{"id":300477,"date":"2018-12-03T12:00:00","date_gmt":"2018-12-03T17:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/the-big-secret\/"},"modified":"2024-10-07T22:41:39","modified_gmt":"2024-10-08T02:41:39","slug":"the-big-secret","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/the-big-secret\/","title":{"rendered":"The Big Secret"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>guest: Ramona Probasco | Series: Living Free From Abusive Relationships | Are you in an abusive relationship? Download Ramona Probasco&#8217;s Abuse Evaluation Assessmentwww.DrRamona.com<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Dr. Ramona Probasco tells what it&#8217;s like to be married to an abusive man. Probasco provides insight into why abused wives don&#8217;t leave their husbands sooner, and how the abuse affected her children.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"Dr. Ramona Probasco provides insight into why abused wives don&#039;t leave their husbands sooner, and how the abuse affected her children.","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2018-12-03.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:27:03","filesize":"24.77M","filesize_raw":"25970154","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2848,2873],"tags":[2949,4398,4647,4396],"podcast_series":[7270],"cwp_profile":[8867],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-300477","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-cultural-issues","category-mental-and-emotional-issues","tag-abuse","tag-abusive-marriage","tag-emotional","tag-physical-abuse","podcast_series-living-free-from-abusive-relationships","cwp_profile-ramona-probasco","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/300477\/the-big-secret","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/300477\/the-big-secret","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"LDFdnSCTJ3\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/the-big-secret\/\">The Big Secret<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/the-big-secret\/embed\/#?secret=LDFdnSCTJ3\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;The Big Secret&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"LDFdnSCTJ3\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2018-12-03.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2018-12-03.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<strong>Bob:<\/strong> For 16 years, Ramona Probasco was married to an abusive husband who threatened her if she ever tried to expose their relationship.\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Ben would say to me, \u201cIf you ever call the police, someone will be dead.\u201d I took him serious\u2014he had a real attraction to guns and buying guns. He would buy them; I would hide them. So\u2014and because of his military training, I believed him. I believed what he said, and I didn\u2019t want to test that.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Monday, December 3<sup>rd<\/sup>. Our host is Dennis Rainey, and I\u2019m Bob Lepine. Domestic violence is happening in more marriages than most of us realize. Ramona Probasco says victims need wisdom to know how to find safety if they find themselves in that kind of relationship. We\u2019ll talk more about that today. Stay with us.\n\nAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us.\n\n<strong>1:00<\/strong>\n\nWe\u2019re going to get into a tough subject today.<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> A very tough subject. We have the author of a book called <em>Healing Well and Living Free from an Abusive Relationship<\/em>. I like the subtitle\u2014this has all kinds of hope: <em>From Victim to Survivor to Overcomer<\/em>. Dr. Ramona Probasco joins us on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Ramona, thanks for joining us.\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Thank you. It\u2019s a pleasure to be here. Thank you both.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Thanks for this book\u2014I really appreciate that.\n\nDr. Probasco is a marriage and family therapist\u2014certified Domestic Violence Counselor. She\u2019s been a counselor and a therapist for over 20 years\u2014a sought-after speaker\u2014and now, she\u2019s authored this book.\n\nI\u2019ve got to tell you\u2014I was riveted by the story. I was, once again, reminded of how many of our listeners find themselves in life-threatening, <em>horrific<\/em>, dangerous situations.\n\n<strong>2:00<\/strong>\n\nI want to take you to year 14 of your marriage to Ben\u2014that\u2019s not his real name\u2014but you were married, and you found yourself in an <em>incredible<\/em> situation. Explain what happened that day and where your husband, ultimately, took you in that experience.\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Well, the title of that chapter is \u201cSomething Broke Inside Me.\u201d It\u2019s the moment when there was a shift from me hoping that Ben was going to change and the miracle was going to be that our marriage would be saved to focusing on myself\u2014me changing\/me healing. The miracle was going to be that God was going to give me the strength to do what I needed to do, not only to heal, but to leave.\n\nAt that particular time, Dennis, we were preparing to go to speak at a small conference\u2014I guess you could say. We were two of the featured speakers that evening, and it was getting late.\n\n<strong>3:00<\/strong>\n\nBen still was not dressed or ready to leave, and I was getting nervous. I was putting my makeup on; and I said to Ben\u2014I said: \u201cBen, we\u2019re going to be late. Please hurry up. Get dressed.\u201d He was ignoring me; and as often would happen in order to punish me\/get back at me, he would not do whatever it was I was hoping for.\n\nIn this case, I was hoping to be on time and to be at this event and to be prepared. It went very quickly from 0 to 100 fast. At the moment, I was in the bathroom. Actually, I was sitting on the toilet to be very honest. Ben came up to me\u2014he grabbed my head, and he drove his thumbs into my eye sockets.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Wow.\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> You know, to this day, I can remember the horrible feeling of his thumbs rolling around in my eyes. He left, as he often would after some sort of physical assault or even verbal\u2014didn\u2019t always have to be physical\u2014he would leave, or he would go sleep somewhere.\n\n<strong>4:00<\/strong>\n\nI run into the shower, and my daughter came in. She\u2019s like: \u201cMama, <em>leave<\/em>. You can leave. You can do it this time. We can do it together.\u201d\n\nFor several days, my vision was not sharp\u2014I guess that\u2019s the best way to describe it. Around my eye socket was like bruised\u2014felt bruised. At that moment, there was like a shift in my vision, internally, where my internal vision came in 20\/20. I saw that this was not going to work.\n\nA couple days later, Ben\u2014as often would be the case in many situations and relationships like this\u2014the abuser will use physical connection or intimacy to get the person to circle back into the relationship and try again\u2014try harder\/fight for us\u2014things like that. That was often the case with us. When Ben approached me, I just said: \u201cI can\u2019t.\n\n<strong>5:00<\/strong>\n\n\u201cI can\u2019t do that this time.\u201d He said, \u201cWell, why not?\u201d I said, \u201cBecause this time, something broke inside me.\u201d It was an <em>emotional<\/em> breakage of: \u201cI just can\u2019t come back, emotionally.