{"id":300189,"date":"2018-03-26T11:00:00","date_gmt":"2018-03-26T15:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/how-did-we-get-here\/"},"modified":"2024-10-07T22:41:22","modified_gmt":"2024-10-08T02:41:22","slug":"how-did-we-get-here","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/how-did-we-get-here\/","title":{"rendered":"How Did We Get Here?"},"content":{"rendered":"","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Author Andrew Walker explains the confusing issue of gender fluidity and how the message promoted by the sexual revolution has contributed to its prominence in today&#8217;s society.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2018-03-26.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:30:07","filesize":"27.57M","filesize_raw":"28911953","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2848,2896,2806],"tags":[4307,4309,4306,4308],"podcast_series":[7202],"cwp_profile":[8823],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-300189","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-cultural-issues","category-lgbt","category-spiritual-development","tag-gender-fluidity","tag-promiscuous","tag-sexual-revolution","tag-todays-culture","podcast_series-god-and-the-transgender-debate","cwp_profile-andrew-walker","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/300189\/how-did-we-get-here","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/300189\/how-did-we-get-here","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"Edpmznxukz\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/how-did-we-get-here\/\">How Did We Get Here?<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/how-did-we-get-here\/embed\/#?secret=Edpmznxukz\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;How Did We Get Here?&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"Edpmznxukz\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2018-03-26.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2018-03-26.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Which of the following should have the biggest impact on how you view your own identity?\u2014is it what your friends and other people say about you \/ what the culture says about you?\u2014is it how you feel about yourself, deep inside\u2014or is it what the Bible says is true about you? That question is at the heart of the controversy in our day regarding transgenderism. Here\u2019s Andrew Walker. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Andrew:<\/strong> Behind the transgender worldview is this Gnosticism\u2014that we are something different than our bodies\u2014that there is a secret inner-self in our mind. That runs contrary to a biblical view of revelation\u2014of how God made creation and how He made us, as man and woman, in His image. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Monday, March 26<sup>th<\/sup>. Our host is Dennis Rainey, and I\u2019m Bob Lepine. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>1:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHow can we think wisely and engage, winsomely, on the subject of transgenderism in our world today? We are going to explore that with Andrew Walker. Stay with us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. We\u2019re going to dive right into the middle of what may be one of the most controversial issues in the whole sexual revolution that we\u2019re dealing with in our culture today; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> No doubt about it. We\u2019re going to be talking about transgender and what God thinks about it. I want to introduce our guest, Andrew Walker, to our audience. Andrew, welcome to our broadcast. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Andrew:<\/strong> Thank you. It\u2019s great to be here. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Andrew is the Director of Policy Studies at the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission of the Southern Baptist Convention\u2014which is a mouthful. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>2:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHe and his wife Christian have been married since 2006 and have two daughters. He has written a book that is front and center, Bob\u2014it says: <em>God and the Transgender Debate<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAndrew, when I began working my way through your book, I couldn\u2019t help but think of one of my\u2014this is going to sound a bit odd\u2014one of my favorite emails we\u2019ve ever received in 25 years of broadcasting. It came from a transgender person in Washington, DC. She had heard Bob and me\u2014and I think it was John Stonestreet and Sean McDowell\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014talking about this subject on our broadcast. This person wrote to tell us: \u201cI want to thank you for speaking with respect to me, as a person who doesn\u2019t believe like you do.\u201d The person went on to say how they had been discriminated against at church, and circles among believers, and those who profess to follow Christ. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAs I read the email, I couldn\u2019t help but think: \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>3:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cYou know what? That could have been said of me a decade ago\u201d; but the lessons that, hopefully, I\u2019m learning and others are learning: \u201cWe serve a big God, who loves all people and who made all people in His image. Yet, we also live in a broken world\u2014one that is marred by sin.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to just pull back and ask you to just take a pass at explaining how it is we come to this day and age when transgender can be such a hot topic\u2014for both individuals and how we relate to people\u2014but also as we raise our children. How has it happened? How has it come about? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Andrew:<\/strong> Well, I think there are lots of different ways that we\u2019ve kind of gotten to the current era of time that we have. We can look back to ideas such as the sexual revolution, starting in the 1950s, \u201860s, and \u201870s\u2014which you could probably complete the sentence if I said: \u201cIf it feels good\u2026\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u201c\u2026you do it.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Andrew:<\/strong> \u201c\u2026you do it.\u201d That was kind of one of the abiding ethics that a previous generation of Americans was raised to believe. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>4:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThere\u2019s this idea, behind the sexual revolution, of what I would call radical individualism and this understanding of self-autonomy. In that framework, what matters most is that individuals live out according to their desires \/ to their psychological conditions\u2014that what counts, as real self-fulfillment, is that no one says, \u201cNo,\u201d to you\u2014that you\u2019re to be true to yourself. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat is kind of what has, I think, mostly pervaded the issue of transgenderism\u2014is this idea that you can kind of manufacture your own understanding\u2014that our gender and our biological sex can be separated\u2014but that we live in a universe that there, maybe, isn\u2019t this divine moral order to it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>5:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAgain, we manufacture and create morality simply based on consent. We really have to reckon, in the transgender debate, with: \u201cWhat view of reality are we going to live in?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThere is a philosopher named Thomas Sowell who said that there are basically two types of realities that people can live in: a constrained reality or an unconstrained reality. A constrained reality would be a reality that we believe is governed by God\u2014that God gives an idea of what morality is\u2014that we can discern what morality is because morality\/an order is imposed on it from God\u2014that we don\u2019t get to live in a limitless, boundary-less universe. