{"id":280630,"date":"2025-04-04T03:15:00","date_gmt":"2025-04-04T07:15:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/your-story-after-porn-rosie-makinney\/"},"modified":"2025-06-17T11:03:47","modified_gmt":"2025-06-17T15:03:47","slug":"your-story-after-porn-rosie-makinney","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/your-story-after-porn-rosie-makinney\/","title":{"rendered":"Your Story after Porn: Rosie Makinney"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>Author and podcaster Rosie Makinney knows the aftermath of a porn-wrecked marriage. She offers hope and steps forward for a radically different tomorrow.<\/p>\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Author and podcaster Rosie Makinney knows the aftermath of a porn-wrecked marriage. She offers hope and steps forward for a radically different tomorrow. Show Notes and Resources To learn more about Fight For Love Ministries visit: https:\/\/fightforlovemin&#8230;<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":47000,"featured_media":280866,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"audio","audio_file":"https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/ab6748aa-5054-408e-9712-b15401201182\/audio.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:27:54","filesize":"25.58M","filesize_raw":"","date_recorded":"2025-04-04 03:15:00","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[2844],"tags":[2409],"podcast_series":[8599],"cwp_profile":[9832],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-280630","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-pornography","tag-fight-for-love","podcast_series-fight-for-love-after-porn-rosie-makinney","cwp_profile-rosie-makinney","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/04\/image-scaled.jpg?w=1024","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/280630\/your-story-after-porn-rosie-makinney","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/280630\/your-story-after-porn-rosie-makinney","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"z8TQHwtA9Z\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/your-story-after-porn-rosie-makinney\/\">Your Story after Porn: Rosie Makinney<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/your-story-after-porn-rosie-makinney\/embed\/#?secret=z8TQHwtA9Z\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Your Story after Porn: Rosie Makinney&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"z8TQHwtA9Z\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! 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Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Check out all the FamilyLife's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n"],"theme_header_position":["Sticky"],"post_header_is_sticky":["default"],"is_header_overlay":["0"],"episode_type":["audio"],"date_recorded":["2025-04-04 03:15:00"],"enclosure":["https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/ab6748aa-5054-408e-9712-b15401201182\/audio.mp3"],"transcript_content":["<p><strong>Your Story After Porn<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>Guest:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 Rosie Makinney\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n<p>From the series:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 Fight for Love After Porn (Day 2 of 2)<\/p>\n<p>Air date:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 April 4, 2025<\/p>\n<p><strong>\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 Hey, we just wanted to give you a heads up before you listen to this next program because today's conversation on FamilyLife covers some pretty sensitive\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 Oh yeah.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 \u2014but really important subjects that may not be suitable for younger ears. So just use some discretion when listening to this next broadcast.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 And let me add this, and if you do listen with your kids, talk about it after with them.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 Right. This is an important conversation to have with maybe older kids, just depending on what you're thinking. But we just wanted to give you a heads up.<\/p>\n<p>Rosie:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 I can't hammer this enough. It is possible to be free even if you think, \u201cI've tried everything. I'm different. I'm special, I'm unique.\u201d You don't understand. I really am because my husband spent, I don't know, $20,000 over 15 years trying everything, like every weird and wacky therapy you can think of to get rid of this, apart from doing the one thing that works, and that's walking rigorously in the light.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 Welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Ann Wilson.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 And I'm Dave Wilson, and you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com. This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p>So we go away to write our book <em>Vertical Marriage,<\/em> years ago, and had it laid out. Here's the chapters I'm going to write. Here's the chapters Ann's going to write. And the first day, I'm on my computer writing one of my chapters, and I look out and I see Ann on her computer. Wow! I'm like, \u201cI don't know what she's writing, but man, she's really into it.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>So I pull up\u2014she didn't know I could do this\u2014I pull up her manuscript on Microsoft Word, so I can see like, \u201cWow, she's really going after it. We've never written a book before. How is she doing this?\u201d And I see this title of a chapter I've never heard of. I'm like, \u201cIt's not in our plan. What is \u2018Dave's neck problem?\u2019\u201d So go ahead and tell them what\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 Well, if any of our listeners have gotten to know me over the years, they probably know that if Dave has a\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 She doesn't like to do what I tell her to do; they should know.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 I thought, \u201cOkay, yeah, that's a good plan. I like it,\u201d but then I sit down, I think, \u201cBut is that the plan that I want to take?\u201d And so I remember praying, and saying, \u201cGod, where\u201d\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 Well, now she's going to say this is God's idea. \u201cI remember praying.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 \u201cWhere should I go?\u201d And this idea came to my mind. I thought, \u201cOoh, this is what I want to write about.\u201d And so I titled it \u201cDave's Neck Problem\u201d\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 And a short version\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 \u2014based on when we first got married. I remember being on the beach with him, and every time a girl would walk down the beach in a bikini\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 That's an exaggeration; not every time.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 Dave, no, it was every time, could not stop his neck from turning and watching this girl go all the way down the beach. I remember saying, \u201cI'm right here, and you're looking at her.\u201d He goes, \u201cWhat are you talking about? I never do that.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 I denied the whole thing because I really didn't think I had a problem. Then, when she said that\u2014and again, the chapter is all about this discussion\u2014I then said, \u201cWell, every guy does that.\u201d Then I sat down with God, and again, this was very early in our marriage, 42 years ago, and I'm like, \u201cIs this a problem?\u201d Yep, and it was. So it was the first time in my life I said, \u201cI\u2019ve got to attack this,\u201d and I did.<\/p>\n<p>And so anyway, long story short, the next day I go to write my next chapter and I'm sitting there. I'm like, \u201cWait a minute. If she wrote \u2018Dave's Neck Problem\u2014Ann's Perspective,\u2019 I'm going to write \u2018Dave's Neck Problem\u2014Dave's Perspective.\u2019\u201d So I decided I'm going to talk about this conversation, and where it led. Here's why I'm bringing it up. I get halfway through that writing that chapter, and I'm talking about how I got victory. I memorized Scripture. I started to change this area of my life, and I was going to end the chapter, like \u201cThat's a good chapter.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>But it wasn't honest. Because about ten years later in our marriage I started to struggle with pornography. And this was before digital pornography. This was magazines and I had to deal with that.<\/p>\n<p>I remember sitting there with my computer, \u201cDo I get that honest? It says Christian marriage book. I have to.\u201d So I wrote it, and I talked about the struggle, telling Ann, the fights we had in my battle to victory in that area that wasn't instantaneous. It took years and it was a battle.