{"id":280459,"date":"2023-08-25T09:15:00","date_gmt":"2023-08-25T13:15:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/leaving-church-whats-happening-what-it-means-for-parents\/"},"modified":"2025-04-23T13:51:57","modified_gmt":"2025-04-23T17:51:57","slug":"leaving-church-whats-happening-what-it-means-for-parents","status":"publish","type":"podcast","link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/leaving-church-whats-happening-what-it-means-for-parents\/","title":{"rendered":"Leaving Church: What\u2019s Happening &#038; What it Means for Parents"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>Why are people leaving church? And with what we know\u2014what could parents do differently? Jim Davis, author of The Great Dechurching, and church planter Michael Aitcheson offer ideas for shaping kids who want to stay.<\/p>\n<blockquote>\n<p><em fetchpriority=\"high\"><strong>If you\u2019re between the ages of, I think it\u2019s 57 and 74, somewhere in there, if you\u2019re between those ages you\u2019re a part of the most individualistic generation that has ever lived. And you\u2019ve experienced the seat of power, likely as a Christian, in way that Christians historically and even today in other parts of the world don\u2019t experience. The norm for God\u2019s people, the early church and the Roman Empire, the norm for God\u2019s church is to live in exile. &#8212; Jim Davis<\/strong><\/em><\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Why are people leaving church? And with what we know\u2014what could parents do differently? Jim Davis, author of The Great Dechurching, and church planter Michael Aitcheson offer ideas for shaping kids who want to stay. If you\u2019re between the ages of, I th&#8230;<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":47000,"featured_media":280866,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_seopress_robots_primary_cat":"","_seopress_titles_title":"","_seopress_titles_desc":"","_seopress_robots_index":"","inline_featured_image":false,"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","episode_type":"audio","audio_file":"https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/1e239696-c9a7-4c2a-b619-b154011df29a\/audio.mp3","cover_image":"","cover_image_id":"","duration":"00:26:33","filesize":"24.34M","filesize_raw":"","date_recorded":"2023-08-25 09:15:00","explicit":"","block":""},"categories":[],"tags":[2265],"podcast_series":[8667],"cwp_profile":[3357,9883],"series":[2101],"class_list":["post-280459","podcast","type-podcast","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","tag-leaving-church","podcast_series-the-great-dechurching-whos-leaving-why-are-they-going","cwp_profile-jim-davis","cwp_profile-michael-aitcheson","series-familylife-today"],"acf":[],"episode_featured_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2024\/04\/image-scaled.jpg?w=1024","episode_player_image":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/1001\/2023\/02\/image-scaled.jpg","download_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-download\/280459\/leaving-church-whats-happening-what-it-means-for-parents","player_link":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast-player\/280459\/leaving-church-whats-happening-what-it-means-for-parents","audio_player":null,"episode_data":{"playerMode":"light","subscribeUrls":{"apple_podcasts":{"key":"apple_podcasts","url":"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303?mt=2&app=podcast","label":"Apple Podcasts","class":"apple_podcasts","icon":"apple-podcasts.png"},"google_podcasts":{"key":"google_podcasts","url":"","label":"Google Podcasts","class":"google_podcasts","icon":"google-podcasts.png"},"spotify":{"key":"spotify","url":"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm","label":"Spotify","class":"spotify","icon":"spotify.png"},"youtube":{"key":"youtube","url":"","label":"YouTube","class":"youtube","icon":"youtube.png"}},"rssFeedUrl":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/feed\/podcast\/familylife-today","embedCode":"<blockquote class=\"wp-embedded-content\" data-secret=\"CMERvgSy9Y\"><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/leaving-church-whats-happening-what-it-means-for-parents\/\">Leaving Church: What\u2019s Happening &#038; What it Means for Parents<\/a><\/blockquote><iframe sandbox=\"allow-scripts\" security=\"restricted\" src=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/familylife-today\/leaving-church-whats-happening-what-it-means-for-parents\/embed\/#?secret=CMERvgSy9Y\" width=\"500\" height=\"350\" title=\"&#8220;Leaving Church: What\u2019s Happening &#038; What it Means for Parents&#8221; &#8212; FamilyLife\u00ae - A Cru Ministry\" data-secret=\"CMERvgSy9Y\" frameborder=\"0\" marginwidth=\"0\" marginheight=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" class=\"wp-embedded-content\"><\/iframe><script>\n\/*! This file is auto-generated *\/\n!function(d,l){\"use strict\";l.querySelector&&d.addEventListener&&\"undefined\"!=typeof URL&&(d.wp=d.wp||{},d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage||(d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage=function(e){var t=e.data;if((t||t.secret||t.message||t.value)&&!\/[^a-zA-Z0-9]\/.test(t.secret)){for(var s,r,n,a=l.querySelectorAll('iframe[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),o=l.querySelectorAll('blockquote[data-secret=\"'+t.secret+'\"]'),c=new RegExp(\"^https?:$\",\"i\"),i=0;i<o.length;i++)o[i].style.display=\"none\";for(i=0;i<a.length;i++)s=a[i],e.source===s.contentWindow&&(s.removeAttribute(\"style\"),\"height\"===t.message?(1e3<(r=parseInt(t.value,10))?r=1e3:~~r<200&&(r=200),s.height=r):\"link\"===t.message&&(r=new URL(s.getAttribute(\"src\")),n=new URL(t.value),c.test(n.protocol))&&n.host===r.host&&l.activeElement===s&&(d.top.location.href=t.value))}},d.addEventListener(\"message\",d.wp.receiveEmbedMessage,!1),l.addEventListener(\"DOMContentLoaded\",function(){for(var e,t,s=l.querySelectorAll(\"iframe.wp-embedded-content\"),r=0;r<s.length;r++)(t=(e=s[r]).getAttribute(\"data-secret\"))||(t=Math.random().toString(36).substring(2,12),e.src+=\"#?secret=\"+t,e.setAttribute(\"data-secret\",t)),e.contentWindow.postMessage({message:\"ready\",secret:t},\"*\")},!1)))}(window,document);\n\/\/# sourceURL=https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-includes\/js\/wp-embed.min.js\n<\/script>\n"},"spectra_custom_meta":{"secondline_imported_guid":["MS-012676"],"audio_file":["https:\/\/traffic.omny.fm\/d\/clips\/cbd16f10-ac60-4f09-b4df-b15400ce35aa\/33aaac7e-3581-4e21-a3df-b154011ba58c\/1e239696-c9a7-4c2a-b619-b154011df29a\/audio.mp3"],"duration":["00:26:33"],"filesize":["24.34M"],"_thumbnail_id":["280866"],"show_notes":["<ul>\n<li>Hear more from Jim Davis on his <a href=\"https:\/\/www.thegospelcoalition.org\/podcasts\/as-in-heaven\/\">podcast<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>And grab Jim's book, \"<a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product\/set-adrift-deconstructing-what-you-believe-without-sinking-your-faith\">The Great Dechurching<\/a>\" in our shop.<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/guest\/john-marriott\/\">Intrigued by today's episode? Catch more on deconversion and deconstruction in FamilyLife Today episodes with Dr. John Marriott.<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/Products.aspx?categoryid=130\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Find more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<\/li>\n<li>Help others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Check out all the FamilyLife podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n"],"transcript_url":["https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2023-08-25.pdf"],"transcript_content":["<p>FamilyLife Today\u00ae National Radio Version (time edited) Transcript<\/p>\n<p>References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete.<\/p>\n<p>Leaving Church What's Happening &amp;amp; What it Means for Parents<\/p>\n<p>Guests:Jim Davis and Michael Aitcheson<\/p>\n<p>From the series:The Great Dechurching: Who\u2019s Leaving, Why Are They Going, and What Will it Take to Bring Them Back? (Day 3 of 3)<\/p>\n<p>Air date:August 25, 2023<\/p>\n<p>Jim: If you\u2019re between the ages of, I think it\u2019s 57 and 74, somewhere in there, if you\u2019re between those ages you\u2019re a part of the most individualistic generation that has ever lived. And you\u2019ve experienced the seat of power, likely as a Christian, in way that Christians historically and even today in other parts of the world don\u2019t experience. The norm for God\u2019s people, the early church and the Roman Empire, the norm for God\u2019s church is to live in exile.