{"id":298467,"date":"2024-10-01T08:00:00","date_gmt":"2024-10-01T08:39:28","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/the-jesus-trilemma-and-the-tiktok-generation-sean-mcdowell\/"},"modified":"2025-05-09T10:55:30","modified_gmt":"2025-05-09T14:55:30","slug":"the-jesus-trilemma-and-the-tiktok-generation-sean-mcdowell","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/the-jesus-trilemma-and-the-tiktok-generation-sean-mcdowell\/","title":{"rendered":"The Jesus Trilemma and the TikTok Generation: Sean McDowell"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>The famous &#8220;liar, lunatic, or Lord&#8221; trilemma has been a famous staple in modern apologetics. Is it still relevant today? Listen as Sean McDowell discusses apologetics for a new generation with Dave and Ann Wilson.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Author, speaker and Biola apologetics professor, Sean McDowell, grew up steeped in apologetics. Hear how his father&#8217;s work impacted him and his own faith story.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":47000,"featured_media":280865,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"audio","audio_file":"https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/8cf60fdf-384d-42b4-b0ce-b1ed011e1144\/audio.mp3","podmotor_file_id":"","podmotor_episode_id":"","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:29:05","filesize":"26.67M","filesize_raw":"","date_recorded":"2024-10-01 08:00:00","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2822],"tags":[],"podcast_series":[3639],"cwp_profile":[9849],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-298467","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-growing-in-your-faith","podcast_series-more-than-a-carpenter-updated-sean-mcdowell","cwp_profile-dr-sean-mcdowell","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/06\/image-scaled.jpg?w=1024","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/298467\/the-jesus-trilemma-and-the-tiktok-generation-sean-mcdowell","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/298467\/the-jesus-trilemma-and-the-tiktok-generation-sean-mcdowell","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"vyUqTUgJp7\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/the-jesus-trilemma-and-the-tiktok-generation-sean-mcdowell\/\">The Jesus Trilemma and the TikTok Generation: Sean McDowell<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/the-jesus-trilemma-and-the-tiktok-generation-sean-mcdowell\/embed\/#?secret=vyUqTUgJp7\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;The Jesus Trilemma and the TikTok Generation: Sean McDowell&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"vyUqTUgJp7\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"uagb_featured_image_src":{"full":["https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/06\/image-scaled.jpg",1024,1024,true]},"uagb_author_info":{"display_name":"Margaret","author_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/author\/margaret-coylefamilylife-com\/"},"uagb_comment_info":0,"uagb_excerpt":"Author, speaker and Biola apologetics professor, Sean McDowell, grew up steeped in apologetics. Hear how his father's work impacted him and his own faith story.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"<ul>\n<li>Connect with Sean McDowell and catch more of his thoughts\u00a0on <a href=\"https:\/\/www.instagram.com\/seanmcdowell\/\">Insta<\/a>, <a href=\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/p\/Sean-McDowell-100030605996556\/\">Facebook<\/a>, and <a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/Sean_McDowell\">X<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Grab your copy of the updated \"<a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product\/more-than-a-carpenter-the-bestselling-classic-on-who-jesus-is\/\">More Than A Carpenter<\/a>\" at our shop.<\/li>\n<li>If you enjoyed this episode, check <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/guest\/sean-mcdowell\/\">other episodes<\/a> featuring Sean McDowell.<\/li>\n<li>Find resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/past-radio-resources\/\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Find more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<\/li>\n<li>Help others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Check out all the FamilyLife's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2024-10-01.pdf","transcript_content":"<p>FamilyLife Today\u00ae with Dave and Ann Wilson - Web Version Transcript<\/p>\n<p>This content has been generated by an artificial intelligence language model. While we strive for accuracy and quality, please note that the information provided will most likely not be entirely error-free or up-to-date. We recommend independently verifying the content with the originally-released audio. This transcript is provided for your personal use and general information purposes only. References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. We do not assume any responsibility or liability for the use or interpretation of this content.