{"id":298269,"date":"2024-09-20T08:00:00","date_gmt":"2024-09-20T12:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/real-bad-guys-jimmy-kelly-needham\/"},"modified":"2025-06-10T14:43:10","modified_gmt":"2025-06-10T18:43:10","slug":"real-bad-guys-jimmy-kelly-needham","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/real-bad-guys-jimmy-kelly-needham\/","title":{"rendered":"Real Bad Guys: Jimmy &#038; Kelly Needham"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>Inspired by a conversation with his young daughter, Jimmy Needham wrote a kids book about needing a savior and God looking beyond appearances. Listen as he and his wife, Kelly, join Dave and Ann Wilson to tell us more!<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Jimmy Needham wrote a book to help kids understand that they need a savior and that God looks beyond appearances. He and his wife, Kelly, tell us more!<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":47000,"featured_media":280865,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"audio","audio_file":"https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/14bccb0c-3765-4f26-b917-b1dc01334a83\/audio.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:28:36","filesize":"26.23M","filesize_raw":"","date_recorded":"2024-09-20 08:00:00","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2850,2806],"tags":[],"podcast_series":[],"cwp_profile":[3631,3632],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-298269","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-character-development","category-spiritual-development","cwp_profile-jimmy-needham","cwp_profile-kelly-needham","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/06\/image-scaled.jpg?w=1024","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/298269\/real-bad-guys-jimmy-kelly-needham","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/298269\/real-bad-guys-jimmy-kelly-needham","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"1Eg0iBrp0g\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/real-bad-guys-jimmy-kelly-needham\/\">Real Bad Guys: Jimmy &#038; Kelly Needham<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/real-bad-guys-jimmy-kelly-needham\/embed\/#?secret=1Eg0iBrp0g\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Real Bad Guys: Jimmy &#038; Kelly Needham&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"1Eg0iBrp0g\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"secondline_imported_guid":["14bccb0c-3765-4f26-b917-b1dc01334a83"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/14bccb0c-3765-4f26-b917-b1dc01334a83\/audio.mp3"],"duration":["00:28:36"],"filesize":["26.23M"],"_thumbnail_id":["280865"],"show_notes":["<ul>\n<li>Connect with Jimmy &amp; Kelly Needham at their <a href=\"https:\/\/www.jimmyandkelly.com\/\">website<\/a>!<\/li>\n<li>Get your copy of \"<a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product\/real-bad-guys-a-story-about-good-vs-bad-and-the-way-god-sees-it\">Real Bad Guys: A Story About Good vs. Bad and the Way God Sees It<\/a>\" in our shop.<\/li>\n<li>Find <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/guest\/jimmy-needham\/\">Jimmy<\/a> &amp; <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/guest\/kelly-needham\/\">Kelly<\/a> on previous episodes of FamilyLife Today.<\/li>\n<li>Join us aboard the <a href=\"https:\/\/www.lovelikeyoumeanitcruise.com\/\">Love Like You Mean It Marriage Cruise<\/a> from February 8-15 for an exclusive journey dedicated to strengthening your marriage.<\/li>\n<li>Find resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/past-radio-resources\/\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Find more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<\/li>\n<li>Help others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Check out all the FamilyLife's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n"],"transcript_content":["<p>FamilyLife Today\u00ae National Radio Version (time edited) Transcript<\/p>\n<p>References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete.<\/p>\n<p>Real Bad Guys<\/p>\n<p>Guests:Jimmy and Kelly Needham<\/p>\n<p>From the series:Real Bad Guys (Day 1 of 1)<\/p>\n<p>Air date:September 20, 2024<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: I don't want my children to grow up with an impression of, \u201cI'm basically good. Jesus is really more for those folks. I have got to wait until my life falls apart for the cross to make sense to me.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: If that's how you're thinking about Christianity, you're actually missing it.<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: This is FamilyLife Today!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: So, I'm looking at a children's book.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I love children's books\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014I know you do. You're the best!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014because we read all the time as our kids were growing up.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Well, I'm going to read the first page.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Oh, you are? [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Well, I'm not going to do a voice or anything\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014okay.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014but I'm going to\u2014I mean, I remember when I got the PDF, and I loved it from the start! It says, \u201cI sure hope you're wearing a belt, because you're about to get the pants scared right off you! Get ready, because I've got a story about some real bad guys.\u201d [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>I know I didn't do a good job reading it.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: Sucked us right in!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: It did!<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: Yes, that\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Well, we've got the author right here\u2014Jimmy Needham, sitting there with his wife Kelly. And have you ever written a children's book before?<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: This is my first kids\u2019 book to write, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Why? Why?<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: But can I out you, though, that you have sketched out kids\u2019 books before?<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: I have.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Oh.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: It has been an interest of yours since the day I knew you.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Well, you have 5 kids.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: I'm eleven years old in my insides. [Laughter] So, yes, that's right.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Which is interesting, Jimmy, because you're a seminary student; you're a pastor; you're a recording artist.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: You kind of have your hands on a lot of different things.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: But why a children's book?<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: I love deep theology. I love\u2014like you said, I'm in seminary; I'm doing all that; I love that. But I'm also ridiculous. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Is this true? Kelly's [nodding] her head.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: 100%, this is true.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: What do you mean, ridiculous? Why are you shaking your head?<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: Go watch our podcast, and you will find out very quickly. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I've watched it. It's fun to watch.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: I just love\u2014I love to play.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: Yes, it is true.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: I love fun. It's actually been such a great outlet for me, writing this book, because it does allow me to scratch all of my theological itches [Laughter] while also being as absurd as I want to be, and nobody tells me I can't.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: So, it was fun to explore that side of things and [say], \u201cOh, I can have a pirate with hooks on his hands and feet, [Laughter] and I can talk about, you know\u2014\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: \u2014which has really been a long-time dream of yours, to combine your love of humor and silliness\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: \u2014yes.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: \u2014with deep, meaningful theology. Jimmy: I know!<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: It really has been something.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: \u2014t's an odd pairing, people, [Laughter] \u2014<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: \u2014yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: \u2014but we're going to see if it works.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: It works! I'm telling you right now.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I laughed out loud at the pirate with this\u2014not just one hook\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: \u2014yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014but it's two hooks, and then Henry\u2019s feet, too! [Laughter] \u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: Two on his feet; he's got four hooks. [Laughter] It's unfortunate, but you know, \u2018tis a pirate\u2019s life. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, and it's interesting to hear your back story on it because, when I'm reading it, I'm laughing\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014because your humor comes in. There are these little clips.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You're [wondering], \u201cWhere am I going?\u201d But the theology's rich!<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: Yes. Thank you.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Kids are going to pick up both, and the graphics!<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Your artist is phenomenal!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: The illustrator did a great job.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: He did.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I have got to be honest: when I got it, I [thought], \u201cUgh, a kids\u2019 book.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Not me.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And then I\u2019m like, \u201cOh my goodness!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: Yes,<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u201cThis is not like every kids\u2019 book.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: It's different.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: It\u2019s going to grab you.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: It's a different sort of take on things, which has been really fun for me. I love different.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: So, talk about Real Bad Guys.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: What's the theology?<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: I'm a parent, so I'm constantly in conversations about really important things with my kiddos, you know?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Who range from\u20145 kids; between the ages of 1 and 13.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: One and 13.