{"id":300479,"date":"2018-12-04T12:00:00","date_gmt":"2018-12-04T17:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/hope-for-the-abused-wife\/"},"modified":"2024-10-07T22:41:40","modified_gmt":"2024-10-08T02:41:40","slug":"hope-for-the-abused-wife","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/hope-for-the-abused-wife\/","title":{"rendered":"Hope for the Abused Wife"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>guest: Ramona Probasco | Series: Living Free From Abusive Relationships | Dr. Ramona Probasco tells what it&#8217;s like to be married to an abusive man. She provides insight into why abused wives don&#8217;t leave their husbands sooner, and how the abuse affected her children. Probasco tells what led her to seek help, and what she did to finally leave her abusive marriage.<\/p>\n<p>Are you in an abusive relationship? Download Ramona Probasco&#8217;s Abuse Evaluation Assessment<br \/>\nwww.DrRamona.com<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Dr. Ramona Probasco was emotionally and physically abused by her &#8220;Christian&#8221; husband regularly. Probasco tells what led her to seek help, and what she did to finally leave her abusive marriage.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"Dr. Ramona Probasco was emotionally and physically abused by her &quot;Christian&quot; husband. Hear what led her to seek help, and how she finally left.","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2018-12-04.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:28:29","filesize":"26.08M","filesize_raw":"27344847","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2848,2873],"tags":[2949,4398,4647,4396],"podcast_series":[7270],"cwp_profile":[8867],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-300479","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-cultural-issues","category-mental-and-emotional-issues","tag-abuse","tag-abusive-marriage","tag-emotional","tag-physical-abuse","podcast_series-living-free-from-abusive-relationships","cwp_profile-ramona-probasco","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/300479\/hope-for-the-abused-wife","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/300479\/hope-for-the-abused-wife","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"eTQvywH0q2\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/hope-for-the-abused-wife\/\">Hope for the Abused Wife<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/hope-for-the-abused-wife\/embed\/#?secret=eTQvywH0q2\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Hope for the Abused Wife&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"eTQvywH0q2\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2018-12-04.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2018-12-04.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Most victims of domestic violence never say anything to anyone about what they\u2019re experiencing, and Dr. Ramona Probasco says there\u2019s a reason for that.\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> It is <em>so<\/em> frightening to share this, because remember\u2014Dr. Jekyll\/Mr. Hyde\u2014so in public, everything looks rosy. You\u2019re afraid whoever you share this with is not going to believe you, because it doesn\u2019t look like it. So believe them\u2014that\u2019s the best and greatest gift you can give someone who exercised the courage\u2014believe their story.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Tuesday, December 4<sup>th<\/sup>. Our host is Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. So how can someone in a relationship, where there is domestic violence, get the help they need? We\u2019ll talk more about that today with Dr. Ramona Probasco. Stay with us.\n\nAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us.\n\n<strong>1:00<\/strong>\n\nWe often say, on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>,that we want to provide help and hope\u2014practical biblical help and hope for marriages and families\u2014and that\u2019s at the heart of what we\u2019re talking about this week.\n\n<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>It is. We have with us Dr. Ramona Probasco. Welcome back, Ramona.\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Thank you, Dennis. Thank you, Bob.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Glad you\u2019re here.\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Thank you.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> She has written a book called <em>Healing Well and Living Free from an Abusive Relationship<\/em>. She is a counsellor, who has over 20 years\u2019 experience in dealing with abusers and victims of abusers.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And it\u2019s part of your story as well\u2014\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014as we\u2019ve already heard this week.\n\n<strong>Ramona: <\/strong>Yes.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I wanted to just tell a story that happened to me, Ramona. I haven\u2019t shared this with you, because I wanted you to respond to this.\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Okay.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Barbara and I were on a flight to go to a wedding earlier this year in Houston. We got off the plane and a woman came up to me\u2014she said: \u201cI heard your voice. Are you Dennis Rainey?!\u201d\u2014this happens occasionally. It doesn\u2019t usually happen as it did in Houston; but she came up and she said: \u201cMy husband and I have been to the <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em>\u2014we <em>love<\/em> the conference.\n\n<strong>2:00<\/strong>\n\nWe listen to the broadcast, and we use the<em> Art of Marriage\u2122<\/em>.\u201d I said, \u201cReally?!\u201d\n\nShe said: \u201cYes; I\u2019ve got a story to tell you. We have a judge in our city, who deals with domestic violence. We have worked with him for him to sentence abusers to go through FamilyLife\u2019s the<em> Art of Marriage<\/em>,\u201d which is a small group video series that we created. She said: \u201cOver the past five years, we\u2019ve taken over 500 people, that have been sentenced by the judge, to go through the<em> Art of Marriage<\/em>. Many of them\u2014lots of them\u201d\u2014she said\u2014\u201chave come to saving faith in Jesus Christ.\u201d\n\nNow, I\u2019m not mentioning the city or the person for good reason; because I think that judge is <em>heroic<\/em>. I wish that every city, in every county, in every state, in the nation had a judge like that\u2014\n\n<strong>3:00<\/strong>\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014that would sentence abusers to find help and hope around the gospel of Jesus Christ. That, not only made my day, it made my <em>year<\/em>.\n\nI just want to turn to the listener, right now, and just say to you: \u201cDo you realize how important you are? Your financial gifts enable us to be able to proclaim, not only Jesus Christ and the hope that\u00a0 He offers in salvation, but also practical biblical help and hope for marriages and families.\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>And this is a critical time of year for us, as a ministry. We need to hear from listeners in December; don\u2019t we?\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> We do, Bob. I\u2019d just like to ask the listeners right now\u2014if you\u2019ve benefitted from <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, would you make a generous donation and say: \u201cI stand with you guys. I believe in this kind of radio for our nation\u201d? We\u2019re heard over 1,100 times a day, coast to coast.\n\n<strong>4:00<\/strong>\n\nWe\u2019re heard around the world on the web; but to do that, we need <em>you<\/em> to stand with us, not next week, but today.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Again, I\u2019ll just say this quickly before we continue the conversation\u2014you can make a donation, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call to donate at 1-800-FL-TODAY. In the month of December, when you make a donation, your donation is going to be matched, dollar for dollar, up to a total of $2.5 million. We\u2019ve had some friends of the ministry that have put that matching-gift fund together, and we want to take full advantage of that.