{"id":280634,"date":"2025-03-31T03:15:00","date_gmt":"2025-03-31T07:15:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/the-anatomy-of-an-affair-dave-carder\/"},"modified":"2025-06-17T11:04:49","modified_gmt":"2025-06-17T15:04:49","slug":"the-anatomy-of-an-affair-dave-carder","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/the-anatomy-of-an-affair-dave-carder\/","title":{"rendered":"The Anatomy of an Affair: Dave Carder"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>Counselor Dave Carder, author of The Anatomy of An Affair, explains how attractions and addictions develop and how to guard your marriage against them.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Counselor Dave Carder, author of The Anatomy of An Affair, explains how attractions and addictions develop and how to guard your marriage against them. Show Notes and Resources Try Dave Carder&#8217;s marriage counseling sessions now. Save 50% on Weekend to Rem&#8230;<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":47000,"featured_media":280866,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"audio","audio_file":"https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/9a89d962-f917-4dea-acc0-b154012020ed\/audio.mp3","podmotor_file_id":"","podmotor_episode_id":"","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:28:54","filesize":"26.50M","filesize_raw":"","date_recorded":"2025-03-31 03:15:00","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2903],"tags":[2411],"podcast_series":[8598],"cwp_profile":[3383],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-280634","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-infidelity","tag-anatomy-of-an-affair","podcast_series-the-anatomy-of-an-affair-dave-carder","cwp_profile-dave-carder","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/04\/image-scaled.jpg?w=1024","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/280634\/the-anatomy-of-an-affair-dave-carder","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/280634\/the-anatomy-of-an-affair-dave-carder","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"ZZm1nz1jxC\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/the-anatomy-of-an-affair-dave-carder\/\">The Anatomy of an Affair: Dave Carder<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/the-anatomy-of-an-affair-dave-carder\/embed\/#?secret=ZZm1nz1jxC\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;The Anatomy of an Affair: Dave Carder&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"ZZm1nz1jxC\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"uagb_featured_image_src":{"full":["https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/04\/image-scaled.jpg",1024,1024,true]},"uagb_author_info":{"display_name":"Margaret","author_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/author\/margaret-coylefamilylife-com\/"},"uagb_comment_info":0,"uagb_excerpt":"Counselor Dave Carder, author of The Anatomy of An Affair, explains how attractions and addictions develop and how to guard your marriage against them. Show Notes and Resources Try Dave Carder's marriage counseling sessions now. Save 50% on Weekend to Rem...","meta_box":{"show_notes":"<ul>\n<li>Try Dave Carder's<a href=\"http:\/\/davecarder.com\/\"> marriage counseling sessions now.<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Find resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/Products.aspx?categoryid=130\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Find more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<\/li>\n<li>Help others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Check out all the FamilyLife podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2025-03-31.pdf","transcript_content":"<p>The Anatomy of an Affair<\/p>\n<p>Guest: Dave Carder<br \/>\nFrom the series: The Anatomy of an Affair (Day 1 of 2)<br \/>\nAir date: March 31, 2025<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Okay, I think people might be surprised: as a pastor of 30 years, the number-one call that I would get from someone who wanted to meet with me is on what? Now, you know what the answer is because of what we\u2019re talking about today. But if you didn\u2019t have any idea, what do you think my assistant would come in and say?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: If it\u2019s a couple, I would say an affair. If it\u2019s a guy, I would say porn.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I\u2019m Ann Wilson.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And I'm Dave Wilson. And you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com. This is FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Man, my wife knows everything. [Laughter] You\u2019ve been married to me too long.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Because I\u2019ve been married to you a long time.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Would you have thought that, though, if you didn\u2019t know what we were talking about today?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I might think that just based on friendships and relationships with women and the pain that I\u2019ve seen in marriages.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, and as I think about that\u2014I\u2019m talking late \u201880s\/\u201990s to today\u2014affairs have been a part of marriage from the beginning. People want to figure out: \u201cCan we make it; can we save this thing?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u201cAnd how do I not fall into this; can my marriage be protected from an affair?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, we\u2019re going to talk about that today with Dave Carder. Dave Carder is, in my mind, the expert on this\u2014not because he\u2019s had an affair\u2014but you\u2019ve written about this and studied this. Man, your books have helped so many couples, Dave. Welcome to FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Thanks a lot. I\u2019m looking forward to this.