{"id":280565,"date":"2023-04-20T09:15:00","date_gmt":"2023-04-20T13:15:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/protecting-my-kids-in-a-dangerous-marriage-laurel-slade-waggoner\/"},"modified":"2025-05-09T10:20:13","modified_gmt":"2025-05-09T14:20:13","slug":"protecting-my-kids-in-a-dangerous-marriage-laurel-slade-waggoner","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/protecting-my-kids-in-a-dangerous-marriage-laurel-slade-waggoner\/","title":{"rendered":"Protecting My Kids in a Dangerous Marriage: Laurel Slade-Waggoner"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>Therapist Laurel Slade-Waggoner talks about protecting her kids in her dangerous marriage\u2014while staying strong amidst a narcissist&#8217;s attempts to control.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Therapist Laurel Slade-Waggoner talks about protecting her kids in her dangerous marriage\u2014while staying strong amidst a narcissist&#8217;s attempts to control. Show Notes and Resources Grab her book: Don&#8217;t Let Their Crazy Make You Crazy: How to Stay Sane and &#8230;<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":47000,"featured_media":280866,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"audio","audio_file":"https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/d4a02173-78ac-41c6-bbef-b154011f3b44\/audio.mp3","podmotor_file_id":"","podmotor_episode_id":"","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:30:36","filesize":"28.06M","filesize_raw":"","date_recorded":"2023-04-20 09:15:00","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[],"tags":[2347],"podcast_series":[8623],"cwp_profile":[9844],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-280565","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","tag-dangerous-marriage","podcast_series-normal-or-narcissist-laurel-slade-waggoner","cwp_profile-laurel-slade-waggoner","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/04\/image-scaled.jpg?w=1024","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/280565\/protecting-my-kids-in-a-dangerous-marriage-laurel-slade-waggoner","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/280565\/protecting-my-kids-in-a-dangerous-marriage-laurel-slade-waggoner","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"Pkky16YMwX\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/protecting-my-kids-in-a-dangerous-marriage-laurel-slade-waggoner\/\">Protecting My Kids in a Dangerous Marriage: Laurel Slade-Waggoner<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/protecting-my-kids-in-a-dangerous-marriage-laurel-slade-waggoner\/embed\/#?secret=Pkky16YMwX\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Protecting My Kids in a Dangerous Marriage: Laurel Slade-Waggoner&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"Pkky16YMwX\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"uagb_featured_image_src":{"full":["https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/04\/image-scaled.jpg",1024,1024,true]},"uagb_author_info":{"display_name":"Margaret","author_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/author\/margaret-coylefamilylife-com\/"},"uagb_comment_info":0,"uagb_excerpt":"Therapist Laurel Slade-Waggoner talks about protecting her kids in her dangerous marriage\u2014while staying strong amidst a narcissist's attempts to control. Show Notes and Resources Grab her book: Don't Let Their Crazy Make You Crazy: How to Stay Sane and ...","meta_box":{"show_notes":"<ul>\n<li>Wondering how kids affect the decision to stay in your marriage? Begin by asking the questions in our blog post, <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/articles\/topics\/marriage\/troubled-marriage\/should-we-stay-together-for-the-kids\/\">Should We Stay Together for the Kids?<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Find resources from this podcast at <a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product-category\/radio-resources\/?orderby=date\">shop.familylife.com<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Find more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<\/li>\n<li>Help others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Check out all the FamilyLife podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n","transcript_url":"","transcript_content":"<p>FamilyLife Today\u00ae National Radio Version (time edited) Transcript<br \/>\nReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete.<\/p>\n<p>Protecting My Kids in a Dangerous Marriage<\/p>\n<p>Guest: Laurel Slade-Waggoner<br \/>\nFrom the series: Normal or Narcissist? (Day 2 of 2)<br \/>\nAir date: April 20, 2023<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I would say every parent has a built-in mechanism to protect their children.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Yes, it\u2019s like a radar that\u2019s continually going off of \u201cAre they okay?\u201d and then there\u2019s a different kind of radar that goes off when they start dating.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, I was thinking there were times when you would just go in the house because of your protection thing.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Oh, when I\u2019m just protecting physically.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I would take them on some sort of adventure, and Ann would be like, \u201cI can\u2019t even watch.