<\/p>\n<p>The Jesus Trilemma and the TikTok Generation<\/p>\n<p>Guest:Sean McDowell<\/p>\n<p>From the series:More Than a Carpenter (Updated) (Day 2 of 2)<\/p>\n<p>Air date:October 1, 2024<\/p>\n<p>Sean:I think people have always wanted answers; and they always will, because we're made in the image of God with minds. We want to make sense of the world that we live in. So I found with young people, in the right setting at the right time, they want to know; and they want to have discussions and are open to evidence if we present it the right way. But it doesn't mean they're walking around, going: \u201cDoes God exist?\u201d \u201cGive me proof of the resurrection.\u201d It's not quite that simple.<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLife Today.com.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:This is FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:So I'm holding in my hand a book that changed my life. And I know this\u2014I'm not guessing\u2014it has changed millions\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014millions.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u2014at least, 17 million-plus lives.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: We're talking about More Than a Carpenter.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u2014written by Josh McDowell. We've got Sean McDowell, his son, in here as well. And now, your name's on it as well, Sean. What does that mean? Let's talk about what's happening with this book today.<\/p>\n<p>Sean:Well, I guess what that means is my dad invited me to come along beside him and take this classic book and just update it for a new generation. I got to do a ton of research, with some research aids: like a TA from Talbot; three different scholars to go through it, as well, carefully. I hired a couple experts on individual chapters to go through it and just update it. And I honestly think\/I mean, obviously, when it sells<\/p>\n<p>17 million copies, a book is great\u2014whatever it is\u2014it's just that; it qualifies as great. I think this new update is better than it's ever been.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: What are the parts of the update that you like\u2014that will resonate\/that you feel like\u2014I mean, we're in a new age.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:You just said \u201cbetter.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yeah, that's a big deal.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:What does that mean?<\/p>\n<p>Sean:Well, I think one of the reasons this book has done so well is it's framed by my dad's story\u2014so his story of radically coming to faith\u2014trying to disprove Christianity.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And we talked about that yesterday; so listen to yesterday's episode.<\/p>\n<p>Sean:Good plug; good job.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Thank you.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: So as we go into these different chapters, he frames it with stories of: \u201cI was talking to this professor\u2026\u201d or \u201cI had this debate\u2026\u201d or \u201cI engage this student\u2026\u201d or \u201cI was traveling on a plane...\u201d; so it's not just like it's dumping facts. You feel like you're going on this journey with somebody, who's asking the kind of questions that\u2014if you're a believer, you're asking about your own faith; or if you're a non-believer, you're asking about the Christian faith\u2014so I kind of invite you to go along on this journey with him.<\/p>\n<p>I mean, it's hard to say \u201cbetter\u201d when a book, More Than a Carpenter's, done so well. But we updated, for example, some of the evidence on manuscripts that have been discovered since it was first written; there's some updates on that. It's a little bit shorter than it was before, so it's just streamlined. So in that sense, I think it's even better than it's been.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:As you think about it, what are your hopes? Do you hope for anything different than the original?<\/p>\n<p>Sean:From what I've heard, this book had sold maybe around a million copies. There was a leader who said to [my dad], he said, \u201cJosh, I think this book has only seen the beginning; and I think it could have greater influence. So why not reach more people now? Why be satisfied and say, \u2018Let's just keep this thing going, tinker along, and maybe sell five percent of what it did\u2019?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I think his story is more relevant, if not more relevant, today\u2014fatherlessness, sexual abuse he went through; a sister who committed suicide\u2014these are all the issues in the news, and he's lived through it. It just captures people at the beginning. The first line starts off with, just referring to Aquinas, he talks about there's this search for happiness in the heart of human beings. He's like, \u201cThat was me. I wanted to be happy.\u201d Well, you can't read that line without going, \u201cYes, I resonate with that.\u201d It's just a brilliant start.