<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I\u2019m Shelby Abbott and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com or on the FamilyLife\u00ae app.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: This is FamilyLife--<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Today!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I sat with a father a couple years ago, who as he told me the story of his oldest son, he just began weeping. Because his son had walked away from the faith that he and his wife had tried to instill in him their whole life. Man his heart was just breaking and you know that\u2019s--<\/p>\n<p>Ann: We\u2019ve talked to many families and parents that have felt like, and we\u2019ve watched them like, \u201cMan you guys are great parents. You have done a great job,\u201d and it feels like they did everything right and yet we still have kids that walk away from the faith. But as a parent it shatters our hearts.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes and we\u2019re living in a culture, we\u2019ve been talking about it the last couple days, that uh, there\u2019s epidemic numbers of our kids walking away. So we\u2019re going, we\u2019re going to wrap this whole three day conversation with Mike Aitcheson and Jim Davis back in the studio with us. They\u2019re both dads and pastors and sort of, I don\u2019t know if you\u2019re world renowned experts yet on this dechurching thing but you\u2019re soon to be.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: But you\u2019ve thought a lot about this.<\/p>\n<p>Jim: In the introduction of the book I actually have, we have a little spot where we talk about our lane. I\u2019m not a scholar. I am a pastor and a dad wanting to learn. I am a student here, and I guess, yes the more we\u2019re students of something maybe we\u2019ll have something to say. But I engage this whole conversation as a student.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes that is interesting that you know you say you\u2019re a student. Because really as we\u2019ve been listening to you guys the last couple of days it's like, \u201cWow, you guys are scholars in this area.\u201d So I love the student-learning perspective. But I\u2019m guessing, and we\u2019ve talked about this already, the dad part of you, the parent part of you is like enmeshed in the whole thing.<\/p>\n<p>Jim: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Because as you\u2019re reading and studying you\u2019ll have to apply this to your homes.<\/p>\n<p>Jim: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: So again we\u2019ve talked already but if you\u2019re me sitting with that dad who\u2019s weeping over his child walking away, what would you want to say? What do they need to know?<\/p>\n<p>Jim: I mean the first thing I think about is that I don\u2019t know that won\u2019t be me one day.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2013Hmm.<\/p>\n<p>Jim: We do our best. We apply wisdom and there\u2019s good biblical basis to apply wisdom in our parenting, but we are not our children\u2019s savior. And we are not the Holy Spirit. If there\u2019s guilt there, maybe there\u2019s\u2013I\u2019m sure when my kids are out of the house there\u2019s some things I will have wished I had done differently and I need to repent and feel the grace of Jesus Christ in that. And there are some things that I\u2019ll feel like, \u201cI did everything I knew how to do.\u201d It\u2019s not ultimately up to us because it\u2019s not a formula.<\/p>\n<p>If there is guilt, that\u2019s what Jesus is here for. So maybe you did everything\u2013in my mind you looked like a great parent. I\u2019ve learned from you. I\u2019ve people I\u201dve learned from who have kids who are not following Jesus. I mean that\u2019s one of the greatest heartaches, heart breaks I could imagine. That\u2019s why I need Jesus. Those are the kinds of things I would want to hear, I guess, the way that I\u2019m hearing your question. Those are the kinds of things I\u2019d want to tell somebody else.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I know when people ask, and they do a lot, \u201cHey, what\u2019s your best parenting piece of advice?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jim: Listen to FamilyLife radio.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes [Laughter] listen to FamilyLife radio.<\/p>\n<p>No I mean they\u2019re like, \u201cYou wrote a parenting book so what is it?\u201d You know and even the subtitle of our parenting book was The One Secret - and I would say the best piece of parenting advice I would give you is what you sort of said Jim. Pray. Because this is not a formula. You can do\u2013read all the parenting books you want. It doesn\u2019t guarantee anything. It\u2019s only God.<\/p>\n<p>Jim: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Only the gospel, the miracle of God\u2019s Holy Spirit at work in your child is going to change their life, regardless and sometimes in spite of what you do as a parent.<\/p>\n<p>But Mike I mean you\u2019ve got four daughters, how does that resonate because they\u2019re still in your home.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: How old are these girls again?<\/p>\n<p>Mike: 12, 9, 7, and 4.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: So you\u2019ve got like 6 years with your 12 year old, maybe.<\/p>\n<p>Mike: Ahhh. I\u2019m just [Laughter] it\u2019s just painful. As a matter of fact, a neighbor walked by with their six month old daughter, I was that guy that said, \u201cEnjoy her, [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2013no you weren\u2019t!<\/p>\n<p>Mike: \u2013before you know it she\u2019ll be a teenager.\u201d I can\u2019t believe I said that.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You\u2019re going to keep saying it dude, I\u2019m telling you.<\/p>\n<p>Mike: I was meeting with a mentor that I respect dearly a few days ago. What he was driving me to do was gear my attention towards their well-being. Make sure that they understand how much they matter, how significant they are, that may be your number one calling. Everything else may just fall to the wayside. That may be what God created you to do, make sure those four girls understand how much they\u2019re loved and how much Jesus loves them.<\/p>\n<p>I have done everything I can to remind them that they were created in God\u2019s image. I even tell them things boldly like, \u201cI love you, but you have a heavenly Father who loves you more.\u201d And that\u2019s right upon the cusp of me failing and having to repent of something I did wrong. Yesterday I had to put my hand upon my oldest\u2019s shoulder because we\u2019d left the house and she didn\u2019t grab her bag and I had already said, \u201cHey, does everybody have everything?\u201d We had to go back in and it frustrated me, and it bothered me all day and I said, \u201cHere we go. I\u2019ve got to humble myself in front of the kids once again.\u201d I said, \u201cI\u2019m sorry for this morning. My tone was off. I was wrong.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>She just looked at me and she said, \u201cThat\u2019s okay I forgive you. That\u2019s okay.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>What I have found is the best thing I can do to communicate to my girls the gospel and that I love them and that the cross is big enough is by demonstrating that humility before them. Not just do as I say dah, dah, dah, dah, but say, \u201cOh man, I know you hear me say this often and I tell you all to do this often, but daddy missed the mark today. And I really need your forgiveness. I\u2019m sorry.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I just continue to see the impact of repentance and then you get to dramatize just how significant the gospel is. Because when they forgive you, and they see the freedom with which you walk, because of how big the cross is, then they\u2019re freed up to own their sin right before you when they mess up later on.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I mean Jim you\u2019ve got a 15 year old right?<\/p>\n<p>Jim: I do.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: How is that hitting you?<\/p>\n<p>Jim: Yes man, I can remember when my older two were, were babies and think toddlers and I can remember thinking, in my pride and hubris, I should write a parenting book. [Laughter] That\u2019s what I thought. Fast forward to when they\u2019re just starting to hit double digits and I told my wife I don\u2019t even want to give the parenting talk at the FamilyLife Conference. I just feel so, so insufficient, which an aspect of that is good.