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u201cI need to go in the house and just pray the rest of the time.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Did any of them get hurt?<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Um, no, but it\u2019s because of my prayers. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I\u2019m Ann Wilson.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And I\u2019m Dave Wilson, and you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com or on the FamilyLife\u00ae app.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: This is FamilyLife\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave and Ann: \u2014Today!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I\u2019m thinking of that protection mechanism when you find yourself in a marriage and you don\u2019t trust your spouse with the kids\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Oh, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014and you\u2019re afraid. Maybe they\u2019re controlling, maybe they\u2019re overbearing, maybe they don\u2019t have any boundaries. I don\u2019t know what it is.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I don\u2019t know if dads do this, but as a mom, I would continually think of \u201cThis is going to mess them up for the future. This could really mess them up what I\u2019m doing.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I think what would be really fearful is when you have a spouse that you\u2019re seeing things or maybe even an ex-spouse who is doing things when the kids visit, and you don\u2019t have any control over that.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, that\u2019s scary. We need some help. We\u2019ve got Laurel Slade-Waggoner back in the studio with us today.<\/p>\n<p>Welcome back, Laurel.<\/p>\n<p>Laurel: Thank you for having me back.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You\u2019ve written this book with this crazy title that I love, Don\u2019t Let their Crazy Make Your Kids Crazy; subtitle: How to Shield Your Children from Their Narcissistic Parents Control and Manipulation.<\/p>\n<p>That resonates; it\u2019s like, \u201cI want to protect my kids in all kinds of situations.\u201d But I feel like we already mentioned it, \u201cMy spouse is doing something that I\u2019m afraid is going to make my kids crazy.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: If you haven\u2019t heard our previous session with you [Laurel] go back and listen to that, because it\u2019s really about marriage. It was titled \u201cDon\u2019t Let Their Crazy Make You Crazy.\u201d Now we\u2019re going to talk about kids. But even that first time we talked to you, we were defining \u201cWhat\u2019s a narcissist?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Let\u2019s say you have a call in; you have a call in. Our listeners are like, \u201cI want to call, and I want to ask this.\u201d They say, \u201cI think I might be married to a narcissist. I feel like this is affecting me and our whole household. How do I know if they really are a narcissist?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Laurel: That\u2019s a good question. I get asked that all the time. Looking at what a healthy person would do. A healthy person, if you confront them, if you said, \u201cPlease don\u2019t take the boys ziplining when they\u2019re four years old.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u201c\u2014when they\u2019re three months old.\u201d [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Laurel: Right.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I didn\u2019t do it when they were three months old or four. [Laughter] But I did do it when they were 12.<\/p>\n<p>Laurel: If you show them what they were doing, how it made you feel, what you would need, and you went to them and they said, \u201cGet over it. You\u2019re too sensitive. I\u2019m going to do this. They\u2019ll be fine\u201d; no regard for what\u2019s in the best interest of the children. That\u2019s someone who is not really thinking of anyone but their own pleasure or comfort.<\/p>\n<p>A narcissist is somebody who does that habitually. It\u2019s not just a one- or two-time occurrence. It\u2019s somebody who, when you bring things to their attention, when you attempt to collaborate, they don\u2019t. They are 100 percent in power and control, and there is no collaboration.<\/p>\n<p>I put a quote at the beginning of the book: \u201cNarcissists don\u2019t co-parent; they counter-parent.\u201d So, they not only don\u2019t listen; they interfere. The whole book is about equipping your children. That\u2019s why there\u2019s a picture of a shield on the front. God is our shield, and we have to figure out how to shield our children from those behaviors so that they can live out the plan that God has for them.<\/p>\n<p>They have to know who they are; they have to know what to do; so that they don\u2019t internalize that narcissistic person\u2019s way of living.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I\u2019m thinking of\u2014because I\u2019m a woman\u2014I\u2019m thinking of having a daughter. If I\u2019m married to a narcissist, I could hear him\u2014and if we go to church, I could hear him saying, \u201cYou need to be submissive to me.