{"id":280665,"date":"2024-10-25T07:00:00","date_gmt":"2024-10-25T08:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/overcoming-incivility-heather-holleman\/"},"modified":"2025-05-09T16:35:35","modified_gmt":"2025-05-09T20:35:35","slug":"overcoming-incivility-heather-holleman","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/overcoming-incivility-heather-holleman\/","title":{"rendered":"Overcoming Incivility: Heather Holleman"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>In a world thrashed by incivility, professor Heather Holleman describes researched-based techniques for rediscovering conversations that connect us.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>On FamilyLife Today, Dave and Ann Wilson host professor Heather Holleman. She describes researched-based techniques for rediscovering conversations that connect us in a world thrashed by incivility,.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":47000,"featured_media":280865,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"audio","audio_file":"https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/80234970-982e-462c-a42e-b203015b01c2\/audio.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:29:34","filesize":"27.10M","filesize_raw":"","date_recorded":"2024-10-25 04:00:00","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2082,2934],"tags":[2435],"podcast_series":[8587],"cwp_profile":[9783],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-280665","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-communication","category-relationships","tag-incivility","podcast_series-six-conversations-in-an-isolated-world-heather-holleman","cwp_profile-heather-holleman","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/06\/image-scaled.jpg?w=1024","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/280665\/overcoming-incivility-heather-holleman","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/280665\/overcoming-incivility-heather-holleman","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"GsgODaiaCW\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/overcoming-incivility-heather-holleman\/\">Overcoming Incivility: Heather Holleman<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/overcoming-incivility-heather-holleman\/embed\/#?secret=GsgODaiaCW\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Overcoming Incivility: Heather Holleman&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"GsgODaiaCW\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"secondline_imported_guid":["80234970-982e-462c-a42e-b203015b01c2"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/80234970-982e-462c-a42e-b203015b01c2\/audio.mp3"],"duration":["00:29:34"],"filesize":["27.10M"],"_thumbnail_id":["280865"],"_edit_lock":["1746822945:47000"],"_edit_last":["47000"],"show_notes":["<ul>\n<li>Sign up to receive Amberly Neese\u2019s five-week video series, \u201c<a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/content_offer\/finding-common-ground\/\">Moving Toward Each Other in the Middle of a Divisive World<\/a>.\u201d Amberly, author and comedian, offers insights on fostering peace in our communities despite differing views.<\/li>\n<li>Find resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/past-radio-resources\/\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Find more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<\/li>\n<li>Help others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Check out all the FamilyLife's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n"],"theme_header_position":["Sticky"],"post_header_is_sticky":["default"],"is_header_overlay":["0"],"episode_type":["audio"],"date_recorded":["2024-10-25 04:00:00"],"enclosure":["https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/80234970-982e-462c-a42e-b203015b01c2\/audio.mp3"],"_seopress_redirections_type":["301"],"_seopress_redirections_logged_status":["both"],"_seopress_analysis_target_kw":[""],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2024-10-25.pdf"],"transcript_content":["<p>FamilyLife Today\u00ae with Dave and Ann Wilson - Web Version Transcript<\/p>\n<p>This content has been generated by an artificial intelligence language model. While we strive for accuracy and quality, please note that the information provided will most likely not be entirely error-free or up-to-date. We recommend independently verifying the content with the originally-released audio. This transcript is provided for your personal use and general information purposes only. References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. We do not assume any responsibility or liability for the use or interpretation of this content.<\/p>\n<p>Overcoming Incivility<\/p>\n<p>Guest:Heather Holleman<\/p>\n<p>From the series:Six Conversations in an Isolated World (Day 2 of 2)<\/p>\n<p>Air date:October 25, 2024<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I feel like I\u2019m sitting in the studio with two of the best conversationalists in one room.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Well, it\u2019s not me.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Oh, yes, it is! You are amazing. I marvel at how you draw out people anywhere\/everywhere: walking down the sidewalk in our neighborhood, in the airport. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Does it bug you?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes. [Laughter] At times, I\u2019m like, \u201cCan we just\u2026\u201d I mean, you\u2019re so good; and you ask so many great, great questions. People want to talk to you, and I just leave. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Ann: You\u2019re so funny. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: Welcome to FamilyLife Today where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Shelby Abbott and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com. This is FamilyLife Today<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Heather Holleman is back with us. She wrote the book on how to have great conversations.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Oh, Heather,\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Heather: I did.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014you have been such a joy. I feel like we could talk to you forever.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: Well, I feel the same. See, we have a loving connection already.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: We do.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: We have warmth; we\u2019ve increased our happiness.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Let\u2019s talk again about The Six Conversations: Pathways to Connecting in an Age of Isolation and Incivility. We are living in this. Of course, you know this; that\u2019s why you wrote it.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And you have your doctorate; you\u2019re working as a professor with students, so you see this every day.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Is our culture changing? Is this something that\u2019s more difficult now than it has been?<\/p>\n<p>Heather: I think it is more difficult now; because I use the word, \u201cincivility,\u201d to talk about a particular cultural moment. Students worry about cancel culture; they worry about saying the wrong thing. Some researchers call it the \u201coutrage industry\u201d; that we\u2019ve addicted ourselves to controversy, and anger, and divisiveness.<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s a real opportunity to figure out how to reconnect in loving ways. And when you do that, you actually have a greater chance for social change, I feel like. It\u2019s just something I care about deeply is helping students feel a sense of belonging and connection. Right now, there\u2019s a lot of fear of connecting in conversation because of the cultural moment.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, I feel that. That\u2019s what I wanted to ask you: the incivility is real; so sometimes, you just resist entering a conversation.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: Right.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I feel like I\u2019m always going to offend someone.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: Right; right. We\u2019re afraid of offending people; we\u2019re afraid of them judging us.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And you\u2019re just hoping the conversation doesn\u2019t go anywhere near politics\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Heather: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014and I\u2019m not talking just strangers.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: Right.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I\u2019m talking about our own family members.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: \u2014friends and family. We\u2019ve blocked people on Facebook\u00ae; people are deleting accounts. They won\u2019t go home for holidays, because their family voted differently or believes something different about vaccines. We\u2019ve also seen churches torn apart.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Oh, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: And that is the saddest for me, I think, just the division happening.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019ve learned, through the process of researching this book, really, never to be afraid of a conversation again because\u2014 \u201cIf you are curious,\u201d \u201cBelieve the best,\u201d \u201cExpress concern,\u201d and \u201cShare your life,\u201d\u2014you really are in a great mindset to just listen to people:<\/p>\n<p>Figure out why they believe what they believe.<\/p>\n<p>Try to understand them: try to understand what they want; what they\u2019re passionate about.<\/p>\n<p>And also, to get to the personal.<\/p>\n<p>A lot of times, we talk about politics; but really, maybe they have a child at home who\u2019s sick that they\u2019re worried about; or maybe, they\u2019re nervous about an upcoming decision. You can move it from the realm of heavier topics to something closer to home, and that can help form a warm connection.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Why is this so important to you?<\/p>\n<p>Heather: I just deeply care about helping students belong; and probably, because I grew up longing for connection and never figuring out how to make a connection with someone. I would use all sorts of tactics, like flattery; or I just wanted people to like me, and I didn\u2019t understand what a loving connection was\u2014it\u2019s that\u2014and it\u2019s that I know the research behind wellbeing and, also, spiritual health. We need warm connections. God created us for that, and we really reflect Him when we\u2019re in loving connection with other people.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I was going to say: we\u2019ve been talking to you on prior episodes, and you\u2019re an evangelist.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: I love talking about Jesus, yes; it\u2019s my favorite thing, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: You do, and I feel like you create this pathway of the gospel that\u2019s so easy, because you\u2019re not threatening. The way you approach people, it opens the door to hear about Jesus and your faith. You\u2019re bold about it, but you\u2019re really gracious.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: Well, part of it is, when you approach someone, and you have a loving connection with them already\u2014because, again, the mindset: \u201cYou believe the best,\u201d You\u2019re curious,\u201d \u201cYou express concern,\u201d and \u201cYou\u2019re willing to share your life,\u201d\u2014the gospel presentation doesn\u2019t come off like a sales pitch or like\/it\u2019s just natural. You\u2019re just sharing your life, and people are asking questions.<\/p>\n<p>I have a lot of friends in my life, who are atheists, or from a different religious position; and it\u2019s never hostile. It\u2019s always just rooted in curiosity: \u201cLet me share what Christians believe.\u201d It\u2019s wonderful to see how God works in those moments and how people come to faith, because they\u2019ve had a loving conversation.