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jim: I realize now, we\u2019re still called to do a lot of things and apply wisdom. But ultimately we\u2019re asking God through praying like you said, to open these kids\u2019 hearts. So we do what we can do and now I\u2019m in the next season of looking. We have our first college visit this summer. It\u2019s just crazy.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Speaking of college, I\u2019ve talked to many parents and I\u2019ve felt this when they start going to a secular university, which two of our sons did. There\u2019s this fear in me like, \u201cOh are they going to lose their faith now? Are they going to be pushed into and maybe they\u2019ll become dechurched and leave the faith?\u201d But some of what you guys, what you\u2019ve seen is even the data, it\u2019s different from some of the things we\u2019ve heard before that higher education, these kids do walk away.<\/p>\n<p>Jim: The data does not support that. Ryan Burge is one of the people, you know the guy who did our study, the primary person. And he\u2019s done a lot of other things on this and there are other people too. But all the data shows that the more education that a Christian has, the more likely they are to continue in their faith. Now the sociologists are beginning to ask why that data says that. But they\u2019re not asking that the data says that.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Hmm<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Which is interesting, because I think often as parents we think protect, fear based, I\u2019ve got to keep them in this little cocoon, whether it be church, school, and especially higher education, because if I let them out - that\u2019s what\u2019s going to happen and that research says that\u2019s a false belief.<\/p>\n<p>Jim: Well often those who are, I mean this is all - we all know this, if they\u2019re not prepared to go into the world, if we\u2019ve hidden them from the world, they\u2019re not going to know how to interact in the world.<\/p>\n<p>I can remember I went to the \u2018Princeton of the Panhandle\u2019, Florida State. [Laughter] I can remember as a freshman in orientation some parent asked, \u201cWhat can I do to make sure my kid succeeds at Florida State?\u201d And the orientation director said, \u201cWell if you hadn\u2019t done it already, you can\u2019t do it.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>It was like this\u2013but I don\u2019t want to undermine like the importance of the early years. But personally having been through this research and these studies and most of us gone to Division 1 public schools, I\u2019m not scared of it. You can find ways to follow Jesus, you can find trouble. It\u2019s not like you go in and there\u2019s only trouble.<\/p>\n<p>Our study also shows that the Christian student\u2019s going to college, if they\u2019re involved in a church and a campus ministry, they are three times more likely to continue in their faith. Now I have to say there\u2019s what\u2019s called selection bias there, because those who are already more likely to continue in their faith are going to opt into those two things, but even so if a student is involved in a local church and Campus Crusade [Cru], the statistics say, \u201cthat is a good thing in the college years.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Well one of the things you write about, which I love to hear you discuss is we need to, and I\u2019m guessing as a family and as a church, as a community, embrace \u201cwe\u2019re exiles. We live as exiles.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jim: Yes<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And some of what we\u2019re talking about right now relates to that. Because we\u2019re living in a world that thinks different than us, lives different than us, sort of thinks we\u2019re crazy -- so we\u2019re trying to raise our kids.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: So it\u2019s sort of like we\u2019re in Babylon, like Daniel.<\/p>\n<p>Jim: This is hard because we don\u2019t experience that at all. So in our context if you\u2019re between the ages of, I think it\u2019s 57 and 74 somewhere in there, if you\u2019re between those ages you\u2019re a part of the most individualistic generation that has ever lived. And you\u2019ve experienced the seat of power, likely as a Christian in a way that Christians historically and even today in other parts of the world don\u2019t experience. If you go to the global East, some parts of the global South, you talk about Babylon. You could also go back to Abraham. I mean the norm for God\u2019s people, the early church and the Roman Empire, the norm for God\u2019s church is to live in exile.<\/p>\n<p>It doesn\u2019t mean that we have no influence but it means that we exercise that influence from the margins, that would be the norm, not the seat of power. And I would go so far, this might be a little bit controversial, I would go so far as to say when Christians have the seat of power that has not always meant that things are going to go well. I\u2019m not saying it\u2019s comfortable, but I\u2019m saying that\u2019s the norm for God\u2019s people and that there are blessings in it.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I remember hearing an interview with a woman from Iraq. She was born there, Muslim, converted to Christianity, loved Jesus, was being persecuted every day for her faith, was risking her life everyday to even name the name of Jesus. Her family wanted to kill her. She said the goal of every believer in the Middle East was to get to America to be free, to be able to exercise your belief in a way and your faith. And she told her husband after living here two years in the United States, \u201cI\u2019ve fallen asleep. I\u2019ve fallen asleep. I feel like I need to go back.\u201d And that\u2019s the danger of living in, as you said, that seat of power in our faith.<\/p>\n<p>Jim: But if you\u2019ve only known that, so she had the opposite. But if we\u2019ve only known that, that\u2019s a scary future to walk into.<\/p>\n<p>I made the comment a few years back, and I did not think, I did not anticipate to be controversial, or I would have had a more of a pastoral moment in it. But I said, \u201cI bet if I\u2019m able, God willing, to be at Orlando Grace Church for the next 20 years, a large part of my ministry is going to be walking with white Christians through the loss of power in our society.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I think that\u2019s the cultural moment we\u2019re in and I also think that\u2019s the norm for God\u2019s people and that there are blessings in it. You all have somebody on the executive team here, Greg Lillestrand, who told me a story years ago, he was behind the Iron Curtain, his team couldn\u2019t find food so they split up, and he was with a Christian, he was in part of - I think I remember what it was but I don\u2019t want to say the wrong country, so I won\u2019t say it. But finally after searching for all day they found a sack of potatoes to be able to feed their team. Greg looked at this Christian in this country and said, \u201cHow do you do it? How do you follow Jesus when you have no authority or power or freedom or any of these things?\u201d This Christian from behind the Iron Curtain looked at back at Greg and said, \u201cMe? How do you do it? Jesus is all I have every day. You have all these other things that you [Laughter] can run to for comfort and entertainment and satisfaction.\u201d And so I think that really supports your story.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Now here is the question. How do we bring that nature, that exilic nature, we\u2019re exiles, into our homes?<\/p>\n<p>Jim: Well I think we need to start with what are the positives of living as exiles for us, because we don\u2019t know that for us and don\u2019t believe it for our own spiritual lives.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You\u2019re telling me there\u2019s positives? Because everybody\u2019s saying, \u201cNo there aren\u2019t,\u201d but there are.<\/p>\n<p>Jim: I mean if you go back there you can see exile all over the Bible. But in the book we walk through Acts chapter 2 and we get to see a picture of the early church living in exile and there are blessings in the way, because they are sent out of Jerusalem through persecution, the gospel advances in ways that it wouldn\u2019t otherwise.