{"id":298341,"date":"2024-09-30T08:00:00","date_gmt":"2024-09-30T08:24:25","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/%series%\/more-than-a-carpenter-updated-sean-mcdowell\/"},"modified":"2025-06-10T13:54:12","modified_gmt":"2025-06-10T17:54:12","slug":"more-than-a-carpenter-updated-sean-mcdowell","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/more-than-a-carpenter-updated-sean-mcdowell\/","title":{"rendered":"More Than A Carpenter (updated): Sean McDowell"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>Author, speaker and Biola apologetics professor, Sean McDowell, grew up steeped in apologetics. He joins Dave and Ann Wilson to share how his father&#8217;s work impacted him, along with his own faith journey from doubt to confidence.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Author, speaker and Biola apologetics professor, Sean McDowell, grew up steeped in apologetics. He joins Dave and Ann Wilson to share how his father&#8217;s work impacted him, along with his own faith journey from doubt to confidence.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":47000,"featured_media":280865,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"audio","audio_file":"https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/a29a087a-b9d4-4390-b274-b1ed011e113f\/audio.mp3","podmotor_file_id":"","podmotor_episode_id":"","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:30:16","filesize":"27.75M","filesize_raw":"","date_recorded":"2024-09-30 08:00:00","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2822],"tags":[],"podcast_series":[3639],"cwp_profile":[9849],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-298341","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-growing-in-your-faith","podcast_series-more-than-a-carpenter-updated-sean-mcdowell","cwp_profile-dr-sean-mcdowell","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/06\/image-scaled.jpg?w=1024","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/298341\/more-than-a-carpenter-updated-sean-mcdowell","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/298341\/more-than-a-carpenter-updated-sean-mcdowell","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"QkU1WaoVj6\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/more-than-a-carpenter-updated-sean-mcdowell\/\">More Than A Carpenter (updated): Sean McDowell<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/more-than-a-carpenter-updated-sean-mcdowell\/embed\/#?secret=QkU1WaoVj6\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;More Than A Carpenter (updated): Sean McDowell&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"QkU1WaoVj6\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"uagb_featured_image_src":{"full":["https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/06\/image-scaled.jpg",1024,1024,true]},"uagb_author_info":{"display_name":"Margaret","author_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/author\/margaret-coylefamilylife-com\/"},"uagb_comment_info":0,"uagb_excerpt":"Author, speaker and Biola apologetics professor, Sean McDowell, grew up steeped in apologetics. He joins Dave and Ann Wilson to share how his father's work impacted him, along with his own faith journey from doubt to confidence.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"<ul>\n<li>Connect with Sean McDowell and catch more of his thoughts\u00a0on <a href=\"https:\/\/www.instagram.com\/seanmcdowell\/\">Insta<\/a>, <a href=\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/p\/Sean-McDowell-100030605996556\/\">Facebook<\/a>, and <a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/Sean_McDowell\">X<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Grab your copy of the updated \"<a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product\/more-than-a-carpenter-the-bestselling-classic-on-who-jesus-is\/\">More Than A Carpenter<\/a>\" at our shop.<\/li>\n<li>If you enjoyed this episode, check <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/guest\/sean-mcdowell\/\">other episodes<\/a> featuring Sean McDowell.<\/li>\n<li>Find resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/past-radio-resources\/\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Find more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<\/li>\n<li>Help others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Check out all the FamilyLife's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2024-09-30.pdf","transcript_content":"<p>FamilyLife Today\u00ae with Dave and Ann Wilson - Web Version Transcript<\/p>\n<p>This content has been generated by an artificial intelligence language model. While we strive for accuracy and quality, please note that the information provided will most likely not be entirely error-free or up-to-date. We recommend independently verifying the content with the originally-released audio. This transcript is provided for your personal use and general information purposes only. References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. We do not assume any responsibility or liability for the use or interpretation of this content.