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: There\u2019s a lot I want to talk about; your book is so practical. You used the word just a minute ago that I want to hear your thoughts on: \u201clistening.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Heather: Yes; oh, I learned so much; I was a terrible listener.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Really?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, I think we live in a culture that we don\u2019t listen well. You can\u2019t express concern to somebody if you haven\u2019t listened to their concerns.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Because we\u2019re ready with our retort of what we\u2019re going to say next.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: In marriage, it\u2019s huge.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: It\u2019s huge.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: We don\u2019t listen, so coach us up.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: I will tell you: this was my favorite chapter to write, because no one ever taught me what I\u2019m listening for. This is going to change your life: \u201cWhen someone is speaking to you, listen for what their core values are, and say back to them what you\u2019re hearing.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>For example, I asked my neighbor, who I did not have a warm connection with yet. He was walking his dog, and I said, \u201cWhat are your plans for the weekend?\u201d He said, \u201cWell, I\u2019m really upset, because my son was supposed to come; but he changed the plan; and then I thought we were going to have these seats, but then this got messed up.\u201d He was going on and on about all his plans changing.<\/p>\n<p>I looked at him, and I said, \u201cIt really sounds like you value order in your schedule and having the itinerary in place.\u201d He paused and looked at me, and said, \u201cI do; I really do.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: You\u2019re like a therapist! [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Heather: And then, he said, \u201cWalk with me\u201d; he was ready to talk.<\/p>\n<p>And then, I tried it again with a businesswoman that I really wanted to form a bond with\u2014we were acquaintances\u2014but I thought, \u201cYou know what? I want to connect with her more.\u201d I asked her about her day. She was talking about projects that she had completed, where she didn\u2019t feel like she had done her best work. I kept noticing: \u201cShe keeps talking about whether something is her best work.\u201d I said to this woman, \u201cYou know, it really sounds like you value excellence, and you don\u2019t know what to do if you feel like you\u2019ve turned something in that isn\u2019t your best work.\u201d And she said, \u201cI do.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: She said, \u201cWalk with me.\u201d [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Heather: \u201cI really do.\u201d No, this is what she said: \u201cWill you come to my office next week? Talking to you is the best part of my week.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: She did not!<\/p>\n<p>Heather: And now, we are dear friends; we have lunch every week.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You didn\u2019t say, \u201cFor $150 an hour I\u2019ll do that\u201d?<\/p>\n<p>Heather: No; it is core values. I tried it with people, who are in a hard situation\u2014people who are grieving, people who are in trauma situations. A woman ran up to me in the grocery store and kind of threw herself on me. She was crying.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:This isn't a stranger.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: No, this is a friend. But in situations like that, I thought, \u201cOkay, just listen.\u201d But what am I listening for? And so as she shared what was going on with her, I said to her, \u201cIt sounds like you really value being prepared, and right now you feel unprepared.\u201d She stood back and my daughters were watching this. She stood back and she was like, \u201cThat's exactly it.\u201d And I said, \u201cWell, can I help you get prepared? What can I do?\u201d Remember, express concern.<\/p>\n<p>Well, my daughters afterwards, they were like, \u201cMom, you are like a genius. How do you?\u201d because they've observed me in all these situations. And I said, \u201cLook, girls, you're listening for what you really see people valuing. And when you put words to it, they feel so loved. They feel so seen. It's wonderful.\u201d And it was funny, we were at the doctor and the doctor actually said something about my core value, and we just started laughing so hard.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:I want to hear it.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: Okay. Well, I was with my daughter at the doctor. He did the thing he needed to do in five minutes. He said, I'm not even going to make you come back in. I'm going to call you tomorrow, and the prescription's waiting for you. He said, \u201cI know you value efficiency.\u201d I said, \u201cI a hundred percent do.\u201d I deeply value efficiency. It's the military daughter in me, I think. I do not like wasting people's time. I don't like my time being, it's probably a sin issue. I love efficiency. So people bless me when they help me become efficient. It's really weird, but I feel loved when people are like, Heather, you really value efficiency. How can I help make this faster for you? Isn't that weird?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Well, this whole conversation I'm going through in my head of conversations in our home.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And to recognize the core value and empathize, like \u201cOh, it...\u201d I\u2019m thinking that would change so much.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014as a parent.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: Yes, it does.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: That\u2019s what I\u2019m saying. Let\u2019s say, for instance,\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014as a husband, as a wife\u2014I mean, come on.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I\u2019m sitting here thinking of when I\u2019m driving with Dave: he is complaining about all the drivers and how they\u2019re driving wrong. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Dave: How are we going here? Go anywhere else but here.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: Because he values strategy; yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: That\u2019s what I was going to say. I\u2019m complaining that he\u2019s always complaining about everyone driving; and so instead of complaining, I should empathize and think, \u201cWhat\u2019s his core value?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You should compliment me.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: And you value positive communication. You don\u2019t like environments of complaining, it sounds like.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Oh, no.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: Like you don\u2019t like it when people\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014not when it happens every day and every time you\u2019re in the car.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: Yes. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>But with children, I\u2019ll tell you: children\/they will light up; because often, they don\u2019t even have words to explain their own personality. My daughter loves beautiful things: she loves clothes; she loves having her room so beautiful. I told her the other day; you really love aesthetic\u2014like using that word for her. \u201cYou love beauty. This is how God made you; you love things that look wonderful.\u201d Like she\u2019s probably going to be some kind of interior designer or something.<\/p>\n<p>My other daughter deeply values science and the scientific process and logical things. So just acknowledging that, \u201cYou like order. Things do not go well for you if something doesn't seem logical to you.\u201d So things like that, it really makes a difference\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: So Dave, now when we're driving, I'm saying you really, I'm going to say\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Don't even try. I am in sin when we're driving.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:No, but it is true. Did you call it strategy?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I'm strategic.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: Well, I think the football person in you\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: The thing I love\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Heather: \u2014and the sermon you\u2014go ahead. Tell me what you love.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:The thing I loved about football, still to this day, was the strategic plan.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:I love dissecting a defense and trying to find the weakness and attack it more than anything else. It was like, \u201cOh, I could be an offensive coordinator. I probably couldn't\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Heather: Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u2014but I love that part of it. So yeah, you're right about strategic part. And that's what happens in the car.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: You know how they should be.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:You could easily \u201cTurn right on red.\u201d I just, but I'm in sin because I'm selfish. But I want to ask this. So if we're not listening well, is it a selfish, arrogance, pride issue?<\/p>\n<p>Heather: I think so.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Because if I\u2019m talking all the time, and I\u2019m not really taking time to listen to you, I think I\u2019m very selfish; it\u2019s like it\u2019s hard work to listen.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: It is. Well, it\u2019s a supreme act of love to give someone your full attention.<\/p>\n<p>I did find a wonderful definition of arrogance that\u2019s in the book;\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Oh, wonderful! [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Oh, boy.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: \u2014it says that: \u201cArrogant people really believe that they don\u2019t need anything from other people. They don\u2019t believe other people can teach them anything. They walk around superior.\u201d It really is a disposition of the heart, where you put yourself above other people.<\/p>\n<p>What I love about The Six Conversations is, when you\u2019re curious, and have the disposition that you\u2019re going to value others above yourself\u2014think about the end of Philippians 2, Jesus taking on the nature of a servant\u2014it really makes things so wonderful when you do that.<\/p>\n<p>Also, when you\u2019re listening for core values, you also have to be humble, because someone\u2019s core value may be the opposite of what you value. In my marriage, I value efficiency; my husband values slow, deliberative thought processes. He will take two weeks to make a decision that I already made an hour ago. He knows my core value; I know his core value: we have to figure out how to meet in the middle.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Wow.<\/p>\n<p>So yeah, we should come to one of your conferences and talk about\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Well, we have a little bit of that too.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: Yeah. You guys have that problem where you have opposite core values?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Dave\u2019s just a little\u2014more of a processor. He likes to follow\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave:I'm always doing this. \u201cWell, on the one hand we could; on the other\u2014\"<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Like, \u201cNo, this is it.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Heather: I already made this decision.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes, and I'm already wanting to move in it.