<\/p>\n<p>We see benefits like these Jewish people from Jerusalem, who had been at the seat of power, their idols of power are confronted in their exile. And then their identity is formed more in Christ not a coincidence I don\u2019t think. This is the first place they were called Christians because in exile we need the Lord more as we\u2019ve been talking about, we depend on the Lord more. It shows us our newer and better identity. It requires discipleship, which is a major thing that I think is lacking in the church today. As we entertain people, and we just want to draw people in, but where is the real deep discipleship? In exile we know I have to disciple these kids. We have to have discipleship in our church. So it causes us to think about discipleship differently.<\/p>\n<p>I remember somebody interviewing Tim Keller and asking, I think it was he and Cathy, about what are the best parenting tactics you know that you have for us? They both said one of the best things was Tim going to breakfast once a week with one of their boys. That was a part of their discipleship process.<\/p>\n<p>More than anything, I think the fuel to living as an exile is knowing that\u2019s exactly what Jesus did to reach us. He left the comfort and the power and the glory of heaven to come here as an exile, taking on flesh. He is literally God and He has no place to lay His head, no place to call home in His earthly ministry. He\u2019s exiled onto the cross, not just to die a horrible death, but to receive the wrath of God that our sin deserves. There has never been a greater exile than Jesus and you look at the good that came from Him embracing exile for us. That can be the fuel to understand truly exile is the design. This world is not our home. This is not\u2013our citizenship is not here and the more that we feel that I\u2019m convinced we\u2019ll be good for us and for our churches and our families.<\/p>\n<p>Mike: He was exiled from His home, so that we would inherit the home He had prepared for us. Exile helps set us free from longings that are misplaced for this life. The world as it is now is not our final resting place. I think of Peter opening up to the exiles. Then he precedes to talk about the inheritance that we have that\u2019s imperishable, undefiled, stored up for us in heaven.<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s principally stored up and it\u2019s actually stored up, kept hidden in Christ, and when Christ returns who is our life, then we\u2019ll be with Him. We will inherit that for which we truly long and the home that can only truly satisfy us. We have, I think it was [name not recognized] who about our captivity to certain things of this life, whether it\u2019s politics, whether it\u2019s sports, whether it\u2019s the American dream. All things that are good but we cling too tightly to this life and exile helps remind us that something better exists.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: This is inspiring me in some way, because I\u2019m thinking one of the ways to live as an exile, and I\u2019m not saying we did this right. Actually Ann did this really good. She modeled this is take risks as a family, and I\u2019m thinking primarily in the area of evangelism, in the area of loving your neighbor. I mean literally your next door neighbor.<\/p>\n<p>Take a risk, that\u2019s sort of like living as an exile. I\u2019m going to go over and share something with somebody. I know they don\u2019t believe this.<\/p>\n<p>That\u2019s scary. That\u2019s awkward. It encourages your own faith. I\u2019ve never once gone out to share my faith - like intentionally like been sent out, and come back depressed. I come back\u2013even if they say, \u201cI don\u2019t believe any of this. You\u2019re crazy.\u201d I come back energized.<\/p>\n<p>My first ever Cru meeting in college, I\u2019d just come to Christ. I go to they call it Prime Time, and my discipler, I had a guy disciple me, who wasn\u2019t an athlete who said, \u201cGod has called me to minister to athletes,\u201d and I literally under my breath laughed like, \u201cThis dude will never minister to athletes.\u201d [Laughter] He reached like 50 of my teammates.<\/p>\n<p>But long story short, Bill says meet me Tuesday night. It\u2019s called Prime Time. I go to this thing. I sit in the back and never\u2013I\u2019m a new Christian. I never grew up in a church, I never had been to one of these things. They sing some songs, which I didn\u2019t even know what they were. A guy gets up, you won\u2019t believe this, first time ever at a Christian campus meeting. He says, \u201cHere\u2019s what we\u2019re doing tonight. We\u2019re pairing up in twos and going to the campus and sharing the gospel.\u201d [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>He goes, \u201cPair up with people and then we\u2019ll come back in an hour and share stories,\u201d and I literally exit. [Laughter] I\u2019m like, \u201cI\u2019m out.\u201d I walk out of this dormitory lobby and I\u2019m outside out the building heading back to my dorm room. I\u2019m like, \u201cI\u2019m not doing this. This is weird,\u201d and Bill goes, \u201cHey Dave, Dave, Dave,\u201d you know he\u2019s the only guy I knew. He goes, \u201cLet\u2019s go,\u201d I go, \u201cUh Bill, this isn\u2019t what I do.\u201d He goes, \u201cNo, I\u2019ll do it. You just watch. You pray and watch.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Long story short, first guy we talk to, some kid, some freshman in a room and Bill\u2019s sharing the gospel and I\u2019m sitting over there watching. I\u2019ve never done this in my life and I\u2019ll never forget this. This guy looks over at me sitting on this other bed and says, \u201cHey, I know you,\u201d and I go, \u201cNo, we\u2019ve never met.\u201d \u201cHey, aren\u2019t you the quarterback of our football team? [Laughter] Aren\u2019t you Dave Wilson?\u201d I literally go, \u201cNo, not me.\u201d [Laughter] I lied because that\u2019s where I was. I did not want to be identified with Christ. I was like--<\/p>\n<p>Jim: \u2013You were, you were one of those with Jesus when the rooster crows.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2013exactly. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Bill, exactly. Bill just laughed. He thinks I\u2019m joking and then he goes, \u201cOh yes that\u2019s Dave the quarterback.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>That\u2019s where I was. I\u2019ll never forget we came back, everybody starts sharing these stories, my faith starts a journey. There is something about as a mom or dad saying, \u201cKids, let\u2019s go across the street, let\u2019s invite our neighbors over. It\u2019s all about this. Let\u2019s love them. Let\u2019s share the gospel. Maybe there\u2019s going to be an opportunity we can share our faith.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Don\u2019t you think there\u2019s something to that, to breathing life into your family because you\u2019re taking risks as an exile in a culture that doesn\u2019t agree with what you believe but you\u2019re going to be awkward, uncomfortable, but you\u2019re going to go there and that\u2019s going to breathe life into your family. Am I right?<\/p>\n<p>Jim: I think you\u2019re 100 percent right.<\/p>\n<p>Mike: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jim: It makes me think when God spoke to Jeremiah about a people that were going to be in exile in Babylon. He says to the exiles through Jeremiah, \u201cSeek the welfare of the city where I\u2019ve sent you into exile.\u201d So God is saying I sent you into exile, seek the welfare of that city while you\u2019re there. Pray to the Lord on its behalf for in its welfare you will find your welfare.<\/p>\n<p>So we are supposed to be for the place we\u2019re in. It\u2019s hard. I\u2019m thankful that I can vote to make sure certain things happen and don\u2019t happen, but whether it\u2019s going our way or not we are here, sent as Christians for the welfare of where we are. There is no greater welfare than knowing Christ.<\/p>\n<p>So you can see ways that happened in the early church and Rodney Stark\u2019s of course, famous book on The rise of Christianity, Christians were doing things like bringing sick babies in and helping people and sharing their faith along the way. So I think what you\u2019re saying has historically been true for God\u2019s people and is as true now as it ever has been.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I like that. Loving audaciously as a family with the intent of bringing the gospel to people. It\u2019s beautiful.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, how about today.<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: In your community\u2019s welfare you will find welfare. So plugging into your environment and becoming a part of the solution by loving them with the gospel is such an important part of what it means to be a follower of Christ. Love this time today.