{"id":280566,"date":"2023-04-19T09:15:00","date_gmt":"2023-04-19T13:15:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/normal-or-narcissist-laurel-slade-waggoner\/"},"modified":"2025-05-09T10:19:52","modified_gmt":"2025-05-09T14:19:52","slug":"normal-or-narcissist-laurel-slade-waggoner","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/normal-or-narcissist-laurel-slade-waggoner\/","title":{"rendered":"Normal or Narcissist? Laurel Slade-Waggoner"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>How can you tell if you&#8217;re dealing with a narcissist? Therapist Laurel Slade-Waggoner relays the story of her own dysfunctional, destructive marriage.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>How can you tell if you&#8217;re dealing with a narcissist? Therapist Laurel Slade-Waggoner relays the story of her own dysfunctional, destructive marriage. Show Notes and Resources Grab her book: Don&#8217;t Let Their Crazy Make You Crazy: How to Stay Sane and Stron&#8230;<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":47000,"featured_media":280866,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"audio","audio_file":"https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/6ec69598-7b30-48f2-9d11-b154011f3cb5\/audio.mp3","podmotor_file_id":"","podmotor_episode_id":"","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:26:35","filesize":"24.38M","filesize_raw":"","date_recorded":"2023-04-19 09:15:00","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[],"tags":[2348],"podcast_series":[8623],"cwp_profile":[9844],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-280566","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","tag-narcissist","podcast_series-normal-or-narcissist-laurel-slade-waggoner","cwp_profile-laurel-slade-waggoner","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/04\/image-scaled.jpg?w=1024","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/280566\/normal-or-narcissist-laurel-slade-waggoner","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/280566\/normal-or-narcissist-laurel-slade-waggoner","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"cvobUmqc7q\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/normal-or-narcissist-laurel-slade-waggoner\/\">Normal or Narcissist? Laurel Slade-Waggoner<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/normal-or-narcissist-laurel-slade-waggoner\/embed\/#?secret=cvobUmqc7q\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Normal or Narcissist? Laurel Slade-Waggoner&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"cvobUmqc7q\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"uagb_featured_image_src":{"full":["https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/04\/image-scaled.jpg",1024,1024,true]},"uagb_author_info":{"display_name":"Margaret","author_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/author\/margaret-coylefamilylife-com\/"},"uagb_comment_info":0,"uagb_excerpt":"How can you tell if you're dealing with a narcissist? Therapist Laurel Slade-Waggoner relays the story of her own dysfunctional, destructive marriage. Show Notes and Resources Grab her book: Don't Let Their Crazy Make You Crazy: How to Stay Sane and Stron...","meta_box":{"show_notes":"<p>Grab her book: <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product\/dont-let-their-crazy-make-you-crazy\/\">Don't Let Their Crazy Make You Crazy<\/a>: How to Stay Sane and Strong When the Narcissist in Your Life is Trying to Control or Abuse You.<br \/>\nWondering how kids affect the decision to stay in your marriage? Begin by asking the questions in our blog post, <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/articles\/topics\/marriage\/troubled-marriage\/should-we-stay-together-for-the-kids\/\">Should We Stay Together for the Kids?<\/a><br \/>\nFind resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/?orderby=date\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<br \/>\nFind more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<br \/>\nHelp others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<br \/>\nCheck out all the FamilyLife podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/p>\n","transcript_url":"","transcript_content":"<p>FamilyLife Today\u00ae National Radio Version (time edited) Transcript<br \/>\nReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete.<\/p>\n<p>Daily Title Normal or Narcissist?<\/p>\n<p>Guest: Laurel Slade-Waggoner<br \/>\nFrom the series: Normal or Narcissist? (Day 1 of 2)<br \/>\nAir date: April 19, 2023<\/p>\n<p>Laurel: Someone with a personality disorder has what they call cognitive rigidity. They\u2019re not able to be wise like the Bible says to add to their learning. Fools: that's what God calls narcissism. They hate instruction. They will not listen, and they will not make changes, so they're just very rigid in their ways and you can't work with someone that won't listen.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I\u2019m Ann Wilson.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And I\u2019m Dave Wilson, and you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com or on the FamilyLife\u00ae app.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: This is FamilyLife Today!