<\/p>\n<p>More Than a Carpenter (Updated)<\/p>\n<p>Guest:Sean McDowell<\/p>\n<p>From the series:More Than a Carpenter (Updated) (Day 1 of 2)<\/p>\n<p>Air date:September 30, 2024<\/p>\n<p>Sean:For years he wanted to be a speaker. He tells the story of Billy Graham coming to, I think it was Arrowhead, if I remember correctly. Someone drags in mud\u2014oh, I just get emotional thinking about it\u2014and they're like, \u201cJosh, you got to clean that up!\u201d And he's like, \u201cI'm not going to do this.\u201d And then finally he had a thought of: \u201cIf I'm not willing to do this, you don't deserve any platform to reach people for the kingdom.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLife Today.com.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: This is FamilyLife Today. So we've got Sean McDowell sitting across us in the studio. What are you thinking?<\/p>\n<p>Ann:I love it when he's here. I feel like we have great conversation. There's something, too, about legacy. When I see Sean, I think of Josh, his dad. And here's what I'm thinking about you\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014me?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes, you. Because I think Josh's work, More Than a Carpenter\u2014the book that he wrote\u2014Evidence that Demands a Verdict were pivotal in your walk and journey with God.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: No question about that. We'll talk about that in a minute.<\/p>\n<p>But Sean, welcome. I wonder what you think when you come to the Cru headquarters.<\/p>\n<p>Sean:I mean, I've probably been at headquarters a few times; but I've been coming to Cru events\u2014and where it used to be in Fort Collins, this every two-year training\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014Moby Gym.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: I mean, I was born and raised through Cru; so I feel at home here in that sense.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:FamilyLife, obviously, is on the grounds of Cru as well. And you probably don't know this, or maybe we've mentioned this when we've had you on before; but I came to Christ my junior year in college; so it was late: non-believing home, divorced family. Long story short: Ann and I started dating; get married two years later. I'm still pretty new as a believer. We come on staff with Athletes in Action, a branch of Cru. They send us to the University of Nebraska to be the chaplain for the sports teams there.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: So we're both working with all the collegiate athletes at the University of Nebraska.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:And I don't think it was three months, where I wake up one day and said\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: He drops the biggest bomb\/the biggest bomb. I walk in\u2014I had just met with some woman on an appointment, some athlete\u2014and he's sitting in the living room. He has his Bible on his lap; he goes, \u201cI don't even know if any of this is true.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Sean:Oh, my goodness!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I said, \u201cWhat?\u201d He goes, \u201c\u2026all of it: Bible, Jesus,\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u2014\u201cresurrection.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u201cHow do we know it's true?!\u201d And I was like, \u201cWe've devoted our lives to telling people about this, and now you're doubting it?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Well, here\u2019s the good part of that story. She looked at me pretty shocked, and she said this\u2014do you remember?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: She said, \u201cWell, I know you need to find out. Go find out. Find out if it's true.\u201d She had no doubts about it; but she didn't say, \u201cYou're crazy.\u201d She just said, \u201cDo the homework.\u201d Well, guess what? I picked up Evidence that Demands a Verdict. I picked up the book we're going to talk about today\u2014that you've revised and redone, and you're now part of this with your dad\u2014More Than a Carpenter. Those were two critical resources that helped me. Literally, I think I read every outline point in Evidence\u2026<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Well, he's [Josh McDowell] taught a class at the Institute of Biblical Studies, IBS, at Cru that we took that class. Dave was so excited\u2014Evidence That Demands a Verdict\u2014it is a textbook, man. I was depressed: \u201cAre you kidding me? We're going to have to go.\u201d But what it did is it gave us confidence\u2014confidence of how to share the gospel\u2014of we're like building our lives and foundation on these principles and truths from Scripture.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:I guess you've heard stories like that many times.