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: So, you\u2019ve got a range.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: I'm in all the conversations!<\/p>\n<p>Dave and Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: That\u2019s right!<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: And I\u2019m just hitting all of it. This particular book started\u2014there was a conversation I remember having with one of my daughters. We were watching something\u2014it was like a news broadcast or something\u2014and the story was about a criminal. He'd done something bad, and the police were looking for him, or whatever. And, you know, you've got the folks on screen; you have the officer of the case and all that. I remember her pointing to the suspect and saying something like, \u201cDad is that the bad guy?\u201d She was trying to sort out who the characters are in this story.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: \u201cWho am I supposed\u201d\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014that\u2019s true! Kids always distinguish, \u201cWho is the good guy?\u201d\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: \u2014that\u2019s right!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014\"Who is the bad guy?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: \u201cWho am I rooting for?\u201d\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014yes!<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: \u2014\u201cWho would I want to lose?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Right.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: That whole thing. And she\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: \u2014they ask about it in movies.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: Of course!<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: Right?<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: Yes: \u201cI need to know who's on the naughty list.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And they say \u201cbad guy\u201d a lot.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: They do!<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: I know!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u201cWho\u2019s the bad guy?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: \u201cWho\u2019s the bad guy?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: So, she [asks], \u201cWho's the\u2014is that the bad guy?\u201d And I felt, immediately, a couple of things in me. The first was,\u201d I know what you're trying to do. You're trying to sort out the characters,\u201d\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: \u2014but also, as a Christian, I know that the answer\u2019s more complex\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: \u2014than just, \u201cHe's the bad guy,\u201d because my Bible reveals that he's the bad guy and everybody else on that screen is the bad guy; [Laughter] and I'm the bad\u2014and you, asking the question, you're the\u2014because all of us, at our core, we all have sinned. We've all rejected God. Apart from Christ, we're all the bad guy.<\/p>\n<p>But how do I say this to an 8-year-old? [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: How do I make that make sense to her? Something that's really important\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: \u2014that she needs to know, but\u2014and that I don't just want to gloss over with, \u201cOh yes, that's the bad guy.\u201d Because when you do that, you're reinforcing all the stereotypes. It's like, \u201cOh, the scary-looking people\u2014the people who do the outwardly criminal things; those are the people who are bad and therefore, those are the people who need a savior. But what about my sweet daughter who is at the top of her class in school; who keeps all the rules; who is nice and obedient? Will she ever be able to see her need for a savior if she doesn't realize she's on that same list as the guy on the screen?<\/p>\n<p>So, that's what started this book for me was going, \u201cI want to be able to help you sense that we all need the same Savior,\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: So, that was kind of the genesis of this story.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Really good. Did you read the book? I know that you've read the book to the kids. What did they think?<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: They love it, thank the Lord, [Laughter] because that's my target audience. So, yes. And the main character, Millie: she's sort of based on my second oldest daughter.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Awe.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: I thought, as I was starting to daydream about this, I thought, \u201cWell, how do you talk about this in a way that'd be interesting for kids?\u201d The first thought that occurred to me was, \u201cIt would be really funny if all the stereotypical bad guys that we think about would be on that screen. What if they came to life and corrected her theology? What if she was getting it wrong like my daughter was? What if the nefarious fellas were the ones who\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: \u2014teaching her right theology.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: \u2014teaching her right theology?\u201d So, that's what happened. I wrote a story, [and] it's got a gangster, and a pirate, and a robber, and a mad scientist, and draculas in it. The book begins just like you read a second ago, where she's\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014but you need to read it.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: \u2014Why?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Well, I was going to say, \u201cAt least you have Dracula.\u201d Like, when I first saw that: \u201cOh, there's a Dracula.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Would parents have a pushback to that?<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: Sure.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: He's not scary\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: \u2014no.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014in a like, \u201cOh, I don't want to look\u201d kind of way.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: No.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: He's kind of funny.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: Yes. There's really nothing scary about the book and that's kind of the funny thing about it.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: All these guys who you should be terrified by are actually sweet goofballs [Laughter] who actually have some really robust theology, [Laughter] so it turns out.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, they're good.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I have to hear like you probably have an accent\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: \u2014yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014when you read it to your kids.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Can you read a page or two?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Kelly, who's his best accent of these characters?<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: Oh, don\u2019t just\u2014 [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: \u2014Oh, I love the mad scientist.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: Yes. I\u2019m trying to see\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: \u2014That\u2019s a favorite of mine.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: \u2014if I can pull this up. Oh, here we go. So, she's introducing her bad guys.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Okay, he's getting into character.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: Yes. She's introducing her bad guys and Millie goes, \u201cMeet the wicked Captain Hooks!\u201d (Right, this is Millie talking.) \u201cThat's right! Plural. You think having one hook on your hand is freaky? How about having them on both hands?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>And then he goes, \u201cYes, and two on me feet. It'd be a hardship, but \u2018tis a Pirate\u2019s life.\u201d [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>And it's ridiculous.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Wow. Wow.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: It's ridiculous.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Are you going to put this on Audible?<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: We're actually making a whole video of me reading the book in all the characters with all the costumes. [Laughter] Yes, to just get to folks\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014wait! You're going to wear costumes?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014You\u2019re going to wear the character?<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: \u2014I\u2019ve already bought them all\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: \u2014oh, they're already in the house.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014what?<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: I've seen them all. It\u2019s wonderful.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: It was my favorite trip to Amazon Online. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Really?<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: Man, I just went nuts.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Who's the mad scientist? He doesn't seem like he'd be a bad guy, but he is.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: He is a bad guy. Yes. Well, you know, it's sort of that classic guy scheming with his poisons in a laboratory, but he's actually the one who introduces this whole topic to Millie of, \u201cHey, what if being bad isn't really how you thought? What if God looks more at the inside than the outside?\u201d That's really\u2014the punch line of the book is: the way I distinguish it is to talk about \u201coutside bad\u201d versus \u201cinside bad.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Right.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: You know that\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014which was genius to me.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: \u2014anyone can see that\u2014 it's easy for me to spot: like, you're holding an axe [Laughter] when you're running around like a mad person, like, \u201cYes, that guy is probably bad.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>What about a sweet-looking innocent girl? Or what about\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: \u2014God sees past that.<\/p>\n<p>So, at one point, they bring out\u2014they say, \u201cBring out the X-ray machine!\u201d (That's the mad scientist.) They put it in front of her and they [say], \u201cHey, look at these two guys!\u201d They bring out an inmate, and then actually, the little Easter egg in this book is the other person standing next to the inmate is me that the artist drew into the book. I look like a normal guy, and the inmates in the black and white stripes [are] looking like \u201ca bad guy\u201d.<\/p>\n<p>Then we turn on the X-ray but what do you see inside? It's all thoughts about me, wanting me to be glorified; \u201cI'm more important than God,\u201d \u2014 all of that. It's an ugly truth, but it's the truth that the Bible reveals about what all of our hearts look like.<\/p>\n<p>When Millie realizes it, she goes, \u201cSo, I guess we're all bad guys then,\u201d and she's lamenting, \u201cI guess there's no hope.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I think the gangster says, \u201cWell, not all of us are bad.