\u201d Then you have your children, and especially your daughter, watching a mom want to be biblical, want to follow Jesus, she wants to do what the Bible says, so she probably has this \u201cAm I following Jesus by just having him rule and control the entire household?\u201d What would you say to that?<\/p>\n<p>Laurel: I would say there\u2019s a lot of confusion about submission. I would draw out what I believe healthy submission is. Let\u2019s say, if you\u2019re talking to your children, and you\u2019re concerned that your spouse is engaging in some dangerous behavior; let\u2019s say alcoholism. You don\u2019t want your children to be around that alcoholism or you don\u2019t want your children to want to engage in alcoholic behavior. You can draw out and say, \u201cOkay, at the bottom there is children.\u201d Then you draw an arrow up and then \u201cThere\u2019s the parent.\u201d Then you draw an arrow up. \u201cThen there\u2019s Jesus and the Holy Spirit and the Bible.\u201d Then you draw another arrow up to the Heavenly Father.<\/p>\n<p>Let\u2019s just say \u201cDad\u201d for simplicity\u2019s sake. If Dad doesn\u2019t want to listen [to] what God has to say about alcohol; it says, \u201cDo not be filled with wine but instead be filled with the Holy Spirit\u201d [Ephesians 5:18], because being filled with wine only leads to debauchery.<\/p>\n<p>If Dad doesn\u2019t want to listen to that and he veers out, we\u2019re going to have to not listen to what Dad says about alcohol; we\u2019re going to have to listen to what Jesus and the Bible say about alcohol. I\u2019m going to tell you what that is and we\u2019re going to get some protection in place, so you don\u2019t have to be in Daddy\u2019s presence when he\u2019s drinking too much alcohol.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: We\u2019re not following them into sin. As we would say in our Weekend to Remember\u00ae marriage conferences, submission does not mean we follow our spouse into sin. We continue to follow Jesus. We demonstrate that and tell our kids that, \u201cWe\u2019re going to follow Jesus. This is what He\u2019s saying.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Laurel: Exactly, because submission is ideally a beautiful thing about connection. We\u2019re connected to somebody who is submitted to Christ in a beautiful, powerful way, but if they don\u2019t want to submit to Christ\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014or if they\u2019re an unbeliever\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Laurel: \u2014we don\u2019t want to break our connection with Christ, so we have to stay connected to Him and to biblical instruction.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Taking that example to the next step, if that mom is protecting\u2014she wants to protect her kids, so Dad\u2019s getting drunk; Dad comes home and goes out again the next night or the next weekend and comes home, and this pattern just keeps going, is there a decision at some point? \u201cWe\u2019ve got to break out of this,\u201d or do they just stay and let their dad\u2019s behavior continue?<\/p>\n<p>Laurel: That\u2019s where I think we talked about on the prior episode that Joshua 24:15 is a powerful, powerful Scripture. The end of that verse is \u201c\u2026as for me and my household, I\u2019m going to serve the Lord.\u201d [Paraphrased]<\/p>\n<p>I had to go through this with my boys. I sat them down and told them my Joshua 24:15 plan that we were going to invite Dad into the plan of sobriety. I explained Joshua 24:15, and then [drew] another diagram. I love diagrams, so when I was counselling kids, and even grownups, I\u2019d draw a lot of diagrams.<\/p>\n<p>But I drew a stick figure of me and the boys and Dad. Then next to Dad I put the issues and I said, \u201cWe want Dad to draw the line of separation between those behaviors and himself. But if he won\u2019t, then what God says to do is we have to be separated from those behaviors, so we\u2019re going to have to separate from Dad. But he\u2019s free to choose. If he doesn\u2019t want to get rid of those behaviors, then we\u2019re going to have to separate.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: That\u2019s not easy.<\/p>\n<p>Laurel: \u201cWe\u2019ll just pray for Dad and\u2014\"<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Did they say anything? I\u2019m guessing they\u2019re seeing the same things. It isn\u2019t like they\u2019re blind to what Dad\u2019s doing.<\/p>\n<p>Laurel: They had seen it for years. They had seen me confront for years, and things didn\u2019t change. They knew exactly what was going on. I mean they were on board with it even though there were lots of tears. It was hard, but I can tell you being a single parent, we got so close to God, and we got so close to each other.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: It\u2019s so hard as a mom, a wife, husband, dad, whatever situation it is to make that call. Because they want to stay and they think, \u201cHe\u2019ll turn; she\u2019ll turn.\u201d But at some point, you realize \u201cWe\u2019ve given them a choice and they don\u2019t.\u201d You made that hard call. It\u2019s the best thing you did, right?