{"id":300067,"date":"2019-02-26T12:00:00","date_gmt":"2019-02-26T17:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/transitions\/"},"modified":"2024-10-07T22:41:16","modified_gmt":"2024-10-08T02:41:16","slug":"transitions","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/transitions\/","title":{"rendered":"Transitions"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>guest: Ann Wilson, Dave Wilson | Series: Things We&#8217;ve Learned from Dennis and Barbara Rainey | There&#8217;s great value in remembering where you&#8217;ve come from. Dave and Ann share what the Raineys have taught them about marriage through their example, as well as their teaching. Ann&#8217;s biggest takeaway from the Rainey&#8217;s life is a great marriage is one that puts the marriage before the children. She shares how they&#8217;ve tried to put that principle into practice. Dave tells what he&#8217;s learned about making your spouse your main disciple.<\/p>\n<p>Show Notes and Resources<br \/>\n40 Years of Faithfulness 2 CD set<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>There&#8217;s great value in remembering where you&#8217;ve come from. Dave and Ann share what the Raineys have taught them about marriage through their example, as well as their teaching.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":91,"featured_media":294104,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"","audio_file":"https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2019-02-26.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:25:55","filesize":"23.74M","filesize_raw":"24889252","date_recorded":"","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2810,2862],"tags":[4096,4121,4122],"podcast_series":[7172],"cwp_profile":[3554,3295],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-300067","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-growing-spiritually","category-understanding-differences","tag-mentoring","tag-mentors","tag-teaching-by-example","podcast_series-things-weve-learned-from-dennis-and-barbara-rainey","cwp_profile-ann-wilson","cwp_profile-dave-wilson","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg?w=508","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/300067\/transitions","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/300067\/transitions","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"Iv315hCeHG\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/transitions\/\">Transitions<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/transitions\/embed\/#?secret=Iv315hCeHG\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Transitions&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"Iv315hCeHG\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"_wp_page_template":["default"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2019-02-26.pdf"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/web.familylifetoday.com\/fl2019-02-26.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Dave Wilson has had an experience that maybe you\u2019ve had. He has imagined, in his own mind, that Dennis and Barbara Rainey\u2019s marriage and family had to be a whole lot more perfect than his own.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> When we would be with you\u2014even like at a conference or with the speaker team\u2014we would fly home or get in a car; and we get in an argument; right?\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Every time.\n\n<strong>Barbara:<\/strong> Every time?\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Every time.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Every time, we got in a fight.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And the argument went like this: \u201cWhy can\u2019t you be more like Dennis?\u201d \u201cWhy can\u2019t we be more like the Raineys?\u201d\u2014thinking you had a family altar; you did this special thing. That\u2019s\u2014you didn\u2019t say that, we just picked that up, like, \u201cOh, we are so less than that.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I think I said things like, \u201cI bet the Raineys just have this Bible study together with their family in a circle.\u201d You know, our kids are throwing things\u2014\n\n<strong>Barbara:<\/strong> Oh, gosh.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014and hitting each other, but it\u2019s what I <em>thought<\/em>\u2014\n\n<strong>Barbara:<\/strong> It\u2019s what you imagined.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014imagined and expected, then, of Dave.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And then, she laid that on me; so I didn\u2019t even like you Dennis Rainey\u2014like, \u201cI\u2019m not that guy!\u201d [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Tuesday, February 26<sup>th<\/sup>. Our host is Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. Dennis and Barbara Rainey would be the first to tell you their marriage and their family is far from perfect. But we\u2019ve all sure benefited from the wisdom that they\u2019ve shared, over the years, about marriage and family. We\u2019ll hear more about that today. Stay with us.\n\nAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us on the Tuesday edition. I don\u2019t know who to turn to\u2014to start today\u2019s program. Do I turn to you, or do I turn to Dave and Ann?\n\n<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\n<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Has he fully taken over yet?\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> No; he\u2019s not taken over, so I\u2019ll turn to you.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Turn to me then. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Alright. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I\u2019m still the host of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, at least, for two or three more days\u2014\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; you are.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014last time I checked\u2014but the clock is ticking.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> This is a transition week. Some of our listeners may just now be hearing about this, and some of them may be gasping at the fact that a transition is about to occur. But this is something you\u2019ve been laying the groundwork for\u2014for many months\/many years, actually.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> About 15 months ago, Barbara and I stepped out of leadership of FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>\u2014passed the baton to David and Meg Robbins, who\u2019ve done a great job with FamilyLife and leading it. We\u2019re now passing the baton to Dave and Ann Wilson, who are going to host <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, moving forward. Barbara, you and I are excited about this; aren\u2019t we?\n\n<strong>Barbara:<\/strong> Well, we really are. It\u2019s been fun to sort of do these in tandem\u2014to hand off to David and Meg\u2014and to keep our hands and our feet in radio a little bit, because Dennis and I both have loved doing radio. We\u2019ve loved interacting with guests; we\u2019ve loved interacting over all kinds of topics and having a relationship with our audience. That\u2019s really, really been fun.\n\nI love that God orchestrated this so that we didn\u2019t transition everything all at once and that we were able to keep our involvement in radio for a bit longer, but the time has come. We know it\u2019s right\u2014it feels right; it is right. We love Dave and Ann\u2014we\u2019ve been fans of theirs for years\u2014and we\u2019re so excited that they\u2019re going to be taking the reins.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And so, I\u2019m out of here! [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> You\u2019re out of here?\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Not yet; not yet! [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I don\u2019t think so.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> For listeners, who don\u2019t know you guys\u2014\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Barbara and I are going to go on a date; you guys can work. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> They need a date\u2014go; go!\n\n<strong>Barbara:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> If listeners have seen <em>The<\/em> <em>Art of Marriage<\/em><sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, you guys have been a part of <em>The<\/em> <em>Art of Marriage<\/em> video series.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; the best moment in our marriage is on <em>The<\/em> <em>Art of Marriage<\/em>\u2014thank you very much. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You talk about kind of a transition point in your marriage, when things were not going well, and God got your attention. <em>Art of Parenting\u2122<\/em>\u2014you\u2019re contributors to the <em>Art of Parenting<\/em>. You\u2019ve just written a book called <em>Vertical Marriage<\/em>. Together, you\u2019ve helped plant a church in suburban Detroit called Kensington Church. You\u2019ve spoken at <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em><sup>\u00ae <\/sup>getaways, and on the <em>Love Like You Mean It<\/em><sup>\u00ae<\/sup> marriage cruise, and other events that we have done for, now, 30 years; so it\u2019s not like strangers are coming into the studio. It\u2019s like old friends are going to be sitting in here and warming the seats.