<\/p>\n<p>My hope is that we're\u2014similar to the 1 million to 17 million\u201417 million; why not 50 million? And it's not just about numbers to me; it's just saying, \u201cThis is a, for lack of a better term, it's a resource and a formula that has worked across generations\u2014I mean, in the Middle East, in China, in Latin America, in Eastern Europe\u2014there's something deeply human and, dare I say, kind of timeless about this book. And so my hope is that God just uses it even bigger than He ever has in the past.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Well, I remember when I read it, I was probably in my 20s. When you read it\u2014it's your dad's story\u2014but then, it's the apologetics of it, gives us like: \u201cThis is the gospel; this is proof of the resurrection: the manuscripts, the Scriptures.\u201d And so when you read it, you have somebody in mind.<\/p>\n<p>That's what I did\u2014because I was already a believer; and that somebody, for me, was my dad\u2014because when I gave my life to Jesus, his words to me were, \u201cHey, I know your sister has become a Christian. But you're like me; you're strong. You don't need that kind of crutch; but she's weak, so she needs it.\u201d And so when I read this\u2014and your dad, the strength that God gave him what he did\u2014but also the strength in the Scriptures: the strength in what we can put our anchor on with Jesus, and why He's reliable, and so much of that. And so the first thing I did was I give this book to my dad. I'm not sure he read it. He might've read parts of it, but maybe how many years later?<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Probably 20.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Twenty years later\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Unbelievable.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014yeah, he did give his life to Jesus. He realized we all need a crutch. It's not a crutch\u2014it's more than a crutch\u2014it's a lifeline to the gospel.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Yeah. One day he came home, and Ann and I were not married that long. He was my high school coach as well\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Oh, interesting<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014when I was a teenager. Ann's older brother was my center\u2014I was quarterback\u2014he was center. So anyway, I knew the family really well. I'll never forget\u2014and we were trying to reach him\u2014and even when we were dating, right after we got engaged; they didn't know this\u2014we got on our knees in her living room at her parents' house. We knew we were going to get married, and we said, \u201cGod, we're praying that You'd use us in our marriage to reach every person in their family.\u201d And He did, eventually.<\/p>\n<p>Dick was her dad\u2014was the last one\u2014but he came home from work one day, worked in a factory. I'll never forget\u2014he walked in the kitchen\u2014he goes, \u201cYeah, I got in this argument with this guy at work, and he's all messed up,\u201d\u2014and blah, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, \u201cYeah, okay. What happened?\u201d He goes, \u201cI looked at him. You know what I said?\u201d I go, \u201cNo; what?\u201d He goes, \u201cI said, \u2018You need what David and Ann got!\u2019\u201d And I go, \u201cWhat?\u201d \u201cI told him he needs what you got.\u201d And I go, \u201cDick, what do we have?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Sean:That's a great question.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:He goes, \u201cI guess it\u2019s Jesus is what you have.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Oh my goodness.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And so it was like: \u201cHe's watching; he's seeing.\u201d I'm guessing he read parts of More Than a Carpenter because dots started connecting together. One, obviously, seeing somebody's life lived out authentically in front of you is so key. But he also needed evidence\u2014he had a bad background with religion and church\u2014and so this impacted him. So I mean, it's just one story; there's millions of stories like that.<\/p>\n<p>But talk about this\u2014so you're, now, editing and revising\u2014\u201cWhat's the same?\u201d \u201cWhat's different?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Sean:Kind of like I mentioned last time, when you have a book that's so successful, you don't want to change it much. So the chapter titles are the same; the organization and structure is the same. I really just went through and took out some old quotes that needed to be updated, added some new arguments that did not exist when he wrote it in \u201877 or when he updated it in 2000.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Can you give us an example of one of those?<\/p>\n<p>Sean:So the number of manuscripts that we've discovered for the New Testament has increased over the past 30\/40 years since he first wrote this book. So that just gives us more confidence that we hold in the hands, the New Testament, as it was originally written down. There's been some archeological discoveries that we just highlight, because it's a short book; but we will talk about archeologists like Titus Kennedy and list out some of the archeological discoveries that have been made over the past few years that just help confirm that the biblical writers got it correct. So there's those kind of updates that you add in a book like this.