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Wait! You have to say it like the gangster. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: [In gangster voice] \u201cWell, we're not all bad, Missy.\u201d [Laughter] What she discovers is: we are all bad but there has been only one real \u201cGood Guy\u201d, and He died in our place. And He died so that God would treat us like \u201creal good guys\u201d even though we aren't.<\/p>\n<p>If I have one concern\u2014I feel this is a pastor and I feel this as a parent to kids\u2014is not that these people are going to go off and live wild lives. My biggest concern is that they're going to live basically good lives\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: \u2014and convince themselves that they don't need a Savior.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: And that they\u2019re okay: \u201cI'm basically a good person.\u201d It's like this is how the Pharisees saw themselves and those were the people that our Lord had the harshest words for. I don't want my children to grow up with an impression of, \u201cI'm basically good. Jesus is really more for those folks. I have got to wait till my life falls apart for the cross to make sense to me.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: If that's how you're thinking about Christianity, you're actually missing it.<\/p>\n<p>I wrote this because I don't want to make little Pharisees. I want everyone to see their deep need for a Savior. It's amazing when you see that: not only does the cross become beautiful to you, but we become people who stop looking down our nose at other people too, because we realize, just like all these \u201cbad guys\u201d in the book, \u201cI'm on the same plane as you. We need the same mercy from God.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Man, I so want that for my kids and for any child to read that.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You're right. There's a part of us that thinks, \u201cIf you put the X-ray machine on me, \u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: \u2014yes, \u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014my insides\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: \u2014you won\u2019t see that much stuff.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014compared to this dude, \u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: \u2014sure.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014I'm better.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>But I love how you wrote, \u201cJesus was duh only person;\u201d (not the) \u201cJesus, was duh only person who was good on da outside and on da inside.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: What a turn in this book for a 5-year-old, 10-year-old, 15-year-old, to go, \u2014<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: \u2014yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: \u2014that\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014 \u201cWhat do you mean by that?\u201d The Gospel just jumps off the page.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Well, I also like how you take Millie on a journey of her discovering the things\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: \u2014that\u2019s right!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014that she has done.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Walk us through a couple of those. Do you remember some of her discoveries?<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: Yes. So, those might be the most important pages of the book. She's [thinking], \u201cOh, okay. So, like when I buy gifts for my friends and give it to them but I'm only doing it so that they'll give me a gift later.\u201d It's like, \u201cOkay, is the giving of a gift a bad thing?\u201d No. Anybody would look at that and they would say, \u201cGood for you. That's amazing!\u201d But what's happening on the inside of her? She's doing it because she wants herself to be celebrated.<\/p>\n<p>Or, when I sing loud at church, but only so other people would hear me and tell me how good [of] a singer I am. It's like if you saw somebody's just pouring their heart out and worship on a Sunday morning, you'd go, \u201cBe more like that person.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave and Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: But we don't know what's happening in the heart.<\/p>\n<p>Again, I want to expose the readers to a new category of you can be doing the right things. Again, the Pharisees did so many of the right things.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Right.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: They prayed the prayers; they gave tithes of all that they got. Remember the Pharisee and the tax collector story, right? \u201cI fast twice a week. I give tithes.\u201d But he was not justified before God because he was doing it for himself.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: Well, I think the temptation as parents is to actually affirm this goodness in our kids. There's, I think, a strong temptation when our kids come to us: \u201cBut no, you're good. No, you're doing great. No, I'm\u2014.\" And we should be celebrating them; that's part of our role as parents to be encouragers\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: \u2014that\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: \u2014to celebrate the wins. But as Christian parents, it's also our job to evangelize our kids. They do not come out [of] the womb saved. [Laughter] They don't, and we all know that. But the first part of the Gospel narrative is this piece we're talking about; that you wrote about. It's: \u201cYou need to see your need, and that starts with seeing motive.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>For most of our kids, it's going to start with motive. They're probably not going to be the kids\u2014if you're listening to this program, they're probably not the kids who are doing outward bad things. You're probably training them well; they're probably moral; they're probably learning those things, but they still need to see: \u201cI'm motivated by self.\u201d And seeing that in every action is what's going to lead them to the cross.<\/p>\n<p>And you, being able to admit as a parent: \u201cMe too. I'm only seeing change in that motive because I'm going to Jesus, not because I'm trying harder.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: One of the things I've been intrigued\u2014it's different being a grandparent because I'm observing\u2014I think in parenting, you're just in it so much.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: In grandparenting, you're observing sometimes, like, \u201cOh, that's so interesting,\u201d because sometimes when I'm with them, they like to hear stories where I have failed\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: \u2014yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014or I have sinned. Like, \u201cWhat did you do?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: Yes, sure.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And so, I realized, it's good for me to share my weaknesses\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: \u2014yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014and how I have sinned and what I have done with it. Why do you guys think that is with your five kids when you have failed?<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: Well\u2014and you're right! Our kids like the same thing.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: They do?<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: They do, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: Yes, yes. I think it reminds them [that] you're human. Now you're relatable.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: That\u2019s right, \u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014yes.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: \u2014yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: Now, you're not some unachievable standard that it's like, \u201cWell, [I\u2019ll] never be like Mom and Dad. I might as well abandon the whole project.\u201d [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>It's like\u2014one thing we try to do a lot with our kids, (and we have plenty of opportunities to because we're sinners) is just repent to them a lot.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: Like the other day\u20142 days ago, I was with my son, and he had done something or other, and I was so angry in my moment of disciplining him. I was able to control myself, but not to the degree I liked. So, I came back to him that night and I just owned it. I was like, \u201cI was disciplining you out of anger and I think that was unkind to you. It didn't please the Lord. I'm sorry. I hope you can forgive me.\u201d He's five, but I want him to have a ton of memories\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: \u2014yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: \u2014of his dad\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave and Ann: \u2014yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: \u2014being able to go: \u201cI failed. I am not perfect. There's only one real Good Guy. It's Jesus. It's not me.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>If that's one of the takeaways he has when he's 18, leaving the house; it's like: \u201cMy dad repented a lot to me.\u201d It's like, \u201cWell, I'm really happy for that, you know?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: That's big.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: Well, and you're showing them the way into the Kingdom when you do that, because that's how we come to Jesus, in repentance and faith. But if they've never seen anybody repent\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014yes.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: \u2014they don't know what that looks like. It's just words.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And I think too, as a parent, I did that a lot. But I would continue to beat myself up. It's almost like the Gospel had no effect: where I repented before Jesus; I apologized to my kids; went to them and owned it. But then I would continue this barrage of: \u201cYou are failing. \u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: \u2014yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014You're a bad parent.\u201d And that's when the enemy can kind of slip in\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy and Kelly: \u2014yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014but it's the beauty of the Gospel. Receive it!<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: Yes!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: The price has been paid for us and we can rest in that. And I'll say this: \u201cMy kids remember the repentance\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy and Kelly: \u2014yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014more than what I actually did.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy and Kelly: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I prayed that too: \u201cLord, let them forget [Laughter] all the ways I messed up, Jesus. There\u2019s so many.\u201d And they do a lot of times.<\/p>\n<p>So, I would say, \u201cReceive His grace\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: \u2014yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014as a parent. Make sure you apologize. Talk to Jesus about it. Tell Him the truth. Figure out what's going on in your heart. But man, give yourself grace because He does.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: Yes. That's right.