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> It is, and I\u2019ve been thinking about these broadcasts. I know you\u2019re reflecting on some of the lessons that you\u2019ve learned from us, but I\u2019ve got a question\u2014\n\n<strong>Dave and Ann:<\/strong> Uh oh. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Here we go.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014that I want to ask both of you to answer before we\u2019re done today.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Alright.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Okay; what\u2019s the most courageous thing you\u2019ve ever done in all your life?\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Oh, that\u2019s a little light question to ask. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Courage is not the absence of fear. It\u2019s doing your duty in the face of fear. So when did you most fear?\u2014that demanded you had to dig down deep to do something really, really courageous. Hold your answers. We\u2019ll get to that before we\u2019re done here today.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Well, we\u2019ll save it; but we\u2019re going to turn the tables and let you guys talk about some of the things you\u2019ve learned from Dennis and Barbara over the years. Ann, you made the long list.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I did make a long\u2014there\u2019s a long list of many things I\u2019ve learned.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Just give us one of them. What\u2019s on your list?\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I\u2019m going to say\u2014I\u2019m going to tell you what number one was, because it was very impactful for me. Some people will be very surprised; because most people would say, if they\u2019ve grown up in the church, \u201cOf course, you should know this.\u201d But I didn\u2019t grow in the church, so I didn\u2019t know that a great marriage is when you put your marriage before your children; your spouse is more important than your kids.\n\nI think, growing up, I saw more people pour into their kids, and develop their kids, and put time and energy into their kids\u2014and the marriage relationship\u2014they didn\u2019t really think a whole lot about. So that was very new for me; and at times, hard to do because our kids are demanding\u2014they take our energy; they take our time. And sometimes, it is easier to love them than our spouse.\n\nTell us about that: \u201cHow did you learn that? Why did that become important to you?\u201d\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Well, someone has said that a child is a mother\u2019s heart walking around outside her body.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> So true.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I think this is more difficult for moms to do\u2014to not have the family solar system revolve around the kids\u2014but instead, of revolving, first of all, around Jesus Christ; but then around your husband and making sure that stays intact. That\u2019s something that Barbara has done a remarkable job of over the years. You might just share how you came to that conclusion and how you did that practically.\n\n<strong>Barbara:<\/strong> Well, I\u2019ll tell you how I came to that conclusion\u2014it was because of the <em>Weekend to Remember,<\/em> to be honest.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Really?\n\n<strong>Barbara:<\/strong> Yes, because we taught that. And for years\u2014I remember all those years we were raising kids, and I would go to the <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em> and speak. It was hard work; it was hard leaving the kids\u2014but when I got there, and I went through that material, and I sat and listened to Dennis\u2014and whoever the other speaker couples were\u2014and I listened to that and I went: \u201cOh, that\u2019s right. We need to work on that.\u201d I mean, it was always a realignment for me. And because that was a part of what we taught at the <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em>\u2014that your marriage must be built to outlast your children\u2014that was said over and over again at all the <em>Weekends to Remember<\/em>\u2014at least, the ones I went to; because he [Dennis] always made sure that was communicated from the front.\n\nIt was always a realignment for me, and it helped me; because I don\u2019t think I knew that either, coming into marriage. I don\u2019t know that my parents built their marriage to be first over the kids. Now, their marriage lasted\u2014my parents were married sixty-some odd years, like yours Ann\u2014but I don\u2019t know that they had that priority either. I don\u2019t know that I saw that modeled. It was a bit of a shift, mentally, for me to realize that the marriage relationship is more important than the kids.\n\nI agree with what Dennis said about children are a mom\u2019s heart walking around outside her body. For moms, it really is a constant realignment\/a constant mid-course correction: \u201cOh yeah, I need to be keeping my relationship with my husband more important than the kids.\u201d\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> It\u2019s almost counter intuitive, I think.\n\n<strong>Barbara:<\/strong> Yes; I think it is.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I think, when you have children, they\u2019re so needy; they demand so much. In fact, they have to have you to stay alive. It\u2019s easy to re-center around them.\n\nAnd yet, somewhere in the process of having six kids in ten years, I came to this conclusion: \u201cYou either invest in your marriage, or its not going to outlast your kids,\u201d because a lot of marriages don\u2019t outlast the kids. They leave each other before the kids are grown. That\u2019s a travesty for the kids\u2014not only for the marriage\u2014but the kids are then missing\u2014Dave, what you talked about; which is you\u2019re missing seeing a man and woman relate to one another in their selfishness\/in their brokenness. In their sacrifices for one another, they get a chance to see <em>real love<\/em> in the midst of all that takes place.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> You know, it\u2019s amazing\u2014Barbara, you\u2019re talking about it sort of re-centered you when you taught it. I was sitting here thinking, \u201cOf all the couples out here, listening, who want a better marriage\/want a better family, what\u2019s one of the <em>best<\/em> things they can do?\u201d\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Lead a Bible study.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; what you did\u2014is they do. What do they think?\u2014\u201cOh, somebody\u2019s got to pour into me. Somebody\u2019s got to help me,\u201d\u2014which is good and you need that. But man, when you take good content and you teach it\u2014\n\n<strong>Barbara:<\/strong> \u2014to somebody else.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014we grow more than anybody that we\u2019re teaching.\n\n<strong>Barbara:<\/strong> That\u2019s right.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And yet, that literally changed your life. I thought: \u201cAll those couples listening right now\u2014just go lead something. We have all these tools for you. Grab one; go lead\u2014watch what God does in your own marriage.\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I was thinking about the fact that Ann\u2014you needed the recalibration of: \u201cMy marriage is more important than my children. Marriage needs to be central.\u201d\n\nI think, Dave, for guys, family needs to be more important than work\u2014may be the tension that we fall into. And then, marriage needs to be the priority in the family is kind of secondary to that. But a lot of guys\u2014if mom\u2019s heart\u2019s gone with the kids\u2014guys are finding meaning, and fulfillment, and excitement, and purpose in a career. It\u2019s draining energy away from marriage and family; don\u2019t you think?\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I would love to say that was other guys; but yes, I was and I still struggle. You know, it isn\u2019t like \u201cI got it.\u201d I struggle\u2014so many men do\u2014giving my heart\/my passion to a mission outside my home. Even though I teach it\u2014and I know my mission is my home, and my kids are my number-one disciples\u2014they\u2019re all grown, now, with grandkids\u2014but man, I\u2019m driving out there, and it\u2019s so easy to lose myself in my job. I mean, it almost destroyed our marriage\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014that very thing.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Dave, could I just say one thing?