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: We are too.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You have been talking about this subject since when?<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: I started in \u201977, when I tracked down my senior pastor, who ran off with another woman.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Wow!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Really?<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Tell us that story.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: You want to hear the story?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes; I read it in your book, and I found it fascinating\u2014because you had several stories like that\u2014that got you to say, \u201cI\u2019ve got to start jumping into this.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: I would never have decided to do what I\u2019m doing today or what I\u2019ve done. Actually, I was on a road trip with a bunch of Christian teenagers, doing Backyard Bible studies, and tent evangelism, and that kind of stuff; came back on a Saturday. Went to church early on Sunday morning\u2014doing youth ministries and stuff like that all through the day\u2014went home Sunday night after the service broadcast. Got a phone call from my senior pastor\u2019s wife, who was crying hysterically on the phone. Drove over to the parsonage; walked into the house. Three teenagers were over on that couch, hugging themselves, just sobbing. The wife was at the kitchen table with her head in her hands. Two of those kids had been with me on this mission trip. We talked a while.<\/p>\n<p>Basically, I began to think to myself, \u201cI know more about this than I think I do\u201d; I didn\u2019t know that I knew anything about it. From there\u2014about 11 o\u2019clock that night\u2014I drove to an apartment building, where I used to have Bible studies in the bottom floor every other Thursday night with all the boys in the apartment complex. I crawled on my hands and knees up to the first floor plate glass window; because I was so afraid of being seen, being viewed as somebody\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: So you\u2019re sneaking.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes, I\u2019m sneaking over there.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes, you are.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: I get up in that window, and look up in that window, and look inside. There\u2019s not a stitch of furniture in there. I had just been there two weeks ago; that was an apartment that a single mom had with two teenaged boys. That began to put pieces together in my head.<\/p>\n<p>I went home that night\u2014went to bed; got up early the next morning\u2014went to the school bus stop. Sure enough, there were some of my boys from my Bible study there. I asked them, \u201cWhat happened to Such-and-such?\u201d \u201cOh, they moved,\u201d \u201cWhat do you mean they moved?\u201d \u201cWell, they moved.\u201d \u201cWell, how\u2019d they move? Where did they go?\u201d They said, \u201cThey wouldn\u2019t tell us where they were going, but they had a big U-Haul truck out here.\u201d I immediately knew where the only U-Haul Truck store was in town. I get in my car and drive to the U-Haul truck store. Basically\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014you\u2019re like a spy.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: No, I\u2019m mad at this point in time.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: I\u2019m really angry at this guy if this is the truth. I go to the U-Haul truck store, and I say, \u201cI think my senior pastor has rented a U-Haul truck. Can I look at the invoice and make sure all of the details are correct?\u201d He gave them to me. I looked; and sure enough\u2014Dallas, Texas\u2014he rented a U-Haul truck to Dallas, Texas.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: So he took off.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes, he just took off.<\/p>\n<p>I drove home, packed a suitcase; drove 90 miles to an airport; bought an airplane ticket and went down to Dallas-Fort Worth. I waited a whole week in a hotel\u2014sat in the 14th floor with binoculars\u2014watching the U-Haul truck store right down below me. He didn\u2019t show up. I had to go home for a week. I took his picture down to the U-Haul truck guy, and said, \u201cHe is bringing a truck in here; I know it will probably be on Monday. Here\u2019s my address and phone number. I want you to call me when you see him. Tell him\u201d\u2014God will forgive you if you have to lie\u2014\u201cJust tell him I\u2019m going to send him some money.\u201d He\u2019s desperate for money; I know that. \u201cGet an address for me, and call me.\u201d I went back home.<\/p>\n<p>Monday morning at 10 o\u2019clock I get a call from this guy down in Dallas, Texas; he said [whispering], \u201cHe\u2019s in my office.\u201d I said, \u201cHow do you know?\u201d He said, \u201cHe\u2019s got the same [clothing] in my office as he has on in the picture. I know it\u2019s him!\u201d I said, \u201cOkay; call me back.\u201d He called me back. That afternoon, I flew back to Dallas, took a friend with me\u2014we got a rental car; drove over to this house\u2014walked up, knocked on the door. This single mom screamed when she opened the door and saw me there.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Wow!<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: To make a long story short, we tried to talk him into coming back; he wouldn\u2019t. I was crying so hard I couldn\u2019t drive. My buddy drove us back to the airport; we turned the car in. As we pulled in, I said, \u201cYou know, Paul, when we get home, I\u2019m going back to graduate school\u2014and I\u2019m going to figure this out\u2014because I\u2019ve only worked for three pastors, and two of them have run off with other women in their church.