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019m Shelby Abbott and you\u2019ve been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson with Jim Davis and Michael Aitcheson on FamilyLife Today. Jim has written a book called The Great Dechurching: Who\u2019s Leaving, Why Are They Going, And What Will it Take to Bring Them Back. Super important questions that Jim addresses in this book. You can pick up a copy of that book at FamilyLifeToday.com or you can give us a call at 800-358-6329.<\/p>\n<p>And as we wind down in the month of August here, school is ramping up. Things are changing. We\u2019re transitioning from summertime into the Fall. August is such a unique time, especially for us here at FamilyLife. Because when you partner with us and give, we\u2019re going to send you FamilyLife\u2019s Art of Parenting\u00ae online video course along with a fun card game called Ferret Flush\u2122 as our thank you.<\/p>\n<p>We know that as the summer ends and the school year begins it can be tough to spend intentional time with your kids and get deeper, kind of peel back the layers and get to know them more. Well we want to help with the FamilyLife Art of Parenting online course and the fun card game Ferret Flush, where you can go deeper with your kids and have a good time around the kitchen table at the same time.<\/p>\n<p>For the rest of this month when you make your donation we\u2019re going to send you both of those resources and you can do so at FamilyLifeToday.com or give us a call at 800, \u2018F\u2019 as in family, \u2018L\u2019 as in life, and then the word TODAY. Or you can feel free to drop your donation in the mail. Our address is FamilyLife, 100 Lake Hart Drive, Orlando, Florida 32832.<\/p>\n<p>Now coming up next week Ron Deal is going to be talking to Dave and Ann Wilson along with Kara Powell and Gayla Grace about how in blended families, how do you manage value differences between the homes and how do you answer three important questions that every teenager is asking? That\u2019s next week. We hope you\u2019ll join us.<\/p>\n<p>On behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Shelby Abbott. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>FamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry.<\/p>\n<p>Helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.<\/p>\n<p>We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?<\/p>\n<p>Copyright \u00a9 2023 FamilyLife\u00ae. 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are people leaving church? And with what we know\u2014what could parents do differently? Jim Davis, author of The Great Dechurching, and church planter Michael Aitcheson offer ideas for shaping kids who want to stay. If you\u2019re between the ages of, I th...","meta_box":{"show_notes":"<ul>\n<li>Hear more from Jim Davis on his <a href=\"https:\/\/www.thegospelcoalition.org\/podcasts\/as-in-heaven\/\">podcast<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>And grab Jim's book, \"<a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/product\/set-adrift-deconstructing-what-you-believe-without-sinking-your-faith\">The Great Dechurching<\/a>\" in our shop.<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/podcast\/guest\/john-marriott\/\">Intrigued by today's episode? Catch more on deconversion and deconstruction in FamilyLife Today episodes with Dr. John Marriott.<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/shop.familylife.com\/Products.aspx?categoryid=130\">See resources from our past podcasts.<\/a><\/li>\n<li>Find more content and resources on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/app\/\">FamilyLife's app<\/a>!<\/li>\n<li>Help others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on <a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/familylife-today\/id212174303\">Apple Podcast<\/a> or <a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/0j5UaKdQOHQCuo1bt0ebEm?si=d6dfa8d2415f4750\">Spotify<\/a>.<\/li>\n<li>Check out all the FamilyLife podcasts on the <a href=\"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/familylife-podcast-network\/\">FamilyLife Podcast Network<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n","transcript_url":"https:\/\/transcript.familylife.com\/fl2023-08-25.pdf","transcript_content":"<p>FamilyLife Today\u00ae National Radio Version (time edited) Transcript<\/p>\n<p>References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete.<\/p>\n<p>Leaving Church What's Happening &amp;amp; What it Means for Parents<\/p>\n<p>Guests:Jim Davis and Michael Aitcheson<\/p>\n<p>From the series:The Great Dechurching: Who\u2019s Leaving, Why Are They Going, and What Will it Take to Bring Them Back? (Day 3 of 3)<\/p>\n<p>Air date:August 25, 2023<\/p>\n<p>Jim: If you\u2019re between the ages of, I think it\u2019s 57 and 74, somewhere in there, if you\u2019re between those ages you\u2019re a part of the most individualistic generation that has ever lived. And you\u2019ve experienced the seat of power, likely as a Christian, in way that Christians historically and even today in other parts of the world don\u2019t experience. The norm for God\u2019s people, the early church and the Roman Empire, the norm for God\u2019s church is to live in exile.<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I\u2019m Shelby Abbott and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com or on the FamilyLife\u00ae app.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: This is FamilyLife--<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Today!<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I sat with a father a couple years ago, who as he told me the story of his oldest son, he just began weeping. Because his son had walked away from the faith that he and his wife had tried to instill in him their whole life. Man his heart was just breaking and you know that\u2019s--<\/p>\n<p>Ann: We\u2019ve talked to many families and parents that have felt like, and we\u2019ve watched them like, \u201cMan you guys are great parents. You have done a great job,\u201d and it feels like they did everything right and yet we still have kids that walk away from the faith. But as a parent it shatters our hearts.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes and we\u2019re living in a culture, we\u2019ve been talking about it the last couple days, that uh, there\u2019s epidemic numbers of our kids walking away. So we\u2019re going, we\u2019re going to wrap this whole three day conversation with Mike Aitcheson and Jim Davis back in the studio with us. They\u2019re both dads and pastors and sort of, I don\u2019t know if you\u2019re world renowned experts yet on this dechurching thing but you\u2019re soon to be.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: But you\u2019ve thought a lot about this.<\/p>\n<p>Jim: In the introduction of the book I actually have, we have a little spot where we talk about our lane. I\u2019m not a scholar. I am a pastor and a dad wanting to learn. I am a student here, and I guess, yes the more we\u2019re students of something maybe we\u2019ll have something to say. But I engage this whole conversation as a student.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes that is interesting that you know you say you\u2019re a student. Because really as we\u2019ve been listening to you guys the last couple of days it's like, \u201cWow, you guys are scholars in this area.\u201d So I love the student-learning perspective. But I\u2019m guessing, and we\u2019ve talked about this already, the dad part of you, the parent part of you is like enmeshed in the whole thing.<\/p>\n<p>Jim: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Because as you\u2019re reading and studying you\u2019ll have to apply this to your homes.<\/p>\n<p>Jim: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: So again we\u2019ve talked already but if you\u2019re me sitting with that dad who\u2019s weeping over his child walking away, what would you want to say? What do they need to know?<\/p>\n<p>Jim: I mean the first thing I think about is that I don\u2019t know that won\u2019t be me one day.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2013Hmm.<\/p>\n<p>Jim: We do our best. We apply wisdom and there\u2019s good biblical basis to apply wisdom in our parenting, but we are not our children\u2019s savior. And we are not the Holy Spirit. If there\u2019s guilt there, maybe there\u2019s\u2013I\u2019m sure when my kids are out of the house there\u2019s some things I will have wished I had done differently and I need to repent and feel the grace of Jesus Christ in that. And there are some things that I\u2019ll feel like, \u201cI did everything I knew how to do.\u201d It\u2019s not ultimately up to us because it\u2019s not a formula.