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 And we later said, \u201cThey'll never keep these chapters in the book.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 We even said that to Zondervan when we sent it in. \u201cWe're fine if you don't keep these.\u201d And they came back and said, \u201cThese are two of the best chapters in the book. No Christian authors have been that honest. These are really going to help people.\u201d Why are we bringing this up today, Ann?<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 Because we are talking with Rosie Makinney again today and we're going to talk with her about her book <em>Fight for Love<\/em>. Rosie, welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p>Rosie:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 Thank you. You guys are awesome. I love that you did that, Dave, and I love that you're talking about it again because it's hard. It's hard to come forward, but as soon\u2014don't you find that as soon as you get stuff out, it completely loses all its power?<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 A thousand percent. And you know this better than anybody. Your book <em>Fight for Lov<\/em>e is a similar story as you found out about your husband's addiction to pornography.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 We started yesterday about that, and if you haven't listened, go back and listen.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 Oh, you have to listen to yesterday because today's really part two. And I've always said as a pastor, even in sermons, I've always said, \u201cIf you keep whatever you're struggling with in the dark, the dark wins.\u201d The second, I mean, the second you bring it into the light, I'm not saying you're healed, but the power gets less. There's something about bringing it into the light.<\/p>\n<p>And even as we talked yesterday, I was hoping that men were listening because a lot of it was for the wives and today will be as well. But if you're a guy struggling like I have struggled, you have to tell someone. That's the first step, someone. It's probably a secret. Nobody knows, and I know what you're thinking: \u201cI won't ever do it again.\u201d I said one time, a month ago or a week ago, \u201cYou're in a war, dude, and somebody needs to be told, a buddy.\u201d And Rosie, I'll ask you, would you tell your wife if you're that guy?<\/p>\n<p>Rosie:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 Absolutely. Because she already knows that something's up. Even if she doesn't know what it's, she knows that something's up.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 Yes! I remember saying to Dave, \u201cSomething's wrong. I feel like there's something between us. What's going on?\u201d And he'd say, \u201cNothing, I'm fine.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 I was in denial.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 But I could feel it. Something was up.<\/p>\n<p>Rosie:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 And those couples where the guy has confessed instead of being discovered, it's an easier start. It's still really hard, but it really does go a long way towards helping the wife feel that she can trust you at least on the aspect of telling the truth. And that's what guys don't really get. They think they're protecting their wives by hiding the truth, but it's not just the acting out. The acting out you might not have very much control over. It's a compulsion. That's what an addiction is. It's doing the stuff even though you don't want to do it.<\/p>\n<p>But the betrayal, you can decide whether or not you tell her about it afterwards. You can decide whether or not you can tell, maybe not her if you're early recovery, but your recovery people before \u201cI'm really triggered. I'm really struggling. I'm circling the drain. I just need to get this out in the light.\u201d Because as you said, it's like it's all in the Scripture. \u201cWalk in the light, as He is in the light, and then you have fellowship, and the blood of his Son, Jesus Christ, will cleanse you from all sin.\u201d We don't have fellowship when we don't walk in the light.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 And I also love Jesus saying, \u201cI have come to set the captive free.\u201d And I think we get into this trap in our marriage, if a husband confesses or a wife shares her struggle, that we think we're just in this trap and we can't get out of it because it keeps coming up and it's this carousel. We're never going to win. But Jesus says He can set us free, but I love that you're giving us steps of how we can become set free.<\/p>\n<p>Rosie:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 And I just want to give that hope. So the guy is, if you're listening to this and you're thinking, \u201cOkay, I'm going to tell her, and I really need to tell somebody,\u201d don\u2019t be surprised when you fall back into it unless you are in a really strong program and working your program. If you are not taking active proactive steps towards recovery, you will slip it back into it because that's the nature of addiction. It is your coping mechanism. So you can't just take the coping mechanism away and go, \u201cWell, I'm not going to have anything I need to cope with in life.\u201d You need to replace it with a healthy coping mechanism, which is intimate relationships with other people, other guys.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 Let's talk about that a little bit because as a pastor for 30 years and being in a lot of men's groups, the general theme in the church in this area or really in any habitual sin area, was \u201cGet the Word of God in your life, get in a men's group\u2014and again, this could be a woman's group\u2014confess your sin.\u201d People say, \u201cWe feel bad for you. You're forgiven. Go home.\u201d And next week you come back and it's like this cycle. It doesn't heal. It's just like a place where we sort of get our wrists slapped and then we just move on. It's like, that just didn't work.<\/p>\n<p>Rosie:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 What really does work?<\/p>\n<p>Rosie:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 I'm really glad that you brought that up because we have these sympathy circles, not recovery circles.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 Oh, that's a good way to say it.<\/p>\n<p>Rosie:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 And the wife is going, \u201cOkay, my husband's going to a recovery group, so I am doing my part. I'm surrendering this. I'm working on my healing the trauma. I'm working on\u2014\"<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 \u2014my response.<\/p>\n<p>Rosie:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 Yeah, \u201cI'm working on my stuff, and he's being taken care of.\u201d However, if he's not in a good recovery group, and that's why I put in the book what to look for in a group, because otherwise you can go to a recovery group for years and the only thing that changes is the wife's heart. And she goes, \u201cYou know what? We've done this for five years. I am done. Nothing is changing.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>And we're like, \u201cYou haven't tried the one thing that works.\u201d I can't hammer this enough. It is possible to be free even if you think \u201cI've tried everything. I'm different. I'm special. I'm unique.\u201d You don't understand. I really am because my husband spent, I don't know, $20,000 over 15 years trying everything, like every weird and wacky therapy you can think of to get rid of this, apart from doing the one thing that works, and that's walking rigorously in the light. And having someone who was brave enough\u2014I'm thinking of his sponsor at the time, who apparently was giving up alcohol and was very bad tempered and very gruff and were just giving the truth really hard. \u201cYou are out of your mind. Go make her a cup of tea. Shut up. Go back.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Because he needed that. He needed to outsource his thinking because his prefrontal cortex was so addled from the damage that the pornography had done. He needed to outsource his thinking to someone who went, \u201cDid you take appropriate steps? Did you confess to someone that you were struggling? Are you looking at what triggers you? Are you looking at what else in your life is triggering you? Are you being intimate with other people to help you cope with the stresses that are now compelling you to act out, to relieve some of that tension?\u201d And it's really hard. Who wants to be honest about themselves?<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 This is different than just saying, \u201cOh, hey, this is what I did this week. We're going to pray for you.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Rosie:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 Oh, yeah.