\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Uh oh. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Your wife is your number-one disciple.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> There you go!\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> <em>Yes!<\/em> [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> There you go.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> You with me? I\u2019m not doing that\u2014\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> He\u2019s right.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I know you\u2019re not.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014I\u2019m not doing that to correct Dave. I\u2019m just saying, \u201cThat\u2019s the temptation\u2014to make your kids\u2014\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I know.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cthe focal point of ministry.\u201d\n\nIn fact, I\u2019ve gotten letters, here, when I\u2019ve said this in the past. And by the way, that quote does not come from me, originally. It came from the Founder of what was then Campus Crusade for Christ<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, Dr. Bill Bright. He said to us, as a group of men, \u201cYour wife is your number-one disciple, men.\u201d When I\u2019ve said that in the past, I\u2019ve gotten letters and emails from women, who are absolutely <em>livid<\/em> with anger; because they feel like we are diminishing a woman\u2019s value and dignity that a <em>man<\/em> would disciple her.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014that she needs to be discipled\/that she needs\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> That makes us feel less then. Dennis, what does that look like? I think, when women hear that, we\u2019re like, \u201cOh, is it because I don\u2019t know anything, and he\u2019s supposed to give me all of his wisdom?\u201d And then, there\u2019s another group of women that are thinking, \u201cWell, I would love my husband to do that; but I\u2019m in the Word more than he is, and he doesn\u2019t seem to have any interest.\u201d How does that play out practically?\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Well, early in our marriage, Barbara was in the Word more than I was. She was looking down on me, going, \u201cYou can\u2019t disciple me, because you don\u2019t have a quiet time like I have.\u201d It wasn\u2019t a visible situation, where she could look and say, \u201cOh, there he is, over there in a corner, in his chair, reading the Bible.\u201d Why don\u2019t you comment on it, sweetheart? How would you say men should disciple their wives?\n\n<strong>Barbara:<\/strong> That\u2019s a loaded question. [Laughter] I think partly because\u2014the reason that was my response is because I think all men are different. That was the lesson for me, as a young wife, because I was looking, critically, at my husband because he wasn\u2019t doing it the way I thought he should. I had read enough books and heard enough people, who sat around with their kids or with their\u2014and they did Bible study together. He led the family in devotions. I had this idealistic picture, in my head, of what it was supposed to look like.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Oh, me, too, Barbara\u2014I had that.\n\n<strong>Barbara:<\/strong> That isn\u2019t what it looked like in our home. He was growing with Christ; he was reading his Bible\u2014I just didn\u2019t see it, so what I saw didn\u2019t match what I imagined. I think that happens a lot for women as we have this imagination\/this image of what it should be like.\n\nWhat I had to do is\u2014I had to learn to say: \u201cLord, You made him the way he is. It\u2019s his responsibility to follow You; and it\u2019s Your responsibility, as God, to lead him. I just have to trust You with the way You made him\u2014that it\u2019s not like me and it\u2019s a good thing it\u2019s not like me.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> And so what did it look like for him to lead you? What\u2019s that <em>mean<\/em>?\u2014what\u2019s that look like?\n\n<strong>Barbara:<\/strong> Well, for us, it was just very different than what I expected. The way Dennis led me and our family wasn\u2019t in a formal sense. It wasn\u2019t: \u201cSit down; let\u2019s read the Bible. Okay; check that off the list,\u201d and we move on. Dennis led me and led our family as a lifestyle. He led\u2014day by day\/moment by moment\u2014in the ins and outs of family. I know that sounds really vague, but it\u2019s not. Leading your family isn\u2019t just a one-hour or a ten-minute devotion you do, and you can move on to the next thing.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> It\u2019s Deuteronomy 6.\n\n<strong>Barbara:<\/strong> Yes; yes, that\u2019s the verse.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> It\u2019s walk by the way while you rise. It\u2019s so much a part of your life that it\u2019s just woven into the fabric of what you\u2019re doing.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And I would say one of the ways that I did it was to pray <em>with<\/em> my wife\u2014key preposition\u2014with\u2014as a co-heir of the grace of life. Pray together <em>with<\/em> her. Secondly, pray <em>for<\/em> her: \u201cWhat are your needs, sweetheart? Where are you struggling?\u201d\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> It is interesting\u2014listening to you talk about it now. I don\u2019t know what you\u2019re thinking, but here\u2019s what I remember\u2014when we would be with you, even like at a conference or with the speaker team\u2014we would fly home or get in a car, and we get in an argument; right?\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014every time\n\n<strong>Barbara:<\/strong> Every time?\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Every time.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Every time, we got in a fight.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And the argument went like this: \u201cWhy can\u2019t you be more like Dennis? Why can\u2019t we be more like the Raineys?\u201d\u2014thinking\u2014am I right?\u2014you had a family altar; you did this special thing. That\u2019s\u2014you didn\u2019t say that; we just picked that up,\u00a0 like, \u201cOh, we are so less than that.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I think I said things like \u201cI bet the Raineys just have this Bible study together with their family in a circle.\u201d You know, our kids are throwing things\u2014\n\n<strong>Barbara:<\/strong> Oh, gosh.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014and hitting each other, but it\u2019s what I <em>thought<\/em>\u2014\n\n<strong>Barbara:<\/strong> It\u2019s what you imagined.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014imagined; and expected, then, of Dave.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And then, she laid that on me; so I didn\u2019t even like you, Dennis Rainey\u2014I\u2019m like: \u201cI\u2019m not that guy. [Laughter] I don\u2019t even think he\u2019s that good,\u201d you know? But that\u2019s what she laid on me\u2014she really did. There would be arguments about this. I\u2019m like: \u201cI\u2019m different. I do it a different way.\u201d What you just said is sort of how we did it. Now, we look back over decades and go, \u201cWow; God led us in a similar way that He led you to do it,\u201d\u2014I call it the Hebrew model. You know, the Greek model is your dump truck: \u201cHere it is. You\u2019re going to have to remember all of this on the final next week.\u201d\n\nThe Hebrew model is a way of life\/apprentice, and that\u2019s what you are doing. I remember, one time, sitting with them\u2014and I think you modeled this\u2014I was sitting with my youngest son, watching a TV show. There was something on the show that insinuated this couple was living together, having sex. I hit the pause button; and again, I\u2019m like, \u201cHere is a teachable moment.\u201d I said, \u201cHey Cody, so what do you think about them having sex before marriage?\u201d He goes, \u201cIt\u2019s wrong,\u201d\u2014he was 16. I go, \u201cYes; why is it wrong?\u201d \u201cBible says so.\u201d I go, \u201cWhere does it say that in the Bible?\u201d \u201cI have no idea.\u201d [Laughter] I remember running into my office, grabbing a Bible and teaching him how to use a concordance, and say, \u201cOkay; let\u2019s walk this through.\u201d It was like one of those teachable moments. That wasn\u2019t what she [Ann] wanted.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Well, I don\u2019t think I knew what I wanted.\n\n<strong>Barbara:<\/strong> See; I didn\u2019t know what I wanted either. I had this imagination too\u2014this idea of what it should like. I was just as critical of Dennis. That\u2019s the problem in marriages\u2014is that we are looking to other people instead of looking to Christ, because He deals with us so individually. I <em>love<\/em> that about God\u2014is that He made us unique individuals. He\u2019s going to lead us, as a couple, differently than He leads you. There are a lot of principles that are the same that He wants to apply in both of our lives, but we need to be looking to Him and not to other people. That\u2019s where we make our big mistake\u2014we look at others.