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: How old were you at the time, Dave, when you said that?<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: That was in \u201977, so I would have been 32.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: How many years had you and Ronnie already been married?<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Eleven.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Okay, so that was it.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: It was it. I was going to find this guy and\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: You\u2019re a good friend.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: We were great friends!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: So that\u2019s why you were so devastated.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: I went back to graduate school and started working on this, and took<br \/>\ncourses to get into graduate school in the field of counseling and psychology. Basically,<br \/>\nlong story short, here I am.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You\u2019ve spent over 40 years\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: \u201440 years.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014as a therapist. You have run a counselling center at EvFree in Fullerton, California. You were in Detroit, where I was\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014for a little bit.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014just down the road for a while. All these decades you have been helping couples navigate this topic.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Is it different now than it was?<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Oh, yes; it is quite a bit different.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: In what way?<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: In 1995, the new way started by reaching people on the internet. At that point, I would tell you that the old girlfriend and the old boyfriend became the most dangerous person in your life. Before that, it was pretty much a matter of\u2014and we used to say it all the time\u2014\u201cFirst affairs are always about comfort and distraction\u201d; there\u2019s reasons why people get involved with adultery in most cases. You have to find out what some of those reasons are\u2014it didn\u2019t make him do it\u2014but it certainly contributed to the wellness failure.<\/p>\n<p>Back in Luke, when Jesus was tempted, after all those temptations, it says in Luke 4, the devil left Him for a more opportune time; meaning, we\u2019re all strong most of the time; but sometimes, we are not. We\u2019ve got to figure out: \u201cWhat changed in you?\u201d and \u201cWhat caused this vulnerability in you?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Let\u2019s talk about\u2014and you write it in your books, Anatomy of an Affair and Torn Asunder\u2014I remember seeing these books in the \u201890s.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Me, too, Dave. I remember, \u201cThank goodness somebody\u2019s written something.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: As a pastor, it was like something we needed in the church. You just said, \u201cMany affairs are the result of comfort or distraction\u201d; explain what that means.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder:<br \/>\n\u2022 It\u2019s very soothing; sex is soothing. God designed five or six different chemicals that all they do is produce soothing, great experiences inside of you. They\u2019re built that way. People who are stressed out, burned out, empty\u2014we use the \u201cHALT B\u201d acronym, etcetera\u2014those people are vulnerable to someone being nice, kind, generous, loving, sensitive, etcetera.<\/p>\n<p>\u2022 The other thing is distraction. There\u2019s nothing to distract you as much as being interested in somebody else. Infatuation is a crazy thing to go through\u2014we all know\u2014it happened to us in adolescence. That\u2019s why we married that person!\u2014we\u2019re crazy about them.<\/p>\n<p>We look for those things: in taking a history of a couple with adultery\u2014that\u2019s one of the first things you want to find out is\u2014\u201cWhat drove this vulnerability?\u201d Think in terms of grains of sand that wore down the boundaries that normally would have protected them. Every one of those contributive factors would be insufficient by itself; but clustered together, they take you down. The more of those you can find, the more likely you can figure out why this happened at this time with this person.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Wow! Interesting. So you and Ronnie have been married fifty-four years?<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: How many kids?<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Four.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: As you watched this happen around you, with so many friends having affairs, I\u2019m assuming that you started implementing safeguards in your own marriage.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Oh, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: What did that look like?<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Well, I've always said graduate school helped my marriage more than<br \/>\nanything else I've ever done, I think. One of the things that Ronnie was always good<br \/>\nabout\u2014and I was, too, but I could get distracted sometimes\u2014we're having these<br \/>\nreally great moments together; we get away. With four kids, you got to get away. I<br \/>\nbegan to realize and developed a mantra that really kind of began to manage our<br \/>\nbehavior; and that is: \u201cSpend money on your marriage.