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 Not that that's not important; that is important. But yesterday you said we as women, as wives, need to take a stand. And so you said to your husband\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Rosie:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 Well, I said to my husband, \u201cYou get into help or that's it.\u201d I mean, what I'd say now, what I advise people to say is that you come alongside, and you can only come alongside when you've received enough help and clarity about what's going on to take some of that emotional pressure off of you. And then you can come alongside and look at it objectively, dispassionately and say, \u201cThere's a hole in the boat and we need to fix it, because you are the one who's just put an ax through the bottom of the boat, but I'm sitting in the boat. You are too busy swinging your ax around, but I'm going to ring up for the lifeboat because we are drowning. We are sinking, and our children are in the boat as well.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>And my husband, as I said yesterday, is a therapist. I asked him one day and I said, \u201cHow do guys end up in the office? Do they just one day think, \u2018I'm just fed up with this. I'm going to spend so much money going to see a therapist about this.\u2019 Does that happen?\u201d And he's going, \u201cNo, they arrive with the footprint of their wife on their back\u201d because the wife goes, she goes, \u201cEnough! I can't do this anymore. You are destroying my love for you. You are destroying my faith in myself. You're destroying everything. You're affecting how I'm seeing myself. You are just wrecking everything, and I can't do this anymore. I don't know what to do. This is my only option is to just say, \u2018Stop! Enough!\u2019\u201d<\/p>\n<p>It's only when you feel the grace of God that you can take a good, hard look at yourself, and that's for all of us, isn't it? I mean, in this process, I had to look at myself and my own junk that got me into this mess in the first place. Not that I was in any way responsible for his stuff, but I came to the marriage with a lot of brokenness too. And I had to have a good hard look at myself, and that will take you to your knees. It's only when you realize that we are all broken, we're all sinners, but our hope, our confidence is through Christ. And that enables you to walk in the light.<\/p>\n<p>So walking in the light for a guy means you have to get in touch with all the horrible stuff that you've been suppressing, whether that's anger or resentment or fear, and really be honest because none of us are very nice people underneath, and we need Jesus on an hourly basis.<\/p>\n<p>\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 So if you're trying to suppress that and be a really good person and appear like a really good person, all that energy is going to come out sideways. And if you have conditioned your brain to have pornography as your outlet from a very early age, you are going to go in that direction, even if you know that it is destroying your wife and your works on the line. People do crazy things like the risks that they take or the behavior that they get into. It's insane. But it's all because this is a brain disease. It's curable, but it is a brain disease, and we have to treat it that seriously. And just going back to what you were talking about, Dave, about the groups that guys get into. Sometimes guys don't need to get into a full recovery program. With a bit of accountability, maybe a bit of filtering software, maybe being honest with a few close people, they can have victory and stay sober. Great.<\/p>\n<p>Some guys can\u2019t. I think that becomes problems when the guys who can manage their temptations with a bit of accountability and a bit of filtering software, try and present that as the model, if that makes any sense. Because there's some poor guy sitting there going, \u201cI've tried that. It doesn't work.\u201d I mean, my husband would say he would memorize Scripture in the morning and then act out in the afternoon. He's like, \u201cI have tried so hard. I have really, really, really tried and it didn't work for me.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>So if you're sitting there and thinking, \u201cOh, that's me,\u201d I just want to tell you there is hope. And if you're a wife thinking, \u201cI can't imagine ever trusting him again, or feeling any sort of love for him again,\u201d it is possible. It really is possible. And it isn't by accident that this is happening. God is using this as an invitation for you both to draw close to Him and to each other in a way that you might not have done without this external, horrible crucible of pain that forces you to deal with these issues.<\/p>\n<p>And I'd say to any family that has dealt with this, any couple that has dealt with this, not only are you getting a marriage that is so transparent and vulnerable and rich that you might not have got before, but also you are the greatest strength for your children. Your vulnerability, your courage to tackle this, and your openness is the best gift that you can give your kids.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 I think what you just said, \u201cThis is God's invitation.\u201d I want to hit pause and go, \u201cWait, wait, let's talk about that.\u201d I think when a wife confronts a husband about this issue, or really any sin issue, but we're talking about pornography today, so often the husband can feel attacked. \u201cI don't really have that big a problem.\u201d But I don't think we've ever thought of it as like \u201cGod's invitation is going to be using this scenario to say, \u2018I'm going to just lavish My grace on you, and here's what it's going to look like.\u2019\u201d It's not going to be easy. It's going to be a wife who speaks up and says, \u201cI can't do this anymore. We need to get help.\u201d And it's really a \u201cwe\u201d thing, isn't it?<\/p>\n<p>Rosie:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 That's what I was thinking too, Dave, is I thought for us as wives, this isn't just his problem. I remember the first time someone asked me, \u201cDo you wish he would've never told you that he struggled in this area?\u201d I remember pausing for a minute and thinking, \u201cI'm so glad that he told me about it, because I feel like I know him.\u201d There's an intimacy now, like I truly see, and he sees this in me, my weaknesses, my flaws, the ugly parts of me.<\/p>\n<p>And I see that in him, as well, and I feel like, \u201cOh, I want to battle with him in this.\u201d I'm not taking responsibility for it necessarily, but I'm saying, \u201cHe needs me.\u201d What would it look like me to battle the enemy who really is Satan? He's battling for our husbands, our marriages for us, for our families. What would it look like for us to say, \u201cNo more\u201d? Like \u201cI will,\u201d as you said in your book, \u201cI will fight for my man and my husband and our family.\u201d I feel like you've done that, Rosie.<\/p>\n<p>Rosie:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 In marriage, two become one, and we always go, \u201cOh yes, we become one heart.\u201d What about if we become one brain? And he's just scrambled his brain. He\u2019s rewired his neural pathways. He's got hypo frontality, which is a condition that you get in only two ways. One is a head-on collision, and one is through heavy porn use. It's a shrinkage of this gray matter, your prefrontal cortex, which is where you make your decisions, and you weigh consequences. He\u2019s shrunk that.<\/p>\n<p>He's now become sensitized to pornographic cues. He's got shame going on. His brain's fried; your brain is still working. You can do the research. You can get supported. You can get healthy. You have to be the prefrontal cortex of your collective brain right now and go, \u201cDo you know what? We need help.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>You are used as a tool of repentance; however, it's not you who's bringing him to a place of repentance. You are being used as a catalyst by God for him to put godly sorrow, basically the fear of God will be put into him when you stand firm and you pursue chaste conduct, which is keeping yourself pure. So if he's doing this, you're going, \u201cOkay, but that's not happening in our marriage, and it's not happening in our marriage bed, and if you are filling your mind with this, you're not filling my mind with this.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>It's like two become one. You have to stand firm. And it's not just you, drawing some moral line in the sand; it's you, obeying God. And I think once we empower women to understand that we submit to our husbands, yes, but we submit to the Word of God first. And if he's being disobedient to the Word, we don't do that. We don't capitulate. We stay godly. And that means keeping yourself pure. If you keep yourself pure, you put the fear of God in him because he sees that, and it becomes uncomfortable. It's like, \u201cOh, she's not playing this game anymore. She's not enabling.