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> In John, Chapter 15, Jesus summarized the Christian life\u2014He says: \u201cAbide in Me,\u201d and also \u201cMy words shall abide in you.\u201d If you do that\u2014if you abide in Him and His words abide in you, there\u2019s fruit. What is life?\u2014but deciding what you\u2019re going to draw your source of life from. You going to draw it from Jesus and from the Bible?\u2014or are you going to draw your source of life from your bank account?\u2014from how much you accumulate?\u2014for how popular you are?\u2014for your status in the community?\n\nI think the way to lead your wife, guys, is to be a man who draws his life\/his decisions\u2014you\u2019re making decisions, asking God: \u201cGive me wisdom. Show me how to lead this family. I don\u2019t know what I\u2019m doing, God,\u201d because I didn\u2019t. I promise you\u2014many times, I didn\u2019t. And by the way, it doesn\u2019t change as you get older\u2014new seasons\/new challenges\u2014\u201cWhat exactly are you going to do after this transition is over, Dennis?\u201d\u2014\u201cI don\u2019t know! I\u2019m depending upon God; I\u2019m walking by faith. I don\u2019t know any other way of doing it that has a chance of producing fruit.\u201d\n\nSo, if a guy wants to know how to lead his wife, first of all, ask her, \u201cWhat does that mean, sweetheart?\u201d Don\u2019t be defensive or critical. Her expectations may be like Ann\u2019s and Barbara\u2019s\u2014<em>all wrong<\/em>. [Laughter] They just had high expectations. And that\u2019s part of why we married them, because they called us to step up\u2014they called us to be better men; right?\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; yes.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> So ask your wife, \u201cWhat does it mean for me to lead you spiritually?\u201d And the reality is now, after being married for 46 years, we do have a quiet time together\u2014not every morning but it\u2019s pretty close\u2014and there\u2019s a lot of discussion, back and forth.\n\n<strong>Barbara:<\/strong> \u2014because there are no little people in the room. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> That\u2019s exactly right, and we finally can talk and have those conversations.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I\u2019ve got to chime in here for just a second; because in late July of 1992, Mary Ann and I went to dinner at the Rainey\u2019s house for the first time. The only picture I have in my mind of where we\u2019re headed is the picture on the back of their book, where Barbara is seated in a chair with a lovely dress and her hair is made perfectly. Dennis is wearing a suit; and he\u2019s standing there, smiling with his hand on her shoulder\u2014that\u2019s what I think I\u2019m going to.\n\nWe get there, and it\u2019s a mess! I think we looked at each other [Bob and Mary Ann] and said: \u201cOkay; alright. We can maybe fit in here somewhere, because it\u2019s as messy as our lives are.\u201d That\u2019s where we have to recognize: \u201cWe\u2019re living real lives as real people, with real messes and real mistakes; and we\u2019ve got to give each other a lot of grace.\u201d I tell guys, all the time\u2014and women too\u2014\u201cHere\u2019s the job\u2014drink in and then pour out\u2014drink in; pour out.\u201d A lot of guys short-circuit, because they\u2019re not drinking in in the first place.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Right; you\u2019re speaking of the Bible, at this point.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And you can\u2019t pour out if you\u2019re not drinking in; right? Yes; if you\u2019re not receiving grace from God through the study of His Word and fellowship with other believers\u2014if that\u2019s not happening to you\u2014you\u2019ve got nothing to pour out. But if that is happening to you\u2014and if it\u2019s happening in abundance\u2014it will <em>spill<\/em> out of you. It almost\u2014you can\u2019t help it, because it\u2019s poured in; now, it\u2019s overflowing in what you\u2019re doing.\n\nSo step one: \u201cIf a guy\u2019s thinking, \u2018Yes; I should lead my family,\u2019 well, you\u2019ve got to drink in before you can lead\/before you can pour anything out. You\u2019ve got to be drinking in.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And you shouldn\u2019t wait until you feel like you\u2019re full\u2014\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Right!\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Good point.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014before you lead.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> That\u2019s right.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Step out and attempt to lead your wife\/your family by faith. By the way, wives, when he does something right, and you catch him\u2014[Laughter]\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014cheer!\n\n<strong>Barbara:<\/strong> \u2014cheer; right.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014cheer him on. I mean, give him an \u201c<em>Atta boy<\/em>!\u201d Put a big ole smooch on his lips and say, \u201cI am so proud of you!\u201d Really! I just want to say\u2014\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Did you say smooch on his lips?\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I said smooch.\n\n<strong>Barbara:<\/strong> He did. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> That\u2019s what he said; okay!\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> What would you have called it?\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I\u2019d just say\u2014\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u201cKiss him!\u201d\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cGive [him] a lot\u2014a lot of lips.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> He\u2019d say, \u201cMake out with him.\u201d [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> If our listeners are interested in knowing more about you guys [Dave and Ann],\u00a0 and about your marriage, and about the lessons you\u2019ve learned from the mistakes you\u2019ve made in marriage, they can get a copy of your book, <em>Vertical Marriage<\/em>, which has just been released. We\u2019ve got copies of it in our <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Resource Center. You can go, online, to order your copy; or call us at 1-800-FL-TODAY. The website: FamilyLifeToday.com. Again, the number is 1-800-358-6329\u2014that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d Ask for your copy of the book, <em>Vertical Marriage<\/em>.\n\nWe\u2019ve also got a gift we\u2019d love to send to you. Dennis and Barbara and I sat down\u2014this was not that long ago\u2014and we just talked about all God has done during the first four decades of the ministry of FamilyLife. This ministry began back in 1976. Nobody imagined that God would use it the way that He has chosen to use it and bless it the way that God has chosen to bless it, but it\u2019s been pretty remarkable\u2014and to have the opportunity to share that with those of you who may not be familiar with the history of this ministry and with Dennis and Barbara\u2019s legacy.\n\nWe\u2019d love to send you two CDs, where we talk about those first 40 years and bring you up to date with how God\u2019s been at work through this ministry over that period of time. The CDs are our gift to you\u2014just call and request them\u2014or go online\u2014give us your name and address, and we\u2019ll mail them out to you\u2014no cost. Again, the website is FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY to get your copy of these CDs.\n\nNow, we\u2019re not done. We\u2019ve got the new President of FamilyLife, David Robbins, who has stopped in with some final thoughts about today\u2019s program. Hey, David.\n\n<strong>David:<\/strong> Hey Bob. You know, one of the things that I heard Barbara say really struck a cord with my ministry experience of being in ministry for two decades. When she said, \u201cYou want to know how to have a better marriage? Well, lead a Bible study.\u201d I know some of you may be thinking, \u201cHow does that work?\u201d\n\nIt\u2019s simply the principle that, when you act on truth, it moves deeper into your souls. When couples, together, seek to have an impact in other people\u2019s lives\u2014when they express out\u2014it means it\u2019s coming from a place where it\u2019s real themselves, and they\u2019re having to experience it themselves. We often find ourselves growing, because we\u2019re having to process and communicate and act on the very things that we\u2019re trying to pass on to someone else. I think one of the things to realize is that you don\u2019t need to have it all figured out. As they said today: \u201cDrink it in; pour it out. Abide, and the fruit will come.