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: He does, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And I love at the end you have conversation starters\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014Me too!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014so you literally give parents some questions that say, \u201cOkay\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: \u2014a little bit of fodder for\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014yes, \u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: \u2014for discussion. \u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014and they're good. I mean, you're going to have a pretty deep conversation\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: \u2014yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014with a three, or five, or eight-year-old, \u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014Let's ask a question.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014if you do that.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Did you see one that you want to talk about?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes. In the story, Millie learns about \u201coutside bad\u201d and \u201cinside bad\u201d. What do these terms mean? How are they different from each other?<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I mean, you're digging into [Laughter] the depravity of sin. \u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: \u2014yes, we talked about that in seminary.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014yes.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: When we've had that conversation a little bit with our own kids, and it's interesting that within our five children, there are some that are more outside bad kids, [Laughter] right? \u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave and Ann: \u2014yes.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: \u2014And some that are more inside bad kids.<\/p>\n<p>Dave and Ann: Yes<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: So, we've got a few of them that are really good at following the rules but are really manipulative. So, it's like they can follow Mom and Dad's rules and kind of stay in line and not get as many of those discipline moments.<\/p>\n<p>And then there are others who are just wild and fearless and, \u201cI'm just going to do what I want.\u201d The ones who are more obedient on the outside can tend to have this pride about it.<\/p>\n<p>So, we've had really good conversations\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: \u2014yes, we have.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: \u2014with some of our kids, trying to help them see: \u201cInside bad isn't always breaking the rules.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: It's why you're doing what you\u2019re doing. \u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: \u2014It's why you keep the rules.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014oh!<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: \u2014Why you keep the rules; that you're actually the same as this sibling of yours who you kind of look down your nose at. It's like, \u201cYes, they have outside bad; it's different.\u201d We can recognize it's different.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: You have a question that goes along with that. I'm thinking, \u201cThis would be so fun to have kids and talk about these questions.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: You can probably only do one question at the dinner table.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: That\u2019s right, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: Right.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: But one question even for a night. Here's one of the questions: \u201cIt can be tempting\u201d (this is what you're talking about) \u201cto look down on others who have more outside bad than us, like kids who get in trouble at school, or siblings who might not obey Mom and Dad as well as you. How can seeing your own inside bad change how you treat other people?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Guys, that's just deep!<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: We could ask that every day in our marriage. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I was just going to say that's not just parenting.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy and Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: That's a marriage thing\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy and Ann: \u2014yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014because we do the same thing in marriage. When you said, \u201cSome of your kids are better inside\/ outside, I thought, \u201cWhat's Jimmy?\u201d [Laughter] Is he better outside bad or inside bad because I'm\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: \u2014I've got it all. I tried to do both. [Laughter] I tried to get a little bit of outside; a little bit of inside. We just keep it\u2014yes, that's right.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I tend to be a rebel, so I'm more outside\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: \u2014I was going to say I\u2014 definitely coming into marriage\u2014I was the \u201cI'm the Inside Bad person. You [Jimmy] were the\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: \u2014yes.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: \u2014Outside [Bad Person],\u201d [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes, that was Dave and I too, for sure.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: Well, what's interesting\u2014and I think this is related to this conversation\u2014[Jimmy] you've had such a big effect on me in a positive way that as my pride was being exposed in some areas of my life; some spiritual pride, especially early on in our marriage, I felt so distraught. This picture I had of myself as this good Christian woman is getting destroyed and I'm grieving that.<\/p>\n<p>I remember talking to you about it one day and going, \u201cI thought the water in my glass was clean and now it's all dirty. I'm so sad.\u201d And your response to me at one point was, \u201cWell, my glass fell over, and all the water poured out a long time ago. [Laughter] That's why I'm okay with it;\u201d because I think I was asking for advice like, \u201cHow do I deal this?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>But really, at an early age in your life, and then throughout\u2014the way that God saved you; your own personal testimony and story; you've been so thoroughly convinced of your badness from the moment I met you that it's actually helped you understand the Gospel more, receive it more, and live it out more than I was able to as a church kid who had all the rule-following together.<\/p>\n<p>So, I'm excited about this book because it's Christian parents who are going to buy it, and those are the kids who need that truth\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave and Ann: \u2014yes.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: \u2014because it will set them free. It's very counterintuitive to tell their kids they're bad\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave and Ann: \u2014yes.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: \u2014 to set them free but it will produce more lasting freedom.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: I've seen that in you, and it's really changed me as well.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And it's written in such a fun, compelling, draws-everybody-in, \u2014<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: \u2014yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014well done! We're always looking for great children's books, and when they're deeper in theology, whoo! That is a bonus!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, that is good.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: The thing I love about you guys is you're such fans of each other.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: I'm a big fan of this girl right here.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I can tell\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: \u2014big fan.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014both ways. Well done!<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: One of the defining things in my life lately has been the grace that God has given me to see myself not as a good person, but a bad person who needs to be set free from my badness. And it's been grace that God has given me to see that. I love this, and I love, like Kelly said, the counter-intuitiveness of telling your kids that they're bad. It doesn't sound very much like what we communicate in our culture today, but this could be the very thing that sets them free.<\/p>\n<p>I'm Shelby Abbott, and you've been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson with Jimmy and Kelly Needham on FamilyLife Today. Jimmy has written a book called Real Bad Guys: A Story about Good vs Bad and the Way God Sees It. You can get your copy right now, of Jimmy\u2019s book, by going online to FamilyLifeToday.com or clicking on the link in the show notes. Or feel free to give us a call at 800-358-6329 to request your copy. Again, that number is 800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Even though it's mid-September, the truth is, February is just around the corner. Why am I telling you about February right now? Well, [on] February 8th, we are setting sail for the Love Like You Mean It \u00ae Marriage Cruise. That's right! It goes from February 8th through the 15th, where you can join a community of like-minded couples and really entrench yourself in a journey designed to rejuvenate your marriage, but, more importantly, draw you closer to Christ.<\/p>\n<p>There are limited spaces still available, but they are limited, so head over to FamilyLifeToday.com and click on the Love Like You Mean It Marriage Cruise banner. There, you can secure your reservation and get ready to embark on a week of relaxation, renewal, and romance. Again, you can head over to FamilyLifeToday.com. Just click on the Love Like You Mean It Marriage Cruise banner.<\/p>\n<p>So, as we approach the end of September, it might be weird to think about it, but Halloween is coming up soon, and depending on how you think about that, it can be a great opportunity to reach your neighbors and your neighborhood for Christ. Well, Jimmy and Kelly Needham have some advice to help you with that, based on a few things that they have done. You can watch a video about that, read an article, and download a specific playbook that they've developed. You can head over to FamilyLifeToday.com or click on the link in the show notes to get all those resources.<\/p>\n<p>Now, coming up next week, if you couldn't join us for the last Love Like You Mean It Marriage Cruise, don't worry. Brian and Stephanie Carter are going to be here to talk about their insights on building and restoring trust in your marriage. It's a message from the Love Like You Mean It Marriage Cruise last year. That's coming up next week. We hope you'll join us.<\/p>\n<p>On behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Shelby Abbott. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>FamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry.<\/p>\n<p>Helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.<\/p>\n<p>We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright \u00a9 2024 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.