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>So without a word, you can just draw that firm line in the sand. It's a real, just a mind shift, as you say, take all those personal issues about \u201cIf I just went to the gym more,\u201d \u201cIf I bought more lingerie,\u201d \u201cIf I somehow presented it to him in a way, he'd understand how much it hurts me.\u201d It's doesn't matter. His brain's been hijacked. You need to do consequences. We wouldn't do that with our children. Well, actually we do do that with our children. We try and persuade them, \u201cDo you realize how much this is hurting Mommy?\u201d It's like, \u201cDon't care. I still want to go on the computer.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 I've had so many wives say to me, \u201cHe's choosing this over me because he doesn't love me. What kind of man would say he loves me, wants to be with me. He knows how much this hurts me and he chooses to continually hurt me with it.\u201d That's that brain part that you're saying.<\/p>\n<p>Rosie:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 Totally, totally. And some of them really do think that it's your fault, and that's really hard but you have to understand that their brains have been hijacked. Some of them know it's not your fault and they might just be sort of just gaslighting you, which is horrendous and shouldn't be condoned or overlooked or anything like that. But there are many reasons why he might be resistant to just going, \u201cYou're right. It's time to get help.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 Even as you write in your book, the brain science part of this was not understood for decades. It's somewhat in the last decade or so. I remember Ann and I were flying somewhere to do a marriage conference. We were walking through the airport, and I saw <em>Time<\/em> magazine in a bookstore in the airport. The cover was porn, and it had the big circle with the X like, \u201cDon't do porn.\u201d I'm like, \u201c<em>Time<\/em> magazine?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>So I bought it and basically it was science. And this is not a Christian viewpoint. This is non-Christian man saying, \u201cI've grown up with this. This is the worst thing I've done. It's affected every part of my life. Stay away.\u201d I'm like, \u201cIsn't this interesting?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Rosie:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 For hundreds of years we've been saying from Scripture, \u201cGod says, \u2018Avoid sexual immorality\u2019 because of this.\u201d Now science is confirming it, and the non-Christian world is saying, \u201cThis stuff is really bad. Do you understand what it does to your brain? Neural pathways?\u201d None of that was ever talked about.<\/p>\n<p>It's like God from the beginning said, \u201cI have a life for you that's amazing. Be very careful, especially in this area, because sexual temptation can mess with your brain in a way that other temptations don't. Don\u2019t do it.\u201d And now the unchurched, they're saying, \u201cDon't do it.\u201d\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Rosie:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 Absolutely<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 \u2014thinking we were moralists. Well, actually, God was a moralist, but He was saying, \u201cI know something you don't understand,\u201d and now we do.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 Consequences.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 And so it's one of the best things you can ever do to protect your marriage, and your family is to say, \u201cNo.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Rosie:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 I know. Isn't that wonderful when the Bible is just like, \u201cWe were saying this all along. You weren't listening. There are reasons there's a boundary around sex, and we put it within marriage, and we put it in covenant. There's a reason.\u201d And then science comes along and just says, \u201cAnd this is why.\u201d It's beautiful. And I really think that the church needs to help people with that message, but they also need to be explicit about how demonic this stuff is.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>Rosie:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 This is really nasty stuff. This isn't just watching consensual adults having sex. This is really dark stuff, and it's getting more violent, and it's getting younger.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 And as you said yesterday, it's capturing\u2014did you say one out of three women, girls now?<\/p>\n<p>Rosie:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 And so now it's not only in men and boys, but it's taking our girls, our women. I get mad about that. That's destroying families. I look at this beautiful creation. I think about our sons and our grandkids and our daughters-in-law. I see the beauty in each of them, and to think that Satan is going to come and hijack them so that they will never live in freedom and God's plan for them, that makes me mad. And so I love that you're writing about this.<\/p>\n<p>Rosie:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 Thank You. I so resonate with what you're saying. And it's the reason why our whole ministry, we want to create an army of women.<\/p>\n<p>Ann &amp; Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Rosie:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 We want a whole army of proactive women who are like \u201cEnough! Our children are drowning. Our husbands have been hijacked. If we don't stand up and say something about this, who is?\u201d We need to help reclaim our husbands, and it's not us doing it. It's just we throw them that lifesaver.<\/p>\n<p>If you imagine a guy in a swamp, and we have these conferences for guys, and they're like, \u201cWho's struggling?\u201d and they're all going, \u201cOh, I'm struggling. I'm struggling.\u201d They're going, \u201cWell, just come on out,\u201d and it's like they can't. They're in a swamp. They literally can't. They might want to in that moment in the conference, and then on the way home they're going to get triggered or distracted and they're going to go home and do pornography. They can't get themselves out the swamp and we need to understand that.<\/p>\n<p>And so as a wife, you might be the only person in his entire world who knows he's in the swamp. If you don't do the brave thing and reach out for help, or just not even reach out for help, take the first baby step: just listen to a podcast; get on the journey. If you don't do that, who is going to do that? And I'm telling you, your husband is so much more than who he is now. He might not even know who he is now. We need our guys to stand up now more than ever. We need our guys to be able to stand up.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 The beauty, as we wrap up, is you and Mark are a picture of God's redemption, God's restoration. You can have a porn-free marriage. It's actually possible. I know some listeners are like, \u201cNo, we are so dark.\u201d Listen to this story, get Rosie's book. You can get there. God can do that. That's what He does. He can raise a dead marriage back to life.<\/p>\n<p>Rosie:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 It's better. And the lie\u2014the devil will come in and he'll say to the guy, \u201cBut life is going to be boring without pornography. Life is going to be lackluster. Nothing is going to quite match it.\u201d And it's true for a little while. But then when you regain control, you are going to realize that actually you have an amazing life, and there are possibilities now open to you. It's so hard to come back from that, like \u201cMy fairytale wedding that I dreamt of has been utterly ruined. I can't get that back.\u201d And I'm saying you have something better. Yours is not Cinderella. It is Shrek, okay? He's an ogre. You are an ogre, but they have a much better time.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 That's so good. This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, and we're Ann and Dave Wilson, and we've been talking with Rosie Makinney. I'm so grateful for her. And that should be something we tell every newlywed couple.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 Yeah, your marriage is going to be like Shrek, not Cinderella. And you know what? There's a lot of truth there, especially if the thing we've been talking about today enters your marriage: porn, the struggle with porn. And so if that's where you're living, or maybe you know somebody that could really value from listening to these programs, share those with them.<\/p>\n<p>But also you may want to get her book. It's called <em>Fight for Love: How to Take Your Marriage Back from Porn<\/em>, and we've got it in our shop. You can go get it at FamilyLifeToday.com. It's in the show notes there. Just click the link and order the book. Or if you'd rather just give us a call at 1-800-358-6329. That's 800-\u201cF\u201d as in Family, \u201cL\u201d as in Life, and then the word \u201cTODAY.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 Hey, and if you need more help, you can go to FamilyLife.com\/MarriageHelp. We've put together some of our best material on marriage.