\u201d That set the stage for several years of moving forward and eventually divorcing.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Had there been physical violence against you throughout the marriage?\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> It actually started three years\u2014a little over three years into the marriage. When it came to money\u2014we fought a lot about money. I always wanted to save. He would always say, \u201cYou\u2019re like a little chipmunk always saving the nuts.\u201d I thought, \u201cWell, there is some wisdom with the chipmunks; because when winter comes, they need to eat!\u201d [Laughter]\n\nHe would purchase things without, you know, us discussing it\u2014and expensive items. One time, he even bought a house without me knowing. I know that sounds crazy, but there is not enough time to answer that; so I had agreed to it, and he started paying the bills.\n\n<strong>6:00<\/strong>\n\nWell, I found out, through the mail, that he had not paid the electric bill. There was a pink slip, and our electricity was going to get shut off. His mother called\u2014it was a Saturday morning, and she called like she often did. I told her about it\u2014this was three years into the marriage. After I got off the phone, he was just <em>furious<\/em> that I had shared that with her. He picked me up and threw me against our bed\u2014the headboard of our bed. That was the first physical assault.\n\nPrior to that\u2014in the dating years and in the first couple years of our marriage\u2014there was name calling, swearing at me, not keeping his word, backing out of commitments last minute.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> That was what happened, physically. There were also things that you said that happened, emotionally.\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Spiritually, this was what was surprising to me. He claimed to be a follower and a believer in Jesus Christ.\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Yes; that\u2019s right, Dennis. I was raised\u2014my parents sent us to Catholic school, and that really prepared me to understand there is a God.\n\n<strong>7:00<\/strong>\n\nI personally did not accept Christ as my Lord and Savior until I was 17 years old. It was Ben who shared with me, early on in our dating years\u2014he had accepted Christ\u2014that\u2019s what he told me. He was the first person to ask me about Jesus.\n\nSo that, for many years, really confused me. I just didn\u2019t\u2014I didn\u2019t understand God\u2019s heart for this matter. I just really believed that the more I prayed the better it would get; but it was the more I prayed\u2014what I was wanting the answer to be didn\u2019t end up being the answer\u2014but it was the perfect answer for our situation, and God truly did save me and my kids.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> How did you process that? Here is a man, who has professed the name of Jesus Christ\u2014has been used by God as an instrument to help you find salvation, peace with God, forgiveness\u2014and yet, it\u2019s like he\u2019s a Jekyll and Hyde.\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>8:00<\/strong>\n\nIt was <em>hard<\/em> because the confusion with Ben, for me, caused confusion with God. I can remember one particular time when I came home, and I was the only one at home. The kids were gone, and Ben was out. It was the middle of the day, and I just was literally screaming at the top of my lungs at God. I mean, I\u2019m just going to be very honest. I was just like, \u201cGod, why are You not answering my prayers?!\u201d\u2014it just wasn\u2019t getting any better. It would <em>seem<\/em> like it was \u201cgetting better,\u201d but it never lasted. It always went back to same old\u2026same old...\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You said the physical violence didn\u2019t occur until three years into the marriage; but some of the things you described, during the dating years or in the first three years before it got physical, are things that\u2014if I was sitting with a young woman today, who said: \u201cWell, he calls me these names; and he gets angry like this... One time, he kicked the refrigerator really hard,\u201d\u2014\n\n<strong>9:00<\/strong>\n\n\u2014I would say to her, \u201cThese are <em>significant<\/em> warning signs.\u201d You\u2019d say the same thing today; right?\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Right. Oh, for sure; that\u2019s what I teach now.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> So, the question is: \u201cWhen that\u2019s happening to you, were there not little red flags popping up in your head, going, \u2018Warning!\u2019?\u2019\u201d\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Yes; \u201cWarning!\u201d \u201cWarning!\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Exactly; there <em>were<\/em> those feelings. There were times where\u2014especially after Ben proposed to me\u2014that I felt like it was going too fast, too quickly, too soon; and I would want to kind of slow it down. When I would do that, he would threaten to break up with me; or when we were engaged, he would say: \u201cJust give the ring back. It\u2019s over.\u201d\n\nPart of my story is\u2014when I accepted the Lord, my dad thought I had joined a cult. He was a very strict Catholic. He was from old country Europe, escaped from a Communist country when he was a young boy. He thought I joined a cult. He basically told me I needed to stop\u2014\n\n<strong>10:00<\/strong>\n\n\u2014I was attending Student Venture in high school\u2014I needed to either stop going to that group or I needed to leave.\n\nSo, October of my senior year, I moved out. I didn\u2019t have\u2014my family wasn\u2019t really involved\u2014I was estranged, because of my professed Christianity. Ben was right there; you know?\u2014he was there for me. He bought me\u2014his family sent me a winter coat when it got cold. He was just\u2014he was there, so I kind of dismissed\u2014I minimized the things that made me concerned.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I want to speak to the singles, who are listening to this broadcast, and the moms and dads, who may be watching their daughter in a dating relationship; and they have some suspicions. If you are seeing behavior that is not appropriate, or even approaches the line of somebody being out of control of their anger or abusive language toward your daughter, you\u2019ve got to step in!\n\n<strong>11:00<\/strong>\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> To love somebody enough to say, \u201cAre you really sure about this?\u201d What I hear you saying\u2014you were isolated. You didn\u2019t have your family, and I don\u2019t hear friends\u2019 voices coming in to protect you at a time, which could have saved you 14\/15 years of pain.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Well, I\u2019ve often said to young women: \u201cWatch how the guy you are dating treats the waitress and how he treats his mother\u2014\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cbecause he may be charming to you\u201d\u2014and let\u2019s be honest: Abusers are often <em>unusually<\/em> charming\u2014\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> That\u2019s exactly right.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014people. Ben was\u2014he was a sweep-you-off-your-feet charmer; wasn\u2019t he?\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Right; very witty, funny; yes.