{"id":295511,"date":"2024-09-16T08:00:00","date_gmt":"2024-09-16T09:00:21","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/dave-ann-discuss-tim-keller-on-marriage\/"},"modified":"2025-06-10T15:05:28","modified_gmt":"2025-06-10T19:05:28","slug":"dave-ann-discuss-tim-keller-on-marriage","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/dave-ann-discuss-tim-keller-on-marriage\/","title":{"rendered":"Dave &#038; Ann Discuss: Tim Keller on Marriage"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>Did you know that marriage has power? Join Dave and Ann Wilson as they discuss concepts from Tim Keller on marriage and the powerful ways it can lead to mutual growth and Christlikeness!<\/p>\n<p>\u00a0<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Did you know that marriage has power? Dave and Ann discuss Tim Keller on marriage and the powerful ways it can lead to mutual growth and Christlikeness!<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":47000,"featured_media":280865,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"audio","audio_file":"https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/6ba1f4cc-4f2d-49e5-9c57-b1dc01334a11\/audio.mp3","podmotor_file_id":"","podmotor_episode_id":"","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:26:36","filesize":"24.39M","filesize_raw":"","date_recorded":"2024-09-16 08:00:00","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2805],"tags":[],"podcast_series":[],"cwp_profile":[3647],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-295511","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-gods-plan-for-marriage","cwp_profile-dave-and-ann-wilson","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/06\/image-scaled.jpg?w=1024","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/295511\/dave-ann-discuss-tim-keller-on-marriage","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/295511\/dave-ann-discuss-tim-keller-on-marriage","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"uIG2W1z5oX\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/dave-ann-discuss-tim-keller-on-marriage\/\">Dave &#038; Ann Discuss: Tim Keller on Marriage<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/dave-ann-discuss-tim-keller-on-marriage\/embed\/#?secret=uIG2W1z5oX\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Dave &#038; Ann Discuss: Tim Keller on Marriage&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"uIG2W1z5oX\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"uagb_featured_image_src":{"full":["https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/06\/image-scaled.jpg",1024,1024,true]},"uagb_author_info":{"display_name":"Margaret","author_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/author\/margaret-coylefamilylife-com\/"},"uagb_comment_info":0,"uagb_excerpt":"Did you know that marriage has power? Dave and Ann discuss Tim Keller on marriage and the powerful ways it can lead to mutual growth and Christlikeness!","meta_box":{"show_notes":"<ul>\n<li>Get your copy of \"<a href=\"https:\/\/timothykeller.com\/books\/the-meaning-of-marriage\">The Meaning of Marriage<\/a>\" by Tim and Kathy Keller wherever books are sold<\/li>\n<li>Grab Dave and Ann Wilson's book, <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product\/vertical-marriage-the-one-secret-that-will-change-your-marriage-2\/\">Vertical Marriage<\/a>, at our shop.<\/li>\n<li>Don't miss out on our biggest sale of the season! <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/weekend-to-remember\/\">Weekend to Remember registrations are half price until September 16th<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Find resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/past-radio-resources\/\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Find more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<\/li>\n<li>Help others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Check out all the FamilyLife's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2024-09-16.pdf","transcript_content":"<p>FamilyLife Today\u00ae National Radio Version (time edited) Transcript<\/p>\n<p>References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete.<\/p>\n<p>Dave and Ann Discuss: Tim Keller on Marriage<\/p>\n<p>Guest:None<\/p>\n<p>From the series:Dave and Ann Discuss: Tim Keller on Marriage (Day 1 of 1)<\/p>\n<p>Air date:September 16, 2024<\/p>\n<p>Ann: We all have those situations where we want to hold on to hurts, and how our spouse has let us down, or they haven\u2019t been there; or you feel betrayed, or you feel forgotten; you feel alone; you feel unseen. All of us have those situations, and God is saying, \u201cTake your eyes off of them, and forgive them.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I\u2019m Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com.<\/p>\n<p>This is FamilyLife Today!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: So, today is: lessons we learned from the best marriage book we\u2019ve ever read.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Honestly, it\u2019s the best one, I think.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: If you think we\u2019re going to say our marriage book, Vertical Marriage, [Laughter] no! It\u2019s not ours. It\u2019s Timothy Keller\u2019s The Meaning of Marriage. It came out in 2011. I\u2019m not kidding! If you haven\u2019t read this book, we\u2019re going to just give you a plug right now: you need to!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I think I had the whole book underlined, basically. [Laughter] There are so many rich things in it.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: We have no guests in the studio. We\u2019re talking straight to you, the listener, to say, one of the things we remember that Tim taught us, from The Meaning of Marriage book, is the \u201cthree powers of marriage.