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: But what we were saying earlier, I was thinking, \u201cOkay, in a conflict,--\"could be a marital conflict, could be with your kids, could be any conflict\u2014\u201clistening is so important,\u201d and here's what happens, I think, to your point of arrogance is \u201cI don't want to listen to what you're feeling or saying right now because I know better what you should be doing and thinking.\u201d And I'm going to slam that down on you, like, \u201cWhy are you?\u201d Isn't that arrogance? It's like, man, conflicts could go so much further if we just shut up and listen, to start.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: And that was me, because I was a national debater\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Oh, boy! [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Heather: \u2014and won debates\u2014like I was at Harvard quarter finals\/like went to camps\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: What?!\u2014Ahh!<\/p>\n<p>Heather: \u2014Dartmouth, Michigan.<\/p>\n<p>When we got married\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Oh, you\u2019d be terrible to be married to.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: Oh, I was. [Laughter] You need Ash here; you need to bring Ash on your program, because he\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: We will.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: We\u2019re bringing him back.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: \u2014the number one thing he says, in an argument, is: \u201cOkay, you\u2019re going to win this debate; and it\u2019s going to be terrible for our marriage.\u201d I can win any argument; it\u2019s not good for our marriage. I stopped doing that; occasionally, he\u2019ll say, \u201cYou\u2019re doing it again\u201d; because I, like you: \u201cI already see the problems in your thinking,\u201d and \u201cHere\u2019s my five-point rebuttal to why everything you\u2019re saying is wrong.\u201d So now, just understanding his core values.<\/p>\n<p>It kind of helps me, too, when I researched what the goal of conversation is.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I was going to say: \u201cLet\u2019s get into those three fresh goals for conversation.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Heather: Yes, because a lot of people think: \u201cOkay; I\u2019m at a party. I ask these questions; but then, how do I end the conversation?\u201d or \u201cWhat leads to the warm connection?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s three things that are really profoundly biblical. In every conversation, you should be thinking:<\/p>\n<p>\u201cHow can I encourage this person?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>\u201cHow can I help them in their own personal growth goals?\u201d\u2014like: \u201cHow can I come alongside them?\u201d\u2014projects or goals.<\/p>\n<p>And the research shows that, if you can bring someone to a state of awe or marveling about something, it creates a warm connection; and that makes you feel less lonely.<\/p>\n<p>If you and I went outside and saw a beautiful bird together, or like an alligator\u2014because don\u2019t you guys have these here?\u2014[Laughter]\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Oh, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: \u2014if we, together, were like, \u201cCan you believe we saw that?\u201d we would feel closer, less lonely, and it also increases creativity when you\u2019re in a state of awe.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Because we marveled.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: We marveled together. Yes. We talked about this earlier: how you do that when you go on walks? You see the deer and the leaves. I have a mentor who she'll make me stop and look at flowers and she'll sing the Hallelujah chorus. And we feel so close after those walks because we've marveled together. It\u2019s a whole different way of communicating than what we\u2019re used to in the culture now.<\/p>\n<p>I love friends, who are wanting to know: \u201cHow do you want to grow this year?\u201d \u201cWhat projects are you working on?\u201d And then, they express concern\u2014it\u2019s called \u201cinvestment\u201d\u2014by them saying, \u201cHow can we help you achieve your goals? What do you need?\u201d That\u2019s wonderful friendship; that\u2019s wonderful connection.<\/p>\n<p>The research study that came to my email on diseases of despair in the state of Pennsylvania\u2014so alcohol, suicide\u2014they call it \u201cdiseases of despair\u201d; they\u2019re linking that to one of four key factors. One was just: \u201cLack of social connection,\u201d\u2014so having someone who knows what you\u2019re working on; what you\u2019re thinking about\u2014that\u2019s going to help them in whatever they\u2019re struggling with.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I\u2019m imagining parents, who have their teens in their bedrooms on their devices for hours and hours at a time; but their kids are struggling with depression and anxiety.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: Oh, yes. The depression and anxiety; it\u2019s never been higher, in my opinion, at the college campus.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: How would you encourage those parents, knowing what you just said: \u201cHow could they pull them out of that situation?\u201d You have girls that are 19 and 17?<\/p>\n<p>Heather: Yes, so we do like our phones. I\u2019m not a parent who makes them not have their phone, because I also enjoy TikTok\u00ae and social media. But one thing I tell my girls is\u2014just the research behind dopamine addictions with your phone\u2014like you have to detox from that, because you\u2019re just getting a dopamine hit every time. Your brain is really addicted to your phone\u2014we all know this\u2014so having times when you detox from it.<\/p>\n<p>We walk every day together, and we don\u2019t have our\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: You walk with your girls?<\/p>\n<p>Heather: I walk with my girls every day; we call it \u201cTaking Loops.\u201d We try to do three miles a day in the afternoon or evening. I love walking because you can do the \u201cawe walk with marvel.\u201d You can practice the conversation questions and just tell them it is a dopamine detox that we are doing for your brain, so you're going to do better with your homework and sleeping, and just show them. There are YouTube videos and research reports on how to kind of detox from your phone.<\/p>\n<p>The other thing you can do is actually use the phone for good conversation. You could say, what was the funniest thing that you saw today on social media? So it's engaged in what they're looking at on the phone or doing on the phone. We do that a lot with the older girls. Of course, I was much more parental and controlling when they were younger, but now that they're\u2014one is out of the house and\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: They\u2019re adults.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: \u2014yeah, we just laugh about it and talk about what makes something funny? What were you thinking about when you saw that video? How'd you decide to do this? Or whatever. You can go down the list of The Six Conversations to do that. What\u2019s going to happen is: they\u2019re going to enjoy the conversations so much that it, in itself, will be a pleasurable experience, which is a dopamine reward. They may find that they love the warm connection and will come out of their room a little more\/come down to talk.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Listening to you, Heather, what just hit me, right or wrong is where my brain went. We are so busy running so fast. \u201cWe,\u201d meaning sort of most of us in the culture. You taking walks with your daughters means conversation doesn\u2019t happen unless there\u2019s time\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Heather: \u2014lots of time.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014to slow down and focus, whether it\u2019s on a walk or sitting at a dinner table. Most families don\u2019t even have dinner together anymore. They\u2019re just running from one sports event to one school event. You have to decide: \u201cWe have to pace our life in a way that we have time to have a conversation.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Heather: Even if it\u2019s 15 minutes, the benefits of a daily walk are indisputable and outstanding for your health.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: What do you do in the winter?<\/p>\n<p>Heather: We walk in the winter. I got yak tracks for the ice. We walk in the winter. I do it for my own health and weight management, but my daughter does it for stress because it regulates cortisol\/insulin when you go on a walk. I mean, I think the research shows you it has to be about 20 minutes to get the effect, but you're really helping your body.<\/p>\n<p>And even if nobody's talking right away, your child will open up. If you are walking, just try it out. Go on a walk and eventually someone's going to say something and it's fun. I never pressure it, but sometimes I'll say, \u201cWhat have you been thinking about?\u201d Or with kids that are really stressed out, I'll say, \u201cIs there a thought going through your mind that you just can't get rid of?\u201d They love that question because so many kids are just spinning in anxiety, and they want someone to listen. And I love it. We love our walks. We've been doing it since Covid, since 20, actually 2019, early 2019, we started doing our daily loop.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I remember one of my favorite things, when the boys were teenagers\u2014again, they\u2019re married now with grandkids\u2014but we\u2019d be walking in their room, high school years, and saying, \u201cHey, tell me what you\u2019re listening to.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Heather: Yes, yes; music.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:And then many parents would say, \u201cOkay, and then I'm going to tell them they shouldn't be listening to that.\u201d Mine was, \u201cLet's look at the lyrics.\u201d I grabbed my guitar. Let's learn this song.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: That\u2019s so cool.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Well you would even say\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: What are they trying to say in this lyric?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And you would say, \u201cTell me why you love this so much.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: That\u2019s a great question.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: That\u2019s such a good question.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Some of the music I hated, but it didn\u2019t matter; it\u2019s like: \u201cThis isn\u2019t about me. \u201cWhy do you like that?\u2019 \u2018What\u2019s in there?\u2019\u201d That was a sweet moment.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: I heard a story of a youth pastor, who came to faith because his grandma would walk into the room, and get on the floor with him, and listen to his Metallica albums with him. [Laughter] This sweet Christian grandma would listen to all the heavy metal and say that: \u201cWhy do you love it?\u201d He felt so loved and accepted by her. I love that.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I remember asking our boys, \u201cTell me what you\u2019ve been thinking about.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Heather: Yes, that is so great: \u201cWhat have you been thinking about?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: But one of my sons, he's our oldest, he's very techie. He's very analytical. We asked this at the dinner table, \u201cWhat do you feel like you think about the most?\u201d which is an interesting question. And he said\u2014I was like, \u201cWhat in the world?\u201d He said, \u201cI think almost all day long, I think about how things work.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Heather: Physical processes; that's amazing.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I was like that to me\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: That is so him.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: It\u2019s so him.