\n\nIn addition, when you make a yearend donation, we\u2019d like to say, \u201cThank you,\u201d by sending you a DVD of the movie that FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> produced earlier this year called <em>Like Arrows<\/em>. The movie is not yet available for sale\u2014it will be out early in 2019\u2014but you can get a copy today when you donate to support this ministry. Make a donation, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to get your copy of the movie, <em>Like Arrows. <\/em>\n\n<strong>5:00<\/strong>\n\nThanks, in advance, for whatever you\u2019re able to do to help us with our yearend financial needs.\n\nDennis, the story you shared about people getting sentenced to go through the <em>Art of Marriage<\/em>\u2014there is hope for people who are experiencing domestic violence; but at the same time, I know Dr. Ramona, you quote\u2014what is it?\u201499 percent of people, who are involved in domestic violence, never break free from that cycle.\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Now, there\u2019s one percent\u2014there\u2019s repentance that can happen in somebody\u2019s life.\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Right; right.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> For somebody, who\u2019s in an abusive relationship and longing for the idea that their partner\u2014by the way, as you said, this could be a husband, who\u2019s being physically abused by his wife; right?\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> \u2014or verbally, or emotionally; yes.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Right. They hear that statistic\u2014that robs them of any hope. Is there hope for somebody? Should they even hold on to hope?\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> I think it\u2019s important to know what the research says\u2014\n\n<strong>6:00<\/strong>\n\n\u2014and, actually, that statistic came from the Family and Child Abuse Prevention Center\u2014that one percent of abusers do the deep work of changing. The National Domestic Violence Hotline also says that, statistically, it\u2019s very, very low.\n\nNow, I think\u2014if I was an abuser, and I had a choice between going through your program, Dennis, or going to jail\u2014I think I would prefer your program\u2014[Laughter]\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Yes; exactly.\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> \u2014especially since I don\u2019t look good in stripes\u2014because domestic violence is a crime. It would be interesting to follow up with that group of people, who went\u2014\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I\u2019ve had the same thought.\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> \u2014you know, and to really see and to ask their partners what they\u2019re experiencing; because it\u2019s about changing the way you <em>think<\/em>. It\u2019s not just changing how you <em>act<\/em>\u2014we have to change how we <em>think<\/em>, which will change how we act. Repentance is <em>heart<\/em> change, and it is a mind change\u2014changing how I think.\n\n<strong>7:00<\/strong>\n\nWhen repentance occurs, it\u2019s <em>obvious<\/em>\u2014you don\u2019t question it. It\u2019s evident in the fruit of the person\u2019s life, and it\u2019s lasting. It does\u2014it takes deep work to really address the way a person thinks to bring about these kind of changes.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Here\u2019s where I think some victims get tripped up; because they see what looks like real contrition and sorrow\u2014they\u2019ll see a broken spouse, who says, \u201cOh, I\u2019m so sorry.\u201d There are tears; and you look at that and go: \u201cHe really seems genuine. It really seems like it this time\u2026\u201d\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>There\u2019s a difference between sorrow and contrition and repentance.\n\n<strong>Ramona: <\/strong>That\u2019s right; that\u2019s exactly right. You can feel bad you\u2019re caught; you can feel bad there\u2019s consequences, but what are you doing with that?\n\nOften, what people are looking at\u2014what you just described there\u2014is the honeymoon phase. It\u2019s not repentance; it\u2019s the honeymoon phase. It\u2019s going to circle right back into tension building and then another explosive incident.\n\n<strong>8:00<\/strong>\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Right; so if there\u2019s been a pattern of violence\u2014and a husband is contrite, and you start to see what <em>looks<\/em> like behavior change\u2014it looks like he\u2019s thinking differently\u2014when do you start to trust that that\u2019s safe again?\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> That\u2019s one of the consequences that someone, who chooses to abuse, has to realize\u2014that they may have damaged the ability for that person to feel like they can ever fully trust again; you know? That trust may never be able to fully be put back into place. That can be, often, a consequence.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Over the years, here on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, we\u2019ve shared some <em>horrific<\/em> stories\u2014adultery, abuse, abandonment\u2014stories that had redemption. I believe the gospel is the power of God unto salvation, to the Jew first but also to the Greek and to the Gentile. I think there is hope; I really do. I think, if there is hope for any human being, it\u2019s got to be at the foot of the cross, where a guy does repent, kneels his will and his legs, and gets on his knees and says:\n\n<strong>9:00<\/strong>\n\n\u201cHelp me, God. I am a sinner.\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014and then works out his salvation with fear and trembling; right?\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Exactly; and that\u2019s kind of where I want to go for the rest of the broadcast. I want to talk about \u201cWhere do we start?\u201d I want to go to your story, first of all, to explain to people where they start.\n\nAs I was reading your book, a word kept popping off the page\u2014\u201cminimize.\u201d It clicked for me when you said, not long thereafter in the book, that the hope for the victim of domestic abuse is when she lets other people into the story\u2014\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014and tells the story of what\u2019s happening. For <em>you<\/em>, you had to go Google<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>\u2014\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> I had to Google \u201ccycle of abuse\u201d; yes.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Now, there are going to be some, who listen to our broadcast, and go, \u201cWhat?!\u201d\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> It\u2019s not that I didn\u2019t realize I was being abused\u2014I knew what was happening was wrong\u2014I just didn\u2019t <em>call<\/em> it that. It\u2019s like, when you give something a name, it changes things.\n\n<strong>10:00<\/strong>\n\nWe\u2019ll often call it by using your word, Dennis, \u201cminimizing.\u201d We\u2019ll call it a \u201ccommunication problem.\u201d We\u2019ll say it\u2019s \u201cnormal couple conflict.\u201d We may not use the word \u201cnormal,\u201d but we\u2019ll say it\u2019s \u201ccouple conflict.\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u201cAnger issues.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> \u201cAnger issues\u201d\u2014that\u2019s a big one. It\u2019s not about anger\u2014we all get angry; we all don\u2019t abuse\u2014I always try to remind people of that.\n\nBreaking the silence is the very <em>first step<\/em>.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You had somebody say to you, \u201cThis is abuse.\u201d And it was kind of like: \u201cI\u2019ve never thought it was abuse\u201d; right?\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Right; she came across the phrase, \u201ccycle of abuse\u201d; and she told me\u2014she goes, \u201cI think this is what is happening to you.\u201d That\u2019s when I got up and I googled \u201ccycle of abuse.\u201d I realized I was smack dab in the middle of a pattern\u2014I had no clue that there was a name for it.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> But you had not said to yourself, prior to that, \u201cI\u2019m being abused by my husband.