<\/p>\n<p>Sean:Oh, so I have. Almost everywhere I go\u2014I speak at a church or a conference; somebody will talk about either More Than a Carpenter or Evidence\u2026\u2014one of two things: either \u201cHelped solidify my faith during a period of doubt,\u201d like you said; or \u201cIt was a tool that God used to draw me to the kingdom in the first place.\u201d But I'll tell you, Dave, I never get tired of hearing it; I don't. I'm so proud of my dad. I'm amazed and humbled how much God has used him, and He's used this book and others. I don't think you shared that\u2014certainly not in the depth you have [now]\u2014that's just amazing. It shows that our heritage goes back way before the first radio show a few years ago, when we met. But there's a real history there; that's cool.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Now, did you have any of the same kind of struggle?<\/p>\n<p>Sean:I went through a period of doubt, and this was probably mid-\u201890s when I was a freshman or sophomore in college. It was the first time we had this new invention called the internet, and people are going to email addresses. It was pre-Google, but I was just searching around. I don't remember what I was searching for, but came across the Skeptical Atheist web. And a lot of it was built on, at that time\u2014because Evidence\u2026 was one of the only apologetic resources\u2014going back then, chapter by chapter, doctors, historians, lawyers, responding to it.<\/p>\n<p>And this was just the first time I had really come across smart, intelligent, educated people, who had good reasons why they weren't Christians. And it's like time froze; and it was really the first time I thought, \u201cI could be wrong about this. I know my parents mean well\u2026\u201d; but it was also the existential sense of like, \u201cWait a minute; what does this mean for my life, and the afterlife, and what I want to do?\u201d\u2014I mean all those things. It was an emotional kind of experience.<\/p>\n<p>I had a conversation with my dad\u2014and same thing\u2014kind of similar to your response: he didn't freak out. He's like, \u201cI love you, and you got to find out what's true\u201d; and just stayed calm. And that's exactly what I needed to hear. So some of the backbone of the work I've done with my dad comes from my own sense of going, \u201cI need to know for myself if I can bank my life on this.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave:How much has your dad, and his life and his work, influenced what you're doing? I mean, you're a Christian apologist: you teach; you write; you speak basically in this same sort of area your dad worked in. Is that a big influence on your life, obviously?<\/p>\n<p>Sean:I don't even know how to calculate that, to be honest. Now, there's no doubt that he has shaped my thinking and my life more than anybody\u2014no question about that\u2014that's like Tier One. But I tell my wife sometimes; I say, \u201cI get some amazing opportunities; but maybe, I've developed to be a good speaker and writer and do these other things.\u201d So, oftentimes, I hear stories like that; and it just reminds me: \u201cYou know what? This is a trail that's already been blazed, and I've been given opportunities other people don't have.\u201d So in some alternate universe where I do what I do, but I'm not a McDowell: \u201cDoes my platform and opportunities look remotely like this?\u201d\u2014probably not.<\/p>\n<p>And so I don't even know how to calculate that, which is fine with me; because I gave up, long time ago, trying to compete with my dad's influence in any sense. First off, it's a losing game; but second off, none of that stuff matters. All that matters is: \u201cAre you faithful to the opportunity that God has called you to?\u201d And there's just a contentment and peace that comes from seeing it that way.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: What's it been like\u2014and what's your relationship like with your dad now, even to write with him?\u2014because you guys have done several books together.<\/p>\n<p>Sean:When I went through the questioning period, I didn't go to my dad for answers. I needed to go to other people\u2014like Mr. Miyagi, and your Yoda, and your Gandalf\u2014people like William Lane Craig, and J.P. Moreland, and others. You got to hear the same thing from somebody else.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And he wasn't offended by that.<\/p>\n<p>Sean:Oh, my goodness; he was thrilled by that. So he would want me to do it. We had some conversations; but it wasn't like: \u201cI just need to read Evidence\u2026\u201d I just had to hear it from somebody else. And that's also a popular-level book. I needed to go back to some of the original sources and really dive in myself.<\/p>\n<p>But I asked my dad\u2014I don't know, maybe five years ago\u2014I said, \u201cWhat were you really thinking when I said I had doubts?\u201d And he goes, \u201cI wasn't worried.\u201d I said, \u201cWhy?\u201d He said, \u201cBecause the depth of the relationship you and I had, I knew you were going to come full circle.