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: That's amazing.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And that's why we call them every day. \u201cHelp us. We don't understand how this thing works.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: But isn't that fascinating?<\/p>\n<p>Heather: No, I can see that. I can tell what my daughters are probably thinking about all day long.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Really?<\/p>\n<p>Heather: Yeah, because one\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Part of it's their gifts and their passions too.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: Oh, that's good. I wonder, do you know the answer to that?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Of what?<\/p>\n<p>Heather: That question. That's such a good question, Ann. I'm like, \u201cWhat do I think?\u201d I do think about theology all day long. I think about how God's going to work something for my good. Is that weird? Is that self-focused?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: It shows me that you\u2019ve been in the Word a lot.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: Well, I\u2019m like, \u201cThis bad thing is happening...\u201d For example, I have to fly home tonight; and there\u2019s a storm. I\u2019m already anticipating; I\u2019m like, \u201cLord, please, if I have to spend the night in Philadelphia, it is going to challenge my theology.\u201d [Laughter] You know, I really think about what I believe about God.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014the logistics.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, it\u2019s because it\u2019s not going to be efficient.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: That\u2019s what it is; because other people are like: \u201cHeather, just enjoy the free hotel stay. Get the gift voucher. Go get yourself some Smashburger\u00ae.\u201d [Laughter] I\u2019m like, \u201cBut it is wasting\u2026\u201d You\u2019re absolutely right:\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u201cIt\u2019s wasting time.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Heather: \u2014travel is not fun for me, because it is not efficient. My favorite thing is when the pilot says, \u201cWe\u2019re going to arrive ten minutes before schedule.\u201d [Laughter] I\u2019m like, \u201cYes!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Dave, what do you think about?<\/p>\n<p>Heather: Yes, what would you say?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I don\u2019t want to talk about me. I want to\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Oh, come on. What do you think?<\/p>\n<p>Heather: What do you think about?\u2014is it strategy?\u2014you think about how things could be better?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, I do; that\u2019s it.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: This is a great question. I\u2019m going to ask my students this: \u201cWhat do you think about most?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: In some ways, I hate that my mind critiques things, like this broadcast,\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Heather: You\u2019ll be like, \u201cWhat could we have done better?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014like that sermon, like that guitar solo, like the worship leader, like the sound\u2014everything I\u2019m like analyzing. Sometimes, when I\u2019m in worship, as a participant\u2014not playing in the band\u2014I have to just block it out, and go, \u201cEnjoy this moment. Don\u2019t critique how the acoustic guy is playing his thing\u2014don\u2019t listen\u2014just worship God.\u201d So maybe that\u2019s it; I don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: Yes; well, if someone said to you: \u201cDave, what did you think of that worship set? How would you have done it better?\u201d\u2014would that feel like a loving question to you; because then, you could share?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Oh, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: He would love that, because he always knows the answer.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: You would love that. I\u2019m going to remember this; afterwards, I\u2019m going to be like, \u201cDave, what did you think of that interview? What could we have done better?\u201d And you\u2019ll be like, \u201cOh, walk with me.\u201d [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And I actually like it when people come up to me, and say, \u201cHere\u2019s a thought on how this interview\/this thing could have been better.\u201d I\u2019m not defensive; I\u2019m like,\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: We both like that.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: Oh, that\u2019s great.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u201cHelp me,\u201d\u2014if you saw something in that sermon, whatever\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: You like feedback.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014\u201cI have to preach this three times today. Make the next two better than the first one.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes; people will laugh\u2014because our church was doing three services in one [building]\u2014so I would listen to the first one from home. I would send him a text, like, \u201cHey, if you said it like this\u2026\u201d or \u201c\u2026you added this\u2026\u201d Dave loved that.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Oh, it was so helpful.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: It would come up on his iPad\u00ae as he\u2019s speaking.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: I love that; that\u2019s so good.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Hey, I want to end with this\u2014because one of the things that I drew out of your book, when you said fresh goals of conversation: \u201cMutually encourage,\u201d \u201cAid personal growth,\u201d and \u201cTo marvel,\u201d\u2014my first thought, when you said, \u201cTo marvel,\u201d was: \u201cAs we have conversations with people, and we ask questions, and we listen well, we\u2019re going to marvel at them,\u201d\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Heather: Ohh; yes!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: That\u2019s what I thought too.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014which is both, because you get into: \u201cMarvel together.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>But there\u2019s a point, where you\u2019re like\u2014when you were just talking about the way your brain works\u2014I was like, \u201cWow! That is\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014\u201cLook what God has done.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I went, \u201cAhhh!\u201d [Laughter] I thought, \u201cWhen you have a great conversation with somebody, and it\u2019s not about you; it\u2019s really about: \u2018I want to consider their interests more important than my own.\u2019\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Heather: Yes; that\u2019s beautiful.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: At some point, you go\u2014like you look at your wife\u2014and you go, \u201cShe\u2019s amazing.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: Yes; \u201cGod made her so awesome.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u201cAnd I\u2019d forgotten that\u2014but I saw it again\u2014because I asked, and I listened.\u201d That could really enhance a marriage.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And I feel like, too, with our kids\u2014I feel like that piece for me\u2014there was a point, when our kids were younger, that I wanted to mold them into who I wanted them to be. I would have never said that; but really, I had dreams and expectations of who they would become.<\/p>\n<p>When I stopped that, and I started seeing and marveling of who God already created them to be, and what He had put in them, it was like a worship\u2014not of them\u2014but of: \u201cGod, look what You\u2019ve done.\u201d I think we started believing, and seeing, and pointing out, and marveling at these magnificent beings that God let us parent.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: Yes; that\u2019s good.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Well, here\u2019s a concept that we learned, early in our marriage, way back from a guy named Gary Smalley.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: Love Gary Smalley.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Now his son, Greg, is doing marriage stuff; but Gary taught on honor\u2014and the Hebrew word, \u201cHonor your mother and father,\u201d\u2014the word literally means \u201cto bend the knee.\u201d His point was: \u201cWhen do you bend knees?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>In some cultures, you bend the knee when you\u2019re in the presence of somebody extremely valuable. He goes, \u201cThat\u2019s what honor is\u2014when you\u2019re with your wife, when you\u2019re with your kids, when you\u2019re with a total stranger\u2014when you honor them, you\u2019re saying, \u2018I\u2019m in the presence of someone extremely valuable.\u2019\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Heather: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: We call a judge \u201cthe honorable judge,\u201d because\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Heather: That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014they have a position. You don\u2019t have to like somebody or even love them; you honor who they are, created in the image of God.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014the image-bearers.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: That\u2019s huge.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: That\u2019s what our conversation could say to somebody: \u201cI\u2019m in the presence of somebody extremely valuable.\u201d If they felt that every time they were around us, whew!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Heather, you have been such a treat and joy.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: It\u2019s just been so fun.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: So fun; thank you for being with us.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: Well, you\u2019re welcome. Thank you for having me.<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: I\u2019m Shelby Abbott, and you've been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson with Heather Holleman on FamilyLife Today. I have known Heather for a very long time. We've been in the Campus Ministry of Cru\u00ae for a long time. We've been authors together; we've been friends. I know her and Ashley, her husband, and she is just the real deal. I hope you have really gleaned a lot from her and been inspired to have better conversations with the people in your life.<\/p>\n<p>Heather's written a book called The Six Conversations: Pathways to Connecting in an Age of Isolation and Incivility. You can get your copy of Heather's book right now by going online to FamilyLifeToday.com, or you could find a link to it in our show notes. Or feel free to give us a call at 800-358-6329 to request your copy. Again, that number is 800-F as in family, L as in life, and then the word, TODAY.<\/p>\n<p>And speaking of isolation and incivility, we're living in times that's really just a lot of tension going on in our culture. There's a lot of division in social media, family gatherings, and maybe even around your own kitchen table, which is why I'm excited to say that there is a resource for you. There's something helpful for you.<\/p>\n<p>We at FamilyLife\u00ae have partnered with our friend, author, and comedian Amberly Neese on a video series called Moving Toward Each Other in the Middle of a Divisive World. In this, Amberly guides us on how to build peace in our own backyards when our differing thoughts and opinions and beliefs threaten to create division. So you can sign up in the show notes or go to FamilyLife.com\/FindingCommonGround to get our video series. Again, that's FamilyLife.com\/FindingCommonGround.<\/p>\n<p>Now, coming up next week, highly Happy Couples know Less is more, but what does that practically mean? Well, we'll dive into that next week, and it will enhance your marriage.