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Here's a question I'd love to ask you.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I have no idea where you're going.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I know you don't. That's why it's going to be sort of fun. Do you think I'm a narcissist? [Laughter] Go ahead and laugh. I'm not kidding. I want to hear your answer.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I would say no, you're not. But there were times\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Are you being that, really honest because you said at times\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes. There were times in the beginning of our marriage.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Oh, the beginning, 42 years ago.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes. I thought \u201cYou are so selfish,\u201d not thinking I was selfish of course. I was too, but that's a good question. Why are you asking that?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Well, I mean, I'd love to know a definition, which we're going to get today, but there have been times when I thought \u201cI have narcissistic qualities,\u201d and you know I told you I was sitting with a pastor not too long ago and he said, \u201cEvery mega church pastor is a narcissist.\u201d I\u2019m like, \u201cOh boy, there's some real truth there and that could define me.\u201d I don't want to be, but sometimes I don't think we know. So today is the day we\u2019re going to find out.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I know a lot of women that say they're married to a narcissist.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You don't think husbands say the same thing?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I'm sure they do. I think a lot of us wonder, \u201cWhat is a narcissist? Am I a narcissist? Are my kids narcissists? Is my daughter married to one?\u201d There are a lot of questions about this.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, so we\u2019ve got to find out today. We\u2019ve got Laurel Slade-Waggoner with us. She will know how to answer this question. [Laughter] First time on FamilyLife Today; Laurel, welcome.<\/p>\n<p>Laurel: Thank you for having me. I'm very excited to be here.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: We are too; tell us a little bit about what you do.<\/p>\n<p>Laurel: So right now, I'm doing a lot of podcasting and book writing. I'm also a licensed mental health counselor and a licensed marriage and family therapist and board certified professional Christian counselor.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You\u2019ve got all these letters behind your title. I'm like, \u201cShe knows what she's doing.\u201d But you counsel people, right?<\/p>\n<p>Laurel: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And you've written about narcissism. I love the title of your book, Don't Let Their Crazy Make You Crazy. I'm guessing you came up with that.<\/p>\n<p>Laurel: Yes, because tens of my clients were coming in saying \u201cHe is driving me crazy\u201d or \u201cI think I'm a narcissist. I think I'm crazy.\u201d The word crazy was just being thrown around, so I said \u201cOkay, you're not crazy.\u201d I tell all of my clients, \u201cYou're not crazy; you're traumatized.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Oh, interesting.<\/p>\n<p>Laurel: \u201cYou're precious.\u201d That's why the first chapter in the book is You Are Precious. A lot of people who have an authentic narcissist in their life don't really, don't really understand that they are in fact precious, man or woman.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: They don't think they are because what?<\/p>\n<p>Laurel: They've been told that they're not for so long that they've absorbed those projections and they no longer are in contact with who God says they are and who they truly are.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: That's so sad.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: It is sad, isn't it? Can we start where I was saying, \u201cOkay, am I a narcissist?\u201d [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Laurel: Are you asking me for my clinical opinion?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I mean, you don't know me very well. Obviously, you can't tell if I am but\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: She probably walks in a room like, \u201cOh, there's one.\u201d There's certain signs or things that would be\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: It\u2019s like a number above my head. On a scale of one to ten you\u2019re a nine point eight. Define it a little bit. I mean, it's a term of a lot of us have heard. I just used it and I'm not even sure I would know what to tell somebody if they said, \u201cWhat is a narcissist?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Laurel: It makes me really sad. The culture has stolen the word and diluted what it truly is. It is a psychiatric disorder. Narcissistic personality disorder is a psychiatric disorder. It's a pervasive pattern of interacting where there's a lack of empathy, where there's an excessive need for affirmation, where there's interpersonal exploitation powering up over another person. They're drawn to the grandiose. Sometimes they think they have to associate only with special people. They can be haughty.