<\/p>\n<p>If there is guilt, that\u2019s what Jesus is here for. So maybe you did everything\u2013in my mind you looked like a great parent. I\u2019ve learned from you. I\u2019ve people I\u201dve learned from who have kids who are not following Jesus. I mean that\u2019s one of the greatest heartaches, heart breaks I could imagine. That\u2019s why I need Jesus. Those are the kinds of things I would want to hear, I guess, the way that I\u2019m hearing your question. Those are the kinds of things I\u2019d want to tell somebody else.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I know when people ask, and they do a lot, \u201cHey, what\u2019s your best parenting piece of advice?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jim: Listen to FamilyLife radio.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes [Laughter] listen to FamilyLife radio.<\/p>\n<p>No I mean they\u2019re like, \u201cYou wrote a parenting book so what is it?\u201d You know and even the subtitle of our parenting book was The One Secret - and I would say the best piece of parenting advice I would give you is what you sort of said Jim. Pray. Because this is not a formula. You can do\u2013read all the parenting books you want. It doesn\u2019t guarantee anything. It\u2019s only God.<\/p>\n<p>Jim: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Only the gospel, the miracle of God\u2019s Holy Spirit at work in your child is going to change their life, regardless and sometimes in spite of what you do as a parent.<\/p>\n<p>But Mike I mean you\u2019ve got four daughters, how does that resonate because they\u2019re still in your home.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: How old are these girls again?<\/p>\n<p>Mike: 12, 9, 7, and 4.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: So you\u2019ve got like 6 years with your 12 year old, maybe.<\/p>\n<p>Mike: Ahhh. I\u2019m just [Laughter] it\u2019s just painful. As a matter of fact, a neighbor walked by with their six month old daughter, I was that guy that said, \u201cEnjoy her, [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Ann: \u2013no you weren\u2019t!<\/p>\n<p>Mike: \u2013before you know it she\u2019ll be a teenager.\u201d I can\u2019t believe I said that.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You\u2019re going to keep saying it dude, I\u2019m telling you.<\/p>\n<p>Mike: I was meeting with a mentor that I respect dearly a few days ago. What he was driving me to do was gear my attention towards their well-being. Make sure that they understand how much they matter, how significant they are, that may be your number one calling. Everything else may just fall to the wayside. That may be what God created you to do, make sure those four girls understand how much they\u2019re loved and how much Jesus loves them.<\/p>\n<p>I have done everything I can to remind them that they were created in God\u2019s image. I even tell them things boldly like, \u201cI love you, but you have a heavenly Father who loves you more.\u201d And that\u2019s right upon the cusp of me failing and having to repent of something I did wrong. Yesterday I had to put my hand upon my oldest\u2019s shoulder because we\u2019d left the house and she didn\u2019t grab her bag and I had already said, \u201cHey, does everybody have everything?\u201d We had to go back in and it frustrated me, and it bothered me all day and I said, \u201cHere we go. I\u2019ve got to humble myself in front of the kids once again.\u201d I said, \u201cI\u2019m sorry for this morning. My tone was off. I was wrong.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>She just looked at me and she said, \u201cThat\u2019s okay I forgive you. That\u2019s okay.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>What I have found is the best thing I can do to communicate to my girls the gospel and that I love them and that the cross is big enough is by demonstrating that humility before them. Not just do as I say dah, dah, dah, dah, but say, \u201cOh man, I know you hear me say this often and I tell you all to do this often, but daddy missed the mark today. And I really need your forgiveness. I\u2019m sorry.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I just continue to see the impact of repentance and then you get to dramatize just how significant the gospel is. Because when they forgive you, and they see the freedom with which you walk, because of how big the cross is, then they\u2019re freed up to own their sin right before you when they mess up later on.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: I mean Jim you\u2019ve got a 15 year old right?<\/p>\n<p>Jim: I do.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: How is that hitting you?<\/p>\n<p>Jim: Yes man, I can remember when my older two were, were babies and think toddlers and I can remember thinking, in my pride and hubris, I should write a parenting book. [Laughter] That\u2019s what I thought. Fast forward to when they\u2019re just starting to hit double digits and I told my wife I don\u2019t even want to give the parenting talk at the FamilyLife Conference. I just feel so, so insufficient, which an aspect of that is good.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jim: I realize now, we\u2019re still called to do a lot of things and apply wisdom. But ultimately we\u2019re asking God through praying like you said, to open these kids\u2019 hearts. So we do what we can do and now I\u2019m in the next season of looking. We have our first college visit this summer. It\u2019s just crazy.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Speaking of college, I\u2019ve talked to many parents and I\u2019ve felt this when they start going to a secular university, which two of our sons did. There\u2019s this fear in me like, \u201cOh are they going to lose their faith now? Are they going to be pushed into and maybe they\u2019ll become dechurched and leave the faith?\u201d But some of what you guys, what you\u2019ve seen is even the data, it\u2019s different from some of the things we\u2019ve heard before that higher education, these kids do walk away.<\/p>\n<p>Jim: The data does not support that. Ryan Burge is one of the people, you know the guy who did our study, the primary person. And he\u2019s done a lot of other things on this and there are other people too. But all the data shows that the more education that a Christian has, the more likely they are to continue in their faith. Now the sociologists are beginning to ask why that data says that. But they\u2019re not asking that the data says that.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: Hmm<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Which is interesting, because I think often as parents we think protect, fear based, I\u2019ve got to keep them in this little cocoon, whether it be church, school, and especially higher education, because if I let them out - that\u2019s what\u2019s going to happen and that research says that\u2019s a false belief.<\/p>\n<p>Jim: Well often those who are, I mean this is all - we all know this, if they\u2019re not prepared to go into the world, if we\u2019ve hidden them from the world, they\u2019re not going to know how to interact in the world.<\/p>\n<p>I can remember I went to the \u2018Princeton of the Panhandle\u2019, Florida State. [Laughter] I can remember as a freshman in orientation some parent asked, \u201cWhat can I do to make sure my kid succeeds at Florida State?\u201d And the orientation director said, \u201cWell if you hadn\u2019t done it already, you can\u2019t do it.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>It was like this\u2013but I don\u2019t want to undermine like the importance of the early years. But personally having been through this research and these studies and most of us gone to Division 1 public schools, I\u2019m not scared of it. You can find ways to follow Jesus, you can find trouble. It\u2019s not like you go in and there\u2019s only trouble.<\/p>\n<p>Our study also shows that the Christian student\u2019s going to college, if they\u2019re involved in a church and a campus ministry, they are three times more likely to continue in their faith. Now I have to say there\u2019s what\u2019s called selection bias there, because those who are already more likely to continue in their faith are going to opt into those two things, but even so if a student is involved in a local church and Campus Crusade [Cru], the statistics say, \u201cthat is a good thing in the college years.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Well one of the things you write about, which I love to hear you discuss is we need to, and I\u2019m guessing as a family and as a church, as a community, embrace \u201cwe\u2019re exiles. We live as exiles.