a little bit of what we've been talking about here today.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0God has made men with a great need to know Jesus Christ.\u00a0 What we need to be doing today is everything we can do humanly possible to make the Christian message, the message of God's love and forgiveness and His mission clear and appealing to men so that they can embrace it.\u00a0 And, Bob, I think what men are wanting today is they are wanting a way to express their courage and to allow their chests to, shall I say, kind of push out and bow up.\u00a0 God made men to conquer.\u00a0 You know what?\u00a0 That is a God-given male \u2013 not just a responsibility, but I think it's part of our fiber.\u00a0 And if we ignore that, we're going to be walking by 50 percent of the population and how God made them.\u00a0 He made men and women differently.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0Well, and I think David has asked a very provocative question, just in the title of the book he has written \u2013 \"Why Do Men Hate Going to Church?\"\u00a0 Why are there more women in church than men?\u00a0 And whatever conclusions you come to in terms of why that is and how to remedy it, we'll leave those conclusions to churches to grapple with on their own, but don't ignore the issue, that's the point.\u00a0 Let's figure out what we can do to present authentic biblical Christianity in a way that will resonate with men, because we believe that the faith does, in fact, resonate with men.\u00a0 We've just got to make sure that we are authentically presenting it.\u00a0 And I think it would do pastors and church leaders, elders, anybody who cares about the church, it would do them some good to wrestle with this question \u2013 \"Why Men Hate Going to Church.\"\u00a0 Read David's book and ask what can we do to encourage husbands and other men in our community to be more involved in church.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0We've got copies of the book in our FamilyLife Resource Center, and you can contact us online at FamilyLife.com to have a copy sent to you.\u00a0 Again, the website is FamilyLife.com.\u00a0 Click where it says \"Today's Broadcast,\" there in the center of the page, and that will take you right to the area where you can get more information about today's program, about the resources that are available, about David's book, \"Why Men Hate Going to Church,\" and there is an additional resource there that we want to suggest you consider.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0A few years ago, Stu Weber, who is a pastor and a former Green Beret and who understands something about men \u2013 he wrote a book called \"All the King's Men,\" talking about how men need other men in relationship and how that can be cultivated in the context of the church.\u00a0 Again, there is more information about all of these resources on our website at FamilyLife.com.\u00a0 If you do order both David Murrow's book and Stu Weber's book, we'll send you at no additional cost the CD audio of our conversation with David this week.\u00a0 Get all the details on the Web at FamilyLife.com or call us at 1-800-FLTODAY.\u00a0 That's 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY, and we'll let you know how you can get these resources sent to you.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0And when you do get in touch with us, if you can help us out by letting us know the call letters of the station on which you hear FamilyLife Today, that would be helpful.\u00a0 We try to keep track of where folks are listening, because we want to be good stewards of the limited resources we have here at FamilyLife for distributing our radio program, and we want to make sure that it's being listened to in cities where it's currently on the air.\u00a0 So when you get in touch with us, just mention the call letters of the station that you listen to to hear FamilyLife Today.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd if you are able to help with a donation for the ministry of FamilyLife Today, we'd appreciate you doing that.\u00a0 This month when you make a donation of any amount, we'd like to send you a thank you gift.\u00a0 It's a CD of a message that is a great message for husbands and wives during the month of February.\u00a0 It's about passion and intimacy in marriage.\u00a0 In fact, it's called \"The Four Flames of Intimacy,\" and it's from our friends, Jody and Linda Dillow.\u00a0 A husband and wife could really profit from listening to this message together and then spending some time interacting about it, and we'll send it to you as our thank you gift when you support the ministry of FamilyLife Today this month with a donation of any amount.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf you're making your donation online, when you get to the keycode box on the donation form, just write in the world \"flame\" and we'll know that you'd like to get the CD sent to you.\u00a0 Or\u00a0 call 1-800-FLTODAY, make a donation, and just mention that you'd like the CD you heard us talking about on the radio, and we'll get that out to you.\u00a0 And, as always, we want to say thanks for your ongoing support of this ministry.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWell, tomorrow we're going to continue to examine some of the reasons why men stay away from church and some of the things we can consider doing about that.\u00a0 I hope you can be back with us for that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team.\u00a0 On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine.\u00a0 See you next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tFamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you.\u00a0 However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website.\u00a0 If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/site\/c.dnJHKLNnFoG\/b.3782043\/k.384D\/Support_Us.htm\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the 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