<\/p>\n<p>Laurel: Right. I would also say, I meet with a lot of clients that are confused. They feel like they are choosing themselves over that narcissistic person. But you are actually loving that narcissistic person God\u2019s way and you\u2019re choosing what\u2019s in the best interest of them. They need their Lord and Savior and you pulling back your presence and you letting them\u2014letting God have that person, that is the most loving thing you can do for the parent.<\/p>\n<p>That\u2019s an important thing to explain to the children, too; like, \u201cI\u2019m not doing this for myself; we\u2019re doing this for everybody. We\u2019re doing it for you; we\u2019re doing it for Daddy; we\u2019re doing it for\u2014\"<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, you\u2019re choosing to protect your kids. That\u2019s a big\u2014let me ask this: If you don\u2019t make that choice, what does that do to your kids if you stay and they are raised by a parent who is not co-parenting but counter-parenting with their mom or dad and is a controlling fool, what\u2019s that going to do to your kids long term?<\/p>\n<p>Laurel: It sets them up for vulnerability to either become narcissistic themselves, because they see the power that that narcissistic person has and they see the destruction that the non-narcissistic parent is living in, and they don\u2019t want to choose that, so they\u2019ll choose that narcissistic person\u2019s lifestyle.<\/p>\n<p>Or they go the other way, and they become extremely co-dependent, and they don\u2019t form their identity. That\u2019s why I encourage all parents, no matter what\u2019s going on with their children, I think understanding that God has a plan for each of your children and our job, as parents, is to help children understand that plan. So, you have to notice who God created in the person of your child. You have to nurture that and then you have to respect that and not try to make them a clone of yourself or something you want them to be.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: You are a licensed therapist. So, you have that part of you that knows the consequences of what could happen, and I\u2019m guessing you\u2019re trying to protect your kids, and even form that God-given identity in them, as they\u2019re going through it. How did you do that?<\/p>\n<p>Laurel: A lot of talks, a lot of age-appropriate honesty, a lot of proactive teaching. Something I did with my boys, and I did with tons of child and adolescent clients was a \u201cWho am I\u201d activity.<\/p>\n<p>As they were talking, I was listening, I was writing down different things about them: their likes, their dislikes, their temperament, their strengths, and then I put on there, \u201cYou are precious; you are worthy. God has a plan for your life.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I had all these different words of who they are. I make a copy and keep it for my file, and I give it to them, and I say, \u201cDon\u2019t ever let anybody ever try to convince you otherwise. You are this person.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>If they\u2019re very gifted artistically, we can\u2019t make them into an athlete; we can\u2019t force them into certain activities. You notice that God gave them that gifting, so you notice that, you nurture it, and you respect it even if maybe you want them to be an athlete.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: You are constantly feeding them \u201cThis is who you are. This is the truth of Scripture. This is what I see,\u201d all of those things continually.<\/p>\n<p>Laurel: Right, and that neutralizes the narcissistic impact.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Your kids are older now. Do you feel like your words, your life as a mom: \u201cYou are precious,\u201d got through?<\/p>\n<p>Laurel: Yes; they were both on their different journeys.<\/p>\n<p>My oldest son, he\u2019s very passionate, loves to speak, loves to preach. He has this righteous anger. He would be the one that was trying to thwart his dad\u2019s narcissistic behavior, and he\u2019d be the one that was writing him letters and confronting him.<\/p>\n<p>My younger son was more quiet. Then when we divorced, he felt sorry for his dad because he saw me having all my friends at church, wonderful, wonderful clients that were super supportive, and then eventually remarried. But his dad was still engaging in that chaotic, crazy lifestyle, so he felt sorry.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Oh, Laurel, was that hard for you?<\/p>\n<p>Laurel: Yes, yes. That\u2019s where in the first book I talk about \u201cpick your battles,\u201d and you have to really strategize to the balance of protecting the kids and not controlling the kids. You have to really find that place.<\/p>\n<p>I would have to equip him and tell him what to do when he was over there and different things. Now that he\u2019s grown up and he has a serious girlfriend of his own, he is just now getting in touch with his righteous anger; like, \u201cI cannot believe Dad made those choices.\u201d He\u2019s a finance major, and he\u2019s like, \u201cI don\u2019t understand how Dad could make those choices financially.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: You even talked about age-appropriate honesty. That\u2019s probably a tricky balance and depending on their age what that looks like.