\u201d In other words, he knew I wasn't reacting out of anger, wasn't trying to prove him wrong; but because of our relationship, I could really follow truth where I felt that it led. And he said to me\/he goes, \u201cJesus is the truth. If you really seek after Jesus, I'm confident, you\u2019ll be in the truth.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>So my dad's my hero\u2014I mean, he's human like everybody else\u2014but he's the real deal: the way he treats my mom; the way he is as a grandfather; his heart and his life just gives me nothing but profound respect for him.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:So talk about More Than a Carpenter. How'd this project come about and why?<\/p>\n<p>Sean:So he wrote it first in 1977. Now, he wrote Evidence That Demands a Verdict\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: That's how long ago it was?<\/p>\n<p>Sean: \u2014I think it was 1972 he first wrote Evidence That Demands a Verdict.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:By the way, you picked the right book to do [an update]; if you're going to do Evidence\u2026, I can't imagine how much work that would be.<\/p>\n<p>Sean:Well, he typed it out all himself on a typewriter, initially\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014Evidence\u2026 or More Than a Carpenter?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014typewriter?<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Evidence\u2026\u2014yes, like on a typewriter\u2014because this is the early \u201870s. No publisher wanted it; they didn't think he was going to sell. And that was really the result of him trying to disprove Christianity, being surprised by the evidence. And he started speaking on\u2014and he made these little notes that he would carry around\u2014and they'd sell like gangbusters. So he's like, \u201cI'm just going to put this into a book.\u201d And it sold like wildfire. And that book, like you said, is a reference book. The latest update\u2014we didn't update that until 2017\u2014but the latest edition was 700 pages. And I think the footnotes are even longer than that, if I remember correctly. It's not meant to be read straight-through; although, like you, I meet a lot of people who read it cover to cover.<\/p>\n<p>People kept saying to hm for years, \u201cOh, I just wish I had a summary of that book I could give this someone.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann:That's what I said; yes, because you want to give it to someone.<\/p>\n<p>Sean:That\u2019s exactly right. Now, some people want the big book; other people are like, \u201cJust give me the cliff notes,\u201d so to speak. And so that's why he wrote More Than a Carpenter. He actually had\/I think he had one or two, or maybe three, legal pads at one of the famous McDonald's in Chicago. He went and just wrote this straight over hours\u2014like his first draft\u2014never dreaming that would become one of the most popular Christian books in history: one of the most Christian books translated into other languages; and now, I don't know, 17 million-plus copies in print. I don't think he ever dreamed that this book would be one of the greatest tools of impact that God used in his life for the kingdom.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:You guys decide to update it, and what's that look like?<\/p>\n<p>Sean:He wrote it in \u201977; I think he updated, himself, in the \u201880s\u2014maybe, again in the \u201890s\u2014little tweaks. And then, in 2009, we did a first update together. I was getting ready to start my PhD; I had a double master's. I had been teaching high school maybe five years at that point. I think he felt like, \u201cI could bring you on as a co-author,\u201d and asked me to help him update it in 2009; and so wrote that in 2008. So that's what?\u201416 years ago roughly.<\/p>\n<p>And then, I came to him and the team maybe a year or two ago, and just said, \u201cIt's been 15 years. So much has changed in culture. We need to take this from\u201d\u2014it was a little bit more of a timely book\u2014\"to make it a timeless classic that could outlive if we never had a chance to update it again\u2014almost like a Mere Christianity\u2014make it a little bit more transcendent.\u201d And given that it had been 15 years\u2014now, I have my doctorate; have my own platform\u2014it's like it was an easy \u201cYes,\u201d to get him on board to updating it again.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: So is it any different?<\/p>\n<p>Sean: It's different in a few ways. In the 2009 version, we added a chapter on the new atheism because everybody was talking about Christopher Hitchens, and Daniel Dennett, and Richard Dawkins, and Sam Harris. So the section on science, we added the fine tuning argument and other arguments. Well, that conversation has shifted since 15 years; so we took that [section] out and trimmed up the one on science.