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> No; I didn\u2019t use that word.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I\u2019ve got a checklist here that you actually\u2014\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> \u2014filled out.\n\n<strong>11:00<\/strong>\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> It\u2019s got, like what?\u201450\/60 descriptive phrases of physical abuse.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u201cBreaking furniture, throwing objects, breaking windshields.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014\u201ckicking, grabbing.\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cblocking a doorway so you can\u2019t leave, taking keys so you can\u2019t drive away.\u201d And they gave this to you and said, \u201cMark the ones that have happened, even if they\u2019ve just happened only once.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ramona: <\/strong>Yes; that\u2019s right.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Ninety-five percent of these are marked.\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> I know; I know. I have that evaluation form in the back of my book. Now, it\u2019s the very first thing I encourage the reader to do\u2014is to mark it for herself or himself. I\u2019ve actually added a section of \u201cspiritual abuse\u201d to this form\u2014I just expounded on it.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Could we put a copy of this list, online, at <em>FamilyLife Today\u2014<\/em>\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Sure; of course.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014so that listeners could go and just take a look?\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Yes; I think that would be great.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Print off a copy and check their own list.\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Right; and also for church leadership to get the training they need and to have something to screen and evaluate. Always to do it separately\u2014\n\n<strong>12:00 <\/strong>\n\n\u2014you don\u2019t want to ask this type of question or give this type of form when a couple is both present in the room at the same time.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> To a church leader, who didn\u2019t hear what you said earlier, what\u2019s the incidence of physical abuse that\u2019s taking place in the church today for men and women?\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Right; the prevalence rates are the same, both in and outside of the church. Statistically, it\u2019s one in four women and one in seven men will experience some form of severe physical violence in their lifetime; and one in three women, globally.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You say that, when this is happening, couple\u2019s therapy is not the place to begin.\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> No; it\u2019s dangerous.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Explain why.\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Because, number one\u2014the person, who\u2019s on the recipient end of this type of behavior of abuse, is not going to feel comfortable disclosing, \u201cOh, yes; this is what happens.\u201d\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> So we don\u2019t minimize it\u2014we admit what it is; we give it a name. We come out, and we begin to expose the story. How does the church help the person, who\u2019s at the brink of taking that step?\u2014\n\n<strong>13:00<\/strong>\n\n\u2014because they need courage and they need relationship.\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Right; what I believe the answer to that question is\u2014is they believe them. They believe\u2014that\u2019s the best and greatest gift you can give someone, who exercises the courage; because it is <em>so frightening<\/em> to share this\u2014because remember: Dr. Jekyll\/Mr. Hyde\u2014so in public, everything looks rosy. You\u2019re afraid whoever you talk to\/share this with is not going to believe you, because it doesn\u2019t look like it. So <em>believe<\/em> them.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Dennis mentioned bringing it out in the open. But before you bring it out in the open, you need to make sure you\u2019ve taken the steps to be safe with the exposure of this in your relationship.\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Well, by bringing it out in the open, I think what you meant, Dennis, is finding that safe person.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Correct.\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Sometimes, it starts with telling <em>myself<\/em>\u2014admitting to myself\u2014that this is not okay: \u201cI can\u2019t live like this; I won\u2019t live like this. I need to figure what I\u2019m going to do to get the help.\u201d When you seek someone to share it with, I always encourage people to look for people that have worked on themselves too.\n\n<strong>14:00<\/strong>\n\nNone of us are perfect, you know\u2014but someone, who is emotionally-mature\u2014\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> \u2014and who is not going to give you just a pat answer: \u201cHere\u2019s two Scriptures. Call me in the morning,\u201d-type thing.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> No doubt about it. They need to have the maturity to be a shock absorber\u2014\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014and hear it, empathize; but then, begin to slowly and methodically help that person lay out a plan. Usually, I think that\u2019s going to be more than just one person helping a victim of domestic violence get a plan. It\u2019s going to take a group of people, who are like elders in a church,\u2014\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> \u2014or trained counsellors. You know, I actually have now, on DrRamona.com\u2014I\u2019ve got a \u201cHotlines and Resources\u201d page, where I have a <em>ton<\/em> of information for people to turn to\u2014even state coalitions, where they can look to see what their particular state offers for help. You definitely want to work with someone who gets it.\n\n<strong>15:00<\/strong>\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> If you\u2019re going to be that shock absorber, you have to realize you\u2019re dealing with a delicate situation, where some women today\u2014in fact, I was shocked by this stat in your book\u2014one in five have thought about and attempted suicide.\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Yes; that\u2019s right, Dennis; 20 percent of domestic violence\u2014people, who experience domestic abuse\u2014attempt suicide. No one ever asked me, Dennis\u2014<em>no one<\/em>\u2014<em>none<\/em> of my counsellors assessed\u2014and they are <em>great<\/em> therapists; all three of them really helped me different ways\u2014but no one asked me about that. That was something that I struggled with <em>many<\/em> years. I never said a peep to anyone about it.\n\nPlease, if you are working with someone who\u2019s gone through this or is going through this, ask them and connect them with the resources.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You came to a point, where you left your husband. Was it a dangerous time?\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> It\u2019s always dangerous when you are with someone who behaves like this.\n\n<strong>16:00<\/strong>\n\nIt\u2019s unpredictable. What you can predict is some sort of inevitable harm, at some point. You just don\u2019t know how it\u2019s going to express itself.\n\nMy story is\u2014it was a six-year process. I actually said to Ben, \u201cI want you to go for batterer\u2019s intervention\u2014to be involved in that group.\u201d When I did, and I didn\u2019t back off from that, that\u2019s when he filed for a divorce\u2014trying to get me to kind of back down from my boundary.\n\nWith our own story, we were separate\u2014legally separated and physically separated for three years\u2014then, I took him back. Within four months of taking him back, he quit counselling, and he left to work overseas, and then had an affair. I explain to people: \u201cYou don\u2019t\u2019 wait for an affair.\u201d You know, in my opinion, abuse severs the marital covenant; but in my particular story, that\u2019s what happened.