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 \u2014and it's free.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 It's free, and you can go to that website. Again, that's FamilyLife.com\/MarriageHelp.<\/p>\n<p><em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. Helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.<\/p>\n<p><strong>\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>If you\u2019ve benefited from the <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs of producing them and making them available online?<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>Copyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2025 FamilyLife. 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and podcaster Rosie Makinney knows the aftermath of a porn-wrecked marriage. She offers hope and steps forward for a radically different tomorrow. Show Notes and Resources To learn more about Fight For Love Ministries visit: https:\/\/fightforlovemin...","meta_box":{"show_notes":"<ul>\n<li>\n<p><strong>Show Notes and Resources<\/strong><\/p>\n<ul>\n<li>Learn more about Rosie Makinney's \"<a href=\"https:\/\/fightforloveministries.org\/\">Fight For Love<\/a>\" ministry.\u00a0<\/li>\n<li>Purchase \"<a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product\/fight-for-love\/\">Fight For Love<\/a>\" online.<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-creator\/easter-with-familylife\/\">Find our Resurrection Eggs here<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<hr \/>\n<ul>\n<li>Find resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/past-radio-resources\/\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Find more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<\/li>\n<li>Help others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Check out all the FamilyLife's podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n","transcript_url":"","transcript_content":"<p><strong>Your Story After Porn<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>Guest:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 Rosie Makinney\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n<p>From the series:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 Fight for Love After Porn (Day 2 of 2)<\/p>\n<p>Air date:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 April 4, 2025<\/p>\n<p><strong>\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 Hey, we just wanted to give you a heads up before you listen to this next program because today's conversation on FamilyLife covers some pretty sensitive\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 Oh yeah.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 \u2014but really important subjects that may not be suitable for younger ears. So just use some discretion when listening to this next broadcast.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 And let me add this, and if you do listen with your kids, talk about it after with them.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 Right. This is an important conversation to have with maybe older kids, just depending on what you're thinking. But we just wanted to give you a heads up.<\/p>\n<p>Rosie:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 I can't hammer this enough. It is possible to be free even if you think, \u201cI've tried everything. I'm different. I'm special, I'm unique.\u201d You don't understand. I really am because my husband spent, I don't know, $20,000 over 15 years trying everything, like every weird and wacky therapy you can think of to get rid of this, apart from doing the one thing that works, and that's walking rigorously in the light.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 Welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Ann Wilson.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 And I'm Dave Wilson, and you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com. This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p>So we go away to write our book <em>Vertical Marriage,<\/em> years ago, and had it laid out. Here's the chapters I'm going to write. Here's the chapters Ann's going to write. And the first day, I'm on my computer writing one of my chapters, and I look out and I see Ann on her computer. Wow! I'm like, \u201cI don't know what she's writing, but man, she's really into it.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>So I pull up\u2014she didn't know I could do this\u2014I pull up her manuscript on Microsoft Word, so I can see like, \u201cWow, she's really going after it. We've never written a book before. How is she doing this?\u201d And I see this title of a chapter I've never heard of. I'm like, \u201cIt's not in our plan. What is \u2018Dave's neck problem?\u2019\u201d So go ahead and tell them what\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 Well, if any of our listeners have gotten to know me over the years, they probably know that if Dave has a\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 She doesn't like to do what I tell her to do; they should know.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 I thought, \u201cOkay, yeah, that's a good plan. I like it,\u201d but then I sit down, I think, \u201cBut is that the plan that I want to take?\u201d And so I remember praying, and saying, \u201cGod, where\u201d\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 Well, now she's going to say this is God's idea. \u201cI remember praying.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 \u201cWhere should I go?\u201d And this idea came to my mind. I thought, \u201cOoh, this is what I want to write about.\u201d And so I titled it \u201cDave's Neck Problem\u201d\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 And a short version\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 \u2014based on when we first got married. I remember being on the beach with him, and every time a girl would walk down the beach in a bikini\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 That's an exaggeration; not every time.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 Dave, no, it was every time, could not stop his neck from turning and watching this girl go all the way down the beach. I remember saying, \u201cI'm right here, and you're looking at her.\u201d He goes, \u201cWhat are you talking about? I never do that.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 I denied the whole thing because I really didn't think I had a problem. Then, when she said that\u2014and again, the chapter is all about this discussion\u2014I then said, \u201cWell, every guy does that.\u201d Then I sat down with God, and again, this was very early in our marriage, 42 years ago, and I'm like, \u201cIs this a problem?\u201d Yep, and it was. So it was the first time in my life I said, \u201cI\u2019ve got to attack this,\u201d and I did.<\/p>\n<p>And so anyway, long story short, the next day I go to write my next chapter and I'm sitting there. I'm like, \u201cWait a minute. If she wrote \u2018Dave's Neck Problem\u2014Ann's Perspective,\u2019 I'm going to write \u2018Dave's Neck Problem\u2014Dave's Perspective.\u2019\u201d So I decided I'm going to talk about this conversation, and where it led. Here's why I'm bringing it up. I get halfway through that writing that chapter, and I'm talking about how I got victory. I memorized Scripture. I started to change this area of my life, and I was going to end the chapter, like \u201cThat's a good chapter.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>But it wasn't honest. Because about ten years later in our marriage I started to struggle with pornography. And this was before digital pornography. This was magazines and I had to deal with that.<\/p>\n<p>I remember sitting there with my computer, \u201cDo I get that honest? It says Christian marriage book. I have to.\u201d So I wrote it, and I talked about the struggle, telling Ann, the fights we had in my battle to victory in that area that wasn't instantaneous. It took years and it was a battle.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 And we later said, \u201cThey'll never keep these chapters in the book.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 We even said that to Zondervan when we sent it in. \u201cWe're fine if you don't keep these.\u201d And they came back and said, \u201cThese are two of the best chapters in the book. No Christian authors have been that honest. These are really going to help people.\u201d Why are we bringing this up today, Ann?<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 Because we are talking with Rosie Makinney again today and we're going to talk with her about her book <em>Fight for Love<\/em>. Rosie, welcome to <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p>Rosie:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 Thank you. You guys are awesome. I love that you did that, Dave, and I love that you're talking about it again because it's hard. It's hard to come forward, but as soon\u2014don't you find that as soon as you get stuff out, it completely loses all its power?