<\/p>\n<p>There\u2019re all kinds of narcissism though. There's overt narcissism where there's a lot of charm and a lot of personality. And then there's covert narcissism where there's a lot of control, an abuse that happens behind closed doors. It's misunderstood.<\/p>\n<p>To understand narcissism, you have to understand what a personality disorder is. That means that there is an enduring pattern of that behavior, so it's not somebody, what you were talking about, that sins occasionally. We all fall short of the glory of God. We all are selfish at our core. That's not what I'm talking about in this book and in the kid\u2019s book.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: There's somewhat of an excessive because when you're saying some of that, there's like, \u201cOh\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I know people\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u201cI\u2019ve got a little bit of that, you know.\u201d There's an excessive need for affirmation. There\u2019re some control issues here and that's just a normal sinner in some ways, but you know, what separates that? I mean, it's excessive control; it's excessive behavior over time or\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Laurel: Yes, so to look at what unhealthy is, maybe we can talk a little bit about what healthy is.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: That would be great.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Oh, what a good idea.<\/p>\n<p>Laurel: In a healthy relationship or marriage or any relationship really, there's dynamics that are all reciprocal or mutual. There's mutual honesty; there's mutual transparency; there's mutual care, concern, and effort. There's mutual respect for time and feelings and priorities. And this is the big key: there's the mutual ability to repent, say sorry, take ownership and make changes to collaborate for what's best for both people.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: You're making that sound like this is a big one; that ability to repent, to say \u201cI'm sorry.\u201d Would you say that's really difficult for a true narcissist?<\/p>\n<p>Laurel: I would say it's impossible.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Oh wow.<\/p>\n<p>Laurel: Because they see things through the lenses of self-serving, so they don't take ownership for how they hurt another person. One of the clinical criteria, according to the DSM-5\u2014that's our diagnosing manual\u2014is they treat others with a lack of empathy, so they don't internalize another person's pain. They don't acknowledge that their words or behaviors cause someone else's pain. If it gets them what they want, then it's acceptable to them.<\/p>\n<p>They have\u2014someone with a personality disorder has what they call cognitive rigidity. They're not able to be wise like the Bible says, to add to their learning. Fools: that's what God calls narcissism is fools. They do not like instruction. They hate instruction. They will not listen, and they will not make changes, so they're just very rigid in their ways and you can't work with someone that won't listen.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: It's so interesting. I'm thinking of people that are pre-married or they're engaged or they're dating, and for me, as you said that, that should be an alarm going off.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Like a red flag.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Laurel: Absolutely.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Like, \u201cOh, he never has apologized. He never has admitted he's wrong,\u201d and they can twist it to make it feel like it's my fault.<\/p>\n<p>Laurel: Exactly. Exactly. So narcissistic interactional patterns are people who blame shift like that, who gaslight, who try to make you think that you're the one that is at all\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u201cYou're crazy.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Laurel: You\u2019re crazy, you're needy, you're too sensitive, all those things. They try to get people to make decisions out of fear, obligation or guilt, fogging them. So that's the exploitation. They want people to serve them.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I'm thinking about a person that's being abused even physically. I don't know very much about this in terms of the clinical part, but doesn't it seem like they'll be abusive but then the next day, from what I've heard, they can be very repentant like \u201cI'll never do that again.\u201d Is that true or are they not repentant?<\/p>\n<p>Laurel: Well, I actually did a podcast on that; the difference between regret and repentance. Regret is very sorry for self, very sorry that they're enduring consequences. So maybe I'll have a couple come in and he's been unfaithful and he's crying, saying he wants his family. He's miserable, but there's no ownership. \u201cI'm miserable. I'm sad. I don't like being a single parent. I need to get back in the home.