\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes; that\u2019s good. Well, let me encourage listeners to join us again tomorrow. Dave and Ann Wilson will be back. We\u2019re going to continue to talk about how we have all been impacted by the authenticity\/the transparency\u2014the lives of Dennis and Barbara Rainey. I hope you can tune in to be a part of that tomorrow.\n\nI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\n\n<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\n<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\nWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\n\nCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2019 FamilyLife. 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});\";s:18:\"current_block_list\";a:17:{i:0;s:14:\"uagb\/container\";i:1;s:12:\"core\/heading\";i:2;s:9:\"core\/html\";i:3;s:10:\"core\/group\";i:6;s:21:\"uagb\/advanced-heading\";i:7;s:14:\"uagb\/separator\";i:8;s:14:\"uagb\/icon-list\";i:9;s:20:\"uagb\/icon-list-child\";i:10;s:11:\"core\/search\";i:13;s:18:\"core\/legacy-widget\";i:16;s:10:\"uagb\/image\";i:17;s:17:\"core\/social-links\";i:18;s:16:\"core\/social-link\";i:19;s:14:\"core\/paragraph\";i:20;s:30:\"meta-box\/fl-conditional-blocks\";i:21;s:12:\"uagb\/buttons\";i:22;s:18:\"uagb\/buttons-child\";}s:8:\"uag_flag\";b:1;s:11:\"uag_version\";i:1776621791;s:6:\"gfonts\";a:1:{s:7:\"Default\";a:2:{s:10:\"fontfamily\";s:7:\"Default\";s:12:\"fontvariants\";a:0:{}}}s:10:\"gfonts_url\";s:71:\"\/\/fonts.googleapis.com\/css?family=Default&subset=latin&display=fallback\";s:12:\"gfonts_files\";a:0:{}s:14:\"uag_faq_layout\";b:0;}"]},"uagb_featured_image_src":{"full":["https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/09\/FLT-Podcast-Cover-2-508x508-3.jpg",508,508,false]},"uagb_author_info":{"display_name":"kfairris@familylife.com","author_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/author\/kfairrisfamilylife-com\/"},"uagb_comment_info":0,"uagb_excerpt":"There's great value in remembering where you've come from. Dave and Ann share what the Raineys have taught them about marriage through their example, as well as their teaching.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylifetoday.com\/fl2019-02-26.pdf","transcript_content":"<strong>Bob: <\/strong>Dave Wilson has had an experience that maybe you\u2019ve had. He has imagined, in his own mind, that Dennis and Barbara Rainey\u2019s marriage and family had to be a whole lot more perfect than his own.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> When we would be with you\u2014even like at a conference or with the speaker team\u2014we would fly home or get in a car; and we get in an argument; right?\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Every time.\n\n<strong>Barbara:<\/strong> Every time?\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Every time.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Every time, we got in a fight.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And the argument went like this: \u201cWhy can\u2019t you be more like Dennis?\u201d \u201cWhy can\u2019t we be more like the Raineys?\u201d\u2014thinking you had a family altar; you did this special thing. That\u2019s\u2014you didn\u2019t say that, we just picked that up, like, \u201cOh, we are so less than that.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I think I said things like, \u201cI bet the Raineys just have this Bible study together with their family in a circle.\u201d You know, our kids are throwing things\u2014\n\n<strong>Barbara:<\/strong> Oh, gosh.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014and hitting each other, but it\u2019s what I <em>thought<\/em>\u2014\n\n<strong>Barbara:<\/strong> It\u2019s what you imagined.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014imagined and expected, then, of Dave.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And then, she laid that on me; so I didn\u2019t even like you Dennis Rainey\u2014like, \u201cI\u2019m not that guy!\u201d [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Bob: <\/strong>This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> for Tuesday, February 26<sup>th<\/sup>. Our host is Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. Dennis and Barbara Rainey would be the first to tell you their marriage and their family is far from perfect. But we\u2019ve all sure benefited from the wisdom that they\u2019ve shared, over the years, about marriage and family. We\u2019ll hear more about that today. Stay with us.\n\nAnd welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>. Thanks for joining us on the Tuesday edition. I don\u2019t know who to turn to\u2014to start today\u2019s program. Do I turn to you, or do I turn to Dave and Ann?\n\n<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\n<strong>Dennis: <\/strong>Has he fully taken over yet?\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> No; he\u2019s not taken over, so I\u2019ll turn to you.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Turn to me then. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Alright. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I\u2019m still the host of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, at least, for two or three more days\u2014\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; you are.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014last time I checked\u2014but the clock is ticking.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> This is a transition week. Some of our listeners may just now be hearing about this, and some of them may be gasping at the fact that a transition is about to occur. But this is something you\u2019ve been laying the groundwork for\u2014for many months\/many years, actually.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> About 15 months ago, Barbara and I stepped out of leadership of FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>\u2014passed the baton to David and Meg Robbins, who\u2019ve done a great job with FamilyLife and leading it. We\u2019re now passing the baton to Dave and Ann Wilson, who are going to host <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, moving forward. Barbara, you and I are excited about this; aren\u2019t we?\n\n<strong>Barbara:<\/strong> Well, we really are. It\u2019s been fun to sort of do these in tandem\u2014to hand off to David and Meg\u2014and to keep our hands and our feet in radio a little bit, because Dennis and I both have loved doing radio. We\u2019ve loved interacting with guests; we\u2019ve loved interacting over all kinds of topics and having a relationship with our audience. That\u2019s really, really been fun.\n\nI love that God orchestrated this so that we didn\u2019t transition everything all at once and that we were able to keep our involvement in radio for a bit longer, but the time has come. We know it\u2019s right\u2014it feels right; it is right. We love Dave and Ann\u2014we\u2019ve been fans of theirs for years\u2014and we\u2019re so excited that they\u2019re going to be taking the reins.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And so, I\u2019m out of here! [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> You\u2019re out of here?\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Not yet; not yet! [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I don\u2019t think so.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> For listeners, who don\u2019t know you guys\u2014\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Barbara and I are going to go on a date; you guys can work. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> They need a date\u2014go; go!\n\n<strong>Barbara:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> If listeners have seen <em>The<\/em> <em>Art of Marriage<\/em><sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, you guys have been a part of <em>The<\/em> <em>Art of Marriage<\/em> video series.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; the best moment in our marriage is on <em>The<\/em> <em>Art of Marriage<\/em>\u2014thank you very much. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> You talk about kind of a transition point in your marriage, when things were not going well, and God got your attention. <em>Art of Parenting\u2122<\/em>\u2014you\u2019re contributors to the <em>Art of Parenting<\/em>. You\u2019ve just written a book called <em>Vertical Marriage<\/em>. Together, you\u2019ve helped plant a church in suburban Detroit called Kensington Church. You\u2019ve spoken at <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em><sup>\u00ae <\/sup>getaways, and on the <em>Love Like You Mean It<\/em><sup>\u00ae<\/sup> marriage cruise, and other events that we have done for, now, 30 years; so it\u2019s not like strangers are coming into the studio. It\u2019s like old friends are going to be sitting in here and warming the seats.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> It is, and I\u2019ve been thinking about these broadcasts. I know you\u2019re reflecting on some of the lessons that you\u2019ve learned from us, but I\u2019ve got a question\u2014\n\n<strong>Dave and Ann:<\/strong> Uh oh. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Here we go.