<\/p>\n<p>www.FamilyLife<\/p>\n"],"_edit_lock":["1749582283:47000"],"_edit_last":["47000"],"theme_header_position":["Sticky"],"post_header_is_sticky":["default"],"is_header_overlay":["0"],"episode_type":["audio"],"date_recorded":["2024-09-20 08:00:00"],"enclosure":["https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/14bccb0c-3765-4f26-b917-b1dc01334a83\/audio.mp3"],"_seopress_redirections_type":["301"],"_seopress_redirections_logged_status":["both"],"_seopress_analysis_target_kw":[""],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2024-09-20.pdf"],"_g_feedback_shortcode_5fb19926fa02e8aebb978f3bc426d0c8e3078134":["\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Name\" type=\"name\"  required=\"true\" \/]\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Email\" type=\"email\" required=\"true\" \/]\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Website\" type=\"url\" \/]\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Message\" type=\"textarea\" \/]"],"_g_feedback_shortcode_atts_5fb19926fa02e8aebb978f3bc426d0c8e3078134":["a:17:{s:2:\"to\";s:29:\"margaret.coyle@familylife.com\";s:7:\"subject\";s:66:\"[FamilyLife - A Cru Ministry] Real Bad Guys: Jimmy & Kelly Needham\";s:12:\"show_subject\";s:2:\"no\";s:6:\"widget\";i:0;s:14:\"block_template\";N;s:19:\"block_template_part\";N;s:2:\"id\";i:298269;s:18:\"submit_button_text\";s:6:\"Submit\";s:14:\"customThankyou\";s:0:\"\";s:21:\"customThankyouHeading\";s:26:\"Your message has been sent\";s:21:\"customThankyouMessage\";s:30:\"Thank you for your submission!\";s:22:\"customThankyouRedirect\";s:0:\"\";s:10:\"jetpackCRM\";b:1;s:9:\"className\";N;s:9:\"postToUrl\";N;s:14:\"salesforceData\";N;s:12:\"hiddenFields\";N;}"],"_uag_css_file_name":["uag-css-298269.css"],"_uag_js_file_name":["uag-js-298269.js"]},"uagb_featured_image_src":{"full":["https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/06\/image-scaled.jpg",1024,1024,true]},"uagb_author_info":{"display_name":"Margaret","author_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/author\/margaret-coylefamilylife-com\/"},"uagb_comment_info":0,"uagb_excerpt":"Jimmy Needham wrote a book to help kids understand that they need a savior and that God looks beyond appearances. He and his wife, Kelly, tell us more!","meta_box":{"show_notes":"<ul>\n<li>Connect with Jimmy &amp; Kelly Needham at their <a href=\"https:\/\/www.jimmyandkelly.com\/\">website<\/a>!<\/li>\n<li>Get your copy of \"<a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product\/real-bad-guys-a-story-about-good-vs-bad-and-the-way-god-sees-it\">Real Bad Guys: A Story About Good vs. Bad and the Way God Sees It<\/a>\" in our shop.<\/li>\n<li>Find <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/guest\/jimmy-needham\/\">Jimmy<\/a> &amp; <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/guest\/kelly-needham\/\">Kelly<\/a> on previous episodes of FamilyLife Today.<\/li>\n<li>Join us aboard the <a href=\"https:\/\/www.lovelikeyoumeanitcruise.com\/\">Love Like You Mean It Marriage Cruise<\/a> from February 8-15 for an exclusive journey dedicated to strengthening your marriage.<\/li>\n<li>Find resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/past-radio-resources\/\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Find more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<\/li>\n<li>Help others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Check out all the FamilyLife's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2024-09-20.pdf","transcript_content":"<p>FamilyLife Today\u00ae National Radio Version (time edited) Transcript<\/p>\n<p>References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete.<\/p>\n<p>Real Bad Guys<\/p>\n<p>Guests:Jimmy and Kelly Needham<\/p>\n<p>From the series:Real Bad Guys (Day 1 of 1)<\/p>\n<p>Air date:September 20, 2024<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: I don't want my children to grow up with an impression of, \u201cI'm basically good. Jesus is really more for those folks. I have got to wait until my life falls apart for the cross to make sense to me.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: If that's how you're thinking about Christianity, you're actually missing it.<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: This is FamilyLife Today!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: So, I'm looking at a children's book.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I love children's books\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014I know you do. You're the best!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014because we read all the time as our kids were growing up.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Well, I'm going to read the first page.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Oh, you are? [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Well, I'm not going to do a voice or anything\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014okay.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014but I'm going to\u2014I mean, I remember when I got the PDF, and I loved it from the start! It says, \u201cI sure hope you're wearing a belt, because you're about to get the pants scared right off you! Get ready, because I've got a story about some real bad guys.\u201d [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>I know I didn't do a good job reading it.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: Sucked us right in!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: It did!<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: Yes, that\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Well, we've got the author right here\u2014Jimmy Needham, sitting there with his wife Kelly. And have you ever written a children's book before?<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: This is my first kids\u2019 book to write, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Why? Why?<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: But can I out you, though, that you have sketched out kids\u2019 books before?<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: I have.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Oh.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: It has been an interest of yours since the day I knew you.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Well, you have 5 kids.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: I'm eleven years old in my insides. [Laughter] So, yes, that's right.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Which is interesting, Jimmy, because you're a seminary student; you're a pastor; you're a recording artist.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: You kind of have your hands on a lot of different things.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: But why a children's book?<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: I love deep theology. I love\u2014like you said, I'm in seminary; I'm doing all that; I love that. But I'm also ridiculous. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Is this true? Kelly's [nodding] her head.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: 100%, this is true.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: What do you mean, ridiculous? Why are you shaking your head?<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: Go watch our podcast, and you will find out very quickly. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I've watched it. It's fun to watch.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: I just love\u2014I love to play.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: Yes, it is true.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: I love fun. It's actually been such a great outlet for me, writing this book, because it does allow me to scratch all of my theological itches [Laughter] while also being as absurd as I want to be, and nobody tells me I can't.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: So, it was fun to explore that side of things and [say], \u201cOh, I can have a pirate with hooks on his hands and feet, [Laughter] and I can talk about, you know\u2014\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: \u2014which has really been a long-time dream of yours, to combine your love of humor and silliness\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: \u2014yes.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: \u2014with deep, meaningful theology. Jimmy: I know!<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: It really has been something.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: \u2014t's an odd pairing, people, [Laughter] \u2014<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: \u2014yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: \u2014but we're going to see if it works.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: It works! I'm telling you right now.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I laughed out loud at the pirate with this\u2014not just one hook\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: \u2014yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014but it's two hooks, and then Henry\u2019s feet, too! [Laughter] \u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: Two on his feet; he's got four hooks. [Laughter] It's unfortunate, but you know, \u2018tis a pirate\u2019s life. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, and it's interesting to hear your back story on it because, when I'm reading it, I'm laughing\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014because your humor comes in. There are these little clips.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You're [wondering], \u201cWhere am I going?\u201d But the theology's rich!<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: Yes. Thank you.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Kids are going to pick up both, and the graphics!<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Your artist is phenomenal!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: The illustrator did a great job.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: He did.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I have got to be honest: when I got it, I [thought], \u201cUgh, a kids\u2019 book.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Not me.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And then I\u2019m like, \u201cOh my goodness!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: Yes,<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u201cThis is not like every kids\u2019 book.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: It's different.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: It\u2019s going to grab you.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: It's a different sort of take on things, which has been really fun for me. I love different.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: So, talk about Real Bad Guys.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: What's the theology?<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: I'm a parent, so I'm constantly in conversations about really important things with my kiddos, you know?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Who range from\u20145 kids; between the ages of 1 and 13.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: One and 13.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: So, you\u2019ve got a range.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: I'm in all the conversations!<\/p>\n<p>Dave and Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: That\u2019s right!<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: And I\u2019m just hitting all of it. This particular book started\u2014there was a conversation I remember having with one of my daughters. We were watching something\u2014it was like a news broadcast or something\u2014and the story was about a criminal. He'd done something bad, and the police were looking for him, or whatever. And, you know, you've got the folks on screen; you have the officer of the case and all that. I remember her pointing to the suspect and saying something like, \u201cDad is that the bad guy?