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I have to ask you\u2014because there are some folks, who are listening\u2014they\u2019re not victims;\u2014\n\n<strong>17:00<\/strong>\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> I know.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014they\u2019re abusers.\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And as they listen to this conversation\u2014men or women\u2014I\u2019m imagining one of two things is happening\u2014either they\u2019re getting kind of a tense knot in their stomach, and there\u2019s a little anger happening; because we\u2019re talking about them\u2014they feel like they\u2019re being exposed. They wonder who else is listening and \u201cDoes anybody know what is going on?\u201d They\u2019re starting to get angry and tense with that.\n\nOr it\u2019s possible that the Holy Spirit\u2019s at work. They\u2019re hearing what we\u2019re talking about and they\u2019re going: \u201cI know this is me. I don\u2019t know how to fix myself, but I want out of the cycle that I\u2019m in. I just don\u2019t know how to get help for that.\u201d Is there help for that?\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Yes; there\u2019s the same Holy Spirit for all of us. Regardless of what our particular situation may be, and what side of the tracks we may be on with this issue: \u201cJesus love me this I know,\u201d for all of us.\n\n<strong>18:00<\/strong>\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Where can they go to get help?\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> They can read my book to try to understand how their partner feels. Also, one of the authors that I just have tremendous respect for is Lundy Bancroft. He has written several really good books, but there is a book called <em>Should I Stay or Should I Go<\/em>? That book\u2014in his resources, he has a handout that he encourages the person, that\u2019s on the abuse sde\/being abused, to offer to their partner. It\u2019s an extensive handout for them to work through and do this deep work of really soul-searching and addressing their mindset.\n\nI have, on my website, also, a tab called \u201cClear Signs that an Abuser\u2019s Changing\u201d and \u201cClear Signs that an Abuser Is Not Changing.\u201d I also have \u201cManeuvers that an Abuser Will Use to Keep You from Leaving.\u201d It\u2019s very important you educate yourself to know what\u2019s real.\n\n<strong>19:00<\/strong>\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> We\u2019ve got a link at our website, at FamilyLifeToday.com, to your website. If folks\u2014\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Oh, good.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014want to come and find your information, they can just go to FamilyLifeToday.com. We\u2019ll point them in the right direction.\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Thank you; thank you.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> That really leads me to a question that we\u2019ve been nibbling around the edges but haven\u2019t really asked: \u201cWhat\u2019s an abuser trying to do?\u201d\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Ultimately, it is control. It goes back to wanting to have the power. There\u2019s a lot of benefits\u2014perks, if you will\u2014to abusing. It\u2019s like an adult-sized temper tantrum. I realized that myself, years down the road, that Ben was\u2014these abusive incidences, regardless of their physical or verbal or however they showed up\u2014it was him wanting to get his way. It was him throwing a fit\u2014and very dangerous and very damaging to me and our children\u2014and it\u2019s not okay. Ultimately, they want their way.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> The application of our broadcast today: \u201cIf you are a victim, you have to find a way free\u2014\n\n<strong>20:00<\/strong>\n\n\u2014and name it and be in relationship with someone, who will provide help, and hope, and help you put together a plan.\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cprotect you\u201d; yes.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u201cIf you are in an abuser, repent.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I told a guy, who was abusing his wife, and taking his wife and kids to church four or five nights a week\u2014he was hitting his wife in certain places in the summer, where you couldn\u2019t see, because clothing hid it\u2014and different places in the winter because clothing hid it. I told the guy\u2014I said, \u201cGod\u2019s going to get your attention if you don\u2019t deal uprightly with your wife.\u201d Two days later, that guy was hit by a train\u2014\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Wow!\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014physically, not in a car, by a locomotive knocking him 40 feet in the air. He landed on his backside, ripping out his pants. He lived. He came back the next time, and God had gotten his attention.\n\n<strong>21:00<\/strong>\n\nWhat I\u2019ve said at <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em> conferences, all over the country: \u201cGod has a lot of trains.\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Yes; He does.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u201cThey may not be a physical train, but you don\u2019t want to mess around with Almighty God.\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> That\u2019s right.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u201cYou established a covenant with your spouse. Get with the program.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> There\u2019s one other person I want to talk to\u2014and that\u2019s the listener, who has been\u2014perhaps, they grew up in a home, where there was abuse, or they\u2019re a survivor of abuse\u2014and you\u2019d like to provide help and hope to others. That\u2019s a life-giving effort. I\u2019d encourage you to get a copy of Dr. Ramona\u2019s book, <em>Healing Well and Living Free from an Abusive Relationship<\/em>, and get engaged and involved with others, providing help and hope for them.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> We\u2019ve got copies of the book in our <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Resource Center. You can order it from us, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call to order: 1-800-FL-TODAY. Of course, we\u2019ve got a link to your website, as well; so go to FamilyLifeToday.com if you want more information about what Dr. Ramona is doing to help people in abusive relationships.\n\n<strong>22:00<\/strong>\n\nThere is the \u201cAbuse Evaluation Assessment\u201d that\u2019s available as well. If you\u2019re wondering, \u201cAm I in a relationship that would be considered abusive?\u201d\u2014take the assessment and determine, for yourself, if what you\u2019re living with is legitimately abuse. Find all of this at FamilyLifeToday.com. If you\u2019re interested in getting a copy of the book, <em>Healing Well and Living Free from an Abusive Relationship<\/em>, order it, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call to order: 1-800-358-6329\u2014that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d\n\nDon\u2019t forget\u2014we talked about this earlier\u2014as we head toward the end of 2018, we have a special opportunity available to us. Some friends of the ministry, who have put together a $2.5 million matching-gift fund\u2014every donation we receive between now and the end of the year is going to be matched, dollar for dollar.\n\n<strong>23:00<\/strong>\n\nFor FamilyLife, that\u2019s a <em>big<\/em> deal. This will determine whether many of the initiatives we hope to move forward with in 2019 can actually happen. We\u2019re asking <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> listeners: \u201cWould you make as generous a donation as you possibly can as we approach yearend?