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Jim: Yes<\/p>\n<p>Dave: And some of what we\u2019re talking about right now relates to that. Because we\u2019re living in a world that thinks different than us, lives different than us, sort of thinks we\u2019re crazy -- so we\u2019re trying to raise our kids.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: So it\u2019s sort of like we\u2019re in Babylon, like Daniel.<\/p>\n<p>Jim: This is hard because we don\u2019t experience that at all. So in our context if you\u2019re between the ages of, I think it\u2019s 57 and 74 somewhere in there, if you\u2019re between those ages you\u2019re a part of the most individualistic generation that has ever lived. And you\u2019ve experienced the seat of power, likely as a Christian in a way that Christians historically and even today in other parts of the world don\u2019t experience. If you go to the global East, some parts of the global South, you talk about Babylon. You could also go back to Abraham. I mean the norm for God\u2019s people, the early church and the Roman Empire, the norm for God\u2019s church is to live in exile.<\/p>\n<p>It doesn\u2019t mean that we have no influence but it means that we exercise that influence from the margins, that would be the norm, not the seat of power. And I would go so far, this might be a little bit controversial, I would go so far as to say when Christians have the seat of power that has not always meant that things are going to go well. I\u2019m not saying it\u2019s comfortable, but I\u2019m saying that\u2019s the norm for God\u2019s people and that there are blessings in it.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I remember hearing an interview with a woman from Iraq. She was born there, Muslim, converted to Christianity, loved Jesus, was being persecuted every day for her faith, was risking her life everyday to even name the name of Jesus. Her family wanted to kill her. She said the goal of every believer in the Middle East was to get to America to be free, to be able to exercise your belief in a way and your faith. And she told her husband after living here two years in the United States, \u201cI\u2019ve fallen asleep. I\u2019ve fallen asleep. I feel like I need to go back.\u201d And that\u2019s the danger of living in, as you said, that seat of power in our faith.<\/p>\n<p>Jim: But if you\u2019ve only known that, so she had the opposite. But if we\u2019ve only known that, that\u2019s a scary future to walk into.<\/p>\n<p>I made the comment a few years back, and I did not think, I did not anticipate to be controversial, or I would have had a more of a pastoral moment in it. But I said, \u201cI bet if I\u2019m able, God willing, to be at Orlando Grace Church for the next 20 years, a large part of my ministry is going to be walking with white Christians through the loss of power in our society.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I think that\u2019s the cultural moment we\u2019re in and I also think that\u2019s the norm for God\u2019s people and that there are blessings in it. You all have somebody on the executive team here, Greg Lillestrand, who told me a story years ago, he was behind the Iron Curtain, his team couldn\u2019t find food so they split up, and he was with a Christian, he was in part of - I think I remember what it was but I don\u2019t want to say the wrong country, so I won\u2019t say it. But finally after searching for all day they found a sack of potatoes to be able to feed their team. Greg looked at this Christian in this country and said, \u201cHow do you do it? How do you follow Jesus when you have no authority or power or freedom or any of these things?\u201d This Christian from behind the Iron Curtain looked at back at Greg and said, \u201cMe? How do you do it? Jesus is all I have every day. You have all these other things that you [Laughter] can run to for comfort and entertainment and satisfaction.\u201d And so I think that really supports your story.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Now here is the question. How do we bring that nature, that exilic nature, we\u2019re exiles, into our homes?<\/p>\n<p>Jim: Well I think we need to start with what are the positives of living as exiles for us, because we don\u2019t know that for us and don\u2019t believe it for our own spiritual lives.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: You\u2019re telling me there\u2019s positives? Because everybody\u2019s saying, \u201cNo there aren\u2019t,\u201d but there are.<\/p>\n<p>Jim: I mean if you go back there you can see exile all over the Bible. But in the book we walk through Acts chapter 2 and we get to see a picture of the early church living in exile and there are blessings in the way, because they are sent out of Jerusalem through persecution, the gospel advances in ways that it wouldn\u2019t otherwise.<\/p>\n<p>We see benefits like these Jewish people from Jerusalem, who had been at the seat of power, their idols of power are confronted in their exile. And then their identity is formed more in Christ not a coincidence I don\u2019t think. This is the first place they were called Christians because in exile we need the Lord more as we\u2019ve been talking about, we depend on the Lord more. It shows us our newer and better identity. It requires discipleship, which is a major thing that I think is lacking in the church today. As we entertain people, and we just want to draw people in, but where is the real deep discipleship? In exile we know I have to disciple these kids. We have to have discipleship in our church. So it causes us to think about discipleship differently.<\/p>\n<p>I remember somebody interviewing Tim Keller and asking, I think it was he and Cathy, about what are the best parenting tactics you know that you have for us? They both said one of the best things was Tim going to breakfast once a week with one of their boys. That was a part of their discipleship process.<\/p>\n<p>More than anything, I think the fuel to living as an exile is knowing that\u2019s exactly what Jesus did to reach us. He left the comfort and the power and the glory of heaven to come here as an exile, taking on flesh. He is literally God and He has no place to lay His head, no place to call home in His earthly ministry. He\u2019s exiled onto the cross, not just to die a horrible death, but to receive the wrath of God that our sin deserves. There has never been a greater exile than Jesus and you look at the good that came from Him embracing exile for us. That can be the fuel to understand truly exile is the design. This world is not our home. This is not\u2013our citizenship is not here and the more that we feel that I\u2019m convinced we\u2019ll be good for us and for our churches and our families.<\/p>\n<p>Mike: He was exiled from His home, so that we would inherit the home He had prepared for us. Exile helps set us free from longings that are misplaced for this life. The world as it is now is not our final resting place. I think of Peter opening up to the exiles. Then he precedes to talk about the inheritance that we have that\u2019s imperishable, undefiled, stored up for us in heaven.<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s principally stored up and it\u2019s actually stored up, kept hidden in Christ, and when Christ returns who is our life, then we\u2019ll be with Him. We will inherit that for which we truly long and the home that can only truly satisfy us. We have, I think it was [name not recognized] who about our captivity to certain things of this life, whether it\u2019s politics, whether it\u2019s sports, whether it\u2019s the American dream. All things that are good but we cling too tightly to this life and exile helps remind us that something better exists.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: This is inspiring me in some way, because I\u2019m thinking one of the ways to live as an exile, and I\u2019m not saying we did this right. Actually Ann did this really good. She modeled this is take risks as a family, and I\u2019m thinking primarily in the area of evangelism, in the area of loving your neighbor. I mean literally your next door neighbor.<\/p>\n<p>Take a risk, that\u2019s sort of like living as an exile. I\u2019m going to go over and share something with somebody. I know they don\u2019t believe this.<\/p>\n<p>That\u2019s scary. That\u2019s awkward. It encourages your own faith. I\u2019ve never once gone out to share my faith - like intentionally like been sent out, and come back depressed. I come back\u2013even if they say, \u201cI don\u2019t believe any of this. You\u2019re crazy.\u201d I come back energized.