\u201d She was trying to sort out who the characters are in this story.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: \u201cWho am I supposed\u201d\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014that\u2019s true! Kids always distinguish, \u201cWho is the good guy?\u201d\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: \u2014that\u2019s right!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014\"Who is the bad guy?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: \u201cWho am I rooting for?\u201d\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014yes!<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: \u2014\u201cWho would I want to lose?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Right.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: That whole thing. And she\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: \u2014they ask about it in movies.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: Of course!<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: Right?<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: Yes: \u201cI need to know who's on the naughty list.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And they say \u201cbad guy\u201d a lot.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: They do!<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: I know!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u201cWho\u2019s the bad guy?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: \u201cWho\u2019s the bad guy?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: So, she [asks], \u201cWho's the\u2014is that the bad guy?\u201d And I felt, immediately, a couple of things in me. The first was,\u201d I know what you're trying to do. You're trying to sort out the characters,\u201d\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: \u2014but also, as a Christian, I know that the answer\u2019s more complex\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: \u2014than just, \u201cHe's the bad guy,\u201d because my Bible reveals that he's the bad guy and everybody else on that screen is the bad guy; [Laughter] and I'm the bad\u2014and you, asking the question, you're the\u2014because all of us, at our core, we all have sinned. We've all rejected God. Apart from Christ, we're all the bad guy.<\/p>\n<p>But how do I say this to an 8-year-old? [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: How do I make that make sense to her? Something that's really important\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: \u2014that she needs to know, but\u2014and that I don't just want to gloss over with, \u201cOh yes, that's the bad guy.\u201d Because when you do that, you're reinforcing all the stereotypes. It's like, \u201cOh, the scary-looking people\u2014the people who do the outwardly criminal things; those are the people who are bad and therefore, those are the people who need a savior. But what about my sweet daughter who is at the top of her class in school; who keeps all the rules; who is nice and obedient? Will she ever be able to see her need for a savior if she doesn't realize she's on that same list as the guy on the screen?<\/p>\n<p>So, that's what started this book for me was going, \u201cI want to be able to help you sense that we all need the same Savior,\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: So, that was kind of the genesis of this story.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Really good. Did you read the book? I know that you've read the book to the kids. What did they think?<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: They love it, thank the Lord, [Laughter] because that's my target audience. So, yes. And the main character, Millie: she's sort of based on my second oldest daughter.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Awe.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: I thought, as I was starting to daydream about this, I thought, \u201cWell, how do you talk about this in a way that'd be interesting for kids?\u201d The first thought that occurred to me was, \u201cIt would be really funny if all the stereotypical bad guys that we think about would be on that screen. What if they came to life and corrected her theology? What if she was getting it wrong like my daughter was? What if the nefarious fellas were the ones who\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: \u2014teaching her right theology.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: \u2014teaching her right theology?\u201d So, that's what happened. I wrote a story, [and] it's got a gangster, and a pirate, and a robber, and a mad scientist, and draculas in it. The book begins just like you read a second ago, where she's\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014but you need to read it.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: \u2014Why?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Well, I was going to say, \u201cAt least you have Dracula.\u201d Like, when I first saw that: \u201cOh, there's a Dracula.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Would parents have a pushback to that?<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: Sure.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: He's not scary\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: \u2014no.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014in a like, \u201cOh, I don't want to look\u201d kind of way.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: No.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: He's kind of funny.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: Yes. There's really nothing scary about the book and that's kind of the funny thing about it.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: All these guys who you should be terrified by are actually sweet goofballs [Laughter] who actually have some really robust theology, [Laughter] so it turns out.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, they're good.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I have to hear like you probably have an accent\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: \u2014yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014when you read it to your kids.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Can you read a page or two?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Kelly, who's his best accent of these characters?<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: Oh, don\u2019t just\u2014 [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: \u2014Oh, I love the mad scientist.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: Yes. I\u2019m trying to see\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: \u2014That\u2019s a favorite of mine.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: \u2014if I can pull this up. Oh, here we go. So, she's introducing her bad guys.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Okay, he's getting into character.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: Yes. She's introducing her bad guys and Millie goes, \u201cMeet the wicked Captain Hooks!\u201d (Right, this is Millie talking.) \u201cThat's right! Plural. You think having one hook on your hand is freaky? How about having them on both hands?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>And then he goes, \u201cYes, and two on me feet. It'd be a hardship, but \u2018tis a Pirate\u2019s life.\u201d [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>And it's ridiculous.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Wow. Wow.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: It's ridiculous.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Are you going to put this on Audible?<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: We're actually making a whole video of me reading the book in all the characters with all the costumes. [Laughter] Yes, to just get to folks\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014wait! You're going to wear costumes?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014You\u2019re going to wear the character?<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: \u2014I\u2019ve already bought them all\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: \u2014oh, they're already in the house.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014what?<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: I've seen them all. It\u2019s wonderful.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: It was my favorite trip to Amazon Online. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Really?<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: Man, I just went nuts.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Who's the mad scientist? He doesn't seem like he'd be a bad guy, but he is.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: He is a bad guy. Yes. Well, you know, it's sort of that classic guy scheming with his poisons in a laboratory, but he's actually the one who introduces this whole topic to Millie of, \u201cHey, what if being bad isn't really how you thought? What if God looks more at the inside than the outside?\u201d That's really\u2014the punch line of the book is: the way I distinguish it is to talk about \u201coutside bad\u201d versus \u201cinside bad.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Right.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: You know that\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014which was genius to me.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: \u2014anyone can see that\u2014 it's easy for me to spot: like, you're holding an axe [Laughter] when you're running around like a mad person, like, \u201cYes, that guy is probably bad.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>What about a sweet-looking innocent girl? Or what about\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: \u2014God sees past that.<\/p>\n<p>So, at one point, they bring out\u2014they say, \u201cBring out the X-ray machine!\u201d (That's the mad scientist.) They put it in front of her and they [say], \u201cHey, look at these two guys!\u201d They bring out an inmate, and then actually, the little Easter egg in this book is the other person standing next to the inmate is me that the artist drew into the book. I look like a normal guy, and the inmates in the black and white stripes [are] looking like \u201ca bad guy\u201d.<\/p>\n<p>Then we turn on the X-ray but what do you see inside? It's all thoughts about me, wanting me to be glorified; \u201cI'm more important than God,\u201d \u2014 all of that. It's an ugly truth, but it's the truth that the Bible reveals about what all of our hearts look like.<\/p>\n<p>When Millie realizes it, she goes, \u201cSo, I guess we're all bad guys then,\u201d and she's lamenting, \u201cI guess there's no hope.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I think the gangster says, \u201cWell, not all of us are bad.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Wait! You have to say it like the gangster. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: [In gangster voice] \u201cWell, we're not all bad, Missy.\u201d [Laughter] What she discovers is: we are all bad but there has been only one real \u201cGood Guy\u201d, and He died in our place. And He died so that God would treat us like \u201creal good guys\u201d even though we aren't.