{"id":301053,"date":"2006-01-26T12:00:00","date_gmt":"2006-01-26T17:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/keeping-them-involved\/"},"modified":"2024-10-07T22:42:15","modified_gmt":"2024-10-08T02:42:15","slug":"keeping-them-involved","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/keeping-them-involved\/","title":{"rendered":"Keeping Them Involved"},"content":{"rendered":"","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>When are children old enough to participate in church?<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2006-01-26.mp3","podmotor_file_id":"","podmotor_episode_id":"","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:","filesize":"11.4M","filesize_raw":"11958337","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2806],"tags":[4369,2209],"podcast_series":[7430],"cwp_profile":[8987],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-301053","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-spiritual-development","tag-church","tag-parenting","podcast_series-parenting-in-the-pew","cwp_profile-robbie-castleman","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/301053\/keeping-them-involved","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/301053\/keeping-them-involved","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"wFsx4KtgdI\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/keeping-them-involved\/\">Keeping Them Involved<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/keeping-them-involved\/embed\/#?secret=wFsx4KtgdI\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Keeping Them Involved&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"wFsx4KtgdI\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var 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Natalie's got soccer this afternoon at 2, choir practice is at 5:30.\u00a0 Hey, honey, could you stop by the grocery store on your way home from church and pick up some ice cream?\u00a0 I promised Leslie that I \u2013 yes, we're driving separately today, remember?\u00a0 I have to be there for sound check at 8.\u00a0 Oh, that's in 10 minutes, I better get dressed.\u00a0 Natalie, Jeremy, there's Pop Tarts in the pantry, please eat those.\u00a0 I don't know, vanilla's fine.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0That may be a familiar sound for some of our listeners, especially \u2026\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0Was that taped at our house?\u00a0 Getting a family to church and then at church, staying in church, is a challenge today, but it is not optional.\u00a0 As we talked about on yesterday's broadcast, the whole concept of imparting the experience and worship of God to our children is, I believe, a part of the command of Deuteronomy, chapter 6, where we are instructed by God to pass on the reality of Christ and our experience of Him to the next generation of young people.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0And we have with us an expert who has done that \u2013 who did it perfectly.\u00a0 In fact, raised two perfect children, they weren't selfish or sinful like our children, Bob, these were perfect kids.\u00a0 Robbie Castleman joins us.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tRobbie:\u00a0Well, if anybody is listening that knew my children, you will wonder who they're talking about.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0She is the proud mother of two sons who didn't do it all perfectly \u2013 I was kidding.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tRobbie:\u00a0But who have turned out pretty well.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0Yeah, in spite of being Seminoles and growing up in Florida country.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0You weren't going to bring that up today.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0I decided to go ahead \u2026\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0There we go, the drumbeat back on the table.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0It's coming out of her, there it is again.\u00a0 Robbie is a professor at John Brown University, works on the staff with Intervarsity Christian Fellowship.\u00a0 That's a great sister organization with Campus Crusade for Christ, a great pair church ministry, started all the way back in the late 1800s in Britain, I understand, is that right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tRobbie:\u00a0And then went from Britain to Canada and from Canada down to the United States.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0It's a great organization.\u00a0 She has written a book called \"Parenting in the Pew, Guiding Your Children Into the Joy of Worship.\"\u00a0 The premise behind this book is that you want us, as parents, first of all, to enjoy worship.\u00a0 And then, secondly, train our children and pass on that experience of genuine, biblical, God-centered worship to them.\u00a0 For most families, Robbie, they never have a chance to enjoy worship on Sunday morning because they lose the battle on Saturday night.\u00a0 I mean, they don't take their baths, they don't get their clothes ready, and I know, for one, I could hold my hand as a witness, we lost the fight on more Sunday mornings trying to get six children ready.\u00a0 We had six children in 10 years and getting ready for church on Sunday morning \u2026\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0I think, Robbie, you said in your book that, statistically, more shoes are lost on Sunday morning than any other day of the week, isn't that right?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tRobbie:\u00a0Socks.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0More socks?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tRobbie:\u00a0Socks, it's socks, yes.\u00a0 But this will be the same family \u2013 not yours, Dennis, but another mythical family, the same kind of family who will not be 30 seconds late for a kickoff.\u00a0 That very often what families do is they will take more time and care to plan a tailgate party to perfection in order to unpack, repack, and get in the stands for the kickoff before it happens and never miss a beat.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0Okay, I'm going to stop you there.\u00a0 Why is that true?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tRobbie:\u00a0Well, because they plan for it, because they plan for and because it's important, and we're not going to be late.