<\/p>\n<p>Laurel: It is. I think that that is really a difficult one. Because I do\u2014I don\u2019t know if you\u2019ve ever heard that Dietrich Bonhoeffer quote that says, \u201cSilence in the face of evil is in fact evil\u201d?<\/p>\n<p>So, you don\u2019t want to be silent, and you don\u2019t want to give the impression that you support that behavior. I use the filter of the Bible. If there is activity that\u2019s going on that directly contradicts Scripture, then in an age-appropriate way we have to let that child know what it is, because we don\u2019t want him or her thinking that that\u2019s acceptable behavior, what God wants for anybody.<\/p>\n<p>Age-appropriate honesty is difficult where there is narcissism involved.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: You were a therapist. As a mom, were you their therapist or did you put your kids with someone else, because you know it. Is it important for kids to get help?<\/p>\n<p>Laurel: Yes, I referred them to someone else. Now, one of my big regrets is I probably brought too much therapy home. [Laughter] Like, I would bring home the Self-control Bear Game or Escape from Anger Island.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Did they say, \u201cMom, not another diagram!\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Diagrams on the walls. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Laurel: Or yes, I would do the devotions at the breakfast table while they were captive and couldn\u2019t leave. I was probably too structured because everything else was so chaotic. That was the one area of \u201cI\u2019m going to equip you.\u201d I probably over equipped them, but\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Has your first husband changed?<\/p>\n<p>Laurel: No.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: He\u2019s still the same?<\/p>\n<p>Laurel: Yes, yes so\u2014<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You say that in both your books: \u201cNarcissists don\u2019t change.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Laurel: Right.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: They can, I\u2019m guessing.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014except for the power of God.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: The power of God can do anything, but often you don\u2019t see that happen.<\/p>\n<p>Laurel: Right. As a matter of fact, I had his prior girlfriend reaching out to me. She\u2019s just emotionally battered and \u201cHow can you do this?\u201d He just doesn\u2019t change. It\u2019s so sad. He\u2019s very likeable; he has a great personality. Everybody likes him. But he just will not relinquish these behaviors.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: When you look back, because now your kids are older and you can look back with some perspective on the life you lived, where do you see God?<\/p>\n<p>Laurel: \u201cWhere was God?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Where was God in your marriage, in your husband being a fool, in your divorce, in your remarriage and your divorce and then now you\u2019re in a blended family with five kids and grandkids? Do you have a perspective like you look back and say, \u201cOh, here\u2019s where I saw God in this whole thing\u201d?<\/p>\n<p>Laurel: It\u2019s amazing. I am a very, very shy, quiet person, so the mere fact that I\u2019m even sitting here\u2014[Laughter]\u2014or that I\u2019ve gotten up and spoken to 200 people, it\u2019s just God is my everything, God is my lifeline.<\/p>\n<p>I would literally sleep with my Bible, my old NIV Bible that\u2019s all battered on my ex-husband\u2019s pillow to remind me that God is there. I am not alone. His promises are true. He was faithful when a door closed. An example is I really wanted a house in the neighborhood where my ex-husband had lived. He said he was taking the house. I had to get out, which a lot of them do. He makes the money, so \u201cYou want to leave? Leave, but you\u2019re not getting money and you\u2019re not getting the house.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I kept driving around for months looking for a house to rent in that neighborhood. Nothing opened up, but then all of a sudden, in the neighborhood right next to my boy\u2019s school, a great house opened up where they could walk to school. God knew better. I thought I wanted this, but God gave them a better gift. I could still work and see clients after school, and they had a safe way home from school.<\/p>\n<p>God is so faithful. All His promises are really true. We might not see where His provision and His help is going to come from, but it is there.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: It\u2019s interesting, in my mind when I heard you say you put your Bible where your ex-husband\u2019s pillow was, it\u2019s like you replaced him with God.<\/p>\n<p>Laurel: Um hmm.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Which you always had, but it was just a visual to say, \u201cI\u2019m not going to submit to this man who is going to lead me to sin; I\u2019m going to submit to The Man.\u201d Again, I\u2019m putting words in your mouth. But what a visual to say, \u2014<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2014for any of us.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2014 \u201cThis is my rock; this is my hope. He\u2019s right here.