<\/p>\n<p>If I have one concern\u2014I feel this is a pastor and I feel this as a parent to kids\u2014is not that these people are going to go off and live wild lives. My biggest concern is that they're going to live basically good lives\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: \u2014and convince themselves that they don't need a Savior.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: And that they\u2019re okay: \u201cI'm basically a good person.\u201d It's like this is how the Pharisees saw themselves and those were the people that our Lord had the harshest words for. I don't want my children to grow up with an impression of, \u201cI'm basically good. Jesus is really more for those folks. I have got to wait till my life falls apart for the cross to make sense to me.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: If that's how you're thinking about Christianity, you're actually missing it.<\/p>\n<p>I wrote this because I don't want to make little Pharisees. I want everyone to see their deep need for a Savior. It's amazing when you see that: not only does the cross become beautiful to you, but we become people who stop looking down our nose at other people too, because we realize, just like all these \u201cbad guys\u201d in the book, \u201cI'm on the same plane as you. We need the same mercy from God.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Man, I so want that for my kids and for any child to read that.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You're right. There's a part of us that thinks, \u201cIf you put the X-ray machine on me, \u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: \u2014yes, \u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014my insides\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: \u2014you won\u2019t see that much stuff.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014compared to this dude, \u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: \u2014sure.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014I'm better.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>But I love how you wrote, \u201cJesus was duh only person;\u201d (not the) \u201cJesus, was duh only person who was good on da outside and on da inside.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: What a turn in this book for a 5-year-old, 10-year-old, 15-year-old, to go, \u2014<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: \u2014yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: \u2014that\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014 \u201cWhat do you mean by that?\u201d The Gospel just jumps off the page.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Well, I also like how you take Millie on a journey of her discovering the things\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: \u2014that\u2019s right!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014that she has done.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Walk us through a couple of those. Do you remember some of her discoveries?<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: Yes. So, those might be the most important pages of the book. She's [thinking], \u201cOh, okay. So, like when I buy gifts for my friends and give it to them but I'm only doing it so that they'll give me a gift later.\u201d It's like, \u201cOkay, is the giving of a gift a bad thing?\u201d No. Anybody would look at that and they would say, \u201cGood for you. That's amazing!\u201d But what's happening on the inside of her? She's doing it because she wants herself to be celebrated.<\/p>\n<p>Or, when I sing loud at church, but only so other people would hear me and tell me how good [of] a singer I am. It's like if you saw somebody's just pouring their heart out and worship on a Sunday morning, you'd go, \u201cBe more like that person.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave and Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: But we don't know what's happening in the heart.<\/p>\n<p>Again, I want to expose the readers to a new category of you can be doing the right things. Again, the Pharisees did so many of the right things.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Right.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: They prayed the prayers; they gave tithes of all that they got. Remember the Pharisee and the tax collector story, right? \u201cI fast twice a week. I give tithes.\u201d But he was not justified before God because he was doing it for himself.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: Well, I think the temptation as parents is to actually affirm this goodness in our kids. There's, I think, a strong temptation when our kids come to us: \u201cBut no, you're good. No, you're doing great. No, I'm\u2014.\" And we should be celebrating them; that's part of our role as parents to be encouragers\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: \u2014that\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: \u2014to celebrate the wins. But as Christian parents, it's also our job to evangelize our kids. They do not come out [of] the womb saved. [Laughter] They don't, and we all know that. But the first part of the Gospel narrative is this piece we're talking about; that you wrote about. It's: \u201cYou need to see your need, and that starts with seeing motive.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>For most of our kids, it's going to start with motive. They're probably not going to be the kids\u2014if you're listening to this program, they're probably not the kids who are doing outward bad things. You're probably training them well; they're probably moral; they're probably learning those things, but they still need to see: \u201cI'm motivated by self.\u201d And seeing that in every action is what's going to lead them to the cross.<\/p>\n<p>And you, being able to admit as a parent: \u201cMe too. I'm only seeing change in that motive because I'm going to Jesus, not because I'm trying harder.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: One of the things I've been intrigued\u2014it's different being a grandparent because I'm observing\u2014I think in parenting, you're just in it so much.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: In grandparenting, you're observing sometimes, like, \u201cOh, that's so interesting,\u201d because sometimes when I'm with them, they like to hear stories where I have failed\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: \u2014yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014or I have sinned. Like, \u201cWhat did you do?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: Yes, sure.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And so, I realized, it's good for me to share my weaknesses\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: \u2014yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014and how I have sinned and what I have done with it. Why do you guys think that is with your five kids when you have failed?<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: Well\u2014and you're right! Our kids like the same thing.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: They do?<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: They do, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: Yes, yes. I think it reminds them [that] you're human. Now you're relatable.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: That\u2019s right, \u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014yes.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: \u2014yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: Now, you're not some unachievable standard that it's like, \u201cWell, [I\u2019ll] never be like Mom and Dad. I might as well abandon the whole project.\u201d [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>It's like\u2014one thing we try to do a lot with our kids, (and we have plenty of opportunities to because we're sinners) is just repent to them a lot.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: Like the other day\u20142 days ago, I was with my son, and he had done something or other, and I was so angry in my moment of disciplining him. I was able to control myself, but not to the degree I liked. So, I came back to him that night and I just owned it. I was like, \u201cI was disciplining you out of anger and I think that was unkind to you. It didn't please the Lord. I'm sorry. I hope you can forgive me.\u201d He's five, but I want him to have a ton of memories\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: \u2014yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: \u2014of his dad\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave and Ann: \u2014yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: \u2014being able to go: \u201cI failed. I am not perfect. There's only one real Good Guy. It's Jesus. It's not me.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>If that's one of the takeaways he has when he's 18, leaving the house; it's like: \u201cMy dad repented a lot to me.\u201d It's like, \u201cWell, I'm really happy for that, you know?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: That's big.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: Well, and you're showing them the way into the Kingdom when you do that, because that's how we come to Jesus, in repentance and faith. But if they've never seen anybody repent\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014yes.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: \u2014they don't know what that looks like. It's just words.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And I think too, as a parent, I did that a lot. But I would continue to beat myself up. It's almost like the Gospel had no effect: where I repented before Jesus; I apologized to my kids; went to them and owned it. But then I would continue this barrage of: \u201cYou are failing. \u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: \u2014yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014You're a bad parent.\u201d And that's when the enemy can kind of slip in\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy and Kelly: \u2014yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014but it's the beauty of the Gospel. Receive it!<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: Yes!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: The price has been paid for us and we can rest in that. And I'll say this: \u201cMy kids remember the repentance\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy and Kelly: \u2014yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014more than what I actually did.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy and Kelly: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I prayed that too: \u201cLord, let them forget [Laughter] all the ways I messed up, Jesus. There\u2019s so many.\u201d And they do a lot of times.<\/p>\n<p>So, I would say, \u201cReceive His grace\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: \u2014yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014as a parent. Make sure you apologize. Talk to Jesus about it. Tell Him the truth. Figure out what's going on in your heart. But man, give yourself grace because He does.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: Yes. That's right.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: He does, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And I love at the end you have conversation starters\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014Me too!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014so you literally give parents some questions that say, \u201cOkay\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: \u2014a little bit of fodder for\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014yes, \u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: \u2014for discussion. \u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014and they're good. I mean, you're going to have a pretty deep conversation\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: \u2014yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014with a three, or five, or eight-year-old, \u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014Let's ask a question.