<\/p>\n<p>More Than a Carpenter's always been the kind of book you could read in probably two to three hours on a plane ride from California to Dallas or something like that. We made it even shorter and tighter. So I went through the book, and I thought, \u201cAnytime there's a double quote, where you don't need it, I'm taking it out.\u201d So I haven't done the math, but I'm guessing we trimmed it up five to ten percent from what was already a short book. So that's one change.<\/p>\n<p>When you have a book like this that works so well, you don't want to tinker with too much. Anytime I thought, \u201cYou know what? This is a better idea\u201d; I go, \u201cYou know what? It's probably not.\u201d So it's really just not the skeleton and the meat, but just some quotes. There was a quote that was an updated quote on psychology in the \u201cLord, Liar, Lunatic\u201d argument. And it was like\u2014I forget the title\u2014like The New Psychiatry manual. I looked; I'm like, \u201cOkay, this is 1978; I think we need to update this.\u201d So we updated a few of those kind of things. And there's some new arguments that have come out positively. There's a handful of objections we needed to respond to.<\/p>\n<p>But the one piece we added\u2014this was in the 2009 version: is my dad frames the story with his testimony\u2014but in 2009, added the sexual abuse that he had been through. And this is before the Me Too movement, by the way. He took a gamble, in a sense, and started publicly talking about that when it was not like\u2014you kind of get victim status today in people's minds right now, interestingly enough\u2014now, it was the opposite at that point. And he's like, \u201cI need to share this.\u201d So we added\/just made sure a story was really kind of up to date with things that had been public and some of the research had been updated; but it's even a shorter book, because I think attention spans are even less than they were.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Hey guys, we just wanted to take a quick minute to jump in and say, \u201cWhatever you're going through today, you aren't alone.\u201d Dave and I have a team at FamilyLife Today ready to pray for you. It's this incredible honor and a privilege to lift your name up to God. So if you need prayer, please don't hesitate to reach out to us; I really mean that. Head on over to FamilyLife.com\/PrayForMe.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:We love to do it. So go to FamilyLife.com\/PrayForMe and submit your requests. And I mean, do it right now; we would love to pray for you today.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Sean, can you give our listeners just a little taste of\u2014maybe, they haven't heard your dad's story\u2014just a quick whet our appetites for a little bit of the book, because I think people are going to want to pick it up.<\/p>\n<p>Sean:So my dad grew up in about as broken of a background as you can imagine. My dad's dad was the town alcoholic; my dad's older sister took her own life. My dad told me not long ago; he told me\/he [says]\u2014man, I get [emotional] just thinking about it\u2014he [says], \u201cI'm walking outside of the barn with my dad. And he says to me, \u2018You know what, son? You weren't even wanted; you were a mistake.\u2019\u201d I mean, can you imagine being told that?! So my dad was so embarrassed in a small town, having this father was just shameful. Everybody knows your business, and he was sexually abused by someone on their farm. Tells his mom\u2014nobody believes you in the \u201840s\u2014didn't believe you in the \u201890s, let alone the \u201840s.<\/p>\n<p>And so he just met some Christians who were different\u2014had a love and a contentment about life\u2014and he asked him what made their lives different. And they said, \u201cJesus Christ.\u201d My dad thought it was a joke. So he had money from a painting business. He'd just been successful in everything he touched, like the Midas touch, just money and sports and politics. And he set out to try to show that Christianity was false. So he traveled to Europe; to Middle East museums, libraries; met with professors, and ended up being surprised by the evidence. The way he frames it: he [says], \u201cThe evidence got my attention, but it was the love of God that really drew me.\u201d And so that was the heart of his ministry.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: How old was he when he gave his life to Jesus?<\/p>\n<p>Sean:I feel like I should know that question, but he was probably in his lower to mid-20s, somewhere in that range, would be my guess. But you got to realize, at this stage, there's obviously no internet. There's no apologetics movement.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: No one had ever talked about it\u2014had they at that point?<\/p>\n<p>Sean:Nobody; I mean, you have like C.S. Lewis, Francis Schaeffer, and my dad. And Norm Geisler was starting at that time, but there was no John Warwick Montgomery. I mean, there was a handful of people. Now, it's a dime a dozen you can find on the internet; and there's movements, and conferences, and master's degrees.