\u201d It\u2019s based on this idea that, when you get married, you really don\u2019t know who you\u2019re married to. [Laughter] I mean, you think you do, but you change over the years.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Totally!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: In fact, there\u2019s a quote, at the beginning of this chapter, by Stanley Haurwas. It says this: \u201cWe never know who we marry. We just think we do. For even if we first marry the right person, just give it a while, and he or she will change. For marriage, being the enormous thing it is, means we are not the same person after we have entered it. The primary challenge of marriage is learning how to love and care for the stranger to whom you find yourself married.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>So, the question is: how do you love the stranger you find yourself with?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: That\u2019s sort of what Tim and Kathy Keller, who wrote this book sort of entered into. They talk about the \u201cthree powers\u201d that come with this thing called marriage.<\/p>\n<p>As I think about one of my favorite passages for me as a husband, [it] is Ephesians 5:25, where Paul commands husbands to \u201clove your wives as Christ loves the Church.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I love this Scripture, too! [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Every wife does! And every husband (and wife) would ask: \u201cWhat does that look like? How do I love her\u2014how do I love him\u2014as Christ loved the Church?\u201d It\u2019s easy to quote; I can memorize it; but how do I do it?<\/p>\n<p>So, here\u2019s what we\u2019re going to talk about: the three powers of love. The first one is the power of truth. The idea here is that God brings you together in this relationship, that\u2019s closer than any other relationship, called marriage. You\u2019re together 24\/7. You see all the greatness; you see all the ugliness. [Laughter] The problem is you only saw some of the good before, but after, it\u2019s like, \u201cOh, my goodness! I didn\u2019t even know this person.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I remember\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014that\u2019s why you think you\u2019re sort of married to a stranger.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I remember reading this one author who talks about marriage as being like a costume ball. There comes a midnight hour when everyone has to throw off his mask. Then he says, \u201cWelcome to marriage!\u201d There\u2019s a truth to that.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, and Keller talks about the Mac truck illustration that you\u2019ve talked about many times.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Oh! This is one of my favorite\u2014I remember reading this in the book, and putting the book down and thinking, \u201cThis is the truth.\u201d He talks about how marriage is like a bridge. Before you were married, or maybe [in] some of those first years of marriage, we just walk over the bridge. We stroll over the bridge. The bridge is perfectly built; it looks stable. There are no flaws in the bridge. But then, you put a five-and-a-half-ton Mac truck, which is the pressures of life, kids, job loss, money problems\u2014you put some pressures on that marriage (that bridge), and suddenly, the cracks in the bridge are exposed.<\/p>\n<p>I remember, in the early years, we had a fight. I was going crazy, yelling; and I thought, \u201cThis is what you\u2019ve made me become! I\u2019m this crazy person now, who\u2019s yelling. I\u2019ve never yelled in my life! You have made me like this!\u201d But the truth is, according to that illustration, the pressure of our marriage was revealing that I have cracks in myself. God wants to do something with those and heal them.<\/p>\n<p>The question is: could He use our marriage, and even the stress of marriage, to help point us to Him?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: That\u2019s exactly what marriage does. It has the power of truth. [Laughter] The truth comes out. It\u2019s like marriage is this\u2014and we love this, but we hate this; it\u2019s this\u2014institution that reveals what\u2019s there.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You may be able to cover it up, but once you\u2019re married, it\u2019s uncovered. You can\u2019t cover it up! It just comes out.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019ll read you a quote that Tim wrote in this chapter; he says it this way: \u201cMarriage by its very nature has the power of truth; the power to show you the truth about who you are. People are appalled when they get sharp, far-reaching criticisms from their spouse. They immediately begin to think they married the wrong person. But you must realize that it isn\u2019t, ultimately, your spouse who is exposing the sinfulness of your heart. It\u2019s marriage itself. Marriage does not so much bring you into confrontation with your spouse as confront you with yourself. Marriage shows you a realistic, unflattering picture of who you are, and it takes you by the scruff of the neck and forces you to pay attention to it.\u201d [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>I hate that!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Me, too.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And yet, it\u2019s so good! Honestly, in the chapter before, Tim makes the point that one of the goals of marriage\u2014like the mission of marriage\u2014is God wants you to be friends, and in that friendship, to sharpen one another to become like Jesus. That\u2019s our goal in life: to be like Him.<\/p>\n<p>We won\u2019t be perfectly like Him until glory! Tim calls it \u201cuntil we reach our glory selves.