<\/p>\n<p>On behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I'm Shelby Abbott. We'll see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>FamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife, a Cru Ministry.<\/p>\n<p>Helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.<\/p>\n<p>If you\u2019ve benefited from the FamilyLife Today transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs of producing them and making them available online?<\/p>\n<p>Copyright \u00a9 2024 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.<\/p>\n<p>www.FamilyLife.com<\/p>\n"],"_wp_old_date":["2022-12-16"],"_g_feedback_shortcode_64d24e77a9be1e8a4d506ff2494f0cacb8e3efa0":["\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Name\" type=\"name\"  required=\"true\" \/]\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Email\" type=\"email\" required=\"true\" \/]\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Website\" type=\"url\" \/]\n\t\t\t\t[contact-field label=\"Message\" type=\"textarea\" \/]"],"_g_feedback_shortcode_atts_64d24e77a9be1e8a4d506ff2494f0cacb8e3efa0":["a:17:{s:2:\"to\";s:29:\"margaret.coyle@familylife.com\";s:7:\"subject\";s:69:\"[FamilyLife - A Cru Ministry] Overcoming Incivility: Heather Holleman\";s:12:\"show_subject\";s:2:\"no\";s:6:\"widget\";i:0;s:14:\"block_template\";N;s:19:\"block_template_part\";N;s:2:\"id\";i:280665;s:18:\"submit_button_text\";s:6:\"Submit\";s:14:\"customThankyou\";s:0:\"\";s:21:\"customThankyouHeading\";s:26:\"Your message has been sent\";s:21:\"customThankyouMessage\";s:30:\"Thank you for your 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FamilyLife Today, Dave and Ann Wilson host professor Heather Holleman. She describes researched-based techniques for rediscovering conversations that connect us in a world thrashed by incivility,.","meta_box":{"show_notes":"<ul>\n<li>Sign up to receive Amberly Neese\u2019s five-week video series, \u201c<a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/content_offer\/finding-common-ground\/\">Moving Toward Each Other in the Middle of a Divisive World<\/a>.\u201d Amberly, author and comedian, offers insights on fostering peace in our communities despite differing views.<\/li>\n<li>Find resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/past-radio-resources\/\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Find more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<\/li>\n<li>Help others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Check out all the FamilyLife's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2024-10-25.pdf","transcript_content":"<p>FamilyLife Today\u00ae with Dave and Ann Wilson - Web Version Transcript<\/p>\n<p>This content has been generated by an artificial intelligence language model. While we strive for accuracy and quality, please note that the information provided will most likely not be entirely error-free or up-to-date. We recommend independently verifying the content with the originally-released audio. This transcript is provided for your personal use and general information purposes only. References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. We do not assume any responsibility or liability for the use or interpretation of this content.<\/p>\n<p>Overcoming Incivility<\/p>\n<p>Guest:Heather Holleman<\/p>\n<p>From the series:Six Conversations in an Isolated World (Day 2 of 2)<\/p>\n<p>Air date:October 25, 2024<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I feel like I\u2019m sitting in the studio with two of the best conversationalists in one room.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Well, it\u2019s not me.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Oh, yes, it is! You are amazing. I marvel at how you draw out people anywhere\/everywhere: walking down the sidewalk in our neighborhood, in the airport. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Does it bug you?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes. [Laughter] At times, I\u2019m like, \u201cCan we just\u2026\u201d I mean, you\u2019re so good; and you ask so many great, great questions. People want to talk to you, and I just leave. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Ann: You\u2019re so funny. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: Welcome to FamilyLife Today where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Shelby Abbott and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com. This is FamilyLife Today<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Heather Holleman is back with us. She wrote the book on how to have great conversations.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Oh, Heather,\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Heather: I did.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014you have been such a joy. I feel like we could talk to you forever.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: Well, I feel the same. See, we have a loving connection already.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: We do.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: We have warmth; we\u2019ve increased our happiness.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Let\u2019s talk again about The Six Conversations: Pathways to Connecting in an Age of Isolation and Incivility. We are living in this. Of course, you know this; that\u2019s why you wrote it.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And you have your doctorate; you\u2019re working as a professor with students, so you see this every day.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Is our culture changing? Is this something that\u2019s more difficult now than it has been?<\/p>\n<p>Heather: I think it is more difficult now; because I use the word, \u201cincivility,\u201d to talk about a particular cultural moment. Students worry about cancel culture; they worry about saying the wrong thing. Some researchers call it the \u201coutrage industry\u201d; that we\u2019ve addicted ourselves to controversy, and anger, and divisiveness.<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s a real opportunity to figure out how to reconnect in loving ways. And when you do that, you actually have a greater chance for social change, I feel like. It\u2019s just something I care about deeply is helping students feel a sense of belonging and connection. Right now, there\u2019s a lot of fear of connecting in conversation because of the cultural moment.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, I feel that. That\u2019s what I wanted to ask you: the incivility is real; so sometimes, you just resist entering a conversation.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: Right.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I feel like I\u2019m always going to offend someone.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: Right; right. We\u2019re afraid of offending people; we\u2019re afraid of them judging us.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And you\u2019re just hoping the conversation doesn\u2019t go anywhere near politics\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Heather: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014and I\u2019m not talking just strangers.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: Right.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I\u2019m talking about our own family members.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: \u2014friends and family. We\u2019ve blocked people on Facebook\u00ae; people are deleting accounts. They won\u2019t go home for holidays, because their family voted differently or believes something different about vaccines. We\u2019ve also seen churches torn apart.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Oh, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: And that is the saddest for me, I think, just the division happening.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019ve learned, through the process of researching this book, really, never to be afraid of a conversation again because\u2014 \u201cIf you are curious,\u201d \u201cBelieve the best,\u201d \u201cExpress concern,\u201d and \u201cShare your life,\u201d\u2014you really are in a great mindset to just listen to people:<\/p>\n<p>Figure out why they believe what they believe.<\/p>\n<p>Try to understand them: try to understand what they want; what they\u2019re passionate about.<\/p>\n<p>And also, to get to the personal.<\/p>\n<p>A lot of times, we talk about politics; but really, maybe they have a child at home who\u2019s sick that they\u2019re worried about; or maybe, they\u2019re nervous about an upcoming decision. You can move it from the realm of heavier topics to something closer to home, and that can help form a warm connection.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Why is this so important to you?<\/p>\n<p>Heather: I just deeply care about helping students belong; and probably, because I grew up longing for connection and never figuring out how to make a connection with someone. I would use all sorts of tactics, like flattery; or I just wanted people to like me, and I didn\u2019t understand what a loving connection was\u2014it\u2019s that\u2014and it\u2019s that I know the research behind wellbeing and, also, spiritual health. We need warm connections. God created us for that, and we really reflect Him when we\u2019re in loving connection with other people.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I was going to say: we\u2019ve been talking to you on prior episodes, and you\u2019re an evangelist.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: I love talking about Jesus, yes; it\u2019s my favorite thing, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: You do, and I feel like you create this pathway of the gospel that\u2019s so easy, because you\u2019re not threatening. The way you approach people, it opens the door to hear about Jesus and your faith. You\u2019re bold about it, but you\u2019re really gracious.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: Well, part of it is, when you approach someone, and you have a loving connection with them already\u2014because, again, the mindset: \u201cYou believe the best,\u201d You\u2019re curious,\u201d \u201cYou express concern,\u201d and \u201cYou\u2019re willing to share your life,\u201d\u2014the gospel presentation doesn\u2019t come off like a sales pitch or like\/it\u2019s just natural. You\u2019re just sharing your life, and people are asking questions.<\/p>\n<p>I have a lot of friends in my life, who are atheists, or from a different religious position; and it\u2019s never hostile. It\u2019s always just rooted in curiosity: \u201cLet me share what Christians believe.\u201d It\u2019s wonderful to see how God works in those moments and how people come to faith, because they\u2019ve had a loving conversation.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: There\u2019s a lot I want to talk about; your book is so practical. You used the word just a minute ago that I want to hear your thoughts on: \u201clistening.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Heather: Yes; oh, I learned so much; I was a terrible listener.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Really?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, I think we live in a culture that we don\u2019t listen well. You can\u2019t express concern to somebody if you haven\u2019t listened to their concerns.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Because we\u2019re ready with our retort of what we\u2019re going to say next.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: In marriage, it\u2019s huge.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: It\u2019s huge.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: We don\u2019t listen, so coach us up.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: I will tell you: this was my favorite chapter to write, because no one ever taught me what I\u2019m listening for. This is going to change your life: \u201cWhen someone is speaking to you, listen for what their core values are, and say back to them what you\u2019re hearing.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>For example, I asked my neighbor, who I did not have a warm connection with yet. He was walking his dog, and I said, \u201cWhat are your plans for the weekend?