\u00a0 Very often we don't take the same kind of care and planning to get the family to worship \u2013 and you notice I used the term \"to worship\" and not just \"to church,\" on a Sunday morning.\u00a0 I think there are two dynamics that are real on a Sunday morning that are not necessarily that real for a tailgate party.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0One is that in terms of family rhythm, if God has blessed the entire family, it's one of the few mornings in the duration of a week where the entire family \u2013 like you alluded to, Dennis, goes to one place at the same time.\u00a0 So there's a logistical logjam.\u00a0 And I was a single parent on Sunday mornings, because my husband was the pastor.\u00a0 You know, he belonged to the congregation on a Sunday morning.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0So he was off at church before you got ready.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tRobbie:\u00a0Yeah, I needed to do this and even with just two and not six, it was still a lot of work.\u00a0 But you have to plan; you have to think ahead.\u00a0 If it's important to you, you plan, whether it's a tailgate party or everybody getting into the minivan for a Sunday morning.\u00a0 The second big dynamic on a Sunday morning is that we have an enemy on Sunday morning, and he wants to heighten the hypocrisy quotient in our homes on a Sunday morning, more than any other morning of the week, because the evil one does not want our children to believe.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThe Evil One is against the next generation growing into faith in Jesus Christ, and, I'll be honest with you, as a parent, the single worst morning time hour, half-hour, minute, of my parenting life was on a Sunday morning, and it really alerted me to \"I'm not like this.\u00a0 Where did this come from?\u00a0 And I realized that the Evil One was against me.\u00a0 He didn't want my children to believe that my faith in Jesus and that my relationship with the Lord really made a difference and that going to worship and loving Jesus \u2013 I mean, the hypocrisy of a Sunday morning sometimes is astounding in our lives, and we know that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0I wish, before we had started having children, that I would have heard that exhortation right there, because it took us the better part of 10 years to have hassle after hassle and battle after battle on Sunday morning before you realized you know what?\u00a0 There really is something spiritual going on here, and Barbara and I need to be prepared for this.\u00a0 We don't just need to march off into battle with a blindfold on.\u00a0 We need to systematically be ready with our assignment.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0In fact, as I was reading your book, I was thinking, you know what would have been really good \u2013 if I had been the spiritual leader of my family, Bob, which I tried, and a lot of men do try, but it's like what should I have done differently?\u00a0 I wish I would have seen what a battleground this was, because it was going to happen 52 times a year, maybe more with additional things going on at church, but have realized that Barbara desperately needed my help, and we needed to break down the responsibilities into two job descriptions, and it really did need to start on Saturday night.\u00a0 I needed to be a part of the solution, I needed to be a part of helping her and clarifying expectation of who does what so we can get to church on time and not walk in like a herd of buffalo after the worship has already started and, you know, here comes the Rainey family again, you know, scooting and scurrying through the aisle trying to find a seat some three to five minutes late.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0Let me see if I've got this picture right.\u00a0 You're saying that on Sunday morning at your house for a while, at least, it was \"I'll get myself ready for church,\" you, Dad, Dennis, \"and, Barbara, you get yourself ready and get the kids ready, too.\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0And I'll get in the car \u2026\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0\u2026 and toot the horn?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0\u2026 I'll meet you there.\u00a0 Now, I don't think it was really that bad, you know, but it probably was worse.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0Pretty close?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0Yeah, but the bottom line is, I think that, as men, we need to realize that Sunday morning is not some kind of entitlement to a man.\u00a0 Sunday morning needs to be a time when you think about leading and guiding and helping your family get ready for church on time and be in the car on time so that you can arrive ahead of time.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0Did you have to stumble, as a mom, before you got to the place of \u2013 we've talked about how we messed up heading into Sunday morning, some of the things \u2026\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tRobbie:\u00a0No, I always did it perfectly, yeah.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0Did you?\u00a0 Well, thanks very much.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0She was a pastor's wife.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tRobbie:\u00a0Yes, and a good pastor's wife, too.\u00a0 Of course, if anyone that knows me is listening \u2013 no, most good things that you learn, you learn the hard way, and I learned a lot of things the hard way.\u00a0 A lot of things I did right, but there were things I'd have to go back and say \u2013 I remember one time we were quite late getting to, actually, the Sunday school hour at our church.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0Now, this is the pastor's wife arriving late?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tRobbie:\u00a0Yes \u2013 and with her two boys in tow, and it was because \u2013 I think this was early teenage years, and we'd had a row and a go around, and I was just absolutely not right with the Lord.\u00a0 I had been sinful, I had sinned against my children, and we had to get straight, we had to get straight first, and we all got there late for the Sunday school hour that morning.