\u201d But between now and then, it\u2019s a fixer-upper project. [Laughter] God has given you a spouse who can see things that you may have been able to hide from others, and she (or he) will call things out. You can get mad and be appalled as he says in this quote, or you can say, \u201cThis is a gift I\u2019m getting. I can become better. I can become more like Christ if I\u2019ll deal with this unflattering picture of who I really am!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Well, let me ask you: has anything changed you as much as our marriage has?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: No!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yet, we are better because of it.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I mean, go back to Ephesians 4:15, which is a verse we\u2019ve taught many times, here, even, at FamilyLife Today. It says, \u201cInstead, speaking the truth in love, we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of Him who is the Head, that is Christ.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>One of the things we miss in this passage\u2014because we always talk about \u201cspeak the truth in love,\u201d and marriage is an institution where you can speak the truth, and it needs to be with grace and love; but what I think we don\u2019t realize\u2014is he says, \u201cIf you want to mature in Christ, how do you get there? Speak the truth in love! Receive the truth in love.\u201d You don\u2019t become mature in Christ without hearing and speaking truth!<\/p>\n<p>When we first got married, I had no idea (until we got married) that I ran from conflict. [Laughter] Again, we\u2019re not going to tell the story about you yelling at me and saying, \u201cGet back here and fight me like a man, you big chicken!\u201d [Laughter] When I literally walked out of the room when we were having a conflict. Many have heard that in our Vertical Marriage book.<\/p>\n<p>But here\u2019s the truth: I was a withdrawer when it came to conflict. Some of it is the home I grew up in, watching abuse, adultery, and divorce, and thinking, \u201cConflict is bad;\u201d but you and marriage itself forced me\u2014it\u2019s the power of truth\u2014to realize, \u201cThis is not a good thing. I need to learn to mature and to stand in the room and say, \u2018Okay, we need to talk.\u2019\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Think about what I said: \u201cCome back here and fight me like a man, you chicken!\u201d It shows you where I\u2019m coming from in my family, where we used our words as weapons. That\u2019s never healthy! So, for both of us, we\u2019ve gone through a transformational process of Jesus changing us, because we become mirrors to one another.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, and I think truth is hard, but it\u2019s very, very need.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Let\u2019s give, after each point, an application.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I was going to ask you that: what would an application be for the power of truth? My first thought is, \u201cDon\u2019t be a sermonator.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes; that\u2019s what I was.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: We can come in with a gun, almost, and just blast our spouse away, because we see things. You\u2019ve got to really sit, pause, pray, and say, \u201cOkay, there\u2019s some truth I need to share with my spouse.\u201d First of all, look in the mirror and realize: there\u2019s truth you need to receive from your spouse. But when it comes to the time to speak the power of truth, do it gently; do it honestly and accurately. On the other side of it, realize that God is shaping you to become more like Him through the truth that you hear from your spouse. They love you!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: That\u2019s good.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: They\u2019re telling you this to benefit you.<\/p>\n<p>I know you\u2019ve told me things, and I get defensive and mad. I have to come back later and apologize: \u201cI\u2019m sorry I got that way,\u201d because I know you\u2019re trying to help me. And there are times you didn\u2019t say it well or I didn\u2019t say it well; we yelled it or even used sarcasm in an unhealthy way. To speak it gently, but firmly, as the truth\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I think, too, for you, because you withdraw and you don\u2019t necessarily speak the truth, the times that you have, have changed me. They\u2019ve been really beneficial.<\/p>\n<p>For those of you who [find] it really hard to come and speak a truth, pray about that. Ask God how you can present it; but your spouse may really need to hear it. I like it when you do that for me.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes; and I would say, being on the other side (the one that receives the truth), we literally have to ask God to make us humble.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I would encourage you to look at it this way: it\u2019s not just a truth \u201cstab,\u201d it\u2019s a gift. If they\u2019re seeing something\u2014and God has given them eyes to see, because they\u2019re living with you; if they see something\u2014and they speak it, even if they don\u2019t say it perfectly tenderly and packaged in love, it\u2019s a gift.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: It\u2019s going to make you more like Jesus if you\u2019re willing to humbly receive this, and say, \u201cI\u2019ve got to work on this.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Okay! So, that\u2019s the first one of three powers. The first one is the power of truth. The second one is \u201cthe power of love.\u201d And here\u2019s a famous Keller quote (and I bet you\u2019ve heard this quote, but you didn\u2019t know it came from this book, The Meaning of Marriage). He said, \u201cTo be loved, but not known, is comforting, but superficial.