\u201d You'll spend it on a<br \/>\nrefrigerator\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Did you hear that Hun?!<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: \u2014and shoes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u201cSpend money on your marriage; whoo!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, I do spend money on our marriage; don\u2019t we?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: We do.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: We do this.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes; we didn\u2019t used to, but we do now.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And it's interesting: when we do a marriage weekend\u2014whether it's Weekend to<br \/>\nRemember with FamilyLife, or we do Vertical Marriage weekends\u2014couples will come<br \/>\nup, and say, \u201cThis is the first time we've been away in 25 years.\u201d And we're like, \u201cThat's<br \/>\nnot a good thing. I'm glad you got away; you need to do this every year.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: And I would say, at certain seasons of life, you might even need to do it<br \/>\nmore frequently. And some seasons of life, maybe not so much.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014like\u2026<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Let's just say you're able to do things without the kids just because of the<br \/>\nnature of the beast: maybe, you've got teenagers; or they're off to college; or you're kind<br \/>\nof an empty nester, so you might not need so many of those. But when you've got little<br \/>\nones, and you both are chugging along at 24\/7, you have got to say, \u201cNo,\u201d to this and go<br \/>\naway. You got to find yourselves again; you get lost in trying to raise your children.<br \/>\nYou're teaching them all the wrong things\u2014they think they're the most important thing in<br \/>\nthis marriage\u2014and they're not!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: They\u2019re close, but they\u2019re not the most important.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Especially as a mom, it\u2019s easy to make them the priority.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Oh, it is.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: One, they\u2019re so demanding; and then, you feel guilty if you\u2019re gone. If you\u2019re a working mom, and you\u2019re going to leave again, you feel even more guilty. But I think you\u2019re right to spend money. I love that: \u201cGet out,\u201d \u201cGo on a date,\u201d \u201cGet away!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Exactly.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Here's a great example. You don't know this Dave, but sitting behind you is<br \/>\nJustin Adams at our audio board; in fact, he built the whole thing in there. But Bruce<br \/>\nGoff is normally sitting there. Guess where he is?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: He is as our audio engineer.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: He is away with his wife\u2014little kids\u2014they're gone; they\u2019re [kids] home.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Three young daughters.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And they're away for five days. That is a great thing for them to be doing, right?<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: It is a great thing for them to be doing.<br \/>\nDave: Every marriage needs to do that. I know a lot of us say: \u201cWe can\u2019t do it; it\u2019s going to cost too much,\u201d \u201cI can\u2019t get out; I\u2019m not going to leave my kids.\u201d You have to.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: When your memories end\u2014your memories together end\u2014when your first baby is born, you are done.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Wow!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You are done?<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: You are done. You will go through the next few years, raising your kids and probably becoming great parents; but come the time the last child leaves, you will sit down at the breakfast table, and look across, and say, \u201cWho are you?!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014or even: \u201cI do not even know you,\u201d or \u201c\u2026like you.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: On our 25th wedding anniversary, Dave\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Oh, no; are we even going to talk about this?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014Dave prayed for a free trip to Mexico, and God answered that prayer. We had a free trip to Mexico. Someone got married\u2014wanted us to go\u2014asked me to go too.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014wanted us to do their wedding. They didn\u2019t know I had been praying for months. Because I\u2019m a cheapy, I was like:\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: You and me both!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014\u201cGod, You\u2019ve got to make this free\u201d; and we ended up in Mexico.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: But I remember we sat on that beach, looking out over the ocean, holding hands. I remember saying to Dave, \u201cI would marry you again\u2014knowing everything about you; going through everything we have gone through\u2014I would still choose you.\u201d We also said, \u201cWe need to do this every year.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And we\u2019ve done it every year since.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I think we all know that marriage is not easy. We have resources, here, at<br \/>\nFamilyLife that I think will really help you. I hope, and I really pray, that you'll just take<br \/>\nadvantage of the resources that we have for you. You can go to<br \/>\nFamilyLife.com\/MarriageHelp. Again, that's FamilyLife.com\/MarriageHelp.