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014if you do that.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Did you see one that you want to talk about?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes. In the story, Millie learns about \u201coutside bad\u201d and \u201cinside bad\u201d. What do these terms mean? How are they different from each other?<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I mean, you're digging into [Laughter] the depravity of sin. \u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: \u2014yes, we talked about that in seminary.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014yes.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: When we've had that conversation a little bit with our own kids, and it's interesting that within our five children, there are some that are more outside bad kids, [Laughter] right? \u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave and Ann: \u2014yes.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: \u2014And some that are more inside bad kids.<\/p>\n<p>Dave and Ann: Yes<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: So, we've got a few of them that are really good at following the rules but are really manipulative. So, it's like they can follow Mom and Dad's rules and kind of stay in line and not get as many of those discipline moments.<\/p>\n<p>And then there are others who are just wild and fearless and, \u201cI'm just going to do what I want.\u201d The ones who are more obedient on the outside can tend to have this pride about it.<\/p>\n<p>So, we've had really good conversations\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: \u2014yes, we have.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: \u2014with some of our kids, trying to help them see: \u201cInside bad isn't always breaking the rules.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: It's why you're doing what you\u2019re doing. \u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: \u2014It's why you keep the rules.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014oh!<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: \u2014Why you keep the rules; that you're actually the same as this sibling of yours who you kind of look down your nose at. It's like, \u201cYes, they have outside bad; it's different.\u201d We can recognize it's different.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: You have a question that goes along with that. I'm thinking, \u201cThis would be so fun to have kids and talk about these questions.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: You can probably only do one question at the dinner table.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: That\u2019s right, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: Right.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: But one question even for a night. Here's one of the questions: \u201cIt can be tempting\u201d (this is what you're talking about) \u201cto look down on others who have more outside bad than us, like kids who get in trouble at school, or siblings who might not obey Mom and Dad as well as you. How can seeing your own inside bad change how you treat other people?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Guys, that's just deep!<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: We could ask that every day in our marriage. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I was just going to say that's not just parenting.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy and Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: That's a marriage thing\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy and Ann: \u2014yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014because we do the same thing in marriage. When you said, \u201cSome of your kids are better inside\/ outside, I thought, \u201cWhat's Jimmy?\u201d [Laughter] Is he better outside bad or inside bad because I'm\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: \u2014I've got it all. I tried to do both. [Laughter] I tried to get a little bit of outside; a little bit of inside. We just keep it\u2014yes, that's right.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I tend to be a rebel, so I'm more outside\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: \u2014I was going to say I\u2014 definitely coming into marriage\u2014I was the \u201cI'm the Inside Bad person. You [Jimmy] were the\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: \u2014yes.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: \u2014Outside [Bad Person],\u201d [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes, that was Dave and I too, for sure.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: Well, what's interesting\u2014and I think this is related to this conversation\u2014[Jimmy] you've had such a big effect on me in a positive way that as my pride was being exposed in some areas of my life; some spiritual pride, especially early on in our marriage, I felt so distraught. This picture I had of myself as this good Christian woman is getting destroyed and I'm grieving that.<\/p>\n<p>I remember talking to you about it one day and going, \u201cI thought the water in my glass was clean and now it's all dirty. I'm so sad.\u201d And your response to me at one point was, \u201cWell, my glass fell over, and all the water poured out a long time ago. [Laughter] That's why I'm okay with it;\u201d because I think I was asking for advice like, \u201cHow do I deal this?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>But really, at an early age in your life, and then throughout\u2014the way that God saved you; your own personal testimony and story; you've been so thoroughly convinced of your badness from the moment I met you that it's actually helped you understand the Gospel more, receive it more, and live it out more than I was able to as a church kid who had all the rule-following together.<\/p>\n<p>So, I'm excited about this book because it's Christian parents who are going to buy it, and those are the kids who need that truth\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave and Ann: \u2014yes.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: \u2014because it will set them free. It's very counterintuitive to tell their kids they're bad\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave and Ann: \u2014yes.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: \u2014 to set them free but it will produce more lasting freedom.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: I've seen that in you, and it's really changed me as well.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And it's written in such a fun, compelling, draws-everybody-in, \u2014<\/p>\n<p>Kelly: \u2014yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014well done! We're always looking for great children's books, and when they're deeper in theology, whoo! That is a bonus!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, that is good.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: The thing I love about you guys is you're such fans of each other.<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: I'm a big fan of this girl right here.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I can tell\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Jimmy: \u2014big fan.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014both ways. Well done!<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: One of the defining things in my life lately has been the grace that God has given me to see myself not as a good person, but a bad person who needs to be set free from my badness. And it's been grace that God has given me to see that. I love this, and I love, like Kelly said, the counter-intuitiveness of telling your kids that they're bad. It doesn't sound very much like what we communicate in our culture today, but this could be the very thing that sets them free.<\/p>\n<p>I'm Shelby Abbott, and you've been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson with Jimmy and Kelly Needham on FamilyLife Today. Jimmy has written a book called Real Bad Guys: A Story about Good vs Bad and the Way God Sees It. You can get your copy right now, of Jimmy\u2019s book, by going online to FamilyLifeToday.com or clicking on the link in the show notes. Or feel free to give us a call at 800-358-6329 to request your copy. Again, that number is 800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Even though it's mid-September, the truth is, February is just around the corner. Why am I telling you about February right now? Well, [on] February 8th, we are setting sail for the Love Like You Mean It \u00ae Marriage Cruise. That's right! It goes from February 8th through the 15th, where you can join a community of like-minded couples and really entrench yourself in a journey designed to rejuvenate your marriage, but, more importantly, draw you closer to Christ.<\/p>\n<p>There are limited spaces still available, but they are limited, so head over to FamilyLifeToday.com and click on the Love Like You Mean It Marriage Cruise banner. There, you can secure your reservation and get ready to embark on a week of relaxation, renewal, and romance. Again, you can head over to FamilyLifeToday.com. Just click on the Love Like You Mean It Marriage Cruise banner.<\/p>\n<p>So, as we approach the end of September, it might be weird to think about it, but Halloween is coming up soon, and depending on how you think about that, it can be a great opportunity to reach your neighbors and your neighborhood for Christ. Well, Jimmy and Kelly Needham have some advice to help you with that, based on a few things that they have done. You can watch a video about that, read an article, and download a specific playbook that they've developed. You can head over to FamilyLifeToday.com or click on the link in the show notes to get all those resources.<\/p>\n<p>Now, coming up next week, if you couldn't join us for the last Love Like You Mean It Marriage Cruise, don't worry. Brian and Stephanie Carter are going to be here to talk about their insights on building and restoring trust in your marriage. It's a message from the Love Like You Mean It Marriage Cruise last year. That's coming up next week. We hope you'll join us.<\/p>\n<p>On behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Shelby Abbott. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>FamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry.<\/p>\n<p>Helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.<\/p>\n<p>We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright \u00a9 2024 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.<\/p>\n<p>www.FamilyLife<\/p>\n","theme_header_position":"Sticky","post_header_is_sticky":"default","is_header_overlay":"0"},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/298269","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/47000"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=298269"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/280865"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=298269"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=298269"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=298269"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=298269"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=298269"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=298269"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}