\u00a0 But before we did, we'd prayed together \u2013 so spiritual preparation, the preparation of our hearts has got to be a part of the logistics.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0Let's talk about when a mom and a dad need to be thinking about taking a youngster into corporate worship.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0You said yesterday you started when your kids were four.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tRobbie:\u00a0Four, mm-hm.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0Do you think that's an appropriate age?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tRobbie:\u00a0For most children, I think so.\u00a0 Children are different, parents do know their kids.\u00a0 I think any inordinate delay past four years of age is probably something else going on there.\u00a0 But around four years of age children can begin to stay in the entire worship service.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0Now, some of our listeners are saying, \"Well, we don't do that at our church.\u00a0 The kids don't come into the worship service until junior high or high school or maybe even college age kids.\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tRobbie:\u00a0Congregations can have different habits than the parents within them.\u00a0 You know, we've inherited churches that had children's churches and that had a children's program of some sort of another, and \u2026\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0And what did you do?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tRobbie:\u00a0My children just didn't participate.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0Didn't your kids want to go to children's church?\u00a0 The other kids were coming out \u2026\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tRobbie:\u00a0No, they grew into it, and they pretty much knew that we don't do that.\u00a0 That was a non-negotiable, we worship together, it's important that we're together before the Lord and the congregation, and that's how it was.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0Okay, you start them out at fours years of age, they're beginning to learn how to sing.\u00a0 Of course, they're not old enough to read yet \u2026\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tRobbie:\u00a0Right.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0But you shared yesterday how, during a time of responsive reading, you would actually point to the hymnal and to the words to show your children what was taking place there.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tRobbie:\u00a0The benefit of it, there's benefit beyond just helping them pay attention and learn to worship, but children learn to read left to right as you move your finger down the line.\u00a0 I was really struck when my children were in high school, and they had invited friends to come to church, and they did, and they sat with us, and the boys knew that the rules were the rules; that when they had friends in church they would help their friends know what to do.\u00a0 And I was astounded about how many of the boys' friends did not know how music was written.\u00a0 You know how the stanzas are written \u2013 well, these kids had never seen a hymnbook.\u00a0 These were unchurched friends, and the boys had to teach them, \"Now you go down to this stanza, then we go back to the top, and you do verse 1, verse 2,\" you know, things we take for granted that I never realized that other children simply had never learned.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0So it was interesting.\u00a0 But you begin \u2013 you begin to train them how to read left to right \u2013 one handy thing, because there's a lot of great churches out there that don't use printed words anymore.\u00a0 It's all on PowerPoint, it's all on overheads, and usually when I go into a church situation and do worship consultation for children in different congregations, and this is the habit of the congregation, I ask the worship committee to talk to the PowerPoint people or the pastor or the worship committee, whoever is in charge of it, to print out the words.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIt's very difficult, just in a developmental way, for children, up until about eight or nine years old, to track left to right on an overhead screen.\u00a0 It's difficult for them, even as they're learning to read, that a printed page, even just with the words that are on the PowerPoint or the words that are on the overhead pray, song, whatever, it's much easier for the parent to have just a little bundle of what we're going to sing this morning or what we're going to say this morning or what we're going to read this morning in a children's packet and to have that printed out for the kids, and then the parents use that instead of the overhead, just for a developmental thing that we need to recognize with children.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0You would have your boys stand up on the pew and \u2013 if you were standing to sing something, that way they were at the same eye level as you and could read off the hymnal.\u00a0 I remember, I would often sit with my boys rather than having them stand in the pew, I'd actually sit down, but the importance of the eye level and tracing it with the finger does help them engage and say \"I'm participating here, I'm not just supposed to be quiet and watch adults sing.\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tRobbie:\u00a0Yeah, and, Bob, that brings up a good visual reminder that there you are, the only parent sitting while the entire congregation is standing during this reading or this song \u2013 that's okay.\u00a0 What's important is, Bob, you and your boys were before the Lord, and that's what people have to remember, and I do think it's good to respect the traditions of a congregation.\u00a0 We've never had a church fancy enough where you couldn't stand on the pew, but if you did go to a nice church like you went to, Bob, that you just don't stand on the pews, then, for you to sit down, but to maintain that eye level is completely appropriate and very helpful for your children.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0But what do you do when you get to the sermon with the four-year-old?