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou juxtapose the constrained universe with an unconstrained universe, where\u2014again, you come back to this understanding that reality has no real objective meaning to it \/ it doesn\u2019t have an objective moral order to it. Again, what counts is that a person gets to live out what they believe is moral\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Andrew:<\/strong> \u2014and what is good. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>6:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> As you describe that, I think about how we determine what is real and what is true. We live in a day where science and biology would say, as it relates to gender: \u201cThis is what is true\u2014someone would say: \u2018Here is how I feel about my gender. This is what is true.\u2019\u201d What\u2019s happened in the last 20 or 30 years is\u2014we\u2019ve said, \u201cHow you feel is truer than what science or biology might say about it.\u201d One is a rational way of looking at things; the other is a post-modern way of looking at things; and then, Christians come along and say, \u201cWell, we have revelation to lay on top of all of that,\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Andrew:<\/strong> Correct. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cwhich is not what science or biology says; it\u2019s not what you feel; it\u2019s what God says that is the truest thing.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Andrew:<\/strong> Well, something you just said, right there, was exactly right\u2014is that we have separated our <em>feelings<\/em> from who we are, biologically. So, behind the transgender worldview is this\u2014there is a Gnosticism to it\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>7:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014that we are something different than our bodies. There is a secret inner-self in our mind, and our bodies are something\u2014it\u2019s just kind of a casing or a shell\u2014and that runs contrary to a biblical view of revelation of how God made creation and how He made us, as man and woman, in His image\u2014that according to biblical worldview, matter matters. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> So, what\u2019s taking place in the life of a young person, who is growing up today in junior high\/high school, and this issue of gender fluidity is being tossed about and bandied about by their peers? Explain what\u2019s taking place in a young person\u2019s mind and how this is creating a very swift current that can take young people to a place that\u2019s extremely dangerous. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Andrew:<\/strong> So, if you\u2019re growing up, in this day and age, in public schools or in the culture, more generally, you are learning, as you just said, that gender is fluid\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>8:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014that it exists on a continuum or a spectrum \/ that there is no fixed objective or innate truth to our gender. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Here\u2019s how I\u2019ve heard a junior high student describe this\u2014she said, \u201cI think I\u2019m probably 70 percent hetero and 30 percent gay.\u201d In her mind, she\u2019s not saying, \u201cI\u2019m either gay or straight.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Andrew:<\/strong> She\u2019s a little bit of both. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> She\u2019s saying, \u201cI\u2019m kind of gauging which of my impulses are straight and which are gay, and \u2018What\u2019s the majority here?\u2019\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Andrew:<\/strong> Which is why, on Facebook<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, you can choose upwards of, I think, now 60-plus gender identities. These gender identities\u2014again, there is nothing objective about them or necessarily true about them. It\u2019s what a person perceives or feels. So, if you feel more male than you do female, then, you identify as, perhaps, a transgendered man because, again, we are living in a world where we are completely severing and detaching biological sex from the understanding of our gender.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>9:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou can be, biologically, male and have x-y chromosomes; but in your mind, if you <em>feel<\/em> female, you can suppress the truth of your biology and ignore it\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Andrew:<\/strong> \u2014and identify as female. Again, that\u2019s the really challenging thing about kids who are growing up in the day that they are\u2014is that they find themselves in environments, where they are being told to explore, and to challenge, and to question who they are\u2014to experiment\u2014because one of the only things that\u2019s prohibited in the day in which we live is\u2014again, to say, \u201cNo,\u201d\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Andrew:<\/strong> \u2014because what matters is someone is able to self-identify with what they think will bring them happiness. Again, that\u2019s in total disregard to what is true of how God made us, as male and female. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And when a young person is invited \/ encouraged to explore\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>10:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014think about\u2014maybe: \u201cI know you\u2019re a boy. I know your body says you\u2019re a boy; but maybe, that\u2019s not who you really are. Not everybody who is in a boy\u2019s body is really a boy.\u201d When you\u2019re taught these kinds of things, you start to imagine and question and wonder. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThen, what happens\u2014I think this is really interesting\u2014is somebody comes up and says, \u201cYou know I\u2019m in a boy\u2019s body; but I sometimes feel like, maybe, I\u2019m a girl.\u201d All of a sudden, there\u2019s a spotlight\u2014there\u2019s attention put on that person, and there\u2019s\u2014now, we\u2019ve got a\u2014we want to respect this person. Well, as soon as everybody else in the class sees this gets you a certain level of respect, and appreciation, and effort, then everybody else kind of wakes up and says, \u201cWell, maybe, I feel that way too.\u201d What they\u2019re really looking for is not gender identity; they\u2019re just looking for some recognition. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Andrew:<\/strong> In the media, the transgender issue is treated as a very enlightened, social justice-type issue; but when you kind of peel back and understand: \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>11:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cWhat are the repercussions of the transgender movement?\u201d\u2014we\u2019re making it impossible for a teacher to tell a young boy\u2014if that young boy were to ask, \u201cTeacher, am I a boy?\u201d\u2014we\u2019re making it impossible for that teacher to be able to give an affirmative, \u201cYes;\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Andrew:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cyou are a boy.\u201d The reason that\u2019s problematic is that it destabilizes society. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tGod gave us, in His Word\u2014because we believe it is an inspired, true word\u2014a picture of reality, and we want to live in that reality. The transgender worldview is presenting a different view of reality that, again, runs contrary to the picture of how God made us, as male and female. God made us fixed\u2014male and female. The transgender worldview is saying: \u201cNo; nothing is fixed. You explore. You figure out what works for you.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThere\u2019s a distinguished psychologist, Dr. Paul McHugh, at John Hopkins\u2014a real trailblazer in the field of psychology\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>12:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014approaching this from a purely scientific, non-theological lens. When he looked at the data, he saw that affirming individuals in their transgenderism does not resolve all of the inner tension and the inner anguish. Why is that? Think about this: \u201cYou don\u2019t heal the mind by altering the body\u201d; because beneath the transgender issue\u2014and we want to be super-sensitive and compassionate when we talk about this issue\u2014there\u2019s a lot of psychological hurt; there\u2019s a lot of psychological anguish; there\u2019s higher incidences of depression, social anxiety, suicide and thoughts of suicide. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, we want to be ultra-compassionate and sensitive here; but at the same time, recognize that simply affirming someone\u2019s feelings isn\u2019t sufficient for those feelings \/ those anguished tensions to be eliminated. There is something deeper going on in the mind, where we want to say to individuals, \u201cWe want to see you well\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>13:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Andrew:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cbut we want to see you live in line with the truth of who God made you.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> So, if there is a soul issue, as we believe there is, when it comes to gender dysphoria, then, to try to correct a soul issue with a surgery is like trying to correct an earache by amputating the arm. You\u2019re dealing with the wrong source of the issue. You can do the surgery, but the soul hasn\u2019t been affected by the cutting. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Andrew, Bob just used a term there that you speak of in the book. I want you to unpack it for our listeners\u2014what is gender dysphoria? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Andrew:<\/strong> Gender dysphoria is a very kind of fancy psychological term for the anxiety or the distress that someone experiences if they sense an incongruence or disconnect between their gender identity and their biological sex. Let me unpack that even more, because that\u2019s even kind of complex. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tLet\u2019s imagine you have a male, who has x-y chromosomes\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>14:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014he is, unambiguously, male. This person might, in their mind, feel themselves to be female. Now, there\u2019s some ambiguity here of: \u201cHow do you feel female if you have a male body?\u201d There\u2019s some ambiguity around that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And you\u2019ve got to throw into the middle of this: \u201cHow are we defining what is male and what is female?\u201d\u2014because, now, we live in a culture that says we shouldn\u2019t be classifying one thing as male or female. So, if I\u2019m feeling female: \u201cWhat does that even mean?\u201d\u2014right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Andrew:<\/strong> Correct. Everything is gender neutral. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Dennis:<\/strong> We\u2019ve been talking about this in, I guess, kind of abstract form. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Andrew:<\/strong> Sure. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Introduce us to a person you\u2019ve met who is transgender. I know we\u2019re not trying to characterize all people like this person; but there are many of our listeners, who may take a step back and go, \u201cI don\u2019t know anyone who is transgender.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014or \u201cI don\u2019t know if I know anyone who is transgender\u201d; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Yes. So, tell us a little bit about a person, who is self-identifying\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Andrew:<\/strong> Sure. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014as a transgender male or female. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>15:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Andrew:<\/strong> That\u2019s a great question. I have not been asked that in the whole aftermath of my book, so I really appreciate that. I want to be really discreet and not give away any details, because a lot of people have confided in me in great confidence. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOne thing that is super important to keep in mind is that whenever we, in the culture, attach an \u2013ism to anything\u2014so transgender becomes transgenderism\u2014it depersonalizes the issue and makes it abstract. What we always want to focus on, as Christians, is that every gender dysphoric individual, or gender-confused individual, or transgendered individual is a human being, and is a person, and is made in the image of God. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Andrew:<\/strong> We want to affirm that. Even if we disagree with how a person is identifying or living, we want to affirm their worth; and we want to respect them. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And we want to love them\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Andrew:<\/strong> Absolutely. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014and love them well. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Well, our love should not be value-graded for others based on our level of agreement with them\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Andrew:<\/strong> Absolutely. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014on anything. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>16:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Andrew:<\/strong> So, the individuals who I have talked with, who would identify as transgender\u2014the most important thing that I would say about them is that they are all not just\u2014they are not fire-breathing activists. These are individuals, who genuinely want to live happy and fulfilled lives. In some sense, we\u2019re all doing the same thing. So, at the end of the day, there is this question of: \u201cOkay; who gets to say what the good life ultimately is?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut back to these individuals\u2014these individuals that I\u2019ve talked with\u2014I have a lot in common. One person in particular is absolutely delightful. We have some serious disagreements on politics, and philosophy, and theology; but we have some similar kind of personal interests as far as music and as far as hobbies and activities. We\u2019re not hiding our differences, but we\u2019re able to understand that our differences don\u2019t define everything about us; because we, again, are all image-bearers\u2014we\u2019re all human beings made in the image of God. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>17:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat I think this allows us to do, as Christians, is to kind of understand that one person\u2019s struggles are different than my struggles; but we\u2019re all humans\u2014we are all beset in frail bodies that are experiencing the result of the fall\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014and we all have struggles. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Andrew:<\/strong> \u2014and we all have struggles. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014and we all have struggles in the sexual area. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Andrew:<\/strong> Absolutely. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I mean, one kind of sexual sin\u2014Jesus said this when He said, \u201cIf you look on a woman to lust, it\u2019s like committing adultery.\u201d We can\u2019t grade sexual sin and say, \u201cWell, this is kind of acceptable sexual sin,\u201d and \u201cThis is unacceptable sexual sin.\u201d It\u2019s all unacceptable before God. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI have some questions, definitionally\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Andrew:<\/strong> Sure. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014just help me here. If somebody says, \u201cYou know, I\u2019m a male \/ biologically, I\u2019m a male; but I have these feelings that are very feminine feelings. I sometimes think I would want to paint fingernails and toenails or I would want to cross-dress,\u201d\u2014things like that\u2014do they fit the title, \u201ctransgender\u201d; or do you have to be in the process of hormone therapy or surgery to qualify as a transgender person?