\u201d\n\nIf you can help with a donation\u2014not only will your donation be matched, dollar for dollar\u2014but we\u2019ll also send you a copy of the movie that FamilyLife produced that was in theaters earlier this year\u2014the movie, <em>Like Arrows<\/em>. It\u2019s not available for purchase yet, but we do have copies available\u2014a limited number\u2014to send out to those of you who can make a yearend donation. Make your donation, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to make a donation. You can also mail your donation to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, along with your request for the movie, <em>Like Arrows<\/em>. Send it to Post Office\n\nBox 7111, Little Rock, AR; and our zip code is 72223.\n\n<strong>24:00<\/strong>\n\nNow, tomorrow, we\u2019re going to talk about what parents can do to help our kids develop healthy relationship skills. Knowing how to form healthy relationships is a skill our kids need to learn. We\u2019ll talk about what we can do, as parents, to help them with that. Barbara Rainey is going to join us, and we hope you can be back with us as well.\n\nI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\n\n<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry.\n\nHelp for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\nWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\n\nCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2018 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\n<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>"],"_seopress_titles_title":[""],"_seopress_titles_desc":["Dr. Ramona Probasco was emotionally and physically abused by her &quot;Christian&quot; husband. 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Ramona Probasco was emotionally and physically abused by her \"Christian\" husband regularly. Probasco tells what led her to seek help, and what she did to finally leave her abusive marriage.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2018-12-04.pdf","transcript_content":"<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Most victims of domestic violence never say anything to anyone about what they\u2019re experiencing, and Dr. Ramona Probasco says there\u2019s a reason for that.\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> It is <em>so<\/em> frightening to share this, because remember\u2014Dr. Jekyll\/Mr. Hyde\u2014so in public, everything looks rosy. You\u2019re afraid whoever you share this with is not going to believe you, because it doesn\u2019t look like it. So believe them\u2014that\u2019s the best and greatest gift you can give someone who exercised the courage\u2014believe their story.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Tuesday, December 4<sup>th<\/sup>. Our host is Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. So how can someone in a relationship, where there is domestic violence, get the help they need? We\u2019ll talk more about that today with Dr. Ramona Probasco. Stay with us.\n\nAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us.\n\n<strong>1:00<\/strong>\n\nWe often say, on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>,that we want to provide help and hope\u2014practical biblical help and hope for marriages and families\u2014and that\u2019s at the heart of what we\u2019re talking about this week.\n\n<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>It is. We have with us Dr. Ramona Probasco. Welcome back, Ramona.\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Thank you, Dennis. Thank you, Bob.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Glad you\u2019re here.\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Thank you.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> She has written a book called <em>Healing Well and Living Free from an Abusive Relationship<\/em>. She is a counsellor, who has over 20 years\u2019 experience in dealing with abusers and victims of abusers.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And it\u2019s part of your story as well\u2014\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014as we\u2019ve already heard this week.\n\n<strong>Ramona: <\/strong>Yes.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I wanted to just tell a story that happened to me, Ramona. I haven\u2019t shared this with you, because I wanted you to respond to this.\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Okay.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Barbara and I were on a flight to go to a wedding earlier this year in Houston. We got off the plane and a woman came up to me\u2014she said: \u201cI heard your voice. Are you Dennis Rainey?!\u201d\u2014this happens occasionally. It doesn\u2019t usually happen as it did in Houston; but she came up and she said: \u201cMy husband and I have been to the <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em>\u2014we <em>love<\/em> the conference.\n\n<strong>2:00<\/strong>\n\nWe listen to the broadcast, and we use the<em> Art of Marriage\u2122<\/em>.\u201d I said, \u201cReally?!\u201d\n\nShe said: \u201cYes; I\u2019ve got a story to tell you. We have a judge in our city, who deals with domestic violence. We have worked with him for him to sentence abusers to go through FamilyLife\u2019s the<em> Art of Marriage<\/em>,\u201d which is a small group video series that we created. She said: \u201cOver the past five years, we\u2019ve taken over 500 people, that have been sentenced by the judge, to go through the<em> Art of Marriage<\/em>. Many of them\u2014lots of them\u201d\u2014she said\u2014\u201chave come to saving faith in Jesus Christ.\u201d\n\nNow, I\u2019m not mentioning the city or the person for good reason; because I think that judge is <em>heroic<\/em>. I wish that every city, in every county, in every state, in the nation had a judge like that\u2014\n\n<strong>3:00<\/strong>\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014that would sentence abusers to find help and hope around the gospel of Jesus Christ. That, not only made my day, it made my <em>year<\/em>.\n\nI just want to turn to the listener, right now, and just say to you: \u201cDo you realize how important you are? Your financial gifts enable us to be able to proclaim, not only Jesus Christ and the hope that\u00a0 He offers in salvation, but also practical biblical help and hope for marriages and families.\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>And this is a critical time of year for us, as a ministry. We need to hear from listeners in December; don\u2019t we?\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> We do, Bob. I\u2019d just like to ask the listeners right now\u2014if you\u2019ve benefitted from <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, would you make a generous donation and say: \u201cI stand with you guys. I believe in this kind of radio for our nation\u201d? We\u2019re heard over 1,100 times a day, coast to coast.\n\n<strong>4:00<\/strong>\n\nWe\u2019re heard around the world on the web; but to do that, we need <em>you<\/em> to stand with us, not next week, but today.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Again, I\u2019ll just say this quickly before we continue the conversation\u2014you can make a donation, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call to donate at 1-800-FL-TODAY. In the month of December, when you make a donation, your donation is going to be matched, dollar for dollar, up to a total of $2.5 million. We\u2019ve had some friends of the ministry that have put that matching-gift fund together, and we want to take full advantage of that.\n\nIn addition, when you make a yearend donation, we\u2019d like to say, \u201cThank you,\u201d by sending you a DVD of the movie that FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> produced earlier this year called <em>Like Arrows<\/em>. The movie is not yet available for sale\u2014it will be out early in 2019\u2014but you can get a copy today when you donate to support this ministry. Make a donation, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to get your copy of the movie, <em>Like Arrows. <\/em>\n\n<strong>5:00<\/strong>\n\nThanks, in advance, for whatever you\u2019re able to do to help us with our yearend financial needs.\n\nDennis, the story you shared about people getting sentenced to go through the <em>Art of Marriage<\/em>\u2014there is hope for people who are experiencing domestic violence; but at the same time, I know Dr. Ramona, you quote\u2014what is it?\u201499 percent of people, who are involved in domestic violence, never break free from that cycle.\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Now, there\u2019s one percent\u2014there\u2019s repentance that can happen in somebody\u2019s life.