\u201d It\u2019s like, \u201cThey don\u2019t really know me!\u201d So, it feels good, but we know, \u201cThey don\u2019t really know me.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Then, he [Keller] goes on to say, \u201cBut to be known and not loved is our greatest fear.\u201d So, we hide, because we\u2019re [thinking], \u201cThey won\u2019t really love me if they know me.\u201d So, they don\u2019t really know me; but our fear is: \u201cIf they knew me, they wouldn\u2019t love me.\u201d Here\u2019s the final quote: \u201cTo be fully known and fully loved is rich and divine. It\u2019s like being loved by God.\u201d Fully loved, fully known. I think that\u2019s the goal of marriage.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Me, too! And I think it\u2019s the fear\u2014that\u2019s where God wants us to go. I think the battle is: Will we go there? Will we understand it?<\/p>\n<p>I like this quote, too\u2014I think this is so true! You\u2019ve done this for me. He says this: \u201cBut now\u201d\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014talking about marriage\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014yes; \u201cBut now, into your life comes someone who has the power to overturn all the accumulated verdicts that have ever been passed upon you by others or by yourself.\u201d Think about that; that power your spouse can have.<\/p>\n<p>\u201cMarriage puts into your spouse\u2019s hand a massive power to reprogram your own self-appreciation. He or she can overturn anything previously said about you, to a great degree redeeming the past. The love and affirmation of your spouse has the power to heal you of many of the deepest wounds. Why? If all the world said you are ugly, but your spouse says you are beautiful, you feel beautiful.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>\u201cAnd to paraphrase a passage of Scripture, your heart may condemn you, but your spouse\u2019s opinion is greater than your heart.\u201d That\u2019s exactly what you\u2019ve done for me. I think of what I thought about myself and what other people had said about me\u2014when you told me, \u201cNo, Ann, this is who you are!\u201d Do you remember, I would say, \u201cNo, I\u2019m not!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u201cNo.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u201cNo, I\u2019m not.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>But the more you said it, it\u2019s like God has given you these words to kind of reprogram some of the lies and the pain of my past. That\u2019s been such a gift, and that\u2019s what marriage can do.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Keller hit it! It\u2019s so powerful that when your spouse loves you unconditionally\u2014which is only possible through the gospel of Jesus; I mean it\u2019s not possible [on your own]; when you feel loved in your weakest, and darkest, and ugliest moments, by your spouse, there\u2019s not a love like that.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Right.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: That\u2019s why it\u2019s called the \u201cpower of love,\u201d because, as he said, the world can say you\u2019re ugly, but your spouse says you\u2019re beautiful. She or he has the power, because they see the ugly better than anybody else, and they still see you as beautiful. It\u2019s the gospel! Jesus sees us in sin and still loves us.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: It\u2019s a reflection, too, of Ephesians 5:1-2, which says, \u201cTherefore, be imitators of God as beloved children, and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up as an offering and a sacrifice to God, as a fragrant aroma.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: What\u2019s that mean?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Just how His love is unconditional. It\u2019s beautiful; and because of that, we are to be imitators of God.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes; we\u2019ve shared it here before, and I won\u2019t go into details, but I remember the night when I said to you, \u201cI\u2019ve been getting critiques on my sermons.\u201d I crawled into bed thinking, \u201cI don\u2019t know if I\u2019m very good. The people in my congregation don\u2019t like me. They don\u2019t think I\u2019m a good preacher.\u201d I had doubts!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I\u2019m so embarrassed, because this was when I was training myself not to say whatever I was thinking. I was thinking, \u201cWell, if you would just spend more time reading God\u2019s Word, your sermons would be way better!\u201d But I didn\u2019t do that. Instead, I went before God and said, \u201cGod, should I say that?\u201d He said, \u201cNo!\u201d Then, I asked, \u201cIs there something I could encourage Dave with?\u201d And the thought came into my mind, and then, I said it: \u201cI can\u2019t imagine what it\u2019s like to be you. You have thousands of people depending on your walk with God. What a heavy thing that must be to carry.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Then, there was silence! Then, you pulled me over, hugged me, and whispered in my ear, \u201cYou are my life.\u201d Man, I\u2019m really glad I didn\u2019t say, \u201cIf you\u2019d just read your Bible more!\u201d [Laughter] I mean, that\u2019s speaking truth, but also in love.\u201d It\u2019s the power of love.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I remember it like it was yesterday, because it felt like, \u201cEverybody else is saying I\u2019m ugly, and you see my ugly; and you still say I\u2019m beautiful.\u201d That\u2019s why\u2014I mean, I didn\u2019t think these words; they just came out of my mouth: \u201cYou are my life.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>It was like, you could call me uglier than anyone, because you see the bad; and you choose to love me.