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:But you surely didn't take away \u201cLord, Liar, Lunatic.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Sean:No, we didn't; we didn't take that away. We actually softened some of the language. We still call it \u201cLord Liar, Lunatic\u201d because it's great alliteration. But some of the language we looked at: were like, Yeah, do we want to call people \u2018lunatics\u2019?\u201d That's not as politically correct as the kind of terms that people use today. So I'm like, \u201cOkay, we can soften that without losing the content of it. That's just a wise way to update it.\u201d So there are certain little tweaks like that just to make sure it spoke to people today, especially younger generations might get offended at certain language. It's like, \u201cFine; but we're still going to call it \u2018Lord, Liar, Lunatic\u2019 because it rolls off the tongue, so to speak.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave:I mean, can you articulate that argument?<\/p>\n<p>Sean:Sure.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Yeah; I mean, I\u2019m thinking\u2014one of the reasons I ask\u2014I'm thinking, \u201cThere's parents listening, thinking, \u2018Is this a tool I could use with my kids?\u2019 And this might be one of the conversations they could have.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Sean:So this is not unique to him [Josh McDowell]. There's quotes in the book from C.S. Lewis, who talked about this\u2014and it goes back long before C.S. Lewis\u2014that: \u201cIf Jesus claimed to be God,\u201d\u2014which we have to establish that the Scriptures are reliable: and He didn't claim to be a God; He claimed to be the God\u2014which we could talk about: \u201cthen we really have two\/three main options:<\/p>\n<p>Number one\u2014He's a liar\u2014so Jesus claims to be God, but He's lying. Is that a reasonable alternative? Well, number one, if he's lying, that got Him crucified. So why would you tell a story, and affirm it all the way up to the trial in Mark 14, to get yourself, not just killed, but brutally killed in the most shameful, painful way imaginable? That makes no sense. Plus, Jesus gave us, arguably, some of the greatest moral teachings just on loving your neighbor and your enemies\u2014so that comes from somebody, who's a liar\u2014that doesn't make sense. So a liar would be: He claimed to be God, but He knew he wasn't.<\/p>\n<p>The other one is He claimed to be God; but He wasn't, which would mean: \u201cWhat kind of person actually says they are the eternal creator of the universe?\u201d and \u201c\u2019Before Abraham was born, I am\u2019?\u201d He's not just claimed to be a God; He's claiming to be the God of the Old Testament, who's the self-existent, eternal, all powerful creator of the universe. Well, that doesn't sound like somebody mentally stable to view themselves that way. And then we walk through some\u2014we have a couple\u2014here's a couple great quotes in here from psychologists that I reach out to. One of the leading psychiatrists in the world, [who] deals with mental health; and he's at Duke University\u2014I reached out to him\u2014and he just said, \u201cThere's no way, with the teachings of Jesus and everything we know about His life, that He's just\u201d\u2014I don't think he used the term \u201cmentally insane\u201d\u2014but you get the point that\u2014\u201cHe's psychiatrically imbalanced.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>And so: He's not a liar; that's not reasonable. He's not a lunatic: to use the L from the alliteration. Well, the other [option] is: He's Lord: He claimed to be God, and He actually is.<\/p>\n<p>Now, you could logically think of other possibilities: \u201cMaybe the whole thing is a legend.\u201d So you got to be careful to say, \u201cIt's not this airtight argument\u201d; but it's a way of simplifying for people: \u201cIf Jesus claimed to be God, we've got to make sense of: \u2018Is it true, or is it not true?\u2019 And you only have so many options; and the big options are: \u2018Either He's lying,\u2019 \u2018Either he's a lunatic,\u2019 or \u2018He's actually the God that He claimed to be.\u2019\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave:You travel the country, as a Christian apologist, and talk and debate on these issues, nonstop. How common is that argument still used?\u2014 mean, whether you use those words or not\u2014but that thinking.<\/p>\n<p>Sean:I don't often lay out the three the way that I just did. Sometimes, if I'm giving a presentation on Jesus to students, I'll try to get them to grasp it. So I think, on a popular level, you hear it a lot; because some people want to say things like, \u201cWell, Jesus was just a good prophet.\u201d \u201cWell, wait a minute; He claimed to be God.