<\/p>\n<p>My first ever Cru meeting in college, I\u2019d just come to Christ. I go to they call it Prime Time, and my discipler, I had a guy disciple me, who wasn\u2019t an athlete who said, \u201cGod has called me to minister to athletes,\u201d and I literally under my breath laughed like, \u201cThis dude will never minister to athletes.\u201d [Laughter] He reached like 50 of my teammates.<\/p>\n<p>But long story short, Bill says meet me Tuesday night. It\u2019s called Prime Time. I go to this thing. I sit in the back and never\u2013I\u2019m a new Christian. I never grew up in a church, I never had been to one of these things. They sing some songs, which I didn\u2019t even know what they were. A guy gets up, you won\u2019t believe this, first time ever at a Christian campus meeting. He says, \u201cHere\u2019s what we\u2019re doing tonight. We\u2019re pairing up in twos and going to the campus and sharing the gospel.\u201d [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>He goes, \u201cPair up with people and then we\u2019ll come back in an hour and share stories,\u201d and I literally exit. [Laughter] I\u2019m like, \u201cI\u2019m out.\u201d I walk out of this dormitory lobby and I\u2019m outside out the building heading back to my dorm room. I\u2019m like, \u201cI\u2019m not doing this. This is weird,\u201d and Bill goes, \u201cHey Dave, Dave, Dave,\u201d you know he\u2019s the only guy I knew. He goes, \u201cLet\u2019s go,\u201d I go, \u201cUh Bill, this isn\u2019t what I do.\u201d He goes, \u201cNo, I\u2019ll do it. You just watch. You pray and watch.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Long story short, first guy we talk to, some kid, some freshman in a room and Bill\u2019s sharing the gospel and I\u2019m sitting over there watching. I\u2019ve never done this in my life and I\u2019ll never forget this. This guy looks over at me sitting on this other bed and says, \u201cHey, I know you,\u201d and I go, \u201cNo, we\u2019ve never met.\u201d \u201cHey, aren\u2019t you the quarterback of our football team? [Laughter] Aren\u2019t you Dave Wilson?\u201d I literally go, \u201cNo, not me.\u201d [Laughter] I lied because that\u2019s where I was. I did not want to be identified with Christ. I was like--<\/p>\n<p>Jim: \u2013You were, you were one of those with Jesus when the rooster crows.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: \u2013exactly. [Laughter]<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Bill, exactly. Bill just laughed. He thinks I\u2019m joking and then he goes, \u201cOh yes that\u2019s Dave the quarterback.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>That\u2019s where I was. I\u2019ll never forget we came back, everybody starts sharing these stories, my faith starts a journey. There is something about as a mom or dad saying, \u201cKids, let\u2019s go across the street, let\u2019s invite our neighbors over. It\u2019s all about this. Let\u2019s love them. Let\u2019s share the gospel. Maybe there\u2019s going to be an opportunity we can share our faith.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Don\u2019t you think there\u2019s something to that, to breathing life into your family because you\u2019re taking risks as an exile in a culture that doesn\u2019t agree with what you believe but you\u2019re going to be awkward, uncomfortable, but you\u2019re going to go there and that\u2019s going to breathe life into your family. Am I right?<\/p>\n<p>Jim: I think you\u2019re 100 percent right.<\/p>\n<p>Mike: Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jim: It makes me think when God spoke to Jeremiah about a people that were going to be in exile in Babylon. He says to the exiles through Jeremiah, \u201cSeek the welfare of the city where I\u2019ve sent you into exile.\u201d So God is saying I sent you into exile, seek the welfare of that city while you\u2019re there. Pray to the Lord on its behalf for in its welfare you will find your welfare.<\/p>\n<p>So we are supposed to be for the place we\u2019re in. It\u2019s hard. I\u2019m thankful that I can vote to make sure certain things happen and don\u2019t happen, but whether it\u2019s going our way or not we are here, sent as Christians for the welfare of where we are. There is no greater welfare than knowing Christ.<\/p>\n<p>So you can see ways that happened in the early church and Rodney Stark\u2019s of course, famous book on The rise of Christianity, Christians were doing things like bringing sick babies in and helping people and sharing their faith along the way. So I think what you\u2019re saying has historically been true for God\u2019s people and is as true now as it ever has been.<\/p>\n<p>Ann: I like that. Loving audaciously as a family with the intent of bringing the gospel to people. It\u2019s beautiful.<\/p>\n<p>Dave: Yes, how about today.<\/p>\n<p>Shelby: In your community\u2019s welfare you will find welfare. So plugging into your environment and becoming a part of the solution by loving them with the gospel is such an important part of what it means to be a follower of Christ. Love this time today.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019m Shelby Abbott and you\u2019ve been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson with Jim Davis and Michael Aitcheson on FamilyLife Today. Jim has written a book called The Great Dechurching: Who\u2019s Leaving, Why Are They Going, And What Will it Take to Bring Them Back. Super important questions that Jim addresses in this book. You can pick up a copy of that book at FamilyLifeToday.com or you can give us a call at 800-358-6329.<\/p>\n<p>And as we wind down in the month of August here, school is ramping up. Things are changing. We\u2019re transitioning from summertime into the Fall. August is such a unique time, especially for us here at FamilyLife. Because when you partner with us and give, we\u2019re going to send you FamilyLife\u2019s Art of Parenting\u00ae online video course along with a fun card game called Ferret Flush\u2122 as our thank you.<\/p>\n<p>We know that as the summer ends and the school year begins it can be tough to spend intentional time with your kids and get deeper, kind of peel back the layers and get to know them more. Well we want to help with the FamilyLife Art of Parenting online course and the fun card game Ferret Flush, where you can go deeper with your kids and have a good time around the kitchen table at the same time.<\/p>\n<p>For the rest of this month when you make your donation we\u2019re going to send you both of those resources and you can do so at FamilyLifeToday.com or give us a call at 800, \u2018F\u2019 as in family, \u2018L\u2019 as in life, and then the word TODAY. Or you can feel free to drop your donation in the mail. Our address is FamilyLife, 100 Lake Hart Drive, Orlando, Florida 32832.<\/p>\n<p>Now coming up next week Ron Deal is going to be talking to Dave and Ann Wilson along with Kara Powell and Gayla Grace about how in blended families, how do you manage value differences between the homes and how do you answer three important questions that every teenager is asking? That\u2019s next week. We hope you\u2019ll join us.<\/p>\n<p>On behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I\u2019m Shelby Abbott. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.<\/p>\n<p>FamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife\u00ae, a Cru\u00ae Ministry.<\/p>\n<p>Helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.<\/p>\n<p>We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you\u2019ve benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?<\/p>\n<p>Copyright \u00a9 2023 FamilyLife\u00ae. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife<\/p>\n","theme_header_position":"Sticky","post_header_is_sticky":"default","is_header_overlay":"0"},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast\/280459","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/podcast"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/47000"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=280459"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/280866"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=280459"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=280459"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=280459"},{"taxonomy":"podcast_series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/podcast_series?post=280459"},{"taxonomy":"cwp_profile","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/cwp_profile?post=280459"},{"taxonomy":"series","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/wp-stage.familylife.com\/www\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/series?post=280459"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}