\u201d So, there\u2019s the power of truth, because you\u2019ve spoken truth. I needed to grow. There\u2019s the power of love; and then, the final power\u2014Keller calls it: the \u201cpower of grace.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Let me read you a quote under this section of the book. He says:<\/p>\n<p>\u201cTruth without love ruins the oneness, and love without truth gives the illusion of unity, but actually stops the journey and the growth. The solution is grace. The experience of Jesus\u2019 grace makes it possible to practice the two most important skills in marriage.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Do you know what they are? He says, \u201cThe two most important skills in marriage are forgiveness and repentance. Only if we are very good at forgiving and very good at repenting can truth and love be kept together.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Oooh, that\u2019s good.<\/p>\n<p>And it also reminds me of Ephesians 4:32: \u201cBe kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other just as, in Christ, God forgave you.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I think we all know this. I think it\u2019s the hardest thing to do in marriage\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014me, too.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014and in life! When you\u2019ve really been hurt deeply, to forgive. And it\u2019s a choice! We\u2019ve had to forgive thousands of times.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And I would say, too: if you have that piece of unforgiveness, which then creates bitterness\u2014and I walked in bitterness, it\u2019s an open door, to me, of the enemy. Because now, I\u2019m bitter, and it creates division. It\u2019s like a stronghold of Satan for our family.<\/p>\n<p>So, how do we recommend for people to forgive? To go into repentance and forgiveness?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I mean, it\u2019s a deep, deep journey. I had to forgive my dad after 30-something years of holding bitterness; but it\u2019s also every day, little things\u2014the big ones and the little things. I\u2019ve heard you tell the story of the great repair job I did on our car, with the clutch.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: You know, we\u2019re basically missionaries, so we\u2019re raising our own support. We had two boys, and I was pregnant. Our car had broken down; I had to walk home, and Dave was like, \u201cOh, I can fix that! We don\u2019t need to take it to a dealer to get it fixed.\u201d You were super-proud of yourself. You walked in the house and said, \u201cI fixed your car!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, I put a vice grip on the back of the cable of the clutch.<\/p>\n<p>If anybody knows anything about a clutch, you\u2019re thinking, \u201cThat will work, but it\u2019s not going to last.\u201d Well, it lasted for months, actually; but every time you pushed the clutch, it would sort of go, \u201cClink, clink, clink.\u201d [Laughter] Because there was this vice grip hanging onto the cable.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: So, there was a night where we were having this big fundraiser for our ministry. It was winter\u2014in November, there was snow on the ground, and Dave had to go early. I was waiting for the babysitter. It was a very formal night, so I was dressed in a dress.<\/p>\n<p>The babysitter came. I jumped in the car; I was in a hurry; I needed to get there quickly. I was driving, and all of a sudden, I hit the clutch, but I could tell the clutch fell to the floor.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: The vice grip fell off.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: [Laughing] I was in a neighborhood. It was dark, at night, and this was before cell phones. So, I went to a house, knocked on the door, and I opened my coat to show that I had a belly (I was pregnant). I said [demure voice], \u201cHi. My car just broke down; you can see it down the road. Could I please come in and use your phone?\u201d They said, \u201cWe\u2019re sorry, but we don\u2019t let strangers into our house.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Mind you, I was totally dressed! I had a dress on; I was dressed up! So, I said, \u201cWell, I\u2019m pregnant.\u201d She said, \u201cSorry.\u201d Then, I hit another house, and they weren\u2019t home. So, then, I was so mad! Who was I mad at? Dave!! For having a pregnant wife and fixing the car with a vice grip.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, not a good move.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I decide to trudge through the backyards of all these houses to get home. I\u2019m jumping over fences in my high heels and my dress. I am so mad! I get home, change my clothes, and I have to borrow a car. I get to the event where Dave has just finished this big talk\u2014a speech, and I walk in the door. This woman grabs me. She pulls me by the side, and she holds my hands. She says, \u201cAre you Ann Wilson? Are you Dave Wilson\u2019s wife?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I said, \u201cYes, I am!\u201d She said, \u201cIt must be something to be married to him!\u201d And I said, \u201cIt is really something, let me tell you!\u201d [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Dave: This literally happened just as she said,<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I want you to know\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014it was a terrible moment.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014I went into labor three days after that\u2014early! I had to be on bedrest for four-and-a half months after that.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And somehow, that\u2019s my fault!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: It is!