\u201d So the pieces of that argument come up all the time when it comes to Jesus, whether or not people are laying it out in that systematic fashion. But given that two of the top apologetic books are\u2014Mere Christianity: you find it in there; More Than a Carpenter; you find it in there\u2014an awful lot of people are talking about it and using it in some fashion.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: You're working with college students all the time. You have teenagers, young adults as your own children; you're traveling constantly: \u201cIs this still an issue, apologetics? Is that still one of the primary issues that people are stumbling upon? Like do they want to know answers, or is it something different today?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Sean:I think people have always wanted answers; and they always will, because we're made in the image of God with minds. We want to make sense of the world that we live in. So that's never going to go anywhere.<\/p>\n<p>Now, the questions people ask, how they ask them, the way they communicate shifts because of social media, and artificial intelligence, etc. But the way I frame it is this: \u201cThere's timeless questions and there's timely questions. So timely questions today might be people are debating things like climate change, or critical race theory, or LGBTQ; these are larger cultural issues we've dealt with in this cultural moment.<\/p>\n<p>But then there's timeless issues like: \u2018Does God exist?\u2019 \u2018Is morality objective or is this subjective?\u2019 \u2018Is there a Creator to the universe?\u2019 \u2018Is the Bible true?\u2019 \u2018Is Jesus God?\u2019\u201d<\/p>\n<p>This is not a book dealing with the timely issues; it's a timeless book. And frankly, if there is a God\u2014and He's revealed Himself in the Scriptures, and Jesus is that God\u2014then it gets us, halfway, to answering a lot of the timely questions; because now, God has spoken. We have a Word and Scriptures to use as authoritative to make sense of those timely questions.<\/p>\n<p>I found, with young people, in the right setting at the right time, they want to know, and want to have discussions, and are open to evidence if we present it the right way. But it doesn't mean they're walking around, going: \u201cDoes God exist?\u201d \u201cGive me proof of the resurrection.\u201d It's not quite that simple.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Yeah; I remember doing a series at our church when 9\/11 happened. That was on a Tuesday morning. We got together, either Tuesday or Wednesday, and said, \u201cOkay, I think what we're preaching on Sunday needs to be different; the world has just changed.\u201d And so I don't know if it was that Sunday or the next Sunday; but I think it was that Sunday that I decided to preach on, because everybody was saying, \u201cWhat is going on with Muslims and Islam the way they believe?\u201d I said, \u201cI'm going to teach you. We're going to do Islam 101.\u201d So I did a sermon on the five tenets of Islam\u2014blah, blah, blah\u2014and did it three or four times. I remember the fourth sermon, and people came up and asked questions after\u2014and I'm not a scholar like you; I'm not apologist\u2014but I did the best job I could.<\/p>\n<p>And I remember they brought up a Muslim woman; they had called her, and said, \u201cOur pastor's teaching on this. You need to come and see if he's representing what you believe true.\u201d And she came up to me, with her friend, and said, \u201cThank you very much. I have one disagreement with what you said.\u201d And I go, \u201cWhat's that?\u201d She goes, \u201cWe believe in Jesus just like you do.\u201d And I'm telling you: a crowd gathered to hear this little conversation. And it's really interesting, as I look back at her, and I really gently said, \u201cTell me what you believe.\u201d It ended up being a conversation about \u201cLord, Liar, Lunatic.\u201d It really did.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: That's crazy.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I said, \u201cDo you believe, like I do, that Jesus is the God?\u201d She said, \u201cNo.\u201d I said, \u201cWell, then, we do have a different belief system.\u201d She says, \u201cWhy do you believe that?\u201d And it's interesting\u2014of all the things I could think of, that's what popped into my head\u2014\"Well, I think, when you think about what He said, and who He was, you have three options. Here they are\u2026\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Sean: That's great.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And I used that. That came to me, in probably the \u201880s, when I first got More Than a Carpenter. So I'm thinking, \u201cMan, this truth is still happening.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>So talk about this: you've updated a little bit. You said you added something on science to this. Explain that.<\/p>\n<p>Sean:So in 2009, when we did the last update, these new atheists were talked about everywhere\u2014it was kind of a cultural phenomenon\u2014debates on: \u201cDoes God exist?\u201d \u201cIs religion bad?