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes. So, you can see how that side\u2014you\u2019re thinking to yourself, \u201cIf he was that all the time, this would be wonderful.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> But then, to have\u2014and I imagine, for you, it was every couple of weeks\u2014maybe, more often than that\u2014there would be an episode; something would come up.\n\n<strong>12:00<\/strong>\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> It definitely follows a pattern. It\u2019s referred to as the cycle of abuse, where you feel tension. You\u2019re walking on egg shells; you\u2019re trying to keep the peace. Then, there will be some sort of explosive event\u2014it doesn\u2019t even really matter what it is\u2014but there will be an explosive incident. The person will experience verbal, emotional, physical, [or] sexual assault of some kind, which that phase doesn\u2019t last long at all. Then, it loops right into the honeymoon phase, where there are promises of change\/counseling: \u201cI\u2019ll go to AA,\u201d \u201cIt\u2019ll never happen again,\u201d\u2014gift giving.\n\nFor me, there was never any gift giving, typically. He would, sometimes, go to counseling; but he wasn\u2019t committed to it. It wasn\u2019t true repentance. Few abusers change. I mean, statistically, the research shows one percent of abusers do the deep work of really changing. I like to use the word, \u201c repentance\u201d; because that\u2019s what it is\u2014a real 180-change of mind, heart, and how they think.\n\nAbuse is not about anger.\n\n<strong>13:00<\/strong>\n\nWe all get angry; we don\u2019t all abuse. Abuse is about a mentality; and primarily, it\u2019s driven by lack of empathy and entitlement.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> There was this big secret that you referred to in your book taking place. The way you kind of couched it was: You went to church. You were there among all the believers, singing the praise hymns\u2014but a big secret.\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> That\u2019s right.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I want you to comment on two things. First of all, the time when he warned you that, if you called the police\u2014\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> \u2014someone would be killed; someone would die; yes.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014someone would be dead; but then, I want you to comment, after you comment on that, about the prevalence of this within the Christian community.\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Yes; well, to answer your first question. Often, people ask, \u201cWell, why didn\u2019t you just leave?\u201d or \u201cWhy didn\u2019t you call the police?\u201d Here\u2019s the truth\u2014it is much easier to leave a non-abusive partner than it is to leave an abusive one\u2014\n\n<strong>14:00<\/strong>\n\n\u2014they don\u2019t allow themselves to be left easily. As a matter of fact, the fatality rate actually goes up by 75 percent when a victim attempts to leave or is leaving; so it is very dangerous when you leave\u2014so that\u2019s the first thing.\n\nBen would say to me, \u201cIf you ever call the police, someone will be dead.\u201d I took him serious\u2014he had a real attraction to guns and buying guns. He would buy them; I would hide them. I\u2014and because of his military training, I believed him. I believed what he said; I didn\u2019t want to test that.\n\nPlus, there was the fact of\u2014even with the person, who is being victimized like this, there is also the duality of presentation\u2014how I presented in public, how we presented in public. How he presented\u2014he had a Jekyll and Hyde. Well, I had a presentation of altogether perfect. I was trying, with all my might, to <em>maintain<\/em> that, hoping that I could somehow fix it behind the scenes.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You said your daughter came into you after Ben had put his fingers in your eye and said, \u201cYou can leave.\u201d\n\n<strong>15:00<\/strong>\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> How old was she?\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> About 11; yes.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> She <em>knew<\/em> Daddy hurt Mommy.\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Was this just kind of common?\u2014her experience that Daddy hurt Mommy?\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> You know, when you think, \u201cWell, your kids aren\u2019t hearing anything; because you are arguing behind closed doors,\u201d\u2014or whatever\u2014that is not true. They know. As a matter of fact, my son\u2014when he was a teenager, we were talking. I don\u2019t remember what the question was, but his answer\u2014in his answer\u2014he <em>literally<\/em> described the cycle of abuse, without using the correct terminology, in his own adolescent words. All three of the kids were fully aware of it, because I would leave with them many times.\n\nOn average, a victim will leave six to eight times before they leave for good. I would take the kids a couple states away. We would go to the beach; we would stay there, hoping for \u201cBen to cool off\u201d-type thing.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> For how long?\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> The longest time was almost a week, but there was a lot of pressure to stay married.\n\n<strong>16:00<\/strong>\n\nI came from a family, where there was no divorce; and there just wasn\u2019t support. There was not, initially. Now, my folks are very supportive. They are some of the biggest advocates of my story and my book, and my whole family knows Jesus now. My dad has apologized, through tears. I mean, he still will cry about it and say, \u201cI\u2019m sorry,\u201d\u2014you know\u2014\u201cfor what I did\u201d; but they all know the Lord. So, that\u2019s a good ending there.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> So, back to the question of incidents within the Christian community\/in the church. Are there stats out about this?\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Yes; as a matter of fact, when I was doing my doctoral research, I studied, specifically, domestic violence and faith-based relationships. I wrote a 300-page dissertation out of this research. In my research, I created a 50-question survey\u2014an anonymous survey\u2014that I gave to over 500 women from a mega-church in the United States\u2014\n\n<strong>17:00<\/strong>\n\n\u2014asking them questions related to this topic of what\u2019s going on behind closed doors. I also surveyed\u2014this portion was not anonymous\u2014but 30 churches \/ 30 mega-churches, within the United States, to see what they are doing in response to domestic abuse within their congregation.\n\nWhat I found from the women is that, what is happening outside the church, is also happening within faith-based communities. As a matter of fact, the prevalence rates of violence\u2014meaning one in four women \/ one in seven men experience some form of <em>severe<\/em> physical violence in their lifetime, within the United States; and one in three women, globally. Statistically, the prevalence rates were the same. They were reflected the same\u2014with the exception of spiritual abuse within faith-based communities.\n\nAs far as the churches were concerned, what I found is\u2014none of them, at the time, had anything for abusers.