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I know there are couples listening\u2014they are like, \u201cI want to protect my marriage. You have already given me some things I need to do,\u201d\u2014you mentioned earlier and used an acrostic, HALT; I know what you mean: Hungry, Angry, Lonely, Tired.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: \u2014and bored.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I never heard the \u201cB.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Oh, \u201cB.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Talk about that a little bit; because couples need to understand that\u2019s when they are going to be weak, right?<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: That is when you are vulnerable. That\u2019s when Jesus was vulnerable in temptation.<br \/>\n\u2022 \u201cHungry\u201d: The sense of emptiness, the urge to do something. \u201cI\u2019ve got to find something\u201d; a craving, if you will. The feeling: \u201cI\u2019ve got to fill something up.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>\u2022 \u201cAngry\u201d: When you are irritated, frustrated\u2014you have nobody to share it with; you keep it all inside\u2014you lay awake at night, etcetera.<\/p>\n<p>\u2022 \u201cLonely\u201d: You are all alone. Alcoholics call the bottle \u201ca woman,\u201d\u2014I heard that in AA for years\u2014it is a sense of comfort for you when you are exhausted, tired, worn out, at your wits\u2019 end, hanging by a thread. If somebody can rescue you, great; you tell yourself, \u201cI can\u2019t do this; I need somebody or something.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>\u2022 Or when you are \u201cBored\u201d\/plain old bored. We started adding bored to that list when the internet came in, because that is one of the big drivers in pornography. Today, it\u2019s a click away. That\u2019s the thing that is so disgusting, disappointing, and disturbing.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, one of the things you said in both your books about affairs is: a lot of affairs happen because the marriage loses fun, loses joy. What does that mean? I love what you said because I've always said, Dave: \u201cI'm going to write a book someday called You Need to Have an Affair\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: \u2014\"with Your Wife.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014with Your Spouse.\u201d I remember I pitched that once to a publisher. [The publisher said,] \u201cThat's a terrible book.\u201d \u201cNo, no, no\u2014with Your Spouse.\u201d Because the<br \/>\nthings that an affair brings\u2014I don't know this, but I've heard\u2014are the things you lack in your marriage. I read that in your book; I'm like, \u201cOkay, you wrote that years ago; explain that.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Okay, so let me do it from the back door. One of the things that we forget to do, and need to do, is to build experiences in our relationship that generate infatuation, generate feelings for each other. Love is a feeling\u2014we try to make it go away: \u201cOh, it passes; it\u2019s not necessary,\u201d\u2014it is necessary. It\u2019s the icing; it\u2019s the energy; it\u2019s the whatever you want to call it on the marriage.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019ll give you a little exercise. The key to it in the recovery from the affair is the timing of when you begin to do this. When couples are on the downhill side of recovery from an affair\u2014and certainly, for couples who have not been involved in an affair\u2014here\u2019s a great fun exercise; we call them \u201cEight Greats.\u201d You each privately make a list of your eight greatest experiences, apart from your children and without friends.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Oh, this is good.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: You cannot include your marriage, but you can include your honeymoon. Now, if you are on a family vacation, and your kids are with you\u2014but you had a dinner alone, like at Disney, where we are, that is fine; no kids\u2014no kids can be available.<\/p>\n<p>After you each have made your list\u2014do it in pencil, because you will change it\u2014after you each are finished, you get together; and you merge the lists. The ones that match\u2014three or four are pretty common\u2014then, she gets five; you get six; she gets seven; you get eight. Now, Orange County, three years ago, the average cost for a divorce was $36,000; divide 8 into $36,000. You could spend $4,500 on each one of those eight items, and you will be miles ahead of what you end up with after going through them.<\/p>\n<p>One of the recovery points is: \u201cWhen you leave counselling, I want you to do one of those every so many months.\u201d Most of them are not expensive items. Many times, they are very simple things. You can include even experiences in your dating relationships, as you look back. Just come up with your list of \u201cEight Greats.\u201d The reason we do this is the very same reason why girlfriends and boyfriends are so dangerous; because the infatuation is stored in your brain, from the first time you did that experience. We\u2019re trying to stimulate that, and bring that to your conscious thought. So when you go back, and do something that was really a highlight in your relationship\u2014and you sit on that beach or whatever it is\u2014you think back to the first time: it's refreshing; it's invigorating.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: You experience those feelings again.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: You do!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Give us an example of what one of yours and Ronnie\u2019s would be.