\u201d So I added a chapter; that was the one chapter I uniquely wrote in the 2009 version, responding to the new atheists. And I think that\u2019s one reason people loved about that book. But afterwards, I realized, \u201cOh, I wrote\u201d\u2014this happened in 2006; this book in 2008\u2014\"I just dated it to that; and now, [what] people are talking about, we have moved far beyond the new atheist. The cultural conversation has completely changed\u201d; so it dated the book. I just trimmed that down.<\/p>\n<p>We make a key distinction between the scientific and the legal historical method. Because, sometimes, people say, \u201cAlright, Jesus rose from the grave. Can you prove that scientifically?\u201d And I'd say, \u201cWell, no; you can't prove that scientifically. But you can't prove anything, historically, scientifically. You can't prove a lot of things in psychology scientifically\u2014can't prove that I love my wife, scientifically, depending on how you define science\u2014but I know that's true. You can't prove morality, scientifically. And so we just try to make a distinction, and say, \u201cJust because you can't prove something, scientifically, you can still know that it's true. How do we know things from the past?\u201d\u2014this is what's called the legal historical method\u2014\"and here's how we assess things from the past\u2026\u201d<\/p>\n<p>It's a quick chapter; because most of that book gets into the positive evidence Jesus has risen from the grave\u2014fulfilled prophecy: \u201cThe Bible's reliable,\u201d\u2014but that's still an objection in people's minds: that if you can't know it scientifically, you can't know it; and it's all opinion. You want to make sure people realize: \u201cNo, there's other ways we know things, I think, with greater confidence than we actually know certain scientific things. We just trim the chapter down and I think, in fact, made it better because of that.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I'm thinking of the legacy with your dad, with you. Do your kids know this book pretty well, and could a family read it? We have these families that will contact us, and say, \u201cHey, we just read your Vertical Marriage book as a family\u201d; I'm like, \u201cWhat?! You made your kids do this?\u201d And she's like, \u201cYeah; and then, we did a book report.\u201d But there are some families that will read books, as a family, if their kids are teenagers; and then, just dialogue. Is that something that could happen? I'm sure you've had these conversations with your kids all through life.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:I would say, \u201cAbsolutely!\u201d\u2014that's my opinion; I'm not the author\u2014what do you think?<\/p>\n<p>Sean:Well, it's funny. My dad's written a few family devotionals, but we never used family devotionals. We don't sit down, and go, \u201cLet's go through dad's book\u201d; it's just for so many reasons. But that devotional is for family members who need to carve out time and have questions to ask. He wrote this book and family devotionals, because he's always asking and thinking on that level.<\/p>\n<p>So we sit down at a meal, and he's asking us questions about what's going on in the world; and he\u2019s sharing his recent research as we talk about what's happening in football, or basketball, or a recent movie. So we are having these kinds of conversations, as a family, pretty regularly and consistently.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: You guys did that, growing up, with your dad.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Oh, my goodness.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Give us an example of: \u201cHere's what's going on in the world at that time.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Sean:Well, if you really want to know, I'll give you insight into the McDowell family. In the \u201880s, when I was growing up, he was doing what was called the \u201cWhy wait?\u201d campaign.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Oh, yeah.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: It was the first global campaign that responded to the sexual revolution. I kid you not\u2014we'd be at the dinner table\u2014and he'd be like, \u201cKids, new study on AIDS. Just want to share it with you; and then, tell me what you think.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u201cSo give me some more fries.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Sean: I mean, yeah! I gave a talk yesterday on pornography; and this kid came up to me, and goes, \u201cThat's the first non-cringey talk I've ever heard.\u201d And it doesn't bother me to talk about those topics, because we just did that as a family. So he would do that.<\/p>\n<p>He also would\u2014something going on in the news\u2014and I [can\u2019t] think of a specific\u2014but he'd just be like, \u201cHey, kids, I heard this happened\u2026 Tell me what you think about it.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I love that he posed the question first.<\/p>\n<p>Sean:He would do questions.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:He didn't say, \u201cHere's my view on it\u2026\u201d; he asked you guys.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014and \u201cHere\u2019s how you should think.