\n\n<strong>18:00<\/strong>\n\nThere was no support group, and these are mega-churches\u2014there were 5,000 members or more coming on a weekly basis\u2014these are big churches. Some of them did have something for victims. One of the largest churches in the United States said to\u2014and this church is bigger than a small city\u2014their response to me was: \u201cWe are waiting for God to raise up somebody in our community to address this.\u201d\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I\u2019m just thinking: \u201cRight now, ultimately, this broadcast will probably be heard by a half-million women. One in four\u2014125,000 women going to church with you and me\u2014and we\u2019re all looking at each other like, \u2018Every body\u2019s got everything all together.\u2019 The reality is\u2014we don\u2019t.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> That\u2019s why I found that chapter that you called \u201cThe Big Secret\u201d\u2014\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014I think that\u2019s a great description of what\u2019s taking place. The need for the church to establish these groups and give women\u2014\n\n<strong>19:00<\/strong>\n\n\u2014and for that matter, men\u2014safety\/a place to have fellowship\u2014but also realize they are not alone.\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> That\u2019s right.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> The aloneness is where you get trapped.\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> That\u2019s\u2014or get isolated. That\u2019s exactly right.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And it\u2019s hard to know what the truth is when you\u2019re in isolation.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> So, I\u2019m thinking about the 125,000 women who ought to get a copy of your book; but they can\u2019t do that.\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> That\u2019s why we have a Kindle version. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I mean\u2014really? If a wife had a book like this\u2014\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014and her husband found it\u2014\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> I know.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014that\u2019s a triggering event; right?\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Absolutely. That is why we have a Kindle version. On my website, DrRamona.com, there is a safety exit button that\u2014if she\u2019s afraid that her steps will be traced, she can click that and that erases.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I\u2019m looking here. I think you could rip the cover off this book. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Brown paper bag. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>20:00<\/strong>\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Seriously, I would find a way to get the book to read it\u2014\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014because you really may be dealing with a life-and-death situation.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> We\u2019ve got copies of the book available in our <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Resource Center. As you said, there is a Kindle version available. We also have a link to your website, Dr. Ramona; and we\u2019ve got a link to the \u201cAbuse Evaluation Assessment\u201d that you\u2019ve put together so people can look and ask themselves the question, \u201cAm I in an abusive relationship?\u201d\n\nGo to FamilyLifeToday.com. The information you need is available there. You can order Dr. Probasco\u2019s book from us\u2014it\u2019s called <em>Healing Well and Living Free from an Abusive Relationship<\/em>. You can order it from FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call to order: 1-800-FL-TODAY. Again, the website: FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-358-6329\u2014that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d\n\n<strong>21:00<\/strong>\n\nYou know, as we think about the subject we\u2019ve been talking about today and think about the end of the year, it\u2019s always interesting to me to hear stories of how God will take the conversations we have, here, on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> and use them powerfully\u2014\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Yes; that\u2019s right.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014in people\u2019s lives.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> It really is true, Bob. This is where people are living; and a lot of us can\u2019t imagine anything like physical, emotional, sexual abuse, verbal abuse taking place; but it is happening, in home after home, inside and outside the church.\n\nI\u2019m involved in a situation with a friend, where I was asked to speak some truth into a young woman\u2019s life, who was in a desperate situation in her marriage. I just started pulling up broadcasts you and I did. You remember Tiffany Lee Plumb\u2014her marriage was, for all practical purposes, <em>done<\/em>.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I mean, she left her wedding dress; didn\u2019t she?\u2014out\u2014\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014out in the driveway.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014out in the driveway on top of a pile of all of his stuff.\n\n<strong>22:00<\/strong>\n\nListeners heard that and received help, and hope, and courage to turn something bad into something good, Bob.\n\nThis is the time of year, where about 40 percent of our donors show up and make this radio broadcast possible for the other 11 months of the year.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And we need your help right now. <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a donor-supported ministry. If you show up and listen, and then give, we can continue to provide help and hope from the Bible and from stories of people that give courage and life to those who are facing enormous odds.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> This is where your donation dollars are going to help people, who are in difficult circumstances\u2014couples in strained relationships \/ parents who need help raising the next generation. Right now, there\u2019s a special incentive\u2014actually two incentives\u2014to make a yearend donation.\n\n<strong>23:00<\/strong>\n\nThe first is\u2014every donation we receive, between now and the end of the year, is going to be matched, dollar for dollar. Your donation will be doubled, thanks to a matching gift that\u2019s been put together by some friends of the ministry. The total amount in the matching-gift fund is $2.5 million. We want to take advantage of <em>all<\/em> of that, so we\u2019re asking <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> listeners: \u201cWould you consider a <em>generous<\/em> yearend contribution, knowing that donation will be matched, dollar for dollar?\u201d\n\nWhen you make a yearend donation, we\u2019d like to send <em>you<\/em> a copy of the movie that FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> produced this year\u2014a movie called <em>Like Arrows<\/em>. It was in theaters a few months ago. It will be available for purchase in early spring in 2019, but you can get a copy of the DVD today. We have a limited number of these DVD\u2019s available; so make as generous a yearend donation as you can, and ask for your copy of the <em>Like Arrows<\/em> movie. You can donate, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call to donate:\n\n<strong>24:00<\/strong>\n\n\u20141-800-FL-TODAY; or you can request the DVD, <em>Like Arrows<\/em>, when you mail your donation to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> at PO Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; and our zip code is 72223.