\u00a0 I mean, the man up there \u2013 and I know, in this case, it's your husband, but he's using words that you don't understand, he's talking about \u2013\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tRobbie:\u00a0Oh, yeah, you should have been there during eunuch, mm-hm.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0There are some concepts you have to explain after church, aren't there?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tRobbie:\u00a0Oh, there are some concepts the pastor has to explain.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0To his wife.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tRobbie:\u00a0Well, at least to the boys.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0Here we're talking \u2013 I have to confess to you, and I want to know if you think this was okay \u2013 when our kids were in the worship service, early on, I remember with David and with John, I put together a little list \u2013 here are the do's and don't's during the worship service \u2013 you are not to do this, you are not to \u2026\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0Such as, come on, get specific.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0You are not to ask Mommy and Daddy a question.\u00a0 If you have a question, write it down and ask after the service.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0Not during the service.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0Not while the pastor is preaching, because the questions are usually like \u2026\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0\"Can we go out to eat?\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0\"Can I have a friend over on Tuesday?\"\u00a0 You know, it's that kind of \u2013 it's not what does he mean by propitiation?\u00a0 You know, that wasn't what we were getting.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tRobbie:\u00a0Those were my children.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0Yeah, that's right.\u00a0 So we had that, and you're not to ask about where we're going to eat after church until the service is over, then you may ask.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0What about the restroom?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0You are to go to the restroom before the worship service starts.\u00a0 You are not excused to go to the restroom during the worship service.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0Actually, what Robbie did on that, she would actually have a pit stop between Sunday school and the church service.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0You've got to do it, and the kids will say, \"I don't need to,\" \"Well, I don't care if you need to, we're going in there.\u00a0 You're going to stand there and pretend like you need to for a while, okay, because you may find that you need to if you stop.\u00a0 I don't want you needing to 15 minutes from now.\"\u00a0 So I had all of those rules written down, but here is what I did.\u00a0 I said, \"If you do this, then you can have a Coke at lunch after church.\"\u00a0 So I used a bribe.\u00a0 I've just got to be honest about it, I used a bribe.\u00a0 Every Sunday, church was over, as soon as the pastor said \"Amen,\" David turned to me and said, \"Did I earn a Coke today?\"\u00a0 And I said, \"Yes, David you got a Coke today.\"\u00a0 Is it okay to bribe our kids like that?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tRobbie:\u00a0Well, I think there are seasons where that can be appropriate.\u00a0 God has never begrudged us for motive very, very seldom.\u00a0 In terms of training, you're going to go through seasons \u2013 you know, if you do this, we'll do this.\u00a0 This is important if this helps you do this.\u00a0 I have a \u2013 in the book I write about the time I had a junior high choir \u2013 the Atomic Praise Choir at our church, and most of these kids, when I inherited them, had not been parented in the pew, and so I was bringing my parenting rules to an entire choir of junior high kids.\u00a0 I used bribes.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0And I would test them on the sermon and in choir practice that afternoon, if you got all three right, you know, they'd write it down and do the pencil \u2013 I was always a teacher, I suspect, and when they got them all right, well, then, they got this, that, or the other thing.\u00a0 The thing that got to be funny was then during the worship service, during Sundays, my choir, you know, as they were scattered throughout the congregation, every once in a while, every junior high head in the church would turn to look at me to wonder if that was going to be on the test that afternoon.\u00a0 But at least they were listening.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0Well, back to my four-year-old, though, in the sermon time.\u00a0 My goal was quietness.\u00a0 It's hard to expect a four-year-old to track with an adult teaching adult stuff.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tRobbie:\u00a0Well, and it depends on the sermon and the sermoner.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0And the length of the worship service.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tRobbie:\u00a0That's right.\u00a0 Every service is different, every child is different, parents are different, temperaments are different, what your child needs is different, so you're going to treat a four-year-old different than a 14-year-old.\u00a0 A four-year-old, if they nod off during the service, and they just sort of lay their little sweet heads in your lap, you're going to let that happen.\u00a0 That's a perfectly appropriate thing for a little four-year-old to do.\u00a0 As they grow, as they're five and six and seven years old, I began to draw the boys' attention to illustrations.\u00a0 When you encourage your pastor to use illustrations in a sermon, and once you've gone to a church long enough, you learn your pastor's rhythm.\u00a0 When there's a pause, and he says, \"Now to illustrate this important teaching of Jesus, I want to tell you about\" \u2013 you know an illustration is coming.\u00a0 So you sort of prod your little bit of wandering in your six-year-old, say, and you say, \"Hey, now, listen to this, because pastor is going to tell a story.\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0So you begin to draw their attention just to that part of the sermon, and then it gets longer and longer and longer.