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014that I want to ask both of you to answer before we\u2019re done today.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Alright.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Okay; what\u2019s the most courageous thing you\u2019ve ever done in all your life?\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Oh, that\u2019s a little light question to ask. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Courage is not the absence of fear. It\u2019s doing your duty in the face of fear. So when did you most fear?\u2014that demanded you had to dig down deep to do something really, really courageous. Hold your answers. We\u2019ll get to that before we\u2019re done here today.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Well, we\u2019ll save it; but we\u2019re going to turn the tables and let you guys talk about some of the things you\u2019ve learned from Dennis and Barbara over the years. Ann, you made the long list.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I did make a long\u2014there\u2019s a long list of many things I\u2019ve learned.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Just give us one of them. What\u2019s on your list?\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I\u2019m going to say\u2014I\u2019m going to tell you what number one was, because it was very impactful for me. Some people will be very surprised; because most people would say, if they\u2019ve grown up in the church, \u201cOf course, you should know this.\u201d But I didn\u2019t grow in the church, so I didn\u2019t know that a great marriage is when you put your marriage before your children; your spouse is more important than your kids.\n\nI think, growing up, I saw more people pour into their kids, and develop their kids, and put time and energy into their kids\u2014and the marriage relationship\u2014they didn\u2019t really think a whole lot about. So that was very new for me; and at times, hard to do because our kids are demanding\u2014they take our energy; they take our time. And sometimes, it is easier to love them than our spouse.\n\nTell us about that: \u201cHow did you learn that? Why did that become important to you?\u201d\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Well, someone has said that a child is a mother\u2019s heart walking around outside her body.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> So true.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I think this is more difficult for moms to do\u2014to not have the family solar system revolve around the kids\u2014but instead, of revolving, first of all, around Jesus Christ; but then around your husband and making sure that stays intact. That\u2019s something that Barbara has done a remarkable job of over the years. You might just share how you came to that conclusion and how you did that practically.\n\n<strong>Barbara:<\/strong> Well, I\u2019ll tell you how I came to that conclusion\u2014it was because of the <em>Weekend to Remember,<\/em> to be honest.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Really?\n\n<strong>Barbara:<\/strong> Yes, because we taught that. And for years\u2014I remember all those years we were raising kids, and I would go to the <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em> and speak. It was hard work; it was hard leaving the kids\u2014but when I got there, and I went through that material, and I sat and listened to Dennis\u2014and whoever the other speaker couples were\u2014and I listened to that and I went: \u201cOh, that\u2019s right. We need to work on that.\u201d I mean, it was always a realignment for me. And because that was a part of what we taught at the <em>Weekend to Remember<\/em>\u2014that your marriage must be built to outlast your children\u2014that was said over and over again at all the <em>Weekends to Remember<\/em>\u2014at least, the ones I went to; because he [Dennis] always made sure that was communicated from the front.\n\nIt was always a realignment for me, and it helped me; because I don\u2019t think I knew that either, coming into marriage. I don\u2019t know that my parents built their marriage to be first over the kids. Now, their marriage lasted\u2014my parents were married sixty-some odd years, like yours Ann\u2014but I don\u2019t know that they had that priority either. I don\u2019t know that I saw that modeled. It was a bit of a shift, mentally, for me to realize that the marriage relationship is more important than the kids.\n\nI agree with what Dennis said about children are a mom\u2019s heart walking around outside her body. For moms, it really is a constant realignment\/a constant mid-course correction: \u201cOh yeah, I need to be keeping my relationship with my husband more important than the kids.\u201d\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> It\u2019s almost counter intuitive, I think.\n\n<strong>Barbara:<\/strong> Yes; I think it is.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I think, when you have children, they\u2019re so needy; they demand so much. In fact, they have to have you to stay alive. It\u2019s easy to re-center around them.\n\nAnd yet, somewhere in the process of having six kids in ten years, I came to this conclusion: \u201cYou either invest in your marriage, or its not going to outlast your kids,\u201d because a lot of marriages don\u2019t outlast the kids. They leave each other before the kids are grown. That\u2019s a travesty for the kids\u2014not only for the marriage\u2014but the kids are then missing\u2014Dave, what you talked about; which is you\u2019re missing seeing a man and woman relate to one another in their selfishness\/in their brokenness. In their sacrifices for one another, they get a chance to see <em>real love<\/em> in the midst of all that takes place.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> You know, it\u2019s amazing\u2014Barbara, you\u2019re talking about it sort of re-centered you when you taught it. I was sitting here thinking, \u201cOf all the couples out here, listening, who want a better marriage\/want a better family, what\u2019s one of the <em>best<\/em> things they can do?\u201d\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Lead a Bible study.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; what you did\u2014is they do. What do they think?\u2014\u201cOh, somebody\u2019s got to pour into me. Somebody\u2019s got to help me,\u201d\u2014which is good and you need that. But man, when you take good content and you teach it\u2014\n\n<strong>Barbara:<\/strong> \u2014to somebody else.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014we grow more than anybody that we\u2019re teaching.\n\n<strong>Barbara:<\/strong> That\u2019s right.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And yet, that literally changed your life. I thought: \u201cAll those couples listening right now\u2014just go lead something. We have all these tools for you. Grab one; go lead\u2014watch what God does in your own marriage.\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I was thinking about the fact that Ann\u2014you needed the recalibration of: \u201cMy marriage is more important than my children. Marriage needs to be central.\u201d\n\nI think, Dave, for guys, family needs to be more important than work\u2014may be the tension that we fall into. And then, marriage needs to be the priority in the family is kind of secondary to that. But a lot of guys\u2014if mom\u2019s heart\u2019s gone with the kids\u2014guys are finding meaning, and fulfillment, and excitement, and purpose in a career. It\u2019s draining energy away from marriage and family; don\u2019t you think?\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I would love to say that was other guys; but yes, I was and I still struggle. You know, it isn\u2019t like \u201cI got it.\u201d I struggle\u2014so many men do\u2014giving my heart\/my passion to a mission outside my home. Even though I teach it\u2014and I know my mission is my home, and my kids are my number-one disciples\u2014they\u2019re all grown, now, with grandkids\u2014but man, I\u2019m driving out there, and it\u2019s so easy to lose myself in my job. I mean, it almost destroyed our marriage\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Yes.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014that very thing.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Dave, could I just say one thing?\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Uh oh. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Your wife is your number-one disciple.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> There you go!\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> <em>Yes!<\/em> [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> There you go.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> You with me? I\u2019m not doing that\u2014\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> He\u2019s right.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I know you\u2019re not.