\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Right; right.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> For somebody, who\u2019s in an abusive relationship and longing for the idea that their partner\u2014by the way, as you said, this could be a husband, who\u2019s being physically abused by his wife; right?\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> \u2014or verbally, or emotionally; yes.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Right. They hear that statistic\u2014that robs them of any hope. Is there hope for somebody? Should they even hold on to hope?\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> I think it\u2019s important to know what the research says\u2014\n\n<strong>6:00<\/strong>\n\n\u2014and, actually, that statistic came from the Family and Child Abuse Prevention Center\u2014that one percent of abusers do the deep work of changing. The National Domestic Violence Hotline also says that, statistically, it\u2019s very, very low.\n\nNow, I think\u2014if I was an abuser, and I had a choice between going through your program, Dennis, or going to jail\u2014I think I would prefer your program\u2014[Laughter]\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Yes; exactly.\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> \u2014especially since I don\u2019t look good in stripes\u2014because domestic violence is a crime. It would be interesting to follow up with that group of people, who went\u2014\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I\u2019ve had the same thought.\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> \u2014you know, and to really see and to ask their partners what they\u2019re experiencing; because it\u2019s about changing the way you <em>think<\/em>. It\u2019s not just changing how you <em>act<\/em>\u2014we have to change how we <em>think<\/em>, which will change how we act. Repentance is <em>heart<\/em> change, and it is a mind change\u2014changing how I think.\n\n<strong>7:00<\/strong>\n\nWhen repentance occurs, it\u2019s <em>obvious<\/em>\u2014you don\u2019t question it. It\u2019s evident in the fruit of the person\u2019s life, and it\u2019s lasting. It does\u2014it takes deep work to really address the way a person thinks to bring about these kind of changes.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Here\u2019s where I think some victims get tripped up; because they see what looks like real contrition and sorrow\u2014they\u2019ll see a broken spouse, who says, \u201cOh, I\u2019m so sorry.\u201d There are tears; and you look at that and go: \u201cHe really seems genuine. It really seems like it this time\u2026\u201d\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>There\u2019s a difference between sorrow and contrition and repentance.\n\n<strong>Ramona: <\/strong>That\u2019s right; that\u2019s exactly right. You can feel bad you\u2019re caught; you can feel bad there\u2019s consequences, but what are you doing with that?\n\nOften, what people are looking at\u2014what you just described there\u2014is the honeymoon phase. It\u2019s not repentance; it\u2019s the honeymoon phase. It\u2019s going to circle right back into tension building and then another explosive incident.\n\n<strong>8:00<\/strong>\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Right; so if there\u2019s been a pattern of violence\u2014and a husband is contrite, and you start to see what <em>looks<\/em> like behavior change\u2014it looks like he\u2019s thinking differently\u2014when do you start to trust that that\u2019s safe again?\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> That\u2019s one of the consequences that someone, who chooses to abuse, has to realize\u2014that they may have damaged the ability for that person to feel like they can ever fully trust again; you know? That trust may never be able to fully be put back into place. That can be, often, a consequence.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Over the years, here on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, we\u2019ve shared some <em>horrific<\/em> stories\u2014adultery, abuse, abandonment\u2014stories that had redemption. I believe the gospel is the power of God unto salvation, to the Jew first but also to the Greek and to the Gentile. I think there is hope; I really do. I think, if there is hope for any human being, it\u2019s got to be at the foot of the cross, where a guy does repent, kneels his will and his legs, and gets on his knees and says:\n\n<strong>9:00<\/strong>\n\n\u201cHelp me, God. I am a sinner.\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014and then works out his salvation with fear and trembling; right?\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Exactly; and that\u2019s kind of where I want to go for the rest of the broadcast. I want to talk about \u201cWhere do we start?\u201d I want to go to your story, first of all, to explain to people where they start.\n\nAs I was reading your book, a word kept popping off the page\u2014\u201cminimize.\u201d It clicked for me when you said, not long thereafter in the book, that the hope for the victim of domestic abuse is when she lets other people into the story\u2014\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014and tells the story of what\u2019s happening. For <em>you<\/em>, you had to go Google<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>\u2014\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> I had to Google \u201ccycle of abuse\u201d; yes.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Now, there are going to be some, who listen to our broadcast, and go, \u201cWhat?!\u201d\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> It\u2019s not that I didn\u2019t realize I was being abused\u2014I knew what was happening was wrong\u2014I just didn\u2019t <em>call<\/em> it that. It\u2019s like, when you give something a name, it changes things.\n\n<strong>10:00<\/strong>\n\nWe\u2019ll often call it by using your word, Dennis, \u201cminimizing.\u201d We\u2019ll call it a \u201ccommunication problem.\u201d We\u2019ll say it\u2019s \u201cnormal couple conflict.\u201d We may not use the word \u201cnormal,\u201d but we\u2019ll say it\u2019s \u201ccouple conflict.\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u201cAnger issues.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> \u201cAnger issues\u201d\u2014that\u2019s a big one. It\u2019s not about anger\u2014we all get angry; we all don\u2019t abuse\u2014I always try to remind people of that.\n\nBreaking the silence is the very <em>first step<\/em>.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You had somebody say to you, \u201cThis is abuse.\u201d And it was kind of like: \u201cI\u2019ve never thought it was abuse\u201d; right?\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Right; she came across the phrase, \u201ccycle of abuse\u201d; and she told me\u2014she goes, \u201cI think this is what is happening to you.\u201d That\u2019s when I got up and I googled \u201ccycle of abuse.\u201d I realized I was smack dab in the middle of a pattern\u2014I had no clue that there was a name for it.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> But you had not said to yourself, prior to that, \u201cI\u2019m being abused by my husband.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> No; I didn\u2019t use that word.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I\u2019ve got a checklist here that you actually\u2014\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> \u2014filled out.\n\n<strong>11:00<\/strong>\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> It\u2019s got, like what?\u201450\/60 descriptive phrases of physical abuse.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u201cBreaking furniture, throwing objects, breaking windshields.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014\u201ckicking, grabbing.\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cblocking a doorway so you can\u2019t leave, taking keys so you can\u2019t drive away.\u201d And they gave this to you and said, \u201cMark the ones that have happened, even if they\u2019ve just happened only once.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ramona: <\/strong>Yes; that\u2019s right.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Ninety-five percent of these are marked.