\u201d It's all about him and his feelings. He's regretful of that decision.<\/p>\n<p>But repentance is \u201cI don't want to be that person anymore.\u201d I\u2014kind of like David's heart in Psalm 51\u2014\"I've sinned against God. I don't like who I am. Please help me change.\u201d And so that's what the Bible calls being wise, is they want to add to their learning, so they don't make those mistakes again and hurt somebody in the future.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: That's a that's a big difference. That's good.<\/p>\n<p>Laurel: Regret versus repentance.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes, that's really good.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Do you see people that you\u2014and I guess, and you look at people and you can pretty quickly identify narcissistic behaviors. Do you see them change?<\/p>\n<p>Laurel: That's a tough one. I believe that narcissists can change only because with Christ all things are possible. But they don't change. They will not change. That's part of biblical foolishness and that's part of clinical narcissism, that rigidity. They don't think they need to change so the prognosis that someone with a personality disorder, an authentic personality disorder, will change is very poor. I've seen a few change, but it's because something catastrophic has happened. Maybe they've lost all their money. Maybe they've had a heart attack and they realize, \u201cWow, I can't control everything the way I thought I can.\u201d Because really, narcissism is about control. It's about wanting to be in charge. They don't see a need for a Savior; they're their own savior.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Wow. Let me ask you, Laurel. A lot of times we write books about things we've experienced. Have you experienced this narcissism in your own life with someone else?<\/p>\n<p>Laurel: Yes, I have and that's why I think a lot of people come to counseling because they know I understand. Because a lot of people out there don't understand and that they endure further abuse.<\/p>\n<p>I grew up with narcissistic parents, very financially irresponsible, lots of moving, evictions, different things like that.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Both parents.<\/p>\n<p>Laurel: Yes. But my dad was very charming, and my mom just busied herself with pets and different things like that. I had a very, very chaotic upbringing. What did I learn about a man? A man is charming. Everything will always be okay, but you don't have to be responsible, so that's what I dated and that's what I eventually married.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Where did you fit in? Did you have siblings?<\/p>\n<p>Laurel: I have a younger sister.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And so, you're the oldest. Growing up like that, did it cause, like, were you anxious? Were you thinking, like, \u201cWhat are we doing?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Laurel: Yes, older children especially are very prone to becoming parentified, becoming little adults at the age of six or seven. I started to learn that I had to take responsibility for my parents\u2019 feelings so when my mom complained about my dad, I would be there. When my dad complained about my mom, I would be there. You just kind of lose your sense of self, and that's how you learn to exist, so it was very comfortable for me to be attracted to a narcissist.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: It was normal.<\/p>\n<p>Laurel: I was confused. I thought familiarity was attraction, but it wasn't. It was just comfortable because it was familiar, so I married someone who was very narcissistic, and we tried to make it work. He struggled with alcohol, struggled with overspending, anger toward the kids, and lots of adultery.<\/p>\n<p>And so that's when I ran to my church and was referred to Dr. Clark's action plan and developed my own. I call it a Joshua 24:15 plan where I gave him choices. Joshua 24:15 says [paraphrase] \u201cIf serving the Lord is undesirable to you, you are free to choose what God's you serve, whether it's the gods of your ancestors, I think by the Euphrates, or the gods of the living land, they say the Amorites. But as for me and my household, I'm going to serve the Lord.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: That's a big decision. I'm guessing you had like an aha moment, like wait. This isn't just me being crazy. Was that a big deal for you?<\/p>\n<p>Laurel: We ended up, I ended up giving him the choice. He said \u201cOkay, I will work on it, I will do these things.\u201d And then he didn't follow through. He didn't so we ended up divorcing. We were divorced for three years but then he came back and said \u201cI want my family. I don't like being a single dad. I don't like this this. I don't like not having meals. I don't like this life. This isn't the way it should be.\u201d I said \u201cOkay, but you have to go back to church. You have to join a couple\u2019s group.\u201d And he's \u201cFine.