\u201d He said, \u201cWell, I\u2019m really upset, because my son was supposed to come; but he changed the plan; and then I thought we were going to have these seats, but then this got messed up.\u201d He was going on and on about all his plans changing.<\/p>\n<p>I looked at him, and I said, \u201cIt really sounds like you value order in your schedule and having the itinerary in place.\u201d He paused and looked at me, and said, \u201cI do; I really do.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: You\u2019re like a therapist! [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Heather: And then, he said, \u201cWalk with me\u201d; he was ready to talk.<\/p>\n<p>And then, I tried it again with a businesswoman that I really wanted to form a bond with\u2014we were acquaintances\u2014but I thought, \u201cYou know what? I want to connect with her more.\u201d I asked her about her day. She was talking about projects that she had completed, where she didn\u2019t feel like she had done her best work. I kept noticing: \u201cShe keeps talking about whether something is her best work.\u201d I said to this woman, \u201cYou know, it really sounds like you value excellence, and you don\u2019t know what to do if you feel like you\u2019ve turned something in that isn\u2019t your best work.\u201d And she said, \u201cI do.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: She said, \u201cWalk with me.\u201d [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Heather: \u201cI really do.\u201d No, this is what she said: \u201cWill you come to my office next week? Talking to you is the best part of my week.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: She did not!<\/p>\n<p>Heather: And now, we are dear friends; we have lunch every week.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You didn\u2019t say, \u201cFor $150 an hour I\u2019ll do that\u201d?<\/p>\n<p>Heather: No; it is core values. I tried it with people, who are in a hard situation\u2014people who are grieving, people who are in trauma situations. A woman ran up to me in the grocery store and kind of threw herself on me. She was crying.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:This isn't a stranger.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: No, this is a friend. But in situations like that, I thought, \u201cOkay, just listen.\u201d But what am I listening for? And so as she shared what was going on with her, I said to her, \u201cIt sounds like you really value being prepared, and right now you feel unprepared.\u201d She stood back and my daughters were watching this. She stood back and she was like, \u201cThat's exactly it.\u201d And I said, \u201cWell, can I help you get prepared? What can I do?\u201d Remember, express concern.<\/p>\n<p>Well, my daughters afterwards, they were like, \u201cMom, you are like a genius. How do you?\u201d because they've observed me in all these situations. And I said, \u201cLook, girls, you're listening for what you really see people valuing. And when you put words to it, they feel so loved. They feel so seen. It's wonderful.\u201d And it was funny, we were at the doctor and the doctor actually said something about my core value, and we just started laughing so hard.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:I want to hear it.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: Okay. Well, I was with my daughter at the doctor. He did the thing he needed to do in five minutes. He said, I'm not even going to make you come back in. I'm going to call you tomorrow, and the prescription's waiting for you. He said, \u201cI know you value efficiency.\u201d I said, \u201cI a hundred percent do.\u201d I deeply value efficiency. It's the military daughter in me, I think. I do not like wasting people's time. I don't like my time being, it's probably a sin issue. I love efficiency. So people bless me when they help me become efficient. It's really weird, but I feel loved when people are like, Heather, you really value efficiency. How can I help make this faster for you? Isn't that weird?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Well, this whole conversation I'm going through in my head of conversations in our home.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And to recognize the core value and empathize, like \u201cOh, it...\u201d I\u2019m thinking that would change so much.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014as a parent.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: Yes, it does.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: That\u2019s what I\u2019m saying. Let\u2019s say, for instance,\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014as a husband, as a wife\u2014I mean, come on.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I\u2019m sitting here thinking of when I\u2019m driving with Dave: he is complaining about all the drivers and how they\u2019re driving wrong. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Dave: How are we going here? Go anywhere else but here.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: Because he values strategy; yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: That\u2019s what I was going to say. I\u2019m complaining that he\u2019s always complaining about everyone driving; and so instead of complaining, I should empathize and think, \u201cWhat\u2019s his core value?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You should compliment me.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: And you value positive communication. You don\u2019t like environments of complaining, it sounds like.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Oh, no.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: Like you don\u2019t like it when people\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014not when it happens every day and every time you\u2019re in the car.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: Yes. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>But with children, I\u2019ll tell you: children\/they will light up; because often, they don\u2019t even have words to explain their own personality. My daughter loves beautiful things: she loves clothes; she loves having her room so beautiful. I told her the other day; you really love aesthetic\u2014like using that word for her. \u201cYou love beauty. This is how God made you; you love things that look wonderful.\u201d Like she\u2019s probably going to be some kind of interior designer or something.<\/p>\n<p>My other daughter deeply values science and the scientific process and logical things. So just acknowledging that, \u201cYou like order. Things do not go well for you if something doesn't seem logical to you.\u201d So things like that, it really makes a difference\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: So Dave, now when we're driving, I'm saying you really, I'm going to say\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Don't even try. I am in sin when we're driving.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:No, but it is true. Did you call it strategy?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I'm strategic.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: Well, I think the football person in you\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: The thing I love\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Heather: \u2014and the sermon you\u2014go ahead. Tell me what you love.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:The thing I loved about football, still to this day, was the strategic plan.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:I love dissecting a defense and trying to find the weakness and attack it more than anything else. It was like, \u201cOh, I could be an offensive coordinator. I probably couldn't\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Heather: Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u2014but I love that part of it. So yeah, you're right about strategic part. And that's what happens in the car.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: You know how they should be.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:You could easily \u201cTurn right on red.\u201d I just, but I'm in sin because I'm selfish. But I want to ask this. So if we're not listening well, is it a selfish, arrogance, pride issue?<\/p>\n<p>Heather: I think so.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Because if I\u2019m talking all the time, and I\u2019m not really taking time to listen to you, I think I\u2019m very selfish; it\u2019s like it\u2019s hard work to listen.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: It is. Well, it\u2019s a supreme act of love to give someone your full attention.<\/p>\n<p>I did find a wonderful definition of arrogance that\u2019s in the book;\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Oh, wonderful! [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Oh, boy.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: \u2014it says that: \u201cArrogant people really believe that they don\u2019t need anything from other people. They don\u2019t believe other people can teach them anything. They walk around superior.\u201d It really is a disposition of the heart, where you put yourself above other people.<\/p>\n<p>What I love about The Six Conversations is, when you\u2019re curious, and have the disposition that you\u2019re going to value others above yourself\u2014think about the end of Philippians 2, Jesus taking on the nature of a servant\u2014it really makes things so wonderful when you do that.<\/p>\n<p>Also, when you\u2019re listening for core values, you also have to be humble, because someone\u2019s core value may be the opposite of what you value. In my marriage, I value efficiency; my husband values slow, deliberative thought processes. He will take two weeks to make a decision that I already made an hour ago. He knows my core value; I know his core value: we have to figure out how to meet in the middle.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Wow.<\/p>\n<p>So yeah, we should come to one of your conferences and talk about\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Well, we have a little bit of that too.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: Yeah. You guys have that problem where you have opposite core values?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Dave\u2019s just a little\u2014more of a processor. He likes to follow\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave:I'm always doing this. \u201cWell, on the one hand we could; on the other\u2014\"<\/p>\n<p>Ann:Like, \u201cNo, this is it.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Heather: I already made this decision.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes, and I'm already wanting to move in it.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: But what we were saying earlier, I was thinking, \u201cOkay, in a conflict,--\"could be a marital conflict, could be with your kids, could be any conflict\u2014\u201clistening is so important,\u201d and here's what happens, I think, to your point of arrogance is \u201cI don't want to listen to what you're feeling or saying right now because I know better what you should be doing and thinking.\u201d And I'm going to slam that down on you, like, \u201cWhy are you?\u201d Isn't that arrogance? It's like, man, conflicts could go so much further if we just shut up and listen, to start.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: And that was me, because I was a national debater\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Oh, boy! [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Heather: \u2014and won debates\u2014like I was at Harvard quarter finals\/like went to camps\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: What?!\u2014Ahh!<\/p>\n<p>Heather: \u2014Dartmouth, Michigan.<\/p>\n<p>When we got married\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Oh, you\u2019d be terrible to be married to.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: Oh, I was. [Laughter] You need Ash here; you need to bring Ash on your program, because he\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: We will.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: We\u2019re bringing him back.