\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> I know; I know. I have that evaluation form in the back of my book. Now, it\u2019s the very first thing I encourage the reader to do\u2014is to mark it for herself or himself. I\u2019ve actually added a section of \u201cspiritual abuse\u201d to this form\u2014I just expounded on it.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Could we put a copy of this list, online, at <em>FamilyLife Today\u2014<\/em>\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Sure; of course.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014so that listeners could go and just take a look?\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Yes; I think that would be great.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Print off a copy and check their own list.\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Right; and also for church leadership to get the training they need and to have something to screen and evaluate. Always to do it separately\u2014\n\n<strong>12:00 <\/strong>\n\n\u2014you don\u2019t want to ask this type of question or give this type of form when a couple is both present in the room at the same time.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> To a church leader, who didn\u2019t hear what you said earlier, what\u2019s the incidence of physical abuse that\u2019s taking place in the church today for men and women?\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Right; the prevalence rates are the same, both in and outside of the church. Statistically, it\u2019s one in four women and one in seven men will experience some form of severe physical violence in their lifetime; and one in three women, globally.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You say that, when this is happening, couple\u2019s therapy is not the place to begin.\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> No; it\u2019s dangerous.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Explain why.\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Because, number one\u2014the person, who\u2019s on the recipient end of this type of behavior of abuse, is not going to feel comfortable disclosing, \u201cOh, yes; this is what happens.\u201d\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> So we don\u2019t minimize it\u2014we admit what it is; we give it a name. We come out, and we begin to expose the story. How does the church help the person, who\u2019s at the brink of taking that step?\u2014\n\n<strong>13:00<\/strong>\n\n\u2014because they need courage and they need relationship.\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Right; what I believe the answer to that question is\u2014is they believe them. They believe\u2014that\u2019s the best and greatest gift you can give someone, who exercises the courage; because it is <em>so frightening<\/em> to share this\u2014because remember: Dr. Jekyll\/Mr. Hyde\u2014so in public, everything looks rosy. You\u2019re afraid whoever you talk to\/share this with is not going to believe you, because it doesn\u2019t look like it. So <em>believe<\/em> them.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Dennis mentioned bringing it out in the open. But before you bring it out in the open, you need to make sure you\u2019ve taken the steps to be safe with the exposure of this in your relationship.\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Well, by bringing it out in the open, I think what you meant, Dennis, is finding that safe person.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Correct.\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Sometimes, it starts with telling <em>myself<\/em>\u2014admitting to myself\u2014that this is not okay: \u201cI can\u2019t live like this; I won\u2019t live like this. I need to figure what I\u2019m going to do to get the help.\u201d When you seek someone to share it with, I always encourage people to look for people that have worked on themselves too.\n\n<strong>14:00<\/strong>\n\nNone of us are perfect, you know\u2014but someone, who is emotionally-mature\u2014\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> \u2014and who is not going to give you just a pat answer: \u201cHere\u2019s two Scriptures. Call me in the morning,\u201d-type thing.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> No doubt about it. They need to have the maturity to be a shock absorber\u2014\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014and hear it, empathize; but then, begin to slowly and methodically help that person lay out a plan. Usually, I think that\u2019s going to be more than just one person helping a victim of domestic violence get a plan. It\u2019s going to take a group of people, who are like elders in a church,\u2014\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> \u2014or trained counsellors. You know, I actually have now, on DrRamona.com\u2014I\u2019ve got a \u201cHotlines and Resources\u201d page, where I have a <em>ton<\/em> of information for people to turn to\u2014even state coalitions, where they can look to see what their particular state offers for help. You definitely want to work with someone who gets it.\n\n<strong>15:00<\/strong>\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> If you\u2019re going to be that shock absorber, you have to realize you\u2019re dealing with a delicate situation, where some women today\u2014in fact, I was shocked by this stat in your book\u2014one in five have thought about and attempted suicide.\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Yes; that\u2019s right, Dennis; 20 percent of domestic violence\u2014people, who experience domestic abuse\u2014attempt suicide. No one ever asked me, Dennis\u2014<em>no one<\/em>\u2014<em>none<\/em> of my counsellors assessed\u2014and they are <em>great<\/em> therapists; all three of them really helped me different ways\u2014but no one asked me about that. That was something that I struggled with <em>many<\/em> years. I never said a peep to anyone about it.\n\nPlease, if you are working with someone who\u2019s gone through this or is going through this, ask them and connect them with the resources.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You came to a point, where you left your husband. Was it a dangerous time?\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> It\u2019s always dangerous when you are with someone who behaves like this.\n\n<strong>16:00<\/strong>\n\nIt\u2019s unpredictable. What you can predict is some sort of inevitable harm, at some point. You just don\u2019t know how it\u2019s going to express itself.\n\nMy story is\u2014it was a six-year process. I actually said to Ben, \u201cI want you to go for batterer\u2019s intervention\u2014to be involved in that group.\u201d When I did, and I didn\u2019t back off from that, that\u2019s when he filed for a divorce\u2014trying to get me to kind of back down from my boundary.\n\nWith our own story, we were separate\u2014legally separated and physically separated for three years\u2014then, I took him back. Within four months of taking him back, he quit counselling, and he left to work overseas, and then had an affair. I explain to people: \u201cYou don\u2019t\u2019 wait for an affair.\u201d You know, in my opinion, abuse severs the marital covenant; but in my particular story, that\u2019s what happened.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I have to ask you\u2014because there are some folks, who are listening\u2014they\u2019re not victims;\u2014\n\n<strong>17:00<\/strong>\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> I know.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014they\u2019re abusers.\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And as they listen to this conversation\u2014men or women\u2014I\u2019m imagining one of two things is happening\u2014either they\u2019re getting kind of a tense knot in their stomach, and there\u2019s a little anger happening; because we\u2019re talking about them\u2014they feel like they\u2019re being exposed. They wonder who else is listening and \u201cDoes anybody know what is going on?\u201d They\u2019re starting to get angry and tense with that.\n\nOr it\u2019s possible that the Holy Spirit\u2019s at work. They\u2019re hearing what we\u2019re talking about and they\u2019re going: \u201cI know this is me. I don\u2019t know how to fix myself, but I want out of the cycle that I\u2019m in. I just don\u2019t know how to get help for that.