<\/p>\n<p>He was really a trailblazer in this. And this book just took off for other reasons; but other than the people are like, \u201cWow! There's evidence you can actually have and I can read it in two or three hours and share this with somebody.\u201d It just was unheard of at that time.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:I mean, did he immediately start traveling and speaking about this, or was it sort of a grassroots? I mean, we got William Lane Craig debating atheists all over the internet. Was any of that happening then?<\/p>\n<p>Sean:Even William Lane Craig, who did his doctorate on the resurrection, would talk about Evidence That Demands a Verdict being one of the first times he heard it defended. Now, that's a popular defense; and Craig went and did an academic defense. But even defenders like Craig, who are a decade-plus younger than my dad\u2014J.P. Moreland, Greg Koukl, Frank J. Beckwith\u2014they'll attribute my dad as just saying he was a trailblazer doing it before anybody was.<\/p>\n<p>So he still wanted to go into politics. He had a 10-year plan written out, and he would've accomplished it to become the governor of Michigan. And he also wanted to go be a senator. He's one of the only people in my life\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I didn't know that about Michigan.<\/p>\n<p>Sean:Oh, yeah. He had literally a 10-year\u2014charted out, month by month\u2014how he would become the governor of Michigan. And I have literally zero doubt that he could have pulled off. He's one of the few people I know that actually could have been President of the United States and done well at it; he just could have.<\/p>\n<p>And so he was planning to go into politics\u2014went to Wheaton College; that's where it really started to shift some of his thinking\u2014and then ended up going to Talbot School of Theology, not wanting to, just showing up. There's a whole backstory to this\u2014but showing up and\u2014\"I really don't want to enroll, but I feel like God is telling me to. Classes start tomorrow or something\u201d; and \u201cYou're in.\u201d He's like, \u201cOkay.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>And then started\u2014eventually, he was recruited personally by Bill Bright\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: He was; I was going to ask you.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: \u2014not because my dad was anything special at that point\u2014but because Cru was so [young], and Bill would go around, and go to Wheaton; he'd go to these different places\u2014and at least, he was one of the people that my dad met early; because that\u2019s how early Cru was. And then, he went on staff. And even with staff, it was years before he was able to speak.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Oh, really?<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Oh, my goodness.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Oh, I remember hearing stories about your dad cleaning toilets.<\/p>\n<p>Sean:Oh, so this is a separate issue; but my all-time\u2014I've done hundreds, if not thousands, of interviews\u2014all-time favorite story is interviewing my father. He's truly a modern day Apostle Paul, supernatural experiences that only happened to him. For years, he wanted to be a speaker. He tells a story of Billy Graham coming to, I think it was Arrowhead if I remember correctly; and he's so jazzed to meet him, because he wanted to be like a Billy Graham. Someone drags in mud\u2014oh, I just get emotional thinking about it\u2014and they're like, \u201cJosh, you got to clean that up!\u201d And he's like, \u201cI'm not going to do this.\u201d And then, finally he had a thought of, \u201cIf I'm not willing to do this, you don't deserve any platform to reach people for the kingdom.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>So it took him a long time. And frankly, God picks people with certain skill sets and pasts for certain seasons to speak on the free-speech platform to debate Marxists and Muslims, who tell you they're going to kill you if you come back to your country. You have to have a little of confidence, bordering on hubris. And my dad, naturally, has that; he's like, \u201cLet's go!\u201d And so I think God had to sufficiently humble him by a lot of this, and that was a humbling moment. You refer to cleaning toilets\u2014cleaning up dirt but not getting to see Billy Graham\u2014there's a lot of moments like that in his life.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Were there years of that? I didn't recognize that that took a while.<\/p>\n<p>Sean:He was on Cru for years. He went to Canada; he was down in Latin America, debating Marxists and getting thrown in prison. I mean, it's like stuff you can\u2019t make up.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: He was thrown in prison. I don't even know half this stuff! Do you?!