\n\nTomorrow, we\u2019ll talk about what victims of domestic violence can do to get help and to be safe. Dr. Ramona Probasco is going to be back with us tomorrow. We hope you can be back as well.\n\nI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\n\n<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry.\n\nHelp for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\nWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\n\nCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2018 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\n<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>"],"_seopress_titles_title":[""],"_seopress_titles_desc":["Dr. Ramona Probasco provides insight into why abused wives don&#039;t leave their husbands sooner, and how the abuse affected her children."],"_seopress_robots_index":[""],"duration":["00:27:03"],"show_notes":[""],"_thumbnail_id":["294104"],"filesize":["24.77M"],"filesize_raw":["25970154"],"_uag_css_file_name":["uag-css-300477.css"],"_uag_js_file_name":["uag-js-300477.js"],"_uag_page_assets":["a:9:{s:3:\"css\";s:82560:\".wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-top svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-top .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-bottom svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px 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Ramona Probasco tells what it's like to be married to an abusive man. Probasco provides insight into why abused wives don't leave their husbands sooner, and how the abuse affected her children.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2018-12-03.pdf","transcript_content":"<strong>Bob:<\/strong> For 16 years, Ramona Probasco was married to an abusive husband who threatened her if she ever tried to expose their relationship.\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Ben would say to me, \u201cIf you ever call the police, someone will be dead.\u201d I took him serious\u2014he had a real attraction to guns and buying guns. He would buy them; I would hide them. So\u2014and because of his military training, I believed him. I believed what he said, and I didn\u2019t want to test that.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Monday, December 3<sup>rd<\/sup>. Our host is Dennis Rainey, and I\u2019m Bob Lepine. Domestic violence is happening in more marriages than most of us realize. Ramona Probasco says victims need wisdom to know how to find safety if they find themselves in that kind of relationship. We\u2019ll talk more about that today. Stay with us.\n\nAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us.\n\n<strong>1:00<\/strong>\n\nWe\u2019re going to get into a tough subject today.<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> A very tough subject. We have the author of a book called <em>Healing Well and Living Free from an Abusive Relationship<\/em>. I like the subtitle\u2014this has all kinds of hope: <em>From Victim to Survivor to Overcomer<\/em>. Dr. Ramona Probasco joins us on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Ramona, thanks for joining us.\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Thank you. It\u2019s a pleasure to be here. Thank you both.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Thanks for this book\u2014I really appreciate that.\n\nDr. Probasco is a marriage and family therapist\u2014certified Domestic Violence Counselor. She\u2019s been a counselor and a therapist for over 20 years\u2014a sought-after speaker\u2014and now, she\u2019s authored this book.\n\nI\u2019ve got to tell you\u2014I was riveted by the story. I was, once again, reminded of how many of our listeners find themselves in life-threatening, <em>horrific<\/em>, dangerous situations.\n\n<strong>2:00<\/strong>\n\nI want to take you to year 14 of your marriage to Ben\u2014that\u2019s not his real name\u2014but you were married, and you found yourself in an <em>incredible<\/em> situation. Explain what happened that day and where your husband, ultimately, took you in that experience.\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Well, the title of that chapter is \u201cSomething Broke Inside Me.\u201d It\u2019s the moment when there was a shift from me hoping that Ben was going to change and the miracle was going to be that our marriage would be saved to focusing on myself\u2014me changing\/me healing. The miracle was going to be that God was going to give me the strength to do what I needed to do, not only to heal, but to leave.\n\nAt that particular time, Dennis, we were preparing to go to speak at a small conference\u2014I guess you could say. We were two of the featured speakers that evening, and it was getting late.\n\n<strong>3:00<\/strong>\n\nBen still was not dressed or ready to leave, and I was getting nervous. I was putting my makeup on; and I said to Ben\u2014I said: \u201cBen, we\u2019re going to be late. Please hurry up. Get dressed.\u201d He was ignoring me; and as often would happen in order to punish me\/get back at me, he would not do whatever it was I was hoping for.\n\nIn this case, I was hoping to be on time and to be at this event and to be prepared. It went very quickly from 0 to 100 fast. At the moment, I was in the bathroom. Actually, I was sitting on the toilet to be very honest. Ben came up to me\u2014he grabbed my head, and he drove his thumbs into my eye sockets.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Wow.\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> You know, to this day, I can remember the horrible feeling of his thumbs rolling around in my eyes. He left, as he often would after some sort of physical assault or even verbal\u2014didn\u2019t always have to be physical\u2014he would leave, or he would go sleep somewhere.\n\n<strong>4:00<\/strong>\n\nI run into the shower, and my daughter came in. She\u2019s like: \u201cMama, <em>leave<\/em>. You can leave. You can do it this time. We can do it together.\u201d\n\nFor several days, my vision was not sharp\u2014I guess that\u2019s the best way to describe it. Around my eye socket was like bruised\u2014felt bruised. At that moment, there was like a shift in my vision, internally, where my internal vision came in 20\/20. I saw that this was not going to work.\n\nA couple days later, Ben\u2014as often would be the case in many situations and relationships like this\u2014the abuser will use physical connection or intimacy to get the person to circle back into the relationship and try again\u2014try harder\/fight for us\u2014things like that. That was often the case with us. When Ben approached me, I just said: \u201cI can\u2019t.\n\n<strong>5:00<\/strong>\n\n\u201cI can\u2019t do that this time.\u201d He said, \u201cWell, why not?\u201d I said, \u201cBecause this time, something broke inside me.\u201d It was an <em>emotional<\/em> breakage of: \u201cI just can\u2019t come back, emotionally.\u201d That set the stage for several years of moving forward and eventually divorcing.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Had there been physical violence against you throughout the marriage?\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> It actually started three years\u2014a little over three years into the marriage. When it came to money\u2014we fought a lot about money. I always wanted to save. He would always say, \u201cYou\u2019re like a little chipmunk always saving the nuts.\u201d I thought, \u201cWell, there is some wisdom with the chipmunks; because when winter comes, they need to eat!