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: \u2014the number one thing he says, in an argument, is: \u201cOkay, you\u2019re going to win this debate; and it\u2019s going to be terrible for our marriage.\u201d I can win any argument; it\u2019s not good for our marriage. I stopped doing that; occasionally, he\u2019ll say, \u201cYou\u2019re doing it again\u201d; because I, like you: \u201cI already see the problems in your thinking,\u201d and \u201cHere\u2019s my five-point rebuttal to why everything you\u2019re saying is wrong.\u201d So now, just understanding his core values.<\/p>\n<p>It kind of helps me, too, when I researched what the goal of conversation is.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I was going to say: \u201cLet\u2019s get into those three fresh goals for conversation.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Heather: Yes, because a lot of people think: \u201cOkay; I\u2019m at a party. I ask these questions; but then, how do I end the conversation?\u201d or \u201cWhat leads to the warm connection?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s three things that are really profoundly biblical. In every conversation, you should be thinking:<\/p>\n<p>\u201cHow can I encourage this person?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>\u201cHow can I help them in their own personal growth goals?\u201d\u2014like: \u201cHow can I come alongside them?\u201d\u2014projects or goals.<\/p>\n<p>And the research shows that, if you can bring someone to a state of awe or marveling about something, it creates a warm connection; and that makes you feel less lonely.<\/p>\n<p>If you and I went outside and saw a beautiful bird together, or like an alligator\u2014because don\u2019t you guys have these here?\u2014[Laughter]\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Oh, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: \u2014if we, together, were like, \u201cCan you believe we saw that?\u201d we would feel closer, less lonely, and it also increases creativity when you\u2019re in a state of awe.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Because we marveled.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: We marveled together. Yes. We talked about this earlier: how you do that when you go on walks? You see the deer and the leaves. I have a mentor who she'll make me stop and look at flowers and she'll sing the Hallelujah chorus. And we feel so close after those walks because we've marveled together. It\u2019s a whole different way of communicating than what we\u2019re used to in the culture now.<\/p>\n<p>I love friends, who are wanting to know: \u201cHow do you want to grow this year?\u201d \u201cWhat projects are you working on?\u201d And then, they express concern\u2014it\u2019s called \u201cinvestment\u201d\u2014by them saying, \u201cHow can we help you achieve your goals? What do you need?\u201d That\u2019s wonderful friendship; that\u2019s wonderful connection.<\/p>\n<p>The research study that came to my email on diseases of despair in the state of Pennsylvania\u2014so alcohol, suicide\u2014they call it \u201cdiseases of despair\u201d; they\u2019re linking that to one of four key factors. One was just: \u201cLack of social connection,\u201d\u2014so having someone who knows what you\u2019re working on; what you\u2019re thinking about\u2014that\u2019s going to help them in whatever they\u2019re struggling with.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I\u2019m imagining parents, who have their teens in their bedrooms on their devices for hours and hours at a time; but their kids are struggling with depression and anxiety.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: Oh, yes. The depression and anxiety; it\u2019s never been higher, in my opinion, at the college campus.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: How would you encourage those parents, knowing what you just said: \u201cHow could they pull them out of that situation?\u201d You have girls that are 19 and 17?<\/p>\n<p>Heather: Yes, so we do like our phones. I\u2019m not a parent who makes them not have their phone, because I also enjoy TikTok\u00ae and social media. But one thing I tell my girls is\u2014just the research behind dopamine addictions with your phone\u2014like you have to detox from that, because you\u2019re just getting a dopamine hit every time. Your brain is really addicted to your phone\u2014we all know this\u2014so having times when you detox from it.<\/p>\n<p>We walk every day together, and we don\u2019t have our\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: You walk with your girls?<\/p>\n<p>Heather: I walk with my girls every day; we call it \u201cTaking Loops.\u201d We try to do three miles a day in the afternoon or evening. I love walking because you can do the \u201cawe walk with marvel.\u201d You can practice the conversation questions and just tell them it is a dopamine detox that we are doing for your brain, so you're going to do better with your homework and sleeping, and just show them. There are YouTube videos and research reports on how to kind of detox from your phone.<\/p>\n<p>The other thing you can do is actually use the phone for good conversation. You could say, what was the funniest thing that you saw today on social media? So it's engaged in what they're looking at on the phone or doing on the phone. We do that a lot with the older girls. Of course, I was much more parental and controlling when they were younger, but now that they're\u2014one is out of the house and\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: They\u2019re adults.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: \u2014yeah, we just laugh about it and talk about what makes something funny? What were you thinking about when you saw that video? How'd you decide to do this? Or whatever. You can go down the list of The Six Conversations to do that. What\u2019s going to happen is: they\u2019re going to enjoy the conversations so much that it, in itself, will be a pleasurable experience, which is a dopamine reward. They may find that they love the warm connection and will come out of their room a little more\/come down to talk.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:Listening to you, Heather, what just hit me, right or wrong is where my brain went. We are so busy running so fast. \u201cWe,\u201d meaning sort of most of us in the culture. You taking walks with your daughters means conversation doesn\u2019t happen unless there\u2019s time\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Heather: \u2014lots of time.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014to slow down and focus, whether it\u2019s on a walk or sitting at a dinner table. Most families don\u2019t even have dinner together anymore. They\u2019re just running from one sports event to one school event. You have to decide: \u201cWe have to pace our life in a way that we have time to have a conversation.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Heather: Even if it\u2019s 15 minutes, the benefits of a daily walk are indisputable and outstanding for your health.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: What do you do in the winter?<\/p>\n<p>Heather: We walk in the winter. I got yak tracks for the ice. We walk in the winter. I do it for my own health and weight management, but my daughter does it for stress because it regulates cortisol\/insulin when you go on a walk. I mean, I think the research shows you it has to be about 20 minutes to get the effect, but you're really helping your body.<\/p>\n<p>And even if nobody's talking right away, your child will open up. If you are walking, just try it out. Go on a walk and eventually someone's going to say something and it's fun. I never pressure it, but sometimes I'll say, \u201cWhat have you been thinking about?\u201d Or with kids that are really stressed out, I'll say, \u201cIs there a thought going through your mind that you just can't get rid of?\u201d They love that question because so many kids are just spinning in anxiety, and they want someone to listen. And I love it. We love our walks. We've been doing it since Covid, since 20, actually 2019, early 2019, we started doing our daily loop.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I remember one of my favorite things, when the boys were teenagers\u2014again, they\u2019re married now with grandkids\u2014but we\u2019d be walking in their room, high school years, and saying, \u201cHey, tell me what you\u2019re listening to.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Heather: Yes, yes; music.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:And then many parents would say, \u201cOkay, and then I'm going to tell them they shouldn't be listening to that.\u201d Mine was, \u201cLet's look at the lyrics.\u201d I grabbed my guitar. Let's learn this song.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: That\u2019s so cool.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Well you would even say\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: What are they trying to say in this lyric?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And you would say, \u201cTell me why you love this so much.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: That\u2019s a great question.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: That\u2019s such a good question.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Some of the music I hated, but it didn\u2019t matter; it\u2019s like: \u201cThis isn\u2019t about me. \u201cWhy do you like that?\u2019 \u2018What\u2019s in there?\u2019\u201d That was a sweet moment.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: I heard a story of a youth pastor, who came to faith because his grandma would walk into the room, and get on the floor with him, and listen to his Metallica albums with him. [Laughter] This sweet Christian grandma would listen to all the heavy metal and say that: \u201cWhy do you love it?\u201d He felt so loved and accepted by her. I love that.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I remember asking our boys, \u201cTell me what you\u2019ve been thinking about.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Heather: Yes, that is so great: \u201cWhat have you been thinking about?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: But one of my sons, he's our oldest, he's very techie. He's very analytical. We asked this at the dinner table, \u201cWhat do you feel like you think about the most?\u201d which is an interesting question. And he said\u2014I was like, \u201cWhat in the world?\u201d He said, \u201cI think almost all day long, I think about how things work.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Heather: Physical processes; that's amazing.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I was like that to me\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: That is so him.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: It\u2019s so him.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: That's amazing.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And that's why we call them every day. \u201cHelp us. We don't understand how this thing works.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: But isn't that fascinating?<\/p>\n<p>Heather: No, I can see that. I can tell what my daughters are probably thinking about all day long.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Really?<\/p>\n<p>Heather: Yeah, because one\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Part of it's their gifts and their passions too.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: Oh, that's good. I wonder, do you know the answer to that?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Of what?<\/p>\n<p>Heather: That question. That's such a good question, Ann. I'm like, \u201cWhat do I think?\u201d I do think about theology all day long. I think about how God's going to work something for my good. Is that weird? Is that self-focused?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: It shows me that you\u2019ve been in the Word a lot.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: Well, I\u2019m like, \u201cThis bad thing is happening...\u201d For example, I have to fly home tonight; and there\u2019s a storm. I\u2019m already anticipating; I\u2019m like, \u201cLord, please, if I have to spend the night in Philadelphia, it is going to challenge my theology.