<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 A thousand percent. And you know this better than anybody. Your book <em>Fight for Lov<\/em>e is a similar story as you found out about your husband's addiction to pornography.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 We started yesterday about that, and if you haven't listened, go back and listen.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 Oh, you have to listen to yesterday because today's really part two. And I've always said as a pastor, even in sermons, I've always said, \u201cIf you keep whatever you're struggling with in the dark, the dark wins.\u201d The second, I mean, the second you bring it into the light, I'm not saying you're healed, but the power gets less. There's something about bringing it into the light.<\/p>\n<p>And even as we talked yesterday, I was hoping that men were listening because a lot of it was for the wives and today will be as well. But if you're a guy struggling like I have struggled, you have to tell someone. That's the first step, someone. It's probably a secret. Nobody knows, and I know what you're thinking: \u201cI won't ever do it again.\u201d I said one time, a month ago or a week ago, \u201cYou're in a war, dude, and somebody needs to be told, a buddy.\u201d And Rosie, I'll ask you, would you tell your wife if you're that guy?<\/p>\n<p>Rosie:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 Absolutely. Because she already knows that something's up. Even if she doesn't know what it's, she knows that something's up.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 Yes! I remember saying to Dave, \u201cSomething's wrong. I feel like there's something between us. What's going on?\u201d And he'd say, \u201cNothing, I'm fine.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 I was in denial.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 But I could feel it. Something was up.<\/p>\n<p>Rosie:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 And those couples where the guy has confessed instead of being discovered, it's an easier start. It's still really hard, but it really does go a long way towards helping the wife feel that she can trust you at least on the aspect of telling the truth. And that's what guys don't really get. They think they're protecting their wives by hiding the truth, but it's not just the acting out. The acting out you might not have very much control over. It's a compulsion. That's what an addiction is. It's doing the stuff even though you don't want to do it.<\/p>\n<p>But the betrayal, you can decide whether or not you tell her about it afterwards. You can decide whether or not you can tell, maybe not her if you're early recovery, but your recovery people before \u201cI'm really triggered. I'm really struggling. I'm circling the drain. I just need to get this out in the light.\u201d Because as you said, it's like it's all in the Scripture. \u201cWalk in the light, as He is in the light, and then you have fellowship, and the blood of his Son, Jesus Christ, will cleanse you from all sin.\u201d We don't have fellowship when we don't walk in the light.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 And I also love Jesus saying, \u201cI have come to set the captive free.\u201d And I think we get into this trap in our marriage, if a husband confesses or a wife shares her struggle, that we think we're just in this trap and we can't get out of it because it keeps coming up and it's this carousel. We're never going to win. But Jesus says He can set us free, but I love that you're giving us steps of how we can become set free.<\/p>\n<p>Rosie:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 And I just want to give that hope. So the guy is, if you're listening to this and you're thinking, \u201cOkay, I'm going to tell her, and I really need to tell somebody,\u201d don\u2019t be surprised when you fall back into it unless you are in a really strong program and working your program. If you are not taking active proactive steps towards recovery, you will slip it back into it because that's the nature of addiction. It is your coping mechanism. So you can't just take the coping mechanism away and go, \u201cWell, I'm not going to have anything I need to cope with in life.\u201d You need to replace it with a healthy coping mechanism, which is intimate relationships with other people, other guys.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 Let's talk about that a little bit because as a pastor for 30 years and being in a lot of men's groups, the general theme in the church in this area or really in any habitual sin area, was \u201cGet the Word of God in your life, get in a men's group\u2014and again, this could be a woman's group\u2014confess your sin.\u201d People say, \u201cWe feel bad for you. You're forgiven. Go home.\u201d And next week you come back and it's like this cycle. It doesn't heal. It's just like a place where we sort of get our wrists slapped and then we just move on. It's like, that just didn't work.<\/p>\n<p>Rosie:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 What really does work?<\/p>\n<p>Rosie:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 I'm really glad that you brought that up because we have these sympathy circles, not recovery circles.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 Oh, that's a good way to say it.<\/p>\n<p>Rosie:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 And the wife is going, \u201cOkay, my husband's going to a recovery group, so I am doing my part. I'm surrendering this. I'm working on my healing the trauma. I'm working on\u2014\"<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 \u2014my response.<\/p>\n<p>Rosie:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 Yeah, \u201cI'm working on my stuff, and he's being taken care of.\u201d However, if he's not in a good recovery group, and that's why I put in the book what to look for in a group, because otherwise you can go to a recovery group for years and the only thing that changes is the wife's heart. And she goes, \u201cYou know what? We've done this for five years. I am done. Nothing is changing.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>And we're like, \u201cYou haven't tried the one thing that works.\u201d I can't hammer this enough. It is possible to be free even if you think \u201cI've tried everything. I'm different. I'm special. I'm unique.\u201d You don't understand. I really am because my husband spent, I don't know, $20,000 over 15 years trying everything, like every weird and wacky therapy you can think of to get rid of this, apart from doing the one thing that works, and that's walking rigorously in the light. And having someone who was brave enough\u2014I'm thinking of his sponsor at the time, who apparently was giving up alcohol and was very bad tempered and very gruff and were just giving the truth really hard. \u201cYou are out of your mind. Go make her a cup of tea. Shut up. Go back.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Because he needed that. He needed to outsource his thinking because his prefrontal cortex was so addled from the damage that the pornography had done. He needed to outsource his thinking to someone who went, \u201cDid you take appropriate steps? Did you confess to someone that you were struggling? Are you looking at what triggers you? Are you looking at what else in your life is triggering you? Are you being intimate with other people to help you cope with the stresses that are now compelling you to act out, to relieve some of that tension?\u201d And it's really hard. Who wants to be honest about themselves?<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 This is different than just saying, \u201cOh, hey, this is what I did this week. We're going to pray for you.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Rosie:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 Oh, yeah.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 Not that that's not important; that is important. But yesterday you said we as women, as wives, need to take a stand. And so you said to your husband\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Rosie:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 Well, I said to my husband, \u201cYou get into help or that's it.\u201d I mean, what I'd say now, what I advise people to say is that you come alongside, and you can only come alongside when you've received enough help and clarity about what's going on to take some of that emotional pressure off of you. And then you can come alongside and look at it objectively, dispassionately and say, \u201cThere's a hole in the boat and we need to fix it, because you are the one who's just put an ax through the bottom of the boat, but I'm sitting in the boat. You are too busy swinging your ax around, but I'm going to ring up for the lifeboat because we are drowning. We are sinking, and our children are in the boat as well.