\u201d [Laughter]\n\nHe would purchase things without, you know, us discussing it\u2014and expensive items. One time, he even bought a house without me knowing. I know that sounds crazy, but there is not enough time to answer that; so I had agreed to it, and he started paying the bills.\n\n<strong>6:00<\/strong>\n\nWell, I found out, through the mail, that he had not paid the electric bill. There was a pink slip, and our electricity was going to get shut off. His mother called\u2014it was a Saturday morning, and she called like she often did. I told her about it\u2014this was three years into the marriage. After I got off the phone, he was just <em>furious<\/em> that I had shared that with her. He picked me up and threw me against our bed\u2014the headboard of our bed. That was the first physical assault.\n\nPrior to that\u2014in the dating years and in the first couple years of our marriage\u2014there was name calling, swearing at me, not keeping his word, backing out of commitments last minute.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> That was what happened, physically. There were also things that you said that happened, emotionally.\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Spiritually, this was what was surprising to me. He claimed to be a follower and a believer in Jesus Christ.\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Yes; that\u2019s right, Dennis. I was raised\u2014my parents sent us to Catholic school, and that really prepared me to understand there is a God.\n\n<strong>7:00<\/strong>\n\nI personally did not accept Christ as my Lord and Savior until I was 17 years old. It was Ben who shared with me, early on in our dating years\u2014he had accepted Christ\u2014that\u2019s what he told me. He was the first person to ask me about Jesus.\n\nSo that, for many years, really confused me. I just didn\u2019t\u2014I didn\u2019t understand God\u2019s heart for this matter. I just really believed that the more I prayed the better it would get; but it was the more I prayed\u2014what I was wanting the answer to be didn\u2019t end up being the answer\u2014but it was the perfect answer for our situation, and God truly did save me and my kids.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> How did you process that? Here is a man, who has professed the name of Jesus Christ\u2014has been used by God as an instrument to help you find salvation, peace with God, forgiveness\u2014and yet, it\u2019s like he\u2019s a Jekyll and Hyde.\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>8:00<\/strong>\n\nIt was <em>hard<\/em> because the confusion with Ben, for me, caused confusion with God. I can remember one particular time when I came home, and I was the only one at home. The kids were gone, and Ben was out. It was the middle of the day, and I just was literally screaming at the top of my lungs at God. I mean, I\u2019m just going to be very honest. I was just like, \u201cGod, why are You not answering my prayers?!\u201d\u2014it just wasn\u2019t getting any better. It would <em>seem<\/em> like it was \u201cgetting better,\u201d but it never lasted. It always went back to same old\u2026same old...\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You said the physical violence didn\u2019t occur until three years into the marriage; but some of the things you described, during the dating years or in the first three years before it got physical, are things that\u2014if I was sitting with a young woman today, who said: \u201cWell, he calls me these names; and he gets angry like this... One time, he kicked the refrigerator really hard,\u201d\u2014\n\n<strong>9:00<\/strong>\n\n\u2014I would say to her, \u201cThese are <em>significant<\/em> warning signs.\u201d You\u2019d say the same thing today; right?\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Right. Oh, for sure; that\u2019s what I teach now.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> So, the question is: \u201cWhen that\u2019s happening to you, were there not little red flags popping up in your head, going, \u2018Warning!\u2019?\u2019\u201d\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Yes; \u201cWarning!\u201d \u201cWarning!\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Exactly; there <em>were<\/em> those feelings. There were times where\u2014especially after Ben proposed to me\u2014that I felt like it was going too fast, too quickly, too soon; and I would want to kind of slow it down. When I would do that, he would threaten to break up with me; or when we were engaged, he would say: \u201cJust give the ring back. It\u2019s over.\u201d\n\nPart of my story is\u2014when I accepted the Lord, my dad thought I had joined a cult. He was a very strict Catholic. He was from old country Europe, escaped from a Communist country when he was a young boy. He thought I joined a cult. He basically told me I needed to stop\u2014\n\n<strong>10:00<\/strong>\n\n\u2014I was attending Student Venture in high school\u2014I needed to either stop going to that group or I needed to leave.\n\nSo, October of my senior year, I moved out. I didn\u2019t have\u2014my family wasn\u2019t really involved\u2014I was estranged, because of my professed Christianity. Ben was right there; you know?\u2014he was there for me. He bought me\u2014his family sent me a winter coat when it got cold. He was just\u2014he was there, so I kind of dismissed\u2014I minimized the things that made me concerned.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I want to speak to the singles, who are listening to this broadcast, and the moms and dads, who may be watching their daughter in a dating relationship; and they have some suspicions. If you are seeing behavior that is not appropriate, or even approaches the line of somebody being out of control of their anger or abusive language toward your daughter, you\u2019ve got to step in!\n\n<strong>11:00<\/strong>\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> To love somebody enough to say, \u201cAre you really sure about this?\u201d What I hear you saying\u2014you were isolated. You didn\u2019t have your family, and I don\u2019t hear friends\u2019 voices coming in to protect you at a time, which could have saved you 14\/15 years of pain.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Well, I\u2019ve often said to young women: \u201cWatch how the guy you are dating treats the waitress and how he treats his mother\u2014\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cbecause he may be charming to you\u201d\u2014and let\u2019s be honest: Abusers are often <em>unusually<\/em> charming\u2014\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> That\u2019s exactly right.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014people. Ben was\u2014he was a sweep-you-off-your-feet charmer; wasn\u2019t he?\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Right; very witty, funny; yes.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes. So, you can see how that side\u2014you\u2019re thinking to yourself, \u201cIf he was that all the time, this would be wonderful.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> But then, to have\u2014and I imagine, for you, it was every couple of weeks\u2014maybe, more often than that\u2014there would be an episode; something would come up.