\u201d [Laughter] You know, I really think about what I believe about God.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014the logistics.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, it\u2019s because it\u2019s not going to be efficient.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: That\u2019s what it is; because other people are like: \u201cHeather, just enjoy the free hotel stay. Get the gift voucher. Go get yourself some Smashburger\u00ae.\u201d [Laughter] I\u2019m like, \u201cBut it is wasting\u2026\u201d You\u2019re absolutely right:\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u201cIt\u2019s wasting time.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Heather: \u2014travel is not fun for me, because it is not efficient. My favorite thing is when the pilot says, \u201cWe\u2019re going to arrive ten minutes before schedule.\u201d [Laughter] I\u2019m like, \u201cYes!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Dave, what do you think about?<\/p>\n<p>Heather: Yes, what would you say?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I don\u2019t want to talk about me. I want to\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Oh, come on. What do you think?<\/p>\n<p>Heather: What do you think about?\u2014is it strategy?\u2014you think about how things could be better?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, I do; that\u2019s it.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: This is a great question. I\u2019m going to ask my students this: \u201cWhat do you think about most?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: In some ways, I hate that my mind critiques things, like this broadcast,\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Heather: You\u2019ll be like, \u201cWhat could we have done better?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014like that sermon, like that guitar solo, like the worship leader, like the sound\u2014everything I\u2019m like analyzing. Sometimes, when I\u2019m in worship, as a participant\u2014not playing in the band\u2014I have to just block it out, and go, \u201cEnjoy this moment. Don\u2019t critique how the acoustic guy is playing his thing\u2014don\u2019t listen\u2014just worship God.\u201d So maybe that\u2019s it; I don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: Yes; well, if someone said to you: \u201cDave, what did you think of that worship set? How would you have done it better?\u201d\u2014would that feel like a loving question to you; because then, you could share?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Oh, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: He would love that, because he always knows the answer.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: You would love that. I\u2019m going to remember this; afterwards, I\u2019m going to be like, \u201cDave, what did you think of that interview? What could we have done better?\u201d And you\u2019ll be like, \u201cOh, walk with me.\u201d [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And I actually like it when people come up to me, and say, \u201cHere\u2019s a thought on how this interview\/this thing could have been better.\u201d I\u2019m not defensive; I\u2019m like,\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: We both like that.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: Oh, that\u2019s great.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u201cHelp me,\u201d\u2014if you saw something in that sermon, whatever\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: You like feedback.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014\u201cI have to preach this three times today. Make the next two better than the first one.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes; people will laugh\u2014because our church was doing three services in one [building]\u2014so I would listen to the first one from home. I would send him a text, like, \u201cHey, if you said it like this\u2026\u201d or \u201c\u2026you added this\u2026\u201d Dave loved that.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Oh, it was so helpful.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: It would come up on his iPad\u00ae as he\u2019s speaking.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: I love that; that\u2019s so good.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Hey, I want to end with this\u2014because one of the things that I drew out of your book, when you said fresh goals of conversation: \u201cMutually encourage,\u201d \u201cAid personal growth,\u201d and \u201cTo marvel,\u201d\u2014my first thought, when you said, \u201cTo marvel,\u201d was: \u201cAs we have conversations with people, and we ask questions, and we listen well, we\u2019re going to marvel at them,\u201d\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Heather: Ohh; yes!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: That\u2019s what I thought too.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014which is both, because you get into: \u201cMarvel together.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>But there\u2019s a point, where you\u2019re like\u2014when you were just talking about the way your brain works\u2014I was like, \u201cWow! That is\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014\u201cLook what God has done.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I went, \u201cAhhh!\u201d [Laughter] I thought, \u201cWhen you have a great conversation with somebody, and it\u2019s not about you; it\u2019s really about: \u2018I want to consider their interests more important than my own.\u2019\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Heather: Yes; that\u2019s beautiful.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: At some point, you go\u2014like you look at your wife\u2014and you go, \u201cShe\u2019s amazing.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: Yes; \u201cGod made her so awesome.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u201cAnd I\u2019d forgotten that\u2014but I saw it again\u2014because I asked, and I listened.\u201d That could really enhance a marriage.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And I feel like, too, with our kids\u2014I feel like that piece for me\u2014there was a point, when our kids were younger, that I wanted to mold them into who I wanted them to be. I would have never said that; but really, I had dreams and expectations of who they would become.<\/p>\n<p>When I stopped that, and I started seeing and marveling of who God already created them to be, and what He had put in them, it was like a worship\u2014not of them\u2014but of: \u201cGod, look what You\u2019ve done.\u201d I think we started believing, and seeing, and pointing out, and marveling at these magnificent beings that God let us parent.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: Yes; that\u2019s good.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Well, here\u2019s a concept that we learned, early in our marriage, way back from a guy named Gary Smalley.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: Love Gary Smalley.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Now his son, Greg, is doing marriage stuff; but Gary taught on honor\u2014and the Hebrew word, \u201cHonor your mother and father,\u201d\u2014the word literally means \u201cto bend the knee.\u201d His point was: \u201cWhen do you bend knees?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>In some cultures, you bend the knee when you\u2019re in the presence of somebody extremely valuable. He goes, \u201cThat\u2019s what honor is\u2014when you\u2019re with your wife, when you\u2019re with your kids, when you\u2019re with a total stranger\u2014when you honor them, you\u2019re saying, \u2018I\u2019m in the presence of someone extremely valuable.\u2019\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Heather: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: We call a judge \u201cthe honorable judge,\u201d because\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Heather: That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014they have a position. You don\u2019t have to like somebody or even love them; you honor who they are, created in the image of God.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014the image-bearers.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: That\u2019s huge.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: That\u2019s what our conversation could say to somebody: \u201cI\u2019m in the presence of somebody extremely valuable.\u201d If they felt that every time they were around us, whew!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Heather, you have been such a treat and joy.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: It\u2019s just been so fun.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: So fun; thank you for being with us.<\/p>\n<p>Heather: Well, you\u2019re welcome. Thank you for having me.<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: I\u2019m Shelby Abbott, and you've been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson with Heather Holleman on FamilyLife Today. I have known Heather for a very long time. We've been in the Campus Ministry of Cru\u00ae for a long time. We've been authors together; we've been friends. I know her and Ashley, her husband, and she is just the real deal. I hope you have really gleaned a lot from her and been inspired to have better conversations with the people in your life.<\/p>\n<p>Heather's written a book called The Six Conversations: Pathways to Connecting in an Age of Isolation and Incivility. You can get your copy of Heather's book right now by going online to FamilyLifeToday.com, or you could find a link to it in our show notes. Or feel free to give us a call at 800-358-6329 to request your copy. Again, that number is 800-F as in family, L as in life, and then the word, TODAY.<\/p>\n<p>And speaking of isolation and incivility, we're living in times that's really just a lot of tension going on in our culture. There's a lot of division in social media, family gatherings, and maybe even around your own kitchen table, which is why I'm excited to say that there is a resource for you. There's something helpful for you.<\/p>\n<p>We at FamilyLife\u00ae have partnered with our friend, author, and comedian Amberly Neese on a video series called Moving Toward Each Other in the Middle of a Divisive World. In this, Amberly guides us on how to build peace in our own backyards when our differing thoughts and opinions and beliefs threaten to create division. So you can sign up in the show notes or go to FamilyLife.com\/FindingCommonGround to get our video series. Again, that's FamilyLife.com\/FindingCommonGround.<\/p>\n<p>Now, coming up next week, highly Happy Couples know Less is more, but what does that practically mean? Well, we'll dive into that next week, and it will enhance your marriage.<\/p>\n<p>On behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I'm Shelby Abbott. We'll see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>FamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife, a Cru Ministry.<\/p>\n<p>Helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.<\/p>\n<p>If you\u2019ve benefited from the FamilyLife Today transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs of producing them and making them available online?<\/p>\n<p>Copyright \u00a9 2024 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.<\/p>\n<p>www.FamilyLife.com<\/p>\n","theme_header_position":"Sticky","post_header_is_sticky":"default","is_header_overlay":"0"},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/280665","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/47000"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=280665"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/280865"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=280665"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=280665"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=280665"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=280665"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=280665"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=280665"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}