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>So, we did. But I didn't understand that all that language, which is he was sorry for himself. He wasn't really taking ownership that \u201cHey, I didn't like who I was when I was that person, so we remarried.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Did he ever say, \u201cI'm sorry\u201d?<\/p>\n<p>Laurel: No.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Never. Even when he wanted to come back?<\/p>\n<p>Laurel: No.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: And he never said, \u201cCan you forgive me?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Laurel: No, and those are great points. When I teach people about like, an authentic apology, an authentic repentance, I have a handout like, The Eight A's of an Apology. There's different steps and they have to admit. They'd have to ask for forgiveness. They have to make amends. And the big one at the bottom is they have to adjust. They have to\u2014that's what repentance is, is there's a turning, there's a\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: --life change, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Laurel: Of course, toward a different way of interacting and so there wasn't any of that, Ann.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I\u2019m sorry.<\/p>\n<p>Laurel: But I wanted my family and thought that's what God wanted so we remarried.<br \/>\nAnn: He did remarry.<\/p>\n<p>Laurel: And then\u2014he was kind of a slow cycler, so he was okay for a few years and then started that behavior. And then by that time I had a thriving practice. I was speaking at church. I love my clients, and I was just so mad. I was speaking to women about this beautiful testimony about how God had saved our marriage and had a standing ovation for God; that God had taken a marriage and a divorce and then turned it into a beautiful remarriage. I was so mad at him for taking that testimony away. So mad at my ex-husband for taking that testimony away.<\/p>\n<p>I did what I always did: ran to my pastor and said, \u201cWhat do I do now? I just don't know. I love my clients. Do I just sit and suffer silently? What do I do?\u201d And he said, \u201cWeren't you here ten years ago saying the same things? Enough already. God will give you a different testimony, but it can be just as powerful.\u201d And he was he was so right. Because my favorite parts of my job\u2014I've talked with people all over the country\u2014is hearing, \u201cOh my goodness, I didn't know what narcissism was. I heard you on the radio\u201d or \u201cSomeone gave me your book and I didn't know but you've been through everything that I feel.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I'm sorry that you went through all that. That's a lot. And even the shame you felt getting remarried and having that fall apart. All of us have that thought of like, \u201cWhat are people going to think of me now?\u201d So that had to be super hard.<\/p>\n<p>Laurel: Well, now\u2014then I did. I really understood regret versus repentance and healthy and you know, by that time I was just devouring anything I could get my hands on as far as Christ-like behavior and surrender and things like that.<\/p>\n<p>Men don't typically like to go to divorce care or join groups. They don't like to put themselves out there and share their feelings right away. When I would work with gentlemen who are going through a divorce, I want them to be loved on by the church. And so, there's a gentleman running divorce care at our church, and he would take the men out to lunch and then they'd eventually get connected. He's kind of my conduit to getting them in. He had gone through a divorce, years prior, and he just was a quiet soul at church that I knew of. He was a good man.<\/p>\n<p>Then he came to me and told me he wasn't going to be doing divorce care anymore. He was out of that season and stuff and so we eventually started dating in a healthy way and got remarried.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Good for you.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And now what, five kids?<\/p>\n<p>Laurel: Five and two grandkids.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Wow.<\/p>\n<p>Laurel: We made a lot of mistakes. We were super careful. We love Ron Deal. [Laughter] We were super cognizant of the kids. We kept two houses for a whole year so that we wouldn't force them to blend, and they were the ones saying \u201cWe don't like this. We all want to live together.\u201d I know I've been through probably everything [Laughter] marital you can possibly go through.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: You\u2019re very qualified, not only in your education but\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014experience and, yes. I mean your knowledge and your experience. I'm sitting here thinking \u201cWhat would you say to somebody to keep them from making their crazy making them crazy?\u201d I mean, do you say divorce? Do you say\u2014I mean what do you say when they\u2019re listening right now and they're going, \u201cI am married to a controlling, unrepentant\u2014you know, continuing behavior is not changing, a lot of regret, maybe, but no repentance\u201d? Obviously, I think we can miss that even in our own lives. We can see it in our spouse and not ourselves.