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: One time, when we were dating, we did a walk on a railroad track that was in disarray; they weren\u2019t using it. We walked into a park. I was a Boy Scout; I was the quartermaster, so I got used to cooking for the group, and troop, and everything else. I put two steaks, baked potatoes wrapped in foil; took a lighter along. We found a place\u2014we built a fireplace\u2014a little wood place. I had one of these portable fold-out grates. Long story short, I cooked us two baked potatoes and two steaks on that grill, out in the middle of nowhere. It sealed it, baby; she married me. [Laughter] It worked!<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I would, too. That\u2019s this cool romantic, rustic\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: What comes to your mind if you think of \u201cEight Greats\u201d for us right now?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Before we were married?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Anytime.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Anytime in marriage.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: This is\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014last four years.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: First year of our marriage, we went up into the mountains in Colorado. We were being trained for Cru.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: This is seriously a memory?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes, and we decided to go up into the mountains with a tent; we borrowed a tent.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Oh! I\u2019ve got some of those.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You\u2019re going to love this. You know what I decided to do? \u201cLet\u2019s fast while we\u2019re up in 10,000-feet altitudes.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: The best part of camping is eating! We\u2019re not even eating; I can remember we\u2019re starving. It\u2019s beautiful; it was cold.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Then we decided, \u201cWe\u2019re breaking the fast.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: We were so bored.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: We go fishing, because it was the only way we were getting food.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Here\u2019s my memory\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I caught nothing; that\u2019s what I remember. I caught nothing; and we got in the car, and we drove home.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: But here\u2019s my memory: I remember sitting on a rock in the absolute gorgeous mountains with this big lake. You had your guitar, and I remember you just worshiping. I was like, \u201cLook at our life; this is amazing.\u201d That was just this great\u2014what is one of yours?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: That was not even close to the top eight. [Laughter] I\u2019m like, \u201cThat is what you remember?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I remember driving to Manhattan from Detroit, right before a football season\u2014because with the Lions, I had a lot of work coming up\u2014and just going to Broadway plays, and eating in restaurants, and driving home.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Oh, it was so fun.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: A lot of it was the drive.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: But we had to spend some money.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Let me ask you this, Dave\u2014because that\u2019s one side of it\u2014bringing joy and fun back. The other side\u2014because I\u2019m thinking there\u2019s couple listening, who is like, \u201cHow do we protect ourselves, especially in this day and age?\u201d\u2014you\u2019ve got the internet; you\u2019ve got old boyfriends, girlfriends; Facebook; you name it\u2014not saying those things are bad.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014social media.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: But we\u2019ve got a different world to protect ourselves from. Let me ask you this real quick: \u201cBilly Graham Rule; do you agree with it or not?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I mean men not really spending time alone with women who aren\u2019t their wife,\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: That doesn\u2019t fly today, you know.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014in ministry.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: I know. Remember: every Monday, men and women, who are colleagues at work, get on planes; drive to customers in another city; take them out to an expensive restaurants; they have all the alcohol you want. You take them to sporting events, and concerts, and everything else; then, you go back to the same hotel. That is corporate dating.<\/p>\n<p>One of the things to remember about that\u2014and I\u2019m going to come back to your question in a second\u2014this behavior is called ego-dystonic; meaning, it\u2019s contrary to a person\u2019s individual values and stated beliefs. Now, in some cultures it is not; but in a Christian man or woman, most of them would say, \u201cAdultery is wrong\u201d; it is on God\u2019s top ten list. When they act out like that, it really fractures them very, very deeply on the inside.<\/p>\n<p>\u201cHow can you protect yourself?\u201d is the question: you have to be honest with yourself. A lot of this starts with texting\u2014going back; getting in touch: \u201cI wonder what ever happened to Susie?\u201d\u2014my wife, if she\u2019s listening, she\u2019ll tell you: \u201cSusie is an old high school girlfriend,\u201d so I always use \u201cSusie.\u201d [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Is that a real name or made up?