\n\n<strong>12:00<\/strong>\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> It definitely follows a pattern. It\u2019s referred to as the cycle of abuse, where you feel tension. You\u2019re walking on egg shells; you\u2019re trying to keep the peace. Then, there will be some sort of explosive event\u2014it doesn\u2019t even really matter what it is\u2014but there will be an explosive incident. The person will experience verbal, emotional, physical, [or] sexual assault of some kind, which that phase doesn\u2019t last long at all. Then, it loops right into the honeymoon phase, where there are promises of change\/counseling: \u201cI\u2019ll go to AA,\u201d \u201cIt\u2019ll never happen again,\u201d\u2014gift giving.\n\nFor me, there was never any gift giving, typically. He would, sometimes, go to counseling; but he wasn\u2019t committed to it. It wasn\u2019t true repentance. Few abusers change. I mean, statistically, the research shows one percent of abusers do the deep work of really changing. I like to use the word, \u201c repentance\u201d; because that\u2019s what it is\u2014a real 180-change of mind, heart, and how they think.\n\nAbuse is not about anger.\n\n<strong>13:00<\/strong>\n\nWe all get angry; we don\u2019t all abuse. Abuse is about a mentality; and primarily, it\u2019s driven by lack of empathy and entitlement.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> There was this big secret that you referred to in your book taking place. The way you kind of couched it was: You went to church. You were there among all the believers, singing the praise hymns\u2014but a big secret.\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> That\u2019s right.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I want you to comment on two things. First of all, the time when he warned you that, if you called the police\u2014\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> \u2014someone would be killed; someone would die; yes.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014someone would be dead; but then, I want you to comment, after you comment on that, about the prevalence of this within the Christian community.\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Yes; well, to answer your first question. Often, people ask, \u201cWell, why didn\u2019t you just leave?\u201d or \u201cWhy didn\u2019t you call the police?\u201d Here\u2019s the truth\u2014it is much easier to leave a non-abusive partner than it is to leave an abusive one\u2014\n\n<strong>14:00<\/strong>\n\n\u2014they don\u2019t allow themselves to be left easily. As a matter of fact, the fatality rate actually goes up by 75 percent when a victim attempts to leave or is leaving; so it is very dangerous when you leave\u2014so that\u2019s the first thing.\n\nBen would say to me, \u201cIf you ever call the police, someone will be dead.\u201d I took him serious\u2014he had a real attraction to guns and buying guns. He would buy them; I would hide them. I\u2014and because of his military training, I believed him. I believed what he said; I didn\u2019t want to test that.\n\nPlus, there was the fact of\u2014even with the person, who is being victimized like this, there is also the duality of presentation\u2014how I presented in public, how we presented in public. How he presented\u2014he had a Jekyll and Hyde. Well, I had a presentation of altogether perfect. I was trying, with all my might, to <em>maintain<\/em> that, hoping that I could somehow fix it behind the scenes.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You said your daughter came into you after Ben had put his fingers in your eye and said, \u201cYou can leave.\u201d\n\n<strong>15:00<\/strong>\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> How old was she?\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> About 11; yes.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> She <em>knew<\/em> Daddy hurt Mommy.\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Was this just kind of common?\u2014her experience that Daddy hurt Mommy?\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> You know, when you think, \u201cWell, your kids aren\u2019t hearing anything; because you are arguing behind closed doors,\u201d\u2014or whatever\u2014that is not true. They know. As a matter of fact, my son\u2014when he was a teenager, we were talking. I don\u2019t remember what the question was, but his answer\u2014in his answer\u2014he <em>literally<\/em> described the cycle of abuse, without using the correct terminology, in his own adolescent words. All three of the kids were fully aware of it, because I would leave with them many times.\n\nOn average, a victim will leave six to eight times before they leave for good. I would take the kids a couple states away. We would go to the beach; we would stay there, hoping for \u201cBen to cool off\u201d-type thing.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> For how long?\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> The longest time was almost a week, but there was a lot of pressure to stay married.\n\n<strong>16:00<\/strong>\n\nI came from a family, where there was no divorce; and there just wasn\u2019t support. There was not, initially. Now, my folks are very supportive. They are some of the biggest advocates of my story and my book, and my whole family knows Jesus now. My dad has apologized, through tears. I mean, he still will cry about it and say, \u201cI\u2019m sorry,\u201d\u2014you know\u2014\u201cfor what I did\u201d; but they all know the Lord. So, that\u2019s a good ending there.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> So, back to the question of incidents within the Christian community\/in the church. Are there stats out about this?\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Yes; as a matter of fact, when I was doing my doctoral research, I studied, specifically, domestic violence and faith-based relationships. I wrote a 300-page dissertation out of this research. In my research, I created a 50-question survey\u2014an anonymous survey\u2014that I gave to over 500 women from a mega-church in the United States\u2014\n\n<strong>17:00<\/strong>\n\n\u2014asking them questions related to this topic of what\u2019s going on behind closed doors. I also surveyed\u2014this portion was not anonymous\u2014but 30 churches \/ 30 mega-churches, within the United States, to see what they are doing in response to domestic abuse within their congregation.\n\nWhat I found from the women is that, what is happening outside the church, is also happening within faith-based communities. As a matter of fact, the prevalence rates of violence\u2014meaning one in four women \/ one in seven men experience some form of <em>severe<\/em> physical violence in their lifetime, within the United States; and one in three women, globally. Statistically, the prevalence rates were the same. They were reflected the same\u2014with the exception of spiritual abuse within faith-based communities.\n\nAs far as the churches were concerned, what I found is\u2014none of them, at the time, had anything for abusers.\n\n<strong>18:00<\/strong>\n\nThere was no support group, and these are mega-churches\u2014there were 5,000 members or more coming on a weekly basis\u2014these are big churches. Some of them did have something for victims. One of the largest churches in the United States said to\u2014and this church is bigger than a small city\u2014their response to me was: \u201cWe are waiting for God to raise up somebody in our community to address this.\u201d\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I\u2019m just thinking: \u201cRight now, ultimately, this broadcast will probably be heard by a half-million women. One in four\u2014125,000 women going to church with you and me\u2014and we\u2019re all looking at each other like, \u2018Every body\u2019s got everything all together.