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014I\u2019m not doing that to correct Dave. I\u2019m just saying, \u201cThat\u2019s the temptation\u2014to make your kids\u2014\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Right.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I know.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cthe focal point of ministry.\u201d\n\nIn fact, I\u2019ve gotten letters, here, when I\u2019ve said this in the past. And by the way, that quote does not come from me, originally. It came from the Founder of what was then Campus Crusade for Christ<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, Dr. Bill Bright. He said to us, as a group of men, \u201cYour wife is your number-one disciple, men.\u201d When I\u2019ve said that in the past, I\u2019ve gotten letters and emails from women, who are absolutely <em>livid<\/em> with anger; because they feel like we are diminishing a woman\u2019s value and dignity that a <em>man<\/em> would disciple her.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> \u2014that she needs to be discipled\/that she needs\u2014\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> That makes us feel less then. Dennis, what does that look like? I think, when women hear that, we\u2019re like, \u201cOh, is it because I don\u2019t know anything, and he\u2019s supposed to give me all of his wisdom?\u201d And then, there\u2019s another group of women that are thinking, \u201cWell, I would love my husband to do that; but I\u2019m in the Word more than he is, and he doesn\u2019t seem to have any interest.\u201d How does that play out practically?\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Well, early in our marriage, Barbara was in the Word more than I was. She was looking down on me, going, \u201cYou can\u2019t disciple me, because you don\u2019t have a quiet time like I have.\u201d It wasn\u2019t a visible situation, where she could look and say, \u201cOh, there he is, over there in a corner, in his chair, reading the Bible.\u201d Why don\u2019t you comment on it, sweetheart? How would you say men should disciple their wives?\n\n<strong>Barbara:<\/strong> That\u2019s a loaded question. [Laughter] I think partly because\u2014the reason that was my response is because I think all men are different. That was the lesson for me, as a young wife, because I was looking, critically, at my husband because he wasn\u2019t doing it the way I thought he should. I had read enough books and heard enough people, who sat around with their kids or with their\u2014and they did Bible study together. He led the family in devotions. I had this idealistic picture, in my head, of what it was supposed to look like.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Oh, me, too, Barbara\u2014I had that.\n\n<strong>Barbara:<\/strong> That isn\u2019t what it looked like in our home. He was growing with Christ; he was reading his Bible\u2014I just didn\u2019t see it, so what I saw didn\u2019t match what I imagined. I think that happens a lot for women as we have this imagination\/this image of what it should be like.\n\nWhat I had to do is\u2014I had to learn to say: \u201cLord, You made him the way he is. It\u2019s his responsibility to follow You; and it\u2019s Your responsibility, as God, to lead him. I just have to trust You with the way You made him\u2014that it\u2019s not like me and it\u2019s a good thing it\u2019s not like me.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> And so what did it look like for him to lead you? What\u2019s that <em>mean<\/em>?\u2014what\u2019s that look like?\n\n<strong>Barbara:<\/strong> Well, for us, it was just very different than what I expected. The way Dennis led me and our family wasn\u2019t in a formal sense. It wasn\u2019t: \u201cSit down; let\u2019s read the Bible. Okay; check that off the list,\u201d and we move on. Dennis led me and led our family as a lifestyle. He led\u2014day by day\/moment by moment\u2014in the ins and outs of family. I know that sounds really vague, but it\u2019s not. Leading your family isn\u2019t just a one-hour or a ten-minute devotion you do, and you can move on to the next thing.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> It\u2019s Deuteronomy 6.\n\n<strong>Barbara:<\/strong> Yes; yes, that\u2019s the verse.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> It\u2019s walk by the way while you rise. It\u2019s so much a part of your life that it\u2019s just woven into the fabric of what you\u2019re doing.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And I would say one of the ways that I did it was to pray <em>with<\/em> my wife\u2014key preposition\u2014with\u2014as a co-heir of the grace of life. Pray together <em>with<\/em> her. Secondly, pray <em>for<\/em> her: \u201cWhat are your needs, sweetheart? Where are you struggling?\u201d\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> It is interesting\u2014listening to you talk about it now. I don\u2019t know what you\u2019re thinking, but here\u2019s what I remember\u2014when we would be with you, even like at a conference or with the speaker team\u2014we would fly home or get in a car, and we get in an argument; right?\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014every time\n\n<strong>Barbara:<\/strong> Every time?\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Every time.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Every time, we got in a fight.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And the argument went like this: \u201cWhy can\u2019t you be more like Dennis? Why can\u2019t we be more like the Raineys?\u201d\u2014thinking\u2014am I right?\u2014you had a family altar; you did this special thing. That\u2019s\u2014you didn\u2019t say that; we just picked that up,\u00a0 like, \u201cOh, we are so less than that.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> I think I said things like \u201cI bet the Raineys just have this Bible study together with their family in a circle.\u201d You know, our kids are throwing things\u2014\n\n<strong>Barbara:<\/strong> Oh, gosh.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014and hitting each other, but it\u2019s what I <em>thought<\/em>\u2014\n\n<strong>Barbara:<\/strong> It\u2019s what you imagined.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014imagined; and expected, then, of Dave.\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> And then, she laid that on me; so I didn\u2019t even like you, Dennis Rainey\u2014I\u2019m like: \u201cI\u2019m not that guy. [Laughter] I don\u2019t even think he\u2019s that good,\u201d you know? But that\u2019s what she laid on me\u2014she really did. There would be arguments about this. I\u2019m like: \u201cI\u2019m different. I do it a different way.\u201d What you just said is sort of how we did it. Now, we look back over decades and go, \u201cWow; God led us in a similar way that He led you to do it,\u201d\u2014I call it the Hebrew model. You know, the Greek model is your dump truck: \u201cHere it is. You\u2019re going to have to remember all of this on the final next week.\u201d\n\nThe Hebrew model is a way of life\/apprentice, and that\u2019s what you are doing. I remember, one time, sitting with them\u2014and I think you modeled this\u2014I was sitting with my youngest son, watching a TV show. There was something on the show that insinuated this couple was living together, having sex. I hit the pause button; and again, I\u2019m like, \u201cHere is a teachable moment.\u201d I said, \u201cHey Cody, so what do you think about them having sex before marriage?\u201d He goes, \u201cIt\u2019s wrong,\u201d\u2014he was 16. I go, \u201cYes; why is it wrong?\u201d \u201cBible says so.\u201d I go, \u201cWhere does it say that in the Bible?\u201d \u201cI have no idea.\u201d [Laughter] I remember running into my office, grabbing a Bible and teaching him how to use a concordance, and say, \u201cOkay; let\u2019s walk this through.\u201d It was like one of those teachable moments. That wasn\u2019t what she [Ann] wanted.\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Well, I don\u2019t think I knew what I wanted.\n\n<strong>Barbara:<\/strong> See; I didn\u2019t know what I wanted either. I had this imagination too\u2014this idea of what it should like. I was just as critical of Dennis. That\u2019s the problem in marriages\u2014is that we are looking to other people instead of looking to Christ, because He deals with us so individually. I <em>love<\/em> that about God\u2014is that He made us unique individuals. He\u2019s going to lead us, as a couple, differently than He leads you. There are a lot of principles that are the same that He wants to apply in both of our lives, but we need to be looking to Him and not to other people. That\u2019s where we make our big mistake\u2014we look at others.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> In John, Chapter 15, Jesus summarized the Christian life\u2014He says: \u201cAbide in Me,\u201d and also \u201cMy words shall abide in you.\u201d If you do that\u2014if you abide in Him and His words abide in you, there\u2019s fruit. What is life?\u2014but deciding what you\u2019re going to draw your source of life from. You going to draw it from Jesus and from the Bible?