<\/p>\n<p>But if somebody's really listening and they're like, \u201cWhoa, my spouse has all those. Do I divorce? Do I get counseling? I've tried to change him or her for years and nothing's changed.\u201d What would you say?<\/p>\n<p>Laurel: I don't want people to think by my testimony, that they have to get divorced. I don't ever tell anyone to get divorced. What I tell them is that we've got a really look at what God does when someone is biblically foolish and not willing to look at things a different way, and we've got to do what God says. We start there and so we start by \u201cWhat does God say?\u201d Step one, we need to speak the truth in love, right? We give people the benefit of the doubt and we go to them with our concerns. I have a whole process of how to do that.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes. I like in your book you have acrostics everywhere. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I know, and we should also say\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: As a preacher, I love those, man.<\/p>\n<p>Laurel: You do?<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I get do not and you have the Eight A\u2019s of Apology. [Laughter] It's great.<\/p>\n<p>Laurel: Rick Warren; it's years of reading Rick Warren\u2019s devotions.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I also like that it's a 30 day; it's a skill-based journey to redemption. I like that and so I think that's really helpful. Why did you decide to do it like that?<\/p>\n<p>Laurel: I think probably because I spent so much time in devotions. It is just in me to do that, and I wanted people not to miss out on the information and really camp out and saturate themselves in that day. Like day one is you are precious. I don't want that skipped. I don't want them skipping to read about the narcissistic behavior. They first need to understand their own preciousness. So that was my wish and dream was that people wouldn't methodically go through it one day at a time, but I don't know if many do.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Thank you for helping us.<\/p>\n<p>Laurel: You're welcome.<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: Hi, I'm Shelby Abbott and you've been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson with Laurel Slade Waggoner on FamilyLife Today. These are the practical truths that Laurel has laid out for us to help us understand what the Bible actually teaches and what it doesn't. Or how we've added on or subtracted from what the truth is in Scripture. I love this because there are so many who are under the control of another person, and they need help.<\/p>\n<p>Laurel has written a book called Don't Let Their Crazy Make You Crazy: How to Stay Sane and Strong When the Narcissist in Your Life is Trying to Control or Abuse You. This book really helps you to understand what narcissism is, how it can be used as a weapon, and what to do when you're under specific control by a narcissist or an abuser in particular. You could pick up a copy of Laurel's book at FamilyLifeToday.com.<\/p>\n<p>And while you're there, you could partner with us at FamilyLife. When you do, we're going to send you a copy of Nana Dolce's book The Seed of the Woman. Nana was on earlier this week. She's written a book that basically has 30 narratives that point to Jesus specifically through the eyes of women. It's a really encouraging book, and it is our thanks to you when you partner financially with us to help more families hear more conversations like the one you heard today. You can partner with us online at FamilyLifeToday.com or you can give us a call at 800-358-6329.<\/p>\n<p>Now, when you partner with us, it could be a one-time gift or a recurring monthly gift as well. Again, the number is 800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Now, tomorrow, Dave and Ann are going to be joined again by Laurel Slade-Waggoner. She's going to talk to us about how she protected her two kids from her narcissistic spouse. That's coming up tomorrow. We hope you'll join us.<\/p>\n<p>On behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Shelby Abbott. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry.<br \/>\nHelping you pursue the relationships that matter most.<\/p>\n<p>We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?<\/p>\n<p>Copyright \u00a9 2023 FamilyLife\u00ae. All rights reserved.<\/p>\n<p>www.FamilyLife<\/p>\n","theme_header_position":"Sticky","post_header_is_sticky":"default","is_header_overlay":"0"},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/280566","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/47000"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=280566"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/280866"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=280566"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=280566"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=280566"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=280566"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=280566"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=280566"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}