<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: No, it\u2019s her real name.<\/p>\n<p>You get on the internet, and you start looking for them. Pretty soon, it\u2019s just kind of casual; and you are texting: \u201cYou\u2019ve got three kids; I\u2019ve got three kids,\u201d \u201cOh, yes\u2026 [Inaudible]\u2026,\u201d and on and on.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: It starts innocently.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: It starts innocently. But that infatuation you had for that person is locked into your brain. You never forget the person you kissed passionately\u2014unless you were really promiscuous\u2014made out with you. It\u2019s there; t\u2019s all there.<\/p>\n<p>Are you a car guy?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Oh, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Okay, [as] a senior in high school, I drove a 426 Plymouth. I sold that; [Laughter] I hate myself. But anyway, it was a great car. Here, Barrett-Jackson, maybe six or seven years ago\u2014something like that\u2014after the 2008 crash, I\u2019m watching the auction. Here comes this Plymouth Belvedere across the auction block, just almost identical to what I drove. I thought, \u201cThat car sold for almost $200,000. The guy who bought it\u2014when he got in that car, and started that up, and drove it off\u2014that car was rocking with that big cam in it. [Laughter] He was 16, dragging Main Street\u201d; okay? That\u2019s what he was doing; he just paid a lot for it.<\/p>\n<p>Now, that\u2019s what happens with old girlfriends and boyfriends. If you stay in touch with them for 30 days, you will feel confused about the person that you married; because your spouse had stopped generating those kinds of feelings in you.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: If you stay with them another 30 days\u2014I\u2019ve heard you say this\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: \u2014you will find ways to meet and have sex. It will sweep you right off your feet.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: That\u2019s why I didn\u2019t let Ann\u2019s old boyfriend, who ended up playing for the Detroit Lions, come to the Detroit Lion\u2019s Bible study. He came to our front door.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: He totally came to the Bible study.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I\u2019m like, \u201cYou\u2019re not coming into this house.\u201d I let him in; but I did have a thought, as he got to the front door, like, \u201cI don\u2019t want this guy in my Bible study.\u201d Fortunately, he was only with the team two weeks; and they cut him, but that was fine.<\/p>\n<p>I had that feeling, like, \u201cOf course, I love him; I want to lead him to Christ.\u201d But there was a protective part of me, like, \u201cYou [Ann] don\u2019t need to be around this guy, and I don\u2019t need to be around my old girlfriends.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: All of us have downturns in our marriage; and that might be one in those vulnerable times, just like the devil trying to come back and tempt Jesus.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I cut you off; what were you going to say?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes. This will be a great podcast to share with your spouse, just to say: \u201cHey, I listened to this today. Let\u2019s talk about this when we get home,\u201d or \u201cSometime, let\u2019s go on a date; and talk about how we are doing. Do we have any protection going on in our marriage? And have we had fun, or have we spent money?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, there\u2019s two sides.<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u201cLet\u2019s make a list, and say, \u2018What are we going to do to add some of the feelings we had before?\u2019 and \u2018What are we going to do to protect?\u2019\u201d Is that right?<\/p>\n<p>Dave Carder: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: This is FamilyLife Today. We're Ann and Dave Wilson. We've been talking with<br \/>\nDave Carder.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yeah, his book, Anatomy of an Affair\u2014man, you talk about relevant stuff\u2014that<br \/>\nwas a great conversation.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I think we all need to be reminded of these simple truths.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And if you want to get a copy of Dave's book, you can go right now, online, to FamilyLifeToday.com and order your book there. Or if you'd like to give us a call, just call us at 800-358-6329. That's 800-F as in Family, L as in Life, and then the word, TODAY.<\/p>\n<p>FamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry.<br \/>\nHelping you pursue the relationships that matter most.<\/p>\n<p>If you\u2019ve benefited from the FamilyLife Today transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs of producing them and making them available online?<\/p>\n<p>Copyright \u00a9 2025 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.<\/p>\n<p>www.FamilyLife.com<\/p>\n","theme_header_position":"Sticky","post_header_is_sticky":"default","is_header_overlay":"0"},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/280634","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/47000"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=280634"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/280866"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=280634"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=280634"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=280634"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=280634"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=280634"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=280634"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}