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>18:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Andrew:<\/strong> That\u2019s a great question. I wish that I was the final arbiter on the language here; because the language, honestly, is one of the most contested elements to the transgender issue. You could have someone, who is having feminine desires, call themselves just feminine\u2014they could attach \u201ctrans\u201d to that; that person could identify as gender-queer; that person could identify as a cross-dresser. There\u2019s a range of ways we could define someone. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat actually is a really good way to think about this. Transgenderism is kind of an umbrella category for individuals who take steps to kind of live in alignment with their gender identity. That\u2019s a much more kind of cultural, personal, social, and political identity\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Okay. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Andrew:<\/strong> \u2014identifier. Now, this is important; because there are gender dysphoric people, who experience that incongruence about their gender identity and their biological sex, who do not identify as transgender.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>19:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> They don\u2019t take any steps to try and conform. They feel it, but they don\u2019t act out on it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Andrew:<\/strong> Correct. I\u2019ve had individuals contact me through email, who have said: \u201cI read your book. Thank you for writing it. I am someone who has experienced feelings of gender incongruence my entire life. I\u2019m a Christian. I know that God made me as a male; but at the same time, I can\u2019t deny the fact that I have had these feelings where I\u2019ve thought of myself as female.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat is really instructive for us\u2014for those of us inside the church\u2014because what that means is there are people for whom gender dysphoria is an unwanted, involuntary thing that occurs in the mind\u2014that they aren\u2019t taking steps to identify as transgender. They\u2019re just simply looking for a network of support and a community in a church that will commit to love them and walk alongside them through what could be some dark seasons when you look at the issues of depression and anxiety around it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>20:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And I know there are listeners, right now, who are going, \u201cI\u2019ve got a lot more questions.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Andrew:<\/strong> Sure. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Well, I want to encourage you to get a copy of Andrew Walker\u2019s book, <em>God and the Transgender Debate<\/em>; because I think you\u2019ll find that Andrew starts out, in a very gentle way, helping you understand what\u2019s behind the thinking in this and shows you how you can begin to understand someone who is struggling with this and who, as he just described a few moments ago, needs to experience love \/ needs to experience community within the faith. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf you think about it: \u201cWhere\u2019s the one place on the planet someone\u2014who is struggling with alcoholism, with being immoral, sexually, with the opposite sex or someone who is struggling with transgenderism\u2014where\u2019s the one place they can find hope of being loved for who they are\u2014made in the image of God\u2014but the church?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>21:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Well, of course, we\u2019ve got copies of the book you\u2019re talking about in our <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Resource Center\u2014Andrew Walker\u2019s book, <em>God and the Transgender Debate: What Does the Bible Actually Say About Gender Identity?<\/em> You can go online to order from us at FamilyLifeToday.com, or call to order: 1-800-358-6329\u2014that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou know, our team just recently felt that this issue of identity\u2014not just gender identity but \u201cHow do you understand the whole question of identity?\u201d\u2014we felt this was so critical that we put together a getaway experience for parents and their teenage sons or teenage daughters\u2014an experience called <em>Passport2Identity<\/em><sup>\u2122<\/sup>. It\u2019s for moms and dads with 14-\/15-\/16-year-old children. Get away for a couple of days\u2014listen to the audio that we provide, work your way through a workbook, and have some great conversations about where identity comes from, how you can understand who you are \/ who God made you to be, and how you live that out. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>22:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThis, of course, is a follow-up to the <em>Passport2Purity<\/em><em><sup>\u00ae<\/sup><\/em> resource that we created years ago. You can find out about both resources when you go to FamilyLifeToday.com. Again, the website: FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY if you\u2019d like more information about <em>Passport2Purity<\/em> or <em>Passport2Identity<\/em> or, again, Andrew Walker\u2019s book, <em>God and the Transgender Debate<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou know, our goal\u2014whether it\u2019s conversations like the one we\u2019re having today or the conversations we have at our <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em><em><sup>\u00ae<\/sup><\/em> marriage getaways\u2014all that we do at FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>\u2014the goal is the same; and that is to provide practical biblical help and hope for husbands and wives \/ for moms and dads\u2014for all of us as we seek to live out our faith in our families. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe\u2019ve got a new resource we\u2019ve been working on that we\u2019re about to release called <em>FamilyLife\u2019s Art of Parenting<\/em><sup>\u2122<\/sup>, an eight-session video series that will be available as a digital experience or as a small group curriculum\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>23:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014something you can go through with others. You should know\u2014we\u2019re working to develop strategies designed to take this content we\u2019ve developed and get it into the hands and hearts of people, who don\u2019t listen to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> and may not be going to a local church. We want to provide them with biblical instruction and give them an opportunity to hear and respond to the gospel as well. We\u2019ve calculated it\u2019s going to cost us about $10 per home to get this content into people\u2019s hands. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe\u2019re asking <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> listeners, \u201cHelp us reach more people, more often, with God\u2019s design for marriage and family.\u201d You can do that by making a donation today at FamilyLifeToday.com or call to donate at 1-800-FL-TODAY. When you do, we\u2019re going to send you a series of seven prayer cards so that, as a parent or a grandparent, you can be praying for your children or your grandchildren\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>24:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014praying more specifically \/ more intentionally\u2014as we raise the next generation. We believe that really matters. Again, the prayer cards are our thank-you gift when you make a donation today. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd we hope you\u2019ll join us back tomorrow as we continue to explore what the Bible has to say about gender identity and specifically transgenderism. Andrew Walker will be back with us tomorrow. I hope you can be back as well. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\tHelp for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2018 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\t1\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>"],"_seopress_titles_title":[""],"_seopress_titles_desc":[""],"_seopress_robots_index":[""],"duration":["00:30:07"],"show_notes":[""],"_thumbnail_id":["294104"],"filesize":["27.57M"],"filesize_raw":["28911953"],"_uag_css_file_name":["uag-css-300189.css"],"_uag_js_file_name":["uag-js-300189.js"],"_uag_page_assets":["a:9:{s:3:\"css\";s:82560:\".wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-top svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-top .uagb-container__shape-fill{fill: rgba(51,51,51,1);}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape-bottom svg{width: calc( 100% + 1.3px );}.wp-block-uagb-container.uagb-block-e11dbe9f .uagb-container__shape.uagb-container__shape-bottom 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Andrew Walker explains the confusing issue of gender fluidity and how the message promoted by the sexual revolution has contributed to its prominence in today's society.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2018-03-26.pdf","transcript_content":"<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Which of the following should have the biggest impact on how you view your own identity?\u2014is it what your friends and other people say about you \/ what the culture says about you?\u2014is it how you feel about yourself, deep inside\u2014or is it what the Bible says is true about you? That question is at the heart of the controversy in our day regarding transgenderism. Here\u2019s Andrew Walker. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Andrew:<\/strong> Behind the transgender worldview is this Gnosticism\u2014that we are something different than our bodies\u2014that there is a secret inner-self in our mind. That runs contrary to a biblical view of revelation\u2014of how God made creation and how He made us, as man and woman, in His image. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Monday, March 26<sup>th<\/sup>. Our host is Dennis Rainey, and I\u2019m Bob Lepine. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>1:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHow can we think wisely and engage, winsomely, on the subject of transgenderism in our world today? We are going to explore that with Andrew Walker. Stay with us. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us. We\u2019re going to dive right into the middle of what may be one of the most controversial issues in the whole sexual revolution that we\u2019re dealing with in our culture today; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> No doubt about it. We\u2019re going to be talking about transgender and what God thinks about it. I want to introduce our guest, Andrew Walker, to our audience. Andrew, welcome to our broadcast. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Andrew:<\/strong> Thank you. It\u2019s great to be here. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Andrew is the Director of Policy Studies at the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission of the Southern Baptist Convention\u2014which is a mouthful. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>2:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tHe and his wife Christian have been married since 2006 and have two daughters. He has written a book that is front and center, Bob\u2014it says: <em>God and the Transgender Debate<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAndrew, when I began working my way through your book, I couldn\u2019t help but think of one of my\u2014this is going to sound a bit odd\u2014one of my favorite emails we\u2019ve ever received in 25 years of broadcasting. It came from a transgender person in Washington, DC. She had heard Bob and me\u2014and I think it was John Stonestreet and Sean McDowell\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014talking about this subject on our broadcast. This person wrote to tell us: \u201cI want to thank you for speaking with respect to me, as a person who doesn\u2019t believe like you do.\u201d The person went on to say how they had been discriminated against at church, and circles among believers, and those who profess to follow Christ. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAs I read the email, I couldn\u2019t help but think: \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>3:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cYou know what? That could have been said of me a decade ago\u201d; but the lessons that, hopefully, I\u2019m learning and others are learning: \u201cWe serve a big God, who loves all people and who made all people in His image. Yet, we also live in a broken world\u2014one that is marred by sin.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to just pull back and ask you to just take a pass at explaining how it is we come to this day and age when transgender can be such a hot topic\u2014for both individuals and how we relate to people\u2014but also as we raise our children. How has it happened? How has it come about? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Andrew:<\/strong> Well, I think there are lots of different ways that we\u2019ve kind of gotten to the current era of time that we have. We can look back to ideas such as the sexual revolution, starting in the 1950s, \u201860s, and \u201870s\u2014which you could probably complete the sentence if I said: \u201cIf it feels good\u2026\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u201c\u2026you do it.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Andrew:<\/strong> \u201c\u2026you do it.\u201d That was kind of one of the abiding ethics that a previous generation of Americans was raised to believe. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>4:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThere\u2019s this idea, behind the sexual revolution, of what I would call radical individualism and this understanding of self-autonomy. In that framework, what matters most is that individuals live out according to their desires \/ to their psychological conditions\u2014that what counts, as real self-fulfillment, is that no one says, \u201cNo,\u201d to you\u2014that you\u2019re to be true to yourself. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat is kind of what has, I think, mostly pervaded the issue of transgenderism\u2014is this idea that you can kind of manufacture your own understanding\u2014that our gender and our biological sex can be separated\u2014but that we live in a universe that there, maybe, isn\u2019t this divine moral order to it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>5:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAgain, we manufacture and create morality simply based on consent. We really have to reckon, in the transgender debate, with: \u201cWhat view of reality are we going to live in?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThere is a philosopher named Thomas Sowell who said that there are basically two types of realities that people can live in: a constrained reality or an unconstrained reality. A constrained reality would be a reality that we believe is governed by God\u2014that God gives an idea of what morality is\u2014that we can discern what morality is because morality\/an order is imposed on it from God\u2014that we don\u2019t get to live in a limitless, boundary-less universe. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou juxtapose the constrained universe with an unconstrained universe, where\u2014again, you come back to this understanding that reality has no real objective meaning to it \/ it doesn\u2019t have an objective moral order to it. Again, what counts is that a person gets to live out what they believe is moral\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Andrew:<\/strong> \u2014and what is good. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>6:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> As you describe that, I think about how we determine what is real and what is true. We live in a day where science and biology would say, as it relates to gender: \u201cThis is what is true\u2014someone would say: \u2018Here is how I feel about my gender. This is what is true.\u2019\u201d What\u2019s happened in the last 20 or 30 years is\u2014we\u2019ve said, \u201cHow you feel is truer than what science or biology might say about it.\u201d One is a rational way of looking at things; the other is a post-modern way of looking at things; and then, Christians come along and say, \u201cWell, we have revelation to lay on top of all of that,\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Andrew:<\/strong> Correct. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cwhich is not what science or biology says; it\u2019s not what you feel; it\u2019s what God says that is the truest thing.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Andrew:<\/strong> Well, something you just said, right there, was exactly right\u2014is that we have separated our <em>feelings<\/em> from who we are, biologically. So, behind the transgender worldview is this\u2014there is a Gnosticism to it\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>7:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014that we are something different than our bodies. There is a secret inner-self in our mind, and our bodies are something\u2014it\u2019s just kind of a casing or a shell\u2014and that runs contrary to a biblical view of revelation of how God made creation and how He made us, as man and woman, in His image\u2014that according to biblical worldview, matter matters. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> So, what\u2019s taking place in the life of a young person, who is growing up today in junior high\/high school, and this issue of gender fluidity is being tossed about and bandied about by their peers? Explain what\u2019s taking place in a young person\u2019s mind and how this is creating a very swift current that can take young people to a place that\u2019s extremely dangerous. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Andrew:<\/strong> So, if you\u2019re growing up, in this day and age, in public schools or in the culture, more generally, you are learning, as you just said, that gender is fluid\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>8:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014that it exists on a continuum or a spectrum \/ that there is no fixed objective or innate truth to our gender. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Here\u2019s how I\u2019ve heard a junior high student describe this\u2014she said, \u201cI think I\u2019m probably 70 percent hetero and 30 percent gay.\u201d In her mind, she\u2019s not saying, \u201cI\u2019m either gay or straight.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Andrew:<\/strong> She\u2019s a little bit of both. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> She\u2019s saying, \u201cI\u2019m kind of gauging which of my impulses are straight and which are gay, and \u2018What\u2019s the majority here?\u2019\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Andrew:<\/strong> Which is why, on Facebook<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, you can choose upwards of, I think, now 60-plus gender identities. These gender identities\u2014again, there is nothing objective about them or necessarily true about them. It\u2019s what a person perceives or feels. So, if you feel more male than you do female, then, you identify as, perhaps, a transgendered man because, again, we are living in a world where we are completely severing and detaching biological sex from the understanding of our gender.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>9:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou can be, biologically, male and have x-y chromosomes; but in your mind, if you <em>feel<\/em> female, you can suppress the truth of your biology and ignore it\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Andrew:<\/strong> \u2014and identify as female. Again, that\u2019s the really challenging thing about kids who are growing up in the day that they are\u2014is that they find themselves in environments, where they are being told to explore, and to challenge, and to question who they are\u2014to experiment\u2014because one of the only things that\u2019s prohibited in the day in which we live is\u2014again, to say, \u201cNo,\u201d\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Andrew:<\/strong> \u2014because what matters is someone is able to self-identify with what they think will bring them happiness. Again, that\u2019s in total disregard to what is true of how God made us, as male and female. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And when a young person is invited \/ encouraged to explore\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>10:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014think about\u2014maybe: \u201cI know you\u2019re a boy. I know your body says you\u2019re a boy; but maybe, that\u2019s not who you really are. Not everybody who is in a boy\u2019s body is really a boy.\u201d When you\u2019re taught these kinds of things, you start to imagine and question and wonder. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThen, what happens\u2014I think this is really interesting\u2014is somebody comes up and says, \u201cYou know I\u2019m in a boy\u2019s body; but I sometimes feel like, maybe, I\u2019m a girl.\u201d All of a sudden, there\u2019s a spotlight\u2014there\u2019s attention put on that person, and there\u2019s\u2014now, we\u2019ve got a\u2014we want to respect this person. Well, as soon as everybody else in the class sees this gets you a certain level of respect, and appreciation, and effort, then everybody else kind of wakes up and says, \u201cWell, maybe, I feel that way too.\u201d What they\u2019re really looking for is not gender identity; they\u2019re just looking for some recognition. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Andrew:<\/strong> In the media, the transgender issue is treated as a very enlightened, social justice-type issue; but when you kind of peel back and understand: \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>11:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u201cWhat are the repercussions of the transgender movement?\u201d\u2014we\u2019re making it impossible for a teacher to tell a young boy\u2014if that young boy were to ask, \u201cTeacher, am I a boy?\u201d\u2014we\u2019re making it impossible for that teacher to be able to give an affirmative, \u201cYes;\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Andrew:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cyou are a boy.\u201d The reason that\u2019s problematic is that it destabilizes society. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tGod gave us, in His Word\u2014because we believe it is an inspired, true word\u2014a picture of reality, and we want to live in that reality. The transgender worldview is presenting a different view of reality that, again, runs contrary to the picture of how God made us, as male and female. God made us fixed\u2014male and female. The transgender worldview is saying: \u201cNo; nothing is fixed. You explore. You figure out what works for you.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThere\u2019s a distinguished psychologist, Dr. Paul McHugh, at John Hopkins\u2014a real trailblazer in the field of psychology\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>12:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014approaching this from a purely scientific, non-theological lens. When he looked at the data, he saw that affirming individuals in their transgenderism does not resolve all of the inner tension and the inner anguish. Why is that? Think about this: \u201cYou don\u2019t heal the mind by altering the body\u201d; because beneath the transgender issue\u2014and we want to be super-sensitive and compassionate when we talk about this issue\u2014there\u2019s a lot of psychological hurt; there\u2019s a lot of psychological anguish; there\u2019s higher incidences of depression, social anxiety, suicide and thoughts of suicide. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tSo, we want to be ultra-compassionate and sensitive here; but at the same time, recognize that simply affirming someone\u2019s feelings isn\u2019t sufficient for those feelings \/ those anguished tensions to be eliminated. There is something deeper going on in the mind, where we want to say to individuals, \u201cWe want to see you well\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>13:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Andrew:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cbut we want to see you live in line with the truth of who God made you.