\u00a0 Now, they hit to be 14 years old, and they're still nodding and going to na-na land during the sermon, that's just a very quiet rebellion or spiritual lethargy.\u00a0 And so when my boys, who seldom ever did that as 14-year-olds, so, yeah, I would lean over and I'd say, \"You know, if you're too tired to pay attention, you're sure too tired to go play ball this afternoon,\" and they knew I meant it.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0They just perked right back up, didn't they?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tRobbie:\u00a0They knew I meant it, and not every Sunday is going to be joyful experience of parenting, but the goal is not that morning, the goal is that God is honored, number one; number two, that your children come out the other end of this valuing the community of God's people and having a real \u2013 not religious \u2013 but a real relationship with Jesus Christ; and I have to say very honestly, a disclaimer at this point, that some parents can do everything right by the book and have rebellious children, and nobody can explain it.\u00a0 And some parents can be very lazy and hardly do anything for their kids, and their kids are grabbed by God along the way, and they end up serving Him forever.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0One of the things I appreciate about you, Robbie, you've not only clearly spelled out the goal, you also explain how we can get there.\u00a0 I realize she's married to the pastor of her church, but she shares in her book just around this whole concept, Bob, of illustrations, that if the pastor isn't doing a good job using illustrations, to go to him on behalf of the children and say you know what?\u00a0 These illustrations are the window into children's lives.\u00a0 It gives them an opportunity to peak and to peer into spiritual truths and realities around things they understand and they know.\u00a0 And that, to me, was very impressive, Robbie, because it showed the ownership you were taking on behalf of your children that you would offend your husband by going to him and change his preaching style \u2013 I'm kidding, of course, but you're exhortation is that parents really need to take this seriously and to go on behalf of the children, and that's really what you just exhorted us to do \u2013 we are to be passing on the real thing to our children.\u00a0 It's not religion, it's not dogma, it's not just truth and doctrine, although it's all of those things.\u00a0 At the bottom line, it must be a joy-filled experience of the King of kings and Lord of lords, who has risen from the dead, who wants to be our Master and Lord, and we're trying to pass that reality on to our children.\u00a0 I really like this book, Bob, it's a great book.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0And I know one of the reasons you like it is because it's very practical.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tDennis:\u00a0It really is.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBob:\u00a0It has a lot of help for parents who want to raise children to understand what's going on in church; that we are there to corporately gather together to worship God.\u00a0 Kids don't get that, teenagers don't get it unless we teach it to them, unless we model it for them, unless we instruct them, and Robbie's book helps us do that.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0We have it in our FamilyLife Resource Center.\u00a0 It's called \"Parenting in the Pew,\" and you can request a copy when you go online at FamilyLife.com.\u00a0 You can click on \"Today's Broadcast,\" and there's information about Robbie's book right there, or call 1-800-FLTODAY and talk with someone on our team who can let you know how you can have a copy of this book sent to you.\u00a0 Again, the toll-free number is 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY.\u00a0 Or you can go online at FamilyLife.com and order online, if you'd like.\u00a0 Again, the title of the book is \"Parenting in the Pew.\"\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0You know, Dennis, in each of the communities where FamilyLife Today is heard, there are a handful of folks who believe in this program to the point that they have stepped forward and said, \"We want to be faithful in helping to support the ministry of FamilyLife Today.\"\u00a0 They have become what we call Legacy Partners, and a Legacy Partner is somebody who, on a monthly basis, provides a part of the financial support we need for the ministry \u2013 maybe $25 or $35 or $50 or $100 a month, but their donation helps keep FamilyLife Today on the air in communities all across the country including this community.\u00a0 And each month we stay in touch with our Legacy Partners and try to provide them with updates about what's going on at the ministry, and we have resources we make available to Legacy Partners to help them continue to grow in their walk and in their relationship with Christ and with each other.\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0This month we are hoping to recruit some new Legacy Partners from each of the cities where FamilyLife Today is heard, and we'd like you to consider being one of those FamilyLife Today Legacy Partners.\u00a0 We think it will help you as well as helping us, and if you'd like more information about how you can join the team of Legacy Partners go to the website, FamilyLife.com, or call 1-800-FLTODAY and say, \"I want to know more about being a Legacy Partner,\" and someone on the team can get you the information you need.\u00a0 Again, it's 1-800-FLTODAY or online at FamilyLife.com.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0Well, tomorrow we're going to continue our conversation with Robbie Castleman as we talk about what we can do as we take our children to church to help them grow to become authentic worshipers.\u00a0 That's tomorrow on our program; I hope you can be back with us.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team.\u00a0 On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine.\u00a0 We'll see you back tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u00a0FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t________________________________________________________________\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts for you. 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