<\/p>\n<p>Sean:Really? If you just search Sean McDowell, Josh McDowell, YouTube, he shares stories on this; and they will blow you away. So he enrolled into a Marxist school, because he was debating Marxists and wanted to learn firsthand. They learned he had infiltrated them and what he was doing. So they threw a 12-year-old girl in front of his car\u2014nothing he could do; ran her over\u2014and then, arrested him; threw him in prison.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: That's awful!<\/p>\n<p>Sean: Yeah; he's like, I remember hearing people getting tortured from his prison cell. He [says], \u201cActually, a lot of stuff you see in the movies of prisons in Latin America\u201d\u2014he [says]\u2014\"that stuff was not too inaccurate.\u201d At least, this must have been, I don't know, the \u201860s or something like that; early \u201860s maybe.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Now, when you [tell] that story, you're tearing up; what are you feeling?<\/p>\n<p>Sean:Now, my dad's 85; and he's retired. He's not publicly speaking anymore. And so writing this book is probably\u2014whoo\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Now, we\u2019re all crying.<\/p>\n<p>Sean: \u2014probably one of the last public things we'll probably do together.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:What a beautiful legacy.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: So that all\u2014it makes me want to hear all of his stories\u2014are those on your YouTube channel that you interviewed him with?\u2014those stories?<\/p>\n<p>Sean:I did twice. I could tell you stories that are, I mean, literally supernatural.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Tell us some.<\/p>\n<p>Sean:Well, I'll tell you one: he's at Talbot. He was really bothered by his mom had passed away. He knew his dad had become a Christian, because he led him to Christ; but his mom had died years before he was a believer.<\/p>\n<p>[Emotion in voice] Thank you; it's been a long time since someone gave me tissue in an interview.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Notice, I didn't get one.<\/p>\n<p>Sean:I need it.<\/p>\n<p>He was walking out of the Santa Monica pier, which is not too far from Bio and Talbott. He said, \u201cI was standing at the end, praying. I just needed to know if my mom was saved or not.\u201d And somebody walked up, thinking he was maybe going to jump and commit suicide or something like that, and ends up having a conversation. If I remember correctly, this individual knew my grandma from Michigan, and was at a revival, and went forward with her to accept Christ. I mean, this must have been, I don't know, \u201820s or \u201830s. So how he possibly knew this person at Santa Monica at that moment. I'm sorry; that's just clearly supernatural.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: That\u2019s so crazy!<\/p>\n<p>Sean:He's the only person I know that this kind of stuff has happened consistently over and over again to his life. So that's one example; I could tell you more. I want people to go listen, because it\u2019s my all-time favorite interview; but there was a time when he was speaking for Cru\u2014I don't remember where it was at; he would remember\u2014and they were in a big outdoor college campus kind of presentation. Somebody was revving their engine, and trying to distract everything, and nobody could hear. He just turned; he says something\u2014he [says], \u201cI learned about the authority of the believer,\u201d\u2014\"I was like, \u2018In the name of Jesus Christ, be silent\u2019; and the engine blows up.\u201d He's like, \u201cThat's where I gained confidence in the authority of the believer.\u201d I don't even think I'd have the guts to pray that; I just wouldn't!<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Did he pray it out loud?!<\/p>\n<p>Sean:Oh, I don't remember if he did; I think he did. It was like these are just the kinds of things\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I could see him doing that, couldn't you?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: It's like storm [Jesus said]: \u201cBe still.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann:We're all teary.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:I mean, I think we're teary because of the move of God in your life, and your legacy, and your dad. I mean, we didn't know those stories.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:And I think it gives us all hope that maybe our kids will question. But I love your dad's confidence in His God\u2014in Jesus\u2014that you'd come back. It just makes me hopeful for our legacies. It feels like the world\u2014I think it can feel crazy for all of us\u2014and I think more than ever, we're worried about our kids, and our families, and our grandkids. I think you guys\u2014you and your dad; your family\u2014Sean, they give us hope that the gospel will continue and Jesus prevails.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:I mean, we got to wrap up; but if your dad is listening to this program, and you were like, \u201cDad, I want to say this to you\u2026\u201d, what would you say to him?