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> So, if there is a soul issue, as we believe there is, when it comes to gender dysphoria, then, to try to correct a soul issue with a surgery is like trying to correct an earache by amputating the arm. You\u2019re dealing with the wrong source of the issue. You can do the surgery, but the soul hasn\u2019t been affected by the cutting. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Andrew, Bob just used a term there that you speak of in the book. I want you to unpack it for our listeners\u2014what is gender dysphoria? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Andrew:<\/strong> Gender dysphoria is a very kind of fancy psychological term for the anxiety or the distress that someone experiences if they sense an incongruence or disconnect between their gender identity and their biological sex. Let me unpack that even more, because that\u2019s even kind of complex. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tLet\u2019s imagine you have a male, who has x-y chromosomes\u2014 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>14:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014he is, unambiguously, male. This person might, in their mind, feel themselves to be female. Now, there\u2019s some ambiguity here of: \u201cHow do you feel female if you have a male body?\u201d There\u2019s some ambiguity around that. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And you\u2019ve got to throw into the middle of this: \u201cHow are we defining what is male and what is female?\u201d\u2014because, now, we live in a culture that says we shouldn\u2019t be classifying one thing as male or female. So, if I\u2019m feeling female: \u201cWhat does that even mean?\u201d\u2014right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Andrew:<\/strong> Correct. Everything is gender neutral. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Dennis:<\/strong> We\u2019ve been talking about this in, I guess, kind of abstract form. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Andrew:<\/strong> Sure. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Introduce us to a person you\u2019ve met who is transgender. I know we\u2019re not trying to characterize all people like this person; but there are many of our listeners, who may take a step back and go, \u201cI don\u2019t know anyone who is transgender.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014or \u201cI don\u2019t know if I know anyone who is transgender\u201d; right? \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Yes. So, tell us a little bit about a person, who is self-identifying\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Andrew:<\/strong> Sure. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014as a transgender male or female. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>15:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Andrew:<\/strong> That\u2019s a great question. I have not been asked that in the whole aftermath of my book, so I really appreciate that. I want to be really discreet and not give away any details, because a lot of people have confided in me in great confidence. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tOne thing that is super important to keep in mind is that whenever we, in the culture, attach an \u2013ism to anything\u2014so transgender becomes transgenderism\u2014it depersonalizes the issue and makes it abstract. What we always want to focus on, as Christians, is that every gender dysphoric individual, or gender-confused individual, or transgendered individual is a human being, and is a person, and is made in the image of God. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Andrew:<\/strong> We want to affirm that. Even if we disagree with how a person is identifying or living, we want to affirm their worth; and we want to respect them. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And we want to love them\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Andrew:<\/strong> Absolutely. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014and love them well. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Well, our love should not be value-graded for others based on our level of agreement with them\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Andrew:<\/strong> Absolutely. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014on anything. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>16:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Andrew:<\/strong> So, the individuals who I have talked with, who would identify as transgender\u2014the most important thing that I would say about them is that they are all not just\u2014they are not fire-breathing activists. These are individuals, who genuinely want to live happy and fulfilled lives. In some sense, we\u2019re all doing the same thing. So, at the end of the day, there is this question of: \u201cOkay; who gets to say what the good life ultimately is?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tBut back to these individuals\u2014these individuals that I\u2019ve talked with\u2014I have a lot in common. One person in particular is absolutely delightful. We have some serious disagreements on politics, and philosophy, and theology; but we have some similar kind of personal interests as far as music and as far as hobbies and activities. We\u2019re not hiding our differences, but we\u2019re able to understand that our differences don\u2019t define everything about us; because we, again, are all image-bearers\u2014we\u2019re all human beings made in the image of God. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>17:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWhat I think this allows us to do, as Christians, is to kind of understand that one person\u2019s struggles are different than my struggles; but we\u2019re all humans\u2014we are all beset in frail bodies that are experiencing the result of the fall\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Right. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014and we all have struggles. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Andrew:<\/strong> \u2014and we all have struggles. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014and we all have struggles in the sexual area. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Andrew:<\/strong> Absolutely. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I mean, one kind of sexual sin\u2014Jesus said this when He said, \u201cIf you look on a woman to lust, it\u2019s like committing adultery.\u201d We can\u2019t grade sexual sin and say, \u201cWell, this is kind of acceptable sexual sin,\u201d and \u201cThis is unacceptable sexual sin.\u201d It\u2019s all unacceptable before God. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI have some questions, definitionally\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Andrew:<\/strong> Sure. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014just help me here. If somebody says, \u201cYou know, I\u2019m a male \/ biologically, I\u2019m a male; but I have these feelings that are very feminine feelings. I sometimes think I would want to paint fingernails and toenails or I would want to cross-dress,\u201d\u2014things like that\u2014do they fit the title, \u201ctransgender\u201d; or do you have to be in the process of hormone therapy or surgery to qualify as a transgender person?\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>18:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Andrew:<\/strong> That\u2019s a great question. I wish that I was the final arbiter on the language here; because the language, honestly, is one of the most contested elements to the transgender issue. You could have someone, who is having feminine desires, call themselves just feminine\u2014they could attach \u201ctrans\u201d to that; that person could identify as gender-queer; that person could identify as a cross-dresser. There\u2019s a range of ways we could define someone. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat actually is a really good way to think about this. Transgenderism is kind of an umbrella category for individuals who take steps to kind of live in alignment with their gender identity. That\u2019s a much more kind of cultural, personal, social, and political identity\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Okay. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Andrew:<\/strong> \u2014identifier. Now, this is important; because there are gender dysphoric people, who experience that incongruence about their gender identity and their biological sex, who do not identify as transgender.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>19:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> They don\u2019t take any steps to try and conform. They feel it, but they don\u2019t act out on it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Andrew:<\/strong> Correct. I\u2019ve had individuals contact me through email, who have said: \u201cI read your book. Thank you for writing it. I am someone who has experienced feelings of gender incongruence my entire life. I\u2019m a Christian. I know that God made me as a male; but at the same time, I can\u2019t deny the fact that I have had these feelings where I\u2019ve thought of myself as female.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThat is really instructive for us\u2014for those of us inside the church\u2014because what that means is there are people for whom gender dysphoria is an unwanted, involuntary thing that occurs in the mind\u2014that they aren\u2019t taking steps to identify as transgender. They\u2019re just simply looking for a network of support and a community in a church that will commit to love them and walk alongside them through what could be some dark seasons when you look at the issues of depression and anxiety around it. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>20:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And I know there are listeners, right now, who are going, \u201cI\u2019ve got a lot more questions.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Andrew:<\/strong> Sure. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<br><strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Well, I want to encourage you to get a copy of Andrew Walker\u2019s book, <em>God and the Transgender Debate<\/em>; because I think you\u2019ll find that Andrew starts out, in a very gentle way, helping you understand what\u2019s behind the thinking in this and shows you how you can begin to understand someone who is struggling with this and who, as he just described a few moments ago, needs to experience love \/ needs to experience community within the faith. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tIf you think about it: \u201cWhere\u2019s the one place on the planet someone\u2014who is struggling with alcoholism, with being immoral, sexually, with the opposite sex or someone who is struggling with transgenderism\u2014where\u2019s the one place they can find hope of being loved for who they are\u2014made in the image of God\u2014but the church?\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>21:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Well, of course, we\u2019ve got copies of the book you\u2019re talking about in our <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Resource Center\u2014Andrew Walker\u2019s book, <em>God and the Transgender Debate: What Does the Bible Actually Say About Gender Identity?<\/em> You can go online to order from us at FamilyLifeToday.com, or call to order: 1-800-358-6329\u2014that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou know, our team just recently felt that this issue of identity\u2014not just gender identity but \u201cHow do you understand the whole question of identity?\u201d\u2014we felt this was so critical that we put together a getaway experience for parents and their teenage sons or teenage daughters\u2014an experience called <em>Passport2Identity<\/em><sup>\u2122<\/sup>. It\u2019s for moms and dads with 14-\/15-\/16-year-old children. Get away for a couple of days\u2014listen to the audio that we provide, work your way through a workbook, and have some great conversations about where identity comes from, how you can understand who you are \/ who God made you to be, and how you live that out. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>22:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tThis, of course, is a follow-up to the <em>Passport2Purity<\/em><em><sup>\u00ae<\/sup><\/em> resource that we created years ago. You can find out about both resources when you go to FamilyLifeToday.com. Again, the website: FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY if you\u2019d like more information about <em>Passport2Purity<\/em> or <em>Passport2Identity<\/em> or, again, Andrew Walker\u2019s book, <em>God and the Transgender Debate<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tYou know, our goal\u2014whether it\u2019s conversations like the one we\u2019re having today or the conversations we have at our <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em><em><sup>\u00ae<\/sup><\/em> marriage getaways\u2014all that we do at FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>\u2014the goal is the same; and that is to provide practical biblical help and hope for husbands and wives \/ for moms and dads\u2014for all of us as we seek to live out our faith in our families. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe\u2019ve got a new resource we\u2019ve been working on that we\u2019re about to release called <em>FamilyLife\u2019s Art of Parenting<\/em><sup>\u2122<\/sup>, an eight-session video series that will be available as a digital experience or as a small group curriculum\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>23:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014something you can go through with others. You should know\u2014we\u2019re working to develop strategies designed to take this content we\u2019ve developed and get it into the hands and hearts of people, who don\u2019t listen to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> and may not be going to a local church. We want to provide them with biblical instruction and give them an opportunity to hear and respond to the gospel as well. We\u2019ve calculated it\u2019s going to cost us about $10 per home to get this content into people\u2019s hands. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe\u2019re asking <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> listeners, \u201cHelp us reach more people, more often, with God\u2019s design for marriage and family.\u201d You can do that by making a donation today at FamilyLifeToday.com or call to donate at 1-800-FL-TODAY. When you do, we\u2019re going to send you a series of seven prayer cards so that, as a parent or a grandparent, you can be praying for your children or your grandchildren\u2014\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>24:00<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\u2014praying more specifically \/ more intentionally\u2014as we raise the next generation. We believe that really matters. Again, the prayer cards are our thank-you gift when you make a donation today. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tAnd we hope you\u2019ll join us back tomorrow as we continue to explore what the Bible has to say about gender identity and specifically transgenderism. Andrew Walker will be back with us tomorrow. I hope you can be back as well. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I\u2019m Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\tHelp for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\t<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\tCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2018 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.\n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/\">www.FamilyLife.com<\/a>\u00a0 \n\t\t\t<\/p>\n\t\t\t\n\t\t\t\t<p>\n\t\t\t\t\t1\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>","theme_header_position":"","post_header_is_sticky":"","is_header_overlay":""},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/300189","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/91"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=300189"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/294104"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=300189"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=300189"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=300189"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=300189"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=300189"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=300189"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}