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>And my husband, as I said yesterday, is a therapist. I asked him one day and I said, \u201cHow do guys end up in the office? Do they just one day think, \u2018I'm just fed up with this. I'm going to spend so much money going to see a therapist about this.\u2019 Does that happen?\u201d And he's going, \u201cNo, they arrive with the footprint of their wife on their back\u201d because the wife goes, she goes, \u201cEnough! I can't do this anymore. You are destroying my love for you. You are destroying my faith in myself. You're destroying everything. You're affecting how I'm seeing myself. You are just wrecking everything, and I can't do this anymore. I don't know what to do. This is my only option is to just say, \u2018Stop! Enough!\u2019\u201d<\/p>\n<p>It's only when you feel the grace of God that you can take a good, hard look at yourself, and that's for all of us, isn't it? I mean, in this process, I had to look at myself and my own junk that got me into this mess in the first place. Not that I was in any way responsible for his stuff, but I came to the marriage with a lot of brokenness too. And I had to have a good hard look at myself, and that will take you to your knees. It's only when you realize that we are all broken, we're all sinners, but our hope, our confidence is through Christ. And that enables you to walk in the light.<\/p>\n<p>So walking in the light for a guy means you have to get in touch with all the horrible stuff that you've been suppressing, whether that's anger or resentment or fear, and really be honest because none of us are very nice people underneath, and we need Jesus on an hourly basis.<\/p>\n<p>\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 So if you're trying to suppress that and be a really good person and appear like a really good person, all that energy is going to come out sideways. And if you have conditioned your brain to have pornography as your outlet from a very early age, you are going to go in that direction, even if you know that it is destroying your wife and your works on the line. People do crazy things like the risks that they take or the behavior that they get into. It's insane. But it's all because this is a brain disease. It's curable, but it is a brain disease, and we have to treat it that seriously. And just going back to what you were talking about, Dave, about the groups that guys get into. Sometimes guys don't need to get into a full recovery program. With a bit of accountability, maybe a bit of filtering software, maybe being honest with a few close people, they can have victory and stay sober. Great.<\/p>\n<p>Some guys can\u2019t. I think that becomes problems when the guys who can manage their temptations with a bit of accountability and a bit of filtering software, try and present that as the model, if that makes any sense. Because there's some poor guy sitting there going, \u201cI've tried that. It doesn't work.\u201d I mean, my husband would say he would memorize Scripture in the morning and then act out in the afternoon. He's like, \u201cI have tried so hard. I have really, really, really tried and it didn't work for me.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>So if you're sitting there and thinking, \u201cOh, that's me,\u201d I just want to tell you there is hope. And if you're a wife thinking, \u201cI can't imagine ever trusting him again, or feeling any sort of love for him again,\u201d it is possible. It really is possible. And it isn't by accident that this is happening. God is using this as an invitation for you both to draw close to Him and to each other in a way that you might not have done without this external, horrible crucible of pain that forces you to deal with these issues.<\/p>\n<p>And I'd say to any family that has dealt with this, any couple that has dealt with this, not only are you getting a marriage that is so transparent and vulnerable and rich that you might not have got before, but also you are the greatest strength for your children. Your vulnerability, your courage to tackle this, and your openness is the best gift that you can give your kids.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 I think what you just said, \u201cThis is God's invitation.\u201d I want to hit pause and go, \u201cWait, wait, let's talk about that.\u201d I think when a wife confronts a husband about this issue, or really any sin issue, but we're talking about pornography today, so often the husband can feel attacked. \u201cI don't really have that big a problem.\u201d But I don't think we've ever thought of it as like \u201cGod's invitation is going to be using this scenario to say, \u2018I'm going to just lavish My grace on you, and here's what it's going to look like.\u2019\u201d It's not going to be easy. It's going to be a wife who speaks up and says, \u201cI can't do this anymore. We need to get help.\u201d And it's really a \u201cwe\u201d thing, isn't it?<\/p>\n<p>Rosie:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 That's what I was thinking too, Dave, is I thought for us as wives, this isn't just his problem. I remember the first time someone asked me, \u201cDo you wish he would've never told you that he struggled in this area?\u201d I remember pausing for a minute and thinking, \u201cI'm so glad that he told me about it, because I feel like I know him.\u201d There's an intimacy now, like I truly see, and he sees this in me, my weaknesses, my flaws, the ugly parts of me.<\/p>\n<p>And I see that in him, as well, and I feel like, \u201cOh, I want to battle with him in this.\u201d I'm not taking responsibility for it necessarily, but I'm saying, \u201cHe needs me.\u201d What would it look like me to battle the enemy who really is Satan? He's battling for our husbands, our marriages for us, for our families. What would it look like for us to say, \u201cNo more\u201d? Like \u201cI will,\u201d as you said in your book, \u201cI will fight for my man and my husband and our family.\u201d I feel like you've done that, Rosie.<\/p>\n<p>Rosie:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 In marriage, two become one, and we always go, \u201cOh yes, we become one heart.\u201d What about if we become one brain? And he's just scrambled his brain. He\u2019s rewired his neural pathways. He's got hypo frontality, which is a condition that you get in only two ways. One is a head-on collision, and one is through heavy porn use. It's a shrinkage of this gray matter, your prefrontal cortex, which is where you make your decisions, and you weigh consequences. He\u2019s shrunk that.<\/p>\n<p>He's now become sensitized to pornographic cues. He's got shame going on. His brain's fried; your brain is still working. You can do the research. You can get supported. You can get healthy. You have to be the prefrontal cortex of your collective brain right now and go, \u201cDo you know what? We need help.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>You are used as a tool of repentance; however, it's not you who's bringing him to a place of repentance. You are being used as a catalyst by God for him to put godly sorrow, basically the fear of God will be put into him when you stand firm and you pursue chaste conduct, which is keeping yourself pure. So if he's doing this, you're going, \u201cOkay, but that's not happening in our marriage, and it's not happening in our marriage bed, and if you are filling your mind with this, you're not filling my mind with this.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>It's like two become one. You have to stand firm. And it's not just you, drawing some moral line in the sand; it's you, obeying God. And I think once we empower women to understand that we submit to our husbands, yes, but we submit to the Word of God first. And if he's being disobedient to the Word, we don't do that. We don't capitulate. We stay godly. And that means keeping yourself pure. If you keep yourself pure, you put the fear of God in him because he sees that, and it becomes uncomfortable. It's like, \u201cOh, she's not playing this game anymore. She's not enabling.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>So without a word, you can just draw that firm line in the sand. It's a real, just a mind shift, as you say, take all those personal issues about \u201cIf I just went to the gym more,\u201d \u201cIf I bought more lingerie,\u201d \u201cIf I somehow presented it to him in a way, he'd understand how much it hurts me.\u201d It's doesn't matter. His brain's been hijacked. You need to do consequences. We wouldn't do that with our children. Well, actually we do do that with our children. We try and persuade them, \u201cDo you realize how much this is hurting Mommy?\u201d It's like, \u201cDon't care. I still want to go on the computer.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 I've had so many wives say to me, \u201cHe's choosing this over me because he doesn't love me. What kind of man would say he loves me, wants to be with me. He knows how much this hurts me and he chooses to continually hurt me with it.\u201d That's that brain part that you're saying.