\u2014or are you going to draw your source of life from your bank account?\u2014from how much you accumulate?\u2014for how popular you are?\u2014for your status in the community?\n\nI think the way to lead your wife, guys, is to be a man who draws his life\/his decisions\u2014you\u2019re making decisions, asking God: \u201cGive me wisdom. Show me how to lead this family. I don\u2019t know what I\u2019m doing, God,\u201d because I didn\u2019t. I promise you\u2014many times, I didn\u2019t. And by the way, it doesn\u2019t change as you get older\u2014new seasons\/new challenges\u2014\u201cWhat exactly are you going to do after this transition is over, Dennis?\u201d\u2014\u201cI don\u2019t know! I\u2019m depending upon God; I\u2019m walking by faith. I don\u2019t know any other way of doing it that has a chance of producing fruit.\u201d\n\nSo, if a guy wants to know how to lead his wife, first of all, ask her, \u201cWhat does that mean, sweetheart?\u201d Don\u2019t be defensive or critical. Her expectations may be like Ann\u2019s and Barbara\u2019s\u2014<em>all wrong<\/em>. [Laughter] They just had high expectations. And that\u2019s part of why we married them, because they called us to step up\u2014they called us to be better men; right?\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Yes; yes.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> So ask your wife, \u201cWhat does it mean for me to lead you spiritually?\u201d And the reality is now, after being married for 46 years, we do have a quiet time together\u2014not every morning but it\u2019s pretty close\u2014and there\u2019s a lot of discussion, back and forth.\n\n<strong>Barbara:<\/strong> \u2014because there are no little people in the room. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> That\u2019s exactly right, and we finally can talk and have those conversations.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> I\u2019ve got to chime in here for just a second; because in late July of 1992, Mary Ann and I went to dinner at the Rainey\u2019s house for the first time. The only picture I have in my mind of where we\u2019re headed is the picture on the back of their book, where Barbara is seated in a chair with a lovely dress and her hair is made perfectly. Dennis is wearing a suit; and he\u2019s standing there, smiling with his hand on her shoulder\u2014that\u2019s what I think I\u2019m going to.\n\nWe get there, and it\u2019s a mess! I think we looked at each other [Bob and Mary Ann] and said: \u201cOkay; alright. We can maybe fit in here somewhere, because it\u2019s as messy as our lives are.\u201d That\u2019s where we have to recognize: \u201cWe\u2019re living real lives as real people, with real messes and real mistakes; and we\u2019ve got to give each other a lot of grace.\u201d I tell guys, all the time\u2014and women too\u2014\u201cHere\u2019s the job\u2014drink in and then pour out\u2014drink in; pour out.\u201d A lot of guys short-circuit, because they\u2019re not drinking in in the first place.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Right; you\u2019re speaking of the Bible, at this point.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> And you can\u2019t pour out if you\u2019re not drinking in; right? Yes; if you\u2019re not receiving grace from God through the study of His Word and fellowship with other believers\u2014if that\u2019s not happening to you\u2014you\u2019ve got nothing to pour out. But if that is happening to you\u2014and if it\u2019s happening in abundance\u2014it will <em>spill<\/em> out of you. It almost\u2014you can\u2019t help it, because it\u2019s poured in; now, it\u2019s overflowing in what you\u2019re doing.\n\nSo step one: \u201cIf a guy\u2019s thinking, \u2018Yes; I should lead my family,\u2019 well, you\u2019ve got to drink in before you can lead\/before you can pour anything out. You\u2019ve got to be drinking in.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> And you shouldn\u2019t wait until you feel like you\u2019re full\u2014\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Right!\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> Good point.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014before you lead.\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> That\u2019s right.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> Step out and attempt to lead your wife\/your family by faith. By the way, wives, when he does something right, and you catch him\u2014[Laughter]\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> \u2014cheer!\n\n<strong>Barbara:<\/strong> \u2014cheer; right.\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u2014cheer him on. I mean, give him an \u201c<em>Atta boy<\/em>!\u201d Put a big ole smooch on his lips and say, \u201cI am so proud of you!\u201d Really! I just want to say\u2014\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> Did you say smooch on his lips?\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> I said smooch.\n\n<strong>Barbara:<\/strong> He did. [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> That\u2019s what he said; okay!\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> What would you have called it?\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> I\u2019d just say\u2014\n\n<strong>Dennis:<\/strong> \u201cKiss him!\u201d\n\n<strong>Dave:<\/strong> \u2014\u201cGive [him] a lot\u2014a lot of lips.\u201d\n\n<strong>Ann:<\/strong> He\u2019d say, \u201cMake out with him.\u201d [Laughter]\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> If our listeners are interested in knowing more about you guys [Dave and Ann],\u00a0 and about your marriage, and about the lessons you\u2019ve learned from the mistakes you\u2019ve made in marriage, they can get a copy of your book, <em>Vertical Marriage<\/em>, which has just been released. We\u2019ve got copies of it in our <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> Resource Center. You can go, online, to order your copy; or call us at 1-800-FL-TODAY. The website: FamilyLifeToday.com. Again, the number is 1-800-358-6329\u2014that\u2019s 1-800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d Ask for your copy of the book, <em>Vertical Marriage<\/em>.\n\nWe\u2019ve also got a gift we\u2019d love to send to you. Dennis and Barbara and I sat down\u2014this was not that long ago\u2014and we just talked about all God has done during the first four decades of the ministry of FamilyLife. This ministry began back in 1976. Nobody imagined that God would use it the way that He has chosen to use it and bless it the way that God has chosen to bless it, but it\u2019s been pretty remarkable\u2014and to have the opportunity to share that with those of you who may not be familiar with the history of this ministry and with Dennis and Barbara\u2019s legacy.\n\nWe\u2019d love to send you two CDs, where we talk about those first 40 years and bring you up to date with how God\u2019s been at work through this ministry over that period of time. The CDs are our gift to you\u2014just call and request them\u2014or go online\u2014give us your name and address, and we\u2019ll mail them out to you\u2014no cost. Again, the website is FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY to get your copy of these CDs.\n\nNow, we\u2019re not done. We\u2019ve got the new President of FamilyLife, David Robbins, who has stopped in with some final thoughts about today\u2019s program. Hey, David.\n\n<strong>David:<\/strong> Hey Bob. You know, one of the things that I heard Barbara say really struck a cord with my ministry experience of being in ministry for two decades. When she said, \u201cYou want to know how to have a better marriage? Well, lead a Bible study.\u201d I know some of you may be thinking, \u201cHow does that work?\u201d\n\nIt\u2019s simply the principle that, when you act on truth, it moves deeper into your souls. When couples, together, seek to have an impact in other people\u2019s lives\u2014when they express out\u2014it means it\u2019s coming from a place where it\u2019s real themselves, and they\u2019re having to experience it themselves. We often find ourselves growing, because we\u2019re having to process and communicate and act on the very things that we\u2019re trying to pass on to someone else. I think one of the things to realize is that you don\u2019t need to have it all figured out. As they said today: \u201cDrink it in; pour it out. Abide, and the fruit will come.\u201d\n\n<strong>Bob:<\/strong> Yes; that\u2019s good. Well, let me encourage listeners to join us again tomorrow. Dave and Ann Wilson will be back. We\u2019re going to continue to talk about how we have all been impacted by the authenticity\/the transparency\u2014the lives of Dennis and Barbara Rainey. I hope you can tune in to be a part of that tomorrow.\n\nI want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.\n\n<em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.\n\n<strong>\u00a0<\/strong>\n\nWe are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs?\n\nCopyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2019 FamilyLife. 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