\u2019 The reality is\u2014we don\u2019t.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> That\u2019s why I found that chapter that you called \u201cThe Big Secret\u201d\u2014\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014I think that\u2019s a great description of what\u2019s taking place. The need for the church to establish these groups and give women\u2014\n\n<strong>19:00<\/strong>\n\n\u2014and for that matter, men\u2014safety\/a place to have fellowship\u2014but also realize they are not alone.\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> That\u2019s right.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> The aloneness is where you get trapped.\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> That\u2019s\u2014or get isolated. That\u2019s exactly right.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And it\u2019s hard to know what the truth is when you\u2019re in isolation.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> So, I\u2019m thinking about the 125,000 women who ought to get a copy of your book; but they can\u2019t do that.\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> That\u2019s why we have a Kindle version. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I mean\u2014really? If a wife had a book like this\u2014\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014and her husband found it\u2014\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> I know.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014that\u2019s a triggering event; right?\n\n<strong>Ramona:<\/strong> Absolutely. That is why we have a Kindle version. On my website, DrRamona.com, there is a safety exit button that\u2014if she\u2019s afraid that her steps will be traced, she can click that and that erases.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I\u2019m looking here. I think you could rip the cover off this book. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Brown paper bag. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>20:00<\/strong>\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Seriously, I would find a way to get the book to read it\u2014\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014because you really may be dealing with a life-and-death situation.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> We\u2019ve got copies of the book available in our <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Resource Center. As you said, there is a Kindle version available. We also have a link to your website, Dr. Ramona; and we\u2019ve got a link to the \u201cAbuse Evaluation Assessment\u201d that you\u2019ve put together so people can look and ask themselves the question, \u201cAm I in an abusive relationship?\u201d\n\nGo to FamilyLifeToday.com. The information you need is available there. You can order Dr. Probasco\u2019s book from us\u2014it\u2019s called <em>Healing Well and Living Free from an Abusive Relationship<\/em>. You can order it from FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call to order: 1-800-FL-TODAY. Again, the website: FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-358-6329\u2014that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d\n\n<strong>21:00<\/strong>\n\nYou know, as we think about the subject we\u2019ve been talking about today and think about the end of the year, it\u2019s always interesting to me to hear stories of how God will take the conversations we have, here, on <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> and use them powerfully\u2014\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Yes; that\u2019s right.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014in people\u2019s lives.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> It really is true, Bob. This is where people are living; and a lot of us can\u2019t imagine anything like physical, emotional, sexual abuse, verbal abuse taking place; but it is happening, in home after home, inside and outside the church.\n\nI\u2019m involved in a situation with a friend, where I was asked to speak some truth into a young woman\u2019s life, who was in a desperate situation in her marriage. I just started pulling up broadcasts you and I did. You remember Tiffany Lee Plumb\u2014her marriage was, for all practical purposes, <em>done<\/em>.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I mean, she left her wedding dress; didn\u2019t she?\u2014out\u2014\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014out in the driveway.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014out in the driveway on top of a pile of all of his stuff.\n\n<strong>22:00<\/strong>\n\nListeners heard that and received help, and hope, and courage to turn something bad into something good, Bob.\n\nThis is the time of year, where about 40 percent of our donors show up and make this radio broadcast possible for the other 11 months of the year.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And we need your help right now. <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a donor-supported ministry. If you show up and listen, and then give, we can continue to provide help and hope from the Bible and from stories of people that give courage and life to those who are facing enormous odds.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> This is where your donation dollars are going to help people, who are in difficult circumstances\u2014couples in strained relationships \/ parents who need help raising the next generation. Right now, there\u2019s a special incentive\u2014actually two incentives\u2014to make a yearend donation.\n\n<strong>23:00<\/strong>\n\nThe first is\u2014every donation we receive, between now and the end of the year, is going to be matched, dollar for dollar. Your donation will be doubled, thanks to a matching gift that\u2019s been put together by some friends of the ministry. The total amount in the matching-gift fund is $2.5 million. We want to take advantage of <em>all<\/em> of that, so we\u2019re asking <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> listeners: \u201cWould you consider a <em>generous<\/em> yearend contribution, knowing that donation will be matched, dollar for dollar?\u201d\n\nWhen you make a yearend donation, we\u2019d like to send <em>you<\/em> a copy of the movie that FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup> produced this year\u2014a movie called <em>Like Arrows<\/em>. It was in theaters a few months ago. It will be available for purchase in early spring in 2019, but you can get a copy of the DVD today. We have a limited number of these DVD\u2019s available; so make as generous a yearend donation as you can, and ask for your copy of the <em>Like Arrows<\/em> movie. You can donate, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call to donate:\n\n<strong>24:00<\/strong>\n\n\u20141-800-FL-TODAY; or you can request the DVD, <em>Like Arrows<\/em>, when you mail your donation to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> at PO Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; and our zip code is 72223.\n\nTomorrow, we\u2019ll talk about what victims of domestic violence can do to get help and to be safe. Dr. Ramona Probasco is going to be back with us tomorrow. We hope you can be back as well.\n\nI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\n\n<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry.\n\nHelp for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\nWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. 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