<\/p>\n<p>Rosie:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 Totally, totally. And some of them really do think that it's your fault, and that's really hard but you have to understand that their brains have been hijacked. Some of them know it's not your fault and they might just be sort of just gaslighting you, which is horrendous and shouldn't be condoned or overlooked or anything like that. But there are many reasons why he might be resistant to just going, \u201cYou're right. It's time to get help.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 Even as you write in your book, the brain science part of this was not understood for decades. It's somewhat in the last decade or so. I remember Ann and I were flying somewhere to do a marriage conference. We were walking through the airport, and I saw <em>Time<\/em> magazine in a bookstore in the airport. The cover was porn, and it had the big circle with the X like, \u201cDon't do porn.\u201d I'm like, \u201c<em>Time<\/em> magazine?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>So I bought it and basically it was science. And this is not a Christian viewpoint. This is non-Christian man saying, \u201cI've grown up with this. This is the worst thing I've done. It's affected every part of my life. Stay away.\u201d I'm like, \u201cIsn't this interesting?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Rosie:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 For hundreds of years we've been saying from Scripture, \u201cGod says, \u2018Avoid sexual immorality\u2019 because of this.\u201d Now science is confirming it, and the non-Christian world is saying, \u201cThis stuff is really bad. Do you understand what it does to your brain? Neural pathways?\u201d None of that was ever talked about.<\/p>\n<p>It's like God from the beginning said, \u201cI have a life for you that's amazing. Be very careful, especially in this area, because sexual temptation can mess with your brain in a way that other temptations don't. Don\u2019t do it.\u201d And now the unchurched, they're saying, \u201cDon't do it.\u201d\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Rosie:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 Absolutely<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 \u2014thinking we were moralists. Well, actually, God was a moralist, but He was saying, \u201cI know something you don't understand,\u201d and now we do.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 Consequences.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 And so it's one of the best things you can ever do to protect your marriage, and your family is to say, \u201cNo.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Rosie:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 I know. Isn't that wonderful when the Bible is just like, \u201cWe were saying this all along. You weren't listening. There are reasons there's a boundary around sex, and we put it within marriage, and we put it in covenant. There's a reason.\u201d And then science comes along and just says, \u201cAnd this is why.\u201d It's beautiful. And I really think that the church needs to help people with that message, but they also need to be explicit about how demonic this stuff is.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>Rosie:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 This is really nasty stuff. This isn't just watching consensual adults having sex. This is really dark stuff, and it's getting more violent, and it's getting younger.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 And as you said yesterday, it's capturing\u2014did you say one out of three women, girls now?<\/p>\n<p>Rosie:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 And so now it's not only in men and boys, but it's taking our girls, our women. I get mad about that. That's destroying families. I look at this beautiful creation. I think about our sons and our grandkids and our daughters-in-law. I see the beauty in each of them, and to think that Satan is going to come and hijack them so that they will never live in freedom and God's plan for them, that makes me mad. And so I love that you're writing about this.<\/p>\n<p>Rosie:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 Thank You. I so resonate with what you're saying. And it's the reason why our whole ministry, we want to create an army of women.<\/p>\n<p>Ann &amp; Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Rosie:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 We want a whole army of proactive women who are like \u201cEnough! Our children are drowning. Our husbands have been hijacked. If we don't stand up and say something about this, who is?\u201d We need to help reclaim our husbands, and it's not us doing it. It's just we throw them that lifesaver.<\/p>\n<p>If you imagine a guy in a swamp, and we have these conferences for guys, and they're like, \u201cWho's struggling?\u201d and they're all going, \u201cOh, I'm struggling. I'm struggling.\u201d They're going, \u201cWell, just come on out,\u201d and it's like they can't. They're in a swamp. They literally can't. They might want to in that moment in the conference, and then on the way home they're going to get triggered or distracted and they're going to go home and do pornography. They can't get themselves out the swamp and we need to understand that.<\/p>\n<p>And so as a wife, you might be the only person in his entire world who knows he's in the swamp. If you don't do the brave thing and reach out for help, or just not even reach out for help, take the first baby step: just listen to a podcast; get on the journey. If you don't do that, who is going to do that? And I'm telling you, your husband is so much more than who he is now. He might not even know who he is now. We need our guys to stand up now more than ever. We need our guys to be able to stand up.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 The beauty, as we wrap up, is you and Mark are a picture of God's redemption, God's restoration. You can have a porn-free marriage. It's actually possible. I know some listeners are like, \u201cNo, we are so dark.\u201d Listen to this story, get Rosie's book. You can get there. God can do that. That's what He does. He can raise a dead marriage back to life.<\/p>\n<p>Rosie:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 It's better. And the lie\u2014the devil will come in and he'll say to the guy, \u201cBut life is going to be boring without pornography. Life is going to be lackluster. Nothing is going to quite match it.\u201d And it's true for a little while. But then when you regain control, you are going to realize that actually you have an amazing life, and there are possibilities now open to you. It's so hard to come back from that, like \u201cMy fairytale wedding that I dreamt of has been utterly ruined. I can't get that back.\u201d And I'm saying you have something better. Yours is not Cinderella. It is Shrek, okay? He's an ogre. You are an ogre, but they have a much better time.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 That's so good. This is <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em>, and we're Ann and Dave Wilson, and we've been talking with Rosie Makinney. I'm so grateful for her. And that should be something we tell every newlywed couple.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 Yeah, your marriage is going to be like Shrek, not Cinderella. And you know what? There's a lot of truth there, especially if the thing we've been talking about today enters your marriage: porn, the struggle with porn. And so if that's where you're living, or maybe you know somebody that could really value from listening to these programs, share those with them.<\/p>\n<p>But also you may want to get her book. It's called <em>Fight for Love: How to Take Your Marriage Back from Porn<\/em>, and we've got it in our shop. You can go get it at FamilyLifeToday.com. It's in the show notes there. Just click the link and order the book. Or if you'd rather just give us a call at 1-800-358-6329. That's 800-\u201cF\u201d as in Family, \u201cL\u201d as in Life, and then the word \u201cTODAY.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 Hey, and if you need more help, you can go to FamilyLife.com\/MarriageHelp. We've put together some of our best material on marriage.<\/p>\n<p>Dave:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 \u2014and it's free.<\/p>\n<p>Ann:\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 It's free, and you can go to that website. Again, that's FamilyLife.com\/MarriageHelp.<\/p>\n<p><em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife<sup>\u00ae<\/sup>, a Cru<sup>\u00ae <\/sup>Ministry. Helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.<\/p>\n<p><strong>\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>If you\u2019ve benefited from the <em>FamilyLife Today<\/em> transcripts, would you consider <a href=\"http:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/donate\">donating today<\/a> to help defray the costs of producing them and making them available online?<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>Copyright <sup>\u00a9<\/sup> 2025 FamilyLife. 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