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Sean:Now, he did come around to his view, eventually.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I\u2019m sure he did, but he didn\u2019t start\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Sean:He has opinions on these things, but he wanted to hear us out. He'd ask questions\u2014and he'd challenge\u2014he goes, \u201cHere's how I see it; what do you think?\u201d A specific example is when the movie\u2014I think it was late \u201890s; no, it must have been earlier \u201890s; because I think I was in high school\u2014the movie, Schindler's List, came out. [He] took my sister; me; my wife, now, who was my girlfriend at the time. We went to see it; and then, we went to Sizzler afterwards and just talked about it. I remember he just looked at us, and he said, \u201cDo you think the Holocaust is wrong?\u201d I'm like, \u201cOf course.\u201d He goes, \u201cWhy?\u201d I was like, \u201cBecause they killed people.\u201d He's like, \u201cWhy is it wrong to kill people?\u201d \u201cThe Bible says so.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>He goes, \u201cWhy does the Bible say this?\u201d And I'm like, \u201cI don't know the answer to that.\u201d And we just walked through that: \u201cIt's wrong because God is the source of morality. God is life; He's made us in His image and expresses that through the Scriptures. If you say killing is wrong, just because it says that in the Bible; that's actually legalism. It's wrong because of God's character, and who He is, as expressed through the Bible.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>So these are the kind of conversations I have with my kids all the time. We go to see movies; and we just kind of talk about: \u201cWhat'd you see? What'd you think?\u201d\u2014and try to teach them to think critically, even if I haven't sat them down to read the book. They'd be like, \u201cThat would be a little over the top.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And it's better to do it the way you guys have. It doesn't feel like, \u201cWhat are we doing?\u201d\u2014what our kids would've said\u2014\u201cWhat are we going to do?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Sean:One time we were done at dinner. My son looks at me, and he gives me a thumbs up. He goes, \u201cGood speech, Dad.\u201d And I just laughed; \u201cThat's fine.\u201d But my book, Chasing Love,\u2014which we talked about sometime in the past\u2014when I was working the manuscript, my daughter was 12 at the time. I said, Hey, if you'll just read this, and tell me what you think, and go to coffee with your dad for a couple hours, I'll buy you a pair of shoes.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I remember you told us this.<\/p>\n<p>Sean:And she's like, \u201cI could get\/can I get two for the price of one?\u201d I'm like, \u201cYou can get three for the price of one.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>So kids are different. But this is a great book\u2014if you have a kid, who's interested, it\u2019ll take them two or three hours to read\u2014\u201cJust read it, and I'll give you some kind of reward. I just want to know what you think about it.\u201d My son wouldn't do that, but my daughter would.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: But even to pose the question at dinner: \u201cDid Jesus rise from the dead?\u201d How do we know to ask those questions? What are some of the questions you have posed at your dinner table? Because there are a lot of different topics coming up today with your teenagers.<\/p>\n<p>Sean:Oh, my goodness. I am always looking for questions to ask my kids. I took my son to breakfast last year\u2014maybe, it was the year before when he was about ten\u2014we were talking about some drawing and some art. I steered it towards: \u201cDo you think the world is more like something that happens by accident or more the result of something an artist had done?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Oh, so my son was wearing a shirt, and it had some kind of art design on it; and he's ten. I'm like, \u201cHey, so your shirt; that clearly came from an artist, right? And he goes, \u201cYes.\u201d I said, I'm curious: when you look at the world, do you think it's more like your shirt that requires an artist? Or do you think it just could happen, like the bottom of a mountain, when rocks fall down accidentally? Which do you think the world's more like?\u201d He's ten; he goes, \u201cOh, definitely artist.\u201d I said, \u201cWhy?\u201d We probably talked five minutes; and then, he moved on to something else.<\/p>\n<p>You don't have to have that conversation. But I'm always looking for questions to ask my kids and have conversations; because data shows: \u201cIf you want to pass on your faith, it's three things:<\/p>\n<p>Number one: live a life worth modeling.<\/p>\n<p>Number two: build relationships with your kids.<\/p>\n<p>Number three: have a regular conversation with them about issues that matter.