\u201d Is there help for that?\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Yes; there\u2019s the same Holy Spirit for all of us. Regardless of what our particular situation may be, and what side of the tracks we may be on with this issue: \u201cJesus love me this I know,\u201d for all of us.\n\n<strong>18:00<\/strong>\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Where can they go to get help?\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> They can read my book to try to understand how their partner feels. Also, one of the authors that I just have tremendous respect for is Lundy Bancroft. He has written several really good books, but there is a book called <em>Should I Stay or Should I Go<\/em>? That book\u2014in his resources, he has a handout that he encourages the person, that\u2019s on the abuse sde\/being abused, to offer to their partner. It\u2019s an extensive handout for them to work through and do this deep work of really soul-searching and addressing their mindset.\n\nI have, on my website, also, a tab called \u201cClear Signs that an Abuser\u2019s Changing\u201d and \u201cClear Signs that an Abuser Is Not Changing.\u201d I also have \u201cManeuvers that an Abuser Will Use to Keep You from Leaving.\u201d It\u2019s very important you educate yourself to know what\u2019s real.\n\n<strong>19:00<\/strong>\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> We\u2019ve got a link at our website, at FamilyLifeToday.com, to your website. If folks\u2014\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Oh, good.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014want to come and find your information, they can just go to FamilyLifeToday.com. We\u2019ll point them in the right direction.\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Thank you; thank you.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> That really leads me to a question that we\u2019ve been nibbling around the edges but haven\u2019t really asked: \u201cWhat\u2019s an abuser trying to do?\u201d\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Ultimately, it is control. It goes back to wanting to have the power. There\u2019s a lot of benefits\u2014perks, if you will\u2014to abusing. It\u2019s like an adult-sized temper tantrum. I realized that myself, years down the road, that Ben was\u2014these abusive incidences, regardless of their physical or verbal or however they showed up\u2014it was him wanting to get his way. It was him throwing a fit\u2014and very dangerous and very damaging to me and our children\u2014and it\u2019s not okay. Ultimately, they want their way.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> The application of our broadcast today: \u201cIf you are a victim, you have to find a way free\u2014\n\n<strong>20:00<\/strong>\n\n\u2014and name it and be in relationship with someone, who will provide help, and hope, and help you put together a plan.\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cprotect you\u201d; yes.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u201cIf you are in an abuser, repent.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I told a guy, who was abusing his wife, and taking his wife and kids to church four or five nights a week\u2014he was hitting his wife in certain places in the summer, where you couldn\u2019t see, because clothing hid it\u2014and different places in the winter because clothing hid it. I told the guy\u2014I said, \u201cGod\u2019s going to get your attention if you don\u2019t deal uprightly with your wife.\u201d Two days later, that guy was hit by a train\u2014\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Wow!\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014physically, not in a car, by a locomotive knocking him 40 feet in the air. He landed on his backside, ripping out his pants. He lived. He came back the next time, and God had gotten his attention.\n\n<strong>21:00<\/strong>\n\nWhat I\u2019ve said at <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em> conferences, all over the country: \u201cGod has a lot of trains.\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Yes; He does.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u201cThey may not be a physical train, but you don\u2019t want to mess around with Almighty God.\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> That\u2019s right.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u201cYou established a covenant with your spouse. Get with the program.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> There\u2019s one other person I want to talk to\u2014and that\u2019s the listener, who has been\u2014perhaps, they grew up in a home, where there was abuse, or they\u2019re a survivor of abuse\u2014and you\u2019d like to provide help and hope to others. That\u2019s a life-giving effort. I\u2019d encourage you to get a copy of Dr. Ramona\u2019s book, <em>Healing Well and Living Free from an Abusive Relationship<\/em>, and get engaged and involved with others, providing help and hope for them.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> We\u2019ve got copies of the book in our <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Resource Center. You can order it from us, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call to order: 1-800-FL-TODAY. Of course, we\u2019ve got a link to your website, as well; so go to FamilyLifeToday.com if you want more information about what Dr. Ramona is doing to help people in abusive relationships.\n\n<strong>22:00<\/strong>\n\nThere is the \u201cAbuse Evaluation Assessment\u201d that\u2019s available as well. If you\u2019re wondering, \u201cAm I in a relationship that would be considered abusive?\u201d\u2014take the assessment and determine, for yourself, if what you\u2019re living with is legitimately abuse. Find all of this at FamilyLifeToday.com. If you\u2019re interested in getting a copy of the book, <em>Healing Well and Living Free from an Abusive Relationship<\/em>, order it, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call to order: 1-800-358-6329\u2014that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d\n\nDon\u2019t forget\u2014we talked about this earlier\u2014as we head toward the end of 2018, we have a special opportunity available to us. Some friends of the ministry, who have put together a $2.5 million matching-gift fund\u2014every donation we receive between now and the end of the year is going to be matched, dollar for dollar.\n\n<strong>23:00<\/strong>\n\nFor FamilyLife, that\u2019s a <em>big<\/em> deal. This will determine whether many of the initiatives we hope to move forward with in 2019 can actually happen. We\u2019re asking <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> listeners: \u201cWould you make as generous a donation as you possibly can as we approach yearend?\u201d\n\nIf you can help with a donation\u2014not only will your donation be matched, dollar for dollar\u2014but we\u2019ll also send you a copy of the movie that FamilyLife produced that was in theaters earlier this year\u2014the movie, <em>Like Arrows<\/em>. It\u2019s not available for purchase yet, but we do have copies available\u2014a limited number\u2014to send out to those of you who can make a yearend donation. Make your donation, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to make a donation. You can also mail your donation to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, along with your request for the movie, <em>Like Arrows<\/em>. Send it to Post Office\n\nBox 7111, Little Rock, AR; and our zip code is 72223.\n\n<strong>24:00<\/strong>\n\nNow, tomorrow, we\u2019re going to talk about what parents can do to help our kids develop healthy relationship skills. Knowing how to form healthy relationships is a skill our kids need to learn. We\u2019ll talk about what we can do, as parents, to help them with that. Barbara Rainey is going to join us, and we hope you can be back with us as well.\n\nI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\n\n<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry.\n\nHelp for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\nWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\n\nCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2018 FamilyLife. 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