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: But here\u2019s the question: what does that have to do with the power of grace?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: In marriage, we all have those situations!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You\u2019re supposed to say you forgave me!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Wait, I\u2019m getting there. We all have those situations where we want to hold on to hurt [in] how our spouse has let us down, or they haven\u2019t been there, or you feel betrayed, or you feel forgotten; you feel alone; you feel unseen. All of us have those situations.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And God is saying, \u201cTake your eyes off of them, and forgive them!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>It took me a little bit\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014yes, it did!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014to forgive you for that; but honestly, you were doing your best, you know?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: No, I blew it! I blew it. But the truth is, you did forgive.<\/p>\n<p>I said it earlier, and you may not have believed it, but in 44 years of marriage, we\u2019ve had to forgive each other\u2014it has to be in the thousands.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Oh, thousands!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I mean, many times per week; some really hard, deep wounds, and others, small\u2014that one\u2019s smaller, even though it was a horrible night. If you don\u2019t choose, as Tim said, to be a forgiver and a repenter\u2014forgiveness is on the side when your spouse has hurt you; when you\u2019re the spouse who\u2019s hurt your wife or husband, you\u2019ve got to repent.<\/p>\n<p>That means [to] be humble, and apologize, and make it right.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And you were super-humble.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Well, I blew it! [Laughter] Somehow, I had to spend a couple hundred bucks and get it fixed right.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Can we just both say: the integral part of this, the most important thing, is your walk with God.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You can\u2019t do it without the power of God.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: The continual surrender to Him.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Literally, the power of God is available to you. You cannot forgive without God\u2019s power.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>So, where are you with Him? Are you sitting at His feet? Are you reading the Word? Have you given your life to Him? That\u2019s where it all starts.<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: This is one of the major things I love about the Wilsons. They\u2019re not telling you to try harder to be better. They\u2019re calling you to admit your need, to ask for God\u2019s help, and to live a life of faith that sees God work through you to experience growth and change.<\/p>\n<p>I love them, and I love the call that they\u2019ve given us today by giving us examples from their own personal lives.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019m Shelby Abbott, and you\u2019ve been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson on FamilyLife Today. We\u2019ve been, basically, in many ways, talking about what it looks like to pour into your marriage, to invest in your marriage; to be intentional about seeing growth. We are firm believers in that here at FamilyLife (in case, maybe, you haven\u2019t noticed). Building a strong marriage (we\u2019ve always said) takes intentional effort.<\/p>\n<p>So, one of the resources that we have available for you is the FamilyLife Weekend to Remember\u00ae marriage getaway. At the Weekend to Remember, we provide the tools and the environment for couples to grow closer to God and to each other, and we want you to participate in that. Since today is September 16th, it\u2019s actually the last day to take advantage of our half-price sale and register for two at the price of one.<\/p>\n<p>All you have to do is click on the Weekend to Remember banner at FamilyLifeToday.com, and you can start investing in your relationship right now. Again, that\u2019s FamilyLifeToday.com. Now, coming up tomorrow, one of our favorites here at FamilyLife Today, Dane Ortlund, is going to be here with Dave and Ann Wilson to talk about Christ\u2019s empathy and nearness to believers. Do you believe He is near to you? He is! Dane\u2019s going to talk about that tomorrow. We hope you\u2019ll join us.<\/p>\n<p>On behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Shelby Abbott. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>FamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry.<\/p>\n<p>Helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.<\/p>\n<p>We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?<\/p>\n<p>Copyright \u00a9 2024 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.<\/p>\n<p>www.FamilyLife<\/p>\n","theme_header_position":"Sticky","post_header_is_sticky":"default","is_header_overlay":"0"},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/295511","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/47000"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=295511"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/280865"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=295511"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=295511"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=295511"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=295511"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=295511"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=295511"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}