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Say that again. I'm asking, Sean, you to do this; because I want parents to literally, maybe pause, \u201cGo get a pen\u2014pull out your phone, whatever it is\u2014take a note and write this down.\u201d Say it again.<\/p>\n<p>Sean:Number one\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave:And explain a little bit; I'd love to hear a little elaboration on those three.<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u2014live a\/model a life your kids find attractive. If they don't think you're authentic, and you're a fraud, and there's nothing attractive about your life, it doesn't matter what you say. You don't have to be perfect, but model the Christian life; live it out.<\/p>\n<p>Second: build meaningful, intimate, close relationships with your kids: spend time with them; listen to them; value them.<\/p>\n<p>And then, third: just meaningful spiritual conversations through the rhythm of life, which helps kids learn how to think about the world. There's no perfect formula, because kids have this stubborn thing called free will. But I think the research consistently shows doing those three things gives you the best statistical chance of having kids who embrace the beliefs that you have.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Let me just stop for a second, and say, \u201cMan, if this is hitting home with you\u2014if you're a parent, and you're resonating with this\u2014we know\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014I have always felt like, \u201cSomebody, please help me.\u201d And so we've pulled together some of our most helpful parenting pieces into one spot for you.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:And I'd say you're going to want to get them right now, and we've got a way for you to do that. Here's how you do it: go to FamilyLife.com\/ParentingHelp\u2014FamilyLife.com\/ParentingHelp\u2014and you'll find some of the best stuff FamilyLife has ever done, over decades, to help you, and to help us all, on parenting. So go there now.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Sean, thanks for all you're doing. We really appreciate you a ton.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:And you're welcome back here anytime.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Yes, you guys are too sweet.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Anytime.<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: I remember reading More Than a Carpenter when I was in my second year of being a Christian, and it genuinely helped me to understand the truths that Christianity claims are real. I read it on the bus from my apartment over to campus, and it really assuaged a lot of my initial doubts as a new believer. I'm so grateful that God used it to set me on a trajectory of walking with him for the last 25 years or so. And you know what? This new version, with Sean's input, experience, and insight makes the More Than a Carpenter book all the more valuable and rich.<\/p>\n<p>I'm Shelby Abbott; and you've been listening to David Ann Wilson, with Sean McDowel, l on FamilyLife Today. You could get your copy of the all-new More Than a Carpenter by going online, right now, to FamilyLife Today.com; or you can look for the link in the show notes; or feel free to give us a call at 800-358-6329 to request your copy. Again, that number is 800-F, as in family, L as in life; and then, the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Do you follow us on social media? Well, you could head over to Instagram and look for the handle, FamilyLifeInsta; or find us on Facebook, just search for FamilyLife. That way, you'll get more regular encouragement from the ministry.<\/p>\n<p>Now, tomorrow, Ron Deal is here as he talks with Dave and Ann Wilson and a conversation that he had with Scott Kedersha about the challenges of adapting to a new stepdad. That's coming up tomorrow; we hope you'll join us. On behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I'm Shelby Abbott. We'll see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>FamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry.<\/p>\n<p>Helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.<\/p>\n<p>If you\u2019ve benefited from the FamilyLife Today transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs of producing them and making them available online?<\/p>\n<p>Copyright \u00a9 2024 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.<\/p>\n<p>www.FamilyLife.com<\/p>\n","theme_header_position":"Sticky","post_header_is_sticky":"default","is_header_overlay":"0"},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/298467","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/47000"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=298467"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/280865"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=298467"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=298467"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=298467"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=298467"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=298467"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=298467"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}