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Laurel: Absolutely, I think that fear of Him not providing keeps a lot of people in abusive circumstances though. I don\u2019t know what kept your mom stuck, but I meet with a lot of people who they don\u2019t trust they\u2019ll be okay financially and they don\u2019t trust that their kids are going to be okay.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Right.<\/p>\n<p>Laurel: That\u2019s why I\u2019m very thankful for Matthew 18:15-17, because we\u2019ve got to get more eyes on it if\u2014I walked through how to teach children that Scripture; like, \u201cPlease stop, Mommy,\u201d or \u201cPlease stop, Daddy.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Ann: You should read that Scripture to close it.<\/p>\n<p>Laurel: Even our educational system uses that, right? So, if somebody is bullying you, you tell them to stop. If they don\u2019t listen, you get a teacher. You go get somebody else. If [they] still won\u2019t listen, then the principal gets involved. If that bully still won\u2019t listen, he gets expelled.<\/p>\n<p>So, Matthew 18:15-17, is being used in the school system, and we don\u2019t even give God the credit for that.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, I\u2019ll read it. It says, \u201cIf your brother sins against you,\u201d\u2014by the way this is Jesus speaking:<\/p>\n<p>If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. [Matthew 18:15-17 ESV]<\/p>\n<p>Laurel: Which means separation, right? God truly has all the answers. If you can just get to that point of believing that\u2014that\u2019s what helped me was \u201cOkay, it feels wrong to set boundaries, but this is what God says to do, and I\u2019m going to trust it.\u201d Then the abuse stops.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: That\u2019s so good.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: It\u2019s the most loving thing a person can do. It doesn\u2019t feel like it at times, but even as parents with our kids we have to set boundaries. Man, if you\u2019re in a marriage situation where you realize, \u201cI\u2019m married to a fool,\u201d there\u2019s got to be boundaries. It\u2019s going to impact your, not only your home, but your legacy. It\u2019s going to impact your kids\u2019 kids\u2019 kids. It doesn't stop.<\/p>\n<p>Laurel: Yes; absolutely.<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: Hi, I\u2019m Shelby Abbott. You\u2019ve been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson with Laurel Slade-Waggoner on FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>Boundaries and sometimes separation means it\u2019s one of the most loving things we can do\u2014Wow!\u2014not only for ourselves, but for our children and our children\u2019s children. I love that Dave unpacks Scripture there at the end. Powerful stuff today from Laurel Slade-Waggoner.<\/p>\n<p>She\u2019s actually written a book called Don't Let Their Crazy Make You Crazy. You can pick up a copy of it. If you\u2019re under the control of a narcissist or you know someone who is under the control of a narcissist, just head over to FamilyLifeToday.com, and you can pick up your copy there.<\/p>\n<p>While you are there, we wanted to let you know that Nana Dolce who was a guest earlier this week on FamilyLife Today has written a book called The Seed of the Woman: 30 Narratives that Point to Jesus. That book by Nana is going to be our thanks to you when you partner financially with us at FamilyLifeToday.com.<\/p>\n<p>When you do that, you can help more families hear more conversations like the one you just heard today. Again, you can partner online at FamilyLifeToday.com, or you can give us a call at 800-358-6329. Now when you give, it could be a one-time gift or a recurring monthly gift. Again, the number is 800-\u201cF\u201d as in family, \u201cL\u201d as in life, and then the word, \u201cTODAY.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Now speaking of narcissism, tomorrow on FamilyLife Today, we\u2019re going to talk about narcissism in blended families with Ron Deal. Our very own Ron Deal will be here with Dave and Ann Wilson. We hope you\u2019ll join us.<\/p>\n<p>On behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Shelby Abbott. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry.<br \/>\nHelping you pursue the relationships that matter most.<\/p>\n<p>We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?<\/p>\n<p>Copyright \u00a9 2023 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.<\/p>\n<p>www.FamilyLife<\/p>\n","theme_header_position":"Sticky","post_header_is_sticky":"default","is_header_overlay":"0"},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/280565","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/47000"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=280565"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/280866"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=280565"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=280565"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=280565"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=280565"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=280565"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=280565"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}