<\/p>\n<p>Sean:You know what? I can honestly tell you, I think I've told my dad everything that I want to communicate to him.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:That\u2019s awesome.<\/p>\n<p>Sean:And that's only because, for the last five years\u2014I think since he turned 80\u2014every time we hang up with the phone, I always\/the last words are, \u201cI love you\u201d; because I want that to be my last words to my dad. So I've thought about a lot: \u201cAre there any questions I haven't asked him, that in five years, I'll think, \u2018Oh, why didn't I ask him this?\u2019\u201d I feel that way about my grandpa, who served in World War II; I'm like, \u201cI was such an idiot; why didn't I ask him these questions? What on earth?\u201d I don't want to feel that way about my dad.<\/p>\n<p>We had a big event with JMM [Josh McDowell Ministry]; I think it was maybe two summers ago. And I thought, \u201cWat's the last thing I just need to say to my dad that I would regret not saying?\u201d And the only thing that came to mind was I said in front of his staff\/I said, \u201cThanks for not ever pressuring me to go into ministry. Thanks for not ever putting any expectations on me other than \u2018Just use your gifts for the kingdom, whatever they are.\u201d\u201d So I can't think of anything, other than I just tell him I love him again, and I'm proud of him.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:And I would say on behalf of Ann and I\u2014and hopefully, thousands of listeners\u2014\u201cThank you.\u201d He has impacted; and you are, now, impacting us\u2014and thousands, hundreds of thousands; maybe, possibly millions of people\u2014what a legacy. I mean, I think I'm really sitting here, and I didn't really know your dad; I just met him a couple times. But because of his work, it reignited a faith. And here we are, 44\/45 years of ministry, when in month two, I almost said, \u201cWe just made the dumbest mistake of our lives.\u201d And here we are. And I am so thankful there was a resource for a person like me.<\/p>\n<p>And we're going to talk tomorrow a little bit more about More Than a Carpenter. I mean, it's so simple but profound. I think our listeners need to know a little bit more about More Than Carpenter.<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: Josh McDowell has been so influential in countless lives, mine included, because of his faithfulness to Christ and advancing His kingdom. And Sean is a living testament to that. It was so encouraging to hear this conversation with him today.<\/p>\n<p>I'm Shelby Abbott, and you've been listening to David Ann Wilson, with Sean McDowell, on FamilyLife Today. Sean has been an instrumental part in helping to create and rewrite More Than a Carpenter, originally written by his father, Josh; but they've worked on it together. And you can get your copy of the brand-new edition of More Than a Carpenter right now by going online to FamilyLife Today.com. Or you can look for the link in the show notes, or feel free to give us a call to request your copy. Our number is 800-358-6329. Again, that number is 800-F as in family, L as in life, and then, the word, TODAY.<\/p>\n<p>Hey, do you follow us on social media? If not, you can head over to Instagram and look for our handle at FamilyLife Insta; or find us on Facebook, just search for FamilyLife. That way you'll get more regular encouragement from the ministry of FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>Now, coming up tomorrow, Sean McDowell is back; and he's going to talk about the new edition of More Than a Carpenter. This book examines arguments for Jesus's resurrection and divinity and addresses contemporary questions and challenges in Christian apologetics. So check that out tomorrow when Sean is back.<\/p>\n<p>On behalf of David Ann Wilson, I'm Shelby Abbott. We'll see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>FamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry.<\/p>\n<p>Helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.<\/p>\n<p>If you\u2019ve benefited from the FamilyLife Today transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs of producing them and making them available online?<\/p>\n<p>Copyright \u00a9 2024 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.<\/p>\n<p>www.FamilyLife.com<\/p>\n","theme_header_position":"Sticky","post_header_is_sticky":"default","is_header_overlay":"0"},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/298341","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/47000"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=298341"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/280865"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=298341"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=298341"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=298341"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=298341"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=298341"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=298341"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}